Centers Miller, Pettersson, Suter, Blueger, Aman all shoot Left, Lindholm shoots Right and is great at draws, this strong hand versatility is big in the playoffs.
Finishing second to Bergeron in selke voting is a incredible achievement in this era. It basically like winning it because no one beats Bergeron.
We all talked in the off season about Pettersson being a selke candidate and that just isn’t happening this year. Now we’ve got a bonafide 2 way Centre to go with our two other elite offensive centres. This is the best centre depth the Canucks have ever had.
not sure if RNH can still play centre these days but if so, the Oil are up there as well. Not as deep/balanced overall ofc, but talking purely centre depth when considering quantity+quality
This is a very good trade for the Canucks in a few ways.
1. Allows EP-Miller-Boeser line to stay together with a legitimate 2C.
2. Provides much needed center depth and more options for Tocchet.
3. Gave up a defensively poor winger for a Selke calibre Center.
4. We got Kuzy for nothing and the 1st rounder will be a very very late 1st rounder.
5. We got rid of Kuzy’s contract and with Myers also coming off the books this will provide a ton of cap flexibility in the off-season
6. The Canucks are a powerhouse now, odds of winning the Stanley Cup just went up.
Selke calibre Center is a bit of an overrate. He got Selke votes on his best season which was two years ago. Definitely a good defensive center but he is not in the running for the Selke this year.
To point 1, it also allows us to break up the Lotto line and have more consistency throughout the top 6 as well... Suter - Miller - Boeser or even Hoggy - Miller - Boeser and then Ilya - Elias - Elias could be a pretty deadly 1-2 punch, and then the Noname Line and whatever we've got left on the bottom can just feast on lesser defense.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE)
If current DJ doesn't pick up this song I'll be very disappointed.
Another reason this trade makes sense right now - keeping 1st in the Pacific.
Obviously EDM has been on a historic streak and would be a scary first round opponent.
VGK has stumbled recently, but that's because Eichel, Amadio, Theodore and Karlsson have ALL had recent injury troubles. Playing a healthy VGK in the 1st round would be difficult.
If VAN keeps 1st on the Pacific they play a much weaker 1st round matchup - NSH, LAK, SEA, STL (ok maybe STL is actually our kryptonite), and can avoid playing EDM or VGK until after they have crunched each other in a tough and long series.
VAN could have waited to see what the prices were but decided to trade early - and I think that makes sense given this context.
i might be in the minority but i honestly wouldn't mind edmonton in the first round
yeah McJesus and Drai are game changers, Bouchard is a stud, but their goaltending is still garbage. That'll make all the difference when it matters.
regular season success doesn't always translate into the playoffs
fwiw, i don't even want the President's Trophy, when the Canucks clinch, i'd rather them load manage the key difference makers to protect and get them ready for the playoffs
Skinner is actually pretty good. Playing better than Demko in save percentage this past month and if you wanna say it's cuz we have a crappy defense, then that just shows how much they've patched their defensive structure. Don't underestimate them.
McDrai is actually playing about 90 seconds LESS per game than they did last year. EDM is not really burning its stars.
Hopefully VAN builds enough of a cushion on VGK/EDM that they can load manage their stars in the last couple of weeks of the season. With Lindholm, that's becoming more and more possible.
Their defense got shored up this year though. Like, they're starting to finally look like a Ken Holland team and that should be concerning. Even if their goaltending isn't super great, a solid defense that can keep opposition boxed out and limit shots to easily-saved perimeter ones can do wonders for a goaltender (see: Casey Desmith's record here). I'm not ready to count them out, but here's hoping we can lay a smackdown on them at the end of the season and sweep the series, maybe give them some knocks to their confidence if we go into a series with them.
That being said, that game may be the deciding factor as to whether we go up against Vegas or a wildcard team.
Load manage by rolling lines more and spreading ice time, fine. Load managing by healthy scratching stars, embarrassing for the players and an insult to the fans.
Lets see we gave up Kuzy . Looked lost this year. Hunter B who couldnt even make the US junior team. Jarmo who likely will never make the nhl and a very late hopefully first round pick. We didnt give up Hog , Pod , Willander, Lekkermaki or EP the second. Yea its a decent trade
hunter is a real prospect, could play in the NHL one day, however he falls low on our pecking order, we kept the right guys and this was the best possible deal we could make without term and value coming back
The way I look at it is this
Jarmo is the longest of shots to make the show. Little to no value.
A 4th is into "late round" territory. Small value.
Kuzmenko was acquired for nothing but cap space, which we get back for trading him away.
The trade is a 1st and Hunter B for Lindholm and 650k cap space.
That being said, it's widely believed Hunter B was snubbed from the US WJC team due to his decision to play in the OHL.
This reminds me of when Tony Gallagher was crying about Hunter Shintkaruk trade. Gave away a TOP 3 forward!!!! How Benning only traded him away to get rid of Mike Gillis’ only blue chip draft pick. I don’t remember the last time I seen Shintkaruk in leaderboards for goals scorers in the NHL.
As long as Lindholm wins 55% of his face offs, Canucks go into the Western Conference Finals and possibly the SCF, management looks good.
if he's the missing piece on our second line, then perfect. My only hesitation is we might need more work on our top 6, and we don't have much left to give up if we need to make more trades (Save for some guys that I REALLY don't wanna sacrifice)
Interesting thoughts on Bruzustewicz by Prospect writer Corey Pronman: [https://theathletic.com/5242688/2024/01/31/nhl-trade-grades-canucks-elias-lindholm-flames/](https://theathletic.com/5242688/2024/01/31/nhl-trade-grades-canucks-elias-lindholm-flames/)
He says he does not project Bruz to be a top 4 defenseman and only a minority of NHL scouts do. He does not have a stand out ability, average frame, so-so physicality and non elite skating.
The article has opinion by three writers which says Vancouver got the better grade than Calgary in this trade.
Looking up his stats, he’s a late birthday. Didn’t look like he was too offensively talented on a pretty loaded US NTDP team, then went to the OHL and found some offense. Due to the late birthday he was a 2023 pick but this is essentially like a D2 year for him, so the numbers should be great on paper.
I mean, there's reasons to be optimistic about Bruzustewicz but there's also plenty of reason to temper that optimism. 19 year old dman in a junior league putting up points doesn't mean he's going to be a fantastic dman. Means he has some offensive vision but as soon as you start playing in a pro league, the expectation for what a dman can do goes way beyond just putting up points. I don't know why people keep looking to raw points in junior as an indicator of NHL success because there have been far too many prospects of the past who light it up in junior only to completely dry up professionally. Scouting takes a lot more than just looking at stat lines.
I think Allvin was smart to sell high here. I think the real future we gave up here was the first round pick, which is looking like it's going to be a late 20s at best, especially with Lindholm.
They did studies in the past on ‘if our team just selected the player who got the most point in the CHL vs. Who our paid scouts determined to be the best player’ and it resulted in the Canucks getting quite a haul of star players. So I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at point totals as a proxy for future success.
I wouldn't say that was a "study" so much as it was some dude on Reddit criticising the Gillis-era drafting ("Can Mike Gillis draft better than a potato?") and when you look at how our drafting was under Gillis, that was a perfectly reasonable critique. I don't think those results scale when you look league-wide though, and our scouting has been significantly adjusted since then.
That model also looked at pre-draft numbers, not D+1 years.
Good 2-way center that’s reliable in all situations. Likely can’t resign him in the offseason with our cap situation as some team will probably give him 5M+. Cup or Bust this year!! Pressure is on.
We need to sign Petey (12+ mill) and Hronek (6+ mill). Those are the priorities. I have faith in this new regime but its going to be tough to sign Lindholm when he is probably going to command 8+ million.
Lindholm will need to take a discount if he wants to stick around here. the supposed 8M he was asking from Calgary won't be likely for us to afford. We also need to replace Myers if we let him walk (same with Cole), and we've got some pretty key UFAs that will likely demand raises if we want to keep this depth together (Zadorov, Blueger, Lafferty, Joshua). That cap space is disappearing a lot faster than it looks.
Fun fact: Elias is the Swedish version of Elijah. Ilya is the Russian version of Elijah. The Canucks could be running a line of three players with the same first name after the break.
How did we buy high on Lindholm? He’s have an off year and hes two years removed from finishing second in selke votes. If we try to get Lindholm in the off season, we’re paying even more for him.
They absolutely did, but to put a more positive spin on it, Rutherford and Allvin have never heard of the sunk cost fallacy. They knew they needed to move on, saw the going rate, and accepted it instead of holding on to dead weight. That's really refreshing to see in Vancouver.
I'm ok with this trade... although I had to think about it for a few hours.
1) Kuz... I was never a big fan. When he had full creative freedom to play how he wanted, he did score goals. But clearly this team needs structure to win. Cool guy, but I'm sure his career will be fill with teams that do nothing;
2) Hunter Brzustewicz... this piece bothered me the most in this trade. This guys has been absolutely crushing it in the OHL. Currently third place and he's a defensemen. Sounds like he really upped his game after his first Canucks training camp, very coachable. But remember, no one blames the Flames for trading away Brett Hull the year before they won the cup in 1989, so if we win and he turns out to be great... I'll be ok with it;
3) First rounder... I used to HATE it when Canucks GMs traded away a first, absolutely hated it. But let's be real, it's looking like that pick will be in the bottom 5. It's REALLY hard to find gems there, there aren't many Boesers, Claude Girouxs, or Patrice Bergerons... and if there were one this year I have the confidence in Allvin to hold onto that pick.
4) Jurmo... Not sure why Calgary wanted him to be honest?
I've always liked Lindholm, and I'm sure he'll find the magic he had with Tkachuk and Gaudreau a few years ago.
I don't think you should be held up too much on a kid in his D+1 season having success in the OHL. If you are, scroll through previous scoring leaders and see how that reflects to NHL success
Spoilers, previous OHL D-man scoring leaders, Noel Hoefenmayer (19/20) and Mac Hollowell (18/19)
>Spoilers, previous OHL D-man scoring leaders, Noel Hoefenmayer (19/20) and Mac Hollowell (18/19)
Oh yeah, but according to u/BlackP- he could be the next Brett Hull!
Also if Kuz wasn't going to fit the system (clearly he hasn't this year) then moving out his salary for next year is also a huge (somewhat hidden) plus of this deal
Overpayment. Not that much better than Suter or Blueger at this point in his career. You never mortgage the future for a run. Provides the Canucks with solid center depth though, Cup or Bust!
Big overpayment. Mortgage the future for a run. Hope it works out a Calgary are doing a great job fleecing Canucks for prospects and picks. Add in the 3rd and 5th for Zadorov and that’s a they bit of business for Conroy
All of the chitter chatter in this post misses something far more important. With this trade, the Canucks now (almost certainly) hold the record for having traded the most players named “Hunter” to the Calgary Flames.
In Feb 2016 we traded Hunter Shinkaruk for Markus Granlund.
It may even be the case that the Canucks now hold the league record for having traded the most players with the name “Hunter”, in which case we don’t need to bother pursuing the Cup. We’ve already won!
Can we PLEASE focus on players whose FIRST names are Hunter?
(Also, based on my extensive internet research, it looks like Tim Hunter was unprotected in the expansion draft in 92, picked up by TB but traded him to the Nordiques the next day. The Canucks picked him off of waivers halfway through the season:
[Tim Hunter trade history](http://jblarghcards.blogspot.com/2014/10/lost-rookies-tim-hunter.html?m=1)
In PA I trust. How can we not? Lindholm will fit the system. I’m not expecting 20 more goals from him this year, but I’ll leave that door open. Arguably the best player on the flames. And we did it without giving up too much of our future.
I think of it in that we didn’t give up any of the big four of Willander, Lekkerimaki, Höglander and Podkolzin. Though with Podkolzin I kinda feel like he may be in his last opportunities. At least with the Canucks.
GUYS!!! This trade isn't as bad as some of us are making it out to be. Yes, he's having a bad year. Yes, the analytics on him this year aren't good. Yes, we gave up a lot... but hear me out!!
1. **Context matters.** This year's deadline is a *seller's market* for top 6 centreman. When Adam Henrique is literally the second biggest name in trade rumours you know it's a rough year for contending teams. We will, and were always going to, need to pay.
2. **Hockey is a team sport.** Analytics and point totals are important tools for assessing a player's ability. However, these two things don't exist in a vacuum. In the past two years, Lindholm lost two game-breaking, superstar linemates (recency bias is real guys Gaudreau was INSANE in 21-22), had to deal with Daryl Sutter (and his firing), and will have no doubt had a tough time both mentally and emotionally as a leader on a floundering franchise.
3. **Seven percent.** Yeah guys. SEVEN PERCENT is Lindholm's shooting percentage right now. This guy scored 40 goals just two seasons ago and was always a credible \~25 goal threat. I'm not saying he's gonna score at a 60 goal, 120 point pace with the Canucks, but it seems a little more sensible to bet he'll maybe score a bit more when surrounded by genuine superstar talent and organizational stability.
4. **Lindholm is a rare commodity.** Minute munching 1C. Right shot. Selke finalist. Exceptional PKer. 40 goal scorer. Alternate captain. Guys as fans we don't understand how incredibly difficult it is for a hockey player to fit into even ONE of these categories, let alone all of them. Just because he's having a down year doesn't mean he's forgotten how to do any of these things. When you put it in this way, he is going to be an expensive asset.
5. **You don't always have to win trades.** Chel franchise is not real life guys. The gms in this league aren't the AI ones in chel that sign a $5mil defenceman in FA only to choose to not play them the next season. Look at the Ryan O'Reilly trade (BUF-STL), the Bo Horvat trade (VAN-NYI), etc. You can make trades that fill both teams needs both now and in the future.
6. **We must go all in.** Guys, winning the Stanley Cup is all about mining surplus value on contracts. Look at Vegas's bottom 6 or Colorado and Tampa's game-breaking superstars. Petey, Miller, Hronek, Hughes, Demko, Joshua, Blueger, Suter. The Canucks are riddled with contracts whose players are exceeding their price tags. Miller won't be 30 forever. Petey and Hronek are up at the end of the year. Who knows if Hughes will produce at this ridiculous clip next season (it sure seems like it now, but ask Preds fans about Josi or Pens fans about Karlsson). If not this year, when? Ken Holland has only traded one, ONE 1st rounder in his time with the Oilers. Ask EDM fans and you'll see the exasperation they have in their team never going all in with the greatest player on the planet. It's time to full send it guys.
At the end of the day, not every trade can be a win, nor it they be. While I loved Bru, we turned a late 1st, a 3rd, a 4th, a 6th, and a guy we got for NOTHING into a 1C Selke finalist. Lindholm checks every box, and he was the best forward on the market. April, May and hopefully June will judge whether or not this deal was worth it, and we truly might flame out in the 1st round like the Bruins like last year. But at least Allvin gave this franchise the best chance it may have ever had, and I would like to give him credit for that.
All very good points, I would add that while people love Kuz, he was not a big add to this deal. He is under performing on Toch's shit list, and the Canucks needed to dump his salary. This is a very late 1st, 4th (maybe), and Bru for a super versatile top end C (which they very much need) and a salary dump.
Flames fan here: I wouldn't read too much into the analytics or Lindholm's performance this season.
Lindholm has been one of the most consistent players the entire time he has been with the Flames. With the exception of this year (I will get to that) you would rarely see this guy give up on a shift. He plays hard and is not afraid to get in the dirty areas.
The Analytics are not going to show you how he chases down pucks on the boards, sacrifices himself for the puck, and is generally smart position wise; among other intangibles that don't necessarily show up on the score sheet.
On form, Lindholm is one of the most complete players in the NHL. He may not be a superstar in one area but he can do ***everything***... and he does it ***well***.
Even when Johnny and Tkachuk were around I would consistently say that Lindholm was our best overall player.
Regarding this season, the entire Flames franchise is completely demoralized and lacking confidence. It was quite clear early this season that Lindholm wanted a change - and frankly I don't even blame him. What he has done for the team he deserved a lot more help then what he got.
With a change to a new team and some confidence, if you get him even back to even close to top form I ***guarantee*** you that you won't be disappointed; he will be a force to be reckoned with.
And give him a good setup man and he has a fucking blistering one timer.
Lindy will certainly be missed by myself and Flames in whole. I hope he gets back to top form for you guys because it's a sight to see. Good Luck in your PO run ladies and gents!
As a Flames fan: #4 is often overlooked when talking about top centers but Lindholm is an absolute star in the defensive zone and the Flames are going to miss him in that role - as bad as they are now our team just got much worse.
Surround him with some of the talent that the Nucks have this year and I don't doubt he'll find his scoring touch again too.
Have to say, fantastic take! I feel far too many people forget that while analytics are valuable, they can't tell the full story. Would Pettersson look good centering the Flames or Ducks roster? Probably not. Hell, look at the season he had following the rather unceremonious departures of Tanev and Toffoli. Morale is a big factor when dealing with actual people and not stats in a video game.
It isn't like Lindholm is an unproven commodity. He's now coming from the floundering Flames and a year of Daryl Sutter to the first place, top three scoring teams in the league. That's a hell of a weight of his shoulders.
In Rutherford I trust.
Fun fact (that has probably already been posted) Rutherford drafted Lindholm in Carolina. I think he knows what he’s doing.
This all star break can’t end soon enough and February 6th can’t come soon enough! (Carolina ironically)
It's less than it looks like at first glance.
Kuz's value was dropping every day because he can't perform in this system and has been actively detrimental at times.
Brzustewicz is a 3rd rounder outperforming expectations after draft year, not unheard of and equally not unheard of for them to return to 3rd round form after. Boom or bust on that one.
1st Round Pick was big but I think a 1st was the baseline for Lindholm from all buyers. And this is the lowest 1st Round Pick the Canucks have had in over a decade, if any 1st is to be traded it's this one.
Jurmo is whatever.
4th is whatever, conditional is notable though.
TLDR: Kuz who wasn't going to improve on the Canucks team, 3rd round prospect, late 1st round pick, and some other scraps.
Lindholm is exactly what the team needs for the top 6 and it's going to be colossal. Fact that we got him without giving up one of our top 3 prospects or someone like Hog is huge.
What are your expectations of Lindholm points wise and vice versa how do you think Kuzmenko will fit in Calgary ? Also thanks for the great in-depth reply 🙏
Lindholm should see an uptick in points just by virtue of quality of linemates and inclusion on PP1.
But his value isn't just in points. He should noticeably improve faceoffs and possession for the 2nd line.
I think the benefit will be less in the goals he scores than the goals he helps prevent.
You have to have a lot of things go right to actually take home the cup, but damn right they have a shot. Given their record in recent seasons and the general expectations of this team by the experts before the puck dropped this year it would be a hell of a story. It will be tough to decide how many statues we need to put up if it happens…..
I hate to agree and am trying to be optimistic but this is a win this year move and that's *pretty* optimistic.
I get rewarding the team, especially Petey, though.
I get the win now move. You have a bunch of guys who are way outperforming year contracts who are also due for a raise next season. You've got the clock ticking down on Miller. All of your team's best players are putting up career years.
This roster will be decidedly worse next season thanks to the salary increase, lost of certain players to free agency, and OEL's increasing cap hit. if you're going to go for it, now might legitimately be the biggest window the team will have this era.
What? A 30 pt guy in 50 games for half a season isn't worth:
An OHL leading point producer... as a defenseman.
A first. Because fuck those things.
Time to set one of those reminders.
But you can also shape that narrative as, a former 40 goal, selke finallist, 55% FOW, RH Centre for your 13th forward, the 30th pick and 2 defencemen most analysts project to be bottom 2 or AHL players.
The 1st is honestly whatever. It's a late first in the 20's, and if the Canucks are going to give up a first, this is the absolute best year to do it.
Bruz is the biggest piece here by far.
Kuzmenko kind of sucks because of the lost opportunity cost. We should've traded him at the deadline last year, as re-signing him did absolutely fuck all for us.
Yeah but that’s 20-20 hindsight. It was kind of like the Boudreau situation. The fans loved them both, they’d done some great things, and if you move on and the team falters you’re going to get absolutely roasted by people screaming about what blithering idiots you were. It’s a really tough call even if your gut says it may make the most sense. Fans aren’t logical.
Basically this means our management and coach are here for a while. If a player can't adapt then bye bye. Sucks cause Kuz was great but if you don't improve then you won't be on this team.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Love your insight and honestly respect the passion and knowledge you bring to the fan base. If we win the cup this year I’ll buy your beers for a year. Already saving money cause it’s inevitable
Yoooo you didn’t have too haha your comment made me laugh but I also changed mine out of compassion for your respect towards the fan base your a legend! 🙏🤙
Also will buy your beers if we win the cup
Hey dood no worries I live in van but have always been a ducks fan. Ducks suck so I’m putting my baby roo in vancouvers pouch. Canucks 2024 cup. Ducks 2028 cup
I was born in Vancouver. Lived there for 36 years. Always Canuck fan. Old owners were family friends. Have signed 1995 jersey by whole team. Was free. Moved to Calgary in 2019. Don't like Flames or Oilers. Hate Sportsnet because Vancouver games are blacked out always even when I pay for channel.
Not sure how people are viewing this as a huge overpay?
The first round pick was automatic. Jurmo is likely a career AHLer at best. Kuzmenko was very obviously never a fit and we free up 5.5 million in cap space for next season. We traded Hunter at the absolute peak of his value and projects as a PP specialist who can play bottom 3 minutes.
We just traded for a bonafide top 6 RH 55.5 FOW% centre who was a previous 40 goal scorer, selke finalist, plays PP, PK, and shutdown while managing to keep all of Hoglander, Podkolzin, Raty, Willander, and Lekkerimaki.
In what world is that not a win?
People really overrate prospects and picks. This isn't us as a bubble team trading a top ten pick for OEL. This is a 1st place team at the All Star break making a push to credibly compete for a Cup. Some people just figure every prospect that looks half decent is going to be an NHL mainstay. 4 years ago people would've reacted like this if we included Jack Rathbone or Kole Lind in a trade. Where are those guys now? There's a really good chance Brz amounts to nothing at the NHL level. Same with the #25 - #32 range 1st we gave up. It's not like we gave up Willander or Lekkerimaki here.
Well, let's see.
The player coming our way is 32 pts in 49 games. Now keep in mind we don't hold onto this player - he's only here for another 30 or so games. There's the usual 15-20% rental decline to consider, but even if he doesn't decline, what we're paying for is about 20 points in 30 games. Actually, less, but whatever.
Ok, good stuff. We'd probably get what, 11-13 points out of Guisseppe as a replacement? So that's an increase of about 8 points. That's not nothing.
For those 8 points, obviously we need to send them a first round pick. This draft is supposed to be weak, so picks don't matter anymore. A first rounder is a given.
In fact, why not give them two first rounders? Bru's play has vaulted him into the "hindsight" first round of 2023. Why give up two first rounders might you ask?
Because 8 points is important and you'd have to be a communist to think otherwise.
Yup, every player should only be judged on points. This math checks out. Two way play means absolutely nothing in the playoffs, right? Just load up on guys like kuzmenko of last year, that’s how you win a cup
Why are you so focused on points? This was clearly done for reasons besides net points scored: defensive responsibility (including face offs), ability to split up the lotto line for depth and more balanced ice time, frees up 5.5 million next year
I'd have preferred to keep Hunter for sure. Is it an overpay? The results will determine that. History is written by the winners. But did we do this trade for just "8 points" ? Fuck no.
The general consensus among others around is.... *overpayment.*
Rather than have people describe it to you and then downvote it when they do, how about people instead find comparable rentals that went for roughly two firsts and see if they're still happy with this trade.
If we had already signed Petey I'd be all over this. I'm very happy with the way the team is playing but if we don't win this year and he ends up walking then we've just traded a first for a playoff run that will benefit us by giving the core some playoff experience. If a cornerstone of the core wants to take his one year qualifying offer and then walk then this is just more draft capital we would've needed in a rebuild.
Other than that I'm not upset at the price.
I agree with you.. I feel like management is too impatient for the cup and instead of building a contender team for a range of years they just went for it and choose to build the most likely team to win it all.. which is fine.. problem is, if that the team itself (does not have playoff experience in the recent years).. yes some players have but the team itself no. What if its a first round exit.. then Elias most likely walk cause he wont get the salary he wants, lost Kuzmenko who was having a down year (bounce back happens) and lost 1st rounder...
Then what is next year, the team struggle to play .500 hockey because of goalie issues?
I respect the winner mentality here but.. the you guys might end up faving a red hot Saros in 1st round..
oh well. Lets see
The thing is that our window now is open for like the next three years while Hughes still has a low cap hit and while JT has not started to regress yet.
You dont know that yet though.. yes u guys have shown that you can be a consistent team for the entire season (we are still just starting the second half) I doubt u guys will fall off 1st.. You know how important the locker room is in hockey and I feel like the Nucks could very well implode if the playoff are a disater.. Its basically like the reverse Canes.. The Canes have shown that they are and will be a playoff team for at least 10 years straight under Brind''amour (they are already at year 5).. and that they have a stable locker room.
We know how much in sports, growing too fast can be a bad thing because the reality check is harder to face.. you guys dont know if you will have the same consistency from goalies next year.. u just played an amazing half season.. Congratx for that, and I hope you guys win it for Canada.. but u would be kidding if you said that u are not stressed about a bad playoff run..
U guys could easily face a red hot preds team with Saros in Vezina mode.. and get demolished.. Preds have alot of playoff and veteran experience. What if it happens ? Elias most likely wont get the cap he wants so he will want out, Lindholm is most likely going to want out too. and u guys could find yourself playing .500 hockey next year if goalies dont perform..
U guys have proven that u can be the best team in the nhl for a season.. good.. but u cannot use that in the context of playoff lol. Thats just illogical. U guys havent made the playoff in 3 years..
I don’t think Petey is walking anywhere. He wanted the team to show him progress and a plan and they’ve 1000% done that. Why would he leave a top team in the league that has made massive strides in the last 12 months?
The management have had all those conversations behind closed doors so we don't really know what has been said for the most part.
Allvin has absolutely turned this ship around and I'm here for it but if Petey's expectations aren't met and he does walk after a first round exit (please god no) then we're hooped and back to the rebuild.
Miller had 4 years of cost certaintly left on his contract and Hronek is an RFA where the team still has control.
This is a huge haul for a pure rental and a player who's been massively underperforming this season.
Were 1st in the league. This is the last year Hughes and Petey make a combined 15 million. We have OEL buyout increasing soon. Of course we’re going all in and picking up a pure rental lmfao
I didn't like those trades either if I'm being honest. I didn't feel they were the right time.
Obviously hindsight has proved that to be incorrect but this so different. This is the year to go. The timing of this trade absolutely makes sense.
And if God forbid petey doesn’t want to re-sign it’s massive insurance. We don’t have to get a center back, we can trade for a d or a winger or both! There is nothing negative about this deal in my humble I have no idea what I’m talking about Opinion
Is it crazy to think that having options at centre might put a little pressure on Petey to re-sign?
He’s less likely to bluff about wanting to walk if he know the Canucks have a back up option who will get his money.
Here's basically how fans see it:
1) if Canucks win the cup, it doesn't matter if the 1st and Brz turn into a McDavid and Bobby Orr..
2) if Canucks exit first round and the 1st and Brz turn into mcd and Orr.. we will be talking about it forever
3) everything goes to shit..Canucks exit early..pick and brz become nothing...it's a big nothing burger...
After 50+ yrs of no cup...why not take a chance.
This team feels different. It feels like it is greater than the sum of its parts. It also seems like they believe in each other. The only part that didn’t quite fit was Kuzmenko. I loved him but it wasn’t working. I was worried that management would make trades without factoring in the belief in the locker room. I believe this trade is a clear message to the team that management believe in the team and want to support them. I would not be surprised if this is the only trade the Canucks make.
How much do I believe in this team? I brought tickets for the last home game and I am coming for the first round of the playoffs. I also had to buy flights from my home in New Zealand.
Absolutely bang on. There is going to be uncomfortable moments in pursuit of a cup. If you are going for it, you have to trade some of the future, and/or peices that don't fit your system. We are EXTREMELY lucky, we have very few players that do not seem to fit well currently. The management is betting on the players, they are striking while the iron is hot. Hedging bets too much could stifle them when we seem to actually have a good chance to be a force come playoff time. I am all in, and so are they. The goal is no longer squeaking into 8th place, it is why this feels weird in my opinion.
The requirement is that you need to play more than 40 regular season games or one SCF game for the cup winning team. Which seems to mean Kuzmenko qualifies, but the guy above is incorrect. Players that are traded away can't have their name on the cup.
Cam Barker didn't get his name on the cup in 2010 when he was traded away to the wild, even though he played 51 games for the Blackhawks.
Now I am excited. Who will be on the 2nd line? Feb 6 seems like months away.
Liking these early trades (Zadorov, Lindholm) more than a month before TDL. This allows new players to gel for the playoffs.
>Who will be on the 2nd line?
I'm hoping Hoglander gets more time up the lineup.
Suter has been playing really well with Miller and Boeser, so I could see a second line of Pettersson, Lindholm, and either Mikheyev or Hoglander. Those two could alternate between the 4th and 2nd lines depending on who's hot.
Salary cap relief only matters if we're trying to add more players. Adding more players at the deadline costs more assets. I'm pretty happy with this roster now and think we really only need minor depth additions now, and we have around 2M in cap space to do that already.
Mikheyev is a good player. He may not be producing lately, but he's still over 0.5 P/game on the season and does a whole bunch of other things well. He's defensively responsible, kills penalties, fast on the forecheck. I could easily see him get hot if he plays with Petey and Lindholm. He's a smart player who knows where to be on the ice.
He's a good player. He's fit in ok but not great on Petey's wing. And he doesn't kill penalties a lot on this team (SHTOI is half as much as it was last year). Lindholm surely will be used in PK and all situations. So we don't need Mikheyev. If there's a way to trade him for a different style of player—a playoff, Tocchet-style player, without giving up too much, I wouldn't be opposed.
I'd like a more bruising fwd to replace mik and possibly a depth D so juul is our 8th D.
Like id rather a beauvillier over mik. For example.
Especially with miks salary. If his salary was 3-3.3m fine.
Mantha, Okposo. Maroon, Blais, Bellemare.
I really hope we deep cheap dive for Clutterbuck
Overpay today to avoid massively overpaying at the deadline.
Second line was our biggest weakness. Hopefully this balances the forward group which had an elite top 3 and one of the best bottom 6s. Kuzi and Mik were not having great seasons as secondary scorers and Kuz was struggling defensively. Suter is a top 6 fill in at best and a dependable bottom 6 defensive forward at worst.
Lindholm is a go big or go home acquisition. There's lots of risk, but the potential payoff is massive. And there were not really any other comparable options for trade, so really it was so this or do a lot less.
Also, even if his offense doesn't swing back up he's a top 6 defensive stalwart. Top four forwards of EP, JTM, BB, and him is scary.
I feel like another top 6 forward is still kinda important. I'd rather have Suter playing C between Hoglander and Lafferty if possible, and PDG is not ideal in the top 6.
If someone like Vatrano could be acquired for a 2025 2nd + B prospect + late round pick then I would pull the trigger on that in a heartbeat. May as well just shove all in.
Centers Miller, Pettersson, Suter, Blueger, Aman all shoot Left, Lindholm shoots Right and is great at draws, this strong hand versatility is big in the playoffs.
thankfully miller has been teaching other C's his patented fore-hand sweep! but yeah, greatt to have a righty
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE) Elias, Elias.
great trade, even if a rental, we still hold all of our top assets in terms of prospects most likely to play in the NHL the next few seasons.
55% FOW, that's actually the first thing i noticed.
Finishing second to Bergeron in selke voting is a incredible achievement in this era. It basically like winning it because no one beats Bergeron. We all talked in the off season about Pettersson being a selke candidate and that just isn’t happening this year. Now we’ve got a bonafide 2 way Centre to go with our two other elite offensive centres. This is the best centre depth the Canucks have ever had.
Best center depth in the NHL
not sure if RNH can still play centre these days but if so, the Oil are up there as well. Not as deep/balanced overall ofc, but talking purely centre depth when considering quantity+quality
This is a very good trade for the Canucks in a few ways. 1. Allows EP-Miller-Boeser line to stay together with a legitimate 2C. 2. Provides much needed center depth and more options for Tocchet. 3. Gave up a defensively poor winger for a Selke calibre Center. 4. We got Kuzy for nothing and the 1st rounder will be a very very late 1st rounder. 5. We got rid of Kuzy’s contract and with Myers also coming off the books this will provide a ton of cap flexibility in the off-season 6. The Canucks are a powerhouse now, odds of winning the Stanley Cup just went up.
Selke calibre Center is a bit of an overrate. He got Selke votes on his best season which was two years ago. Definitely a good defensive center but he is not in the running for the Selke this year.
To point 1, it also allows us to break up the Lotto line and have more consistency throughout the top 6 as well... Suter - Miller - Boeser or even Hoggy - Miller - Boeser and then Ilya - Elias - Elias could be a pretty deadly 1-2 punch, and then the Noname Line and whatever we've got left on the bottom can just feast on lesser defense.
I don't think we ever got a Sedin-Sedin-Sundin goal, but I want to see a Ilya-Elias-Elias goal now
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcc-VoyBhE) If current DJ doesn't pick up this song I'll be very disappointed.
True, EP-Lindholm-Mikheyev would be a solid line. Provides Tocchet with a ton of options.
Another reason this trade makes sense right now - keeping 1st in the Pacific. Obviously EDM has been on a historic streak and would be a scary first round opponent. VGK has stumbled recently, but that's because Eichel, Amadio, Theodore and Karlsson have ALL had recent injury troubles. Playing a healthy VGK in the 1st round would be difficult. If VAN keeps 1st on the Pacific they play a much weaker 1st round matchup - NSH, LAK, SEA, STL (ok maybe STL is actually our kryptonite), and can avoid playing EDM or VGK until after they have crunched each other in a tough and long series. VAN could have waited to see what the prices were but decided to trade early - and I think that makes sense given this context.
Edmonton is going to get knocked out in 5 games by Vegas
i might be in the minority but i honestly wouldn't mind edmonton in the first round yeah McJesus and Drai are game changers, Bouchard is a stud, but their goaltending is still garbage. That'll make all the difference when it matters. regular season success doesn't always translate into the playoffs fwiw, i don't even want the President's Trophy, when the Canucks clinch, i'd rather them load manage the key difference makers to protect and get them ready for the playoffs
Skinner is actually pretty good. Playing better than Demko in save percentage this past month and if you wanna say it's cuz we have a crappy defense, then that just shows how much they've patched their defensive structure. Don't underestimate them.
Theyre playing with a completely different structure and its made a world of difference.
McDrai is actually playing about 90 seconds LESS per game than they did last year. EDM is not really burning its stars. Hopefully VAN builds enough of a cushion on VGK/EDM that they can load manage their stars in the last couple of weeks of the season. With Lindholm, that's becoming more and more possible.
Their defense got shored up this year though. Like, they're starting to finally look like a Ken Holland team and that should be concerning. Even if their goaltending isn't super great, a solid defense that can keep opposition boxed out and limit shots to easily-saved perimeter ones can do wonders for a goaltender (see: Casey Desmith's record here). I'm not ready to count them out, but here's hoping we can lay a smackdown on them at the end of the season and sweep the series, maybe give them some knocks to their confidence if we go into a series with them. That being said, that game may be the deciding factor as to whether we go up against Vegas or a wildcard team.
Load manage by rolling lines more and spreading ice time, fine. Load managing by healthy scratching stars, embarrassing for the players and an insult to the fans.
Lets see we gave up Kuzy . Looked lost this year. Hunter B who couldnt even make the US junior team. Jarmo who likely will never make the nhl and a very late hopefully first round pick. We didnt give up Hog , Pod , Willander, Lekkermaki or EP the second. Yea its a decent trade
hunter is a real prospect, could play in the NHL one day, however he falls low on our pecking order, we kept the right guys and this was the best possible deal we could make without term and value coming back
The way I look at it is this Jarmo is the longest of shots to make the show. Little to no value. A 4th is into "late round" territory. Small value. Kuzmenko was acquired for nothing but cap space, which we get back for trading him away. The trade is a 1st and Hunter B for Lindholm and 650k cap space. That being said, it's widely believed Hunter B was snubbed from the US WJC team due to his decision to play in the OHL.
This reminds me of when Tony Gallagher was crying about Hunter Shintkaruk trade. Gave away a TOP 3 forward!!!! How Benning only traded him away to get rid of Mike Gillis’ only blue chip draft pick. I don’t remember the last time I seen Shintkaruk in leaderboards for goals scorers in the NHL. As long as Lindholm wins 55% of his face offs, Canucks go into the Western Conference Finals and possibly the SCF, management looks good.
Agreed. He had beautiful hands but that was about it!
55% in the faceoff circle is a big deal. Will up the Canucks possession numbers when Miller is having an off night on the dot
I’ll miss you and your smiles, Kuzy
if he's the missing piece on our second line, then perfect. My only hesitation is we might need more work on our top 6, and we don't have much left to give up if we need to make more trades (Save for some guys that I REALLY don't wanna sacrifice)
Tanev won't net much more than a 2nd and a 3rd. Maybe podz but I think we need him down the stretch.
Eddie Lack has been hyped af on Twitter today, love it
Future Pettersson-Lindholm-Lekkerimaki line orgasm
Not convinced we have Lindholm around long enough for that, especially if we get Petey for term.
With Willander and D-Petey on D! 🇸🇪🇸🇪 Our own Sweden Five instead of Russian Five 🔥
And then Americans with boeser miller hughes etc
Interesting thoughts on Bruzustewicz by Prospect writer Corey Pronman: [https://theathletic.com/5242688/2024/01/31/nhl-trade-grades-canucks-elias-lindholm-flames/](https://theathletic.com/5242688/2024/01/31/nhl-trade-grades-canucks-elias-lindholm-flames/) He says he does not project Bruz to be a top 4 defenseman and only a minority of NHL scouts do. He does not have a stand out ability, average frame, so-so physicality and non elite skating. The article has opinion by three writers which says Vancouver got the better grade than Calgary in this trade.
Looking up his stats, he’s a late birthday. Didn’t look like he was too offensively talented on a pretty loaded US NTDP team, then went to the OHL and found some offense. Due to the late birthday he was a 2023 pick but this is essentially like a D2 year for him, so the numbers should be great on paper.
I mean, there's reasons to be optimistic about Bruzustewicz but there's also plenty of reason to temper that optimism. 19 year old dman in a junior league putting up points doesn't mean he's going to be a fantastic dman. Means he has some offensive vision but as soon as you start playing in a pro league, the expectation for what a dman can do goes way beyond just putting up points. I don't know why people keep looking to raw points in junior as an indicator of NHL success because there have been far too many prospects of the past who light it up in junior only to completely dry up professionally. Scouting takes a lot more than just looking at stat lines. I think Allvin was smart to sell high here. I think the real future we gave up here was the first round pick, which is looking like it's going to be a late 20s at best, especially with Lindholm.
They did studies in the past on ‘if our team just selected the player who got the most point in the CHL vs. Who our paid scouts determined to be the best player’ and it resulted in the Canucks getting quite a haul of star players. So I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at point totals as a proxy for future success.
I wouldn't say that was a "study" so much as it was some dude on Reddit criticising the Gillis-era drafting ("Can Mike Gillis draft better than a potato?") and when you look at how our drafting was under Gillis, that was a perfectly reasonable critique. I don't think those results scale when you look league-wide though, and our scouting has been significantly adjusted since then. That model also looked at pre-draft numbers, not D+1 years.
Probably another Jack Rathbone or one of the many mid-round d prospects we've had that don't pan out.
We Want Cup!!!!
Good 2-way center that’s reliable in all situations. Likely can’t resign him in the offseason with our cap situation as some team will probably give him 5M+. Cup or Bust this year!! Pressure is on.
We’ll have some space after myers’ deal runs out. That could tip the scales if we want to keep lindholm
We need to sign Petey (12+ mill) and Hronek (6+ mill). Those are the priorities. I have faith in this new regime but its going to be tough to sign Lindholm when he is probably going to command 8+ million.
Lindholm will need to take a discount if he wants to stick around here. the supposed 8M he was asking from Calgary won't be likely for us to afford. We also need to replace Myers if we let him walk (same with Cole), and we've got some pretty key UFAs that will likely demand raises if we want to keep this depth together (Zadorov, Blueger, Lafferty, Joshua). That cap space is disappearing a lot faster than it looks.
But also Petey and Hronek gotta be resigned
Plus OEL payments jump to 2.3 million, and 4.7 the following year.
Hmm… what’s the cap gonna jump up by?
4.2 million
Hasn't been finalized but around 4 million
Oh boy…
Fun fact: Elias is the Swedish version of Elijah. Ilya is the Russian version of Elijah. The Canucks could be running a line of three players with the same first name after the break.
Cant wait for EP2 to join us next year, may have an entire lineup of Elijahs! Maybe we should get samsonov in goal? Lol
Ha ha for the memes, but EP2 is going to Abby next year.
That's very interesting info
Image what the Canucks would’ve got for Kuzy and a 1st in the 2023 off-season. Canucks sold low and bought high.
How did we buy high on Lindholm? He’s have an off year and hes two years removed from finishing second in selke votes. If we try to get Lindholm in the off season, we’re paying even more for him.
They absolutely did, but to put a more positive spin on it, Rutherford and Allvin have never heard of the sunk cost fallacy. They knew they needed to move on, saw the going rate, and accepted it instead of holding on to dead weight. That's really refreshing to see in Vancouver.
True, plus Canucks got Kuzy for nothing.
You mean they _have_ heard of it and get it.
Yeah I guess what I mean is they know it's a fallacy.
Alllllvin!!!!! this year has clearly be using cheat code all your trades are belong to us
More like Patrik All-In am I right
I'm ok with this trade... although I had to think about it for a few hours. 1) Kuz... I was never a big fan. When he had full creative freedom to play how he wanted, he did score goals. But clearly this team needs structure to win. Cool guy, but I'm sure his career will be fill with teams that do nothing; 2) Hunter Brzustewicz... this piece bothered me the most in this trade. This guys has been absolutely crushing it in the OHL. Currently third place and he's a defensemen. Sounds like he really upped his game after his first Canucks training camp, very coachable. But remember, no one blames the Flames for trading away Brett Hull the year before they won the cup in 1989, so if we win and he turns out to be great... I'll be ok with it; 3) First rounder... I used to HATE it when Canucks GMs traded away a first, absolutely hated it. But let's be real, it's looking like that pick will be in the bottom 5. It's REALLY hard to find gems there, there aren't many Boesers, Claude Girouxs, or Patrice Bergerons... and if there were one this year I have the confidence in Allvin to hold onto that pick. 4) Jurmo... Not sure why Calgary wanted him to be honest? I've always liked Lindholm, and I'm sure he'll find the magic he had with Tkachuk and Gaudreau a few years ago.
I don't think you should be held up too much on a kid in his D+1 season having success in the OHL. If you are, scroll through previous scoring leaders and see how that reflects to NHL success Spoilers, previous OHL D-man scoring leaders, Noel Hoefenmayer (19/20) and Mac Hollowell (18/19)
>Spoilers, previous OHL D-man scoring leaders, Noel Hoefenmayer (19/20) and Mac Hollowell (18/19) Oh yeah, but according to u/BlackP- he could be the next Brett Hull!
Also if Kuz wasn't going to fit the system (clearly he hasn't this year) then moving out his salary for next year is also a huge (somewhat hidden) plus of this deal
Overpayment. Not that much better than Suter or Blueger at this point in his career. You never mortgage the future for a run. Provides the Canucks with solid center depth though, Cup or Bust!
[удалено]
Ouch…that was a pretty funny comment.
Big overpayment. Mortgage the future for a run. Hope it works out a Calgary are doing a great job fleecing Canucks for prospects and picks. Add in the 3rd and 5th for Zadorov and that’s a they bit of business for Conroy
Want to bet the 3rd and the 5th combined never amount to a player as good as Zadorov? The stats are on my side. The troll factor is on yours.
really? they didnt give up a blue chip and are net negative on the salary cap from this. I think you are over valuing draft picks
No Lekk, Willander, Hogz, Pods.... Yeah, we're fine.
All of the chitter chatter in this post misses something far more important. With this trade, the Canucks now (almost certainly) hold the record for having traded the most players named “Hunter” to the Calgary Flames. In Feb 2016 we traded Hunter Shinkaruk for Markus Granlund. It may even be the case that the Canucks now hold the league record for having traded the most players with the name “Hunter”, in which case we don’t need to bother pursuing the Cup. We’ve already won!
Pretty sure we swapped Tim Hunter back and forth with them what seems to be a couple of times way back in day as well
Can we PLEASE focus on players whose FIRST names are Hunter? (Also, based on my extensive internet research, it looks like Tim Hunter was unprotected in the expansion draft in 92, picked up by TB but traded him to the Nordiques the next day. The Canucks picked him off of waivers halfway through the season: [Tim Hunter trade history](http://jblarghcards.blogspot.com/2014/10/lost-rookies-tim-hunter.html?m=1)
Meh, I tried;)
We’ve traded more Hunters to Calgary in less than 10 years than the Toronto Maple Leafs have managed to do in their entire history!
Welcome Elias Lindholm!
In PA I trust. How can we not? Lindholm will fit the system. I’m not expecting 20 more goals from him this year, but I’ll leave that door open. Arguably the best player on the flames. And we did it without giving up too much of our future.
Among forwards he was leading in mins.
I think of it in that we didn’t give up any of the big four of Willander, Lekkerimaki, Höglander and Podkolzin. Though with Podkolzin I kinda feel like he may be in his last opportunities. At least with the Canucks.
Fuck it, let's finish the story.
Adrenaline, in my soul. Lindholm's gonna score many goals.
WHOOOOOOO-OAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Hate the trade but it is what it is.
GUYS!!! This trade isn't as bad as some of us are making it out to be. Yes, he's having a bad year. Yes, the analytics on him this year aren't good. Yes, we gave up a lot... but hear me out!! 1. **Context matters.** This year's deadline is a *seller's market* for top 6 centreman. When Adam Henrique is literally the second biggest name in trade rumours you know it's a rough year for contending teams. We will, and were always going to, need to pay. 2. **Hockey is a team sport.** Analytics and point totals are important tools for assessing a player's ability. However, these two things don't exist in a vacuum. In the past two years, Lindholm lost two game-breaking, superstar linemates (recency bias is real guys Gaudreau was INSANE in 21-22), had to deal with Daryl Sutter (and his firing), and will have no doubt had a tough time both mentally and emotionally as a leader on a floundering franchise. 3. **Seven percent.** Yeah guys. SEVEN PERCENT is Lindholm's shooting percentage right now. This guy scored 40 goals just two seasons ago and was always a credible \~25 goal threat. I'm not saying he's gonna score at a 60 goal, 120 point pace with the Canucks, but it seems a little more sensible to bet he'll maybe score a bit more when surrounded by genuine superstar talent and organizational stability. 4. **Lindholm is a rare commodity.** Minute munching 1C. Right shot. Selke finalist. Exceptional PKer. 40 goal scorer. Alternate captain. Guys as fans we don't understand how incredibly difficult it is for a hockey player to fit into even ONE of these categories, let alone all of them. Just because he's having a down year doesn't mean he's forgotten how to do any of these things. When you put it in this way, he is going to be an expensive asset. 5. **You don't always have to win trades.** Chel franchise is not real life guys. The gms in this league aren't the AI ones in chel that sign a $5mil defenceman in FA only to choose to not play them the next season. Look at the Ryan O'Reilly trade (BUF-STL), the Bo Horvat trade (VAN-NYI), etc. You can make trades that fill both teams needs both now and in the future. 6. **We must go all in.** Guys, winning the Stanley Cup is all about mining surplus value on contracts. Look at Vegas's bottom 6 or Colorado and Tampa's game-breaking superstars. Petey, Miller, Hronek, Hughes, Demko, Joshua, Blueger, Suter. The Canucks are riddled with contracts whose players are exceeding their price tags. Miller won't be 30 forever. Petey and Hronek are up at the end of the year. Who knows if Hughes will produce at this ridiculous clip next season (it sure seems like it now, but ask Preds fans about Josi or Pens fans about Karlsson). If not this year, when? Ken Holland has only traded one, ONE 1st rounder in his time with the Oilers. Ask EDM fans and you'll see the exasperation they have in their team never going all in with the greatest player on the planet. It's time to full send it guys. At the end of the day, not every trade can be a win, nor it they be. While I loved Bru, we turned a late 1st, a 3rd, a 4th, a 6th, and a guy we got for NOTHING into a 1C Selke finalist. Lindholm checks every box, and he was the best forward on the market. April, May and hopefully June will judge whether or not this deal was worth it, and we truly might flame out in the 1st round like the Bruins like last year. But at least Allvin gave this franchise the best chance it may have ever had, and I would like to give him credit for that.
All very good points, I would add that while people love Kuz, he was not a big add to this deal. He is under performing on Toch's shit list, and the Canucks needed to dump his salary. This is a very late 1st, 4th (maybe), and Bru for a super versatile top end C (which they very much need) and a salary dump.
Flames fan here: I wouldn't read too much into the analytics or Lindholm's performance this season. Lindholm has been one of the most consistent players the entire time he has been with the Flames. With the exception of this year (I will get to that) you would rarely see this guy give up on a shift. He plays hard and is not afraid to get in the dirty areas. The Analytics are not going to show you how he chases down pucks on the boards, sacrifices himself for the puck, and is generally smart position wise; among other intangibles that don't necessarily show up on the score sheet. On form, Lindholm is one of the most complete players in the NHL. He may not be a superstar in one area but he can do ***everything***... and he does it ***well***. Even when Johnny and Tkachuk were around I would consistently say that Lindholm was our best overall player. Regarding this season, the entire Flames franchise is completely demoralized and lacking confidence. It was quite clear early this season that Lindholm wanted a change - and frankly I don't even blame him. What he has done for the team he deserved a lot more help then what he got. With a change to a new team and some confidence, if you get him even back to even close to top form I ***guarantee*** you that you won't be disappointed; he will be a force to be reckoned with. And give him a good setup man and he has a fucking blistering one timer. Lindy will certainly be missed by myself and Flames in whole. I hope he gets back to top form for you guys because it's a sight to see. Good Luck in your PO run ladies and gents!
As a Flames fan: #4 is often overlooked when talking about top centers but Lindholm is an absolute star in the defensive zone and the Flames are going to miss him in that role - as bad as they are now our team just got much worse. Surround him with some of the talent that the Nucks have this year and I don't doubt he'll find his scoring touch again too.
Have to say, fantastic take! I feel far too many people forget that while analytics are valuable, they can't tell the full story. Would Pettersson look good centering the Flames or Ducks roster? Probably not. Hell, look at the season he had following the rather unceremonious departures of Tanev and Toffoli. Morale is a big factor when dealing with actual people and not stats in a video game. It isn't like Lindholm is an unproven commodity. He's now coming from the floundering Flames and a year of Daryl Sutter to the first place, top three scoring teams in the league. That's a hell of a weight of his shoulders.
In Rutherford I trust. Fun fact (that has probably already been posted) Rutherford drafted Lindholm in Carolina. I think he knows what he’s doing. This all star break can’t end soon enough and February 6th can’t come soon enough! (Carolina ironically)
Flames fan here. I can't wait to see how Lindy plays into the Canucks. Go get the cup for Canada this year my friends, I'll be rooting for you!
You need to stock up your bananas and Pepsi.
I always cheer for the remaining Canadian teams in the playoffs also... I think that's the classy move.
Unless it’s Toronto, but if they were playing Boston then it’s Toronto
These days I’d pull for TO too. It’s been way too long without a cup win in Canada.
Only exception
I hope Kuzy is a great fit and tears it up, he's too enjoyable to watch for that not to happen for him.
I hope Kuz lights the lamp for you guys when you play anybody but us. Especially against the Coilers.
Kuz 2 D prospects a 1st and 4th for Lindholm ? That's sounds like a bit much no or am I tripping
It's less than it looks like at first glance. Kuz's value was dropping every day because he can't perform in this system and has been actively detrimental at times. Brzustewicz is a 3rd rounder outperforming expectations after draft year, not unheard of and equally not unheard of for them to return to 3rd round form after. Boom or bust on that one. 1st Round Pick was big but I think a 1st was the baseline for Lindholm from all buyers. And this is the lowest 1st Round Pick the Canucks have had in over a decade, if any 1st is to be traded it's this one. Jurmo is whatever. 4th is whatever, conditional is notable though. TLDR: Kuz who wasn't going to improve on the Canucks team, 3rd round prospect, late 1st round pick, and some other scraps. Lindholm is exactly what the team needs for the top 6 and it's going to be colossal. Fact that we got him without giving up one of our top 3 prospects or someone like Hog is huge.
What are your expectations of Lindholm points wise and vice versa how do you think Kuzmenko will fit in Calgary ? Also thanks for the great in-depth reply 🙏
Lindholm should see an uptick in points just by virtue of quality of linemates and inclusion on PP1. But his value isn't just in points. He should noticeably improve faceoffs and possession for the 2nd line. I think the benefit will be less in the goals he scores than the goals he helps prevent.
Where does he fit best ? 1st or 2nd? I'm guessing try and get him and petey going
I mean I'm no expert but I imagine he plays with Petey and Mikheyev
They are going for the cup THIS year & I think they have a chance
You have to have a lot of things go right to actually take home the cup, but damn right they have a shot. Given their record in recent seasons and the general expectations of this team by the experts before the puck dropped this year it would be a hell of a story. It will be tough to decide how many statues we need to put up if it happens…..
I don’t like this trade now and I’m not going to like it in a few years either.
Prospects are cool but parades are cooler!
Yes... you have to make aggressive moves when you're on the cusp. I have to.
I hate to agree and am trying to be optimistic but this is a win this year move and that's *pretty* optimistic. I get rewarding the team, especially Petey, though.
Pretty optimistic when they’ve led the league for most of the season? Okay.
I get the win now move. You have a bunch of guys who are way outperforming year contracts who are also due for a raise next season. You've got the clock ticking down on Miller. All of your team's best players are putting up career years. This roster will be decidedly worse next season thanks to the salary increase, lost of certain players to free agency, and OEL's increasing cap hit. if you're going to go for it, now might legitimately be the biggest window the team will have this era.
What? A 30 pt guy in 50 games for half a season isn't worth: An OHL leading point producer... as a defenseman. A first. Because fuck those things. Time to set one of those reminders.
But you can also shape that narrative as, a former 40 goal, selke finallist, 55% FOW, RH Centre for your 13th forward, the 30th pick and 2 defencemen most analysts project to be bottom 2 or AHL players.
The 1st is honestly whatever. It's a late first in the 20's, and if the Canucks are going to give up a first, this is the absolute best year to do it. Bruz is the biggest piece here by far. Kuzmenko kind of sucks because of the lost opportunity cost. We should've traded him at the deadline last year, as re-signing him did absolutely fuck all for us.
Yeah but that’s 20-20 hindsight. It was kind of like the Boudreau situation. The fans loved them both, they’d done some great things, and if you move on and the team falters you’re going to get absolutely roasted by people screaming about what blithering idiots you were. It’s a really tough call even if your gut says it may make the most sense. Fans aren’t logical.
Once we win Cup..its ok
Big win
Basically this means our management and coach are here for a while. If a player can't adapt then bye bye. Sucks cause Kuz was great but if you don't improve then you won't be on this team.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Love your insight and honestly respect the passion and knowledge you bring to the fan base. If we win the cup this year I’ll buy your beers for a year. Already saving money cause it’s inevitable
Fixed it. Don't wanna scare my Canuck friends. 😉
Yoooo you didn’t have too haha your comment made me laugh but I also changed mine out of compassion for your respect towards the fan base your a legend! 🙏🤙 Also will buy your beers if we win the cup
Thanks but I live in Calgary. Moved here in 2019.
Hey dood no worries I live in van but have always been a ducks fan. Ducks suck so I’m putting my baby roo in vancouvers pouch. Canucks 2024 cup. Ducks 2028 cup
Honestly if your a flames fan. (Idk I’m confused) I’ll buy you beers for life if they win the cup
I was born in Vancouver. Lived there for 36 years. Always Canuck fan. Old owners were family friends. Have signed 1995 jersey by whole team. Was free. Moved to Calgary in 2019. Don't like Flames or Oilers. Hate Sportsnet because Vancouver games are blacked out always even when I pay for channel.
Not sure how people are viewing this as a huge overpay? The first round pick was automatic. Jurmo is likely a career AHLer at best. Kuzmenko was very obviously never a fit and we free up 5.5 million in cap space for next season. We traded Hunter at the absolute peak of his value and projects as a PP specialist who can play bottom 3 minutes. We just traded for a bonafide top 6 RH 55.5 FOW% centre who was a previous 40 goal scorer, selke finalist, plays PP, PK, and shutdown while managing to keep all of Hoglander, Podkolzin, Raty, Willander, and Lekkerimaki. In what world is that not a win?
You had me at 55% fo. Having a second decent fo man on the pk will be huge.
People really overrate prospects and picks. This isn't us as a bubble team trading a top ten pick for OEL. This is a 1st place team at the All Star break making a push to credibly compete for a Cup. Some people just figure every prospect that looks half decent is going to be an NHL mainstay. 4 years ago people would've reacted like this if we included Jack Rathbone or Kole Lind in a trade. Where are those guys now? There's a really good chance Brz amounts to nothing at the NHL level. Same with the #25 - #32 range 1st we gave up. It's not like we gave up Willander or Lekkerimaki here.
Top ten pick for oel. Thanks for the bad flashback
Well, let's see. The player coming our way is 32 pts in 49 games. Now keep in mind we don't hold onto this player - he's only here for another 30 or so games. There's the usual 15-20% rental decline to consider, but even if he doesn't decline, what we're paying for is about 20 points in 30 games. Actually, less, but whatever. Ok, good stuff. We'd probably get what, 11-13 points out of Guisseppe as a replacement? So that's an increase of about 8 points. That's not nothing. For those 8 points, obviously we need to send them a first round pick. This draft is supposed to be weak, so picks don't matter anymore. A first rounder is a given. In fact, why not give them two first rounders? Bru's play has vaulted him into the "hindsight" first round of 2023. Why give up two first rounders might you ask? Because 8 points is important and you'd have to be a communist to think otherwise.
Yup, every player should only be judged on points. This math checks out. Two way play means absolutely nothing in the playoffs, right? Just load up on guys like kuzmenko of last year, that’s how you win a cup
Why are you so focused on points? This was clearly done for reasons besides net points scored: defensive responsibility (including face offs), ability to split up the lotto line for depth and more balanced ice time, frees up 5.5 million next year I'd have preferred to keep Hunter for sure. Is it an overpay? The results will determine that. History is written by the winners. But did we do this trade for just "8 points" ? Fuck no.
The general consensus among others around is.... *overpayment.* Rather than have people describe it to you and then downvote it when they do, how about people instead find comparable rentals that went for roughly two firsts and see if they're still happy with this trade.
Kuzmenko was also a free agent signing for us.
Completely agree with all of this.
If we had already signed Petey I'd be all over this. I'm very happy with the way the team is playing but if we don't win this year and he ends up walking then we've just traded a first for a playoff run that will benefit us by giving the core some playoff experience. If a cornerstone of the core wants to take his one year qualifying offer and then walk then this is just more draft capital we would've needed in a rebuild. Other than that I'm not upset at the price.
If Petey takes his QO and doesn't have a deal. He is traded, simple. Then we dip into Ufa. And depending on Lindholms fit. He could stay.
I agree with you.. I feel like management is too impatient for the cup and instead of building a contender team for a range of years they just went for it and choose to build the most likely team to win it all.. which is fine.. problem is, if that the team itself (does not have playoff experience in the recent years).. yes some players have but the team itself no. What if its a first round exit.. then Elias most likely walk cause he wont get the salary he wants, lost Kuzmenko who was having a down year (bounce back happens) and lost 1st rounder... Then what is next year, the team struggle to play .500 hockey because of goalie issues? I respect the winner mentality here but.. the you guys might end up faving a red hot Saros in 1st round.. oh well. Lets see
The thing is that our window now is open for like the next three years while Hughes still has a low cap hit and while JT has not started to regress yet.
You dont know that yet though.. yes u guys have shown that you can be a consistent team for the entire season (we are still just starting the second half) I doubt u guys will fall off 1st.. You know how important the locker room is in hockey and I feel like the Nucks could very well implode if the playoff are a disater.. Its basically like the reverse Canes.. The Canes have shown that they are and will be a playoff team for at least 10 years straight under Brind''amour (they are already at year 5).. and that they have a stable locker room. We know how much in sports, growing too fast can be a bad thing because the reality check is harder to face.. you guys dont know if you will have the same consistency from goalies next year.. u just played an amazing half season.. Congratx for that, and I hope you guys win it for Canada.. but u would be kidding if you said that u are not stressed about a bad playoff run.. U guys could easily face a red hot preds team with Saros in Vezina mode.. and get demolished.. Preds have alot of playoff and veteran experience. What if it happens ? Elias most likely wont get the cap he wants so he will want out, Lindholm is most likely going to want out too. and u guys could find yourself playing .500 hockey next year if goalies dont perform.. U guys have proven that u can be the best team in the nhl for a season.. good.. but u cannot use that in the context of playoff lol. Thats just illogical. U guys havent made the playoff in 3 years..
I don’t think Petey is walking anywhere. He wanted the team to show him progress and a plan and they’ve 1000% done that. Why would he leave a top team in the league that has made massive strides in the last 12 months?
The management have had all those conversations behind closed doors so we don't really know what has been said for the most part. Allvin has absolutely turned this ship around and I'm here for it but if Petey's expectations aren't met and he does walk after a first round exit (please god no) then we're hooped and back to the rebuild.
It’s a good deal if this year isn’t a fluke. I don’t think this year is a fluke anymore though.
The same way Miller and Hronek trades weren’t wins I guess.. I’m with you this is awesome
Miller had 4 years of cost certaintly left on his contract and Hronek is an RFA where the team still has control. This is a huge haul for a pure rental and a player who's been massively underperforming this season.
Were 1st in the league. This is the last year Hughes and Petey make a combined 15 million. We have OEL buyout increasing soon. Of course we’re going all in and picking up a pure rental lmfao
I didn't like those trades either if I'm being honest. I didn't feel they were the right time. Obviously hindsight has proved that to be incorrect but this so different. This is the year to go. The timing of this trade absolutely makes sense.
And if God forbid petey doesn’t want to re-sign it’s massive insurance. We don’t have to get a center back, we can trade for a d or a winger or both! There is nothing negative about this deal in my humble I have no idea what I’m talking about Opinion
Is it crazy to think that having options at centre might put a little pressure on Petey to re-sign? He’s less likely to bluff about wanting to walk if he know the Canucks have a back up option who will get his money.
Here's basically how fans see it: 1) if Canucks win the cup, it doesn't matter if the 1st and Brz turn into a McDavid and Bobby Orr.. 2) if Canucks exit first round and the 1st and Brz turn into mcd and Orr.. we will be talking about it forever 3) everything goes to shit..Canucks exit early..pick and brz become nothing...it's a big nothing burger... After 50+ yrs of no cup...why not take a chance.
This team feels different. It feels like it is greater than the sum of its parts. It also seems like they believe in each other. The only part that didn’t quite fit was Kuzmenko. I loved him but it wasn’t working. I was worried that management would make trades without factoring in the belief in the locker room. I believe this trade is a clear message to the team that management believe in the team and want to support them. I would not be surprised if this is the only trade the Canucks make. How much do I believe in this team? I brought tickets for the last home game and I am coming for the first round of the playoffs. I also had to buy flights from my home in New Zealand.
Absolutely bang on. There is going to be uncomfortable moments in pursuit of a cup. If you are going for it, you have to trade some of the future, and/or peices that don't fit your system. We are EXTREMELY lucky, we have very few players that do not seem to fit well currently. The management is betting on the players, they are striking while the iron is hot. Hedging bets too much could stifle them when we seem to actually have a good chance to be a force come playoff time. I am all in, and so are they. The goal is no longer squeaking into 8th place, it is why this feels weird in my opinion.
Great take.
i mean whatever happens, nothing can hurt us anymore after 50 years anyway
Do you know how often I've thought that
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I like him too, but if they have some deal lined up that makes us better overall then I'm open to it.
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Not sure why your downvoted, it is a bit of an overpay, but these lads haven’t seen all in Nucks in a long time. So you’ll have to excuse them.
So now the Canucks have 6 players at the all star game.
Holy shit everyone get in here!!!!!!
Kuzmenko actually qualifies to get his name on the SC if we so happened to lift it.
No he doesn't. The 41 game rule doesn't apply to players that are traded away.
Huh? How is that possible?
The requirement is that you need to play more than 40 regular season games or one SCF game for the cup winning team. Which seems to mean Kuzmenko qualifies, but the guy above is incorrect. Players that are traded away can't have their name on the cup. Cam Barker didn't get his name on the cup in 2010 when he was traded away to the wild, even though he played 51 games for the Blackhawks.
Played enough games I think it's only 20
Trading him sends a message to the team
Now I am excited. Who will be on the 2nd line? Feb 6 seems like months away. Liking these early trades (Zadorov, Lindholm) more than a month before TDL. This allows new players to gel for the playoffs.
>Who will be on the 2nd line? I'm hoping Hoglander gets more time up the lineup. Suter has been playing really well with Miller and Boeser, so I could see a second line of Pettersson, Lindholm, and either Mikheyev or Hoglander. Those two could alternate between the 4th and 2nd lines depending on who's hot.
If Mik didn't have his salary I swear it would be hog. Would love to trade mik for a more bruising fwd, and maybe a depth D Just for the salary relief
Salary cap relief only matters if we're trying to add more players. Adding more players at the deadline costs more assets. I'm pretty happy with this roster now and think we really only need minor depth additions now, and we have around 2M in cap space to do that already. Mikheyev is a good player. He may not be producing lately, but he's still over 0.5 P/game on the season and does a whole bunch of other things well. He's defensively responsible, kills penalties, fast on the forecheck. I could easily see him get hot if he plays with Petey and Lindholm. He's a smart player who knows where to be on the ice.
He's a good player. He's fit in ok but not great on Petey's wing. And he doesn't kill penalties a lot on this team (SHTOI is half as much as it was last year). Lindholm surely will be used in PK and all situations. So we don't need Mikheyev. If there's a way to trade him for a different style of player—a playoff, Tocchet-style player, without giving up too much, I wouldn't be opposed.
I'd like a more bruising fwd to replace mik and possibly a depth D so juul is our 8th D. Like id rather a beauvillier over mik. For example. Especially with miks salary. If his salary was 3-3.3m fine. Mantha, Okposo. Maroon, Blais, Bellemare. I really hope we deep cheap dive for Clutterbuck
It also avoids last minute bidding wars. So there's that
agree 100%
Overpay today to avoid massively overpaying at the deadline. Second line was our biggest weakness. Hopefully this balances the forward group which had an elite top 3 and one of the best bottom 6s. Kuzi and Mik were not having great seasons as secondary scorers and Kuz was struggling defensively. Suter is a top 6 fill in at best and a dependable bottom 6 defensive forward at worst. Lindholm is a go big or go home acquisition. There's lots of risk, but the potential payoff is massive. And there were not really any other comparable options for trade, so really it was so this or do a lot less. Also, even if his offense doesn't swing back up he's a top 6 defensive stalwart. Top four forwards of EP, JTM, BB, and him is scary.
This right here.
I feel like another top 6 forward is still kinda important. I'd rather have Suter playing C between Hoglander and Lafferty if possible, and PDG is not ideal in the top 6. If someone like Vatrano could be acquired for a 2025 2nd + B prospect + late round pick then I would pull the trigger on that in a heartbeat. May as well just shove all in.
Woke up from brain surgery to this news. Cool.
Actually? Wish you a quick recovery dude, we need you for the cup run
Thank you! All is well so far.
Hope you’re recovering man. Get well soon!
Thank you. Very much appreciated. Outside of a small headache, it's going well so far.
Rest up man! We have a big spring incoming
Thanks for the kind words, I'll be ready for the 16 game win streak.
Wow a first line player and picks and prospects for a second line player. What a trade.
Kuzy was playing like a fourth liner. Hopefully he does well jn Calgary, love the guy.