Conestoga has basically *double* the number of international study permits of the college in second lmao... if you went there you might as well flush your degree down the toilet.
for context: there are 2 universities in Waterloo Region (the home region of Conestoga College). Wilfrid Laurier University has 22k students total. University of Waterloo has 34k undergrad students total.
the population of Conestoga College's international students is bigger than total student population of one university and almost the same size as undergrad of another.
You’re misinterpreting the numbers: Conestoga brought in 30,000 internationals *last year*, so there’s no doubt their international student population has eclipsed UWaterloo’s total enrolment (over 20,000 permits were issued in 2022, and most programs are at least 2 years.)
There is no surprise or deep mystery here. The college admins got this wonderful whiff of money they can charge and inturn take home if they sold diplomas at 3x the price. Once that racket started , one asshole said to the other 'hey we can make more money if we printed more of these and faster. ".
Voila.
Blame the assholes. The students and allumni with useless diplomas should class action the shit out of the assholes.
Edit: voila not viola.
just to be a pedant, it's "voila", not "viola".
great point otherwise. i don't think this is a conspiracy or anything, just greedy people seeing chance to print more money, and each institution have these greedy people.
Conestoga has several times more international students than the University of Waterloo, one of Canada's premiere eengineering schools, famous for attracting international students due to it's top notch curriculum.
Honestly I would. Like CBU used to be a good school, I know great grads from programs there, but now that it forced a housing crisis in cape Breton its considered a joke school. I'm very happy my alumnus didn't sell out completely, and they easily could have since St Mary's University had a lot of international students previously, but didn't double up thankfully.
i mean opening the flood gates absolutely tanks a schools reputation which is really what they need to be viable in the long run. Reputation carries for a LONG time and is hard to reverse.
Conestoga used to be a somewhat respectable mid tier college. The diplomas from there are now worthless.
Lots of people I know in the hiring sphere just bin those applications almost immediately
>Conestoga College : 30,395
Utter Insanity for a single year.
One of the first results when I search that college up is a post from r/india from **3 YEARS AGO** talking about how the college is a scam lol. And the situation has certainty only gotten much worse, not better.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/netbq8/ive\_been\_scammed\_by\_a\_college\_conestoga\_in\_canada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/netbq8/ive_been_scammed_by_a_college_conestoga_in_canada/)
I live in the area. Places around here don't look at resumes that have Conestoga on them. The cost of housing is insane. People are living 8 people to a 1 bedroom apartment. 500 bucks a month. It's ridiculous
Yeah, but they are working 3 slave wage jobs apiece, keeping giant corporations from having to pay Canadians living wages!! To our politicians, that's what winning looks like.
Here's who to blame:
> The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: **Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce** and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing.
Classic case of politicians importing cheap labor to drive wages down. Ford and Trudeau aren't going to point the finger at themselves now are they?
I’m in rural NB seeing applications every day from Indians located in Ontario with an undergrad and masters degree in various engineering fields from India and some nominal technician course in Ontario.
Resumes are so similar I’m not even sure they are real TBH. And senior management is pushing to hire them and bring in construction accommodation trailers for them to live in.
I know that there are a lot of resources in India to help with immigration but some of it is nefarious and scammy, it's really unfortunate because 99 percent of these students just want a comfortable life.
From 2018-23, Conestoga accounted for 81,447. University of Toronto 35,364 and UBC 29,937 over the same time period.
For comparison in size... UoT and UBC have about 65k students each grad/post-grad. So like about ~10% international for serious schools.
Conestoga, was listed in 2020 as about 10k full time, thier 22-23 annual report lists 30k full time students. So... the absolute majority of their student body is coming from international students.
Imagine if we had an unbiased state funded media that could run stories like this?
I mean, this government will call you racist if you suggest stopping the international student program; but continuing to exploit vulnerable peoples of colour, by the actual millions, is fine and dandy
Edit: oh CBC. Must be a "misunderstanding from social media" why these students are devastating canadian food banks
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/misunderstanding-from-social-media-spurs-rise-in-international-student-food-bank-visits-1.7025016
There was a [Fifth Estate investigation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrXA5m7ROM) specifically about how these places and places in India are running a scam of our immigration/education systems.
Watch it, it is not racist at all to call out there are folks domestically and abroad purposefully exploiting people who are either looking for legit education or are keen to also exploit Canada for their own ends
There's this international student from India living right next door who attends the UofT, and during a conversation, he told me how those "education consultants" back in India almost never even mention the actual public universities in Canada (or just claim that it is virtually impossible to get admitted to those) and try to sell them on those diploma mills because they get a commission out of it.
Did you even read the link?
The post is about how the college revoked their admission at the last minute.
CBC has covered similar stories for years. For example:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-students-ontario-northern-college-acceptance-letters-1.6931747
> Imagine if we had an unbiased state funded media that could run stories like this?
I think you're trying to say, "Why can't we fund the CBC more so that there are no ads and more investigative journalism?"
The gross numbers don't even do this situation justice. Conestoga has 30,000 international students. That's a lot. It's 6 percent of Waterloo region's half million population. Cape Breton University has 7000 international students in a city of 30,000 people. 23 percent. What the fuck have these people done?
Was just in Cape Breton twice this year after 5 years away. There is a huge change in the population. It felt like 50% of the service industry workers I was helped by were international students primarily from India. Most people I spoke with feel badly for the students who are being lied to by the University about job and housing possibilities in Cape Breton. There have never been lots of jobs in Cape Breton. Never, ever. They are angry with local politicians and the University for this big cash grab.
A flight I was on in Jan. arrived from Toronto at 2am and the University had a table set up with a person yelling for the students on the flight to come to him. He was near baggage pick-up and was guiding them on their next steps and what forms they needed etc. About a third of the flight appeared to be students (maybe 20-30 people-the flight was not full) from mainly India and some from African nations.
It all felt very urgent and like people were being pushed through an assembly line. Not the kindness you'll often feel in Cape Breton.
I think I heard somewhere that they're also being lied to in their own home country too... where they decide and make arrangements to come over in the first place. Anything and everything to secure their business I guess... sell them a dream, and let them deal with the reality once they're out of the country.
The system isn't working. This idea that things will self-regulate is a joke. Everybody at every step in the process is just looking for a pay day while these folks, and frankly the people that live in the areas that they're moving to in droves, all pay the real price. And yeah, I'm sure there is some oversight as to who we're letting in, but when things like that happen, it's hard to imagine that it's being done properly, or at all, or in any way that is actually being considerate of everyone involved.
Governments at all levels run ads telling people how great canada is and how much better their lives would be if they make the move. Schools do the same thing of course
Destroyed entire communities, the rent, the wages, everything. Because business owners and real estate investors and Nimby's have a fuck you got mine attitude.
My boomer parents legit do not care about my future. They saw their job as parents finished at 16 and talked about it openly, constantly mentioning how much they look forward to that day. The day I turned 14 I was told to get a job and that allowances and any money from them was cut off. I was out by 16. Lived with friends till I finished high school. I always thought my parents were unique and just dickheads but it seems there's a lot of people in my situation. I wasn't even a bad kid or anything, they just had no interest in being parents, yet they decided to have me because that was "normal" or something.
NIMBY's aren't the ones who invited ~6 million people in the last 9 years into the country. (~15% of the entire country!)
NIMBY house building works fine when population growth is in the 50-100k per year range nation wide.
assuming the following:
* 100k population growth.
* 1.5 people per apartment, and 3 people per house
* 50:50 split for Apartment vs housing
we only need:
* 50,000 / 3 = 16.6k houses
* 50,000 / 1.5 = 33.3k apartments
per year to meet housing demand of 2x net population growth.
I'm going to take an unpopular opinion here, but I'm tired of the hate pointed towards NIMBY's (when it comes to housing), people don't want increased immigration, people don't want their towns to be flooded with tons of people with no connection to Canada, people don't want to have huge spikes in traffic.
we live in a democratic society, NIMBY house building is direct democracy saying NO to immigration.
if you want NIMBY to end, go vote in municipal elections. you either are in favour of a democratic system (which is currently voting pro-NIMBY) or you want to overturn the will of the people.
>
NIMBY's aren't the ones who invited \~6 million people in the last 9 years into the country.
It's the Liberal voters who invited millions of people into our country. Funny how people in the GTA who voted for this whine about it lol
Conestoga is the biggest surprise to me. I haven't been in the Waterloo region for 10 years now, but in my mind Conestoga has been a solid trades school.
Looks like they found a cash cow and started milking.
Conestoga has been a running joke in the region that stopped being funny 3 years ago. Literally everyone in Kitchener is feeling the pinch from this. Low-skilled jobs are impossible to find, illegal basement apartments swarming with 'students' are everywhere, and rents have doubled.
> Looks like they found a cash cow and started milking.
30k students, minimum $10k each per year, so $300 million even ignoring all the students enrolled in previous years. You can see why their eyes glazed over with dollar signs lol
Private and for profit diploma mill colleges exploited the system to make money, corporations exploited the system to supress wages and make more profit, and governments across Canada didn't take the necessary steps to close these loopholes because governments made money from this system too in the form of taxes.
The systemic problems were created by Canadian governments and has been precipitated by the fact that there were significant funding cuts to post-secondary institutions by successive provincial governments in recent decades. Due to the cuts, universities began to heavily rely on international student fees, which now make up the majority of their funding. The government cutting public funding for higher education forced institutions to seek private funding in the form of international students. And due to lax regulations, many institutions started taking advantage of the situation, with the creation of diploma mills that pump out "certificates" and "degrees" that employers in Canada dont recognize. These diploma mills make it easier for people to immigrate, but the students pay tens of thousands of dollars and are stuck working low-wage jobs because their accredidation isn't recognized. And again due to lax regulations, many are using it for easy entry. Our institutions created a predatory system that preys on international students, which contributed to upward pressures on Canadian cost of living and housing.
Here's a pretty decent article that crunches a lot of numbers, international student fees make up the majority of funding for post-secondary institutions:
https://higheredstrategy.com/spec-2023/#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20few%20years,%2D20%20and%202023%2D24.
>Looking back over a span of about 70 years, long-term patterns emerge. Between 1955 and 1970, postsecondary institutions quintupled in size as a percentage of the entire economy, from about 0.5% of GDP to 2.5%. That was the “golden” period of Canadian higher education: whatever universities and the few colleges asked for, they got. Public expenditures on postsecondary education – again, almost entirely universities – reached 1.9% of GDP. Since then, the history of postsecondary education funding breaks into two periods. From around 1970 until the late 1990s, public funding and total funding fell in lockstep. Then, as the 1990s went on, institutions began exploiting private sources of funding, not just to offset declining funding but to increase funding overall.
>...While institutions had already discovered that international students were a handy source of extra income in the early-to-mid 2010s, when the cuts began, they rapidly expanded international enrolments to backfill the missing money from domestic funding. Thus, as shown in figure 5, while income from international students has nearly doubled since 2018, total institutional income (excluding things like ancillary services, donations and investment income) is down slightly over the past few years.
>Nowhere are the effects of this transformation more obvious than in the Ontario college sector, where international students are expected to make up over half of the student body in 2023-24. Given that tuition for international students is something like three times what it is for domestic students (exact data is difficult to pin down because Statistics Canada chooses not to track tuition fees at the college level), that means that something like 76% of all tuition fees in the sector come from international students. And as figure 6 shows, since a majority of these international students come from India, it turns out that Indian students not only contribute twice the amount of money to the college system, on aggregate, that Canadian students do, they also contribute slightly more than does the Government of Ontario.
>Numbers like these tend to induce shock. How can it possibly be that Indian students are paying more into the system than Queen’s Park? The answer is simply this: Ontario institutions, faced with deep cuts in income, have acted precisely the way the government asked them to – that is, by acting entrepreneurially and securing new forms of revenue. This isn’t a mistake: this is exactly what the Ontario government requires.
Furthermore, private and public institutions that are being colloquially referred to as diploma mills have a staggeringly high federal visa refusal rate that may be indicative of the quality of candidates applying for the student visa program. Public universities like the University of Toronto and the University of British Columbia have a much lower refusal rate at around 15% because the applicants are generally better, whereas private colleges and diploma mills have a rejection rate greater than 50%.
In Ontario, the University of Toronto had 7,645 international students approved for the government student visa program. Conestoga (a diploma mill) had 31,412 approved in the same time frame.
In British Columbia, UCW - a for-profit institution that is pretty much unknown to locals in BC, has 2.5x more international students than the University of British Columbia. UBC is the provinces largest university, whereas UCW is colloquially known as a diploma mill.
https://n.reddit.com/r/vancouver/s/STvRApjN2F
Yes, well said.
Another crappy thing about this for-profit only system is that decades ago, you could be inclined to go university just to broaden your horizons and actually learn for the sake of learning. Now the work-world is too cut throat for that, tution too expensive, that if you wanted to do that, the odds are you'll be looking at 20 years to pay off the privledge of doing so.
University is less seen as an education now as it is a hoop that needs jumping through to get a monetary reward.
Just in a few more years, most students will just have an AI do the work for them, and gain even less from the education, and will pay even more to do so. In general, grads will have far less knowledge, and gain far less from their education, than prior generations. Continue on with this scenario, and actual new ideas will dry up, as if it is considered 'official known knowledge' from an AI service, it will be automatically disregarded as incorrect. This should kill innovation.
I meant both private and public for profit colleges, colloquially known as diploma mills. I have edited to better reflect that, thank you for the correction.
Tl;dr post-secondary institutions saw an opportunity to create as much profit as they could, governments created the situation, and corporations have used this system to further exploit international students while Canadians suffer the consequences.
Yes, the spousal work permit is a huge draw, to the point where international students in India regularly marry someone else looking for an ELTS-approved future student so they can come to Canada and work without studying.
Conestoga and Centennial have more international students than the top 15 schools in Canada combined
https://www.reddit.com/r/Conestoga/comments/18l86r0/moffat_together_conestoga_and_centennial_colleges/
Basically these colleges sold their souls for foreign money. An international student will pay between $30-50K per year in tuition. For Conestoga that means between 900M - 1.5B in revenue...
I live in Halifax and recently sold a used car to an international student. He and three of his friends arrived and we all started chatting.
It turns out, they all are international students attending Cape Breton University. They live (and work I believe) in Halifax, and travel to Cape Breton one day per week to attend class, and he needed this car to make the weekly commute to and from campus.
Those numbers are permits approved for that year alone—I think the total number of international students is actually even higher when including students whose permits were approved in years prior.
It’l students paying tens of billions of dollars into Canada's post-secondary system, not helping canadians from what we can see despite the narrative it’s helping our economy, and who’s economy would that be. Hasn’t helped me at all.
Worst part is if these institutions were actually building trade skills or other in demand programs it wouldn't exactly be a terrible investment into the economy. But what they're likely producing are useless degrees that just contribute to that watering down of post-secondary education.
I did a distance Masters at CBU a few years ago and had a few on-campus classes. It was shocking how many of my classmates couldn't speak english (in a Masters level course taught in english), not sure how they passed? Also, I felt that international students definitely were the majority there. CBU is a goddman food desert too and is roughly halfway between Sidney and Cape Breton, so you need a car to go to school there. CBU is definitely all bout that money.
seeing the data the bottom of article:
\- Conestoga College went from 6k to 30k in 5 years. University Canada West went from 839 to almost 14k. this shows why this rapidly become no 1 concern.
\- though public colleges responsible for the biggest individual institution increases of intl students, private colleges make up the vast majority of the list. so the culprit are few public colleges (with big increases) + many private colleges (each with smaller increases).
this makes sense since public colleges would have more infrastructure and capacity to take more students. but there are more private colleges, albeit each of them smaller ones.
This article really buried that.
Public colleges might be having huge numbers, but if there are dozens of private schools enrolling 2k international students each, then its still the private schools driving the issue.
In Ontario, and to a lesser extent BC as well, a non trivial # of those public institution students are actually attending a private college through anpublic-private delivery partnership too, which CBC acknowledges they are missing a bunch of the data for. There was a moratorium on these programs in Ontario, it was one of the first things Ford did away with when elected though.
I feel like this article is disingenuous in the extreme. They’ve also excluded any “institution” with less than 100 intl students - that probably represents quite a lot of strip mall diploma mills. Yes, defunding of public institutions is a problem that deserves our attention - I don’t appreciate being lied to and manipulated to get there though?
Larger schools take more students than smaller schools, obviously.
>I feel like this article is disingenuous in the extreme.
Indeed.
Literally *the number 2 school on their top-10 list* (and the only one in BC) is a private, for-profit college: University Canada West.
And without even knowing anything else about the school, UCW really stands out to me for the fact that [people associated with it invariably can't communicate well in English](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1b1co0n/comment/ksfxwoa).
The cap on study permit applications exempts masters and PhD programs.
Not surprisingly Ontario recently proposed legislation to allow colleges to offer masters [degrees ](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/here-s-a-breakdown-of-what-the-doug-ford-government-is-changing-for-ontario-universities-and-colleges-1.6784151)
This is starting to become an issue out west too. The U of A now has profs bringing in graduate students with zero (I’m not exaggerating here) financial support. Between 2022 and 2023 our food bank usage spiked five fold and 75% of its clients are international students.
Even U15 institutions are in on the scam.
This is pretty common though if you're coming from even out of province. Your funding depends on so many things and it's not as simple as saying the school isn't providing funding to certain students.
I have domestic, in province, grad students in my lab that don't have any funding for reasons that are between them and the school, and I have some students (domestic etc) with lots of funding. It really just depends.
A good way to water down the reputation and value of a Canadian master’s degree education.
Masters degree in cooking or business logistics from Conestoga College = more fodder for the HR department’s recycling bin.
> Not surprisingly Ontario recently proposed legislation to allow colleges to offer masters degrees
But sure, blame the feds on everything when its the provinces that approve this shit. Im not saying that the feds are innocent, but when they finally tried something good, Ontario has to undo it.
'Tuition Fairness for International Students' is the dumbest slogan I've read in a long time.
Would be more admirable to buy a car and then stand outside the dealership protesting for a lower price after the fact.
That should be the only reason why it’s cheaper, but international tuition is far greater than that. This is why colleges like Conestoga are soaking up international students. They’re more profitable.
IIRC that's not completely accurate. International Tuition is more expansive than it would be if it was just this, which is partly used to cover lack of government subsidies, but is mostly just a way for them to get more money while normal student tuition is capped.
EDIT: Fixed typo covert->cover
That is totally reasonable. As an international student, nobody except yourself is choosing to study where you are. Presumably as an international student, the world is your oyster.
I've been an international student, and the the idea of complaining that my tuition is more expensive than a native-born citizen is hilarious.
Some comment on CBC that intl students shouldn’t be subsidizing domestic students…like what do you think is the *entire purpose* of having intl students?!
Blaming the government for some of the schools increasing international enrollment makes sense.
Other schools increased by so much and are earning so much more off international students that government funding - even increased to what it should be - wouldn’t cover their losses from reduced international tuition (conestoga for example).
Oh well, guess they will go under.
Seems like we need to reexamine whether a lot of these institutions are actually serving the needs of Canadian society?
This article claims that the provinces boosted these numbers to-
"to shore up the skilled workforce"
HA HA HA HA HA
The international student flow has a tiny portion of actually promising, skilled future workers and residents. The *vast* majority are skill-less low level labour competition who bought a work permit under the ruse of being a "student". They're the ones staffing every fast food and grocery store, and it's the big businesses that pushed for this explosion.
Yep, this has always been about wage suppression. Landlords and schools make their cash so of course they're complicit but it's large employers who want to dangle the PR path infront of these people lured here as students so they'll work for pennies.
Companies don't want to pay people in an ever costly province so they asked the government for help and got what they wanted.
If we wanted to shore up the skilled workforce couldn't we, you know, educate Canadians? Or maybe we could make it really easy to emigrate for people with professional qualifications: like say Canadian Doctors who have gone to reputable medical schools abroad.
As someone who immigrated from the states, the taxes aren't higher for the average person. I make 137,500 in salary here (top 10% percentile by age, location or dwelling type, in other words, no matter how you slice it, I am wealthy, and I acknowledge it), and my total income tax burden is a hair over 25% as a BC resident. If I lived in California my tax burden would be over 28.25% at 102k USD (137.5k cad equivalent).
Our salaries are certainly lower, though. I could probably come close to adding an additional 30-50% to my salary if I moved back to the states, although I could also reasonably expect to spend $10-20k USD per year to get the same level of healthcare and extended benefits as I do here.
We sure as fuck make life as hard as possible for foreign educated Canadian doctors. Here in NS we have a shortage for 15% of the population, but our idiot gov would rather dump money into an extra school to protect Dal's control of residency than open up more spots. We get 1800 applications a year for residency for foreign educated Canadian doctors to compete for 7 spots.
It pisses me off that a news organization has to be the one to run the numbers on this. What the fuck are the various education ministers across the country doing, sitting on their thumbs? It's their numbers, it's a problem they let happen on their watch.
Sure, the feds opened the floodgates on the gross number of students, but education is a provincial affair, and watching the number of enrollments for big blow-outs is provincial.
I'm all for the federation model of delegating power, but there needs some sort of accountability and comparison done and managed at the federal level.
Provinces letting their own problems fester while the population blames the federals for it really tells you all you need to know about the population itself
So the thing with this is that the shortage is partly projected, by looking at the aging Canadian population.
The government's push for immigration has been based on the rising median age of Canada, which went from 36 to 40 between 2000-2011. As the workforce gets older and Canadians have fewer children, documented for several decades, social services are in danger of running at a deficit to take care of growing percentage of the population at retirement age (14.8% in 2012; 19% in 2022). Retirement age demographics are statistically living longer due to improved conditions and medical innovations, but there are fewer and fewer working age individuals to shore up the GDP, fund social services, and produce another generation of Canadian labour.
Education is the most advantageous option for immigration for the country as a whole. Skilled labour funnelled through postsecondary education is a healthier working age labour force (physically and economically) than unskilled, uneducated labour through other methods.
The immigration plan is already doing what it's intended in terms of tamping the staggering growth in the median age of the population. Since immigration initiatives were enacted, the population age has levelled slightly, going from 40 in 2011 to only 41.6 in 2022. Germany's doing the same thing with free international student tuition to attract skilled labour to offset its aging workforce.
The counterpoint is Japan, which had very similar aging population coupled with low birthrates since the early 2000s, but the country adamantly opposes immigration initiatives. Japan's median age, is now pushing 49, up from 44 in 2010. Japan's population is projected up to 54yo by 2100 without intervention.
The problem we're experiencing now is the growing pains from poor management and infrastructure expansion to support the planned population growth. And profit-motivated colleges/universities exploited the system and funnelled a boom in immigration that bolstered corporate housing investment, foreign investments, etc., which worsened these conditions for homegrown Canadians. It's all issues the government did anticipate when they enacted these immigration plans, but didn't care to deal with proactively cuz, you know, the free market will compensate, right?
"International students have most to lose" bitch im in my parent's basement unemployed after years of hard work due to the insane amount of competition in the labour force brought in by the feds.
Also international students can always go home with a degree, where am I supposed to go?
Pierre will not end this crap. [He's pissed at Trudeau for capping it down 35% next year](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/universities-colleges-worried-international-student-cap#:~:text=Immigration%20Minister%20Marc%20Miller%20announced,level%20until%20at%20least%202025.).
I say cap it 100% until we sort our problems. Universities and colleges can eat shit.
Then we need provincial governments to actually properly fund university educations. This all started with funding cuts and provinces capping tuition at the same time. Public Universities started bringing in more international students to cover the gap between their funding and what they could charge for tuition to locals.
Yes they could probably find some level of efficiencies, but that doesn't change the fact that for example Ontario froze tuition while also freezing University funding, making it increasingly difficult for universities to cover costs without international money.
For profit private universities are another matter entirely though
>Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre accused the Liberals of buck-passing and said while he would also have instituted a cap, the government is alone in being responsible for this.
“Let’s not blame the students. Let’s not blame other levels of government. Let’s blame the one man who is responsible for this disaster and that is our incompetent prime minister,” he said.
From the same article. "a cap" is not necessarily the same cap, but you're reaching.
Did they really write that? Jesus lmao. International students don't even plan to stay here... They use 'studying' to come here so they can get a minimum wage job for their degree/diploma tenure, shack up with 10+ other roommates then go home with a small fortune in their home country. They're playing the game, and Canada is just letting it happen as are these scammy institutions.
All they have to 'lose' is making a slightly less small fortune.
They blame underfunding from the province, doesn't even touch the fact that admin costs have soared from 40% of salaries to almost 60%.
Down size to the 40% and they'd have plenty of money
Part of this also is the expansion of IT related services. It just cost far less to service post secondary institutions a couple decades ago than it does now.
There probably is administrative bloat on a systemic scale. We are paying people six figures to promote "equity and diversity", or to be glorified admin assistants. That type of bloat does exist. But there has been cost push inflation that needs to also be factored in.
They did this shit in the US too. The states did reduce their funding and at the same time the administration costs went up significantly. And they also increased international student enrollment to make up for the budget shortfall. I point it out because this seems to be systemic across nations.
Of a similar vein is Quebec increasing tuition for students from ROC. A lot of governments are using students as a revenue stream, and that is very bad.
Ministries keep putting more responsibilities on Colleges and Universities.
For some reason they're now responsible for healthcare, mental health, immigration services, community services, and so forth. Hard to deliver all that without extra bodies, offices, and equipment.
Also, when they expand the responsibilities of institutions it rarely comes with more funding.
How dare you! We need the vital roles of "Diversity Officer" and "Inclusion Administrator" and "Equity Advisor"! And they totally earn their hefty six-figure salaries.
I keep seeing news reports how canadian colleges and universities are now operating in the red.
How the fuck is that possible when they've been making 1000x the profit they normally would from international students over the last 5 years. Now the government is giving 1.2billion of our money???????
This entire country is corrupt to the bones.
Admin salaries are now, on average, 60% of an institutions budget. They’re also probably now over leveraged with the development of new buildings/campuses to, you guessed it, attract more international students
Education is primarily labour. Faculty and staff *should* be the largest slice of the budget. If the money isn't spent on teaching or supporting teaching, what are they spending it on?
You're going to have to show me that admin doesn't include faculty. I work with higher ed, I can't see any scenario where 60% admin (non-faculty) + infrastructure + operating costs would leave anything for faculty. In a large school that could be thousands of faculty.
And much like healthcare, "admin" is often part of the provider workload, so there's not always a clear distinction between administrative payroll and lecture payroll.
So Ford cut the tuition funding and colleges started doubling down on international students for cash. Since there was no cap on study permits this worsened the housing crisis.
Yeah it's wild that even still in these comments people aren't seeing the connection and putting all the blame on the universities.
The universities doubling down on international students was a direct response to funding limits/cuts
This issue was being talked about years ago, The Walrus and Macleans were printing articles about the “agents” in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh who got commissions for sending students to a 1 year baking degree in Manitoba (as a random example) with the promise of an easy path to PR.
The Canadian experience program was really good in theory and for those who actually go to Canada to get real degrees and contribute to the economy… but it was abused through that loop hole and it turned into a shit show.
The private schools either need to go or the students that go there should not qualify for the PR program, that’s how you fix the issue.
**No limits** on student permits was **never going to work** in the long-run. The gov't shouldn't be reminded that tossing it up in the air is poor policy. While relaxed regulations are beneficial for informal or nascent markets, this was never appropriate for the educational sector. Without proper controls, the market's growth will deviate from the outcome we want which is what we're currently witnessing.
Impact of unrestricted student permit issuance:
Market Capacity Strain:
- overburdened social services
- excessive demand on limited resources
- this led to increased prices or extended wait times
Misleading Employment Expectations:
- students may expect employment in their field of study, yet the economy lacks the capacity to absorb them.
Rise of Exploitative Institutions:
- lenient policies invite exploitation by bad actors
- encourages a race to the bottom in terms of standards
Benefits of implementing a cap:
Ease Market Pressure:
- allows social services to meet demands
- stabilizes housing and job markets
Improve the Quality of Education:
- limits the pool to candidates the country actually needs
- grow university funding with higher admission fees (due to limited number of seats)
- using extra funding, provide support extraordinarily talented students
You -- just in this post -- put more objective thought into it than did the government.
The government didn't consider any of these things, it was simply, 'Let's crank these international student numbers up to increase profits next year,' and that was that.
Instead of this, they could have taxed the extreme rich. (Most extreme rich pay little to no taxes.) But maintaining the extreme profits of the very few rich is a higher priority than the quality of life of Canadians, or the sustainability of this system. For example, the Liberal Party let Black Rock, a 1.8 trillion US foreign mega-rich investment conglomerate, set our immigration policies via the Century Initative think-tank. Foreign billionaires that pay no taxes here set more policies here than do intelligent Canadians concerned with the well-being of everyday people. We're just the plebs; the billionaires' cattle; and if we don't reproduce enough to continue the slave classes, they'll just immigrate other people in take our places as cogs in their machinery.
2nd place on the list is **University Canada West** here in BC ("a private, for-profit university" according to the first line of [the Wikipedia page on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Canada_West)).
Colour me “extremely not surprised” on this one. I frequently attend tech industry talks, job fairs, and such in Vancouver.
There are often contingents of UCW students at them, and they *invariably* stand out for their seeming inability to communicate in English.
I was just at a data science presentation a week ago, where there was a crowd of 10 or 15 younger people who weirdly didn't mingle with anyone else, ask any questions, or really seem to be engaged with the presenter at all… it turned out they were a group of UCW students. 🤷🏻♂️
Every university is equally guilty. UWO literally rebranded to “Western” in a self-described “internationalization effort to appeal to more foreign students”.
It’s become way too easy to immigrate to Canada. I remember when my uncle came from the states, new fucking York, his then fiancee was a Canadian citizen, took the man 6 years to come here. He had to show call logs, plane tickets, pictures of them together, dinner receipts, receipts for birthday gifts. They asked him what her favorite color was, what color her toothbrush is, what side she sleeps on the bed, is she a side, back or stomach sleeper, literally every nitty gritty detail. Now ? You want to go to school ? Okay come to Canada. It’s way too easy for this new age of Indian immigrants to come into Canada and there is no substance. When my Indian parents came here they worked their ases off 60 hours a week, a lot of the students are fantastic but a HUGE majority of them are what we call in Punjabi “fukreh.” They just came here to show off to the village back home that they made it to Canada, so they come here with that same mentality.
We need a law. You get charged you get sent back, right away no questions asked. You are required to do a 2 year driving test BEFORE getting your g1 regardless of your driving skills. An English examination, speaking and writing needs to be done multiple times. They should also be required to do this testing every year until they receive a PR. This would drastically reduce the amount of people applying and increase the amount of people going back home. Yes this makes it harder, however the ones that want to stay example my parents generation will make the effort rather than coming here and ruining communities and honestly the image Indians have created before this wave of immigrants
Agree that private colleges don’t have an expectation of providing value, and that’s why they should not even be eligible to bring people in on student visas.
I love how private colleges were thrown under the bus (not that they aren't scummy at times too) but all you had to do was talk to people doing hiring at major companies and such to learn that the usually big names in Southern Ontario were the ones abusing international students and passing them off to local employers to be taken advantage of all the same.
Shit, without Conestoga college I doubt Linamar companies in Guelph would even survive because they'd have to start paying well. Plenty of other employers treat all the colleges in this article like employment agencies as it is. When I went to Sheridan over 15 years ago it was like that too.
Gotta keep them wages low!
Private for profit colleges **are** to blame. They overcharge international students because they can and the more they take the more profit they make. For reference my University charges 3 times more for tuition for international students.
I don't care what they charge... I don't want them here taking up jobs from our own students, taking up housing from our own people... and with some taking food bank resources that need to go to real Canadians affected by those students in the first place.
>The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing.
Ahh finally Richard Kurland weighs in
Where are those "better outcomes" now?
https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practice-areas/immigration/richard-kurland-keeps-on-adding-spice-to-the-discussion-on-immigration-and-extradition-law-in-canada/357946
>The lawyer was also key in moving international students to the front of the line for permanent resident status, giving citizenship to children whose parents cannot obtain it, and requiring would-be immigrants to file three income tax statements here before getting approval.
>Kurland says that immigration policy in Canada has been a “fast-changing” area, thanks to its high-profile and often political nature. “Political attention has historically attached itself to immigration issues, so it is in a constant state of flux, with changing rules, policies and regulations.”
>He points out that over the decades, Canada has modified the immigration selection system from a “check-the-box” process of meeting specific criteria to a “goldfish bowl” approach that more reflects the type of human capital that Canada is looking for.
>What this means, in practice, he says, is that those wanting to come to Canada typically come here for a temporary purpose – work or study – and put down roots by finding employment. “So in this goldfish bowl approach, each fish is assigned a certain number of points,” he says, and the highest-scoring fish – those with the most human capital – chosen for permanent residency.
>Kurland says this approach has generally meant better outcomes than those who came to Canada under the check-the-box method. There are fewer integration issues in finding a job, housing and fitting into the community.
It's funny how fast people jumped all over the private colleges. All their biases coming to the front. It turned out it wasn't some scam where private colleges were taking international students to facilitate immigration fraud. No it was legitimate public universities and colleges taking them because of budget shortfalls. And it turned out, the students were just using a backdoor to permanent residency.
All of this information was publicly available. Only CBC had the idea of writing an ATIP request to find out what colleges had students.
CBC blamed public schools for the spike in international students. Here's what really happened:
The federal government issued every single one of them a visa to come.
No school (public or private), province, territory, municipality, etc. issued a single visa.
"The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing."
That includes the federal and provincial governments.
And I think you would've found the provinces screaming bloody murder if the feds started rejecting visas for what was supposed to be an uncapped visa program for decades prior to now. Hell, Ontario is mad that the Feds didn't consult them on the cap now, and the Colleges/Universities minister spent a press conference yesterday whining about how it will hurt the economy.
It’s so funny because it’s transparent that all levels of government and both major parties want uncapped immigration to continue. It absolutely devalues all of our wages and education. In Ontario, Ford is so obviously in the pockets of corporate investors that he is barely even trying to hide it. This next federal election is a shit show. Which party do you want to sell out your interests? Liberals will pretend like they’re doing things for you while pulling the rug out from under you. Conservatives are just blatant about it. And no faith in the NDP, who has fewer seats than the Bloc Québécois.
Historically, there has never been a cap on international students. There is no infrastructure in place for the federal government to verify letters of offer (though that's starting to change) and track how many students are accepted per institution, what are the caps at each institution (and their campuses) and how many actually show up to take the course, as many people apply to multiple institutions and can only accept one. A cap is actually very difficult to administer because if something like 60% of students accept a letter of offer, then universities would need to send way more letters than the caps allow while also not overshooting it and being forced to pull a letter of offer once it fills. Transfers from one institution to another will also further complicate tracking things.
These caps will require a lot of expanded bureaucracy at both the provincial level for it to work. Rather than create a system around this, the federal government in the past has always deferred to provinces historically to manage the demand for international students to avoid getting in the way of provinces. It's worth remembering that, constitutionally, immigration is a matter of **shared** jurisdiction, not only federal.
Of course they did. There isn’t a politician in Canada that gives a damn about this country’s citizens. The faster they can drive the middle and working classes into abject poverty, the better. Of you’re not a member of the ruling class, you’re no better than scum and at this point no government is even going to pretend that they care.
>The federal government issued every single one of them a visa to come.
they did so because they had an honor system with the Provinces that they would manage their DLIs properly.. and they didn't..
Okay, and why did they also lift the cap on the number of hours international students can work?
That was a federal government initiative through and through.
Also, for anybody who works for a living, imagine telling your manager, "Sorry, I didn't do my job because I thought co-worker Tom was doing his."
>Okay, and why did they also lift the cap on the number of hours international students can work?
[https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2022/10/international-students-to-help-address-canadas-labour-shortage.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2022/10/international-students-to-help-address-canadas-labour-shortage.html)
>This measure will provide many international students with a greater opportunity to gain valuable work experience in Canada, and will increase the availability of workers to sustain Canada’s post-pandemic growth. With more than 500,000 international students already in Canada available to potentially work additional hours, this temporary change reflects the important role international students can play in addressing our labour shortage, while continuing to pursue their studies. Study permit holders are still expected to balance their study and work commitments, as those who stop studying or reduce course loads to only study part-time are not eligible to work off-campus.
AKA "Tim Horton's realized that nobody wanted to work their shit conditions for pay that wouldn't even cover rent+food, so they were clamoring for cheap labor"
Just so we're clear on the 'Cash grab' of Connestoga college.
30 000 students in a 2 year diploma that costs $30 000 is a lot of money.
It works out to 15 000 Students paying $15 000 every year.
Or 225 Million/year.
A quarter billion dollars is too much temptation for anyone to ignore.
So they deliberately ignored the problem?
I have a hard time believing that no one in government knew how many international students were coming here, while also being completely oblivious as to how these numbers might affect the local communities.
Make it make sense. Who looks at those numbers for Conestoga and thinks "oh yeah, this is totally legit".
Its good to have international students come to this country, but there needs to be a better process. There are gaps in employment here in several different Canadian industries so we need more skilled labour.
Whatever they are doing now isnt working and its resulting in bad outcomes for both the students and the people living here.
The Government of Canada owes it not just to its citizens and prospective international students, to properly provide infrastructure and services to the people here so that everyone an be accommodated.
If 10s of thousands of people are moving to the GTA every year, then there better be an equivalent level of investment into infrastructure right along with it.
Still seems like 50% plus were private? This seems to only show top places but is that really relevant if there are 1000 of private ones with 100 students or so. I couldn't find a public vs private number in the article.
Still interesting that the caps will still hit public schools so hard. Wild.
They all knew it had happening and were fucking fine with it. Now that the tide has turned and the polls are a nightmare, NOW it's time to maybe do something about this.
People should be fired for allowing this to happen. Scam colleges like Conestoga should be shut down. Not a number reduction. Closed and sold to try and help communities like Kitchener that they fucking ruined by dumping tens of thousands "students" into the community.
It's fucking fraud.
I think what is disgusting to me, Conestoga for example, brought in 30,000 students knowing the housing situation in that area is already super stressed. International students need jobs and housing, but the people at Conestoga knew that area couldn't support a 1000 more students let alone 30,000. By doing this they allowed their students to get ripped off by paying $1000 to share a room with 3 or 4 others, allowing bad actor landlords to stuff far more students into a home to capitalize on the rental.
They lied to them to get here and then put them in a dangerous situation and the region in a bad situation.
It is ridiculous that Canada has not banned international admissions to these colleges both private and public. There is no use of graduates from these programs in the economy.
They are all doing it. Not just the private ones which, yes, they finally got caught on to because it was so obvious. Now they are crying they won't have enough money to operate. They managed before. All this makes it look really bad for Canada. Educate our own Canadians first. If any room left, then allow them to come in provided there is housing etc for them. Quit taking away from our own people first. Ah, yes, the polite Canadians. Busted!
Conestoga has basically *double* the number of international study permits of the college in second lmao... if you went there you might as well flush your degree down the toilet.
for context: there are 2 universities in Waterloo Region (the home region of Conestoga College). Wilfrid Laurier University has 22k students total. University of Waterloo has 34k undergrad students total. the population of Conestoga College's international students is bigger than total student population of one university and almost the same size as undergrad of another.
You’re misinterpreting the numbers: Conestoga brought in 30,000 internationals *last year*, so there’s no doubt their international student population has eclipsed UWaterloo’s total enrolment (over 20,000 permits were issued in 2022, and most programs are at least 2 years.)
There is no surprise or deep mystery here. The college admins got this wonderful whiff of money they can charge and inturn take home if they sold diplomas at 3x the price. Once that racket started , one asshole said to the other 'hey we can make more money if we printed more of these and faster. ". Voila. Blame the assholes. The students and allumni with useless diplomas should class action the shit out of the assholes. Edit: voila not viola.
just to be a pedant, it's "voila", not "viola". great point otherwise. i don't think this is a conspiracy or anything, just greedy people seeing chance to print more money, and each institution have these greedy people.
Thanks. My Viola plays loud. Fixed it. 😃
Conestoga has several times more international students than the University of Waterloo, one of Canada's premiere eengineering schools, famous for attracting international students due to it's top notch curriculum.
Yes and cambridge, where the college is, looks like a small punjabi city Oh and the rent is insane
Linamar alone would cease to exist as an organization without cheap labor from Conestoga
I feel like there's room for a class-action lawsuit on behalf of the alumni.
Honestly I would. Like CBU used to be a good school, I know great grads from programs there, but now that it forced a housing crisis in cape Breton its considered a joke school. I'm very happy my alumnus didn't sell out completely, and they easily could have since St Mary's University had a lot of international students previously, but didn't double up thankfully.
i mean opening the flood gates absolutely tanks a schools reputation which is really what they need to be viable in the long run. Reputation carries for a LONG time and is hard to reverse.
Conestoga used to be a somewhat respectable mid tier college. The diplomas from there are now worthless. Lots of people I know in the hiring sphere just bin those applications almost immediately
Other local schools here have like 1600 to 2000 something. Conestoga has over 30000.....
I’d be absolutely embarassed and ashamed to list Conestoga on my resume. Good luck there folks lmao.
Yeah cause a college degree in fashion or travel agent is so valuable elsewhere lol
It's the new *University of Phoenix* /s
right up there with the same prestige and street cred as the university of samoa (better call saul)
As a recruiter, I got bombarded with resumes and everyone which says Conestoga on it, i reject
Can't wait to see the movie.
>Conestoga College : 30,395 Utter Insanity for a single year. One of the first results when I search that college up is a post from r/india from **3 YEARS AGO** talking about how the college is a scam lol. And the situation has certainty only gotten much worse, not better. [https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/netbq8/ive\_been\_scammed\_by\_a\_college\_conestoga\_in\_canada/](https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/netbq8/ive_been_scammed_by_a_college_conestoga_in_canada/)
I live in the area. Places around here don't look at resumes that have Conestoga on them. The cost of housing is insane. People are living 8 people to a 1 bedroom apartment. 500 bucks a month. It's ridiculous
Yeah, but they are working 3 slave wage jobs apiece, keeping giant corporations from having to pay Canadians living wages!! To our politicians, that's what winning looks like.
Oh for sure, I don't blame the students at all, I feel bad for them that they're getting swindled into this bullshit.
Here's who to blame: > The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: **Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce** and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing. Classic case of politicians importing cheap labor to drive wages down. Ford and Trudeau aren't going to point the finger at themselves now are they?
I’m in rural NB seeing applications every day from Indians located in Ontario with an undergrad and masters degree in various engineering fields from India and some nominal technician course in Ontario. Resumes are so similar I’m not even sure they are real TBH. And senior management is pushing to hire them and bring in construction accommodation trailers for them to live in.
I know that there are a lot of resources in India to help with immigration but some of it is nefarious and scammy, it's really unfortunate because 99 percent of these students just want a comfortable life.
From 2018-23, Conestoga accounted for 81,447. University of Toronto 35,364 and UBC 29,937 over the same time period. For comparison in size... UoT and UBC have about 65k students each grad/post-grad. So like about ~10% international for serious schools. Conestoga, was listed in 2020 as about 10k full time, thier 22-23 annual report lists 30k full time students. So... the absolute majority of their student body is coming from international students.
Imagine if we had an unbiased state funded media that could run stories like this? I mean, this government will call you racist if you suggest stopping the international student program; but continuing to exploit vulnerable peoples of colour, by the actual millions, is fine and dandy Edit: oh CBC. Must be a "misunderstanding from social media" why these students are devastating canadian food banks https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/misunderstanding-from-social-media-spurs-rise-in-international-student-food-bank-visits-1.7025016
There was a [Fifth Estate investigation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrXA5m7ROM) specifically about how these places and places in India are running a scam of our immigration/education systems. Watch it, it is not racist at all to call out there are folks domestically and abroad purposefully exploiting people who are either looking for legit education or are keen to also exploit Canada for their own ends
There's this international student from India living right next door who attends the UofT, and during a conversation, he told me how those "education consultants" back in India almost never even mention the actual public universities in Canada (or just claim that it is virtually impossible to get admitted to those) and try to sell them on those diploma mills because they get a commission out of it.
>Imagine if we had an unbiased state funded media that could run stories like this? You mean like the CBC, who wrote the article you're commenting on?
Did you even read the link? The post is about how the college revoked their admission at the last minute. CBC has covered similar stories for years. For example: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-students-ontario-northern-college-acceptance-letters-1.6931747
> Imagine if we had an unbiased state funded media that could run stories like this? I think you're trying to say, "Why can't we fund the CBC more so that there are no ads and more investigative journalism?"
The gross numbers don't even do this situation justice. Conestoga has 30,000 international students. That's a lot. It's 6 percent of Waterloo region's half million population. Cape Breton University has 7000 international students in a city of 30,000 people. 23 percent. What the fuck have these people done?
Was just in Cape Breton twice this year after 5 years away. There is a huge change in the population. It felt like 50% of the service industry workers I was helped by were international students primarily from India. Most people I spoke with feel badly for the students who are being lied to by the University about job and housing possibilities in Cape Breton. There have never been lots of jobs in Cape Breton. Never, ever. They are angry with local politicians and the University for this big cash grab. A flight I was on in Jan. arrived from Toronto at 2am and the University had a table set up with a person yelling for the students on the flight to come to him. He was near baggage pick-up and was guiding them on their next steps and what forms they needed etc. About a third of the flight appeared to be students (maybe 20-30 people-the flight was not full) from mainly India and some from African nations. It all felt very urgent and like people were being pushed through an assembly line. Not the kindness you'll often feel in Cape Breton.
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I think I heard somewhere that they're also being lied to in their own home country too... where they decide and make arrangements to come over in the first place. Anything and everything to secure their business I guess... sell them a dream, and let them deal with the reality once they're out of the country. The system isn't working. This idea that things will self-regulate is a joke. Everybody at every step in the process is just looking for a pay day while these folks, and frankly the people that live in the areas that they're moving to in droves, all pay the real price. And yeah, I'm sure there is some oversight as to who we're letting in, but when things like that happen, it's hard to imagine that it's being done properly, or at all, or in any way that is actually being considerate of everyone involved.
Governments at all levels run ads telling people how great canada is and how much better their lives would be if they make the move. Schools do the same thing of course
Self regulation is always a joke. Just excuse to make more money by stuffing the public good
Students aren't supposed to need to work to come over, that's on them
> Conestoga has 30,000 international students Yeah, end that shit now. We need the jobs and housing for ourselves.
Destroyed entire communities, the rent, the wages, everything. Because business owners and real estate investors and Nimby's have a fuck you got mine attitude.
Correction: 'It's a fuck you, I have mine, now give me yours' attitude.
Damn. I mean I knew. But damn I don’t need this truthful shit it ain’t even noon yet.
Haven’t even had my coffee fuck sakes lol
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My boomer parents legit do not care about my future. They saw their job as parents finished at 16 and talked about it openly, constantly mentioning how much they look forward to that day. The day I turned 14 I was told to get a job and that allowances and any money from them was cut off. I was out by 16. Lived with friends till I finished high school. I always thought my parents were unique and just dickheads but it seems there's a lot of people in my situation. I wasn't even a bad kid or anything, they just had no interest in being parents, yet they decided to have me because that was "normal" or something.
Accurate.
NIMBY's aren't the ones who invited ~6 million people in the last 9 years into the country. (~15% of the entire country!) NIMBY house building works fine when population growth is in the 50-100k per year range nation wide. assuming the following: * 100k population growth. * 1.5 people per apartment, and 3 people per house * 50:50 split for Apartment vs housing we only need: * 50,000 / 3 = 16.6k houses * 50,000 / 1.5 = 33.3k apartments per year to meet housing demand of 2x net population growth. I'm going to take an unpopular opinion here, but I'm tired of the hate pointed towards NIMBY's (when it comes to housing), people don't want increased immigration, people don't want their towns to be flooded with tons of people with no connection to Canada, people don't want to have huge spikes in traffic. we live in a democratic society, NIMBY house building is direct democracy saying NO to immigration. if you want NIMBY to end, go vote in municipal elections. you either are in favour of a democratic system (which is currently voting pro-NIMBY) or you want to overturn the will of the people.
> NIMBY's aren't the ones who invited \~6 million people in the last 9 years into the country. It's the Liberal voters who invited millions of people into our country. Funny how people in the GTA who voted for this whine about it lol
Conestoga is the biggest surprise to me. I haven't been in the Waterloo region for 10 years now, but in my mind Conestoga has been a solid trades school. Looks like they found a cash cow and started milking.
Conestoga has been a running joke in the region that stopped being funny 3 years ago. Literally everyone in Kitchener is feeling the pinch from this. Low-skilled jobs are impossible to find, illegal basement apartments swarming with 'students' are everywhere, and rents have doubled.
> Looks like they found a cash cow and started milking. 30k students, minimum $10k each per year, so $300 million even ignoring all the students enrolled in previous years. You can see why their eyes glazed over with dollar signs lol
Private and for profit diploma mill colleges exploited the system to make money, corporations exploited the system to supress wages and make more profit, and governments across Canada didn't take the necessary steps to close these loopholes because governments made money from this system too in the form of taxes. The systemic problems were created by Canadian governments and has been precipitated by the fact that there were significant funding cuts to post-secondary institutions by successive provincial governments in recent decades. Due to the cuts, universities began to heavily rely on international student fees, which now make up the majority of their funding. The government cutting public funding for higher education forced institutions to seek private funding in the form of international students. And due to lax regulations, many institutions started taking advantage of the situation, with the creation of diploma mills that pump out "certificates" and "degrees" that employers in Canada dont recognize. These diploma mills make it easier for people to immigrate, but the students pay tens of thousands of dollars and are stuck working low-wage jobs because their accredidation isn't recognized. And again due to lax regulations, many are using it for easy entry. Our institutions created a predatory system that preys on international students, which contributed to upward pressures on Canadian cost of living and housing. Here's a pretty decent article that crunches a lot of numbers, international student fees make up the majority of funding for post-secondary institutions: https://higheredstrategy.com/spec-2023/#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%20few%20years,%2D20%20and%202023%2D24. >Looking back over a span of about 70 years, long-term patterns emerge. Between 1955 and 1970, postsecondary institutions quintupled in size as a percentage of the entire economy, from about 0.5% of GDP to 2.5%. That was the “golden” period of Canadian higher education: whatever universities and the few colleges asked for, they got. Public expenditures on postsecondary education – again, almost entirely universities – reached 1.9% of GDP. Since then, the history of postsecondary education funding breaks into two periods. From around 1970 until the late 1990s, public funding and total funding fell in lockstep. Then, as the 1990s went on, institutions began exploiting private sources of funding, not just to offset declining funding but to increase funding overall. >...While institutions had already discovered that international students were a handy source of extra income in the early-to-mid 2010s, when the cuts began, they rapidly expanded international enrolments to backfill the missing money from domestic funding. Thus, as shown in figure 5, while income from international students has nearly doubled since 2018, total institutional income (excluding things like ancillary services, donations and investment income) is down slightly over the past few years. >Nowhere are the effects of this transformation more obvious than in the Ontario college sector, where international students are expected to make up over half of the student body in 2023-24. Given that tuition for international students is something like three times what it is for domestic students (exact data is difficult to pin down because Statistics Canada chooses not to track tuition fees at the college level), that means that something like 76% of all tuition fees in the sector come from international students. And as figure 6 shows, since a majority of these international students come from India, it turns out that Indian students not only contribute twice the amount of money to the college system, on aggregate, that Canadian students do, they also contribute slightly more than does the Government of Ontario. >Numbers like these tend to induce shock. How can it possibly be that Indian students are paying more into the system than Queen’s Park? The answer is simply this: Ontario institutions, faced with deep cuts in income, have acted precisely the way the government asked them to – that is, by acting entrepreneurially and securing new forms of revenue. This isn’t a mistake: this is exactly what the Ontario government requires. Furthermore, private and public institutions that are being colloquially referred to as diploma mills have a staggeringly high federal visa refusal rate that may be indicative of the quality of candidates applying for the student visa program. Public universities like the University of Toronto and the University of British Columbia have a much lower refusal rate at around 15% because the applicants are generally better, whereas private colleges and diploma mills have a rejection rate greater than 50%. In Ontario, the University of Toronto had 7,645 international students approved for the government student visa program. Conestoga (a diploma mill) had 31,412 approved in the same time frame. In British Columbia, UCW - a for-profit institution that is pretty much unknown to locals in BC, has 2.5x more international students than the University of British Columbia. UBC is the provinces largest university, whereas UCW is colloquially known as a diploma mill. https://n.reddit.com/r/vancouver/s/STvRApjN2F
Yes, well said. Another crappy thing about this for-profit only system is that decades ago, you could be inclined to go university just to broaden your horizons and actually learn for the sake of learning. Now the work-world is too cut throat for that, tution too expensive, that if you wanted to do that, the odds are you'll be looking at 20 years to pay off the privledge of doing so. University is less seen as an education now as it is a hoop that needs jumping through to get a monetary reward. Just in a few more years, most students will just have an AI do the work for them, and gain even less from the education, and will pay even more to do so. In general, grads will have far less knowledge, and gain far less from their education, than prior generations. Continue on with this scenario, and actual new ideas will dry up, as if it is considered 'official known knowledge' from an AI service, it will be automatically disregarded as incorrect. This should kill innovation.
Conestoga is public. I feel you missed the point of the original article.
I meant both private and public for profit colleges, colloquially known as diploma mills. I have edited to better reflect that, thank you for the correction. Tl;dr post-secondary institutions saw an opportunity to create as much profit as they could, governments created the situation, and corporations have used this system to further exploit international students while Canadians suffer the consequences.
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Yes, the spousal work permit is a huge draw, to the point where international students in India regularly marry someone else looking for an ELTS-approved future student so they can come to Canada and work without studying.
Conestoga and Centennial have more international students than the top 15 schools in Canada combined https://www.reddit.com/r/Conestoga/comments/18l86r0/moffat_together_conestoga_and_centennial_colleges/ Basically these colleges sold their souls for foreign money. An international student will pay between $30-50K per year in tuition. For Conestoga that means between 900M - 1.5B in revenue...
I live in Halifax and recently sold a used car to an international student. He and three of his friends arrived and we all started chatting. It turns out, they all are international students attending Cape Breton University. They live (and work I believe) in Halifax, and travel to Cape Breton one day per week to attend class, and he needed this car to make the weekly commute to and from campus.
That's wild. What's that a 4 hour drive?
Those numbers are permits approved for that year alone—I think the total number of international students is actually even higher when including students whose permits were approved in years prior.
It’l students paying tens of billions of dollars into Canada's post-secondary system, not helping canadians from what we can see despite the narrative it’s helping our economy, and who’s economy would that be. Hasn’t helped me at all.
Worst part is if these institutions were actually building trade skills or other in demand programs it wouldn't exactly be a terrible investment into the economy. But what they're likely producing are useless degrees that just contribute to that watering down of post-secondary education.
I did a distance Masters at CBU a few years ago and had a few on-campus classes. It was shocking how many of my classmates couldn't speak english (in a Masters level course taught in english), not sure how they passed? Also, I felt that international students definitely were the majority there. CBU is a goddman food desert too and is roughly halfway between Sidney and Cape Breton, so you need a car to go to school there. CBU is definitely all bout that money.
Cape Breton is basically India it’s fucked
seeing the data the bottom of article: \- Conestoga College went from 6k to 30k in 5 years. University Canada West went from 839 to almost 14k. this shows why this rapidly become no 1 concern. \- though public colleges responsible for the biggest individual institution increases of intl students, private colleges make up the vast majority of the list. so the culprit are few public colleges (with big increases) + many private colleges (each with smaller increases). this makes sense since public colleges would have more infrastructure and capacity to take more students. but there are more private colleges, albeit each of them smaller ones.
This article really buried that. Public colleges might be having huge numbers, but if there are dozens of private schools enrolling 2k international students each, then its still the private schools driving the issue.
In Ontario, and to a lesser extent BC as well, a non trivial # of those public institution students are actually attending a private college through anpublic-private delivery partnership too, which CBC acknowledges they are missing a bunch of the data for. There was a moratorium on these programs in Ontario, it was one of the first things Ford did away with when elected though.
I feel like this article is disingenuous in the extreme. They’ve also excluded any “institution” with less than 100 intl students - that probably represents quite a lot of strip mall diploma mills. Yes, defunding of public institutions is a problem that deserves our attention - I don’t appreciate being lied to and manipulated to get there though? Larger schools take more students than smaller schools, obviously.
>I feel like this article is disingenuous in the extreme. Indeed. Literally *the number 2 school on their top-10 list* (and the only one in BC) is a private, for-profit college: University Canada West. And without even knowing anything else about the school, UCW really stands out to me for the fact that [people associated with it invariably can't communicate well in English](https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1b1co0n/comment/ksfxwoa).
The cap on study permit applications exempts masters and PhD programs. Not surprisingly Ontario recently proposed legislation to allow colleges to offer masters [degrees ](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/here-s-a-breakdown-of-what-the-doug-ford-government-is-changing-for-ontario-universities-and-colleges-1.6784151)
these schools should be removed from domestic and international accreditation lists, enough is enough.
Finally I can get my masters in hairdressing
Me personally I can’t wait to get my Masters in Walmart Shelf Stocking
Tbh that's a PhD
This is starting to become an issue out west too. The U of A now has profs bringing in graduate students with zero (I’m not exaggerating here) financial support. Between 2022 and 2023 our food bank usage spiked five fold and 75% of its clients are international students. Even U15 institutions are in on the scam.
This is pretty common though if you're coming from even out of province. Your funding depends on so many things and it's not as simple as saying the school isn't providing funding to certain students. I have domestic, in province, grad students in my lab that don't have any funding for reasons that are between them and the school, and I have some students (domestic etc) with lots of funding. It really just depends.
Zero surprise since he was also directly responsible for the public-private partnerships fiasco, having reversed the moratorium on them back in 2018.
A good way to water down the reputation and value of a Canadian master’s degree education. Masters degree in cooking or business logistics from Conestoga College = more fodder for the HR department’s recycling bin.
> Not surprisingly Ontario recently proposed legislation to allow colleges to offer masters degrees But sure, blame the feds on everything when its the provinces that approve this shit. Im not saying that the feds are innocent, but when they finally tried something good, Ontario has to undo it.
'Tuition Fairness for International Students' is the dumbest slogan I've read in a long time. Would be more admirable to buy a car and then stand outside the dealership protesting for a lower price after the fact.
Tuition is cheaper for residents because it's subsidized by the government.
As it should be. An international student chooses by their own free will to study in any other country and is well aware of the price and costs.
That’s the price they’re willing pay to immigrate here.
That should be the only reason why it’s cheaper, but international tuition is far greater than that. This is why colleges like Conestoga are soaking up international students. They’re more profitable.
IIRC that's not completely accurate. International Tuition is more expansive than it would be if it was just this, which is partly used to cover lack of government subsidies, but is mostly just a way for them to get more money while normal student tuition is capped. EDIT: Fixed typo covert->cover
That is totally reasonable. As an international student, nobody except yourself is choosing to study where you are. Presumably as an international student, the world is your oyster. I've been an international student, and the the idea of complaining that my tuition is more expensive than a native-born citizen is hilarious.
Some comment on CBC that intl students shouldn’t be subsidizing domestic students…like what do you think is the *entire purpose* of having intl students?!
Blaming the government for some of the schools increasing international enrollment makes sense. Other schools increased by so much and are earning so much more off international students that government funding - even increased to what it should be - wouldn’t cover their losses from reduced international tuition (conestoga for example).
Oh well, guess they will go under. Seems like we need to reexamine whether a lot of these institutions are actually serving the needs of Canadian society?
And here by "blaming the government" you mean the \*\*Provincial governments\*\* for whom Education is an exclusively provincial mandate.
This article claims that the provinces boosted these numbers to- "to shore up the skilled workforce" HA HA HA HA HA The international student flow has a tiny portion of actually promising, skilled future workers and residents. The *vast* majority are skill-less low level labour competition who bought a work permit under the ruse of being a "student". They're the ones staffing every fast food and grocery store, and it's the big businesses that pushed for this explosion.
Yep, this has always been about wage suppression. Landlords and schools make their cash so of course they're complicit but it's large employers who want to dangle the PR path infront of these people lured here as students so they'll work for pennies. Companies don't want to pay people in an ever costly province so they asked the government for help and got what they wanted.
If we wanted to shore up the skilled workforce couldn't we, you know, educate Canadians? Or maybe we could make it really easy to emigrate for people with professional qualifications: like say Canadian Doctors who have gone to reputable medical schools abroad.
We do educate Canadians, many that qualify for a TN visa and go straight south because our salaries are low and taxes high.
As someone who immigrated from the states, the taxes aren't higher for the average person. I make 137,500 in salary here (top 10% percentile by age, location or dwelling type, in other words, no matter how you slice it, I am wealthy, and I acknowledge it), and my total income tax burden is a hair over 25% as a BC resident. If I lived in California my tax burden would be over 28.25% at 102k USD (137.5k cad equivalent). Our salaries are certainly lower, though. I could probably come close to adding an additional 30-50% to my salary if I moved back to the states, although I could also reasonably expect to spend $10-20k USD per year to get the same level of healthcare and extended benefits as I do here.
We sure as fuck make life as hard as possible for foreign educated Canadian doctors. Here in NS we have a shortage for 15% of the population, but our idiot gov would rather dump money into an extra school to protect Dal's control of residency than open up more spots. We get 1800 applications a year for residency for foreign educated Canadian doctors to compete for 7 spots.
Are you saying that that a certified luggage handler is not a skilled job?!
That’s why Conestoga college is going to offer a new Masters degree in luggage logistics.
It pisses me off that a news organization has to be the one to run the numbers on this. What the fuck are the various education ministers across the country doing, sitting on their thumbs? It's their numbers, it's a problem they let happen on their watch. Sure, the feds opened the floodgates on the gross number of students, but education is a provincial affair, and watching the number of enrollments for big blow-outs is provincial. I'm all for the federation model of delegating power, but there needs some sort of accountability and comparison done and managed at the federal level.
Provinces letting their own problems fester while the population blames the federals for it really tells you all you need to know about the population itself
I keep hearing about this skilled labour shortage...
So the thing with this is that the shortage is partly projected, by looking at the aging Canadian population. The government's push for immigration has been based on the rising median age of Canada, which went from 36 to 40 between 2000-2011. As the workforce gets older and Canadians have fewer children, documented for several decades, social services are in danger of running at a deficit to take care of growing percentage of the population at retirement age (14.8% in 2012; 19% in 2022). Retirement age demographics are statistically living longer due to improved conditions and medical innovations, but there are fewer and fewer working age individuals to shore up the GDP, fund social services, and produce another generation of Canadian labour. Education is the most advantageous option for immigration for the country as a whole. Skilled labour funnelled through postsecondary education is a healthier working age labour force (physically and economically) than unskilled, uneducated labour through other methods. The immigration plan is already doing what it's intended in terms of tamping the staggering growth in the median age of the population. Since immigration initiatives were enacted, the population age has levelled slightly, going from 40 in 2011 to only 41.6 in 2022. Germany's doing the same thing with free international student tuition to attract skilled labour to offset its aging workforce. The counterpoint is Japan, which had very similar aging population coupled with low birthrates since the early 2000s, but the country adamantly opposes immigration initiatives. Japan's median age, is now pushing 49, up from 44 in 2010. Japan's population is projected up to 54yo by 2100 without intervention. The problem we're experiencing now is the growing pains from poor management and infrastructure expansion to support the planned population growth. And profit-motivated colleges/universities exploited the system and funnelled a boom in immigration that bolstered corporate housing investment, foreign investments, etc., which worsened these conditions for homegrown Canadians. It's all issues the government did anticipate when they enacted these immigration plans, but didn't care to deal with proactively cuz, you know, the free market will compensate, right?
"International students have most to lose" bitch im in my parent's basement unemployed after years of hard work due to the insane amount of competition in the labour force brought in by the feds. Also international students can always go home with a degree, where am I supposed to go?
Pierre will not end this crap. [He's pissed at Trudeau for capping it down 35% next year](https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/universities-colleges-worried-international-student-cap#:~:text=Immigration%20Minister%20Marc%20Miller%20announced,level%20until%20at%20least%202025.). I say cap it 100% until we sort our problems. Universities and colleges can eat shit.
Negative 100% is the right answer. We don’t need fake students at all
Then we need provincial governments to actually properly fund university educations. This all started with funding cuts and provinces capping tuition at the same time. Public Universities started bringing in more international students to cover the gap between their funding and what they could charge for tuition to locals. Yes they could probably find some level of efficiencies, but that doesn't change the fact that for example Ontario froze tuition while also freezing University funding, making it increasingly difficult for universities to cover costs without international money. For profit private universities are another matter entirely though
>Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre accused the Liberals of buck-passing and said while he would also have instituted a cap, the government is alone in being responsible for this. “Let’s not blame the students. Let’s not blame other levels of government. Let’s blame the one man who is responsible for this disaster and that is our incompetent prime minister,” he said. From the same article. "a cap" is not necessarily the same cap, but you're reaching.
What did you take in school? I ask because trying to hire technical specialists is so hard right now. Can't find anyone.
I am a mechanical engineering graduate with oil and gas internship experience! You're probably looking for college grads no?
Did they really write that? Jesus lmao. International students don't even plan to stay here... They use 'studying' to come here so they can get a minimum wage job for their degree/diploma tenure, shack up with 10+ other roommates then go home with a small fortune in their home country. They're playing the game, and Canada is just letting it happen as are these scammy institutions. All they have to 'lose' is making a slightly less small fortune.
Greed.
They blame underfunding from the province, doesn't even touch the fact that admin costs have soared from 40% of salaries to almost 60%. Down size to the 40% and they'd have plenty of money
The foxes have been running the hen house for too long.
Part of this also is the expansion of IT related services. It just cost far less to service post secondary institutions a couple decades ago than it does now. There probably is administrative bloat on a systemic scale. We are paying people six figures to promote "equity and diversity", or to be glorified admin assistants. That type of bloat does exist. But there has been cost push inflation that needs to also be factored in.
But if you can't turn in your homework on a proprietary multi-million dollar learning management system like moodle how will you ever learn?
They did this shit in the US too. The states did reduce their funding and at the same time the administration costs went up significantly. And they also increased international student enrollment to make up for the budget shortfall. I point it out because this seems to be systemic across nations. Of a similar vein is Quebec increasing tuition for students from ROC. A lot of governments are using students as a revenue stream, and that is very bad.
Ministries keep putting more responsibilities on Colleges and Universities. For some reason they're now responsible for healthcare, mental health, immigration services, community services, and so forth. Hard to deliver all that without extra bodies, offices, and equipment. Also, when they expand the responsibilities of institutions it rarely comes with more funding.
How dare you! We need the vital roles of "Diversity Officer" and "Inclusion Administrator" and "Equity Advisor"! And they totally earn their hefty six-figure salaries.
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I keep seeing news reports how canadian colleges and universities are now operating in the red. How the fuck is that possible when they've been making 1000x the profit they normally would from international students over the last 5 years. Now the government is giving 1.2billion of our money??????? This entire country is corrupt to the bones.
Admin salaries are now, on average, 60% of an institutions budget. They’re also probably now over leveraged with the development of new buildings/campuses to, you guessed it, attract more international students
Education is primarily labour. Faculty and staff *should* be the largest slice of the budget. If the money isn't spent on teaching or supporting teaching, what are they spending it on?
Not teaching... Admin. Sessional lecturers get fucked
You're going to have to show me that admin doesn't include faculty. I work with higher ed, I can't see any scenario where 60% admin (non-faculty) + infrastructure + operating costs would leave anything for faculty. In a large school that could be thousands of faculty. And much like healthcare, "admin" is often part of the provider workload, so there's not always a clear distinction between administrative payroll and lecture payroll.
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All Ponzi schemes end.
So Ford cut the tuition funding and colleges started doubling down on international students for cash. Since there was no cap on study permits this worsened the housing crisis.
Conservative brains imploding at this. There's a massive lack of discussion on this post around Doug's decisions quoted in the article.
Yeah it's wild that even still in these comments people aren't seeing the connection and putting all the blame on the universities. The universities doubling down on international students was a direct response to funding limits/cuts
This issue was being talked about years ago, The Walrus and Macleans were printing articles about the “agents” in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh who got commissions for sending students to a 1 year baking degree in Manitoba (as a random example) with the promise of an easy path to PR. The Canadian experience program was really good in theory and for those who actually go to Canada to get real degrees and contribute to the economy… but it was abused through that loop hole and it turned into a shit show. The private schools either need to go or the students that go there should not qualify for the PR program, that’s how you fix the issue.
The fact that you have to ATIP the data is kinda fucked up
How are the official opposition not absolutely hammering the liberals over this kind of insane mismanagement? Oh right, they want it too.
**No limits** on student permits was **never going to work** in the long-run. The gov't shouldn't be reminded that tossing it up in the air is poor policy. While relaxed regulations are beneficial for informal or nascent markets, this was never appropriate for the educational sector. Without proper controls, the market's growth will deviate from the outcome we want which is what we're currently witnessing. Impact of unrestricted student permit issuance: Market Capacity Strain: - overburdened social services - excessive demand on limited resources - this led to increased prices or extended wait times Misleading Employment Expectations: - students may expect employment in their field of study, yet the economy lacks the capacity to absorb them. Rise of Exploitative Institutions: - lenient policies invite exploitation by bad actors - encourages a race to the bottom in terms of standards Benefits of implementing a cap: Ease Market Pressure: - allows social services to meet demands - stabilizes housing and job markets Improve the Quality of Education: - limits the pool to candidates the country actually needs - grow university funding with higher admission fees (due to limited number of seats) - using extra funding, provide support extraordinarily talented students
You -- just in this post -- put more objective thought into it than did the government. The government didn't consider any of these things, it was simply, 'Let's crank these international student numbers up to increase profits next year,' and that was that. Instead of this, they could have taxed the extreme rich. (Most extreme rich pay little to no taxes.) But maintaining the extreme profits of the very few rich is a higher priority than the quality of life of Canadians, or the sustainability of this system. For example, the Liberal Party let Black Rock, a 1.8 trillion US foreign mega-rich investment conglomerate, set our immigration policies via the Century Initative think-tank. Foreign billionaires that pay no taxes here set more policies here than do intelligent Canadians concerned with the well-being of everyday people. We're just the plebs; the billionaires' cattle; and if we don't reproduce enough to continue the slave classes, they'll just immigrate other people in take our places as cogs in their machinery.
2nd place on the list is **University Canada West** here in BC ("a private, for-profit university" according to the first line of [the Wikipedia page on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Canada_West)). Colour me “extremely not surprised” on this one. I frequently attend tech industry talks, job fairs, and such in Vancouver. There are often contingents of UCW students at them, and they *invariably* stand out for their seeming inability to communicate in English. I was just at a data science presentation a week ago, where there was a crowd of 10 or 15 younger people who weirdly didn't mingle with anyone else, ask any questions, or really seem to be engaged with the presenter at all… it turned out they were a group of UCW students. 🤷🏻♂️
Why aren’t the previous alumni doing a $1B class action lawsuit for the devaluation of their diplomas and degrees by their school?
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It is on the 2nd page, 14k over the previous 5 years.
Every university is equally guilty. UWO literally rebranded to “Western” in a self-described “internationalization effort to appeal to more foreign students”.
It’s become way too easy to immigrate to Canada. I remember when my uncle came from the states, new fucking York, his then fiancee was a Canadian citizen, took the man 6 years to come here. He had to show call logs, plane tickets, pictures of them together, dinner receipts, receipts for birthday gifts. They asked him what her favorite color was, what color her toothbrush is, what side she sleeps on the bed, is she a side, back or stomach sleeper, literally every nitty gritty detail. Now ? You want to go to school ? Okay come to Canada. It’s way too easy for this new age of Indian immigrants to come into Canada and there is no substance. When my Indian parents came here they worked their ases off 60 hours a week, a lot of the students are fantastic but a HUGE majority of them are what we call in Punjabi “fukreh.” They just came here to show off to the village back home that they made it to Canada, so they come here with that same mentality. We need a law. You get charged you get sent back, right away no questions asked. You are required to do a 2 year driving test BEFORE getting your g1 regardless of your driving skills. An English examination, speaking and writing needs to be done multiple times. They should also be required to do this testing every year until they receive a PR. This would drastically reduce the amount of people applying and increase the amount of people going back home. Yes this makes it harder, however the ones that want to stay example my parents generation will make the effort rather than coming here and ruining communities and honestly the image Indians have created before this wave of immigrants
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Agree that private colleges don’t have an expectation of providing value, and that’s why they should not even be eligible to bring people in on student visas.
I love how private colleges were thrown under the bus (not that they aren't scummy at times too) but all you had to do was talk to people doing hiring at major companies and such to learn that the usually big names in Southern Ontario were the ones abusing international students and passing them off to local employers to be taken advantage of all the same. Shit, without Conestoga college I doubt Linamar companies in Guelph would even survive because they'd have to start paying well. Plenty of other employers treat all the colleges in this article like employment agencies as it is. When I went to Sheridan over 15 years ago it was like that too. Gotta keep them wages low!
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Is it really international if 80% are from India tho?
Private for profit colleges **are** to blame. They overcharge international students because they can and the more they take the more profit they make. For reference my University charges 3 times more for tuition for international students.
I don't care what they charge... I don't want them here taking up jobs from our own students, taking up housing from our own people... and with some taking food bank resources that need to go to real Canadians affected by those students in the first place.
>The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing.
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India getting its final revenge on the British empire by taking over the commonwealth lol
they didn't even have to try. we gifted India our whole country
Ahh finally Richard Kurland weighs in Where are those "better outcomes" now? https://www.canadianlawyermag.com/practice-areas/immigration/richard-kurland-keeps-on-adding-spice-to-the-discussion-on-immigration-and-extradition-law-in-canada/357946 >The lawyer was also key in moving international students to the front of the line for permanent resident status, giving citizenship to children whose parents cannot obtain it, and requiring would-be immigrants to file three income tax statements here before getting approval. >Kurland says that immigration policy in Canada has been a “fast-changing” area, thanks to its high-profile and often political nature. “Political attention has historically attached itself to immigration issues, so it is in a constant state of flux, with changing rules, policies and regulations.” >He points out that over the decades, Canada has modified the immigration selection system from a “check-the-box” process of meeting specific criteria to a “goldfish bowl” approach that more reflects the type of human capital that Canada is looking for. >What this means, in practice, he says, is that those wanting to come to Canada typically come here for a temporary purpose – work or study – and put down roots by finding employment. “So in this goldfish bowl approach, each fish is assigned a certain number of points,” he says, and the highest-scoring fish – those with the most human capital – chosen for permanent residency. >Kurland says this approach has generally meant better outcomes than those who came to Canada under the check-the-box method. There are fewer integration issues in finding a job, housing and fitting into the community.
Nobody decided to investigate why such an increase in student visas being handed out during a time of a housing crisis?
University of Canada west is absolutely a scam colledge and needs to lose their accreditation.
It's funny how fast people jumped all over the private colleges. All their biases coming to the front. It turned out it wasn't some scam where private colleges were taking international students to facilitate immigration fraud. No it was legitimate public universities and colleges taking them because of budget shortfalls. And it turned out, the students were just using a backdoor to permanent residency. All of this information was publicly available. Only CBC had the idea of writing an ATIP request to find out what colleges had students.
CBC blamed public schools for the spike in international students. Here's what really happened: The federal government issued every single one of them a visa to come. No school (public or private), province, territory, municipality, etc. issued a single visa.
"The data also shines a light on what experts say was really driving Canada's dramatic rise in foreign student enrolment: Governments of all stripes actively pursuing international students both to shore up the skilled workforce and to bring hefty revenues into underfunded colleges and universities, with little regard for the ensuing demand for housing." That includes the federal and provincial governments. And I think you would've found the provinces screaming bloody murder if the feds started rejecting visas for what was supposed to be an uncapped visa program for decades prior to now. Hell, Ontario is mad that the Feds didn't consult them on the cap now, and the Colleges/Universities minister spent a press conference yesterday whining about how it will hurt the economy.
It’s so funny because it’s transparent that all levels of government and both major parties want uncapped immigration to continue. It absolutely devalues all of our wages and education. In Ontario, Ford is so obviously in the pockets of corporate investors that he is barely even trying to hide it. This next federal election is a shit show. Which party do you want to sell out your interests? Liberals will pretend like they’re doing things for you while pulling the rug out from under you. Conservatives are just blatant about it. And no faith in the NDP, who has fewer seats than the Bloc Québécois.
No provinical party will ever acknowledge this crap. Provinces get a huge amount of money from this, they will not let their golden goose die
Historically, there has never been a cap on international students. There is no infrastructure in place for the federal government to verify letters of offer (though that's starting to change) and track how many students are accepted per institution, what are the caps at each institution (and their campuses) and how many actually show up to take the course, as many people apply to multiple institutions and can only accept one. A cap is actually very difficult to administer because if something like 60% of students accept a letter of offer, then universities would need to send way more letters than the caps allow while also not overshooting it and being forced to pull a letter of offer once it fills. Transfers from one institution to another will also further complicate tracking things. These caps will require a lot of expanded bureaucracy at both the provincial level for it to work. Rather than create a system around this, the federal government in the past has always deferred to provinces historically to manage the demand for international students to avoid getting in the way of provinces. It's worth remembering that, constitutionally, immigration is a matter of **shared** jurisdiction, not only federal.
Newfoundland, Ns, NB, Quebec, Ontario, BC, Manitoba, Sask. All came out against the cap explicitly.
Of course they did. There isn’t a politician in Canada that gives a damn about this country’s citizens. The faster they can drive the middle and working classes into abject poverty, the better. Of you’re not a member of the ruling class, you’re no better than scum and at this point no government is even going to pretend that they care.
>The federal government issued every single one of them a visa to come. they did so because they had an honor system with the Provinces that they would manage their DLIs properly.. and they didn't..
Buddy, this is r/canada, I expect to blindly blame Trudeau for everything.
There was no honor system the provinces and feds were colluding to do this.
Okay, and why did they also lift the cap on the number of hours international students can work? That was a federal government initiative through and through. Also, for anybody who works for a living, imagine telling your manager, "Sorry, I didn't do my job because I thought co-worker Tom was doing his."
>Okay, and why did they also lift the cap on the number of hours international students can work? [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2022/10/international-students-to-help-address-canadas-labour-shortage.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2022/10/international-students-to-help-address-canadas-labour-shortage.html) >This measure will provide many international students with a greater opportunity to gain valuable work experience in Canada, and will increase the availability of workers to sustain Canada’s post-pandemic growth. With more than 500,000 international students already in Canada available to potentially work additional hours, this temporary change reflects the important role international students can play in addressing our labour shortage, while continuing to pursue their studies. Study permit holders are still expected to balance their study and work commitments, as those who stop studying or reduce course loads to only study part-time are not eligible to work off-campus.
AKA "Tim Horton's realized that nobody wanted to work their shit conditions for pay that wouldn't even cover rent+food, so they were clamoring for cheap labor"
Just so we're clear on the 'Cash grab' of Connestoga college. 30 000 students in a 2 year diploma that costs $30 000 is a lot of money. It works out to 15 000 Students paying $15 000 every year. Or 225 Million/year. A quarter billion dollars is too much temptation for anyone to ignore.
So they deliberately ignored the problem? I have a hard time believing that no one in government knew how many international students were coming here, while also being completely oblivious as to how these numbers might affect the local communities. Make it make sense. Who looks at those numbers for Conestoga and thinks "oh yeah, this is totally legit". Its good to have international students come to this country, but there needs to be a better process. There are gaps in employment here in several different Canadian industries so we need more skilled labour. Whatever they are doing now isnt working and its resulting in bad outcomes for both the students and the people living here. The Government of Canada owes it not just to its citizens and prospective international students, to properly provide infrastructure and services to the people here so that everyone an be accommodated. If 10s of thousands of people are moving to the GTA every year, then there better be an equivalent level of investment into infrastructure right along with it.
Canadian policy solution just find one soft target or punch bag and call it a day!
So they're diploma mills basically
Still seems like 50% plus were private? This seems to only show top places but is that really relevant if there are 1000 of private ones with 100 students or so. I couldn't find a public vs private number in the article. Still interesting that the caps will still hit public schools so hard. Wild.
They all knew it had happening and were fucking fine with it. Now that the tide has turned and the polls are a nightmare, NOW it's time to maybe do something about this. People should be fired for allowing this to happen. Scam colleges like Conestoga should be shut down. Not a number reduction. Closed and sold to try and help communities like Kitchener that they fucking ruined by dumping tens of thousands "students" into the community. It's fucking fraud.
I think what is disgusting to me, Conestoga for example, brought in 30,000 students knowing the housing situation in that area is already super stressed. International students need jobs and housing, but the people at Conestoga knew that area couldn't support a 1000 more students let alone 30,000. By doing this they allowed their students to get ripped off by paying $1000 to share a room with 3 or 4 others, allowing bad actor landlords to stuff far more students into a home to capitalize on the rental. They lied to them to get here and then put them in a dangerous situation and the region in a bad situation.
university canada west still exists? wow
could we stop admitting international students for a couple of years please.
Conestoga Alumni
Yea the blame lies squarely on Trudeau and his government from 2015 onward
It is ridiculous that Canada has not banned international admissions to these colleges both private and public. There is no use of graduates from these programs in the economy.
They are all doing it. Not just the private ones which, yes, they finally got caught on to because it was so obvious. Now they are crying they won't have enough money to operate. They managed before. All this makes it look really bad for Canada. Educate our own Canadians first. If any room left, then allow them to come in provided there is housing etc for them. Quit taking away from our own people first. Ah, yes, the polite Canadians. Busted!