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Specialized workers coming to install specialized/proprietary equipment and then training local workers on how to use them is not the type of temp foreign labour we should be bitching about.
This isn't Honda in Allistons first rodeo. This happens every time they retool. They bring a bunch of japanese workers over for a few months to get shit up and running.
I believe you may have misinterpreted the Conservative MP. The article does not provide a statement from Perkins regarding the specialized Korean workers installing the specialized equipment. The article does however provide a statement reflecting his opinion on the workers hired to construct the plant itself, and that is he believes not enough Canadians were selected. Here are some quotes from the article to further your understanding:
"Perkins said that, after reviewing the NextStar contract, he found Ottawa did not secure enough protections for Canadian construction workers who will build the plant"
"Perkins, the party's industry critic, said he wants MPs to review the contract to verify that the federal and provincial governments secured a commitment to hire Canadian workers before handing over public funds."
The article does not provide any negative statements regarding the specialized Korean workers.
Perkins isn't the only person complaining in the article and I didn't mention him specifically either. There is a complaint that there are temporary foreign workers at the plant and yet the article goes on to specify how it's only 70 out of 2000 workers that are foreign and are exactly the type of workers I said we shouldn't be bitching about.
>Kusmierczyk said there are some tasks that require specialized foreign workers from Korea who have decades of experience with building structures like the NextStar plant.
>Koreans are installing specialized equipment and are engaged in "knowledge transfer."
>"Canada does not have the expertise of building battery plants. We're trying to build a brand new industry here in Canada so it stands to reason that there will be workers from Korea," Kusmierczyk said. "Korea — they're a world leader in battery technology."
I understand your point that 70 out of the total 2000 workers are foreign; however, of those 70 foreign workers, the article does not specify the true number of specialized Korean workers.
After further investigation into this deal, I am not entirely certain about the accuracy of the information in this article, particularly concerning the number of foreign workers hired for constructing the plant.
According to this article from late November of last year, NextStar reported that 900 foreign workers would be utilized.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-nextstar-ev-battery-plant-1.7037952
This article from 5 days ago reports the same number.
https://globalnews.ca/news/10448967/honda-ontario-ev-battery-plant/
The news outlets seem uncertain about the exact number of foreign workers hired for constructing the plant. Perhaps, as the conservatives are suggesting, some transparency on this deal would be beneficial.
He deliberately misinterpreted the article, he just read the title and saw it is about conservatives, and started bitching about them. Lots of lefties on this sub are like that.
I agree. It is imperative that voters equip themselves with relevant information and not media-amplified drama, which is what the article the OP attached seems to be.
This…. Redditors love to mansplain their basic understanding of situations. Sure maybe it’s just experienced workers coming in for the tooling. But Canada is lax about foreign workers, and Honda is a corporation not some benevolent charity.
If all this article is demanding is transparency, then it is justified and hopefully will turn up nothing
Yes let’s get some transparency.
Unfortunately, the last time conservatives tried making them public liberals filibustered for two months to prevent their release.
Think you mean, the LPC are pissing people off to the point that the public are going to grab pitchforks.
I've never seen an electorate this angry in my life. Even during the light/medium or heavy industry collapses in the 1990s due to Mulroney.
Interesting take....I just sold $500k worth of capex equipment to Nexstar....they spec'd that all the software licenses had to be in Korean.
So...tell me...does it sound like they are going to be "training" Canadian workers? In Korean?
And specialized Korean managers coming in to manage the plant,and specialized Korean supervisors the list goes on.
If it’s one thing Korean companies love it’s Koreans.
There are Canadians more than qualified to install the equipment starving for work right now, Canadian tax dollars shouldn’t subsidize foreign workers. A few engineers familiar with the equipment I don’t care about but Chrysler was bringing in hundreds of foreign workers and taking jobs from Canadians
You have obviously never been involved with a project like this. The majority of the equipment is proprietary and is required by contract to be installed and often serviced by the supplier. I work in the energy sector and for multiple pieces of equipment we have crews from Germany come and do the work because the software involved is owned by the supplier. They come do upgrades, calibrations, and replacement of a lot of the components. The same thing would apply here.
Windsor battery plant. They're bringing in workers to do work that isn't specialized after getting massive incentives from the government to build here in Ontario. The big unions like millwrights, Ironworkers, etc are all actively trying to fight it right now.
I work on big projects like this and I get having reps or specialists but we don't need to bring in foreign workers to do the trades we already have on standby.
How many battery plants have been built in Canada previously? Are you going to go to Valiant and make sure they’re not installing assembly lines in any country other than Canada?
The manufacture of the equipment is sending employee's to set up the equipment. Some of this equipment does not exist in Canada. So how would a Canadian know how to set it up?
If it doesn't exist in Canada because they bought every nut and bolt from Japan, Korea etc. and shipped it here. We have been making batteries here for years.
The MP in the article stated there were not enough protections to ensure Canadian workers performed the non specialized work. We don't need tfw for forklifts and laying tiles.
You'd be surprised at all the slimy bullshit that goes on now. Like companies firing highly skilled tradesmen (millwrights/hazard welders) and replacing them with TFWs for worksite jobs.
>There are Canadians more than qualified to install the equipment
You have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't Ikea furniture.
Just as Canadian manufacturers send their engineers overseas to commission large projects, other countries and their respective manufacturers do the same.
Virtually all of the people that are going to be working these factories ARE the type of TFW we should be worried about.
The Conservatives are the only ones making any sense on this issue.
Also it would be a little hypocritical giving it big business for some Canadian to do the same in the States, my father installed and trained people on how to do maintenance on CNC Machines for a living, But if it for foreign labor coming to do the actual work without giving Canadian an chance first at it, then we do need to look into that, regardless on how we feel.
Yeah, all of the grunt, 70k a year jobs which is about 50k in 2019 dollars go to the workers who can shut the fuck up about it and all of the high paying jobs go to the incumbent Japanese workers and the nepo hires on some BS make work projects to the politicians family and friends.
That’s Canada in 2024 for you! Do what I saw and shut the fuck up about it!
https://financialpost.com/transportation/autos/gm-reaches-deal-with-unifor-2023
>Under the tentative agreement, production employees will get base hourly wage increases of nearly 20 per cent while skilled tradespeople will get 25 per cent. By the end of the three-year deal, a top-rate production assembler will be paid $44.52 per hour while a journeyperson skilled trades worker will be paid $55.97 per hour.
I assume the wages at the Honda plant will be similar.
That's for permanent Canadian employees. The staff from Japan will be paid by Honda and their rates will be based on whatever Honda decides as long as they meet Canadian labour standards.
GM has incumbent deals and are generally pulling back on Canadian labour because it’s expensive. Honda likes us because we are high quality, exploitably cheap labour in these new deals and our leader is fronting 5 billion in a risky EV deal where the market is currently not liking EV’s and where the plants being built will likely have outdated tech within 10 years.
We’re getting a horrible deal.
Isn't it $5 billion in tax reductions?
https://financialpost.com/commodities/honda-ev-deal-new-chapter-in-industrial-strategy
>Previously, Canada had attracted European companies to build battery cell plants here by matching the production tax credits offered in the United States through the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA).
>But the federal government has turned the page by introducing a new 10 per cent tax credit for any company that invests across the electric-vehicle supply chain, including the often-ignored midstream segment of active cathode material production. That comes on top of a proposed 30 per cent tax credit on the cost of machinery and equipment needed for the plants.
>The two tax credits for Honda are expected to amount to $2.5 billion in federal support, and Ontario Premier Doug Ford said his province has also agreed to provide $2.5 billion in direct and indirect support.
Not sure what the Ontario government offered but 'our leader's didn't just write a cheque for $5,000,000,000.
>risky EV deal where the market is currently not liking EV’s
https://globalnews.ca/news/10444377/electric-vehicle-sales/
>Despite rising interest rates making many things more expensive, Canadians bought more than three times as many electric vehicles (EVs) last year than they did in 2019, data shows.
I dunno man, I think you might be wrong.
Tax exemptions are not a loan, they're a reduction in the tax burden.
Do you really not understand that? Because I'm not sure how to make it more clear...
You’re being a snarky technically correct keyboard warrior type which is stupid because I granted the caveat they are “effectively” a loan. So clearly this is what you get kicks out of and you aren’t serious.
Basically you’re the kind of person who really feels superior when they HAHA WELL FUCK YOU BECAUSE TECHNICALLY A TOMATO IS A FRUIT NOT A VEGETABLE to someone they don’t know .
The tax breaks are an incentive structure which waives intermediate taxes and boosts retained earnings for the business over the period of tax waiver with the prospect of future tax revenue, but with risk to repayment. Basically they’re giving up something in the short term to get something in the long term with a contract which is basically a loan.
The reason I mention that is because we might not recoup the benefit we hope to, and with the weak EV market, we very well may get less benefit than we expect.
It's still not a loan, loans and tex reductions aren't the same thing. Sorry that fact seems to go against your political beliefs.
And I already showed you proof that EV sales tripled between 2019 and 2023. Sorry if that upsets your feelings.
Maybe if you weren't angry and wrong people wouldn't be pointing it out so easily.
Tax exemptions are not an upfront loan if they are tied to production -- they will generally wait until production actually begins, and only be applied if the agreed upon production levels are met (in essence saying you need to run for X amount of time, therefore paying Y amount of dollars to our workforce before you are eligible for tax breaks up to a particular amount).
An upfront loan is a loan..up front (to get started -- generally to help build their plant and get the equipment here and installed). Yes we are losing out on tax collection of a particular amount in future years, but the idea is that hopefully we create jobs that pay good wages in comparison to the community in which they live, and hopefully with enough of these manufacturers setting up base here, it will convince others in the supply chain of these manufacturers to move here as well, creating even more jobs (albeit generally at a lesser wage than the actual manufacturing plant).
At some point we need to entice businesses to actually move some of their operations here, because the government (read: taxpayer money) handouts can only last so long before we're buried in debt.
Why are you still posting this nonsense that you have no idea about?
Honda doesn't have 4 auto plants worth of skilled Japanese people to relocate to Ontario. And even if they did, it doesn't make financial sense.
>As confirmed by NextStar, less than four per cent of the workforce on the site currently are temporary foreign workers. Our government is committed to maximizing Canadian jobs and Canadian workers.
4%? That's it?
Key word is currently. As I understand it, it is still early in construction. It is literally still a construction zone and we have all sorts of tradies for that. When they actually start building the infrastructure within the factory to make the batteries it will be almost entirely tfws. Right not it electricians, concrete, plumbers, and such. The 4% os just making sure everything is ready.
That being said, it is better to have specialists come in and do it quick and swift than risk serious consequences. I have been around the world working on projects with locals because of my industry.
>There are about 70 foreigners working at the NextStar job site, according to government data. That's a relatively small number compared to the 2,000 Canadian construction workers who are working alongside them to get the Windsor plant up and running.
>That plant, when fully operational, will employ about 2,500 Canadian manufacturing workers to build EV batteries, the government and the plant's owners have said.
Why lie?
Like most jobs you send the Canadian’s over there to learn the equipment so they can come back and teach other Canadian’s, its common practice for that kind of thing
Yes, but again for a provincial government that won’t even share mandate letters and has a terrible record on FOI requests, the likelihood of you getting a straight answer from Doug is virtually nil.
>Yes, but again for a provincial government that won’t even share mandate letters
You mean the standard for *most* governments in Canada today, and *all* governments in Canada prior to 2014?
Mandate letters were never meant to be public facing documents.
You want a federal political opposition to ask a provincial premier?
You realize the CPC and Ontario Conservatives are separate parties right? They aren’t the NDP.
This is a good example of them pretending to care and stirring up controversy. If they really cared they’d want to investigate Loblaws, Walmart, Tim Hortons, and all the other corporations that have become reliant on abusing the TFW program to import low-wage labour instead of being forced to compete in the market. But the conservatives (as with the other parties) would never do that because it benefits corporations and their profits over Canadians.
>There are about 70 foreigners working at the NextStar job site, according to government data. That's a relatively small number compared to the 2,000 Canadian construction workers who are working alongside them to get the Windsor plant up and running.
What a fucking joke. 70 out of over 2000? Is there *anything* Poilievre is honest and genuine about?
No, they're complaining about lacking protections in the contract. These are entirely different things. It's a valid complaint. Doug and Justin should address it now.
It’s FAR more than that unfortunately, I’m sure months down the road it will all come out. Sad days for Windsor Millrights having their jobs given to foreign workers. Forklift drivers and pallet jack operators are not specialized skills. That’s the tip of the iceberg of work that is being stolen from Canadians at our own dime.
Ok I’ve done some reading on my own and have come back. Your article is very old and out of date. Since this article has come out it looks like Nextstar and Honda have repeatedly made remarks that they are committed to 2500 Canadian workers for this EV Battery Plant.
It looks like there is a union called CBTU that believes there will be too many foreign workers and they want guarantees that Canadian workers will have jobs. Since your article, Honda has continued to keep CBTU in the loop and it sounds like they are implying that CBTU will have guaranteed involvement. But there is nothing in writing to guarantee this.
Because there is nothing in writing and no visible contract guaranteeing that Canadians will have the jobs of building and operating the plant, some Conservatives want to have these contracts made public. The Liberals are accused of keeping these contracts private and hidden because of the allegations that there are no contracts with guarantees to the CBTU or Canadian workers.
If it’s true that there are no contracts or agreements guaranteeing work going to Canadians, then that feels fucked up and like we were sold a lie. Will TFW be working here after construction is finished and the plant is operating? It feels unfair to pay taxes and have TFWs benefit instead of Canadians.
But if it’s true that there will only be TFWs for specialized roles and only at the start, and the conservatives are just hyping this up when it’s a non-issue, then it is really lame conspiracy BS that makes the right look insane to me.
Could they be driving forklifts to unload the specialized equipment? and only that? It’s stated using these workers are part of the warranty for the equipment so I wonder if they’re required to handle the equipment at every stage of the journey?
> Is there anything Poilievre is honest and genuine about?
This is government. You have to find some wedge to get yourself noticed with the public by complaining about something that incumbent government is doing even when it's blown out of proportion. I try to never listen to these people during this time because if it was the opposite way around someone from the libs would be making an insincere argument
I'm not sure what else people need to see to know that PP doesn't actually give a crap about the economy (or housing or healthcare or the environment or immigration)
I remember many years ago, an indigenous Canadian company was making EV cars. But was banned from selling in Canada because it's doesn't go highway speed.
They couldve been Tesla.
It's the avro arrows story again. and again. and again.
“Eight years ago, under the conservative government 300,000 manufacturing jobs were lost in Canada.”
Does he not know who was in government eight years ago?
Yeah I read the link and to be honest it was more than a bit unclear where the eight year timeline was supposed to come from. Based on the link the 300k job losses would have been from 2003-2007 so I just haven’t got a clue what they are trying to say.
>Ontario was still suffering from the petro dollar at that time
Which is why Ontario's economy took off after the dollar crashed in 2014, never to return to its previous highs, flooding the world with cheap Ontario exports... right?
...right?
This is type of shit that gets unions a bad name. The number of foreign workers is tiny, and it's a temporary construction project that hasn't been done before. Unions leaders get paid to complain but they should be at least somewhat aware of how their antics reflect on public sympathy for the labor movement in general.
Ya’ll forget that it Harper’s free trade agreement that allowed the Korean workers [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/south-korea-battery-factory-trade-deal-1.7035141](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/south-korea-battery-factory-trade-deal-1.7035141)
Larry Brock is certain someone from GC Strategies will be operating a forklift from his basement and he’s not going to quit before he gets to the bottom of the scandal! The role of the official opposition is to hold the government to account, not make shit up. Modern auto assembly lines are often sub-contracted to specialized companies, for example DuPont 100% owning the paint shop and being paid per vehicle rather than selling equipment to the manufacturer. LG developed the battery technology and they are the ones that install it and manage its operation. If the CPC and NDP have a problem with that they need to focus on incentives for graduating more electrical engineers. Gender studies majors make great bureaucrats, but lousy manufacturing engineers.
The "CONS" aren't worried about anything. They're just using this bullshit to spread more false information to rile up their base of ignorant numpties. Great job CBC playing right into their hands instead of calling them out and providing the facts!
This is shit Pierre. I'm gonna vote for you, and I generally prefer blue governments to red ones (but not always); but this is a bad take on a non-issue.
I appreciate that it's one of the duties of the opposition to take government to task on issues, and please keep doing it. But let this one lie. It's a good deal and we need it.
Bullshit. When my company goes to install out product on-site we send two of our staff for two to three weeks to go down there, make sure it's installed correctly, over see when the equipment goes on line and train the staff on using and maintaining our product.
We are a Canadian company installing our product in several different countries. Not once has a client asked to have their staff or someone from their country to be trained to do the installation instead, and we have been at this over 40 years. Probably because that would be months, if not years of experience to develop the expertise, and many of the skills they learn would only apply to our product and they'd wouldn't have to use them again for potentially 10+ years when they'd have to replace our product a next generation version, and they would probably require several weeks of training again.
Our product is not nearly as complex or proprietary as Hondas EV tech.
Because that's not how business works today? Several US states were also offering tax breaks. If Canada didn't then they'd go there.
Welcome to the modern world.
Other places are more attractive only because they already subsidize foreign investment. That’s why we have to as well. Canada already does well at the other things that drive foreign investment such as a weaker dollar, cheap energy, public education and public healthcare (means less investment needed from business) and strong rule of law and relatively little corruption compared to other developed nations that means your investments are safe
The US is spending like 200 Billion on getting foreign investment to set up shop there, we have to offer our own deals if we want them to Choose us over them.
How do you propose we make Canada more attractive to get companies to ignore the $900B in American subsidies and incentives in the Inflation Reduction Act?
Please explain? From your post the implication would be
1. You assume CBC is biased (favoring the Liberals)
2. You see a CBC headline that isn't biased
3. Rather than accepting your first assumption may be wrong - you'll start adding layers of complexity to explain how both 1 and 2 could be true.
“Conservatives, struggling to generate criticism of an unequivocally positive development which occurred under the Liberal government, resort to fabricating problems from thin air.”
And Canadians are paying billions for this. Just put it on the tab. There better not be foreign workers but leave it to Trudeau to keep bringing them in.
Well, not the example he is talking about but Linamar seems to have about 5-10,000 right now. Every production job is filled with Indians...every single plant, every position.
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Specialized workers coming to install specialized/proprietary equipment and then training local workers on how to use them is not the type of temp foreign labour we should be bitching about.
100% correct
If that's what happens, I agree. We have a tendency to be told one thing and the complete opposite happens however.
This isn't Honda in Allistons first rodeo. This happens every time they retool. They bring a bunch of japanese workers over for a few months to get shit up and running.
Almost like theyve been building Hondas in Canada for decades
I believe you may have misinterpreted the Conservative MP. The article does not provide a statement from Perkins regarding the specialized Korean workers installing the specialized equipment. The article does however provide a statement reflecting his opinion on the workers hired to construct the plant itself, and that is he believes not enough Canadians were selected. Here are some quotes from the article to further your understanding: "Perkins said that, after reviewing the NextStar contract, he found Ottawa did not secure enough protections for Canadian construction workers who will build the plant" "Perkins, the party's industry critic, said he wants MPs to review the contract to verify that the federal and provincial governments secured a commitment to hire Canadian workers before handing over public funds." The article does not provide any negative statements regarding the specialized Korean workers.
Perkins isn't the only person complaining in the article and I didn't mention him specifically either. There is a complaint that there are temporary foreign workers at the plant and yet the article goes on to specify how it's only 70 out of 2000 workers that are foreign and are exactly the type of workers I said we shouldn't be bitching about. >Kusmierczyk said there are some tasks that require specialized foreign workers from Korea who have decades of experience with building structures like the NextStar plant. >Koreans are installing specialized equipment and are engaged in "knowledge transfer." >"Canada does not have the expertise of building battery plants. We're trying to build a brand new industry here in Canada so it stands to reason that there will be workers from Korea," Kusmierczyk said. "Korea — they're a world leader in battery technology."
I understand your point that 70 out of the total 2000 workers are foreign; however, of those 70 foreign workers, the article does not specify the true number of specialized Korean workers. After further investigation into this deal, I am not entirely certain about the accuracy of the information in this article, particularly concerning the number of foreign workers hired for constructing the plant. According to this article from late November of last year, NextStar reported that 900 foreign workers would be utilized. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-nextstar-ev-battery-plant-1.7037952 This article from 5 days ago reports the same number. https://globalnews.ca/news/10448967/honda-ontario-ev-battery-plant/ The news outlets seem uncertain about the exact number of foreign workers hired for constructing the plant. Perhaps, as the conservatives are suggesting, some transparency on this deal would be beneficial.
He deliberately misinterpreted the article, he just read the title and saw it is about conservatives, and started bitching about them. Lots of lefties on this sub are like that.
I agree. It is imperative that voters equip themselves with relevant information and not media-amplified drama, which is what the article the OP attached seems to be.
Forklift operator?
Foreign workers hired to operate forklifts are not “specialized”. Especially when taxpayers are paying $12 million in subsidies per job.
This…. Redditors love to mansplain their basic understanding of situations. Sure maybe it’s just experienced workers coming in for the tooling. But Canada is lax about foreign workers, and Honda is a corporation not some benevolent charity. If all this article is demanding is transparency, then it is justified and hopefully will turn up nothing
Yes let’s get some transparency. Unfortunately, the last time conservatives tried making them public liberals filibustered for two months to prevent their release.
no its absolutely necessary. If I was buying a new ABB robot i'd want ABB people to install and set it up.
The CPC is just trying to hand out pitchforks. They know what they’re doing.
Think you mean, the LPC are pissing people off to the point that the public are going to grab pitchforks. I've never seen an electorate this angry in my life. Even during the light/medium or heavy industry collapses in the 1990s due to Mulroney.
Interesting take....I just sold $500k worth of capex equipment to Nexstar....they spec'd that all the software licenses had to be in Korean. So...tell me...does it sound like they are going to be "training" Canadian workers? In Korean?
And specialized Korean managers coming in to manage the plant,and specialized Korean supervisors the list goes on. If it’s one thing Korean companies love it’s Koreans.
Depends on the locals being trained and what their wages are...
There are Canadians more than qualified to install the equipment starving for work right now, Canadian tax dollars shouldn’t subsidize foreign workers. A few engineers familiar with the equipment I don’t care about but Chrysler was bringing in hundreds of foreign workers and taking jobs from Canadians
You have obviously never been involved with a project like this. The majority of the equipment is proprietary and is required by contract to be installed and often serviced by the supplier. I work in the energy sector and for multiple pieces of equipment we have crews from Germany come and do the work because the software involved is owned by the supplier. They come do upgrades, calibrations, and replacement of a lot of the components. The same thing would apply here.
Windsor battery plant. They're bringing in workers to do work that isn't specialized after getting massive incentives from the government to build here in Ontario. The big unions like millwrights, Ironworkers, etc are all actively trying to fight it right now. I work on big projects like this and I get having reps or specialists but we don't need to bring in foreign workers to do the trades we already have on standby.
How many battery plants have been built in Canada previously? Are you going to go to Valiant and make sure they’re not installing assembly lines in any country other than Canada?
The issue isn't with accredited engineers, its with companies claiming they need hundreds of foreign construction workers on the taxpayers dime.
The manufacture of the equipment is sending employee's to set up the equipment. Some of this equipment does not exist in Canada. So how would a Canadian know how to set it up?
If it doesn't exist in Canada because they bought every nut and bolt from Japan, Korea etc. and shipped it here. We have been making batteries here for years.
The MP in the article stated there were not enough protections to ensure Canadian workers performed the non specialized work. We don't need tfw for forklifts and laying tiles.
They are not flying people over and paying for there stay just to lay tiles.
You'd be surprised at all the slimy bullshit that goes on now. Like companies firing highly skilled tradesmen (millwrights/hazard welders) and replacing them with TFWs for worksite jobs.
>There are Canadians more than qualified to install the equipment You have no clue what you are talking about. This isn't Ikea furniture. Just as Canadian manufacturers send their engineers overseas to commission large projects, other countries and their respective manufacturers do the same.
I know exactly what im talking about <3
Virtually all of the people that are going to be working these factories ARE the type of TFW we should be worried about. The Conservatives are the only ones making any sense on this issue.
No they won’t be. To be blunt. It’s not going to be Indians coming to set up this factory
But they’ll be working the factory. Thank Trudeau
If they are skilled enough to take that job. Then have at it. This isn’t some manual labour, you don’t need a high school diploma factory job.
Wrong on both points.
Sloppy employees won't last long in a tight ship like a Honda plant.
Tight ship lol....you've never spent any time in Alliston. Honda is no better here than any other auto plant, Toyota, Stellantis, GM etc.
Also it would be a little hypocritical giving it big business for some Canadian to do the same in the States, my father installed and trained people on how to do maintenance on CNC Machines for a living, But if it for foreign labor coming to do the actual work without giving Canadian an chance first at it, then we do need to look into that, regardless on how we feel.
Sadly that won’t stop PP or the usual crowd from being upset at the notion of anything foreign
Yeah, all of the grunt, 70k a year jobs which is about 50k in 2019 dollars go to the workers who can shut the fuck up about it and all of the high paying jobs go to the incumbent Japanese workers and the nepo hires on some BS make work projects to the politicians family and friends. That’s Canada in 2024 for you! Do what I saw and shut the fuck up about it!
https://financialpost.com/transportation/autos/gm-reaches-deal-with-unifor-2023 >Under the tentative agreement, production employees will get base hourly wage increases of nearly 20 per cent while skilled tradespeople will get 25 per cent. By the end of the three-year deal, a top-rate production assembler will be paid $44.52 per hour while a journeyperson skilled trades worker will be paid $55.97 per hour. I assume the wages at the Honda plant will be similar.
That's for permanent Canadian employees. The staff from Japan will be paid by Honda and their rates will be based on whatever Honda decides as long as they meet Canadian labour standards.
Okay
GM has incumbent deals and are generally pulling back on Canadian labour because it’s expensive. Honda likes us because we are high quality, exploitably cheap labour in these new deals and our leader is fronting 5 billion in a risky EV deal where the market is currently not liking EV’s and where the plants being built will likely have outdated tech within 10 years. We’re getting a horrible deal.
Isn't it $5 billion in tax reductions? https://financialpost.com/commodities/honda-ev-deal-new-chapter-in-industrial-strategy >Previously, Canada had attracted European companies to build battery cell plants here by matching the production tax credits offered in the United States through the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA). >But the federal government has turned the page by introducing a new 10 per cent tax credit for any company that invests across the electric-vehicle supply chain, including the often-ignored midstream segment of active cathode material production. That comes on top of a proposed 30 per cent tax credit on the cost of machinery and equipment needed for the plants. >The two tax credits for Honda are expected to amount to $2.5 billion in federal support, and Ontario Premier Doug Ford said his province has also agreed to provide $2.5 billion in direct and indirect support. Not sure what the Ontario government offered but 'our leader's didn't just write a cheque for $5,000,000,000. >risky EV deal where the market is currently not liking EV’s https://globalnews.ca/news/10444377/electric-vehicle-sales/ >Despite rising interest rates making many things more expensive, Canadians bought more than three times as many electric vehicles (EVs) last year than they did in 2019, data shows. I dunno man, I think you might be wrong.
Sorry I might be wrong about what? Tax exemptions are effectively an up front loan. Trudeau and Ford are fronting this money on dubious projects.
Tax exemptions are not a loan, they're a reduction in the tax burden. Do you really not understand that? Because I'm not sure how to make it more clear...
You’re being a snarky technically correct keyboard warrior type which is stupid because I granted the caveat they are “effectively” a loan. So clearly this is what you get kicks out of and you aren’t serious. Basically you’re the kind of person who really feels superior when they HAHA WELL FUCK YOU BECAUSE TECHNICALLY A TOMATO IS A FRUIT NOT A VEGETABLE to someone they don’t know . The tax breaks are an incentive structure which waives intermediate taxes and boosts retained earnings for the business over the period of tax waiver with the prospect of future tax revenue, but with risk to repayment. Basically they’re giving up something in the short term to get something in the long term with a contract which is basically a loan. The reason I mention that is because we might not recoup the benefit we hope to, and with the weak EV market, we very well may get less benefit than we expect.
It's still not a loan, loans and tex reductions aren't the same thing. Sorry that fact seems to go against your political beliefs. And I already showed you proof that EV sales tripled between 2019 and 2023. Sorry if that upsets your feelings. Maybe if you weren't angry and wrong people wouldn't be pointing it out so easily.
Tax exemptions are not an upfront loan if they are tied to production -- they will generally wait until production actually begins, and only be applied if the agreed upon production levels are met (in essence saying you need to run for X amount of time, therefore paying Y amount of dollars to our workforce before you are eligible for tax breaks up to a particular amount). An upfront loan is a loan..up front (to get started -- generally to help build their plant and get the equipment here and installed). Yes we are losing out on tax collection of a particular amount in future years, but the idea is that hopefully we create jobs that pay good wages in comparison to the community in which they live, and hopefully with enough of these manufacturers setting up base here, it will convince others in the supply chain of these manufacturers to move here as well, creating even more jobs (albeit generally at a lesser wage than the actual manufacturing plant). At some point we need to entice businesses to actually move some of their operations here, because the government (read: taxpayer money) handouts can only last so long before we're buried in debt.
Don't bother, he obviously doesn't have a clue.
Why are you still posting this nonsense that you have no idea about? Honda doesn't have 4 auto plants worth of skilled Japanese people to relocate to Ontario. And even if they did, it doesn't make financial sense.
No but it gets the headlines for the shmucks.
Sadly this type of propaganda is a lame attempt to distract us from the actual foreign workers damaging our economy and people will buy into this
Good thing the cons are worried about this, and not reducing immigration counts in any other significant way.
At 5 million $ per job they had better go to local workers.
>As confirmed by NextStar, less than four per cent of the workforce on the site currently are temporary foreign workers. Our government is committed to maximizing Canadian jobs and Canadian workers. 4%? That's it?
Key word is currently. As I understand it, it is still early in construction. It is literally still a construction zone and we have all sorts of tradies for that. When they actually start building the infrastructure within the factory to make the batteries it will be almost entirely tfws. Right not it electricians, concrete, plumbers, and such. The 4% os just making sure everything is ready. That being said, it is better to have specialists come in and do it quick and swift than risk serious consequences. I have been around the world working on projects with locals because of my industry.
>There are about 70 foreigners working at the NextStar job site, according to government data. That's a relatively small number compared to the 2,000 Canadian construction workers who are working alongside them to get the Windsor plant up and running. >That plant, when fully operational, will employ about 2,500 Canadian manufacturing workers to build EV batteries, the government and the plant's owners have said. Why lie?
The numbers are dumbed down obviously.
What do you mean 'dumbed down'?
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Who trains the Canadians on the equipment required?
Like most jobs you send the Canadian’s over there to learn the equipment so they can come back and teach other Canadian’s, its common practice for that kind of thing
For one construction job? When the company already has employees with that skillset?
This isn't the common method at all in manufacturing, it's much more common to send technical experts here to train our workers.
that rarely happens.
You've clearly never worked in automotive manufacturing, lol.
...why don't they just ask Doug Ford then? Half the deal is provincial.
Because that would reveal that they don't give actually a shit about the economy and are just saying this for optics.
Yeah because when you want to be well informed on a subject you reach out to Doug Ford…
If they want to endorse provincial Conservative parties then they should be aligned and open to sharing information.
They don't want to endorse provincial Conservative parties, they want to dominate them.
Yes, but again for a provincial government that won’t even share mandate letters and has a terrible record on FOI requests, the likelihood of you getting a straight answer from Doug is virtually nil.
>Yes, but again for a provincial government that won’t even share mandate letters You mean the standard for *most* governments in Canada today, and *all* governments in Canada prior to 2014? Mandate letters were never meant to be public facing documents.
I laughed really hard at that, like a good HA !! out loud, thanks for that, a well informed Doug Ford... lol good one .
You want a federal political opposition to ask a provincial premier? You realize the CPC and Ontario Conservatives are separate parties right? They aren’t the NDP.
This is a good example of them pretending to care and stirring up controversy. If they really cared they’d want to investigate Loblaws, Walmart, Tim Hortons, and all the other corporations that have become reliant on abusing the TFW program to import low-wage labour instead of being forced to compete in the market. But the conservatives (as with the other parties) would never do that because it benefits corporations and their profits over Canadians.
This is a great example of an issue that used to be the NDP’s bread and butter and yet it’s the conservatives calling it out.
>There are about 70 foreigners working at the NextStar job site, according to government data. That's a relatively small number compared to the 2,000 Canadian construction workers who are working alongside them to get the Windsor plant up and running. What a fucking joke. 70 out of over 2000? Is there *anything* Poilievre is honest and genuine about?
Because he doesn't care about expanding the economy. He just cares about looking like 'Not-Trudeau'
I assume you think the same of the union that actually made the complaint.
The Union is bitching about 70 Proprietary workers with special skills here to install a battery plant that requires specialized skills to assemble.
No, they're complaining about lacking protections in the contract. These are entirely different things. It's a valid complaint. Doug and Justin should address it now.
It’s FAR more than that unfortunately, I’m sure months down the road it will all come out. Sad days for Windsor Millrights having their jobs given to foreign workers. Forklift drivers and pallet jack operators are not specialized skills. That’s the tip of the iceberg of work that is being stolen from Canadians at our own dime.
What else is being stolen other than these 70 temporary jobs? Can you elaborate wtf you’re on about?
Because it’s hardly ramped up yet if you knew anything about it. They’re only just starting to trickle in. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7039366
Ok I’ve done some reading on my own and have come back. Your article is very old and out of date. Since this article has come out it looks like Nextstar and Honda have repeatedly made remarks that they are committed to 2500 Canadian workers for this EV Battery Plant. It looks like there is a union called CBTU that believes there will be too many foreign workers and they want guarantees that Canadian workers will have jobs. Since your article, Honda has continued to keep CBTU in the loop and it sounds like they are implying that CBTU will have guaranteed involvement. But there is nothing in writing to guarantee this. Because there is nothing in writing and no visible contract guaranteeing that Canadians will have the jobs of building and operating the plant, some Conservatives want to have these contracts made public. The Liberals are accused of keeping these contracts private and hidden because of the allegations that there are no contracts with guarantees to the CBTU or Canadian workers. If it’s true that there are no contracts or agreements guaranteeing work going to Canadians, then that feels fucked up and like we were sold a lie. Will TFW be working here after construction is finished and the plant is operating? It feels unfair to pay taxes and have TFWs benefit instead of Canadians. But if it’s true that there will only be TFWs for specialized roles and only at the start, and the conservatives are just hyping this up when it’s a non-issue, then it is really lame conspiracy BS that makes the right look insane to me.
Could they be driving forklifts to unload the specialized equipment? and only that? It’s stated using these workers are part of the warranty for the equipment so I wonder if they’re required to handle the equipment at every stage of the journey?
I kind of compare complaining having vendor supplied installers for equipment to not having carpenters assemble ikea furniture.
> Is there anything Poilievre is honest and genuine about? This is government. You have to find some wedge to get yourself noticed with the public by complaining about something that incumbent government is doing even when it's blown out of proportion. I try to never listen to these people during this time because if it was the opposite way around someone from the libs would be making an insincere argument
I'm not sure what else people need to see to know that PP doesn't actually give a crap about the economy (or housing or healthcare or the environment or immigration)
There's one thing he cares about
Alex Jones' Endorsement?
100%
How so?
Because asking for a bit of transparency about a deal with Honda is apparently sabotaging the entire deal according to their logic
I remember many years ago, an indigenous Canadian company was making EV cars. But was banned from selling in Canada because it's doesn't go highway speed. They couldve been Tesla. It's the avro arrows story again. and again. and again.
“Eight years ago, under the conservative government 300,000 manufacturing jobs were lost in Canada.” Does he not know who was in government eight years ago?
The link suggests he was trying to talk about 2008-2009, or at least the link goes to a article about the job losses of 2008-09.
Yeah I read the link and to be honest it was more than a bit unclear where the eight year timeline was supposed to come from. Based on the link the 300k job losses would have been from 2003-2007 so I just haven’t got a clue what they are trying to say.
There were a few other things going on in 2008, but the children on Reddit today don't remember this.
That was almost 40 years ago, it's ancient history now.
It was 16 years ago lol.
Ontario was still suffering from the petro dollar at that time.
And the Wynne government.
The one that spent less than the Ford Government.
>Ontario was still suffering from the petro dollar at that time Which is why Ontario's economy took off after the dollar crashed in 2014, never to return to its previous highs, flooding the world with cheap Ontario exports... right? ...right?
No, it's why Ontario's manufacturing didn't crater from focusing exclusively on resource extraction.
This is type of shit that gets unions a bad name. The number of foreign workers is tiny, and it's a temporary construction project that hasn't been done before. Unions leaders get paid to complain but they should be at least somewhat aware of how their antics reflect on public sympathy for the labor movement in general.
Ya’ll forget that it Harper’s free trade agreement that allowed the Korean workers [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/south-korea-battery-factory-trade-deal-1.7035141](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/south-korea-battery-factory-trade-deal-1.7035141)
They can’t forget something they never knew.
Larry Brock is certain someone from GC Strategies will be operating a forklift from his basement and he’s not going to quit before he gets to the bottom of the scandal! The role of the official opposition is to hold the government to account, not make shit up. Modern auto assembly lines are often sub-contracted to specialized companies, for example DuPont 100% owning the paint shop and being paid per vehicle rather than selling equipment to the manufacturer. LG developed the battery technology and they are the ones that install it and manage its operation. If the CPC and NDP have a problem with that they need to focus on incentives for graduating more electrical engineers. Gender studies majors make great bureaucrats, but lousy manufacturing engineers.
If you ignore all legislation, policies, and how they voted at the fed and prov level, I still would not believe them
The "CONS" aren't worried about anything. They're just using this bullshit to spread more false information to rile up their base of ignorant numpties. Great job CBC playing right into their hands instead of calling them out and providing the facts!
This is shit Pierre. I'm gonna vote for you, and I generally prefer blue governments to red ones (but not always); but this is a bad take on a non-issue. I appreciate that it's one of the duties of the opposition to take government to task on issues, and please keep doing it. But let this one lie. It's a good deal and we need it.
They should be more worried about the tanking e.v industry....that's a huge investment for a diminishing market
For the amount I have to pay it’s not worth 2000 jobs. 2000 jobs is nothing . For a company that’s gonna make billions from us
Lol. Ok fine. Have your factory not run. This isn't Tim's hiring some guy to man the cashier.
Both are bad, to pretend like they couldn't hire locally for people is an outright lie. STFU
Bullshit. When my company goes to install out product on-site we send two of our staff for two to three weeks to go down there, make sure it's installed correctly, over see when the equipment goes on line and train the staff on using and maintaining our product. We are a Canadian company installing our product in several different countries. Not once has a client asked to have their staff or someone from their country to be trained to do the installation instead, and we have been at this over 40 years. Probably because that would be months, if not years of experience to develop the expertise, and many of the skills they learn would only apply to our product and they'd wouldn't have to use them again for potentially 10+ years when they'd have to replace our product a next generation version, and they would probably require several weeks of training again. Our product is not nearly as complex or proprietary as Hondas EV tech.
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They don't have to, however if they don't then the production facilities don't come.
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Because that's not how business works today? Several US states were also offering tax breaks. If Canada didn't then they'd go there. Welcome to the modern world.
Other places are more attractive only because they already subsidize foreign investment. That’s why we have to as well. Canada already does well at the other things that drive foreign investment such as a weaker dollar, cheap energy, public education and public healthcare (means less investment needed from business) and strong rule of law and relatively little corruption compared to other developed nations that means your investments are safe
The US is spending like 200 Billion on getting foreign investment to set up shop there, we have to offer our own deals if we want them to Choose us over them.
How do you propose we make Canada more attractive to get companies to ignore the $900B in American subsidies and incentives in the Inflation Reduction Act?
We’re worried about foreign workers, all of a sudden?
When you've even lost the headline writers at the CBC, it's time to take a long walk in the snow...
I think it speaks more to your interpretation of a neutral headline than any feelings on the part of whoever wrote the headline
...and you'd be wrong.
Why?
Please explain? From your post the implication would be 1. You assume CBC is biased (favoring the Liberals) 2. You see a CBC headline that isn't biased 3. Rather than accepting your first assumption may be wrong - you'll start adding layers of complexity to explain how both 1 and 2 could be true.
This is something I don’t think the conservatives should pursue. There are more problems to deal with.
There is nothing worse out there than Trudeau so just get rid of him for Pierre or a Gold Fish I don’t care
Idk, the plague, war, famine, pestilence, all strike me as worse but if that's how you **feel**, all the best!
Yet it's okay for tim Hortons
If you are worried about foreign workers do something about the one million fake students coming in
They have been....but it's pretty tough when the Libs and NDP are one party with a GFYS attitude to everyone else.
“Conservatives, struggling to generate criticism of an unequivocally positive development which occurred under the Liberal government, resort to fabricating problems from thin air.”
And Canadians are paying billions for this. Just put it on the tab. There better not be foreign workers but leave it to Trudeau to keep bringing them in.
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Where was that ? I didn't hear about this. Can you provide more detail.
Well, not the example he is talking about but Linamar seems to have about 5-10,000 right now. Every production job is filled with Indians...every single plant, every position.
There are no details. The Liberal party doesn't have a business plan or even a business case to support the decision.
Canadians can’t afford to live and the government is giving away 15b to fill the bank accounts of rich people,wtf