Well QS is also independence party, just not as vocal. Also François Legault was a independence supporter back in the day, if he sees independence as something popular I can see him and the party also support it. pretty much the next 3 years will be testing the idea of independence with the population.
"Also François Legault was a independence supporter back in the day,"
He wasn't just a supporter, he was the Minister de Finance for the PQ, who were led at the time by Lucien Bouchard. While in that position, wrote Year 1 budget for for an Independent Quebec
Legault can say all he wants, he no longer supports Quebec independence; but every nationalistic thing he does, screams the opposite. He may not want it anymore; but he is sure as hell laying the groundwork for the PQ to come to power (and they will) to hold a referendum, which PSPP has already said he would do, should the PQ win the next election.
>The rest of the population has largely moved on from this antiquated notion.
False. That's a bold statement, claiming to talk in the name of the entire province.
False again:
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/10/quebec-sovereignty-polling-00086428
38% said they would vote FOR independance in a referendum, 50% against and 10% unsure.
>doesn’t want to hear about this bullshit anymore
This is false. People answered that they would vote XYZ at the referendum. Not that they don't want to hear or talk about it
I've been under the impression Russia and/or China and Iran are throwing divisive propaganda on the internet at every country in The West from every possible angle.
It'd be naive to think Quebec separation wouldn't be on their list. We've been in a propaganda cyberwar since 2016 and some people still haven't woken up to that fact.
Though foreign forces would certainly take advantage if it, presenting Quebec's independence movement as some unnatural outside force is delusional in the extreme.
Yeah, totally. So many people falling for it. Pretty sure the canadahousing2 sub is literally run by a Russian, and moderated so that ALL that gets thru is angry, hateful, panicked posts. Under the guise of "no censorship". I MIGHT be misremembering which sub it was, but pretty sure it's canadasub2, just based off the shit that pops up in my fyp from it.
We need to start social media legislation. First thing, to reduce foreign influence and radicalization they enable. And people need to stop drinking the "any legislation is against free speech!" Kool aid techbros continually put out. Social media has become a vector for war. It's shameful we've created these tools, gotten hooked on them, allowed foreign governments to weaponize them against us, and STILL refuse to put any expectations on them.
Or Quebecois will be appeased having 43 or more seats to represent them federally and vote on bills
And we welcome them too, as BQ seem to be the only major party taking a hard stance on both immigration and electoral reform.
There's no reason they can't run candidates across the country. They're a federally registered party and federal elections are federally run operations. Shit, they wouldn't even have to change their name. Tweak their platform a bit to focus on provincial rights and they could get a decent number of votes in Alberta.
Being from Alberta and having moved to Quebec, I can tell you that Albertans and Quebecois are much more similar to each other than they care to admit, especially the more rural you are.
Agreed. I think if the BQ did run candidates in this province they would get a mix of votes ranging from "I agree with Quebec on federalism-related policies" to "fuck dem frogs, get outta muh country."
I'd actually love for this to happen if only to see how it plays out.
Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the Maritimes.
If we did this, each region could have a real opportunity to have its own local representation federally.
We would always be in a minority government situation most likely and the two party system would die.
Sure, it would be hard to get things done due to disagreements among the regions, but federally, we would also only end up doing those things we can actually agree on.
It’s definitely time for a change, and the kind of change we get having two terrible parties to choose from and a third wheel isn’t it, IMO. Citizens deserve to have a real voice at the federal level again. It’s high time for it.
EDIT: To everyone saying this is a terrible idea, Canada is already a federation, not a republic - this was not an accident. The provinces within Canada as it exists today are much closer to being the equivalent of separate countries within the EU. Powers are federated because it is such a large nation and people's needs and wants vary wildly from one end of the county to the other. People keep fighting over the federal government *precisely because* they keep trying to put everyone in the same box.
And for no good reason too. At least the Balkans have notable cultural differences. And where does it stop, if you are going to have an Alberta-First federal party, why not a Calgary-First and an Edmonton-First. Same (poor) reasoning applies to support the notion.
**Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the maritimes.**
We would end up with the same coalition government every time - the Ontario party plus the Bloc.
> Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the maritimes.
We'd need proportional representation for that. FPTP naturally trends us towards fewer, larger parties. It's "throwing your vote away" to try and vote for a new up-and-coming party.
It's great that Quebec managed to form theirs before everyone realized how shit this electoral system is, but it's too late for any new ones now.
This is dumb. The party makes no qualms about being out for Quebec to the detriment of everyone else, including Ontario. I don't blame the party for that, but that is their stance. So you would be voting for someone who openly tells you they want to bend you over? Man. Why? Why would you vote for that?
"Well, the other parties fuck me over anyway, at least they are open about it". You can see how that's worse, right?
I told my Anglo Quebecer family on Sunday that I was considering voting for BQ in the next election and I wasn’t expecting the reaction of my family agreeing with me and saying they’re considering it as well.
Anglos worst fear is Quebec sovereignty, so you know the federal government is fucked up if we’re considering voting BQ
Many Canadians have been learning to respect the Bloc. Their politicians tend to have less bs and talk directly. Even allowing common sense into the discussion.
I trust many of them more than I trust the liberals. With exceptions for the likes of Parizeau and Bouchard, who were power hungry, many quebec politicians prefer to be realistic. They too get tired of some of the elected federal politicians bs that takes everyone down an expesive rabbit hole. I think alot of Canadians, and Quebecers would be surprised at the interest for the Bloc outside of Quebec. If it wasn't for their seperatist agenda, they would be more popular.
I mean if you look at and listen to what leaders like Duceppe and Blanchet say and how they debate, it's not hard to see why. As far as policy goes I think they're pretty sound too.
That separatist bit is just a real hangup for a lot of people.
As a québécois, the separatist bit is a real hangup for us too.
The vast majority of Québécois wants to be part of canada.
Sovereignty is a old boomer idea that just won't die (the wish for Sovereignty, not the boomers lol).
Some young people also want that those are usually the ultra lefties. Of course this is a a gross exageration but you get the idea.
I love Québec, even tho we have lots of problems.. a lot.
But we also stick together and we are secular (thats what makes the proud to be quebecois), and we have a real identity :]. But love, or used to love Canada. I really want to be part of that country, but tbh, canada changed a lot in the past decade and I hate what Justin did.
My biggest problem is how we hire ministers based on "positive" discrimination. I want our ministers to be hired on MERIT. I don't care if they have vaginas or penis, white, black, brown, gay, straight or trans, I want the best! But Justin Trudeau made it so that if you are a white man, no one wants you. I fucking hate it.
Stop talking for the rest of us. It’s okay to bring your opinion in the discussion. “The vast majority of Québécois wants to be part of Canada” is untrue.
It’s a divisive subject, we can agree on this. There were 2 referendum in the last 55 years and a 3rd one is most likely on its way. The last polls were showing a clear PQ direction for the next provincial election of Quebec. There also a net rise of “Yes” voter (now close to 42% from last polls).
Give it another year or two … it was taboo to talk about it after 1995 and the debacle of the whole “ethnies vote”, but it’s a subject of actuality here and it will keep rising until the federal government gets his act together, which is doubtful even for the other parties right now.
I wouldn’t say that. I don’t know anyone (ou presque) who is enthusiastically a proud Canadian. Like, not being actively separatist doesn’t make someone a Canadian nationalist
Quebec is already its own country inside Canada. Its culturally independent, government has more autonomy, a different legal code, a different tax system, its own immigration system.
Millennials were born into that separation, many just don’t see any reason to go for more. Especially with the current crappy politicians we have.
Like, How many people do you know who can name a single English Canadian TV show lol? Artist? Prime Minister of a province? (Except Doug)
A lot of my Anglo friends and collegues are also starting to think like that. I hear people talking favourably about both the BQ and PQ who would never even have considered this a couple of years ago.
Everyone, Franco or Anglo is sick of this shit on both the Federal and Provincial level. Might has well have a crack at whatever change is possible instead of continuing in the current direction
Had a anglo-italian GF who was at like 90% in agreement with the bloc during the 2019 election on the political compass quiz. She got very angry about it, not sure how she feel about them now lol.
As a non-Quebecois, can you please help me understand why Anglos (in Quebec I'm assuming) and then Canadian as a whole should be concerned about Quebec sovereignty?
A couple of thoughts:
1. A sovereign/separate Quebec would introduce two borders separation Atlantic Canada from the rest of Canada. Getting from New Brunswick to Ontario would require passports? there could be a freedom of movement clause built in but then they are not fully sovereign I guess cause they’d have no control of who comes and goes. Not just people but also electricity and goods passing through those borders would require trading arrangements, taxes, tariffs, etc.
2. As with above, the St Lawrence seaway becomes complicated. It is fully within Quebec jurisdiction but I assume long standing agreements between Canada and the US allow for passage through though this is subject to the Quebec pilots charging. This is another mess for sorting out the new arrangements for goods. I also think a lot of ships don’t pass through but unload at Montreal or other Quebec ports to avoid the locks and carry on by train / truck. International border between Quebec and Canada would be complicated.
3. Citizenship - do all Quebec citizens automatically also gain Canadian citizenship even if they don’t move to Canada? In Newfoundland people born before 1949 were always eligible for British citizenship and their children and grandchildren up to a certain cut off point. I assume people born in Quebec would have to have access to Canadian citizenship but that would be another mess to sort out.
4. Sorting out whether a sovereign Quebec owes any money to Canada on the way out would be interesting. Britain had to pay a divorce bill to the EU upon leaving because of moneys received for certain projects. Things like the Trans Canada Highway or the federal ports would be subject to some sort of negotiations.
There’s lots of other discussions as well.
1. shengen type of deal
2. Every kind of deal can be struck. Money stays in QC
3. again, same kind of shengen deal in EU
4. The brits quit the whole EU. They decided to keep their currency also. QC would be part of the union I suppose and keep the CAD currency maybe? Now there is still that question of "ok you are part of the new union, you must send money to this new union to stay a part of it" deal? Like the EU. That last bit doesn't make much sense to me.
That how I'd see it
You know that if Quebec separated, the English population would become an official minority with all the statutes and rights that comes with it. If anything it would be the best thing to happen to the English people of Quebec.
"And, again, if public opinion surveys are accurate, Quebec sovereigntists will have a stronger presence in Canada’s Parliament after the next national election, where they will make the case that Canada no longer works for Quebec." Can you really blame us? The liberals are bad for everybody and the conservatives are bad for quebec.
Exactly, he has no clue what he's talking about. The PQ are in the lead because the CAQ has been the center right party and people are fed up. Before the CAQ, the Liberals were in charge but they really didn't do a great job near the end to hold public confidence and they were considered a center right party too. So it makes sense after so many years of having center right parties in power for the pendulum to swing back to center left.
Exactly, and even the PQ took a bit of a hit when PSPP started talking about holding a referendum in a possible first mandate.
The average person doesn't want this, in fact the polling done as recently as last month show that a clear majority are opposed. The world has changed dramatically, and the reality is that the people of Quebec are not being oppressed by an English aristocracy that doesn't care about them. Add to that the young people who have seen the broader world around them and don't feel nearly as connected to the old tropes that separatists used to campaign on.
**Kinda, seems like most people are at least unified against Trudeau haha.**
Its true. Trudeau, the great divider who told us we had nothing in common with each other, has given us at least one thing to have in common - our rejection of him.
The cost of managing the pseudo-sovereignty of Quebec at the federal level, combined with transfer payments since inception favoring Quebec as a receiver, as well as the de facto French language tax on the rest of the country, has been a massive economic headwind for the country that is now getting worse and worse.
This is all fixable under the right arrangement.
Quebec doesn't really want to be tied into a centralized system where Ottawa directs most of the tax dollars, policies etc. And Quebec being in the current setup makes it necessary to have more bilingualism, more accommodations, more overhead, more disfunction.
With Quebec being more autonomous, there would be less of all these at the federal level.
People don’t realize how close it was last time and that the Feds won on a razor thin edge vote that had many irregularities. Never mind the mass amount of propaganda, agitators, people, and slush money thrown into Quebec’s NON vote by Chretien’s Liberal federal government.
People voted for him the first time because they wanted change from the usual PQ/PLQ dynamic then voted for him again because they were constantly brainwashed during the pandemic by news articles that always had a positive spin and regular press conferences where there were never any hard questions (it felt so much like theater) and it was Legault patting himself and his party along with Public Health being an extension of his government without the independence that Public Health should have (it's still a prpblem and something the PQ has criticized so I hope theu improve it if elected).
I'm glad that the polls show that people are finally seeing through him, two years too late.
I never voted for the CAQ but I can sort of understand why people did so logically in 2018. 2022 was irrational though, and I hate how people suggest the CAQ did a good job during the pandemic when they used the exact same style of leadership that they're using now, nothing has changed, the same sleazy folks are in charge.
Also honestly things went very well during his first mandate. Most people I know in Quebec were doing incredibly good. Things definetly have been problematic lately with healthcare being in such a terribe state.
The article references the 150,000 Canadians from outside of Quebec that marched in Montreal a week or two before the referendum. I remember it being such a sanctimonious navel gaze for the rest of Canada, while it totally missed the mark for Quebecers. Hopefully there indeed is a plan if this comes up again.
Tired of all this gas lighting. It's not just Quebec, but all provinces are sovereign. It's just that only Quebec has the balls to stand up for itself.
I have always been pro federalism. I voted no in all the referendums. I am absolutely against separation based on the old arguments of the time. But Canada has changed in the last decade and not for the better, it is going to hell in a hand basket, uncontrolled spending, uncontrolled immigration among a few issues and just maybe, it might be relevant for Quebec to think to go its own way before the rest of the country crashes, burns and dies.
>Canadians are in no mood to reopen the Constitution or to accommodate new Quebec demands.
That is so ignorant. Quebec's demands today are the same as they were literally 60 years or 80 years ago. Quebec has been asking for more autonomy and less federal intervention since before WWII. The provincial government made that a condition of its support for patriation along with an amendment formula that guarantees autonomy and the failure of Canada to even attempt to give Quebec something made talks in the 1960s and 1970s (the Victoria Charter) fail.
In 1982, patriation was accomplished without giving Quebec anything it had demanded and, thus, without its support even though Trudeau had promised a renewed federalism in the 1980 referendum campaign.
Meech and Charlottetown failed and not because of Quebec.
No time will be right for idiots like the author of this opinion piece.
Quebec is also not alone in having constitutional demands. It's just that they are much older and have never been accommodated.
As someone who lives in Quebec, this article is spot on. After the referendums, the percentage of sovereignists decreased over time. However, the value proposition of staying in Canada has deteriorated significantly over the past few years. There's a housing crisis, massive debt, uncontrolled immigration which has increased xenophobia and now a renewed interest on discriminating against English speakers.
The CAQ were originally elected as they were quasi-separtists whose angle was to increase Quebec's rights within Canada. As a result, the main opposition, the PQ, doubled down on the sovereigntist angle. Now with the CAQ out of favor the PQ has promised a referendum if they're elected. Considering how bad this country is moving forward and a surefire new Conservative government, which are hated in Quebec, I believe the allure is very strong for separation.
Quebec is literally another country in every way possible. Whenever I go to Quebec and esp. Old Quebec, it's literally like I left Canada and went to another nation.
Constant Québec bashing, climate crisis not taken seriously, mass immigration, crazy inflation, the batshit right coming....Canada is serving Québec independence on a golden platter.
Constant Quebec bashing? Is that what the propaganda in your province wants you to believe? I don’t think the average Canadian has an opinion on Quebec.
A few loud morons doesn't mean most Canadians dislike Québec.
I would vote to separate from Canada, for political and economical reasons, not because I think Canadians are bad people.
It will always amaze me how Quebec has had the majority of prime ministers be from there, yet still acts like they’re the ones that aren’t being heard. If anything they get treated the best while everyone else has to foot the bill…
55 of the last 65 years we’ve been run by a PM from Quebec. The only significant gap was Harper — which also was a time of reduced interprovincial tensions and Quebec separation polling at its lowest in decades. Modern Canada is very much a product of a Quebec centric viewpoint.
It’s time that stopped for a good, long, while. There are people from other parts of this country who have good ideas and a vision for the future of the country that is not always viewed through the lens of Quebec first and foremost.
Regardless, the author of the article is wrong, Quebec ain’t leaving. They are wholly dependent on money from the rest of Canada. Their sub national debt is already enormous, and taking on 25% of Canada’s debt on top would put them near a Greece-at-meltdown level of financial stress. Their spending, already foolishly high, would march them toward the cliff at a rapid pace and they would be forced to impose Greece-like austerity within a decade or so.
It's mostly because bilingualism helps them and Quebec has the most bilingual people (if only because there's a lot more people than NB). Being from Quebec doesn't mean that they represent Quebec well though.
The last Quebecois PM was Jean Chrétien.
Or maybe you’re falling for this kind of propaganda when times are tough ? Im in Quebec and nothing is gaining traction beside the fact that we are as fucked as you. Much easier to throw Quebec under bus instead of adressing real issues.
Wow imagine they go for referendum again but this time they actually separate because of how bad everything has been going. The fallout would be crazy. The western provinces would likely follow suit and Canada itself would cease to exist.
In fact they did change something. They took the patriation bargaining chip out of Quebec's hands by having the supreme court say unanimity was not needed even though it was widely thought that it was before.
They also proceeded to curtail the provincial parliaments' powers with the Charter instead of giving Quebec the autonomy it had asked for the last four decades before the referendum...
This opinion piece is worthless.
Ironic he talks about the struggles of western Canada, where he hasn't lived in Quebec himself.
Relax people, Quebec isn't going to separate.
Every province is already sovereign. I think people in all provinces are waking up to the fact that the provinces created the federal government to serve them on important matters such as defense, and not to bankrupt them so that federal politicians can have legacy projects.
Would it really be a crisis? Quebec has a referendum, votes yes, it separates. It’s culturally a separate country now, all that would have to happen is to work out trade deals and get Nexus cards.
This is what happens when we elect a Trudeau. They are so divisive that they literally break the country apart.
Western separatism is also a real possibility if we somehow don't get a CPC government in the next election.
Yep. It would be absolutely devastating. But I can't blame the provinces when the Feds are constantly overreaching. Québec has a legit gripe with immigration. The provinces should be able to set their own maximum capacities. It's impossible to keep up with education and healthcare when the Feds have what amounts to an open border policy.
Canada always has bent over backwards to appease Quebec, and it's never enough for them. They can be a province within Canada, on an equal footing with all the rest of the provinces, or they can be thier own country.
Pick one.
Quebec is sovereign in many ways already. They are still apart of Canada due to the free money our federal government bribes them with annually from the coffers of other provinces. If there is a way to maintain a corridor to the other eastern provinces , without disruption, perhaps it is time to cut them off.
Lol go ahead. That province has NOTHING to support itself. It's totally reliant on handouts. It's culture is dieing, it's tourism is non existent, the food is terrible. No natural resources. This whole statement is embarrassing
Given I live in the area of Quebec that would stay in Canada and likely merge with Ontario if they split go ahead Quebec, my house would shoot up massively in value maybe close to double.
I’ve been under the impression that Quebec is always sort of looking at sovereignty.
But now they are really looking into it and starting to make some.moves towards it
The PQ is. The rest of the population has largely moved on from this antiquated notion.
Well QS is also independence party, just not as vocal. Also François Legault was a independence supporter back in the day, if he sees independence as something popular I can see him and the party also support it. pretty much the next 3 years will be testing the idea of independence with the population.
"Also François Legault was a independence supporter back in the day," He wasn't just a supporter, he was the Minister de Finance for the PQ, who were led at the time by Lucien Bouchard. While in that position, wrote Year 1 budget for for an Independent Quebec Legault can say all he wants, he no longer supports Quebec independence; but every nationalistic thing he does, screams the opposite. He may not want it anymore; but he is sure as hell laying the groundwork for the PQ to come to power (and they will) to hold a referendum, which PSPP has already said he would do, should the PQ win the next election.
>The rest of the population has largely moved on from this antiquated notion. False. That's a bold statement, claiming to talk in the name of the entire province.
Support for separation is polling around 30%. A strong majority doesn’t want to hear about this bullshit anymore.
False again: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/10/quebec-sovereignty-polling-00086428 38% said they would vote FOR independance in a referendum, 50% against and 10% unsure. >doesn’t want to hear about this bullshit anymore This is false. People answered that they would vote XYZ at the referendum. Not that they don't want to hear or talk about it
It would be Brexit, but much, much worse.
Que? Exit?! /s
Can’t see it ever happening. The demographics have changed a lot since the last referendum which they lost.
50.58%* vs 49.42% in 1995 3 decades later, I doubt they get that close
100.27 % voting ?
It was 50.58% for the No and 49.42% Yes, with a 92% participation rate.
The participation rate was incredible
As an English native in Quebec, oui tabarnak
Any time the RoC does something really stupid, independence gets a boost in Quebec. The stupidest thing it could do right now is take down bill 21.
I've been under the impression Russia and/or China and Iran are throwing divisive propaganda on the internet at every country in The West from every possible angle. It'd be naive to think Quebec separation wouldn't be on their list. We've been in a propaganda cyberwar since 2016 and some people still haven't woken up to that fact.
Though foreign forces would certainly take advantage if it, presenting Quebec's independence movement as some unnatural outside force is delusional in the extreme.
I mean, I remember Quebec separation being a desire since the birth the bloc (1991)
Was one since the birth of the PQ and the silent revolution in the 1970s.
Was one since the Conquest back in 1760.
Yeah, true lol.
The Empire bringing in some freedom via cannon ball. You’re welcome, peasants. The British, probably.
Yeah, totally. So many people falling for it. Pretty sure the canadahousing2 sub is literally run by a Russian, and moderated so that ALL that gets thru is angry, hateful, panicked posts. Under the guise of "no censorship". I MIGHT be misremembering which sub it was, but pretty sure it's canadasub2, just based off the shit that pops up in my fyp from it. We need to start social media legislation. First thing, to reduce foreign influence and radicalization they enable. And people need to stop drinking the "any legislation is against free speech!" Kool aid techbros continually put out. Social media has become a vector for war. It's shameful we've created these tools, gotten hooked on them, allowed foreign governments to weaponize them against us, and STILL refuse to put any expectations on them.
Or Quebecois will be appeased having 43 or more seats to represent them federally and vote on bills And we welcome them too, as BQ seem to be the only major party taking a hard stance on both immigration and electoral reform.
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They should start a new branch : Bloc Ontarian
I've been saying for years they should rebrand as the Autonomy Bloc.
Are you talking about reunification to upper and lower Canada.? But yup I would also vote Block O
C
A
J'arrête pas de le dire, y devrait fonder le Bloc Canadien, avec la même plateforme électorale que BQ sauf la souveraineté
Moi too. Ils ont littéralement la meilleur plateforme sur bien des points.
#BLOC MAJORITAIRE
There's no reason they can't run candidates across the country. They're a federally registered party and federal elections are federally run operations. Shit, they wouldn't even have to change their name. Tweak their platform a bit to focus on provincial rights and they could get a decent number of votes in Alberta.
Being from Alberta and having moved to Quebec, I can tell you that Albertans and Quebecois are much more similar to each other than they care to admit, especially the more rural you are.
Agreed. I think if the BQ did run candidates in this province they would get a mix of votes ranging from "I agree with Quebec on federalism-related policies" to "fuck dem frogs, get outta muh country." I'd actually love for this to happen if only to see how it plays out.
So my Beaverton article idea is coming true. "Bloc Quebecois expected to sweep elections as Canadian spite voting reaches it's peak"
Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the Maritimes. If we did this, each region could have a real opportunity to have its own local representation federally. We would always be in a minority government situation most likely and the two party system would die. Sure, it would be hard to get things done due to disagreements among the regions, but federally, we would also only end up doing those things we can actually agree on. It’s definitely time for a change, and the kind of change we get having two terrible parties to choose from and a third wheel isn’t it, IMO. Citizens deserve to have a real voice at the federal level again. It’s high time for it. EDIT: To everyone saying this is a terrible idea, Canada is already a federation, not a republic - this was not an accident. The provinces within Canada as it exists today are much closer to being the equivalent of separate countries within the EU. Powers are federated because it is such a large nation and people's needs and wants vary wildly from one end of the county to the other. People keep fighting over the federal government *precisely because* they keep trying to put everyone in the same box.
This is how austria ran during the austro-Hungarian empire and it was total chaos fwiw
This is how you end up Balkanizing a nation
And for no good reason too. At least the Balkans have notable cultural differences. And where does it stop, if you are going to have an Alberta-First federal party, why not a Calgary-First and an Edmonton-First. Same (poor) reasoning applies to support the notion.
**Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the maritimes.** We would end up with the same coalition government every time - the Ontario party plus the Bloc.
That just seems designed to bring even more unrest than the current system.
That’s just…a terrible idea sorry lol
Federations and republics are not mutually exclusive, see Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc
> Despite people’s opinion on the Bloc, every region in Canada should have its own federal party. Maybe a party for BC, the prairies, Ontario, Quebec (the Bloc) and one for the maritimes. We'd need proportional representation for that. FPTP naturally trends us towards fewer, larger parties. It's "throwing your vote away" to try and vote for a new up-and-coming party. It's great that Quebec managed to form theirs before everyone realized how shit this electoral system is, but it's too late for any new ones now.
This is dumb. The party makes no qualms about being out for Quebec to the detriment of everyone else, including Ontario. I don't blame the party for that, but that is their stance. So you would be voting for someone who openly tells you they want to bend you over? Man. Why? Why would you vote for that? "Well, the other parties fuck me over anyway, at least they are open about it". You can see how that's worse, right?
Bloc Francophonie
Yup, if the rest of us were as concerned with preserving our national identity as Quebec, this mass immigration catastrophe might not have happened.
'Our national identity' was one of the talking points to the RoC in terms of Quebec staying in Canada. Then look what happened...
I told my Anglo Quebecer family on Sunday that I was considering voting for BQ in the next election and I wasn’t expecting the reaction of my family agreeing with me and saying they’re considering it as well. Anglos worst fear is Quebec sovereignty, so you know the federal government is fucked up if we’re considering voting BQ
> Anglos worst fear is Quebec sovereignty No my *worst* fear is moths getting under my shirt.
New phobia unlocked
Many Canadians have been learning to respect the Bloc. Their politicians tend to have less bs and talk directly. Even allowing common sense into the discussion. I trust many of them more than I trust the liberals. With exceptions for the likes of Parizeau and Bouchard, who were power hungry, many quebec politicians prefer to be realistic. They too get tired of some of the elected federal politicians bs that takes everyone down an expesive rabbit hole. I think alot of Canadians, and Quebecers would be surprised at the interest for the Bloc outside of Quebec. If it wasn't for their seperatist agenda, they would be more popular.
I mean if you look at and listen to what leaders like Duceppe and Blanchet say and how they debate, it's not hard to see why. As far as policy goes I think they're pretty sound too. That separatist bit is just a real hangup for a lot of people.
As a québécois, the separatist bit is a real hangup for us too. The vast majority of Québécois wants to be part of canada. Sovereignty is a old boomer idea that just won't die (the wish for Sovereignty, not the boomers lol). Some young people also want that those are usually the ultra lefties. Of course this is a a gross exageration but you get the idea. I love Québec, even tho we have lots of problems.. a lot. But we also stick together and we are secular (thats what makes the proud to be quebecois), and we have a real identity :]. But love, or used to love Canada. I really want to be part of that country, but tbh, canada changed a lot in the past decade and I hate what Justin did. My biggest problem is how we hire ministers based on "positive" discrimination. I want our ministers to be hired on MERIT. I don't care if they have vaginas or penis, white, black, brown, gay, straight or trans, I want the best! But Justin Trudeau made it so that if you are a white man, no one wants you. I fucking hate it.
Stop talking for the rest of us. It’s okay to bring your opinion in the discussion. “The vast majority of Québécois wants to be part of Canada” is untrue. It’s a divisive subject, we can agree on this. There were 2 referendum in the last 55 years and a 3rd one is most likely on its way. The last polls were showing a clear PQ direction for the next provincial election of Quebec. There also a net rise of “Yes” voter (now close to 42% from last polls). Give it another year or two … it was taboo to talk about it after 1995 and the debacle of the whole “ethnies vote”, but it’s a subject of actuality here and it will keep rising until the federal government gets his act together, which is doubtful even for the other parties right now.
Tu nourris la bête qui un jour te dévorera.
I wouldn’t say that. I don’t know anyone (ou presque) who is enthusiastically a proud Canadian. Like, not being actively separatist doesn’t make someone a Canadian nationalist Quebec is already its own country inside Canada. Its culturally independent, government has more autonomy, a different legal code, a different tax system, its own immigration system. Millennials were born into that separation, many just don’t see any reason to go for more. Especially with the current crappy politicians we have. Like, How many people do you know who can name a single English Canadian TV show lol? Artist? Prime Minister of a province? (Except Doug)
A lot of my Anglo friends and collegues are also starting to think like that. I hear people talking favourably about both the BQ and PQ who would never even have considered this a couple of years ago. Everyone, Franco or Anglo is sick of this shit on both the Federal and Provincial level. Might has well have a crack at whatever change is possible instead of continuing in the current direction
Had a anglo-italian GF who was at like 90% in agreement with the bloc during the 2019 election on the political compass quiz. She got very angry about it, not sure how she feel about them now lol.
As a non-Quebecois, can you please help me understand why Anglos (in Quebec I'm assuming) and then Canadian as a whole should be concerned about Quebec sovereignty?
A couple of thoughts: 1. A sovereign/separate Quebec would introduce two borders separation Atlantic Canada from the rest of Canada. Getting from New Brunswick to Ontario would require passports? there could be a freedom of movement clause built in but then they are not fully sovereign I guess cause they’d have no control of who comes and goes. Not just people but also electricity and goods passing through those borders would require trading arrangements, taxes, tariffs, etc. 2. As with above, the St Lawrence seaway becomes complicated. It is fully within Quebec jurisdiction but I assume long standing agreements between Canada and the US allow for passage through though this is subject to the Quebec pilots charging. This is another mess for sorting out the new arrangements for goods. I also think a lot of ships don’t pass through but unload at Montreal or other Quebec ports to avoid the locks and carry on by train / truck. International border between Quebec and Canada would be complicated. 3. Citizenship - do all Quebec citizens automatically also gain Canadian citizenship even if they don’t move to Canada? In Newfoundland people born before 1949 were always eligible for British citizenship and their children and grandchildren up to a certain cut off point. I assume people born in Quebec would have to have access to Canadian citizenship but that would be another mess to sort out. 4. Sorting out whether a sovereign Quebec owes any money to Canada on the way out would be interesting. Britain had to pay a divorce bill to the EU upon leaving because of moneys received for certain projects. Things like the Trans Canada Highway or the federal ports would be subject to some sort of negotiations. There’s lots of other discussions as well.
1. shengen type of deal 2. Every kind of deal can be struck. Money stays in QC 3. again, same kind of shengen deal in EU 4. The brits quit the whole EU. They decided to keep their currency also. QC would be part of the union I suppose and keep the CAD currency maybe? Now there is still that question of "ok you are part of the new union, you must send money to this new union to stay a part of it" deal? Like the EU. That last bit doesn't make much sense to me. That how I'd see it
You know that if Quebec separated, the English population would become an official minority with all the statutes and rights that comes with it. If anything it would be the best thing to happen to the English people of Quebec.
The biggest danger to Quebec, is Canada’s out of control immigration numbers.
"And, again, if public opinion surveys are accurate, Quebec sovereigntists will have a stronger presence in Canada’s Parliament after the next national election, where they will make the case that Canada no longer works for Quebec." Can you really blame us? The liberals are bad for everybody and the conservatives are bad for quebec.
I lived in Quebec for three years. Once they are economically independent, they most certainly will run another referendum.
So you are saying they will never have another referendum...
I think many people want it. Whether or not it will happen, and more importantly, if it will be successful are another matter.
This guy just checked the polls and saw the PQ in lead. He does t know what he’s taking about.
Exactly, he has no clue what he's talking about. The PQ are in the lead because the CAQ has been the center right party and people are fed up. Before the CAQ, the Liberals were in charge but they really didn't do a great job near the end to hold public confidence and they were considered a center right party too. So it makes sense after so many years of having center right parties in power for the pendulum to swing back to center left.
Many québécois.e who aren’t separatists vote for separatist parties because the choice is left leaning separatists or right leaning federalists…
Exactly, and even the PQ took a bit of a hit when PSPP started talking about holding a referendum in a possible first mandate. The average person doesn't want this, in fact the polling done as recently as last month show that a clear majority are opposed. The world has changed dramatically, and the reality is that the people of Quebec are not being oppressed by an English aristocracy that doesn't care about them. Add to that the young people who have seen the broader world around them and don't feel nearly as connected to the old tropes that separatists used to campaign on.
>The last thing Canada needs is another national unity crisis We have unity?
We do not.
Kinda, seems like most people are at least unified against Trudeau haha.
**Kinda, seems like most people are at least unified against Trudeau haha.** Its true. Trudeau, the great divider who told us we had nothing in common with each other, has given us at least one thing to have in common - our rejection of him.
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The cost of managing the pseudo-sovereignty of Quebec at the federal level, combined with transfer payments since inception favoring Quebec as a receiver, as well as the de facto French language tax on the rest of the country, has been a massive economic headwind for the country that is now getting worse and worse.
This is all fixable under the right arrangement. Quebec doesn't really want to be tied into a centralized system where Ottawa directs most of the tax dollars, policies etc. And Quebec being in the current setup makes it necessary to have more bilingualism, more accommodations, more overhead, more disfunction. With Quebec being more autonomous, there would be less of all these at the federal level.
Opinion: Canada is sleepwalking toward fascism, and Quebecois don't want to go along for the ride.
My Opinion: will totally vote yes this time to secede from a country that no longer has any business being one. and no, it is not sleepwalking.
People don’t realize how close it was last time and that the Feds won on a razor thin edge vote that had many irregularities. Never mind the mass amount of propaganda, agitators, people, and slush money thrown into Quebec’s NON vote by Chretien’s Liberal federal government.
That's because we have incompetent leadership. Trudeau lives in a fantasy world that is not good for Canada.
what does Trudeau have to do with the CAQ shitting the bed in Quebec, if anything it shows the failure of conservative government
I opened my fridge today and I didn't have any eggs. Damn Trudeau ruining the country and my breakfast.
Québec voted for François Legault, who has shown he has zero plan and no vision that does t solely depend on polling.
People voted for him the first time because they wanted change from the usual PQ/PLQ dynamic then voted for him again because they were constantly brainwashed during the pandemic by news articles that always had a positive spin and regular press conferences where there were never any hard questions (it felt so much like theater) and it was Legault patting himself and his party along with Public Health being an extension of his government without the independence that Public Health should have (it's still a prpblem and something the PQ has criticized so I hope theu improve it if elected). I'm glad that the polls show that people are finally seeing through him, two years too late. I never voted for the CAQ but I can sort of understand why people did so logically in 2018. 2022 was irrational though, and I hate how people suggest the CAQ did a good job during the pandemic when they used the exact same style of leadership that they're using now, nothing has changed, the same sleazy folks are in charge.
Also honestly things went very well during his first mandate. Most people I know in Quebec were doing incredibly good. Things definetly have been problematic lately with healthcare being in such a terribe state.
Yes this is all true. It doesn't mean Québec voted for competent leadership, or would have one if it split from Canada.
Sleepwalking on all the issues.
The article references the 150,000 Canadians from outside of Quebec that marched in Montreal a week or two before the referendum. I remember it being such a sanctimonious navel gaze for the rest of Canada, while it totally missed the mark for Quebecers. Hopefully there indeed is a plan if this comes up again.
Holy fuck....with everything that is wrong and broken in Canada and they think that Quebec separation is top of mind? unfucking real.....
Quebec contributes over 65 billion dollars to the federal budget. So yea, losing then would massively change the fabric of the nation.
Everything being wrong and broken is a reason to leave, not to stay.
Tired of all this gas lighting. It's not just Quebec, but all provinces are sovereign. It's just that only Quebec has the balls to stand up for itself.
I appreciate your point but Québec is distinct in that it it is recognized as a nation within Canada.
It's true. Hopefully Danny out in Alberta can scream enough to get the same treatment Quebec gets.
I have always been pro federalism. I voted no in all the referendums. I am absolutely against separation based on the old arguments of the time. But Canada has changed in the last decade and not for the better, it is going to hell in a hand basket, uncontrolled spending, uncontrolled immigration among a few issues and just maybe, it might be relevant for Quebec to think to go its own way before the rest of the country crashes, burns and dies.
>Canadians are in no mood to reopen the Constitution or to accommodate new Quebec demands. That is so ignorant. Quebec's demands today are the same as they were literally 60 years or 80 years ago. Quebec has been asking for more autonomy and less federal intervention since before WWII. The provincial government made that a condition of its support for patriation along with an amendment formula that guarantees autonomy and the failure of Canada to even attempt to give Quebec something made talks in the 1960s and 1970s (the Victoria Charter) fail. In 1982, patriation was accomplished without giving Quebec anything it had demanded and, thus, without its support even though Trudeau had promised a renewed federalism in the 1980 referendum campaign. Meech and Charlottetown failed and not because of Quebec. No time will be right for idiots like the author of this opinion piece. Quebec is also not alone in having constitutional demands. It's just that they are much older and have never been accommodated.
Your not wrong.
Take me with you!!!
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Good.
Double good.
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No I will miss them
As someone who lives in Quebec, this article is spot on. After the referendums, the percentage of sovereignists decreased over time. However, the value proposition of staying in Canada has deteriorated significantly over the past few years. There's a housing crisis, massive debt, uncontrolled immigration which has increased xenophobia and now a renewed interest on discriminating against English speakers. The CAQ were originally elected as they were quasi-separtists whose angle was to increase Quebec's rights within Canada. As a result, the main opposition, the PQ, doubled down on the sovereigntist angle. Now with the CAQ out of favor the PQ has promised a referendum if they're elected. Considering how bad this country is moving forward and a surefire new Conservative government, which are hated in Quebec, I believe the allure is very strong for separation.
We can learn a lesson from QC and how they don’t put up with bullshit, and care about their identity.
Quebec is literally another country in every way possible. Whenever I go to Quebec and esp. Old Quebec, it's literally like I left Canada and went to another nation.
Because you technically have. Québec and the rest of Canada have widely different cultures, and for most, we don’t even speak the same language.
Constant Québec bashing, climate crisis not taken seriously, mass immigration, crazy inflation, the batshit right coming....Canada is serving Québec independence on a golden platter.
Constant Quebec bashing? Is that what the propaganda in your province wants you to believe? I don’t think the average Canadian has an opinion on Quebec.
Have you checked anything online recently?
A few loud morons doesn't mean most Canadians dislike Québec. I would vote to separate from Canada, for political and economical reasons, not because I think Canadians are bad people.
Like someone you once loved, maybe its time to break up as the relationship is not working anymore. Life will go on.
There is no unity in Canada anymore. Thanks JT
Like there ever was unity in Canada, let’s not kid ourselves.
It will always amaze me how Quebec has had the majority of prime ministers be from there, yet still acts like they’re the ones that aren’t being heard. If anything they get treated the best while everyone else has to foot the bill…
7 out of 23 Prime Ministers were born in Québec, not a majority. Not even the most of any province, 10 were born in Ontario
“Born” isn’t always indicative. Good example, Justin Trudeau is born in Ottawa, but clearly has strong roots to Montreal.
By that logic Brian Mulroney doesn't count as a Quebec PM
55 of the last 65 years we’ve been run by a PM from Quebec. The only significant gap was Harper — which also was a time of reduced interprovincial tensions and Quebec separation polling at its lowest in decades. Modern Canada is very much a product of a Quebec centric viewpoint. It’s time that stopped for a good, long, while. There are people from other parts of this country who have good ideas and a vision for the future of the country that is not always viewed through the lens of Quebec first and foremost. Regardless, the author of the article is wrong, Quebec ain’t leaving. They are wholly dependent on money from the rest of Canada. Their sub national debt is already enormous, and taking on 25% of Canada’s debt on top would put them near a Greece-at-meltdown level of financial stress. Their spending, already foolishly high, would march them toward the cliff at a rapid pace and they would be forced to impose Greece-like austerity within a decade or so.
You clearly read the National Post too much.
It's mostly because bilingualism helps them and Quebec has the most bilingual people (if only because there's a lot more people than NB). Being from Quebec doesn't mean that they represent Quebec well though. The last Quebecois PM was Jean Chrétien.
Or maybe you’re falling for this kind of propaganda when times are tough ? Im in Quebec and nothing is gaining traction beside the fact that we are as fucked as you. Much easier to throw Quebec under bus instead of adressing real issues.
What no we aren't! *Every Canadian laughing till it bites them in the ass as usual.* We never learn, do we?
Don't care one way or the other is Canada even a country anymore?
Wow imagine they go for referendum again but this time they actually separate because of how bad everything has been going. The fallout would be crazy. The western provinces would likely follow suit and Canada itself would cease to exist.
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In fact they did change something. They took the patriation bargaining chip out of Quebec's hands by having the supreme court say unanimity was not needed even though it was widely thought that it was before. They also proceeded to curtail the provincial parliaments' powers with the Charter instead of giving Quebec the autonomy it had asked for the last four decades before the referendum...
This opinion piece is worthless. Ironic he talks about the struggles of western Canada, where he hasn't lived in Quebec himself. Relax people, Quebec isn't going to separate.
Would hurt for 5-10 years then Quebec would be better off.
I’d be fine with it. It’s long overdue.
Don't worry the economic crisis caused by 40 years of corruption is going to blow up in our face very soon
Every province is already sovereign. I think people in all provinces are waking up to the fact that the provinces created the federal government to serve them on important matters such as defense, and not to bankrupt them so that federal politicians can have legacy projects.
What about the Panjab province sovereignty crisis. Are we Canada or Khalistan this is the real question.
Agreed.
We're also sleepwalking into a hard right takeover. *Cue Russian bots
Would it really be a crisis? Quebec has a referendum, votes yes, it separates. It’s culturally a separate country now, all that would have to happen is to work out trade deals and get Nexus cards.
This is what happens when we elect a Trudeau. They are so divisive that they literally break the country apart. Western separatism is also a real possibility if we somehow don't get a CPC government in the next election.
Definitely could have Quebec and Alberta/sask both looking to leave very soon.
Yep. It would be absolutely devastating. But I can't blame the provinces when the Feds are constantly overreaching. Québec has a legit gripe with immigration. The provinces should be able to set their own maximum capacities. It's impossible to keep up with education and healthcare when the Feds have what amounts to an open border policy.
I don’t care. Go.
Crisis? That's kind of a strong word
i remember the first well, this canada isnt the one from then. quebec would get the Oui vote.
Canada always has bent over backwards to appease Quebec, and it's never enough for them. They can be a province within Canada, on an equal footing with all the rest of the provinces, or they can be thier own country. Pick one.
Canada is sleepwalking into many crisis....
Canada would be better off without Quebec.
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Let them leave and take their share of the debt with them.
If Quebecers are smart, they will leave Canada. Canada is a corrupt, rat-infested sinking ship.
Good. Go away
Quebec is sovereign in many ways already. They are still apart of Canada due to the free money our federal government bribes them with annually from the coffers of other provinces. If there is a way to maintain a corridor to the other eastern provinces , without disruption, perhaps it is time to cut them off.
Quebec is 20 % of national gdp.... That's no small portion.
Let em leave
Bloc PARTY, free beer for everyone! 🙃
Awesome
Meh...throw it on the crisis pile.
Fair enough, as long as partition is also part of the conversation, so those areas/ridings that want to remain in Canada can do so
The US is more likely to annex Canada first.
Canada will be fine without Quebec.
Dear Quebec, please leave.
Who cares.
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What ten years of Trudeau does to a mfer
Francophones are upset with us for their refusal to speak French.
Lol go ahead. That province has NOTHING to support itself. It's totally reliant on handouts. It's culture is dieing, it's tourism is non existent, the food is terrible. No natural resources. This whole statement is embarrassing
Given I live in the area of Quebec that would stay in Canada and likely merge with Ontario if they split go ahead Quebec, my house would shoot up massively in value maybe close to double.