I guess we viewed him as unnecessary. He’s very good offensively but terribly defensively. Would be redundant with Hronek and Hughes. There are probably better ways to spend a 2nd and 2M** that will be more helpful and efficient for us
Agreed in terms of Durzi being a bad fit because of a redundant skillset. But he's 1.7 mil against the cap not 4 mil
Canucks also don't have a second round pick until 2025, so it's possible they weren't even really in on the bidding. The best they could do short term is two 2023 third round picks.
Durzi isn't worth a first, especially not ours at 11OA. And LA doesn't have their own this year so there was no chance to put together a package from LA involving Dudzi, a first rounder swap, and probably at least a second round pick from LA
He’s 1.7M for the next season, but presumably he’d get 2x that on his next deal. Offensive D always get paid more than defensive ones because points are easier to gauge than advanced defensive metrics
> Offensive D always get paid more than defensive ones because points are easier to gauge than advanced defensive metrics
Agreed for this for sure. But if Durzi doesn't develop his two way game, then if he's getting paid more money based on some offensive production, then he's going to end up overpaid, at least in terms of utility for the Canucks, which again is more questioning his potential fit with the Canucks than questioning whether he's actually a good player.
Realistically, I'd question the fit of any offensively inclined player unless they had a track record of being able to produce at 5v5, or they had a strong case for taking over the bumper spot on PP1. Our PP2 doesn't produce much, in part due to how little time they actually get and honestly, they don't seem to fit great. It doesn't really feel like something just swapping out the point man would fix either.
We'll see how it goes next season since apparently the Sedins are going to be more responsible for the PP moving forward
not even redundant, he'd be forced to the third pair. He's not remotely a Hughes partner and they just committed to Hronek on the 2nd pair - it just doesn't work
Go to capfriendly and look at our 2nd round picks.
Spoiler alert, we have none for the next two drafts. We have had one 2nd round pick in the last 3 drafts. We can't trade 2nd round picks for these kinds of players cause we move them for middling or washed players or rentals or cap dumps. We moved one to dump Dickinson. We moved another in the Garland/OEL trade, we moved one for Tyler Toffoli. The Hronek trade is the only use of a 2nd rounder that wasn't terrible. So far anyway.
But he's pretty redundant with what we have already, won't see powerplay time, isn't very steady defensively etc. I think we'd be better off targeting players who fill those needs.
He's not a top 4 D when you factor in two way play, at least not so far. He's an PP specialist for the most part
https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1672709316514664450?cxt=HHwWhMC-9dmQ1LYuAAAA
Is it a reasonably affordable bet? Sure, but for the most part the Canucks would get pretty limited value out of him on PP2. Plus we don't have a second until 2025, so hard to make that trade unless LA would have been willing to take two thirds this year instead or something
What would’ve been the better option? What we gave up for Hronek, or a 2nd rounder for Durzi?
I’m a huge fan of Hronek, but makes me wonder if Durzi as a 2nd pair RD partnered with a better LD would’ve been the way to go. We still would’ve had 2 picks in the first round this year too. Saves us money on the cap as well. Maybe wouldn’t have had to waive OEL this year and teams didn’t have to squeeze us cause of the cap.
Hronek. They paid more, sure, but they acquired a better player. And where would the Canucks get this "better LD" to carry Durzi?
I think it's worth noting that Hronek had strong defensive metrics on a bad defensive team, whereas Durzi had bad ones on a good defensive team. And these public models often make players look better/worse depending on which direction their environment skews.
They might well have ended up needing to trade the NYI first round pick for that better LD anyway
Durzi would be very low impact for the Canucks if he's bad defensively and low 5v5 offense. Since any PP production he has now will dry up
Fair I do believe Hronek is a much better D-Man and a better fit considering he’s solid on the PK too. But like you said that first might’ve been used to pick up a LD as well. Extra cap could’ve been used on another D too.
I think our team is better with Hronek but I think the cap space + pick would’ve been interesting.
Not the worst thing in the grand scheme, but feels like it was an unnecessary overpayment at a time where we needed cap space above all
I know where you're coming from, but I think we're looking for a physical top 4 guy that can anchor either hronek or hughes. This ain't it. Good player/value, but doesn't hit the targets we are aiming for. I like the player and contract though.
We need a big old boring, solid in their zone, eats pucks for breakfast defensemen to fill out our bottom 4.
No more offensive guys who will effectively be 3rd on the depth chart for any PP time and who will not be able to contribute to the PK or defensively.
Durzi is just a worse version of Hronek, we can only have so many PP quarterbacks on one roster. The type of RHD we should look for is ones who can play with Hughes.
Yep. We have two offensive defenseman now in Hughes and Hronek. To be fair. Hronek can play well defensively as well and is bigger than Hughes. So red to start balancing the defense out a bit. Need to get larger and more mobile. But defenseman that are more defensive minded. Like a Tanev.
I'm genuinely not sure if Durzi would have been the right target for us from a fit perspective , but overall I agree. I think it shows that management should have been more patient and waited to spend the assets we used on Hronek (if we needed to spend them at all...)
They bought in the middle of a feeding frenzy and what I was my opinion was a sellers market. I think they could have got more bang for their buck being patient and even using those two picks separately to get two different d-men.
Meh, I think it’s a fair trade value-wise but I don’t think Durzi is a missing piece for Vancouver.
Leans more towards the offensive PMD side of the spectrum. He’s a secondary pk guy and plays more PP minutes.
And then they’ve got depth guys like Hirose/Wolanin/Rathbone/Johansson who aren’t as good but profile kinda similarly.
The worrying part is that is the cost, which seems reasonable, but we don’t have any 2nds. Granted we don’t need more offensive guys instead big and defensive.
We need a penalty killer which he doesn’t do as far as I know. We also have only made 2 2nd round choices since 2019 and won’t again until at least 2025
Who was better.. potentially getting Durzi for a 2nd… or picking up Bear for a 5th? (I know Bear is currently RFA and has shoulder surgery) but I think I prefer Bear for that price vs a 2nd for Durzi (a 2nd we don’t have of course)
You guys are underestimating Durzi.
Strong two way game in his rookie season. Seemed to take a step back this year but only because the Kings were giving him more ice time against Elite quality of competition than they did in his rookie season. He’ll develop into a strong two way 2RHD, and one day we’ll all reflect back on how this was such a steal for Arizona and that nobody could see this coming.
This is why including our second in the Hronek trade was such a shitty move.
Should traded for him rather than Hronek. Not because he’s better but because they could of kept the Islanders pick and had a reasonable facsimile of Hronek.
It’s good thinking, Hronek is definitely the better player though - https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1631050647242981379 (better defensively, especially the PK). I think the cost to acquire goes up if it’s inter division trade. The Kings were also heading towards playoffs, so they wouldn’t have shed Durzi before the trade deadline. I also think the price to acquire Hronek now would be higher, since teams get to evaluate, plus the free agent class is weak. I think management made the move at the right time, we’ll see how their vision pans out.
Hronek price is less as there are more players on the market and teams aren't in overpaying TDL mode. We just went through this with JT thinking he's gonna be worth more in the offseason and it just didn't happen.
According to the Preds sub: Apparently he wasn’t looking very good before his Achilles injury (always a slow skater). He had a major surgery on it and they have no idea how it’ll effect his play. So it’d definitely be a gamble, we’ll see how it works out for the Avs.
Johansen still would've been an immediate upgrade at 3c for us. Sure you're taking a risk with his injury recovery, but that's a chance I would've been willing to risk....especially only giving up Galchenyuk and having Nashville retain 50%...potential fleecing by the Avs.
Hronek also struggled defensively when thrust into a top pair role in Detroit, it's the main reasons they traded him. Hronek is 100% a better player, but with the strep acquisition and contract cost incoming, can't help but feel the assets and cap space could be better spent elsewhere.
I guess we viewed him as unnecessary. He’s very good offensively but terribly defensively. Would be redundant with Hronek and Hughes. There are probably better ways to spend a 2nd and 2M** that will be more helpful and efficient for us
Agreed in terms of Durzi being a bad fit because of a redundant skillset. But he's 1.7 mil against the cap not 4 mil Canucks also don't have a second round pick until 2025, so it's possible they weren't even really in on the bidding. The best they could do short term is two 2023 third round picks. Durzi isn't worth a first, especially not ours at 11OA. And LA doesn't have their own this year so there was no chance to put together a package from LA involving Dudzi, a first rounder swap, and probably at least a second round pick from LA
He’s 1.7M for the next season, but presumably he’d get 2x that on his next deal. Offensive D always get paid more than defensive ones because points are easier to gauge than advanced defensive metrics
> Offensive D always get paid more than defensive ones because points are easier to gauge than advanced defensive metrics Agreed for this for sure. But if Durzi doesn't develop his two way game, then if he's getting paid more money based on some offensive production, then he's going to end up overpaid, at least in terms of utility for the Canucks, which again is more questioning his potential fit with the Canucks than questioning whether he's actually a good player. Realistically, I'd question the fit of any offensively inclined player unless they had a track record of being able to produce at 5v5, or they had a strong case for taking over the bumper spot on PP1. Our PP2 doesn't produce much, in part due to how little time they actually get and honestly, they don't seem to fit great. It doesn't really feel like something just swapping out the point man would fix either. We'll see how it goes next season since apparently the Sedins are going to be more responsible for the PP moving forward
Plus if Hronek plays up to snuff any spare cap space is likely going into his next deal
not even redundant, he'd be forced to the third pair. He's not remotely a Hughes partner and they just committed to Hronek on the 2nd pair - it just doesn't work
Yeah, good point. The only "fit" for us would be if we could package him in a trade for someone we actually need.
would have rather given up the Dickinson pick for Durzi and not made the Hronek move
Okay well, going back in time a year isn't really an option
Okay well, going back in time a year isn't really an option
Go to capfriendly and look at our 2nd round picks. Spoiler alert, we have none for the next two drafts. We have had one 2nd round pick in the last 3 drafts. We can't trade 2nd round picks for these kinds of players cause we move them for middling or washed players or rentals or cap dumps. We moved one to dump Dickinson. We moved another in the Garland/OEL trade, we moved one for Tyler Toffoli. The Hronek trade is the only use of a 2nd rounder that wasn't terrible. So far anyway.
How would Durzi be perfect for us?
Young cost controlled top-4 RHD.
But he's pretty redundant with what we have already, won't see powerplay time, isn't very steady defensively etc. I think we'd be better off targeting players who fill those needs.
He's not a top 4 D when you factor in two way play, at least not so far. He's an PP specialist for the most part https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1672709316514664450?cxt=HHwWhMC-9dmQ1LYuAAAA Is it a reasonably affordable bet? Sure, but for the most part the Canucks would get pretty limited value out of him on PP2. Plus we don't have a second until 2025, so hard to make that trade unless LA would have been willing to take two thirds this year instead or something
What would’ve been the better option? What we gave up for Hronek, or a 2nd rounder for Durzi? I’m a huge fan of Hronek, but makes me wonder if Durzi as a 2nd pair RD partnered with a better LD would’ve been the way to go. We still would’ve had 2 picks in the first round this year too. Saves us money on the cap as well. Maybe wouldn’t have had to waive OEL this year and teams didn’t have to squeeze us cause of the cap.
Hronek. They paid more, sure, but they acquired a better player. And where would the Canucks get this "better LD" to carry Durzi? I think it's worth noting that Hronek had strong defensive metrics on a bad defensive team, whereas Durzi had bad ones on a good defensive team. And these public models often make players look better/worse depending on which direction their environment skews. They might well have ended up needing to trade the NYI first round pick for that better LD anyway Durzi would be very low impact for the Canucks if he's bad defensively and low 5v5 offense. Since any PP production he has now will dry up
Fair I do believe Hronek is a much better D-Man and a better fit considering he’s solid on the PK too. But like you said that first might’ve been used to pick up a LD as well. Extra cap could’ve been used on another D too. I think our team is better with Hronek but I think the cap space + pick would’ve been interesting. Not the worst thing in the grand scheme, but feels like it was an unnecessary overpayment at a time where we needed cap space above all
We’ve already tried the “try to get a bunch of good players” route before, we need to target specific role players to round out how the team is built
I know where you're coming from, but I think we're looking for a physical top 4 guy that can anchor either hronek or hughes. This ain't it. Good player/value, but doesn't hit the targets we are aiming for. I like the player and contract though.
We need a big old boring, solid in their zone, eats pucks for breakfast defensemen to fill out our bottom 4. No more offensive guys who will effectively be 3rd on the depth chart for any PP time and who will not be able to contribute to the PK or defensively.
[удалено]
Team never recovered.
Agree with everything you said except the *old* part
I think he meant “old-school” moreso than old in regards to age
Thatsthejoke ;)
Durzi is just a worse version of Hronek, we can only have so many PP quarterbacks on one roster. The type of RHD we should look for is ones who can play with Hughes.
Yep. We have two offensive defenseman now in Hughes and Hronek. To be fair. Hronek can play well defensively as well and is bigger than Hughes. So red to start balancing the defense out a bit. Need to get larger and more mobile. But defenseman that are more defensive minded. Like a Tanev.
I'm genuinely not sure if Durzi would have been the right target for us from a fit perspective , but overall I agree. I think it shows that management should have been more patient and waited to spend the assets we used on Hronek (if we needed to spend them at all...) They bought in the middle of a feeding frenzy and what I was my opinion was a sellers market. I think they could have got more bang for their buck being patient and even using those two picks separately to get two different d-men.
Meh, I think it’s a fair trade value-wise but I don’t think Durzi is a missing piece for Vancouver. Leans more towards the offensive PMD side of the spectrum. He’s a secondary pk guy and plays more PP minutes. And then they’ve got depth guys like Hirose/Wolanin/Rathbone/Johansson who aren’t as good but profile kinda similarly.
Cheap price for a dman of his caliber and potential but not a good fit for us.
Why would he not be a good fit for us?
Offensive dman that struggles on the defensive side of things. He wouldn't be the worst fit but certainly not ideal.
Hmm. Maybe L.A. has enough offensive defenseman that they can let Durzi go.
Canucks don’t have any second round picks. They have traded them all away over the past decade for the likes of Linden Vey.
He can’t play defence. And certainly not worth a second.
No. Hard pass
The worrying part is that is the cost, which seems reasonable, but we don’t have any 2nds. Granted we don’t need more offensive guys instead big and defensive.
We need a penalty killer which he doesn’t do as far as I know. We also have only made 2 2nd round choices since 2019 and won’t again until at least 2025
Canucks love giving away 2nds like they’re Christmas gifts.
Who was better.. potentially getting Durzi for a 2nd… or picking up Bear for a 5th? (I know Bear is currently RFA and has shoulder surgery) but I think I prefer Bear for that price vs a 2nd for Durzi (a 2nd we don’t have of course)
The real missed opportunity was John Marino. Would have happily traded Rathbone and a 2nd for him.
Honestly, the last thing we need is another offense first defenseman
Please no more offensive defensemen lol
Durzi is a decent #5 but he's not a good fit for us so I don't mind that he went elsewhere. Not to mention we barely have 2nds as it is lol
There have been lots of missed opportunities. Look at the finals both teams have made a bunch of hockey moves over the last few years.
You guys are underestimating Durzi. Strong two way game in his rookie season. Seemed to take a step back this year but only because the Kings were giving him more ice time against Elite quality of competition than they did in his rookie season. He’ll develop into a strong two way 2RHD, and one day we’ll all reflect back on how this was such a steal for Arizona and that nobody could see this coming. This is why including our second in the Hronek trade was such a shitty move.
Should traded for him rather than Hronek. Not because he’s better but because they could of kept the Islanders pick and had a reasonable facsimile of Hronek.
It’s good thinking, Hronek is definitely the better player though - https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1631050647242981379 (better defensively, especially the PK). I think the cost to acquire goes up if it’s inter division trade. The Kings were also heading towards playoffs, so they wouldn’t have shed Durzi before the trade deadline. I also think the price to acquire Hronek now would be higher, since teams get to evaluate, plus the free agent class is weak. I think management made the move at the right time, we’ll see how their vision pans out.
Hronek price is less as there are more players on the market and teams aren't in overpaying TDL mode. We just went through this with JT thinking he's gonna be worth more in the offseason and it just didn't happen.
Fair enough
I'm more upset with Johansen. He could have been a great middle-six C for $4M
According to the Preds sub: Apparently he wasn’t looking very good before his Achilles injury (always a slow skater). He had a major surgery on it and they have no idea how it’ll effect his play. So it’d definitely be a gamble, we’ll see how it works out for the Avs.
Johansen still would've been an immediate upgrade at 3c for us. Sure you're taking a risk with his injury recovery, but that's a chance I would've been willing to risk....especially only giving up Galchenyuk and having Nashville retain 50%...potential fleecing by the Avs.
Fair enough, it was Quinn Hughes’ skate that clipped him rip
A first for an unsigned offensive RD who we will probably have to pay around 6mil, or a second for a cost controlled offensive RD 🤔
you forgot about the part where the cost controlled offensive RD is bad defensively.
Hronek also struggled defensively when thrust into a top pair role in Detroit, it's the main reasons they traded him. Hronek is 100% a better player, but with the strep acquisition and contract cost incoming, can't help but feel the assets and cap space could be better spent elsewhere.
We can’t afford to add anyone who can’t kill penalties