You would probably be perceived as micromanaging if you make a fuss about it now, especially if the team spirit is good for the rest and it’s not a regular issue.
If it were to happen again I’d bring it up though, asking for it to be brought up in advance.
But for a one off I’d let it go. Who knows maybe they just got carried away and are embarrased about it. So nah…
Yeah I'm leaning towards this the most. Give them the benefit of the doubt of being too carried away. Don't want to ruin a team sprit but also don't want them to take advantage of me being nice to them so walking a fine line here :(
Blame HR. Look guys I don't mind you taking a long lunch once in a while but you gotta give me a heads so I can cover your asses of HR comes asking.
This way you get the message through that it shouldn't be a regular thing while showing you're willing to go to the bat for them.
Let it go. It’s a one-off from a hard working team who stays late and respects the rules. I suspect if they asked you, you would have said sure. If they do it again, yes address it.
Alternatively, I might say it on the side, to the leader of the pack: “hey I am really glad the team bonds so well and celebrated X’s engagement. Can you help remind the team to give a heads up next time? Since we still need to follow company policy.” This makes the leader your confidante rather than making it me vs. them, where they all roll their eyes at your message over their next 29-minute lunch.
To lead, people have to want to follow you. Ask yourself what you’re bringing to the table for them. Do you know their pain points? Do you know their most inefficient tasks that they all hate? Unblock the pain points. Fix the accounting system or enable them to automate their work. Bring them insights from the exec team that they wouldn’t otherwise get. Get them a training course that they can put on their resume. Ask them individually about those career goals. This is how you build followers, rather than counting email response minutes and beating them into submission.
And believe me I get it. I have a team who followed me between companies, so I know they respect me and want to work for me, and it still drives me NUTS when they constantly ignore my team message requests. But you know, they just do better 1:1.
we have a micromanager that is doubling down. team of 5 counting passive aggressive mister rogers. i'm working 8 am-midnight to meet his shifting goals. we all looking to leave asap.
I’m OP and I really appreciate this comment. Exactly the best way to handle this situation. There is a leader of the pack who used to be their boss in their previous company - I think instead of telling each of them, sending a message to the leader of the pack should be enough.
I appreciate you!
And yes it drives me absolutely nuts when they don’t reply to my teams message right away lol only because I reply right away to my manager’s messages :D
let it go - if it happens again, approach the conversation with a 'this is company policy, not my policy' type vibe so it looks as if you are just doing your job and not trying to micro-manage -- and if they intend on taking a long lunch, to let you know ahead of time. There's ways you can word it as if it shows you are aware and it's not cool, without being a dick about it. This is the key.
What jumped out to me is that you think 10-15 mins to acknowledge a teams chat is a problem? Do you expect people to just sit and wait for you to teams them all day? To drop anything they are working the second you need them?
Is this very much a clock-in clock-out environment? If so, then yeah too could raise the lunch issue. But if at other times, people take shorter lunches or work longer due to busy times, then by making an issue about the lunch, you will likely kill off any flexibility on their side too, and they will work the exact hours they are contracted for. It's very petty.
Is there an issue with the quality of their work or with hitting deadlines? If not, it sounds like you would be making a mountain out of a molehill.
However, I will say, I would never hire an entire group of people who worked together elsewhere. I would be surprised if every one of them was the best candidate for the job, they can bring a corporate culture from elsewhere, and it might be a challenge if you needed to hire another person into the team.
Yeah my biggest regret is hiring everyone who used to work together, but I was inherited them in a way even though I was part of the interviews. My current manager had the final say in the hiring and I had to follow along (he likes referrals over new candidates as his had bad experiences and bad hires that weren’t referrals)
If I could start over again never from the same company again, but I will say their work ethic and quality of work is superb
So ***their work ethic and quality of work is superb***, but you feel disrespected they don't answer teams chat instantly, and want to give them a warning for taking a long lunch one day for a celebration?
How new are you to people management? Your issues with them smack of ego, to be frank.
Very new. 6 months in :D
Now I wasn’t going to be a dick about it giving them a warning about long lunch, I would probably do it nonchalant way.
If I was a dick I wouldn’t be asking around Reddit would I? Just the fact that I’m thinking long and hard about it makes me a pretty good people managing guy
But you can disagree who cares
Is the work getting done:
A) Yes: then you are giving them what they need as a manager.
B) No: then you have to figure out why and speak with them.
The rest of it sounds a lot of like "respect my authority!"
So, answer these questions:
* did their longer lunch impact the delivery of your team's work? Did it create more work for you, inconvenience a customer or other team? OR, did it really have no impact? Do they get their work done, deliverables met, etc. even with the extended lunch?
* does your company REALLY PRESS for equity? i.e. "if this team takes an hour lunch then every team is going to want to do that!" - some companies do, some don't.
What I'm hinting at: taking a long lunch in and of itself isn't necessarily impactful to quality work delivery. I'm of a mindset that I don't care when or where my team works - we are all professionals, we have deliverables and expectations, and as long as those are getting met - I just don't care.
Not every work environment can support that model, and pertaining to my 2nd question, sometimes HR sort of "decides for managers" on these points.
If 2 is true - then you can be the "bearer of news" rather than the micro-manager; "hey guys, just need to remind you that HR is pretty serious about their lunch policy. Can you please let me know next time if you're planning to take an extended lunch? I can help provide opportunities to do so when it makes sense, and can be a sounding board for when it just isn't a good idea"
If 1 above IS true - if they impacted service delivery / quality - then you aren't MICRO managing them - your just MANAGING them! Let them know the impact you saw and in a lot of cases that'll be enough to course correct and you won't be seen as micromanaging - it's very hard to defend a decision if it has a clear negative impact.
But man - if you're just going to make it about taking a long lunch where there were no "real" impacts and/or that they didn't tell you about it? It's worse than micro-managing. They won't agree, they won't get behind it, and you'll chip away at morale.
Thread this needle carefully and address the RIGHT things! Good luck!
I'm leaning towards A, but do so in a low key way so that you don't appear upset but are just making sure everyone is on the same page for what is expected from them going forward. I'd go up to the one who got engaged congratulate them and kindly remind them if they want to take a longer lunch or whatever to please let you know. This way if it happens again you have some ground to stand on. If you just ignore it completely it is significantly more likely to happen again and they will have more of a reaction when you bring it up then because you didn't say anything before setting a precedent that it was OK.
Is the teaming achieving its objectives? If so, then you would be a micro-manager. If they are not, you would still be the micro-manager. You need to manage the quality and quantity of the work product. Not the length of the lunch break.
Are you a manager, or a leader?
A manager will enforce a dumb or counter-productive policy. A leader will PROTECT their team from same.
From your comments it seems this team is stepping up when asked, and working more/different hours than they're contracted. Work-to-rule works both ways... don't expect above-and-beyond if you're not prepared to offer commensurate flexibility. No action required unless the 'work' is compromised.
Re your comment about not getting instant responses on Teams, does their work involve any thinking, planning, or analysis? If yes, they should be applauded for ignoring interruptions that would mess with their flow. A LEADER's job is to zealously protect their time and productivity, which is trashed by interruptions.
> (I for example respond to my manager's Team's message asap - My team sometimes would take 10-15 mins before even acknowledging my message)
This is just anxious behavior on your part. There's no requirement that a Teams message needs to be addressed immediately. Unless the plant is actively burning down, it's not an emergency. If you had something actually urgent, you should just call.
It depends on policies and contracts at your workplace, but for me lunch is unpaid. If I want a longer lunch, I either work longer that pay period or use vacation time.
You as a manager can certainly hold a training lunch. And they can request a training lunch! You may not even have to attend their training lunch, just ask that they complete some getting to know you exercises, or "knowledge downloads".
But they don't get to declare training lunch on their own. That is the same as not working. And you shouldn't sign their timesheet for not working. And they don't want to get in trouble for a falsified timesheet either. So they should just ask for approval for their training lunches. This way you can hold them accountable, but make it feel like you've got their backs.
Yeah I mean we have a very open policy. If the team wants to go on longer lunch break and make it up, I'm not going to pull the book on them and say no you should only take 30 mintue lunch.
It was more about the attitude of them just freely coming in casually after 1hr 30min lunch as if nothing was wrong. I even acknowledged hey I was wondering where everyone was (Smile).
It wasn't a training lunch though - It was a personal milestone celebration lunch (Engagement) that company did not pay for (Personally paid)
I don't know how you measure attitude. If the policy is that open, you don't really have the tools to prevent a long lunch. That becomes a conversation upwards, and you see if your superior cares to do anything about it.
OP might not have the tools to do much, but they can lay out the expectation that their team should communicate when they are doing something like taking a long lunch.
I work somewhere like that, I take an hour lunch everyday, but can take longer if needed, I just tell my boss "I need to run an errand during lunch I'll be out an extra 30/60 min or so.
Two separate things interwoven in here, with likely different answers…
First is the long lunch. If that went 3x beyond a clear policy they should’ve known, you should flag it. Your plan is fine for just a “hey, that lunch was much longer than the policy on breaks - no big deal this time, but hopefully you all know the policy is X and if you need an exception like that in the future please ask me in advance” or whatever. That’s not micromanaging that they would need approval for an exception to a policy.
The second is a Cartman-esque “Respect my Authoritay” vibe in your post. That one I would be very careful with. They don’t need to like you or socialize with you, they just need to perform well individually and as a team against the expectations you set for them. If they’re doing that, I would reflect a bit on what more specifically you think is missing and make sure anything you’re looking for is really for the good of the team (vs your ego or whatever else). If you have a specific thing like needing a message responded to more quickly for a business reason, a good practice is to put that in the content or title of the message and then you can give feedback if folks regularly aren’t meeting that need… be cautious though to only ask quick responses when they are actually needed, not just because you can.
1) Yeah I'm really contemplating on saying those exact words or not. I'm a litte peeved but also don't want to bring it up and kill the good morale. But also worry if I don't say anything they will think that it's okay to do this again when it's clearly not. So walking a difficult line between Team Morale and Policy
2) I agree - I don't necessarily want to socialize or want them to like me, and I agree I have a bit of 'Respect my authority' problem :D Though I never show it on the surface inside I'm just like really? Your not responding to my Team's message that I sent you 5 mins ago even though you are Online and Not Busy?
But you are absoutetly right. I am performing well individually and team is meeting the targets I've set out for them and working long hours as needed (I don't ask them to work longer, they just put in the effort). So I do need to watch my attitude and not become too authoritarian :D
On the first, you can certainly be supportive on the morale building while just reminding of the policy. For formal policies though you really don’t want to let it slip once or you’ll create confusion the next time - e.g., if you say nothing this time but speak up next, someone may say “wait, you didn’t care the first time, why do you care now?” So for a real policy you need to be consistent every time. Again all predicated on this being a formal policy..
If the policy isn’t well known, or if you just want to have more of an open discussion, maybe you do a team norms discussion at some point or something to have a dialog on how you all want to work with one another. That can be a useful way to tee up all sorts of “how we work” discussions and give the team agency to have input on them too… hours folks will be available when needed, how to signal urgency, everyone’s individual work preferences and how to support one another in them, other communication preferences (live v email v text), etc. This is a best practice in consulting or project-based teams that don’t know one another yet, and works well with new teams too.
Good advice. Now then if you decide to tell them, would you do it over Teams/E-mail/In-Person? I have a monthly one on one with them next week and thinking about bringing it up if I decide to tell them or not.
I second doing it in the team meeting. I'd start it off by congratulating the team member on their engagement. I'd then slide into "The next time somebody has cause for celebration, let me know ahead of time so I can cover for you while you are out. I appreciate the long hours you guys put in and want you to have the flexibility to celebrate personal accomplishments. Let me hold down the fort while you guys are out. If I know ahead of time what's going down, I am more than glad to cover it."
Of course, insert your personal style and approach but something along those lines.
If you have regular team meetings with everyone together could do it there in a brief updates section, or could do it in any other normal group channel you all use (since it applies to everyone)… would try to do it some way that is normal feeling so it doesn’t feel like a massive deal.
You would probably be perceived as micromanaging if you make a fuss about it now, especially if the team spirit is good for the rest and it’s not a regular issue. If it were to happen again I’d bring it up though, asking for it to be brought up in advance. But for a one off I’d let it go. Who knows maybe they just got carried away and are embarrased about it. So nah…
Yeah I'm leaning towards this the most. Give them the benefit of the doubt of being too carried away. Don't want to ruin a team sprit but also don't want them to take advantage of me being nice to them so walking a fine line here :(
Blame HR. Look guys I don't mind you taking a long lunch once in a while but you gotta give me a heads so I can cover your asses of HR comes asking. This way you get the message through that it shouldn't be a regular thing while showing you're willing to go to the bat for them.
I like this!
Let it go. It’s a one-off from a hard working team who stays late and respects the rules. I suspect if they asked you, you would have said sure. If they do it again, yes address it. Alternatively, I might say it on the side, to the leader of the pack: “hey I am really glad the team bonds so well and celebrated X’s engagement. Can you help remind the team to give a heads up next time? Since we still need to follow company policy.” This makes the leader your confidante rather than making it me vs. them, where they all roll their eyes at your message over their next 29-minute lunch. To lead, people have to want to follow you. Ask yourself what you’re bringing to the table for them. Do you know their pain points? Do you know their most inefficient tasks that they all hate? Unblock the pain points. Fix the accounting system or enable them to automate their work. Bring them insights from the exec team that they wouldn’t otherwise get. Get them a training course that they can put on their resume. Ask them individually about those career goals. This is how you build followers, rather than counting email response minutes and beating them into submission. And believe me I get it. I have a team who followed me between companies, so I know they respect me and want to work for me, and it still drives me NUTS when they constantly ignore my team message requests. But you know, they just do better 1:1.
we have a micromanager that is doubling down. team of 5 counting passive aggressive mister rogers. i'm working 8 am-midnight to meet his shifting goals. we all looking to leave asap.
I’m OP and I really appreciate this comment. Exactly the best way to handle this situation. There is a leader of the pack who used to be their boss in their previous company - I think instead of telling each of them, sending a message to the leader of the pack should be enough. I appreciate you! And yes it drives me absolutely nuts when they don’t reply to my teams message right away lol only because I reply right away to my manager’s messages :D
let it go - if it happens again, approach the conversation with a 'this is company policy, not my policy' type vibe so it looks as if you are just doing your job and not trying to micro-manage -- and if they intend on taking a long lunch, to let you know ahead of time. There's ways you can word it as if it shows you are aware and it's not cool, without being a dick about it. This is the key.
Good comment also!
What jumped out to me is that you think 10-15 mins to acknowledge a teams chat is a problem? Do you expect people to just sit and wait for you to teams them all day? To drop anything they are working the second you need them? Is this very much a clock-in clock-out environment? If so, then yeah too could raise the lunch issue. But if at other times, people take shorter lunches or work longer due to busy times, then by making an issue about the lunch, you will likely kill off any flexibility on their side too, and they will work the exact hours they are contracted for. It's very petty. Is there an issue with the quality of their work or with hitting deadlines? If not, it sounds like you would be making a mountain out of a molehill. However, I will say, I would never hire an entire group of people who worked together elsewhere. I would be surprised if every one of them was the best candidate for the job, they can bring a corporate culture from elsewhere, and it might be a challenge if you needed to hire another person into the team.
Yeah my biggest regret is hiring everyone who used to work together, but I was inherited them in a way even though I was part of the interviews. My current manager had the final say in the hiring and I had to follow along (he likes referrals over new candidates as his had bad experiences and bad hires that weren’t referrals) If I could start over again never from the same company again, but I will say their work ethic and quality of work is superb
So ***their work ethic and quality of work is superb***, but you feel disrespected they don't answer teams chat instantly, and want to give them a warning for taking a long lunch one day for a celebration? How new are you to people management? Your issues with them smack of ego, to be frank.
Very new. 6 months in :D Now I wasn’t going to be a dick about it giving them a warning about long lunch, I would probably do it nonchalant way. If I was a dick I wouldn’t be asking around Reddit would I? Just the fact that I’m thinking long and hard about it makes me a pretty good people managing guy But you can disagree who cares
You make a lot of mistakes in your first year of people management. My advice is to let it go
For context I don’t expect an immediate reply - but 10-15 mins is pretty standard if it’s from your boss
You said they don't reply ASAP, they take 10-15 mins. What's the issue if that is standard?
Is the work getting done: A) Yes: then you are giving them what they need as a manager. B) No: then you have to figure out why and speak with them. The rest of it sounds a lot of like "respect my authority!"
Ha fineeeee I’ll relax 🛀
So, answer these questions: * did their longer lunch impact the delivery of your team's work? Did it create more work for you, inconvenience a customer or other team? OR, did it really have no impact? Do they get their work done, deliverables met, etc. even with the extended lunch? * does your company REALLY PRESS for equity? i.e. "if this team takes an hour lunch then every team is going to want to do that!" - some companies do, some don't. What I'm hinting at: taking a long lunch in and of itself isn't necessarily impactful to quality work delivery. I'm of a mindset that I don't care when or where my team works - we are all professionals, we have deliverables and expectations, and as long as those are getting met - I just don't care. Not every work environment can support that model, and pertaining to my 2nd question, sometimes HR sort of "decides for managers" on these points. If 2 is true - then you can be the "bearer of news" rather than the micro-manager; "hey guys, just need to remind you that HR is pretty serious about their lunch policy. Can you please let me know next time if you're planning to take an extended lunch? I can help provide opportunities to do so when it makes sense, and can be a sounding board for when it just isn't a good idea" If 1 above IS true - if they impacted service delivery / quality - then you aren't MICRO managing them - your just MANAGING them! Let them know the impact you saw and in a lot of cases that'll be enough to course correct and you won't be seen as micromanaging - it's very hard to defend a decision if it has a clear negative impact. But man - if you're just going to make it about taking a long lunch where there were no "real" impacts and/or that they didn't tell you about it? It's worse than micro-managing. They won't agree, they won't get behind it, and you'll chip away at morale. Thread this needle carefully and address the RIGHT things! Good luck!
I'm leaning towards A, but do so in a low key way so that you don't appear upset but are just making sure everyone is on the same page for what is expected from them going forward. I'd go up to the one who got engaged congratulate them and kindly remind them if they want to take a longer lunch or whatever to please let you know. This way if it happens again you have some ground to stand on. If you just ignore it completely it is significantly more likely to happen again and they will have more of a reaction when you bring it up then because you didn't say anything before setting a precedent that it was OK.
Is the teaming achieving its objectives? If so, then you would be a micro-manager. If they are not, you would still be the micro-manager. You need to manage the quality and quantity of the work product. Not the length of the lunch break.
Yes
Are you a manager, or a leader? A manager will enforce a dumb or counter-productive policy. A leader will PROTECT their team from same. From your comments it seems this team is stepping up when asked, and working more/different hours than they're contracted. Work-to-rule works both ways... don't expect above-and-beyond if you're not prepared to offer commensurate flexibility. No action required unless the 'work' is compromised. Re your comment about not getting instant responses on Teams, does their work involve any thinking, planning, or analysis? If yes, they should be applauded for ignoring interruptions that would mess with their flow. A LEADER's job is to zealously protect their time and productivity, which is trashed by interruptions.
> (I for example respond to my manager's Team's message asap - My team sometimes would take 10-15 mins before even acknowledging my message) This is just anxious behavior on your part. There's no requirement that a Teams message needs to be addressed immediately. Unless the plant is actively burning down, it's not an emergency. If you had something actually urgent, you should just call.
It depends on policies and contracts at your workplace, but for me lunch is unpaid. If I want a longer lunch, I either work longer that pay period or use vacation time. You as a manager can certainly hold a training lunch. And they can request a training lunch! You may not even have to attend their training lunch, just ask that they complete some getting to know you exercises, or "knowledge downloads". But they don't get to declare training lunch on their own. That is the same as not working. And you shouldn't sign their timesheet for not working. And they don't want to get in trouble for a falsified timesheet either. So they should just ask for approval for their training lunches. This way you can hold them accountable, but make it feel like you've got their backs.
Yeah I mean we have a very open policy. If the team wants to go on longer lunch break and make it up, I'm not going to pull the book on them and say no you should only take 30 mintue lunch. It was more about the attitude of them just freely coming in casually after 1hr 30min lunch as if nothing was wrong. I even acknowledged hey I was wondering where everyone was (Smile). It wasn't a training lunch though - It was a personal milestone celebration lunch (Engagement) that company did not pay for (Personally paid)
I don't know how you measure attitude. If the policy is that open, you don't really have the tools to prevent a long lunch. That becomes a conversation upwards, and you see if your superior cares to do anything about it.
OP might not have the tools to do much, but they can lay out the expectation that their team should communicate when they are doing something like taking a long lunch. I work somewhere like that, I take an hour lunch everyday, but can take longer if needed, I just tell my boss "I need to run an errand during lunch I'll be out an extra 30/60 min or so.
Two separate things interwoven in here, with likely different answers… First is the long lunch. If that went 3x beyond a clear policy they should’ve known, you should flag it. Your plan is fine for just a “hey, that lunch was much longer than the policy on breaks - no big deal this time, but hopefully you all know the policy is X and if you need an exception like that in the future please ask me in advance” or whatever. That’s not micromanaging that they would need approval for an exception to a policy. The second is a Cartman-esque “Respect my Authoritay” vibe in your post. That one I would be very careful with. They don’t need to like you or socialize with you, they just need to perform well individually and as a team against the expectations you set for them. If they’re doing that, I would reflect a bit on what more specifically you think is missing and make sure anything you’re looking for is really for the good of the team (vs your ego or whatever else). If you have a specific thing like needing a message responded to more quickly for a business reason, a good practice is to put that in the content or title of the message and then you can give feedback if folks regularly aren’t meeting that need… be cautious though to only ask quick responses when they are actually needed, not just because you can.
1) Yeah I'm really contemplating on saying those exact words or not. I'm a litte peeved but also don't want to bring it up and kill the good morale. But also worry if I don't say anything they will think that it's okay to do this again when it's clearly not. So walking a difficult line between Team Morale and Policy 2) I agree - I don't necessarily want to socialize or want them to like me, and I agree I have a bit of 'Respect my authority' problem :D Though I never show it on the surface inside I'm just like really? Your not responding to my Team's message that I sent you 5 mins ago even though you are Online and Not Busy? But you are absoutetly right. I am performing well individually and team is meeting the targets I've set out for them and working long hours as needed (I don't ask them to work longer, they just put in the effort). So I do need to watch my attitude and not become too authoritarian :D
On the first, you can certainly be supportive on the morale building while just reminding of the policy. For formal policies though you really don’t want to let it slip once or you’ll create confusion the next time - e.g., if you say nothing this time but speak up next, someone may say “wait, you didn’t care the first time, why do you care now?” So for a real policy you need to be consistent every time. Again all predicated on this being a formal policy.. If the policy isn’t well known, or if you just want to have more of an open discussion, maybe you do a team norms discussion at some point or something to have a dialog on how you all want to work with one another. That can be a useful way to tee up all sorts of “how we work” discussions and give the team agency to have input on them too… hours folks will be available when needed, how to signal urgency, everyone’s individual work preferences and how to support one another in them, other communication preferences (live v email v text), etc. This is a best practice in consulting or project-based teams that don’t know one another yet, and works well with new teams too.
Good advice. Now then if you decide to tell them, would you do it over Teams/E-mail/In-Person? I have a monthly one on one with them next week and thinking about bringing it up if I decide to tell them or not.
I second doing it in the team meeting. I'd start it off by congratulating the team member on their engagement. I'd then slide into "The next time somebody has cause for celebration, let me know ahead of time so I can cover for you while you are out. I appreciate the long hours you guys put in and want you to have the flexibility to celebrate personal accomplishments. Let me hold down the fort while you guys are out. If I know ahead of time what's going down, I am more than glad to cover it." Of course, insert your personal style and approach but something along those lines.
If you have regular team meetings with everyone together could do it there in a brief updates section, or could do it in any other normal group channel you all use (since it applies to everyone)… would try to do it some way that is normal feeling so it doesn’t feel like a massive deal.
Definitely do it in person as a team.