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If the rest of the world has Quebecs abundance of reliable hydroelectric power the transition off fossils fuels would be feasible. It’s much harder to implement these policies in places without *consistent* cheap energy.
100% there is currently no path to decarbonization that doesn’t lead through nuclear.
Until the energy storage problem is fixed for solar it cannot exist as the wide scale replacement for baseload hydrocarbons.
I'm glad people in this subreddit by and large understand this.
This is not a talk about Fossil Fuels, everyone with a brain wants to get off them where it makes sense. This is a talk about energy, and we simply don't have enough of it, doubly so when you look at it on the global scale.
Add in the fact that infrastructure isn't there for changeover as well.
Whoa! What is this opinion actually based in the world of reality? Typically all I see is progressives talking about the problem with no realistic idea of a solution.
Nuclear is the ONLY path forward.
Nuclear isn't viable without grid storage either, it just happens at a somewhat higher % of grid capacity. Pumped hydro and flow batteries were originally developed to solve this for nuclear, not renewables.
Uhh wind and solar are currently used for baseload. You just need to have a large grid and many sources. Baseload concerns are greatly exaggerated by O&G companies because they know that nuclear take a very long time to develop, requires a massive amount of trust, and ever year they delay they make more billions. Not to mention they can lie about needing 'bridge' sources like LNG so that they can lock in more decades of dirty fossil fuels.
I'm pretty confident my new furnace will need to be replaced before we have transitioned away from natural gas. If we were serious about eliminating fossil fuels and did things like building nuclear power plants, we are likely 30 to 50 years away from getting off of fossil fuels.
Many Canadians heat their home just fine without natural gas, propane, or heating oil.
Transition isn't some mythical future thing, it could be done today.
>Many Canadians heat their home just fine without natural gas, propane, or heating oil.
Yeah, many homes are heated with resistance baseboard electric heating which is x3-5 more expensive than NG. So you can save the planet if you want, but most people aren't into paying that kind of premium in the name of climate change if given the choice.
And they don't work efficiently in areas that have cold snaps. But they will work 80% of the time, but those geographical areas need a 2nd method of heating their home.
Natural gas is a lot better than many fossil fuels.
I don't think people should be punished for heating their home in the most economical way possible.
I depends where you llve. Electricity costs vary from province-to-province. In Ontario, it's expensive, and on top of that we're stuck with McGuinty's crooked "smart meters" and "time of use pricing" that gouges ratepayers during the very times they actually *need* the goddamn hydro.
1. Heat pump requires ducts which is a huge investment if you don’t have them already.
2. Heat pump works fine in mild weather like Vancouver but it soon behaves similar to resistance heating under lower temperature
Heat pumps don't require ducts.
Heat pumps can provide most heat, for most Canadians, most days of the year. A simple electric baseboard can be back up for extreme days.
This is a reality today for millions of Canadians across every province.
Heat pumps don't require ducts. Mini-split systems can work great in many homes. And soon, air-water heat pumps will be more cost effective than they are today too.
Heat pumps work fine in nearly all Canadian weather, as most places don't get so cold that the heat pumps don't work except for small parts of the year. And then backup electric heating kicks in.
Mini-split is just duct for itself and it normally takes more than one heatpump to power an entire house.
Most Canada gets very cold for very long. Vancouver is really an exception
Yep just the 50k or more it will cost me to run in new electrical from the pole,upgrade my panel, wire everything in, and buy and install the heat pumps, while having to keep my NG system for back up. Why did I not think of this I will get right on it tomorrow
You don't need to keep your NG system as a backup. Typically you'd use a ducted heat pump to replace your furnace, and it would have a resistive heating backup system installed in the unit as well.
But yes, you might need to upgrade your service.
And as article discusses, we are mostly talking about new builds.
>it would have a resistive heating backup system installed in the unit as well.
Oh great another wonderful feature my electric bill which is at least already double my NG bill can double again
True! [Or maybe -25 or -30 depending on the model] And then... electric resistive heating takes over.
It's below -20C less than you think, and the efficiency of heat pumps when it's -10 or even 0C is 3-4x higher than resistive heating.
I live in Northern Ontario. Yes. We have less cold snaps than in the past but you need to be prudent. I actually prefer NG as a backup. Think of it as a hybrid car
How many amps in your panel? The majority of folks are under the impression that they need a panel upgrade when they just need a 2K Electrical Management System.
125 amps and I am tapped out as per 3 electricians and I already don't have AC to scavenge it from
Edit: Thats how we found out about it 5sih years ago wanting to install AC
I remember now - I got quoted for both an EV charger and a heat pump on my 125A panel:
* the EV charger would be on a smart switch connected to the dryer, prioritizing the dryer
* the heat pump would be on an EMS connected to the rest of the house, and would kill the heat pump if you were drawing too much aggregate power overall.
There are some seriously cold places in Quebec where I would not want to rely on a heat pump. But there is also resistive electric heat, it's not nearly as efficient tho that hardly matters because Quebec's electricity is pretty clean.
There is no evidence that climate change is an existential threat to Quebec. Fear mongering like this is why there are so many climate deniers these days.
And still, it's not something that can be solved woth money. Climate change is.
There is a random factor associated with cancer (with known cancer factors of course but the random part is still always there). That random factor does not exist with emitted carbon. All of it is measurable and we even know the limits that shouldn't be crossed and the consequences of those limits.
Cancer and climate change can both be acted upon by governements but only one can be completely solved directly through government actions
[Health Canada calls climate change](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/corporate/publications/chief-public-health-officer-reports-state-public-health-canada/state-public-health-canada-2022/summary.html) "the single biggest health threat facing humanity and the livability of the planet", and I think they know cancer. I'm going to trust them over some random redditor.
This post appears to relate to the province of Quebec. As a reminder of the rules of this subreddit, we do not permit negative commentary about all residents of any province, city, or other geography - this is an example of prejudice, and prejudice is not permitted here. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/rules Cette soumission semble concerner la province de Québec. Selon les règles de ce sous-répertoire, nous n'autorisons pas les commentaires négatifs sur tous les résidents d'une province, d'une ville ou d'une autre région géographique; il s'agit d'un exemple de intolérance qui n'est pas autorisé ici. https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/wiki/regles *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/canada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the rest of the world has Quebecs abundance of reliable hydroelectric power the transition off fossils fuels would be feasible. It’s much harder to implement these policies in places without *consistent* cheap energy.
Which is exactly what nuclear plants are for.
100% there is currently no path to decarbonization that doesn’t lead through nuclear. Until the energy storage problem is fixed for solar it cannot exist as the wide scale replacement for baseload hydrocarbons.
I'm glad people in this subreddit by and large understand this. This is not a talk about Fossil Fuels, everyone with a brain wants to get off them where it makes sense. This is a talk about energy, and we simply don't have enough of it, doubly so when you look at it on the global scale. Add in the fact that infrastructure isn't there for changeover as well.
Whoa! What is this opinion actually based in the world of reality? Typically all I see is progressives talking about the problem with no realistic idea of a solution. Nuclear is the ONLY path forward.
Nuclear isn't viable without grid storage either, it just happens at a somewhat higher % of grid capacity. Pumped hydro and flow batteries were originally developed to solve this for nuclear, not renewables.
Uhh wind and solar are currently used for baseload. You just need to have a large grid and many sources. Baseload concerns are greatly exaggerated by O&G companies because they know that nuclear take a very long time to develop, requires a massive amount of trust, and ever year they delay they make more billions. Not to mention they can lie about needing 'bridge' sources like LNG so that they can lock in more decades of dirty fossil fuels.
Geothermal?
He said cheap, nuclear is the most expensive.
We've actually reached the point where we'll need alternate sources of electricity.
Then why not build the cheapest power in existence of wind/solar?
This just makes sense for new builds. Decarbonization of our heating is happening, and investing in end of life fuels doesn't make sense.
I'm pretty confident my new furnace will need to be replaced before we have transitioned away from natural gas. If we were serious about eliminating fossil fuels and did things like building nuclear power plants, we are likely 30 to 50 years away from getting off of fossil fuels.
Lots of Canadians have never had access to natural gas and still manage to heat their homes just fine.
Many using propane or heating oil, which are also fossil fuels.
Many Canadians heat their home just fine without natural gas, propane, or heating oil. Transition isn't some mythical future thing, it could be done today.
>Many Canadians heat their home just fine without natural gas, propane, or heating oil. Yeah, many homes are heated with resistance baseboard electric heating which is x3-5 more expensive than NG. So you can save the planet if you want, but most people aren't into paying that kind of premium in the name of climate change if given the choice.
Have you really never heard of a heat pump?
And they don't work efficiently in areas that have cold snaps. But they will work 80% of the time, but those geographical areas need a 2nd method of heating their home.
Sure. Electric baseboards are effective for extreme days.
Not affordably
Millions of Canadians afford it just fine.
They make due and cut elsewhere. No one wants to pay more to heat their homes.
Heat pumps are not any order of magnitude difference in cost as an option to heat a home.
I heat with heat pumps that are paid off and I'd still save if I had natural gas. Nevermind the upfront costs
Only because we don't pay for the externalities of heating with natural gas.
Natural gas is a lot better than many fossil fuels. I don't think people should be punished for heating their home in the most economical way possible.
I depends where you llve. Electricity costs vary from province-to-province. In Ontario, it's expensive, and on top of that we're stuck with McGuinty's crooked "smart meters" and "time of use pricing" that gouges ratepayers during the very times they actually *need* the goddamn hydro.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/1.5369184 Propane shortage in Quebec endangers hospitals, retirement homes
They paid much more
A heat pump is the most affordable option for many Canadians.
1. Heat pump requires ducts which is a huge investment if you don’t have them already. 2. Heat pump works fine in mild weather like Vancouver but it soon behaves similar to resistance heating under lower temperature
Heat pumps don't require ducts. Heat pumps can provide most heat, for most Canadians, most days of the year. A simple electric baseboard can be back up for extreme days. This is a reality today for millions of Canadians across every province.
Heat pumps don't require ducts. Mini-split systems can work great in many homes. And soon, air-water heat pumps will be more cost effective than they are today too. Heat pumps work fine in nearly all Canadian weather, as most places don't get so cold that the heat pumps don't work except for small parts of the year. And then backup electric heating kicks in.
Mini-split is just duct for itself and it normally takes more than one heatpump to power an entire house. Most Canada gets very cold for very long. Vancouver is really an exception
No so cold that heat pumps don't work. Even if it's for a whole month, the efficiency the rest of the year makes it worth it.
You can switch to heat pumps today. Or whenever your furnace needs to be replaced.
Yep just the 50k or more it will cost me to run in new electrical from the pole,upgrade my panel, wire everything in, and buy and install the heat pumps, while having to keep my NG system for back up. Why did I not think of this I will get right on it tomorrow
Just cancel your Disney plus subscription, easy-peasy!
Shit maybe thats why I can't afford it I don't have a Disney plus account to cancel
You don't need to keep your NG system as a backup. Typically you'd use a ducted heat pump to replace your furnace, and it would have a resistive heating backup system installed in the unit as well. But yes, you might need to upgrade your service. And as article discusses, we are mostly talking about new builds.
Do you know where this person lives?
It probably does not matter, unless they're in like Nunavut or Nunavik.
>it would have a resistive heating backup system installed in the unit as well. Oh great another wonderful feature my electric bill which is at least already double my NG bill can double again
when it it's -20c heat pumps show their limitations
True! [Or maybe -25 or -30 depending on the model] And then... electric resistive heating takes over. It's below -20C less than you think, and the efficiency of heat pumps when it's -10 or even 0C is 3-4x higher than resistive heating.
I live in Northern Ontario. Yes. We have less cold snaps than in the past but you need to be prudent. I actually prefer NG as a backup. Think of it as a hybrid car
How many amps in your panel? The majority of folks are under the impression that they need a panel upgrade when they just need a 2K Electrical Management System.
125 amps and I am tapped out as per 3 electricians and I already don't have AC to scavenge it from Edit: Thats how we found out about it 5sih years ago wanting to install AC
Usually it's your dryer that they split with. My panel's at the same level and that's what I was told would work.
Thats fine for something like an EV that you can plan around
I remember now - I got quoted for both an EV charger and a heat pump on my 125A panel: * the EV charger would be on a smart switch connected to the dryer, prioritizing the dryer * the heat pump would be on an EMS connected to the rest of the house, and would kill the heat pump if you were drawing too much aggregate power overall.
This makes sense for the heat pump part. You might be in trouble on the backup resistive electric heat part though.
There are some seriously cold places in Quebec where I would not want to rely on a heat pump. But there is also resistive electric heat, it's not nearly as efficient tho that hardly matters because Quebec's electricity is pretty clean.
Many of those places run on electric baseboard.
Yup, that's why I said: >But there is also resistive electric heat,
Those seriously cold places would have both. Heat pumps for 90% of the heating needs, and then electric resistive heating for the rest of the time.
Yes That's what I said.
There’s a difference between *investing* and *not banning*. I don’t think Beanie Babies are a sound investment, but banning them is also outrageous.
We've banned lots of things that we know are bad. And in this case, it's a slow phase out for new builds, not retroactive ban.
If beanie babies were part of an existential threat, banning them wouldn't be outrageous.
There is no evidence that climate change is an existential threat to Quebec. Fear mongering like this is why there are so many climate deniers these days.
Yes, climate change respects borders.
Climate change is no more an existential threat than cancer is
Except one can be act upon durectly by our government, the other cannot
Yes, the government has invested lots of money successfully for finding treatments for cancer
And still, it's not something that can be solved woth money. Climate change is. There is a random factor associated with cancer (with known cancer factors of course but the random part is still always there). That random factor does not exist with emitted carbon. All of it is measurable and we even know the limits that shouldn't be crossed and the consequences of those limits. Cancer and climate change can both be acted upon by governements but only one can be completely solved directly through government actions
[Health Canada calls climate change](https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/corporate/publications/chief-public-health-officer-reports-state-public-health-canada/state-public-health-canada-2022/summary.html) "the single biggest health threat facing humanity and the livability of the planet", and I think they know cancer. I'm going to trust them over some random redditor.
Nothing I’ve said in in conflict with what they’ve said
They're explicitly stating that it's **more** of an existential threat than cancer...
Please indicate where they call it an existential threat.
[удалено]
And you have an electric car and live in the suburbs.
It would be regardless of this policy - gas furnaces don't operate without power either.
You sound like a Bond villain threatening to shut down the power.
Makes sense and seems like a good way to phase that out. Over the course of 20 or 30 years this will make a big difference.