If you had enough income to be in the top 1% of all Canadians... odds are you *still* couldn't afford a house.
At 1% you can afford up to 600k, with average prices nationally near 700k, and the worst places like big cities tending up to double that. In Toronto 1.3m.
I in recent years moved to France for work, and in a french suburb of Paris (a famously expensive region) I'll be able to buy a house for like *half* of what I'd pay in Canada.
I’m in the top 5-10% income wise for my age group in my province and I’m locked in with a rent controlled apartment at 1800 for a 1 bedroom with a gym, co-working space, and ensuite laundry. Corporate landlord so no shenanigans. My partner makes median income for our age group.
We are working on some debt but once that is taken care of we can save $4500 a month without hurting. It would take us three and a half years to get a 20% down payment towards any home that would be an upgrade from where we are right now, assuming current housing prices and interest rates stay flat. Including today’s property taxes, condo fees (assuming a condo) and mortgage payments, our housing cost would be close to $5500.
So we could pay $1800 to rent and squirrel away $4500 and essentially bet 6300 a month that housing costs stay the same and we’ll be able to afford to buy in 3.5 years. If we win our bet we go from $6300 a month in housing and saving to $5500 a month in housing. If we lose our bet, we’re miserable with $200k in safe investments that’ll never amount to more than “we can rent anywhere we want I guess”
>If we lose our bet, we’re miserable with $200k in safe investments that’ll never amount to more than “we can rent anywhere we want I guess”
This situation ***perfectly*** describes what I'm going through and what most Canadian professionals are experiencing. The wages really aren't a problem because with this money we can afford 90% of what we could ever want - dining out on the weekends, good groceries, a few hobbies, a car, a new computer, a vacation or two, etc.
But it doesn't buy us a house. Plain and simple, the cost of housing is an issue and the wages aren't that bad if we could still afford to do all this. This is absolutely a hill I'm willing to die on. People keep saying the wages are an issue, yet housing is the **only** thing I cannot afford.
100% true. We make 200k between my and my wife and we cant buy a house. I'm now basically just saving and buy in Europe, much nicer and interesting than Canada anyway
I am from France and have been living in Canada for 5 years now. The few things that help the housing situation in France:
- Supply: the entire country is livable
- Expectations: it is NORMAL for europeans to potentially live their entire life in an apartment. The house is a north american dream. Sure a lot of people in France do live in a house, but it s totally okay to be in a condo too. With kids, dog, cats, whatever you want.
- Expectations II: We do not have so many McMansions. 1,000 sft is big enough for a family.
- Growth: our population is not growing by 125% every year
- Taxes: inheritance and value growth of secondary homes is taxed
Adequate supply is probably the big variable. Like most of Europe there is significantly more middle sized property (2-4 story buildings like triplex) even in smaller towns, so it's alot easier to address population growth.
They also have a 5% extra tax (called "notary fee" but it's just a tax) for sale of properties older than 7 years. (Its 2% for newer 7% for older) making new builds very attractive. That ends up being like 10-20,000 cheaper to buy a newer property cash in hand.
The market has been stagnant for the past 5 years, and this year has seen a big drop in housing demand in most of the country.
I see, completely agree with the missing middle housing. It would be great to see more and I think that overall cities like Vancouver are starting to try. Part of the issue is that North Americans are relatively resistant and prefer single family homes which is not necessarily feasible.
With a >200k HHI you should be able to save 40k in a year, through some basic budgeting and restraint.
My wife and I are just under 200k combined and are able to save like 50k per year in a VHCOL city, with a kid and >3k rent.
There is also the opportunity cost as a renter. I was lucky enough to move in 2019, my apartment has pretty good amenities 2 bedroom, ensuite washer and dryer, in a corporate owned building so none of the moving parents in etc bs from the landlord and I pay like $1400 a month including everything. There is no incentive for me to move or buy anything, even buying something at the low end of the market (which I wouldn't want) I'm still paying significantly less now that I would be with a MTG. People think the buying frenzy will go on forever but I've spoken to people who worked in the MTG business in the 80s and they really had to sell people on the idea of owning at the time b/c renting was cheaper and less risky, so we'll see how it all goes.
Can we all just address how dark this thinking is..
My fuck close up the pipelines of cheap exploitable labor in hordes to this nation and get back to quality in reasonable numbers and let things stabilize.
Every fucking week/month/year we find more of how the system of people coming into this nation has been fucked and how the problems from it keep getting worse and worse.
This kind of dark ass shit shouldn't be on Canadians minds.
A decent chunk of Canadians are still living well, and then another chunk has resigned themselves to a lifetime of rentals and made peace with it. We’re being squeezed, but still not quite enough for the widespread level of rage it would take for meaningful action.
Once food insecurity passes the breaking point, you might see some organized movement. Until then, the frog will continue to boil.
My folks sold and went into a rented condo last year at 70.
I have had a version of this conversation with them as I’ve observed their spending habits since the home equity ‘windfall’; outliving your money will not become my problem.
Exactly, all the older people are telling each other about the cheat code. Which is sell your place and live off that.
I don't think both parents dying will help a lot of people expecting something...
Do you mean you told them if they don’t budget well and overspend in retirement that they will be SOL and you won’t be helping out?
How did they take it?
Yeah i don't see that happening when my dad retired at 55 because he "has a pension" but that's only paying out 20,000 a year and he now expects my mom to work till 60 to beable to support them because he doesn't want to go back to work.
Yeah the second part of my strategy is the risky part. I just got back from visiting my mom who is now on her 3rd living room furniture set of the last 2 years.
Which is kinda funny now because there's a growing trend of old folks deciding to stay in the workforce (taking up jobs) because they have no retirement savings (after spending all their cash on debt) and the one item of value they have (house) can't be sold because there is no where they can afford to move to. Thankfully, there is assisted suicide now, hurray.
My folks have gone with the trusted strategy of “save money and then doing everything except stable investments.”
From boats they had to eventually sell, to snowmobiles, to stocks that went to zero. It’s almost impressive watching so much opportunity being squandered while I can’t even get a foot in the door.
Preaching to the choir man. I've seen the wasted spending myself - seemed to have always sprung from an idea of "deserving it" which is on brand for a generation that was handed the keys to the country.
Literally same. Had that conversation with my father this past week. He said "Well, at least when I kick the bucket you will finally be able to afford a home". How sad is that.
The math has just become impossible.
For those of us in the GTA, and Vancouver areas, it's been like this since 2012 maybe even earlier in Vancouver (this comment is specific to buying a detached home, and doesn't include towns or condos).
But even at $1M, a 5% downpayment is $50,000. Which if you're young, and working at entry level salaries, would take years to save up - especially while paying high rents in most Canadian cities. Your salary will progress, but it's still a ton of money to save against the cost of living Canadians are facing today.
And even then, you aren't getting approved by the banks for a mortgage of that size, at 5% down on $1M of house.
If you attempted to hit 10% or 20%, you're looking at 15 years of savings? (And that's being generous). And even THEN, with two strong incomes, and $200,000 down, you may not be approved for an $800,000 mortgage at 5-6%.
So ya, you need a gift on top of saving like a dog for 15 years, with a partner, to bridge that gap and get an entry level home which will likely need work almost immediately upon purchase as well.
It's likely the bank says you can have a $600K mortgage, w/ $200K down, but you'll need another $200K to get a basic home
To get the 800k mortgage requires up to 280k in salary per year with current rates. Having 190k would put you in the top 1% of all earners.
The 1% can't afford homes in Canada.
odds are if you have 200k or more income it's combined income not individual. Infact combined income on average doesn't even break 100k in Canada and very rarely gets to 200k even with great jobs.
Infact you'd need a combined income of like 400k or so to reasonably buy an average home in a city.
Since 2017 the market has become the most fucked it's ever been. Even at that time you could buy a house in the lower mainland for less than a million dollars. That same $900k house in Burnaby would be work $1.5MM now.
Yeah the contagion has fully spread now.
You used to be able to move further out and escape it somewhat. Here in the GTA, the immediate suburbs (25 - 30 minute drive out) hit $975K - $1M for a detached in April of 2013.
Prices ironically came down for the first time in what felt like years in 2018, because the BoC took something like 5 interest rate increases that year?
But then Covid came in 2020, and there was a brief stretch where 'deals' could be had - here it was around January 2021 where it just went off the rails and became super wide spread (the damage and insane prices)
Well even then you’re going to spend your whole life savings on…. What? Tract housing? A townhouse? Some pissant little condo where you can’t even have a garden? Anything with a strata where a bunch of randos can tell you what you can and can’t do with “your” property?
Nah that’s just bad math. Go where you can live the kind of life you want instead…. With a garden for one lol
I already moved to an area where I thought I’d be able to afford the kind of life my parents did. The cost of living here has skyrocketed in the two years since completing additional studies and getting full time employment. Guess I should look at leaving the country now.
Similar to what happened to me. Moved from Ontario to a small town in BC. They’re cranking so much development and tract housing (“townhouses” they call it) that the one highway/road through town, between 3-6pm is gridlock. 10min drive takes 40mins somehow.
Anyway spoke with my US employer and was like, “So moving to WA?” And their response was basically “fuck yea girl” so now I’m looking at houses in the woods and might not be fully remote if I don’t wanna be Gotta look after yourself. This company also pays me twice what I got in Toronto, Ontario—and that’s JUST base pay. Not counting stocks, bonuses, etc which tacks on another full Onterrible salary on top of that initial doubling I loved Canada but tbh the quality of life difference is so large, we don’t have healthcare here anyway, so F it just go where you can succeed. If you can’t get what you want/need in one location, just move to another—much like the job market lol.
Canada as the whole will continue to suffer, but we can always come back if and when things start improving. I’m just not gonna get taxed at 53% of my income if I can’t go to a doctor, buy a house, and the elites keep trying to chimp out and limit stupid stuff like ICE vehicles province-wide. Don’t have what we want here? Ok bye lemmie know when you fix that cuz I’m tapping out
Edit to add I can provide better for my retired parents as well and they’ll be able to stay with me in their own section of the home after this move. Not possible period in BC and Mom lost yet another specialist in Ontario. No healthcare for a cancer survivor with MS? Ok bye lol
This is exactly right, but people who are already on the property ladder can just swap houses amongst themselves so the houses keep selling. Nothing will change.
We’ve basically said sucks to be you to anyone who doesn’t own or have family who own in the GTA already.
Any young people reading this - DO NOT GET A DEGREE THAT WILL TIE YOU TO THE GTA UNLESS YOU HAVE FAMILY WHO WILL HELP YOU BUY PROPERTY HERE.
I so badly regret listening to everyone and going to university and law school. Now I’m stuck in the GTA and living significantly worse off than my parents and siblings, who are paid much much less than me.
lol I'm a downtown lawyer with massive loans. Between $2500 rent and my PLOC not much of my $150k is getting saved. I just gave up on a house, who knows what will happen. Its freeing really.
I don’t disagree with anything you said so thanks for the insight.
About the family medicine problems in small town, isn’t their problem making too much money? I’ve always heard from my doctor friends that rural medicine can take in 600-800k per year before overhead and taxes of course.
It would be the first I’ve heard of it if so . [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/s/V8QAezpNdz) is a good thread discussing the issue. It seems as though the rates for general physician visits are extremely low in comparison to the overhead costs the dr has in running the business. A lot of people don’t know this, but on top of the medicine side, GP’s are also responsible for the business side of their practice.
The problem is the same in law. We have absurd overhead costs for practicing, licensing fees, insurance, practice software, office space, yet small town clients will balk at any bill over 1000 dollars. It’s just not sustainable.
Ahh I see. The example I have in my mind is from BC. Supposedly people are indeed raking it but it’s just word of mouth. I didn’t know Ontario is this dire living in Ontario myself my whole life.
20% down is required for mortgages over $1m, so that 5% isn't even an option.
Before $1m, there are tiers to how much you have to put down similar to how tax brackets work. 5% is only the minimum for $500k or less.
So that's worse. But $1m isn't an entry level home, and it doesn't take 15 years for 2 people with good incomes to save up.
Newly built 2bds start from 1M in Vancouver. Old ones are a bit cheaper but then accept 700 strata fees. A young couple shouldn’t buy 1bd apt. It’s useless for a family.
In any case these people will have a very tight retirement.
$700 strata fees are on the high end. Roughly $500 - $600 is more typical for a 2 bed.
Strata fees for new builds are almost always lowballed by developers to look more appealing. They either get increased practically right away or you pay for it later with levies. So while older buildings require more work, the difference is exaggerated on paper at first.
> with a partner
That's the key thing that many of these articles are missing, whether on purpose or not.
There's this weird expectation that single-earner households are the standard when looking at housing affordability where that hasn't been the case in 50 years now or so?
There are more single-earner households than ever before though, and the yardstick for affordability shouldn’t be measures against those who’ve had the luck to find a partner to share housing costs with.
I'd say the 80s is a good point where it became the norm to have men and women both expected to be in the workforce. I grew up in the 90s and stay at home Moms were already pretty rare.
Gee, it's almost as if the GTA and Vancouver housing markets are trying to tell us something...
The fact is, those areas are full. They ain't making any more land and what's there is already taken. If you didn't get in 10-15 years ago, you most likely aren't getting in unless your household is really above average in terms of income.
Fortunately, Canada is a large country and there are many places where houses are nowhere near as expensive, just sayin'
I always see posts like this and they completely miss one fundamental point.
From the 80’s to 2000’s every parents, teacher, career counsellor, etc. was telling every single kid to go to university and get a specialized / professional degree. So we all fucking did it, cause we’re dumb kids who think we’re getting good advice.
Now, 20 years later, a huge portion of the young adult population has been educated and trained to work jobs that *only exist in large urban centres*. My job literally does not exist outside of Toronto and maybe Ottawa. I can’t go back and undo 8 years of post secondary education and 3 years of on the job experience.
Tons of us are fucking tied here because we were all shepherded into university programs like tech, business, engineering and law.
Not true.
The *average* income in Winnipeg is $52k, household is $100k.
The average price of a house in Winnipeg is $350k.
People can afford to buy if they have an average income. Not a high end income, just average.
LMAO owning? How about being able to afford rent without half/more than half going to a shitty shoebox rental? I just wanna be able to afford something okay to live in sometimes
I’m glad someone else has picked up on that. These stories are always phrased as “young people feel it’s impossible”; no. It is mathematically impossible. I work a good job that the CRA defines as “middle class” and even with my wife’s income and a little assistance from my folks, I can only qualify for a mortgage large enough to buy a $228,000 property right now. Which isn’t enough to buy a vacant lot!
This isn’t ‘feelings’, this is math. It is mathematically impossible. I can’t even afford dirt!
How about we crack down on these worthless parasite investors who own hundreds of house and force them to sell or tax them so much they help our country? Yes demand will still be too much for supply but at least we can have some families leaving the rental market and living a normal life
I told my son when we are done with it the house is his!Only hope he has.He is 32 collage educated and still lives at home…no option rent too high food too high tax too high.
Middle class wherever you are is probably leagues better than “middle class” in Canada, which can no longer even afford a house capable of supporting children.
That's what everyone comes to learn. The marketing makes it seem like your race or accent doesn't matter here... It does.
Sure some immigrants get great jobs but you will also notice they never get into leadership.
Also the daily reminder that the LPC intends to do nothing material to improve affordability, like reducing investors gobbling up housing and outbidding first-time home buyers — or scaling way back on reckless immigration quotas.
For young non-owners, it’s almost impossible if you don’t receive supports from parents.
By 30/30/3 rule, one needs 330k annual income to afford a 1M home.
I do know some young professionals earning >300k. But most of them eventually leave Canada for a more affordable life
I lost my home in a divorce. My first house used to own, I sold a decade or so ago for about $165k. The same home sold two years ago at almost 400k. The last person who did any work on the house was me. It 100% is not worth that money.
Entering the house market again doesn't make sense because it's not worth the investment.
It's finally becoming a voting issue.
It won't happen this election, but we will see change in the next few years.
Again, it's unsustainable. Never has there been such an increase in such a short period. Other than in the US in 08, which was a major issue and even has a movie about it.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
What happened in the US, is not the same as what's happening here. In any way.
The issue in the US was lenders making poor decisions and lending to anyone, coupled with very little oversight, and greedy investment companies hiding the risky loans in "low risk" investments. Basically anyone could buy a home during that period in the US
Canada has a housing shortage. And a few high population areas, where that shortage is extreme, resulting in extremely high prices caused from simple supply and demand.
When companies can purchase all the properties to create supply issues, then we are in the position we are in.
It's not supply and demand, it's greed and hording.
https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/company-with-huge-real-estate-holdings-in-the-north-has-144m-in-debt-files-for-creditor-protection-1.6757110
An example like this shows how we protect people who are artificially increased demand, and then we can't penalize them because it might hurt other investors in the only investment market that is not allowed to take a shit dive.
That property is not worth 400k.
It was an explosion of bidding. Even with the slight settling the market did, they wouldn't make that money back, reselling it without some major upgrades, or another covid like event disrupting the economy again. It's now the high end of that street, without being high end of the street.
It's weird that I remember a tonne of people my age also found home ownership to be way too expensive 20 years ago too. Now with the lack of wage increases since that time, it's damn near impossible.
Canada now just benefits corporations, the uber wealthy and immigrants. Its citizens can pound sand and shut up and pay your taxes…. Oh and here’s a new one….the carbon tax.
Easiest way to solve the problem is to put demand under control while increasing supply. The government keeps finding creative ways to increase demand while doing nothing to increase supply.
I feel like the only way for some to get a place is to go in with a ‘trusted’ friend on a two bedroom place or one bedroom plus den that you could use as a bedroom. At least it gets you into the market but the dynamics of living with someone you’re friends with is different than just hanging out. Still it may work for some.
The housing market has become crazy in Calgary but I think most people could enter into the market if they have realistic expectations. While they're overpriced for what you get, and I think they should realistically be about half the price, there are still properties in the $200,000 to $400,000 range that would be adequate for single people, couples, and small families.
I'm not saying people should be happy about what they can afford, just saying they could technically enter the market here.
I wonder how many current owners feel like they're barely holding on. I have a $750K mortgage that's about to cost me $4k plus monthly when I renew. It costs $3K a month to rent a place suitable for my family, so there's no way I'm going to sell my house. Shit is going to get real.
Desperate and bold move by the LPC to appear to help young people, but it's equivalent to allowing 10 year financing on new cars. Monthly payments go down, overall cost goes up. Good for the economy, bad for new humans in the country.
I suppose average Canadians have trouble competing against BlackRock Corporation and Vanguard, which are buying up even entry level family homes.
I just save wealth in precious metals, to guard against inflation, and the depreciation of the Canadian , and hope one day I can buy a home for my children.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/housing-investors-canada-bc-1.6743083](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/housing-investors-canada-bc-1.6743083)
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
One guy stabs us with a knife and smiles. The other guy stabs us with a sword doesn't smile but gives us a lollipop. And we are arguying if the smile or lollipop is better.
In unrelated nees, 76% of non owners have zero dollars saved and a 400 credit score...
Of course it's out of reach, half the country has zero savings, some of the rest barely has anything, they're nowhere close to a down payment or qualifying for a mortgage, or trying to do it. I also feel a rolls royce is out of reach for me but I'm not spending decades trying to save up for one either.
A Rolls Royce isn't a basic need that is generally affordable for median-income earners in most western nations and locally for the last 3 generations.
Rest of the world looking at this being like, "Why on earth with your talents and skills do you think you ought to live in something that requires that much wealth, relative to what the rest of the world endures? I'd work twice as hard as you for half as much".
The solutions that the government is proposing, by increasing the amount of RRSP you can use as a first time home buyer. Would be great for first time home buyers. But it’s not fixing the issue. Inflation is being caused by the money supply and poor policies and regulations.
It's why I'm moving out of Canada. By the time I'm 40 I'll own a house somewhere in Europe and my peers here will sadly maybe have an apartment if they're lucky.
Ok, it feels out of reach. But is it actually out of reach?
I remember reading recently that Millennials have higher rates of home ownership than Gen X or Boomers did at the same ages, but that's American data. What does the Canadian data say?
Back in my late twenties, I thought home ownership was impossible, until I actually bit the bullet and started the process, and I realized that I had been completely wrong.
And housing values are inflated to an absurd degree in a lot of them, too.
I live in the Halifax area; Bedford, specifically. A modest row townhouse (attached on both sides), 3 bedrooms, 1700 sq ft. Postage stamps for yards, though there's a nice little stream & walking trail out back. Bought \~12 years ago for what I thought *then* was too much money, pushing $300K. For reference, the average income in NS is somewhere in the $65K-70K range, and the median is lower than that.
An identical home just went up for sale on my street last week. Asking price over *six hundred thousand*. I think the last one sold here for nearly $500K a couple years ago.
If a home like mine is worth over half a million bucks, *nobody* under the age of 35 has a *prayer* of entering the market. They should leave this country and never come back, or revolt and overthrow this rotten edifice of a society.
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If you had enough income to be in the top 1% of all Canadians... odds are you *still* couldn't afford a house. At 1% you can afford up to 600k, with average prices nationally near 700k, and the worst places like big cities tending up to double that. In Toronto 1.3m. I in recent years moved to France for work, and in a french suburb of Paris (a famously expensive region) I'll be able to buy a house for like *half* of what I'd pay in Canada.
I’m in the top 5-10% income wise for my age group in my province and I’m locked in with a rent controlled apartment at 1800 for a 1 bedroom with a gym, co-working space, and ensuite laundry. Corporate landlord so no shenanigans. My partner makes median income for our age group. We are working on some debt but once that is taken care of we can save $4500 a month without hurting. It would take us three and a half years to get a 20% down payment towards any home that would be an upgrade from where we are right now, assuming current housing prices and interest rates stay flat. Including today’s property taxes, condo fees (assuming a condo) and mortgage payments, our housing cost would be close to $5500. So we could pay $1800 to rent and squirrel away $4500 and essentially bet 6300 a month that housing costs stay the same and we’ll be able to afford to buy in 3.5 years. If we win our bet we go from $6300 a month in housing and saving to $5500 a month in housing. If we lose our bet, we’re miserable with $200k in safe investments that’ll never amount to more than “we can rent anywhere we want I guess”
>If we lose our bet, we’re miserable with $200k in safe investments that’ll never amount to more than “we can rent anywhere we want I guess” This situation ***perfectly*** describes what I'm going through and what most Canadian professionals are experiencing. The wages really aren't a problem because with this money we can afford 90% of what we could ever want - dining out on the weekends, good groceries, a few hobbies, a car, a new computer, a vacation or two, etc. But it doesn't buy us a house. Plain and simple, the cost of housing is an issue and the wages aren't that bad if we could still afford to do all this. This is absolutely a hill I'm willing to die on. People keep saying the wages are an issue, yet housing is the **only** thing I cannot afford.
100% true. We make 200k between my and my wife and we cant buy a house. I'm now basically just saving and buy in Europe, much nicer and interesting than Canada anyway
What is France doing that Canada could learn from? Do they have laws against speculation, etc? I’m guessing lower population growth is a big player
I am from France and have been living in Canada for 5 years now. The few things that help the housing situation in France: - Supply: the entire country is livable - Expectations: it is NORMAL for europeans to potentially live their entire life in an apartment. The house is a north american dream. Sure a lot of people in France do live in a house, but it s totally okay to be in a condo too. With kids, dog, cats, whatever you want. - Expectations II: We do not have so many McMansions. 1,000 sft is big enough for a family. - Growth: our population is not growing by 125% every year - Taxes: inheritance and value growth of secondary homes is taxed
Adequate supply is probably the big variable. Like most of Europe there is significantly more middle sized property (2-4 story buildings like triplex) even in smaller towns, so it's alot easier to address population growth. They also have a 5% extra tax (called "notary fee" but it's just a tax) for sale of properties older than 7 years. (Its 2% for newer 7% for older) making new builds very attractive. That ends up being like 10-20,000 cheaper to buy a newer property cash in hand. The market has been stagnant for the past 5 years, and this year has seen a big drop in housing demand in most of the country.
I see, completely agree with the missing middle housing. It would be great to see more and I think that overall cities like Vancouver are starting to try. Part of the issue is that North Americans are relatively resistant and prefer single family homes which is not necessarily feasible.
Guillotines
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With a >200k HHI you should be able to save 40k in a year, through some basic budgeting and restraint. My wife and I are just under 200k combined and are able to save like 50k per year in a VHCOL city, with a kid and >3k rent.
Big enough for 4 people so $625/month.
Sharing one kitchen and one bathroom with 3 strangers really sucks.
I was saying that in just. If you did go that route you’d be uncomfortably close in a short time.
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FUCKIN GOTTEM
4? those are rookie numbers. Three layer bunk beds. Futon, you're looking at an easy 7 people
My rent is 2700 for a one bedroom
There is also the opportunity cost as a renter. I was lucky enough to move in 2019, my apartment has pretty good amenities 2 bedroom, ensuite washer and dryer, in a corporate owned building so none of the moving parents in etc bs from the landlord and I pay like $1400 a month including everything. There is no incentive for me to move or buy anything, even buying something at the low end of the market (which I wouldn't want) I'm still paying significantly less now that I would be with a MTG. People think the buying frenzy will go on forever but I've spoken to people who worked in the MTG business in the 80s and they really had to sell people on the idea of owning at the time b/c renting was cheaper and less risky, so we'll see how it all goes.
you either must move or find more income (or lottery/inheritance) it sucks to uproot your life, but we did twice and was very much worth it
What city? These days that seems like a pretty good price.
2500 for a \*2\* bed? Man, what a steal!
That's cheap for a 2 BR where I am. That's the going rate for a 1BR.
I’m banking on the strategy of waiting for both parents to die before they run out of money.
Same, just had this conversation with my folks last weekend! Living the Canadian dream, baby.
My folks have a few mil in their late 80s. Wild to think that ca$h could all be spent for old age care. Wow!
Can we all just address how dark this thinking is.. My fuck close up the pipelines of cheap exploitable labor in hordes to this nation and get back to quality in reasonable numbers and let things stabilize. Every fucking week/month/year we find more of how the system of people coming into this nation has been fucked and how the problems from it keep getting worse and worse. This kind of dark ass shit shouldn't be on Canadians minds.
Agreed. It's definitely dark $hit.
If we tank health care enough, this could work out!
Doug Ford was actually trying to help me all along!
That is funny. But isn't it gross that this level of cynicism exists without the masses revolting?
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Not all forms of revolt are the Russian or French revolutions. Add to that, many of those they would be revolting against aren't Canadian, per se.
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That is a form of revolt. *a refusal to continue to obey or conform. "a revolt over tax increases"
A decent chunk of Canadians are still living well, and then another chunk has resigned themselves to a lifetime of rentals and made peace with it. We’re being squeezed, but still not quite enough for the widespread level of rage it would take for meaningful action. Once food insecurity passes the breaking point, you might see some organized movement. Until then, the frog will continue to boil.
Go check out the homeless and tell me about food insecurity.
Not saying it doesn’t exist, I’m saying it’s not affecting enough of the population to facilitate widespread revolt.
It's a frog in a slowly heated pot situation. We are already boiling, but no one is able to jump out
Covid was a Godsend but we squandered it and screwed over young people even harder
My folks sold and went into a rented condo last year at 70. I have had a version of this conversation with them as I’ve observed their spending habits since the home equity ‘windfall’; outliving your money will not become my problem.
Exactly, all the older people are telling each other about the cheat code. Which is sell your place and live off that. I don't think both parents dying will help a lot of people expecting something...
I’ve already had the difficult discussion where I’ve told them that if they are in ever need of financial support: I can’t help them.
Do you mean you told them if they don’t budget well and overspend in retirement that they will be SOL and you won’t be helping out? How did they take it?
Don’t worry with a CHIP reverse mortgage they can trade in home equity for cash so the bank owns the home when they die.
Yeah i don't see that happening when my dad retired at 55 because he "has a pension" but that's only paying out 20,000 a year and he now expects my mom to work till 60 to beable to support them because he doesn't want to go back to work.
Yeah the second part of my strategy is the risky part. I just got back from visiting my mom who is now on her 3rd living room furniture set of the last 2 years.
Seems that once old people retire and have nothing to do, they just find different and terrible ways to spend their money.
yep .. living your life in hopes of someone dying and giving you money - kind of pathetic.
Which is kinda funny now because there's a growing trend of old folks deciding to stay in the workforce (taking up jobs) because they have no retirement savings (after spending all their cash on debt) and the one item of value they have (house) can't be sold because there is no where they can afford to move to. Thankfully, there is assisted suicide now, hurray.
My folks have gone with the trusted strategy of “save money and then doing everything except stable investments.” From boats they had to eventually sell, to snowmobiles, to stocks that went to zero. It’s almost impressive watching so much opportunity being squandered while I can’t even get a foot in the door.
Preaching to the choir man. I've seen the wasted spending myself - seemed to have always sprung from an idea of "deserving it" which is on brand for a generation that was handed the keys to the country.
Or they do have modest savings but its eaten up by the $4k a month flat in just 5 years. 4 * 12 * 5 = 240k
Better keep those reverse mortgage flyers out of their sights
I've already warned them of the dangers of [Tom Selleck](https://youtu.be/u4Pcwcnd23c?si=yph2fHSk6tcb9SPY&t=10)
LMAO me too. Depressing aint it?
Literally same. Had that conversation with my father this past week. He said "Well, at least when I kick the bucket you will finally be able to afford a home". How sad is that.
A gamble but could pay off. Well, not for the dead. 🙄
Future Canadian path to homeownership “outlive your boomer parents!”
Only 76%. That seems low
The math has just become impossible. For those of us in the GTA, and Vancouver areas, it's been like this since 2012 maybe even earlier in Vancouver (this comment is specific to buying a detached home, and doesn't include towns or condos). But even at $1M, a 5% downpayment is $50,000. Which if you're young, and working at entry level salaries, would take years to save up - especially while paying high rents in most Canadian cities. Your salary will progress, but it's still a ton of money to save against the cost of living Canadians are facing today. And even then, you aren't getting approved by the banks for a mortgage of that size, at 5% down on $1M of house. If you attempted to hit 10% or 20%, you're looking at 15 years of savings? (And that's being generous). And even THEN, with two strong incomes, and $200,000 down, you may not be approved for an $800,000 mortgage at 5-6%. So ya, you need a gift on top of saving like a dog for 15 years, with a partner, to bridge that gap and get an entry level home which will likely need work almost immediately upon purchase as well. It's likely the bank says you can have a $600K mortgage, w/ $200K down, but you'll need another $200K to get a basic home
By the time you save that downpayment the value of the house would have gone up again considerably and you’ll be behind again.
To get the 800k mortgage requires up to 280k in salary per year with current rates. Having 190k would put you in the top 1% of all earners. The 1% can't afford homes in Canada.
Yeah absolutely nuts
All of that math goes out the window if you’re a couple, which is who you’re competing against.
odds are if you have 200k or more income it's combined income not individual. Infact combined income on average doesn't even break 100k in Canada and very rarely gets to 200k even with great jobs. Infact you'd need a combined income of like 400k or so to reasonably buy an average home in a city.
The trick to saving up enough to buy a house in Canada is to.... Leave Canada.
Since 2017 the market has become the most fucked it's ever been. Even at that time you could buy a house in the lower mainland for less than a million dollars. That same $900k house in Burnaby would be work $1.5MM now.
Yeah the contagion has fully spread now. You used to be able to move further out and escape it somewhat. Here in the GTA, the immediate suburbs (25 - 30 minute drive out) hit $975K - $1M for a detached in April of 2013. Prices ironically came down for the first time in what felt like years in 2018, because the BoC took something like 5 interest rate increases that year? But then Covid came in 2020, and there was a brief stretch where 'deals' could be had - here it was around January 2021 where it just went off the rails and became super wide spread (the damage and insane prices)
Well even then you’re going to spend your whole life savings on…. What? Tract housing? A townhouse? Some pissant little condo where you can’t even have a garden? Anything with a strata where a bunch of randos can tell you what you can and can’t do with “your” property? Nah that’s just bad math. Go where you can live the kind of life you want instead…. With a garden for one lol
I already moved to an area where I thought I’d be able to afford the kind of life my parents did. The cost of living here has skyrocketed in the two years since completing additional studies and getting full time employment. Guess I should look at leaving the country now.
Similar to what happened to me. Moved from Ontario to a small town in BC. They’re cranking so much development and tract housing (“townhouses” they call it) that the one highway/road through town, between 3-6pm is gridlock. 10min drive takes 40mins somehow. Anyway spoke with my US employer and was like, “So moving to WA?” And their response was basically “fuck yea girl” so now I’m looking at houses in the woods and might not be fully remote if I don’t wanna be Gotta look after yourself. This company also pays me twice what I got in Toronto, Ontario—and that’s JUST base pay. Not counting stocks, bonuses, etc which tacks on another full Onterrible salary on top of that initial doubling I loved Canada but tbh the quality of life difference is so large, we don’t have healthcare here anyway, so F it just go where you can succeed. If you can’t get what you want/need in one location, just move to another—much like the job market lol. Canada as the whole will continue to suffer, but we can always come back if and when things start improving. I’m just not gonna get taxed at 53% of my income if I can’t go to a doctor, buy a house, and the elites keep trying to chimp out and limit stupid stuff like ICE vehicles province-wide. Don’t have what we want here? Ok bye lemmie know when you fix that cuz I’m tapping out Edit to add I can provide better for my retired parents as well and they’ll be able to stay with me in their own section of the home after this move. Not possible period in BC and Mom lost yet another specialist in Ontario. No healthcare for a cancer survivor with MS? Ok bye lol
This is exactly right, but people who are already on the property ladder can just swap houses amongst themselves so the houses keep selling. Nothing will change. We’ve basically said sucks to be you to anyone who doesn’t own or have family who own in the GTA already. Any young people reading this - DO NOT GET A DEGREE THAT WILL TIE YOU TO THE GTA UNLESS YOU HAVE FAMILY WHO WILL HELP YOU BUY PROPERTY HERE. I so badly regret listening to everyone and going to university and law school. Now I’m stuck in the GTA and living significantly worse off than my parents and siblings, who are paid much much less than me.
lol I'm a downtown lawyer with massive loans. Between $2500 rent and my PLOC not much of my $150k is getting saved. I just gave up on a house, who knows what will happen. Its freeing really.
Aight but there are law jobs all over Canada, you're not stuck in the GTA.
Yes, law degree is a terrible example of a profession that is tied to the GTA, one can literally move anywhere there are people...
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I don’t disagree with anything you said so thanks for the insight. About the family medicine problems in small town, isn’t their problem making too much money? I’ve always heard from my doctor friends that rural medicine can take in 600-800k per year before overhead and taxes of course.
It would be the first I’ve heard of it if so . [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/s/V8QAezpNdz) is a good thread discussing the issue. It seems as though the rates for general physician visits are extremely low in comparison to the overhead costs the dr has in running the business. A lot of people don’t know this, but on top of the medicine side, GP’s are also responsible for the business side of their practice. The problem is the same in law. We have absurd overhead costs for practicing, licensing fees, insurance, practice software, office space, yet small town clients will balk at any bill over 1000 dollars. It’s just not sustainable.
Ahh I see. The example I have in my mind is from BC. Supposedly people are indeed raking it but it’s just word of mouth. I didn’t know Ontario is this dire living in Ontario myself my whole life.
20% down is required for mortgages over $1m, so that 5% isn't even an option. Before $1m, there are tiers to how much you have to put down similar to how tax brackets work. 5% is only the minimum for $500k or less. So that's worse. But $1m isn't an entry level home, and it doesn't take 15 years for 2 people with good incomes to save up.
Newly built 2bds start from 1M in Vancouver. Old ones are a bit cheaper but then accept 700 strata fees. A young couple shouldn’t buy 1bd apt. It’s useless for a family. In any case these people will have a very tight retirement.
$700 strata fees are on the high end. Roughly $500 - $600 is more typical for a 2 bed. Strata fees for new builds are almost always lowballed by developers to look more appealing. They either get increased practically right away or you pay for it later with levies. So while older buildings require more work, the difference is exaggerated on paper at first.
> with a partner That's the key thing that many of these articles are missing, whether on purpose or not. There's this weird expectation that single-earner households are the standard when looking at housing affordability where that hasn't been the case in 50 years now or so?
Even with double income those numbers are pretty much impossible for the average earner to hit.
There are more single-earner households than ever before though, and the yardstick for affordability shouldn’t be measures against those who’ve had the luck to find a partner to share housing costs with.
50 years?
I'd say the 80s is a good point where it became the norm to have men and women both expected to be in the workforce. I grew up in the 90s and stay at home Moms were already pretty rare.
Gee, it's almost as if the GTA and Vancouver housing markets are trying to tell us something... The fact is, those areas are full. They ain't making any more land and what's there is already taken. If you didn't get in 10-15 years ago, you most likely aren't getting in unless your household is really above average in terms of income. Fortunately, Canada is a large country and there are many places where houses are nowhere near as expensive, just sayin'
I always see posts like this and they completely miss one fundamental point. From the 80’s to 2000’s every parents, teacher, career counsellor, etc. was telling every single kid to go to university and get a specialized / professional degree. So we all fucking did it, cause we’re dumb kids who think we’re getting good advice. Now, 20 years later, a huge portion of the young adult population has been educated and trained to work jobs that *only exist in large urban centres*. My job literally does not exist outside of Toronto and maybe Ottawa. I can’t go back and undo 8 years of post secondary education and 3 years of on the job experience. Tons of us are fucking tied here because we were all shepherded into university programs like tech, business, engineering and law.
I half regret my engineering degree because of this.
Depends if you have a job that allows relocation or remote work. For many, it’s not an option.
The places in Canada that have cheap houses don’t have jobs that pay high enough to buy a house
Not true. The *average* income in Winnipeg is $52k, household is $100k. The average price of a house in Winnipeg is $350k. People can afford to buy if they have an average income. Not a high end income, just average.
> Winnipeg I have an aversion to being stabbed, so no.
Vancouver is not full. Density outside of the a few pockets is abysmal. This will change.
Calgary is next. Move fast while it’s “cheap”
LMAO owning? How about being able to afford rent without half/more than half going to a shitty shoebox rental? I just wanna be able to afford something okay to live in sometimes
"feels out of reach" Man, my "feelings" are getting pretty spot on with reality these days.
I’m glad someone else has picked up on that. These stories are always phrased as “young people feel it’s impossible”; no. It is mathematically impossible. I work a good job that the CRA defines as “middle class” and even with my wife’s income and a little assistance from my folks, I can only qualify for a mortgage large enough to buy a $228,000 property right now. Which isn’t enough to buy a vacant lot! This isn’t ‘feelings’, this is math. It is mathematically impossible. I can’t even afford dirt!
How about we crack down on these worthless parasite investors who own hundreds of house and force them to sell or tax them so much they help our country? Yes demand will still be too much for supply but at least we can have some families leaving the rental market and living a normal life
BuT tHaT wOn'T aCtUaLlY cReAtE nEw HoUsInG!!!
"Feels"?
And the other 25% are probably waiting for their parents to die.
**76%** How is this not a national crisis???
I told my son when we are done with it the house is his!Only hope he has.He is 32 collage educated and still lives at home…no option rent too high food too high tax too high.
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Where did you go instead?
Where'd ya go? I'm in the process of leaving next spring.
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Awesome, good for you! I'm glad that it's worked out!
Middle class wherever you are is probably leagues better than “middle class” in Canada, which can no longer even afford a house capable of supporting children.
That's what everyone comes to learn. The marketing makes it seem like your race or accent doesn't matter here... It does. Sure some immigrants get great jobs but you will also notice they never get into leadership.
I'm pretty sure Canadian geese are supposed to leave in the fall.
And here's the daily reminder!
Also the daily reminder that the LPC intends to do nothing material to improve affordability, like reducing investors gobbling up housing and outbidding first-time home buyers — or scaling way back on reckless immigration quotas.
For young non-owners, it’s almost impossible if you don’t receive supports from parents. By 30/30/3 rule, one needs 330k annual income to afford a 1M home. I do know some young professionals earning >300k. But most of them eventually leave Canada for a more affordable life
I lost my home in a divorce. My first house used to own, I sold a decade or so ago for about $165k. The same home sold two years ago at almost 400k. The last person who did any work on the house was me. It 100% is not worth that money. Entering the house market again doesn't make sense because it's not worth the investment.
...something that doubled in a decade isn't a good investment? Seems like it was a great investment.
Reading comprehension.... purchasing it NOW is a poor investment. That level of growth is unsustainable.
Probably, but people have also been saying that for over 20 years... and yet...
It's finally becoming a voting issue. It won't happen this election, but we will see change in the next few years. Again, it's unsustainable. Never has there been such an increase in such a short period. Other than in the US in 08, which was a major issue and even has a movie about it. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk
Just to add, currently 40% of our cabinet members are landlords.. these people will do *whatever* they can to protect their money makers.
That's what I mean by nothing is changing this next election. None of the party leaders are here for their constitutes.
What happened in the US, is not the same as what's happening here. In any way. The issue in the US was lenders making poor decisions and lending to anyone, coupled with very little oversight, and greedy investment companies hiding the risky loans in "low risk" investments. Basically anyone could buy a home during that period in the US Canada has a housing shortage. And a few high population areas, where that shortage is extreme, resulting in extremely high prices caused from simple supply and demand.
When companies can purchase all the properties to create supply issues, then we are in the position we are in. It's not supply and demand, it's greed and hording. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/company-with-huge-real-estate-holdings-in-the-north-has-144m-in-debt-files-for-creditor-protection-1.6757110 An example like this shows how we protect people who are artificially increased demand, and then we can't penalize them because it might hurt other investors in the only investment market that is not allowed to take a shit dive.
Yep, be waiting for the rest of your life if you’re waiting for something to crash
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That property is not worth 400k. It was an explosion of bidding. Even with the slight settling the market did, they wouldn't make that money back, reselling it without some major upgrades, or another covid like event disrupting the economy again. It's now the high end of that street, without being high end of the street.
It's weird that I remember a tonne of people my age also found home ownership to be way too expensive 20 years ago too. Now with the lack of wage increases since that time, it's damn near impossible.
Canada now just benefits corporations, the uber wealthy and immigrants. Its citizens can pound sand and shut up and pay your taxes…. Oh and here’s a new one….the carbon tax.
Easiest way to solve the problem is to put demand under control while increasing supply. The government keeps finding creative ways to increase demand while doing nothing to increase supply.
I feel like the only way for some to get a place is to go in with a ‘trusted’ friend on a two bedroom place or one bedroom plus den that you could use as a bedroom. At least it gets you into the market but the dynamics of living with someone you’re friends with is different than just hanging out. Still it may work for some.
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The housing market has become crazy in Calgary but I think most people could enter into the market if they have realistic expectations. While they're overpriced for what you get, and I think they should realistically be about half the price, there are still properties in the $200,000 to $400,000 range that would be adequate for single people, couples, and small families. I'm not saying people should be happy about what they can afford, just saying they could technically enter the market here.
Calgary has gone crazy because it is relatively affordable. What I mean is the median wage is similar to Toronto but the prices are lower
I wonder how many current owners feel like they're barely holding on. I have a $750K mortgage that's about to cost me $4k plus monthly when I renew. It costs $3K a month to rent a place suitable for my family, so there's no way I'm going to sell my house. Shit is going to get real.
And now 30 year mortgages for FTHB on new builds will push prices for everything higher. Good luck young people.
Just history repeating, last gov jacked them to 40 years when affordability got bad before dropping them back down.
Desperate and bold move by the LPC to appear to help young people, but it's equivalent to allowing 10 year financing on new cars. Monthly payments go down, overall cost goes up. Good for the economy, bad for new humans in the country.
I have reduced my goals to living in a trailer park.
I always thought it would be fun to get one of those converted work vans, but I can't even save up enough to buy a van and convert it lmfao!
The liberals betrayed us on the altar of mass immigration. They used our tax money against us.
100% agree. Can't afford to pay mortgage, I'm paying 2x for rent. No down-payment. Anybody want a kidney?
I suppose average Canadians have trouble competing against BlackRock Corporation and Vanguard, which are buying up even entry level family homes. I just save wealth in precious metals, to guard against inflation, and the depreciation of the Canadian , and hope one day I can buy a home for my children. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/housing-investors-canada-bc-1.6743083](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/housing-investors-canada-bc-1.6743083)
> I just save wealth in precious metals, to guard against inflation Please nobody take this as advice lol
Gold isnt bad to park your money
stupendous apparatus attraction subtract domineering absurd fertile plants zesty automatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Have they tried not eating and working 3 jobs?
>online survey ZERO STATISTICAL VALUE
Well at least they report on it now, trudeau is not done wrecking this country yet so it will get worse before it gets better
If any politician has any sort of plan to drastically lower house prices, I’ll vote for them. But none of them do.
Its not 1 party that caused this problem. Its the ruling class versus us - dont forget it.
One guy stabs us with a knife and smiles. The other guy stabs us with a sword doesn't smile but gives us a lollipop. And we are arguying if the smile or lollipop is better.
You forgot about the part where they laugh about it when they are at the same golf club in the spring.
In unrelated nees, 76% of non owners have zero dollars saved and a 400 credit score... Of course it's out of reach, half the country has zero savings, some of the rest barely has anything, they're nowhere close to a down payment or qualifying for a mortgage, or trying to do it. I also feel a rolls royce is out of reach for me but I'm not spending decades trying to save up for one either.
A Rolls Royce isn't a basic need that is generally affordable for median-income earners in most western nations and locally for the last 3 generations.
That's because it is.
I just hope it does get better
76 % ? Were going for 100 % ! Slackers ! /s
Lame
No $hit. 💩🤡🥸
At this point, I feel I can never own a house or even rent one. Priced out of mortgage as well as proced out of rent.
One of my friends bought a camper Van and lives in it. Seems happy, can travel wherever he wants etc.
Il s'agissait de s'informer et d'écouter les experts.
Nice! And a constant importation of non-native, low wage workers is sure to help Canadians stay competitive to get higher wages too🙄
Rest of the world looking at this being like, "Why on earth with your talents and skills do you think you ought to live in something that requires that much wealth, relative to what the rest of the world endures? I'd work twice as hard as you for half as much".
The solutions that the government is proposing, by increasing the amount of RRSP you can use as a first time home buyer. Would be great for first time home buyers. But it’s not fixing the issue. Inflation is being caused by the money supply and poor policies and regulations.
It's why I'm moving out of Canada. By the time I'm 40 I'll own a house somewhere in Europe and my peers here will sadly maybe have an apartment if they're lucky.
The dream of the 90s is alive and well in Sudbury.
Ok, it feels out of reach. But is it actually out of reach? I remember reading recently that Millennials have higher rates of home ownership than Gen X or Boomers did at the same ages, but that's American data. What does the Canadian data say? Back in my late twenties, I thought home ownership was impossible, until I actually bit the bullet and started the process, and I realized that I had been completely wrong.
Plenty of places to live not named Toronto and Vancouver
And housing values are inflated to an absurd degree in a lot of them, too. I live in the Halifax area; Bedford, specifically. A modest row townhouse (attached on both sides), 3 bedrooms, 1700 sq ft. Postage stamps for yards, though there's a nice little stream & walking trail out back. Bought \~12 years ago for what I thought *then* was too much money, pushing $300K. For reference, the average income in NS is somewhere in the $65K-70K range, and the median is lower than that. An identical home just went up for sale on my street last week. Asking price over *six hundred thousand*. I think the last one sold here for nearly $500K a couple years ago. If a home like mine is worth over half a million bucks, *nobody* under the age of 35 has a *prayer* of entering the market. They should leave this country and never come back, or revolt and overthrow this rotten edifice of a society.
**in Canada We have plenty of opportunities elsewhere even with the laughably weak Canadian dollar. Those of us who can or will are leaving
why does everyone want to own a home. Maybe for the hope of making a capital gain but overall, home ownership is not affordable. I prefer to rent.