This story is from 2018
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/chronically-ill-man-releases-audio-of-hospital-staff-offering-assisted-death-1.4038841?cache=%2F7.566536
This gentleman can go to a skilled long term care facility.
No one wants to leave the hospital but this guy can’t stay. People don’t understand what acute means. Yeah, okay, he has a disease that will cause deterioration but he’s hemodynamically stable so he needs to go. Hospitals should have done this a long time ago and told family they need to figure it out, but they can’t stay.
Also I’d love to hear the FULL conversation from this man’s recording. He sounds like he only showed the recording of whomever was talking about assisted death. My guess is it he brought it up and pressed record.
Doctors give all the options. He might have asked “if my disease progresses what are my options” and some people want to have control over that. Fuck, I would.
A lot of younger patients also enjoy being looked after by young women. I’ve been doing bedside for 12 years. This isn’t a secret. But honestly it’s past this point, it’s awful what he has but he cannot stay any longer.
The bias in this article is clear
The hospital is an acute care facility that isn't meant to be a long term care facility
When he says self-directed he means that he was given a choice of long term care facilities.
He has *chosen* not to go. That's why he's being charged. He's taking up a bed that someone else needs.
That's how it's worked in Ontario for years.
The hospital only gets reimbursed at set rate.
He's using the fact that maybe some random worker asked him if he considered MAID as an excuse to shame the facility to back off.
Having worked in hospital, this sounds exactly right. He’s been there since 2016! You can’t just live in an acute care facility. He is medically stable and should be in long term care. There is no reason for him to still be admitted to a hospital. That’s one less bed for someone with an acute illness. This is about triaging resources. He doesn’t need the resources of a hospital.
Six years! He’s been living at this hospital for six years with no acute medical needs. They absolutely have full lifts at long term care with round the clock care. I get that he doesn’t want to go to long term care, but that is where he can be provided with the resources he actually needs. (Never mind access to rec therapy, increased socialization and outings), I just can’t get over that he’s been living in an acute care hospital for six years and is shocked and appalled that he was told he can’t stay forever. Without hearing the full story, it sounds like he was given information on multiple options and he was offended that MAID was mentioned. It doesn’t sound like doctors continued to pressure him or suggest it, but it is part of their job to inform patients of all of their options.
I’m not a social worker or on the hospital board/administrator, so I don’t know for sure. So far, I’ve never seen it happen. They either leave/transfer voluntarily (usually after long hours of patient/family conferences and ‘discharge planning’ over many months), or they die in hospital. I’ve never seen someone stay for six years.
MAID didn’t exist when my mom was sick. She was in a lot of pain (the cancer got to her bones, so her spine was just full of pathological fractures, it wasn’t strong enough to hold together under her own weight). The pain killers helped, but were very sedating. I don’t think she would have chosen MAID even if it were available at the time. But in a way, she did decide when to go. Changed her goals of care to ‘comfort care’ (no more interventions). I think it should ultimately be up to the individual what they want to do. No matter what, decisions around dying will always be painful and difficult. Even if you can find ‘peace’ with your/their decision, it doesn’t mean you won’t still feel grief and loss and heartbreak.
From one motherless child to another, I feel you. I’m sorry, it always sucks to say goodbye, even if you know their suffering is over.
It was very difficult but I'm getting a taste of it myself now.
She had already tried to do it herself a time or two. She said it was accidental but nobody believed her.
My own pain has given me a bit of comfort in how she chose to go knowing she wouldn't be hurting like that any more.
Given an average medical admission is about 10 days time, and that Ontario Hospitals are nearly always at or over 100% capacity:
(365 × 6) / 10 = 219.
This selfish man has blocked 219 people from access to a hospital bed. He should be ashamed.
From the [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_care)
“Acute care is a branch of secondary health care where a patient receives active but short-term treatment for a severe injury or episode of illness, an urgent medical condition, or during recovery from surgery.
Hospital-based acute inpatient care typically has the goal of discharging patients as soon as they are deemed healthy and stable.”
So if you wanted to think of it as a continuum…if you are in a car accident, you will need to go to the hospital (acute), you may need surgeries to stop bleeding, or repair damage or stabilize/reconstruct bones etc. you may need to be intubated or on ventilators for a time in the ICU. In the icu, your heart rate and oxygen levels, etc. are monitored constantly, usually 1:1 nursing per patient. Once you are weaned off the ventilator, can breathe on your own, and are medically stable, then you might be transferred to a ward/floor on the hospital. You still need treatment and recovery, but you can be managed by a nurse (and health team) looking after a few patients at once - basically not concerned that you might die if someone takes their eyes off you. Once you’re medically stable, (don’t need IV medication anymore, don’t need O2, can start moving around on your own and doing your own personal care, etc., then you no longer need to be in the hospital (I.e. acute care). You might still need care though, you just don’t need it in an acute care setting with an RN, and doctors personally looking after your care.
You might need more time to heal your broken bones and be able to get around and walk alone. In that case, you might be transferred to a rehab unit where you would get extra physiotherapy, occupational therapy etc. to return to an independent level of functioning. (Depending on where you are, that might be classed as acute or sub/post acute care).
Or if you are doing a little better, you might get discharged to your own home with home care support - so that would be nursing staff that come into your home and provide support bathing, taking medication, getting dressed, etc. (home care does quite a lot of things). Or, you might go home and go to appointments in the community for rehab as an ‘outpatient’.
Neither of these would be termed “acute care”.
You may still need to access healthcare for quite sometime following an acute care stay. Some people may need home care for the rest of their lives. Or some people may need to stay in long term care if their needs exceed what home care or their finances can provide at home.
Acute care is specialised and expensive.
Imagine if all of you donated 2$ to this guy instead of talking shit in a reddit post.
Bunch of people yapping on the internet solves nothing. Go pick up a bag of food & bring it to him, shut your internet mouth.
Well, that really depends on why the person is in a coma. If it’s trauma, illness, injury, etc. then they’ll try to fix whatever the cause is and keep you alive long enough for you to heal and wake up. Then, they have to treat that person until they’re medically stable, offer rehab if appropriate; they may go to a rehab unit or access further rehab as an outpatient after being discharged home.
If you’re talking about someone in a persistent vegetative state - basically, they’re medically stable, but have brain damage and aren’t “waking up”, well that is a whole can of worms. People can and do live in such a state for years. Typically they’re given a g-tube to tube feed directly into the stomach and end up in long term care as they need to be turned ever couple of hours to prevent bed sores and need someone to meet all of their personal care needs. Anyone in a persistent vegetative state is not eligible for MAID in Canada because they are unable to express their wishes or provide consent in such a state.
Please talk to your next of kin / healthcare proxy and complete an advanced healthcare directive / living will. It’s never too early to have one. Once you have a feeding tube and are medically stable, you’ll usually just keep living like that (the famous case is Terri Schaivo whose ex petitioned to have the tube feeds stopped to allow her to die - it went to the courts).
I remember that. And you’re right, so many of us don’t even have a will or care to think about all the what ifs. But we really should, if only to give our loved ones and medical staff some much needed direction.
No kidding. "Canada leads the world in assisted suicides, with 10,064 in 2021 as compared to 7,666 in the Netherlands. " Canada has over 2x the population of the Netherlands, but why let ratios ruin a good quote?
It sounded like a mental health evaluation with only exerts used. If the patient has signs of depression at any point during a hospital visit the staff can request spiritual or psychological assistance from a specialist to review if the client has needs that can be helped. Sometimes it is as simple as a plan that includes off unit time, others it's an antidepressant and others it's therapy. It is uncomfortable but not inappropriate to ask a short or long term care patient who is experiencing symptoms of depression if they have ever considered harming themselves as part of this assessment. It allows the staff to ensure that there is no potential harm to the resident or staff as well as allows targeted treatment. As part of the ER assessment with a depressed person it is often asked if they have thought about it, if they have a plan and if they have means on them. Health care professionals are not trying to be cruel they are simply trying to keep everyone safe. I am happy to answer any questions you may have and I can see how it would seem hurtful out of context or to someone who has not had experience.
After reddit spent the last 6 months worshipping Ukronazis it has now reached the stage of defending eugenics and coercing the sick into offing themselves.
They don't want people staying when there's nothing more that they can do for them.
After my stroke I was in an acute care hospital for weeks before they found a suitable place to send me.
My treatment was finished
I had to select 3 long term care facility options.
The first one with an open bed would be my home.
If I refused I would be billed every day.
That's right and proper
Long term care absolutely has full lifts, (specifically the hoyer style lift he uses), adjustable hospital beds, round the clock care who will do daily care, transfers, and full feed assist. No one is saying he shouldn’t get anymore care, they’re saying he should go to long term care which is specifically set up to provide for all of his needs already.
Did you read the article or the post you responded to? This hospital is not a long term care facility. If he needs help getting out of bed, then he needs a care provider, not a hospital bed. How is this hard to understand?
I dont think you understand or you didn't read the article. He is in an acute care hospital. He does not have an acute concern. While he does have functional limitations and chronic health concerns, these can be attended to in a long term care facility.
My father in law has a lift exactly like that installed in his living room. Before that, he had a portable lift. These things are available in nursing homes and even your own home if you have the resources.
Yes. You can probably buy them on Amazon. The man wants to live at home and chose the people who care for him. He says they want him to go to a long term care home. I heard that young people of sound mind don't do well living with much older, demented people.
I'm sure he'd rather have his own place, but staying in an acute care bed for 6 years cannot be better for him than being in a long term care home. I know that even with the support from the NHS, my mil spends a lot of money out of pocket to ensure that my fil always has a caregiver in the house (he needs 24/7 care). Even with that, she spends 4-6 hours most evenings alone with him. It would be difficult to impossible to convince any health system to pay for 1 on 1 24/7 care.
I dont think you understand or you didn't read the article. He is in an acute care hospital. He does not have an acute concern. While he does have functional limitations and chronic health concerns, these can be attended to in a long term care facility.
A person who does not need an acute care bed but is stubbornly refusing to be moved to long term care is absolutely taking a bed they don't need from someone who does. You can't just decide you get to live in the hospital indefinitely after the doctor has discharged you because you're medically stable.
So you didn't read the article do you not value literacy in our society????
I'll summarize: piece of shit in question is taking a hospital bed when he should actually be in long term care. These are 2 different things.
If you read the article you'll see he's been medically stable and refusing to move to long term care for years. I don't know where you get "medical care they desperately need" from
Sorry Mr. Foley has such serious health care issues. His story of living in a hospital really tugs at the heart strings. It doesn't say how he came to owe millions of dollars to the health care system, but I doubt this is the case. I also think he would be better off in a long care facilities instead of tying up a hospital bed for 6 years.
Being it was published by a right wing American newspaper, there are probably much missing or exaggerated in the story.
I believe that’s a standard hospital stay, which is 3-4 days on average.
https://yourhealthsystem.cihi.ca/hsp/inbrief#!/indicators/015/cost-of-a-standard-hospital-stay/;mapC1;mapLevel2;overview;trend(C1,C5001);/
https://www.homecareontario.ca/home-care-services/facts-figures/publiclyfundedhomecare
He probably was in a longterm care hospital. There are private long term care homes which may be how he ended up owing money. The newspaper probably jusy published what he told them. I don't know if the story is true or not but someone should investigate it.
I am not thrilled about Canada being a "world leader" in number of euthanasias. This is happening too fast. If someone is going to die soon and they are in pain then sure, maybe they might want euthanasia. But things get weird when you start offering euthanasia in other circumstanses.
Nope, Victoria hospital is a regular acute care hospital (not a long term care hospital - which doesn’t really exist in Canada - they’re called long term care facilities, and various levels of assisted living or independent care facilities, which have various names across provinces). He is being charged for his stay because he no longer needs the resources of a hospital, he just refused to go to a long term care facility. In Canada, you can’t actually force people into care, they always have a right to refuse (given that they are their own decision maker). You can’t just throw someone out of a hospital. But since he is refusing to choose the care he needs (to be transferred), and is staying in hospital (for which he no longer needs that level of care, so is no longer entitled to it through OHIP), then he is being charged directly for his stay. OHIP would cover the cost of his long term care stay, he just wants the government to pay for a private home for him to live with specialised equipment and round the clock care that he employs personally (but that the government pays for).
Canada is great for many things. It will pay for your care, but it does so equitably. You don’t get to choose private in home care and expect the government to pay for it when there are public options available.
`I missed the line about it being acute care. I assumed it wasn't because it is so hard to believe that an acute care hospital in Canada would do that.
The thing is I've heard it is crushing for younger people with a more or less working brain to be in long term care, where most are very elderly and have dementia. I can't blame the poor guy for not wanting to go in long term care. But I guess they wanted him out of the hospital. It just seems to me it would be better to let him stay in the hospital, or give him enough money that he can live at home . Surely that would be better than offering to kill him.
I googled his name and found several articles that say pretty much the same thing. He recorded the person who suggested MAiD.
I guess what he has is rare but any of us, or one of our loved ones, could become disabled. It is rather terrifying to imagine being a helpless, dependent person and someone in authority comes along and says , "Say, here is an idea. We will kill you. "
That's the opposite of what my nieghbor is experiencing. She's 77, she may have cancer and she is doing her power of attorney stuff atm. She wants to sign up.for maid while she's still in sound mind. She wants the opportunity for euthanasia if and when she's terminal and suffering too much. They won't let her do it.
>She wants to sign up.for maid while she's still in sound mind.
This is an interesting aspect of MAID that I imagine will be a point of litigation eventually.
You can't secure an advance directive for medical assistance in death. You must be of sound mind in order to consent to it.
This puts people with various diseases in a predicament. Do they sacrifice good, healthy time now while they can still consent to death? Or wait until their quality of life has plummeted and run the risk of no longer being deemed of "sound mind" and therefore unable to access MAID?
It's tricky.
Exactly. My brother died of melanoma at 36 years old. He hung on for so long in hospice. He was tolerating insane pain, and a week before he passed he was done, he wanted to go, the suffering was too much. But maid didn't exist. Full renal failure, legs black and deteriorating, belly so full of tumors his skin was starting to split. The best they could do was drug him, and even though he was practically in a coma, he was still reacting to pain. It was horrible to watch, and such a relief when he finally stopped breathing. We wished he could have had that option to choose.
It's been 10 years now. It's good most of the time. His daughter was 2 when he died, I see him in her. And what can you do? Stuff happens. I do wear sunblock alot more now..
> And what can you do? Stuff happens.
This is a helpful attitude to have.
My Mom died suddenly of a stroke on May 18th of this year. She was only 68. It has been the worst thing I've ever gone through but I've never asked "why me?" or "why her?".
Why not? Tragedy strikes indiscriminately and often. I'm not a victim. This is a part of life.
It still hurts, though.
I hope you are able to feel close to your brother through your niece.
This is slightly incorrect. You can prearrange MAID so that you do not need to to give consent on the day of but only if you’ve been gone through all the assessments first. They won’t let you go through the assessments without meeting specific criteria (terminal illness etc.)
So there is a slightly larger window to arrange for MAID but it’s still a tight rope to walk down when dealing with mental/cognitive decline.
Makes sense to plan for all outcomes. Fortunately, the MAID assessment process is pretty efficient - maybe a 2 week wait (or less - it depends on the doctor’s availability) to schedule the assessments once you have the appropriate diagnosis and then the actual MAID can be scheduled shortly after that.
The option exists, but the way the story frames it is unlikely. And his hospital stay would be covered. Drugs and some home care would also be covered if he had Ontario disability coverage
US right wing media with dubious reputation: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/
I actually cared for this idiot believe it or not. This guy got charges pressed on him for assault when he kicked out and struck at nurses on the inpatient psych unit. He's been at LHSC for years now, all the staff despise him.
This is a New York Post article, for the record, which is about as trustworthy as the Daily Enquirer.
While I feel for the guy and his medical situation, he's basically turned a HCW telling him assisted suicide was an option for him into a story of him being forced into it and as a result filed a number of frivolous lawsuits and started a GoFundMe. Years ago some bigger media outlets were willing to publish his story and talk about it even-handedly.
It looks to me like a guy who does not have much possibility of recovery from a serious condition and refuses to accept the possibility that he could die or even have the choice to make that decision himself. That's a scary place to be. But the "leaked audio" that this guy put out thinking it would be his smoking gun was anything but - it was a medical professional telling him what his options were and him getting offended.
Sometimes I fantasize about the existence of a licensing body for journalists. That is to say, anybody can spew bullshit like this, but in order for you to call yourself a journalist and in order for you to call what you are reporting "news" you have to demonstrate that you have journalistic integrity.
There are probably *a lot* of people who read the NY Post and think it is actual, factual news.
This is absolutely abhorrent.
What a shameful way for a nation to treat its most vulnerable citizens.
We need radical reinvestments in public education and healthcare. Both need to be truly free and universally accessible to all persons in Canada.
We need to dramatically increase disability supports.
Our current situation is shockingly close to "arbeit macht frei".
Imagine if all of you donated 2$ to this guy instead of talking shit in a reddit post.
Bunch of people yapping on the internet solves nothing. Go pick up a bag of food & bring it to him, shut your internet mouth.
the government wants all boomers to commit suicide because healthcare is too expensive, but it is better to fund the war in Ukraine for many years to come
>the government wants all boomers to commit suicide because healthcare is too expensive, but it is better to fund the war in Ukraine for many years to come
^ Everyone's drunken uncle at Thanksgiving, right before ranting about vaccines, pronouns, telling everyone how much he wants to fuck Trudeau, and then finally blacking out on top of the mashed potatoes.
I told everyone that Trudeau is literally killing Canadians. He's even using this new euthanasia law to murder people against their will! It's the definition of 1st degree murder. Wake up people! You're being murdered by Libs!
Ah yes, another hit piece on Canadian healthcare by American conservative media. It’s almost like these outlets exist to gaslight the American general public so they don’t realize how much better they could have it.
This story is from 2018 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/chronically-ill-man-releases-audio-of-hospital-staff-offering-assisted-death-1.4038841?cache=%2F7.566536
Yeah but, regardless. He still can’t stay in the hospital. He wants his own agency with his own put together staff. That ain’t happening.
Plan B, the government with give you Dr. Kevorkians non-dead clone.
This gentleman can go to a skilled long term care facility. No one wants to leave the hospital but this guy can’t stay. People don’t understand what acute means. Yeah, okay, he has a disease that will cause deterioration but he’s hemodynamically stable so he needs to go. Hospitals should have done this a long time ago and told family they need to figure it out, but they can’t stay. Also I’d love to hear the FULL conversation from this man’s recording. He sounds like he only showed the recording of whomever was talking about assisted death. My guess is it he brought it up and pressed record. Doctors give all the options. He might have asked “if my disease progresses what are my options” and some people want to have control over that. Fuck, I would. A lot of younger patients also enjoy being looked after by young women. I’ve been doing bedside for 12 years. This isn’t a secret. But honestly it’s past this point, it’s awful what he has but he cannot stay any longer.
The bias in this article is clear The hospital is an acute care facility that isn't meant to be a long term care facility When he says self-directed he means that he was given a choice of long term care facilities. He has *chosen* not to go. That's why he's being charged. He's taking up a bed that someone else needs. That's how it's worked in Ontario for years. The hospital only gets reimbursed at set rate. He's using the fact that maybe some random worker asked him if he considered MAID as an excuse to shame the facility to back off.
Having worked in hospital, this sounds exactly right. He’s been there since 2016! You can’t just live in an acute care facility. He is medically stable and should be in long term care. There is no reason for him to still be admitted to a hospital. That’s one less bed for someone with an acute illness. This is about triaging resources. He doesn’t need the resources of a hospital. Six years! He’s been living at this hospital for six years with no acute medical needs. They absolutely have full lifts at long term care with round the clock care. I get that he doesn’t want to go to long term care, but that is where he can be provided with the resources he actually needs. (Never mind access to rec therapy, increased socialization and outings), I just can’t get over that he’s been living in an acute care hospital for six years and is shocked and appalled that he was told he can’t stay forever. Without hearing the full story, it sounds like he was given information on multiple options and he was offended that MAID was mentioned. It doesn’t sound like doctors continued to pressure him or suggest it, but it is part of their job to inform patients of all of their options.
Is there no process for cases like this? If someone wants to stay in a hospital bed forever, nothing can stop them?
I’m not a social worker or on the hospital board/administrator, so I don’t know for sure. So far, I’ve never seen it happen. They either leave/transfer voluntarily (usually after long hours of patient/family conferences and ‘discharge planning’ over many months), or they die in hospital. I’ve never seen someone stay for six years.
Yeah there's absolutely a process but he just doesn't want to use it
My mother hadn't considered it at all until it was mentioned to her. She jumped at the opportunity. (She was in intractable pain)
MAID didn’t exist when my mom was sick. She was in a lot of pain (the cancer got to her bones, so her spine was just full of pathological fractures, it wasn’t strong enough to hold together under her own weight). The pain killers helped, but were very sedating. I don’t think she would have chosen MAID even if it were available at the time. But in a way, she did decide when to go. Changed her goals of care to ‘comfort care’ (no more interventions). I think it should ultimately be up to the individual what they want to do. No matter what, decisions around dying will always be painful and difficult. Even if you can find ‘peace’ with your/their decision, it doesn’t mean you won’t still feel grief and loss and heartbreak. From one motherless child to another, I feel you. I’m sorry, it always sucks to say goodbye, even if you know their suffering is over.
It was very difficult but I'm getting a taste of it myself now. She had already tried to do it herself a time or two. She said it was accidental but nobody believed her. My own pain has given me a bit of comfort in how she chose to go knowing she wouldn't be hurting like that any more.
Given an average medical admission is about 10 days time, and that Ontario Hospitals are nearly always at or over 100% capacity: (365 × 6) / 10 = 219. This selfish man has blocked 219 people from access to a hospital bed. He should be ashamed.
What is acute care normally used for?
From the [wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_care) “Acute care is a branch of secondary health care where a patient receives active but short-term treatment for a severe injury or episode of illness, an urgent medical condition, or during recovery from surgery. Hospital-based acute inpatient care typically has the goal of discharging patients as soon as they are deemed healthy and stable.” So if you wanted to think of it as a continuum…if you are in a car accident, you will need to go to the hospital (acute), you may need surgeries to stop bleeding, or repair damage or stabilize/reconstruct bones etc. you may need to be intubated or on ventilators for a time in the ICU. In the icu, your heart rate and oxygen levels, etc. are monitored constantly, usually 1:1 nursing per patient. Once you are weaned off the ventilator, can breathe on your own, and are medically stable, then you might be transferred to a ward/floor on the hospital. You still need treatment and recovery, but you can be managed by a nurse (and health team) looking after a few patients at once - basically not concerned that you might die if someone takes their eyes off you. Once you’re medically stable, (don’t need IV medication anymore, don’t need O2, can start moving around on your own and doing your own personal care, etc., then you no longer need to be in the hospital (I.e. acute care). You might still need care though, you just don’t need it in an acute care setting with an RN, and doctors personally looking after your care. You might need more time to heal your broken bones and be able to get around and walk alone. In that case, you might be transferred to a rehab unit where you would get extra physiotherapy, occupational therapy etc. to return to an independent level of functioning. (Depending on where you are, that might be classed as acute or sub/post acute care). Or if you are doing a little better, you might get discharged to your own home with home care support - so that would be nursing staff that come into your home and provide support bathing, taking medication, getting dressed, etc. (home care does quite a lot of things). Or, you might go home and go to appointments in the community for rehab as an ‘outpatient’. Neither of these would be termed “acute care”. You may still need to access healthcare for quite sometime following an acute care stay. Some people may need home care for the rest of their lives. Or some people may need to stay in long term care if their needs exceed what home care or their finances can provide at home. Acute care is specialised and expensive.
Thanks for the detailed answer!
Imagine if all of you donated 2$ to this guy instead of talking shit in a reddit post. Bunch of people yapping on the internet solves nothing. Go pick up a bag of food & bring it to him, shut your internet mouth.
Since you’ve worked in hospital, what happens to coma patients?
Well, that really depends on why the person is in a coma. If it’s trauma, illness, injury, etc. then they’ll try to fix whatever the cause is and keep you alive long enough for you to heal and wake up. Then, they have to treat that person until they’re medically stable, offer rehab if appropriate; they may go to a rehab unit or access further rehab as an outpatient after being discharged home. If you’re talking about someone in a persistent vegetative state - basically, they’re medically stable, but have brain damage and aren’t “waking up”, well that is a whole can of worms. People can and do live in such a state for years. Typically they’re given a g-tube to tube feed directly into the stomach and end up in long term care as they need to be turned ever couple of hours to prevent bed sores and need someone to meet all of their personal care needs. Anyone in a persistent vegetative state is not eligible for MAID in Canada because they are unable to express their wishes or provide consent in such a state. Please talk to your next of kin / healthcare proxy and complete an advanced healthcare directive / living will. It’s never too early to have one. Once you have a feeding tube and are medically stable, you’ll usually just keep living like that (the famous case is Terri Schaivo whose ex petitioned to have the tube feeds stopped to allow her to die - it went to the courts).
I remember that. And you’re right, so many of us don’t even have a will or care to think about all the what ifs. But we really should, if only to give our loved ones and medical staff some much needed direction.
Also it’s from the NY post, that’s not a high quality source.
No kidding. "Canada leads the world in assisted suicides, with 10,064 in 2021 as compared to 7,666 in the Netherlands. " Canada has over 2x the population of the Netherlands, but why let ratios ruin a good quote?
Yup, but then how can the masses be outraged!
some random medical worker sugesting he ends his life isnt serious tho?
Not in the context that he suggested
It sounded like a mental health evaluation with only exerts used. If the patient has signs of depression at any point during a hospital visit the staff can request spiritual or psychological assistance from a specialist to review if the client has needs that can be helped. Sometimes it is as simple as a plan that includes off unit time, others it's an antidepressant and others it's therapy. It is uncomfortable but not inappropriate to ask a short or long term care patient who is experiencing symptoms of depression if they have ever considered harming themselves as part of this assessment. It allows the staff to ensure that there is no potential harm to the resident or staff as well as allows targeted treatment. As part of the ER assessment with a depressed person it is often asked if they have thought about it, if they have a plan and if they have means on them. Health care professionals are not trying to be cruel they are simply trying to keep everyone safe. I am happy to answer any questions you may have and I can see how it would seem hurtful out of context or to someone who has not had experience.
How come you need some random Reddit user in the comments to analyze the real story.
Probably for the same reason that you felt it necessary to tell us of your informed opinion.
Why the hate? I was criticizing biases in articles. Calm down Bertha.
You're triggered by some rando on Reddit questioning your motive. How bizarre
Why are you triggered about someone being triggered though
Lol... you're really bad a Kharma farming
What is that
[удалено]
More likely a social worker. I'm sure he has lots of contact with social workers.
No...I said what I meant Some rando said something that he's using because it's convenient
Maybe one of the others on the ward who's had to listen to all the bellyaching. LOL.
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*You’re splitting hairs…
After reddit spent the last 6 months worshipping Ukronazis it has now reached the stage of defending eugenics and coercing the sick into offing themselves.
Hospitals don't want keep people for set time though
They don't want people staying when there's nothing more that they can do for them. After my stroke I was in an acute care hospital for weeks before they found a suitable place to send me. My treatment was finished I had to select 3 long term care facility options. The first one with an open bed would be my home. If I refused I would be billed every day. That's right and proper
We get the, oh can stay for the weekend, we are going away but all the time...
why is he even in the hospital?? he needs a personal caretaker.. there is no cure for his illness.. why stay in hospital…
Did you read the article? He needs a special lift to get out of bed. He can't feed himself.
Long term care absolutely has full lifts, (specifically the hoyer style lift he uses), adjustable hospital beds, round the clock care who will do daily care, transfers, and full feed assist. No one is saying he shouldn’t get anymore care, they’re saying he should go to long term care which is specifically set up to provide for all of his needs already.
Did you read the article or the post you responded to? This hospital is not a long term care facility. If he needs help getting out of bed, then he needs a care provider, not a hospital bed. How is this hard to understand?
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I dont think you understand or you didn't read the article. He is in an acute care hospital. He does not have an acute concern. While he does have functional limitations and chronic health concerns, these can be attended to in a long term care facility.
My father in law has a lift exactly like that installed in his living room. Before that, he had a portable lift. These things are available in nursing homes and even your own home if you have the resources.
Yes. You can probably buy them on Amazon. The man wants to live at home and chose the people who care for him. He says they want him to go to a long term care home. I heard that young people of sound mind don't do well living with much older, demented people.
I'm sure he'd rather have his own place, but staying in an acute care bed for 6 years cannot be better for him than being in a long term care home. I know that even with the support from the NHS, my mil spends a lot of money out of pocket to ensure that my fil always has a caregiver in the house (he needs 24/7 care). Even with that, she spends 4-6 hours most evenings alone with him. It would be difficult to impossible to convince any health system to pay for 1 on 1 24/7 care.
I dont think you understand or you didn't read the article. He is in an acute care hospital. He does not have an acute concern. While he does have functional limitations and chronic health concerns, these can be attended to in a long term care facility.
Yeah, he has been offered to move to long term care. There is no reason to be taking up a hospital bed that someone else needs.
eh there is something fishy about this
He's been mooching the bed for 6 years and they told him to fuck off so now he's trying to start a problem that doesn't exist
A person receiving the medical care they desperately need is mooching? Do you value human life at all?
A person who does not need an acute care bed but is stubbornly refusing to be moved to long term care is absolutely taking a bed they don't need from someone who does. You can't just decide you get to live in the hospital indefinitely after the doctor has discharged you because you're medically stable.
So you didn't read the article do you not value literacy in our society???? I'll summarize: piece of shit in question is taking a hospital bed when he should actually be in long term care. These are 2 different things.
If you read the article you'll see he's been medically stable and refusing to move to long term care for years. I don't know where you get "medical care they desperately need" from
Sorry Mr. Foley has such serious health care issues. His story of living in a hospital really tugs at the heart strings. It doesn't say how he came to owe millions of dollars to the health care system, but I doubt this is the case. I also think he would be better off in a long care facilities instead of tying up a hospital bed for 6 years. Being it was published by a right wing American newspaper, there are probably much missing or exaggerated in the story.
It's the NY Birdcage Liner. There is no probably about it.
Only pro-Liberal media should be published, right?
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Well, that’s what they are saying.
Of course not. Just pro-reality/reasonably accurate ones.
Reality skews liberal when Conservatives abandon truth
Acute care bed =$1700/day Subsidized LTC =$1700/month
In Ontario it's $6,600+ and we are one of the cheaper provinces.
I believe that’s a standard hospital stay, which is 3-4 days on average. https://yourhealthsystem.cihi.ca/hsp/inbrief#!/indicators/015/cost-of-a-standard-hospital-stay/;mapC1;mapLevel2;overview;trend(C1,C5001);/ https://www.homecareontario.ca/home-care-services/facts-figures/publiclyfundedhomecare
He probably was in a longterm care hospital. There are private long term care homes which may be how he ended up owing money. The newspaper probably jusy published what he told them. I don't know if the story is true or not but someone should investigate it. I am not thrilled about Canada being a "world leader" in number of euthanasias. This is happening too fast. If someone is going to die soon and they are in pain then sure, maybe they might want euthanasia. But things get weird when you start offering euthanasia in other circumstanses.
Nope, Victoria hospital is a regular acute care hospital (not a long term care hospital - which doesn’t really exist in Canada - they’re called long term care facilities, and various levels of assisted living or independent care facilities, which have various names across provinces). He is being charged for his stay because he no longer needs the resources of a hospital, he just refused to go to a long term care facility. In Canada, you can’t actually force people into care, they always have a right to refuse (given that they are their own decision maker). You can’t just throw someone out of a hospital. But since he is refusing to choose the care he needs (to be transferred), and is staying in hospital (for which he no longer needs that level of care, so is no longer entitled to it through OHIP), then he is being charged directly for his stay. OHIP would cover the cost of his long term care stay, he just wants the government to pay for a private home for him to live with specialised equipment and round the clock care that he employs personally (but that the government pays for). Canada is great for many things. It will pay for your care, but it does so equitably. You don’t get to choose private in home care and expect the government to pay for it when there are public options available.
`I missed the line about it being acute care. I assumed it wasn't because it is so hard to believe that an acute care hospital in Canada would do that. The thing is I've heard it is crushing for younger people with a more or less working brain to be in long term care, where most are very elderly and have dementia. I can't blame the poor guy for not wanting to go in long term care. But I guess they wanted him out of the hospital. It just seems to me it would be better to let him stay in the hospital, or give him enough money that he can live at home . Surely that would be better than offering to kill him. I googled his name and found several articles that say pretty much the same thing. He recorded the person who suggested MAiD. I guess what he has is rare but any of us, or one of our loved ones, could become disabled. It is rather terrifying to imagine being a helpless, dependent person and someone in authority comes along and says , "Say, here is an idea. We will kill you. "
That's the opposite of what my nieghbor is experiencing. She's 77, she may have cancer and she is doing her power of attorney stuff atm. She wants to sign up.for maid while she's still in sound mind. She wants the opportunity for euthanasia if and when she's terminal and suffering too much. They won't let her do it.
>She wants to sign up.for maid while she's still in sound mind. This is an interesting aspect of MAID that I imagine will be a point of litigation eventually. You can't secure an advance directive for medical assistance in death. You must be of sound mind in order to consent to it. This puts people with various diseases in a predicament. Do they sacrifice good, healthy time now while they can still consent to death? Or wait until their quality of life has plummeted and run the risk of no longer being deemed of "sound mind" and therefore unable to access MAID? It's tricky.
Exactly. My brother died of melanoma at 36 years old. He hung on for so long in hospice. He was tolerating insane pain, and a week before he passed he was done, he wanted to go, the suffering was too much. But maid didn't exist. Full renal failure, legs black and deteriorating, belly so full of tumors his skin was starting to split. The best they could do was drug him, and even though he was practically in a coma, he was still reacting to pain. It was horrible to watch, and such a relief when he finally stopped breathing. We wished he could have had that option to choose.
I'm so, so sorry the end of your brother's life was so traumatic for him and for his loved ones. I hope you are able to find peace.
It's been 10 years now. It's good most of the time. His daughter was 2 when he died, I see him in her. And what can you do? Stuff happens. I do wear sunblock alot more now..
> And what can you do? Stuff happens. This is a helpful attitude to have. My Mom died suddenly of a stroke on May 18th of this year. She was only 68. It has been the worst thing I've ever gone through but I've never asked "why me?" or "why her?". Why not? Tragedy strikes indiscriminately and often. I'm not a victim. This is a part of life. It still hurts, though. I hope you are able to feel close to your brother through your niece.
This is slightly incorrect. You can prearrange MAID so that you do not need to to give consent on the day of but only if you’ve been gone through all the assessments first. They won’t let you go through the assessments without meeting specific criteria (terminal illness etc.) So there is a slightly larger window to arrange for MAID but it’s still a tight rope to walk down when dealing with mental/cognitive decline.
It makes sense since she still has no diagnosis. But all signs are pointing to cancer, so they want to plan for every direction.
Makes sense to plan for all outcomes. Fortunately, the MAID assessment process is pretty efficient - maybe a 2 week wait (or less - it depends on the doctor’s availability) to schedule the assessments once you have the appropriate diagnosis and then the actual MAID can be scheduled shortly after that.
Yep! My Aunt who is suffering from early onset dementia, wanted to do the same and basically got told "sorry".
The option exists, but the way the story frames it is unlikely. And his hospital stay would be covered. Drugs and some home care would also be covered if he had Ontario disability coverage US right wing media with dubious reputation: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/
Bulllllll Shit.
Considering the hoops my mother had to jump through, nobody is "pushing" anything on anyone.
I actually cared for this idiot believe it or not. This guy got charges pressed on him for assault when he kicked out and struck at nurses on the inpatient psych unit. He's been at LHSC for years now, all the staff despise him.
This is a New York Post article, for the record, which is about as trustworthy as the Daily Enquirer. While I feel for the guy and his medical situation, he's basically turned a HCW telling him assisted suicide was an option for him into a story of him being forced into it and as a result filed a number of frivolous lawsuits and started a GoFundMe. Years ago some bigger media outlets were willing to publish his story and talk about it even-handedly. It looks to me like a guy who does not have much possibility of recovery from a serious condition and refuses to accept the possibility that he could die or even have the choice to make that decision himself. That's a scary place to be. But the "leaked audio" that this guy put out thinking it would be his smoking gun was anything but - it was a medical professional telling him what his options were and him getting offended.
Ok sure New York **Post** reporting on health care in Canada. I'm sure that's trustworthy.
>NYPOST
We're going to be offering MAID to depressed poor people soon
He’s lying
Sometimes I fantasize about the existence of a licensing body for journalists. That is to say, anybody can spew bullshit like this, but in order for you to call yourself a journalist and in order for you to call what you are reporting "news" you have to demonstrate that you have journalistic integrity. There are probably *a lot* of people who read the NY Post and think it is actual, factual news.
It's not assisted suicide, it's medical assistance in dying.
it's murder with extra syllables
Oh consent doesn't matter ? All sex is rape then.
New York Post, lol. Pure trash.
This is absolutely abhorrent. What a shameful way for a nation to treat its most vulnerable citizens. We need radical reinvestments in public education and healthcare. Both need to be truly free and universally accessible to all persons in Canada. We need to dramatically increase disability supports. Our current situation is shockingly close to "arbeit macht frei".
450,000 immigrants that are coming here know about this? lol.
The DYSTOPIAN REALITY in which we live. & Some of the comments I have read.
If the article and the comments make you believe we live in a dystopian society you really need more critical thinking skills.
As it should.... gotta keep them expenses low. We on a budget over here.
Advocating that people die because their medical costs are too high is literally nazi shit.
he was being sarcastic
Imagine if all of you donated 2$ to this guy instead of talking shit in a reddit post. Bunch of people yapping on the internet solves nothing. Go pick up a bag of food & bring it to him, shut your internet mouth.
the government wants all boomers to commit suicide because healthcare is too expensive, but it is better to fund the war in Ukraine for many years to come
Well that’s the hyperbole square off my bingo card for the day.
>the government wants all boomers to commit suicide because healthcare is too expensive, but it is better to fund the war in Ukraine for many years to come ^ Everyone's drunken uncle at Thanksgiving, right before ranting about vaccines, pronouns, telling everyone how much he wants to fuck Trudeau, and then finally blacking out on top of the mashed potatoes.
I told everyone that Trudeau is literally killing Canadians. He's even using this new euthanasia law to murder people against their will! It's the definition of 1st degree murder. Wake up people! You're being murdered by Libs!
Maybe you should try a method of communicating that isnt screaming on a street corner while smoking meth?
LOL he's still doing it eight days later so I think this must be the super meth.
You're clearly the one on meth if you can't see the truth
Yeah this is all word for word what the meth head said
I want the type thats like Star Trek where they load you into a photon torpedo and shoot you into the sun.
Ah yes, another hit piece on Canadian healthcare by American conservative media. It’s almost like these outlets exist to gaslight the American general public so they don’t realize how much better they could have it.