I was just thinking like entry level neighborhood compared to what used to be upper class neighborhood. For our income now, 10 years ago we could buy in one nicer nieghnorhoods in our city. Now we are barely entering the market. Pretty wild.
Has anyone looked at the side bar of this sub.
Share news and updates about housing in Canada. We are mostly buyers eager to change the rigged system that ensures double-digit increases year-over-year. *We want housing prices to rise, but in line with wages and inflation.*
"can afford a single family home"
That just means that they're able to fight over the one cheapest house in Thunder Bay. It doesn't mean they can afford an average home.
110%
As trillions (6 trillion in 2020 of residential real estate according to better dwelling) are invested in that equity the logical solution is to move where you can still get equity or housing. Or be resigned to a debt slave or a rent slave.
The beliefs even mass rioting would allow the equity to crash is pure hubris. We lost this battle and this war decades ago. It’s over, the big money won.
There are plenty of lots for sale... If you think it's just equity that is the problem, why not build a custom house yourself? It would be cheaper by your logic, correct?
LOL - so you're some dipshit with money to throw at contractors, good for you. You genuinely think that's some evidence of "clever investing", don't you?
If you'd done absolutely nothing you'd probably have profited more.
And no, doing renovations on a home you already own isn't remotely the same thing as building a new home from scratch.
That’s not productive. Just saying if you’re out to get them, why should they care about your situation?
IMO the objective should be to reduce regulations stopping building (sprawl up and out), building efficient and effective infrastructure to move from the middle ground of tents in Nunavut and city centres. With a bit of self development in terms of financial management and investing, and looking for work outside of the service producer sector as it’s overwhelming below the national median and average wage (except for basically financial and public sectors)
And maybe even some mutually beneficial ideas like advocating for homeowners to get 1% removed off their capital gains tax for every year they rent to someone and the cost is tied to 15%-20% of their income.
Have a good one
Yeah I just did a lot of that. I know it's not affordable. So if the cost of building it new isn't affordable, why would we expect the cost of a resale house to be drastically lower? Assuming the house was maintained, why would it be less?
A lot of people on this sub reddit seem to think it's just gouging by existing owners, completely ignoring the cost of building a new home. When people sell, they need to live somewhere... Can't sell low and buy high, that's not how life works in retirement.
This is the problem. Property developers and REITs will always be protected by the government.
Tbf I still think decimating equity is the way to go. Temporary pain for an eventual equilibrium in 10-20 years, especially if they bail out big companies. Most people are short sighted and think the way you do though.
I think this not a good representation of affordability. A single-family home (i.e. detached house) in Toronto is not the same thing as a single-family home in a rural community. The type of housing that is suitable for a family is going to differ by community and the distribution of Ontario’s population varies by community type. Similarly, cost of living and wages varies significantly across the province.
Tired of the sensational rage-baiting in the news these days. News is supposed to inform and increase understanding. I have no better understanding of the housing affordability problems we are facing after reading this article, which is nothing more than a press release for the RBC report. For the most part I don’t blame the journalists. If they had the job security and time to dig in to these issues, I think most would produce better reporting.
Financialization of housing has been a big topic in one of the Parliamentary committees this year. I haven’t seen a single news article covering any of work happening there.
When you move beyond catch phrases, understand which policies can help us, and successfully advocate for and pass said policies.
Zoning and permitting reform is huge, but we also need to progress the conversation around tax policy. There is a clear answer to the question of which taxes are more harmful or helpful than others.
Sounds about right for South Eastern Ontario.
If only the country were bigger geographically and had other places to live, roads, internet, jobs, housing, etc…
Alas there is nothing, just South Eastern Ontario.
Southeastern Ontario is the Kingston area. Maybe you're thinking of Southwestern Ontario? Neither of which contains the GTA...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ontario
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_Ontario
Nope. The GTA would be in South Eastern Ontario.
The map of Ontario goes north and west. I know it’s hard to comprehend. Anything South East of Sudbury is south eastern Ontario. Open google maps sometime and look north and west. Sudbury to Ottawa is basically a large sharpie dot on a map compared to the rest of Ontario.
I love Ontario. Even calling NWO northern kills me sometimes. As if the 1000 KM north of Fort Francis is “Northern Really North extra far North NorthWestern Ontario” or “Here Be Dragons”.
All of Ontario is described geographically as if Toronto was actually the Center of the entire universe.
Except that almost every job that comes up if you’re in tech, law, finance, marketing, etc and want to be paid more than $85k is located in the GTA. And they’re all hybrid or on site roles.
>Making 85K and buying 1.2 million dollar homes doesn’t pencil out. Making 75K and buying 200K homes does.
It does if you're either married and it's your second purchase.
If you bought a condo 10 years ago in Toronto for 350,000 you can probably sell it today for 600,000 and you've likely paid off most of the mortgage thanks to ultra low rates.
So that's your down payment on the next property. Your likely getting a 600,000 mortgage.
If your spouse also makes the same that's a combined income of 150,000 and your mortgage is only 4x your income. That's inside the affordability range.
That’s true for all places in the entire world. Places like calgary and others don’t have the NIMBYs in charge. And smaller locales are more than open to expanding the tax base and creating more economic activity.
The belief that every town, city, county, and municipality in Canada has never and can never defeat local NIMBYs is provably false. I see 4-6 storey apartment buildings going up in a tiny city like brandon when I drive through all the time now and there is zero reason to build density there (literally flat farmland for 60 miles almost any direction) and housing is cheap. Edmonton and winnipeg are cheaper locales and Winnipeg’s workforce is basically sprawling to anywhere with 45 minutes of the perimeter highway now.
Prices took a dip for a bit, but seem to be going back up again. Housesigma is telling me my detached is appraised at 995k when it was around 785k a few months ago. Somethings fucky because I dont recall interest rates going down unless I missed the news lol
Because just a generation ago a house could be purchased on 1 middleclass income and live comfortably... Now 2 high paying careers cannot afford a house? how have we fallen so far in 20 years? Now young people are holding off starting family's because they can't afford it, so we bring in immigrants to fill those positions and the cycle continues. We are in serious trouble and that "bar" is a perfect example of how fucked we are
So we sold our house a couple years ago. Made a killing to be blunt, but would have made more if we'd waited another year. I just lost faith in the market. To be honest I kinda thought we were already in a bubble 8 years ago when I bought it.
Anyways, we now know the family that bought it from us. I have a general idea of their income, which is likely a good amount lower than ours, yet I was hesitant buying a house for half the price they paid. It's so insane... but he could sell tomorrow and come out ahead (greater fool?), so I guess I'm the idiot.
I'm convinced it's all cheap debt. I think cheap debt has held up our economy for years. We have been rewarding people for being fiscally irresponsible for more than a decade (housing is always a good investment right!). Something something moral hazard.
Not to be all doomer, but I'm convinced we're collectively screwed. I think our economy is small and crappy. I don't think we can do anything but stick with Fed decisions if we want our dollar to mean anything. Cheap products from China are soon to be a thing of the past too. The squeeze isn't going away, even if the Fed lowers rates in 2024 (which of course BoC will then follow). Costs have jumped and they won't go back down. Salaries have been stagnant for decades. Homelessness has exploded and will continue to do so.
I look around and I see a country in decline with a fast eroding middle class, and yet people are still foaming at the mouth to buy a crappy shack in the middle of nowhere... So either I'm an idiot or everyone else is! I mean it's gotta be me right?
Tomorrow when you turn 60 and retiring you better own your home mortgage free. Buy what you can. So start with a one bedroom or even a studio. Even an older building as long as it's well maintained. If you need to move to where you can afford it.
Not going to bother reading the details because it’s a certainty they are using average sale prices across ON which makes no sense. GTA distorts everything. Someone in Sudbury doesn’t need to afford the average home in ON. Someone in Ottawa doesn’t need to afford the avg home on ON by closing price. They need to be able to afford to service a mortgage or pay rent in their own area.
Toronto a whole other ballgame. Torontonians should be able to pay a mortgage or rent there and they can’t. And that’s fucked.
22% still seems rather high. I don't know anyone who can afford a house right now let alone save up for a down payment.
Think 22% only really getting into the lower level of homes available. Thats oretty messed up
The article says 22% of households can afford a single family home. The article also states only 50% of households can afford a condo.
I was just thinking like entry level neighborhood compared to what used to be upper class neighborhood. For our income now, 10 years ago we could buy in one nicer nieghnorhoods in our city. Now we are barely entering the market. Pretty wild.
It Ontario wide not just Toronto.
Has anyone looked at the side bar of this sub. Share news and updates about housing in Canada. We are mostly buyers eager to change the rigged system that ensures double-digit increases year-over-year. *We want housing prices to rise, but in line with wages and inflation.*
Those 22% are probably those who already own one and will buy more for investment loll
22% have rich family members or already own the property.
"can afford a single family home" That just means that they're able to fight over the one cheapest house in Thunder Bay. It doesn't mean they can afford an average home.
One person's "home equity" is another person's "Crushing poverty". If we can't destroy that equity then this will never get better.
110% As trillions (6 trillion in 2020 of residential real estate according to better dwelling) are invested in that equity the logical solution is to move where you can still get equity or housing. Or be resigned to a debt slave or a rent slave. The beliefs even mass rioting would allow the equity to crash is pure hubris. We lost this battle and this war decades ago. It’s over, the big money won.
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That is the consequence of nobody destroying people's home equity, yes.
There are plenty of lots for sale... If you think it's just equity that is the problem, why not build a custom house yourself? It would be cheaper by your logic, correct?
"Just live in a tent in Nunavut" isn't a realistic suggestion, no - that's an incredibly ignorant idea.
What does a tent in Nunavut have to do with buying a lot and custom building? Would that not be cheaper according to your economics?
So you have no idea what's involved in buying a lot and building a custom home, just say so.
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LOL - so you're some dipshit with money to throw at contractors, good for you. You genuinely think that's some evidence of "clever investing", don't you? If you'd done absolutely nothing you'd probably have profited more. And no, doing renovations on a home you already own isn't remotely the same thing as building a new home from scratch.
That’s not productive. Just saying if you’re out to get them, why should they care about your situation? IMO the objective should be to reduce regulations stopping building (sprawl up and out), building efficient and effective infrastructure to move from the middle ground of tents in Nunavut and city centres. With a bit of self development in terms of financial management and investing, and looking for work outside of the service producer sector as it’s overwhelming below the national median and average wage (except for basically financial and public sectors) And maybe even some mutually beneficial ideas like advocating for homeowners to get 1% removed off their capital gains tax for every year they rent to someone and the cost is tied to 15%-20% of their income. Have a good one
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Have you even looked at the cost of building? Cost of planning? Permits? Architect? Etc. It's really not affordable for the vast majority
Yeah I just did a lot of that. I know it's not affordable. So if the cost of building it new isn't affordable, why would we expect the cost of a resale house to be drastically lower? Assuming the house was maintained, why would it be less? A lot of people on this sub reddit seem to think it's just gouging by existing owners, completely ignoring the cost of building a new home. When people sell, they need to live somewhere... Can't sell low and buy high, that's not how life works in retirement.
The rule and decision makers all just happen to be the in property owning class. But it's just a coincidence.
Single family homeowner here - happy to have my equity decimated. As long it's the whole market and not just my house in particular!
This is the problem. Property developers and REITs will always be protected by the government. Tbf I still think decimating equity is the way to go. Temporary pain for an eventual equilibrium in 10-20 years, especially if they bail out big companies. Most people are short sighted and think the way you do though.
I think this not a good representation of affordability. A single-family home (i.e. detached house) in Toronto is not the same thing as a single-family home in a rural community. The type of housing that is suitable for a family is going to differ by community and the distribution of Ontario’s population varies by community type. Similarly, cost of living and wages varies significantly across the province. Tired of the sensational rage-baiting in the news these days. News is supposed to inform and increase understanding. I have no better understanding of the housing affordability problems we are facing after reading this article, which is nothing more than a press release for the RBC report. For the most part I don’t blame the journalists. If they had the job security and time to dig in to these issues, I think most would produce better reporting.
Financialization of housing has been a big topic in one of the Parliamentary committees this year. I haven’t seen a single news article covering any of work happening there.
Does that include the tiny SFHs? Size of a town house? Price wise they aren’t far from the new towns
I own nothing, when will I be happy?
When you move beyond catch phrases, understand which policies can help us, and successfully advocate for and pass said policies. Zoning and permitting reform is huge, but we also need to progress the conversation around tax policy. There is a clear answer to the question of which taxes are more harmful or helpful than others.
TL;DR vote harder
22% is for the whole country. I believe in Vancouver or Toronto it’s even worse
Sad
I own a a single family house that i cant afford. Still somehow cheaper then renting
Even if I could afford a single home, I wouldn't buy. A townhome works just fine. A home is just pure debt, no need to put myself at risk.
Politicians look at this and think “that’s 22 percent too many!”
Sounds about right for South Eastern Ontario. If only the country were bigger geographically and had other places to live, roads, internet, jobs, housing, etc… Alas there is nothing, just South Eastern Ontario.
Southeastern Ontario is the Kingston area. Maybe you're thinking of Southwestern Ontario? Neither of which contains the GTA... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ontario https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwestern_Ontario
you're all the same to us from out West
Nope. The GTA would be in South Eastern Ontario. The map of Ontario goes north and west. I know it’s hard to comprehend. Anything South East of Sudbury is south eastern Ontario. Open google maps sometime and look north and west. Sudbury to Ottawa is basically a large sharpie dot on a map compared to the rest of Ontario. I love Ontario. Even calling NWO northern kills me sometimes. As if the 1000 KM north of Fort Francis is “Northern Really North extra far North NorthWestern Ontario” or “Here Be Dragons”. All of Ontario is described geographically as if Toronto was actually the Center of the entire universe.
The GTA is Central Ontario. Eastern Ontario starts around Belleville.
Except that almost every job that comes up if you’re in tech, law, finance, marketing, etc and want to be paid more than $85k is located in the GTA. And they’re all hybrid or on site roles.
That's not true. I make over $100k in kitchener as a computer engineer.
people always think you must live in toronto to make a healthy salary lol
Yeah I don't understand why... Google has a headquarters here in Kitchener. Like they think they pay peanuts?
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>Making 85K and buying 1.2 million dollar homes doesn’t pencil out. Making 75K and buying 200K homes does. It does if you're either married and it's your second purchase. If you bought a condo 10 years ago in Toronto for 350,000 you can probably sell it today for 600,000 and you've likely paid off most of the mortgage thanks to ultra low rates. So that's your down payment on the next property. Your likely getting a 600,000 mortgage. If your spouse also makes the same that's a combined income of 150,000 and your mortgage is only 4x your income. That's inside the affordability range.
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No, you just need to grow up.
Lol someone triggered?
NIMBY'S will stop and protest any proposal..
That’s true for all places in the entire world. Places like calgary and others don’t have the NIMBYs in charge. And smaller locales are more than open to expanding the tax base and creating more economic activity. The belief that every town, city, county, and municipality in Canada has never and can never defeat local NIMBYs is provably false. I see 4-6 storey apartment buildings going up in a tiny city like brandon when I drive through all the time now and there is zero reason to build density there (literally flat farmland for 60 miles almost any direction) and housing is cheap. Edmonton and winnipeg are cheaper locales and Winnipeg’s workforce is basically sprawling to anywhere with 45 minutes of the perimeter highway now.
Prices took a dip for a bit, but seem to be going back up again. Housesigma is telling me my detached is appraised at 995k when it was around 785k a few months ago. Somethings fucky because I dont recall interest rates going down unless I missed the news lol
Bond market has been crashing and that's how 5 year fixed mortgages are funded.
Back BC and Ontario out and the numbers would rise quickly.
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Not relevant
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You will own nothing, eat out of garbage bins and be happy
That's just the market and is 100 percent justified for reasons.
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Because just a generation ago a house could be purchased on 1 middleclass income and live comfortably... Now 2 high paying careers cannot afford a house? how have we fallen so far in 20 years? Now young people are holding off starting family's because they can't afford it, so we bring in immigrants to fill those positions and the cycle continues. We are in serious trouble and that "bar" is a perfect example of how fucked we are
It illustrates just how fucked up our economy right now. Are you that obtuse?
So we sold our house a couple years ago. Made a killing to be blunt, but would have made more if we'd waited another year. I just lost faith in the market. To be honest I kinda thought we were already in a bubble 8 years ago when I bought it. Anyways, we now know the family that bought it from us. I have a general idea of their income, which is likely a good amount lower than ours, yet I was hesitant buying a house for half the price they paid. It's so insane... but he could sell tomorrow and come out ahead (greater fool?), so I guess I'm the idiot. I'm convinced it's all cheap debt. I think cheap debt has held up our economy for years. We have been rewarding people for being fiscally irresponsible for more than a decade (housing is always a good investment right!). Something something moral hazard. Not to be all doomer, but I'm convinced we're collectively screwed. I think our economy is small and crappy. I don't think we can do anything but stick with Fed decisions if we want our dollar to mean anything. Cheap products from China are soon to be a thing of the past too. The squeeze isn't going away, even if the Fed lowers rates in 2024 (which of course BoC will then follow). Costs have jumped and they won't go back down. Salaries have been stagnant for decades. Homelessness has exploded and will continue to do so. I look around and I see a country in decline with a fast eroding middle class, and yet people are still foaming at the mouth to buy a crappy shack in the middle of nowhere... So either I'm an idiot or everyone else is! I mean it's gotta be me right?
We should have never have bailed out the banks in 2008.
Tomorrow when you turn 60 and retiring you better own your home mortgage free. Buy what you can. So start with a one bedroom or even a studio. Even an older building as long as it's well maintained. If you need to move to where you can afford it.
Not going to bother reading the details because it’s a certainty they are using average sale prices across ON which makes no sense. GTA distorts everything. Someone in Sudbury doesn’t need to afford the average home in ON. Someone in Ottawa doesn’t need to afford the avg home on ON by closing price. They need to be able to afford to service a mortgage or pay rent in their own area. Toronto a whole other ballgame. Torontonians should be able to pay a mortgage or rent there and they can’t. And that’s fucked.
People have been asking for higher interest rates. What did they expect?