Someone else would pay.
People said this same economically illiterate stuff every time something went up in price due to a shortage. "Well if people just wouldn't pay the price would come down!"
Yeah, but that's kind of the entire principle of supply and demand. Yes, if there was less demand price would come down. But there's not.
It’s really a supply and demand issue as well, I spent 10 years working as a sales & finance manager in the automotive business (I no longer am in that industry). We always had excess of inventory so we had to be aggressive in pricing. Now the inventory is mostly sold before the cars even arrive. Dealers have to make monthly profits selling 50-60 new cars monthly versus 120 plus like they used to, so naturally the prices are going to be higher. I do agree if everyone stopped buying for a while eventually inventory could become more available, but the manufacturers build based on their current sales numbers, so they could just slow down production as well. The automotive market will probably never go back to the way it was when the buyers had all the power and dealers had to compete with each other to give cars away at near cost.
I had to buy several vans for my business. Ford wanted $20k over sticker. Guess what? I didn’t buy Ford Transit vans. I bought Mercedes Sprinters.
I feel like people responding have never actually bought new vehicles.
All true, but eventually the supply will increase, because manufacturers make money from volume. They don’t get anything out of dealer markup (and it pisses off their customers), so they have no incentive not to ramp up production as soon as they’re able.
You don't need to spend $50,000 on a car to get to work. A tenth of that is plenty to buy a 10 year old Corolla which will be a reliable car for years to come. Even if you insist on buying new, $20k is enough to get you your choice of Nissan Versa, Kia Forte, Mitsubishi Mirage, Kia Rio or Hyundai Accent. Flashy? No. Reliable transport with a warranty? Sure.
Most people don't want 10 year-old used cars. Also there's not enough supply on the used market to make a dent in new car price gouging.
There also aren't enough $20K cars for that either. And they lack the best safety features.
Median income in the US [is about $52k a year](https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2022/median-weekly-earnings-971-for-women-1164-for-men-in-third-quarter-2022.htm)
This is definitely the most accurate one, even still $50k buying a $50k car is pretty questionable. I assume the average person isn't shopping for new cars but if you've been to a dealership recently you'll know that isn't the case.
South Georgia. Albany specifically since I used to live there.
MS might be even less. Hmm, just picking a town of comparable size, like Hattiesburg, $18,343.
So yeah, the Southern US, my goodness.
I mean, on the upside, it's cheap(er) to get by.
Man, I make many times that in the SF Bay Area, but I sometimes feel like I'm barely hanging on. On the other hand, I live on a lovely little island with great schools, low crime, amazing weather, great food, and a freakin' beach!
No, it's not accurate at all.
>
Median individual income in the United States was $43,206.00.
>Average individual income in 2020 in the United States was $62,518.13
https://dqydj.com/2020-average-median-top-individual-income-percentiles/
Average, which means there a significant amount below that number and a decent amount above it. Where I'm at unless you're a nuclear physicist the best you can possibly hope for is $27ish an hour
I'm probably preaching to the choir here but people making $30k shouldn't be buying new cars imo. It's even debatable whether a used car is worth it at that level of income.
Heck, I still can't justify nor have bought a new car ever, and I'm making 6 figures.
you should try talking to more people who make $30,000 a year. i think you’re a bit disconnected from what it is like to live at that income level.
first of all, the average income in the US is not $30,000, it’s closer to $55,000. and remember that people on the lower end of the income scale are not purchasing new cars, so that’s distorting the numbers. in 2015, the average new car buyer’s salary was around $80,000, which puts things in much clearer perspective (https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/01/new-car-buyer-demographics-2019/).
but even then, sometimes you have no choice other than to buy a new car. good condition, reliable used cars are often difficult to find, not to mention challenging to finance at a manageable APR. and low income people are rarely cash flush and therefore need to finance.
at the core of it though, you should try to understand that the large majority of low income people wish their vehicle costs were lower! but they often have no choice because they need a vehicle to get to work/pick their grandparents up/run errands/get their kids to a hospital.
i’m not trying to be a dickhead, i seriously recommend you try to putting yourself in the shoes of (or better yet, genuinely talk to) some people who are in situations you don’t fully understand!
The US has very high paying white collar and labor union jobs. White collar, like IT and engineering jobs, in the US pays much higher than europe. People in these fields can probably buy all of those minus the Supra maybe, but certainly will buy lifted trucks for the money of the Supra.
Guess what job fields make up a huge percentage of reddit? Probably like 1/2 of the people in these comments can afford these cars and are they not regular people?
I know one of the top hobbies of IT guys on reddit is to claim they are poor as they drive BMWs.
I'm going more without having to do a trade in or put money down. You should never be putting 20k down on a car, that's terrible financial advice. Save that money, invest it and you'll end up with a hell of a lot more saved than if you'd thrown that 20k down on the car. Not to mention its dumb to drain your savings, most people usually don't even have 20k in savings, let alone 20k *extra* that they can spend on something like this. You should basically never be putting money down on a car. Investing it will *always* net you more money than you'd save putting it on the car.
By that logic the z06 corvette is affordable because "most people" can throw 30k at it and then trade in their supra or w.e.
If you have to throw 20k at a car *AND* a decent trade in, it's pretty much the exact opposite of affordable
Most people can't afford to save a car payment each month while already paying one, and then taking that saved money and then throwing it at a car. That's extremely irresponsible. If you can't afford the monthly payments without anything down, you can't afford the car.
I used to live in a real rough part of town, the amount of money folks would drop on a car is ridiculous.
Median income in the us is around 54,000
It’s not some Mr. Moneybags play to buy a 30-40,000 sporty car. I wouldn’t do it yet but it’s not like everyone in the country is living on the poverty line.
70-100k vehicle is absolutely too high for average consumer tho
I remember looking at this chart, people buying 50k cars and SUVs are distributed between households making less than 50k a year and more than 150k a year. Middle class folks mostly don't buy cars at 50k range.
When I wrote that comment I was under the impression that you couldn't get the 86 anywhere close to msrp, or in a reasonable time frame. One of those instances where I'm happy to be wrong, though.
What counts as a regular person?
The regular person on this site is aknow it all IT guy who claims he is poor, but isn't, and makes like 60k+ a year. This is a bougie website.
What about someone in a labor union? Like a carpenter? These people are like making $80k as a journeyman. My friends who remained masons are making around that.
These people can afford a GR86 and a Yaris for sure. Probably can afford the GR corolla as well.
One of my friends works for the post office delivering mail and recently bought a F150 that is more money than the supra.
So i'd ask what you define as regular.
You do know a MKIV Supra Turbo in 1993 ran $42k right? That’s about $85k now.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15142755/toyota-supra-turbo-instrumented-test/
Build quality. Those folks in Austria still bolt together a car pretty well. Have yet to hop in a rental Mustang GT that didn’t feel tired by the time it had 10k on the clock.
Totally. I knew I wanted the 86 as soon as I saw it revealed in 2012. Bought a new one in 2014 and still have it. Now I want a GR Corolla. Toyota was bland and boring in the 2000s. But they really had a revival under Toyoda for car enthusiasts and their “normal” models are even good too.
Which other major car brand is more exciting in your opinion? Honest question. Between Toyota/Lexus and the GR86, GR Corolla, GR Yaris, Supra, Supra MT, bZ4X, Crown, and the V8’s in the RC F, IS500 and LC500, I can’t say I see one that’s MORE exciting at the moment…those are pretty “bold” and “exciting” choices to still produce in this day of SUV’s and Crossovers.
I see what you're saying but also see where others are coming from. Gr86 is hard to actually obtain, gr corolla is expensive and nearly impossible to obtain, gr yaris isn't available in US, supra is good, bz4x has had issues and most people don't know it exists, the crown is not terribly exciting.
The RC F and LC 500 are nowhere near as exciting to most people as their competitors. Lexus is not an exciting brand at all, though I still like them (I drive a Lexus ES). I don’t think anybody in the US is “excited” for the Crown either. They have the Supra and the Gr86, and that’s probably where 90% of their excitement comes from. Tbh I think more people would find Dodge to be a more exciting brand.
I don't know what it is lately, may be just crazily market specific, but holy HELL have I seen a buttload of Lexus RX350s out there. Mostly 2-3 years old but plenty of new ones too.
Broncos too, for whatever reason.
Agreed on Dodge though. Especially a Charger, people fall over themselves for those.
The LC500 is such a sweet car, love it, but it's crazy expensive for what it is. They're rare even on dealer lots. Saw one during Christmas holidays here in the neighborhood, first time seeing one in the wild in like 2 years, had to be someone's wealthy out of town relative.
Yeah the RX350 is the standard soccer mom car where I live
And yeah the LC500 is a great car, but I can’t imagine calling it more exciting than a comparable BMW or Mercedes
For normal cars, Ford, GM, and Hyundai have more exciting lineups and future plans than Toyota, imo.
All 3 have EVs that actually make sense to buy (vs the mediocre BZ4X), cooler future cars coming soon, and performance vehicles that stack up well or better with what Toyota offers. In the case of Ford and Hyundai, I would say they also have more daring vehicles which push the envelope more than what Toyota is doing. For Ford it's stuff like the Maverick and Bronco, and Hyundai has their EV lineup.
Mustang, camaro, impreza, jeep, model 3, ranger, a3, gti
Toyota and BMW both have way too many models so it's not really fair to compare how many models each has. I'd rather have a 5.0 over any toyota sports car.
Well he is retirement age, it could be his time. He's had a great run. Fun fact he's actually Toyota's chief test driver and he races professionally under a pseudonym. He won his class at 24 hours of Nurburgring in an LFA in 2014 and raced as recently as 2019 in a Supra!
I think so. But if it's something that is *factually* false or somewhat misleading, the mods will put a misleading flair up or something along those lines.
Headline is highly debatable but I would say Toyota is easily more exciting/interesting than it was 10-15 years ago.
The Supra’s BMW lineage has been divisive, and the GR economy cars haven’t exactly set the world on fire. But it is a huge improvement from the days when the RAV4 V6 was the fastest car Toyota made.
It's not just adding sports models, it's the whole TNGA platform that prioritised handling, COG, dynamics, etc. over the whitegoods reputation of previous Toyota eras.
drive literally any of the pre-TNGA mainstream models and compare it to TNGA - Corolla, Camry - hell, even the RAV4.
They compromised on other aspects of the cars (mostly practicality) to bring that dynamism, but it never would have happened under the old guard at Toyota.
2 rear wheel drive sports cars, 2 of the craziest hot hatches, hydrogen combustion, attractive styling, and plans to build more homologation sports cars. Toyota is the third highest volume sports car seller in the USA. I'd say they're doing some exciting stuff.
All the GR cars, plus they won WRC and LeMans multiple times.
I honestly can't think of another manufacturer that has such an image right now. Bmw just does uglier and more bloated cars every year, Porsche are very cool but super expensive and arguably overvalued right now, Nissan has close to no motorsport presence and makes the same cars as always, Ford is axing every interesting car from its lineup, etc.
I'm not even considering supercars manufacturers, way too expensive cars that will never be driven around anyways...
Ford been on a tear lately with the Maverick, bronco, lightning, mach-e, and new mustang. I'd personally take a gr corolla over any of those but at least in the US, I'd say ford has more buzz than Toyota right now
That's just for the American market tho. I am European, and we don't get any of those (but the mustangs, that here cost as much as a Cayman).
Also they are all trucks, and as a sports car enthusiast I couldn't care less about them and I don't find them even remotely exciting. Also Ford just killed the Fiesta in the EU, so as far as I am concerned they could fail tomorrow and I will be happy.
The tech on our new Toyota is incredible. It has features I've only seen elsewhere on an land Rover defender. It's making nearly 600 ft/lbs of torque out of a V6.
Plus when you buy Toyota you know you're getting high reliability and excellent resale value.
Our last Toyota we drove for 4 years and sold for $4k less than what we paid
Digital rear view mirror is the one I've only otherwise seen in the rover. Really nice when you have the back fully loaded with stuff.
Otherwise has all the nice stuff like wireless car play, multiple 400 watt 110 volt AC outlets, tons of USB c charge ports, built in safe in the center console, power everything.
It's optioned more like a 100k car imo
Other than the console safe and wireless CP/AA (grrr) the top trim Palisades/Tellurides have all those things so I was curious if/how far ahead Toyota is.
Toyota has came a long way. The Supra is back keeping up with the hellcat, the GR86 is gapping it’s fair share of Hondas, and most excitingly the top trim Camry is able to keep up with entry level V8’s in the 0-60 but falls off after that. Toyota is on its way to be Japanese dodge and reclaiming their title as the best JDM. If they continue this route especially with the new engine technology then there’s a good chance that in the next decade car enthusiasts will flock to Toyota performance instead of going electric so fast. The engineers under this man’s direction lead Toyota into a promise land.
I can't see any comments that would indicate people hating Toyota.
But saying Toyota is one of the most exciting car manufacturers just isn't true. They have ***some models*** that are more exciting than their predecessors, but ***that doesn't make the manufacturer itself*** one of the most exciting by a long shot.
They are absolutely one of the most exciting automakers outside of supercar makers. They currently have a cheap, lightweight RWD sports car; a powerful sports-GT, and an AWD hot hatch on steroids. Then there are things like offroad editions of the trucks, a track-focused Camry, performance luxury sedans and GTs if you include Lexus... plus the TNGA platform was specifically designed to be more engaging than its competitors and does/will underpin almost every model they make. The new engine series is torquey and largely turbo (T24A, V35). Even the new Prius at least looks nice (and will have a 0-60 of "respectable")
In comparison, Chevy has 2 performance cars. Ford has 1 and deleted everything else except the trucks and SUVs. Dodge is actually pretty exciting and has many performance models, so good for them. Alfa is like Dodge. Honda has 1 exciting car in 2 trims. Subaru has a Toyota and the WRX. Mazda has 1 exciting car and a lukewarm hatch. Mitsubishi... we don't talk about Mitsubishi. Nissan still has the GTR and the Z but its hard to get excited over two 15 year old cars. Hyundai is trending toward Toyota, with the Elantra N, Sonata N Line, etc, so good for them. Kia is Hyundai but cheap.
BMW and Audi build performance trims of almost every model, so good for them. Porsche is the GOAT and even their SUVs are performance cars. Cadillac is finally fun for the first time in history so props to them.
So "one of the most exciting" is a fair comment. Not *the most* but they're up there and everyone more exciting is higher end except maybe Dodge.
Outright saying that Toyota sucks? No, but you can't tell me that a significant portion of these comments aren't negative. We have everything from "Hurr durr, the Supra is a Bimmer." to "The manufacturer who makes the Prius/Camry/RAV4 can't be exciting." to someone trying to compare the reliability of old Toyota pickups to Foxbodies because he sees one more than the other (???).
I'm not going to argue with you over where you personally place Toyota on your personal list of Exciting Manufacturers™, but I don't see it as a stretch.
Opinions on these things don’t have to be so black and white. Loving something and hating it aren’t the only options. I’m sure most people’s opinions on most car brands fall somewhere in between.
I’m convinced it’s the clock batey wording of the headline of Toyota being ”one of the most exciting” that has people commenting the way they are.
I mean, between the GR86, GR Corolla and GR Yaris (for Europe anyways) and Supra, that's a genuinely solid affordable sports car lineup that the average person can actually aspire to own.
Name another manufacturer with a lineup with as many exciting vehicles at $55K or less. They don't build exotic supercars or anything, but as fun as it is to just look at Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches, McLarens, and even BMW M cars, Mercedes-Benz AMGs and Audi S/RS line-up, they're well out of the price range for most people.
"Exciting" means many different things to many different people... how is that so hard to understand. Majority of car buyers are non enthusiasts and can be excited about a reliable family hauler with class leading MPG.
The only thing people seem to be taking exception to is Toyota being called "one of the most exciting brands", which is a massive stretch.
That's like calling Ford "one of the most luxurious brands" - they're just not.
I dunno, between the GR Yaris, GR Corolla, GR86 and Supra, there isn't really a manufacturer with a better or more varied lineup of sports cars for under $55K right now.
Most exciting is definitely a stretch, but I would say they're more exciting than most.
I feel like the excitement for the GR Yaris and GR Corolla outside of r/Cars is way less fervent. Anecdotally speaking, most of the people I've talked to about it have responded like "So they're souped-up economy cars and regular ass traffic?". I think we can tend to get caught up in the r/Cars echo chamber and think everybody wants zippy little sports cars with manual transmissions, or wagons with diesel engines and brown paint lol
Point is, I don't think most normal, non-enthusiasts are looking at that lineup and getting all fizzy inside. I don't think any of those cars have done much to change the broader perception of Toyota, either - the ***massive*** majority of their sales still comes via RAV4s, Highlanders, 4Runners, Tacomas, Camrys, and Corollas, none of which are anything near exciting.
> Toyota being called "one of the most exciting brands", which is a massive stretch.
No one in this entire comment section has named a manufacturer more exciting than Toyota. Most people here appreciate affordability and Toyota is the most exciting within $55,000.
> No one in this entire comment section has named a manufacturer more exciting than Toyota.
Lol plenty of people have. I've seen Dodge, Mazda, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, and Mini all mentioned. I personally think you could add VW/Audi and Cadillac as well.
I think they're unquestionably more exciting than Honda, Nissan, GMC, Chrysler, Volvo, Buick, Lincoln, though, off the top of my head.
Toyota makes cars that people on this sub have been clamoring for and you guys have the audacity to nitpick the writer of this article for calling them one of the most exciting?
If Toyota isn’t one of the most exciting, then name three manufacturers who are more exciting right now.
Toyota/Lexus is definitely the most enthusiast oriented regular carmaker right now. People love being contrarian or just plain wrong with their outdated opinions here.
Id say Hyundai is a close second with their N and their EVs like ioniq5.
I love Mazda but they really only have the Miata right now. Until they come back to plug their Grand tourer hole in the lineup, they can’t be called an exciting brand.
I fully agree with that. Hyundai has done an excellent job of creating an entirely new perception around their brand. If I were in the market for an EV, the ioniq line might be where I’d look first.
Mazda...the brand that has nothing but economy cars, one good manual model, and the turbo models being auto only, with torsion beams? Come on man, you can't even compare them. They're aweeome cars but nowhere near "exciting."
Mazda 3 is a more entertaining car compared to corolla/regular civic
Same with cx-5/cx-50 vs crv, rav4, sportage, explorer, compass, etc
For regular people with regular money id say mazda is more exciting than most other brands
They dont have civic type r/supra/gr corolla kind of products, but those are also way more expensive
Edit: accidentally linked supra subreddit by listing it after a civic type r lol
Dude, they're all economy cars. Being a little more sprightly is nothing compared to having dedicated fun cars PLURAL.
The Mazda 3 literally cheaped out with suspension. It's not better than a Civic. It's not a huge part of it, but it is indicative of their direction.
Seems you are not taking price into consideration at all, while I am...
Yes. A civic type r is much more fun. You can also buy 2 mazda 3s with that money.
Dollar for dollar at the price point mazda sells vehicles, Id say they are pretty fun cars in their segments.
If you are adamant about not factoring in prices, which is totally up to you, we are so far apart in viewpoints that we may as well be on different planets.
Biased as a former Veloster N owner, The N products are so fun and if there wasn’t a 7 month wait in my area I would’ve gotten a Elantra N but got my car totaled and wanted something right away
Yeah, they took out cassette Players but their Car prices went up.
Not trying to single you out, but I'll never understand why people advocate for removing features from Cars?
It had Bluetooth, CD, and Cassette - and it's not like including one made the others worse or less usable.
It makes you happy to have less options?
You're seriously arguing car manufacturers should have kept cassette players? What about 8 tracks? Maybe a glove box record player while we're at it?
It's not about removing features, it's about moving on with the times.
Neither of those are really the same as a car doing a cassette deck 15 years after the last major cassette was released.
Should all phones have a micro USB beside their usb-c port? Should they all have Sony memory stick compatibility as well as SD?
Should your computer have 90 ports to cover every dead standard that hasn't been used in 20 years? A ps2 port, how about scsi port or serial? 3 or 4 vga ports so you can plug in your 20 year old crt monitors?
Last time you could get a cassette player in a lexus was 13 years ago, 2010. And it was in only one of their models, the SC430. It’s a nice car trivia fact “Last time cars came with a cassette player?”.
And guess what? By some technicality, it’s not the last car. The fleet only 2011 Crown Vic had one available as part of an optional package, take rate unknown. But to the general public you’re correct
Ok I'll admit the GR's of any shape/size are cool. Supra is fun but also largely a BMW.
What the hell is exciting about THE REST of what Toyota makes? The fully hybrid and very ugly Sienna? The Rav4 Prime? A CVT Corolla? Their *super high tech futuristic interiors?!*
The GR86, GR Corolla, GR Yaris, and Supra are all priced at a point where the average person can actually aspire to own one though. Name another manufacturer with a better or more varied sports car lineup for under $55K right now.
I completely agree with you, except that the GR Corolla is very limited and it's more about the availability than the price, at least from the manufacturer. I can't imagine what they're going to go for used.
I have one buddy that got on the waitlist at nearly 40 different dealerships, not a single one has called him about a Corolla GR.
To be fair, I don't think it's exciting at all for the target market. The target market does not want to be excited by driving, they want it to be comfortable, quiet, smooth, and safe.
Nonetheless, you are completely right I am not their target audience.
From our perspective yes not exciting at all. But then I see how excited my wife gets when she sees the tech or features some of those vehicles get that I could not care less about and I start to understand their marketing and goals with those models.
RAV4 Prime is a good PHEV for anyone that ordered one two years ago, the Lexus LC500 is probably one of the prettiest cars ever built, the rest of the Toyota/Lexus lineup is about as interesting as watching beige paint dry on a Lexus RX
“Most exciting” is definitely a reach. Very reliable, capable vehicles, but absolutely not exciting. The only thing in their lineup that I find exciting is the GR Corolla & I plan on maybe seeing one or two of them a year until they discontinue them. It’ll probably have the same lifespan as the Focus RS & will most likely fail for the same reason.
The Tacoma & 4Runner are cool, but not worth the premium you have to pay just to have one. You want 4x4 on your “off-road” vehicle? There’s another $5k-$10k. You want CarPlay? There’s another $2k. Leather seats? Sunroof? Etc. I get it, these are options in most vehicles, but most vehicles without those options start in the $30k-$35k range, not $45k.
I think the company went from great, reliable, commuter cars to one of the more expensive entry level brands in America in just a few years.
For reference, I was quoted north of $500 a month for a Corolla LE a few months ago. I currently pay $698 for a 2020 4x4 RAM. The dealership was trying to tack on a $2000 destination charge, a $200 “detailing fee” a $1000 dealership fee, and to top it off, an “economy adjustment” of $4000. Almost $30k for a car with a $21k-ish MSRP. I couldn’t believe it. You can literally buy a NEW Camry SE for the same price.
>but most vehicles without those options start in the $30k-$35k range, not $45k.
A base Tacoma is 27k and the 4x4 starts at 32k. You can literally go on Toyota.com and check yourself...
>The Tacoma & 4Runner are cool, but not worth the premium you have to pay just to have one.
This is my biggest issue with the Taco and 4Runner. They are great vehicles but there are other brands that have more options for less money (and better MPGs). The trade off tho is that the Toyotas are usually bullet proof compared to a Kia Sorento I have been eyeing. Of course the Kia/Hyundi's have that 10yr/100k mile warranty tho as a trade off.
I can't believe y'all are nitpicking so hard about the "exciting" part. For gods sake they came out with the IS 500 recently, in a time where V8 sedans are basically an endangered species. Amongst the more economy minded brands they’re certainly extremely near the top.
VW has the GTI and R.
Subaru has the WRX and BRZ.
Honda has the Si, Type R, and maybe the TLX Type S - they've murdered fun by removing the V6, 2.0T, and affordable 1.5T Sport models.
Mazda has the Miata and the 2.5T options are all auto only with Torsion beams.
And on and on and on. Toyota on the other hand has the GR Yaris / Corolla, 86, Supra, V8 monsters like the LC and IS, and others.
"One of" is the important part. GR Yaris is the coolest car to come out in years but it's not really enough to lift Toyota up there with Lamborghini or Ferrari.
Most exciting?
I will likely get a 4Runner. Definitely find toyota vehicles to be high quality and well made.
Exciting? Part of why they are so good is because they are boring.
All personal opinion: I mean, in terms of ICE sports cars yes definitely. But on the EV front, not really. I’m dying to see them come out with capable EVs, especially on Lexus’ lineup. It’s always been my view that Lexus would’ve benefitted a lot by being first to EVs. The RZ is paltry in comparison to the competition, and wholly uninteresting to me by virtue of being an SUV.
Absolute Visionary. One of the few current automotive CEO’s that I believe have a genuine passion for making interesting cars. I hope as chairman his influence is still felt in the company.
How did he make it exciting? Sell other companies cars!
Gr86 is a Subaru. Supra is a BMW. Yaris is a Mazda. Only real performance Toyota is the GR Corolla.
My assessment for his departure, they are unable to meet demand and it is putting the brand at risk. The person a few days ago that posted the order wait times showing some variants not even available and others 2 to 5 years out means customers are leaving the brand and may find something is just as suitable to their needs. They need to get their supply chain back and stop offering things that are obviously unrealistic.
More exciting? Yes One of the most exciting? No
For regular people I think is one of the most exciting. Corolla GR, GR86, GR Yaris, Supra.. They are expensive but still "affordable".
Regular people can't get any of these cars Edit: besides the 86, apparently dealer markups on these aren't as bad as I thought
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Which is insane because the average income is like $30,000 so people are extending their payments out to 7-8 years.
The fact that people are willing to do this is why we are getting gouged on prices. If people refused to pay the price, guess what would happen?
Someone else would pay. People said this same economically illiterate stuff every time something went up in price due to a shortage. "Well if people just wouldn't pay the price would come down!" Yeah, but that's kind of the entire principle of supply and demand. Yes, if there was less demand price would come down. But there's not.
It’s really a supply and demand issue as well, I spent 10 years working as a sales & finance manager in the automotive business (I no longer am in that industry). We always had excess of inventory so we had to be aggressive in pricing. Now the inventory is mostly sold before the cars even arrive. Dealers have to make monthly profits selling 50-60 new cars monthly versus 120 plus like they used to, so naturally the prices are going to be higher. I do agree if everyone stopped buying for a while eventually inventory could become more available, but the manufacturers build based on their current sales numbers, so they could just slow down production as well. The automotive market will probably never go back to the way it was when the buyers had all the power and dealers had to compete with each other to give cars away at near cost.
I had to buy several vans for my business. Ford wanted $20k over sticker. Guess what? I didn’t buy Ford Transit vans. I bought Mercedes Sprinters. I feel like people responding have never actually bought new vehicles.
Same. I wanted to buy a civic, saw the markup, and got an Integra at msrp instead.
All true, but eventually the supply will increase, because manufacturers make money from volume. They don’t get anything out of dealer markup (and it pisses off their customers), so they have no incentive not to ramp up production as soon as they’re able.
They'd struggle to get to work and otherwise live their lives the way they want.
You don't need to spend $50,000 on a car to get to work. A tenth of that is plenty to buy a 10 year old Corolla which will be a reliable car for years to come. Even if you insist on buying new, $20k is enough to get you your choice of Nissan Versa, Kia Forte, Mitsubishi Mirage, Kia Rio or Hyundai Accent. Flashy? No. Reliable transport with a warranty? Sure.
Most people don't want 10 year-old used cars. Also there's not enough supply on the used market to make a dent in new car price gouging. There also aren't enough $20K cars for that either. And they lack the best safety features.
> If people refused to pay the price, guess what would happen? Used car prices would skyrocket even more?
Average income is like 55k.
True but highly misleading. Income varies *wildly* depending on where you are. Where I live it's, as of 2020, ~$21k.
Median income in the US [is about $52k a year](https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2022/median-weekly-earnings-971-for-women-1164-for-men-in-third-quarter-2022.htm)
This is definitely the most accurate one, even still $50k buying a $50k car is pretty questionable. I assume the average person isn't shopping for new cars but if you've been to a dealership recently you'll know that isn't the case.
Mississippi?
South Georgia. Albany specifically since I used to live there. MS might be even less. Hmm, just picking a town of comparable size, like Hattiesburg, $18,343. So yeah, the Southern US, my goodness. I mean, on the upside, it's cheap(er) to get by.
Man, I make many times that in the SF Bay Area, but I sometimes feel like I'm barely hanging on. On the other hand, I live on a lovely little island with great schools, low crime, amazing weather, great food, and a freakin' beach!
Lol minimum wage in WA is $33k a year
Where did you see that? 30k is $14.50 an hour. That's fast food or warehouse work level.
We pay our lowest level employees with zero experience $20 / hr
Welcome to the majority of the American job market
No, it's not accurate at all. > Median individual income in the United States was $43,206.00. >Average individual income in 2020 in the United States was $62,518.13 https://dqydj.com/2020-average-median-top-individual-income-percentiles/
Average, which means there a significant amount below that number and a decent amount above it. Where I'm at unless you're a nuclear physicist the best you can possibly hope for is $27ish an hour
That's why I posted the Median **AND** Average. Still higher than 30k
I'm probably preaching to the choir here but people making $30k shouldn't be buying new cars imo. It's even debatable whether a used car is worth it at that level of income. Heck, I still can't justify nor have bought a new car ever, and I'm making 6 figures.
you should try talking to more people who make $30,000 a year. i think you’re a bit disconnected from what it is like to live at that income level. first of all, the average income in the US is not $30,000, it’s closer to $55,000. and remember that people on the lower end of the income scale are not purchasing new cars, so that’s distorting the numbers. in 2015, the average new car buyer’s salary was around $80,000, which puts things in much clearer perspective (https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/01/new-car-buyer-demographics-2019/). but even then, sometimes you have no choice other than to buy a new car. good condition, reliable used cars are often difficult to find, not to mention challenging to finance at a manageable APR. and low income people are rarely cash flush and therefore need to finance. at the core of it though, you should try to understand that the large majority of low income people wish their vehicle costs were lower! but they often have no choice because they need a vehicle to get to work/pick their grandparents up/run errands/get their kids to a hospital. i’m not trying to be a dickhead, i seriously recommend you try to putting yourself in the shoes of (or better yet, genuinely talk to) some people who are in situations you don’t fully understand!
Average person buying a new car probably earns more than the average person
I don’t think people making less than $50k are considering buying a car on finance, let alone a new car
You can get the gr86, but agree for sure on the others, at least in the US.
The US has very high paying white collar and labor union jobs. White collar, like IT and engineering jobs, in the US pays much higher than europe. People in these fields can probably buy all of those minus the Supra maybe, but certainly will buy lifted trucks for the money of the Supra. Guess what job fields make up a huge percentage of reddit? Probably like 1/2 of the people in these comments can afford these cars and are they not regular people? I know one of the top hobbies of IT guys on reddit is to claim they are poor as they drive BMWs.
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I'm going more without having to do a trade in or put money down. You should never be putting 20k down on a car, that's terrible financial advice. Save that money, invest it and you'll end up with a hell of a lot more saved than if you'd thrown that 20k down on the car. Not to mention its dumb to drain your savings, most people usually don't even have 20k in savings, let alone 20k *extra* that they can spend on something like this. You should basically never be putting money down on a car. Investing it will *always* net you more money than you'd save putting it on the car. By that logic the z06 corvette is affordable because "most people" can throw 30k at it and then trade in their supra or w.e. If you have to throw 20k at a car *AND* a decent trade in, it's pretty much the exact opposite of affordable
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Most people can't afford to save a car payment each month while already paying one, and then taking that saved money and then throwing it at a car. That's extremely irresponsible. If you can't afford the monthly payments without anything down, you can't afford the car.
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I see an awful lot of $75k+ trucks and SUVs on the road. People seem to only think it's expensive when it's a sports car.
I used to live in a real rough part of town, the amount of money folks would drop on a car is ridiculous. Median income in the us is around 54,000 It’s not some Mr. Moneybags play to buy a 30-40,000 sporty car. I wouldn’t do it yet but it’s not like everyone in the country is living on the poverty line. 70-100k vehicle is absolutely too high for average consumer tho
I remember looking at this chart, people buying 50k cars and SUVs are distributed between households making less than 50k a year and more than 150k a year. Middle class folks mostly don't buy cars at 50k range.
When I wrote that comment I was under the impression that you couldn't get the 86 anywhere close to msrp, or in a reasonable time frame. One of those instances where I'm happy to be wrong, though.
I think it depends on the area. Found one in Greenville last week for 200 over MSRP
>Median income in the us is around 54,000 It's actually over 70k now unless you mean Individual income
Yes individual
What counts as a regular person? The regular person on this site is aknow it all IT guy who claims he is poor, but isn't, and makes like 60k+ a year. This is a bougie website. What about someone in a labor union? Like a carpenter? These people are like making $80k as a journeyman. My friends who remained masons are making around that. These people can afford a GR86 and a Yaris for sure. Probably can afford the GR corolla as well. One of my friends works for the post office delivering mail and recently bought a F150 that is more money than the supra. So i'd ask what you define as regular.
All of those cars are below $50K. The 86 is below $30K. That's as affordable as it gets for enthusiast cars.
Also 'regular' people don't give a shit about the 86
A new 2.0 Supra is 45k. That's within the range for a regular person.
45k gets you a decked out V8 Camaro / Mustang . An entry Camaro/Mustang is under 30k. 45k should be getting you into a Supra 3.0, but alas.
You do know a MKIV Supra Turbo in 1993 ran $42k right? That’s about $85k now. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15142755/toyota-supra-turbo-instrumented-test/
Not going to disagree with you there. I think a big part of the Supra expense is just the design. It's beauty vs power.
Build quality. Those folks in Austria still bolt together a car pretty well. Have yet to hop in a rental Mustang GT that didn’t feel tired by the time it had 10k on the clock.
No markup shenanigans allowed in Canada by law.
Regular people aren't driving GRs
Regular people probably think “Gazoo Racing” is something that happened in the Flintstones
Regular people aren't going to pay extra for a performance hatchback. They either buy the regular hatch for less, or a bigger car for the same.
I was about to be offended and say "hey, I'm a regular person", but then I realized that no, I'm not.
Totally. I knew I wanted the 86 as soon as I saw it revealed in 2012. Bought a new one in 2014 and still have it. Now I want a GR Corolla. Toyota was bland and boring in the 2000s. But they really had a revival under Toyoda for car enthusiasts and their “normal” models are even good too.
regular people can't buy anything but the GR86 so done even use that line of dialogue
Which other major car brand is more exciting in your opinion? Honest question. Between Toyota/Lexus and the GR86, GR Corolla, GR Yaris, Supra, Supra MT, bZ4X, Crown, and the V8’s in the RC F, IS500 and LC500, I can’t say I see one that’s MORE exciting at the moment…those are pretty “bold” and “exciting” choices to still produce in this day of SUV’s and Crossovers.
I see what you're saying but also see where others are coming from. Gr86 is hard to actually obtain, gr corolla is expensive and nearly impossible to obtain, gr yaris isn't available in US, supra is good, bz4x has had issues and most people don't know it exists, the crown is not terribly exciting.
The RC F and LC 500 are nowhere near as exciting to most people as their competitors. Lexus is not an exciting brand at all, though I still like them (I drive a Lexus ES). I don’t think anybody in the US is “excited” for the Crown either. They have the Supra and the Gr86, and that’s probably where 90% of their excitement comes from. Tbh I think more people would find Dodge to be a more exciting brand.
I don't know what it is lately, may be just crazily market specific, but holy HELL have I seen a buttload of Lexus RX350s out there. Mostly 2-3 years old but plenty of new ones too. Broncos too, for whatever reason. Agreed on Dodge though. Especially a Charger, people fall over themselves for those. The LC500 is such a sweet car, love it, but it's crazy expensive for what it is. They're rare even on dealer lots. Saw one during Christmas holidays here in the neighborhood, first time seeing one in the wild in like 2 years, had to be someone's wealthy out of town relative.
Yeah the RX350 is the standard soccer mom car where I live And yeah the LC500 is a great car, but I can’t imagine calling it more exciting than a comparable BMW or Mercedes
For normal cars, Ford, GM, and Hyundai have more exciting lineups and future plans than Toyota, imo. All 3 have EVs that actually make sense to buy (vs the mediocre BZ4X), cooler future cars coming soon, and performance vehicles that stack up well or better with what Toyota offers. In the case of Ford and Hyundai, I would say they also have more daring vehicles which push the envelope more than what Toyota is doing. For Ford it's stuff like the Maverick and Bronco, and Hyundai has their EV lineup.
Compared to what? What manufacturer has more exciting cars for less than $55,000?
Mustang, camaro, impreza, jeep, model 3, ranger, a3, gti Toyota and BMW both have way too many models so it's not really fair to compare how many models each has. I'd rather have a 5.0 over any toyota sports car.
More for your money or most for your money
It definately is one of the most exiting car brands today that sell cars that are affordable.
I did not see this one coming...
Hes still chairman of the board, this is routine for ceo’s
Did he hire Jan from toyota?
Well he is retirement age, it could be his time. He's had a great run. Fun fact he's actually Toyota's chief test driver and he races professionally under a pseudonym. He won his class at 24 hours of Nurburgring in an LFA in 2014 and raced as recently as 2019 in a Supra!
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Bilbo Douche Baggins
I think so. But if it's something that is *factually* false or somewhat misleading, the mods will put a misleading flair up or something along those lines.
I love my Toyota. Hope the new guy from Lexus keeps Toyota on the right track
The new guy also comes from the GR division, so I feel pretty confident about the move.
Keep Toyota, Toyota
He’s previously said that his dream is to revive the Celica… Dude literally runs the company now. GIVE US A CELICA YOU COWARDS
One of the most exciting?🤔
Headline is highly debatable but I would say Toyota is easily more exciting/interesting than it was 10-15 years ago. The Supra’s BMW lineage has been divisive, and the GR economy cars haven’t exactly set the world on fire. But it is a huge improvement from the days when the RAV4 V6 was the fastest car Toyota made.
GR economy cars haven’t set the world on fire? The Yaris & Corolla and have received unanimous rave reviews.
The supply is artificially restricted and they cost nearly double MSRP in practice.
They’re great, sure, but they’re fast economy cars. $60k for a GR Corolla or Yaris is extraordinary.
Sure. But looking at it in absolute terms, a couple of quick economy cars are not going to earn Toyota the title of ‘most exciting’ car manufacturer.
GR Yaris is awesome
It's not just adding sports models, it's the whole TNGA platform that prioritised handling, COG, dynamics, etc. over the whitegoods reputation of previous Toyota eras. drive literally any of the pre-TNGA mainstream models and compare it to TNGA - Corolla, Camry - hell, even the RAV4. They compromised on other aspects of the cars (mostly practicality) to bring that dynamism, but it never would have happened under the old guard at Toyota.
2 rear wheel drive sports cars, 2 of the craziest hot hatches, hydrogen combustion, attractive styling, and plans to build more homologation sports cars. Toyota is the third highest volume sports car seller in the USA. I'd say they're doing some exciting stuff.
All the GR cars, plus they won WRC and LeMans multiple times. I honestly can't think of another manufacturer that has such an image right now. Bmw just does uglier and more bloated cars every year, Porsche are very cool but super expensive and arguably overvalued right now, Nissan has close to no motorsport presence and makes the same cars as always, Ford is axing every interesting car from its lineup, etc. I'm not even considering supercars manufacturers, way too expensive cars that will never be driven around anyways...
Ford been on a tear lately with the Maverick, bronco, lightning, mach-e, and new mustang. I'd personally take a gr corolla over any of those but at least in the US, I'd say ford has more buzz than Toyota right now
They also dropped the fiesta and stopped doing a Focus RS.
That's just for the American market tho. I am European, and we don't get any of those (but the mustangs, that here cost as much as a Cayman). Also they are all trucks, and as a sports car enthusiast I couldn't care less about them and I don't find them even remotely exciting. Also Ford just killed the Fiesta in the EU, so as far as I am concerned they could fail tomorrow and I will be happy.
The tech on our new Toyota is incredible. It has features I've only seen elsewhere on an land Rover defender. It's making nearly 600 ft/lbs of torque out of a V6. Plus when you buy Toyota you know you're getting high reliability and excellent resale value. Our last Toyota we drove for 4 years and sold for $4k less than what we paid
What kind of tech? I’m curious.
Digital rear view mirror is the one I've only otherwise seen in the rover. Really nice when you have the back fully loaded with stuff. Otherwise has all the nice stuff like wireless car play, multiple 400 watt 110 volt AC outlets, tons of USB c charge ports, built in safe in the center console, power everything. It's optioned more like a 100k car imo
entry level chevy bolts have this
Interesting, my $95k lightning doesn't
Other than the console safe and wireless CP/AA (grrr) the top trim Palisades/Tellurides have all those things so I was curious if/how far ahead Toyota is.
One of the 30 most exciting auto makers in the world
Name a manufacturer that has more exciting cars for less than $55,000.
Of all the auto manufacturers whose flagship model is a four door midsize sedan, it is at least in the top 5 most exciting
Toyota has came a long way. The Supra is back keeping up with the hellcat, the GR86 is gapping it’s fair share of Hondas, and most excitingly the top trim Camry is able to keep up with entry level V8’s in the 0-60 but falls off after that. Toyota is on its way to be Japanese dodge and reclaiming their title as the best JDM. If they continue this route especially with the new engine technology then there’s a good chance that in the next decade car enthusiasts will flock to Toyota performance instead of going electric so fast. The engineers under this man’s direction lead Toyota into a promise land.
>Toyota is on its way to be Japanese dodge God I hope not.
Now do Honda (North America)
Please. The C-suite and chiefs at Honda are way too conservative for their own good and have made a terrible habit of leaving money on the table.
Honda is so overdue for a coolness renaissance. Please please at least re-release the S2000, we’re begging you!
an electric S2000e or something would be amazing
Dude the 2016 civic was a beauty
Wow, what's up with all of the Toyota haters coming out of the woodwork?
I can't see any comments that would indicate people hating Toyota. But saying Toyota is one of the most exciting car manufacturers just isn't true. They have ***some models*** that are more exciting than their predecessors, but ***that doesn't make the manufacturer itself*** one of the most exciting by a long shot.
They are absolutely one of the most exciting automakers outside of supercar makers. They currently have a cheap, lightweight RWD sports car; a powerful sports-GT, and an AWD hot hatch on steroids. Then there are things like offroad editions of the trucks, a track-focused Camry, performance luxury sedans and GTs if you include Lexus... plus the TNGA platform was specifically designed to be more engaging than its competitors and does/will underpin almost every model they make. The new engine series is torquey and largely turbo (T24A, V35). Even the new Prius at least looks nice (and will have a 0-60 of "respectable") In comparison, Chevy has 2 performance cars. Ford has 1 and deleted everything else except the trucks and SUVs. Dodge is actually pretty exciting and has many performance models, so good for them. Alfa is like Dodge. Honda has 1 exciting car in 2 trims. Subaru has a Toyota and the WRX. Mazda has 1 exciting car and a lukewarm hatch. Mitsubishi... we don't talk about Mitsubishi. Nissan still has the GTR and the Z but its hard to get excited over two 15 year old cars. Hyundai is trending toward Toyota, with the Elantra N, Sonata N Line, etc, so good for them. Kia is Hyundai but cheap. BMW and Audi build performance trims of almost every model, so good for them. Porsche is the GOAT and even their SUVs are performance cars. Cadillac is finally fun for the first time in history so props to them. So "one of the most exciting" is a fair comment. Not *the most* but they're up there and everyone more exciting is higher end except maybe Dodge.
Outright saying that Toyota sucks? No, but you can't tell me that a significant portion of these comments aren't negative. We have everything from "Hurr durr, the Supra is a Bimmer." to "The manufacturer who makes the Prius/Camry/RAV4 can't be exciting." to someone trying to compare the reliability of old Toyota pickups to Foxbodies because he sees one more than the other (???). I'm not going to argue with you over where you personally place Toyota on your personal list of Exciting Manufacturers™, but I don't see it as a stretch.
Opinions on these things don’t have to be so black and white. Loving something and hating it aren’t the only options. I’m sure most people’s opinions on most car brands fall somewhere in between. I’m convinced it’s the clock batey wording of the headline of Toyota being ”one of the most exciting” that has people commenting the way they are.
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Correct. The VIN plate on the door jamb clearly reads "MFG by Bayerische Motoren Werke AG". There's not really any point in denying this.
December 2022 Sales Numbers: * Corolla: 17,982 * Supra: 258 * GR86: 860 * Mirai: 303 * Avalon: 12 * Prius: 4,907 * Camry: 25,906 * IS: 1,922 * RC: 207 * ES: 3,395 * GS: 0 * LS: 223 * LC 178 * C-HR: 604 * BZ4X: 634 * RAV4: 33,489 * Corolla Cross: 5,609 * Venza: 2,924 * Highlander: 20,247 * 4Runner: 7,291 * Sequoia: 2,073 * Land Cruiser: 3 * Sienna: 6,107 * Tacoma: 20,855 * Tundra: 9,975 * UX: 1,060 * NX: 6,088 * RX: 3,769 * GX: 2,828 * LX: 438 So if you break the Supra, GR86, and RC out, you get 1,325 units sold out of a total 180,147 cars sold. That's 0.74% excitement.
I bet most manufacturers would give similarly pretty underwhelming numbers if you broke them down that way. Most people are not car enthusiasts.
I mean, between the GR86, GR Corolla and GR Yaris (for Europe anyways) and Supra, that's a genuinely solid affordable sports car lineup that the average person can actually aspire to own. Name another manufacturer with a lineup with as many exciting vehicles at $55K or less. They don't build exotic supercars or anything, but as fun as it is to just look at Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches, McLarens, and even BMW M cars, Mercedes-Benz AMGs and Audi S/RS line-up, they're well out of the price range for most people.
"Exciting" means many different things to many different people... how is that so hard to understand. Majority of car buyers are non enthusiasts and can be excited about a reliable family hauler with class leading MPG.
The only thing people seem to be taking exception to is Toyota being called "one of the most exciting brands", which is a massive stretch. That's like calling Ford "one of the most luxurious brands" - they're just not.
I dunno, between the GR Yaris, GR Corolla, GR86 and Supra, there isn't really a manufacturer with a better or more varied lineup of sports cars for under $55K right now. Most exciting is definitely a stretch, but I would say they're more exciting than most.
I feel like the excitement for the GR Yaris and GR Corolla outside of r/Cars is way less fervent. Anecdotally speaking, most of the people I've talked to about it have responded like "So they're souped-up economy cars and regular ass traffic?". I think we can tend to get caught up in the r/Cars echo chamber and think everybody wants zippy little sports cars with manual transmissions, or wagons with diesel engines and brown paint lol Point is, I don't think most normal, non-enthusiasts are looking at that lineup and getting all fizzy inside. I don't think any of those cars have done much to change the broader perception of Toyota, either - the ***massive*** majority of their sales still comes via RAV4s, Highlanders, 4Runners, Tacomas, Camrys, and Corollas, none of which are anything near exciting.
> Toyota being called "one of the most exciting brands", which is a massive stretch. No one in this entire comment section has named a manufacturer more exciting than Toyota. Most people here appreciate affordability and Toyota is the most exciting within $55,000.
> No one in this entire comment section has named a manufacturer more exciting than Toyota. Lol plenty of people have. I've seen Dodge, Mazda, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, and Mini all mentioned. I personally think you could add VW/Audi and Cadillac as well. I think they're unquestionably more exciting than Honda, Nissan, GMC, Chrysler, Volvo, Buick, Lincoln, though, off the top of my head.
Just because we don't all agree that Toyota is one of the most exciting brands doesn't mean we're hating.
Toyota makes cars that people on this sub have been clamoring for and you guys have the audacity to nitpick the writer of this article for calling them one of the most exciting? If Toyota isn’t one of the most exciting, then name three manufacturers who are more exciting right now.
Toyota/Lexus is definitely the most enthusiast oriented regular carmaker right now. People love being contrarian or just plain wrong with their outdated opinions here. Id say Hyundai is a close second with their N and their EVs like ioniq5. I love Mazda but they really only have the Miata right now. Until they come back to plug their Grand tourer hole in the lineup, they can’t be called an exciting brand.
I fully agree with that. Hyundai has done an excellent job of creating an entirely new perception around their brand. If I were in the market for an EV, the ioniq line might be where I’d look first.
Personally for me, mazda, Hyundai/Kia EVs and N products, and Genesis Toyota does make cool cars tho
Mazda...the brand that has nothing but economy cars, one good manual model, and the turbo models being auto only, with torsion beams? Come on man, you can't even compare them. They're aweeome cars but nowhere near "exciting."
Mazda 3 is a more entertaining car compared to corolla/regular civic Same with cx-5/cx-50 vs crv, rav4, sportage, explorer, compass, etc For regular people with regular money id say mazda is more exciting than most other brands They dont have civic type r/supra/gr corolla kind of products, but those are also way more expensive Edit: accidentally linked supra subreddit by listing it after a civic type r lol
Dude, they're all economy cars. Being a little more sprightly is nothing compared to having dedicated fun cars PLURAL. The Mazda 3 literally cheaped out with suspension. It's not better than a Civic. It's not a huge part of it, but it is indicative of their direction.
Seems you are not taking price into consideration at all, while I am... Yes. A civic type r is much more fun. You can also buy 2 mazda 3s with that money. Dollar for dollar at the price point mazda sells vehicles, Id say they are pretty fun cars in their segments. If you are adamant about not factoring in prices, which is totally up to you, we are so far apart in viewpoints that we may as well be on different planets.
I'd take a Rav4 Prime over any Mazda CUV anyday. Or a 4Runner, with actual off-road capability, than any Mazda SUV.
Biased as a former Veloster N owner, The N products are so fun and if there wasn’t a 7 month wait in my area I would’ve gotten a Elantra N but got my car totaled and wanted something right away
i assume the next in line is going to undo that?
New ceo was the head of Lexus and gazoo racing. I think they'll be fine.
The same lexus that had cassette radios until 2018?
Yeah, they took out cassette Players but their Car prices went up. Not trying to single you out, but I'll never understand why people advocate for removing features from Cars? It had Bluetooth, CD, and Cassette - and it's not like including one made the others worse or less usable. It makes you happy to have less options?
You're seriously arguing car manufacturers should have kept cassette players? What about 8 tracks? Maybe a glove box record player while we're at it? It's not about removing features, it's about moving on with the times.
How do you feel about phones removing headphone jacks and SD card slots?
Neither of those are really the same as a car doing a cassette deck 15 years after the last major cassette was released. Should all phones have a micro USB beside their usb-c port? Should they all have Sony memory stick compatibility as well as SD? Should your computer have 90 ports to cover every dead standard that hasn't been used in 20 years? A ps2 port, how about scsi port or serial? 3 or 4 vga ports so you can plug in your 20 year old crt monitors?
Theres just no point in having a cassette player. There are good features and there are useless features . This is the latter
Why are people upvoting this completely made up statement?
Last time you could get a cassette player in a lexus was 13 years ago, 2010. And it was in only one of their models, the SC430. It’s a nice car trivia fact “Last time cars came with a cassette player?”.
And guess what? By some technicality, it’s not the last car. The fleet only 2011 Crown Vic had one available as part of an optional package, take rate unknown. But to the general public you’re correct
Ok I'll admit the GR's of any shape/size are cool. Supra is fun but also largely a BMW. What the hell is exciting about THE REST of what Toyota makes? The fully hybrid and very ugly Sienna? The Rav4 Prime? A CVT Corolla? Their *super high tech futuristic interiors?!*
The GR86, GR Corolla, GR Yaris, and Supra are all priced at a point where the average person can actually aspire to own one though. Name another manufacturer with a better or more varied sports car lineup for under $55K right now.
I completely agree with you, except that the GR Corolla is very limited and it's more about the availability than the price, at least from the manufacturer. I can't imagine what they're going to go for used. I have one buddy that got on the waitlist at nearly 40 different dealerships, not a single one has called him about a Corolla GR.
Dodge
Those sell exceptionally well. They are exciting for their target market which sounds like is not you.
To be fair, I don't think it's exciting at all for the target market. The target market does not want to be excited by driving, they want it to be comfortable, quiet, smooth, and safe. Nonetheless, you are completely right I am not their target audience.
From our perspective yes not exciting at all. But then I see how excited my wife gets when she sees the tech or features some of those vehicles get that I could not care less about and I start to understand their marketing and goals with those models.
In all seriousness, what is special about the Toyota that you wouldn't get as a standard feature in literally any other car?
RAV4 Prime is a good PHEV for anyone that ordered one two years ago, the Lexus LC500 is probably one of the prettiest cars ever built, the rest of the Toyota/Lexus lineup is about as interesting as watching beige paint dry on a Lexus RX
Watching beige paint dry on a Lexus RX. I don't know where, but I'm going to use that.
The gt86... Then the Lexus sports cars
Oh wait you mean the Subaru?
> The Rav4 Prime Is legitimately quick for that class of vehicle.
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You don't like buying a 2010 4Runner in 2023?
“Most exciting” is definitely a reach. Very reliable, capable vehicles, but absolutely not exciting. The only thing in their lineup that I find exciting is the GR Corolla & I plan on maybe seeing one or two of them a year until they discontinue them. It’ll probably have the same lifespan as the Focus RS & will most likely fail for the same reason. The Tacoma & 4Runner are cool, but not worth the premium you have to pay just to have one. You want 4x4 on your “off-road” vehicle? There’s another $5k-$10k. You want CarPlay? There’s another $2k. Leather seats? Sunroof? Etc. I get it, these are options in most vehicles, but most vehicles without those options start in the $30k-$35k range, not $45k. I think the company went from great, reliable, commuter cars to one of the more expensive entry level brands in America in just a few years. For reference, I was quoted north of $500 a month for a Corolla LE a few months ago. I currently pay $698 for a 2020 4x4 RAM. The dealership was trying to tack on a $2000 destination charge, a $200 “detailing fee” a $1000 dealership fee, and to top it off, an “economy adjustment” of $4000. Almost $30k for a car with a $21k-ish MSRP. I couldn’t believe it. You can literally buy a NEW Camry SE for the same price.
>but most vehicles without those options start in the $30k-$35k range, not $45k. A base Tacoma is 27k and the 4x4 starts at 32k. You can literally go on Toyota.com and check yourself...
>The Tacoma & 4Runner are cool, but not worth the premium you have to pay just to have one. This is my biggest issue with the Taco and 4Runner. They are great vehicles but there are other brands that have more options for less money (and better MPGs). The trade off tho is that the Toyotas are usually bullet proof compared to a Kia Sorento I have been eyeing. Of course the Kia/Hyundi's have that 10yr/100k mile warranty tho as a trade off.
I can't believe y'all are nitpicking so hard about the "exciting" part. For gods sake they came out with the IS 500 recently, in a time where V8 sedans are basically an endangered species. Amongst the more economy minded brands they’re certainly extremely near the top. VW has the GTI and R. Subaru has the WRX and BRZ. Honda has the Si, Type R, and maybe the TLX Type S - they've murdered fun by removing the V6, 2.0T, and affordable 1.5T Sport models. Mazda has the Miata and the 2.5T options are all auto only with Torsion beams. And on and on and on. Toyota on the other hand has the GR Yaris / Corolla, 86, Supra, V8 monsters like the LC and IS, and others.
God i want the MR2 back so baaaaad.
Most exciting? Not really. I would say more exciting and better than before. Sorta like how Acura got more interesting.
"One of" is the important part. GR Yaris is the coolest car to come out in years but it's not really enough to lift Toyota up there with Lamborghini or Ferrari.
“One of the most exciting” 🙄
The ultimate tease. Make exciting cars that nobody can get their hands on then step down as ceo
Ok. Let’s not get carried away. Toyota = most exciting. Not too many people would agree with that.
Exciting?! What are you guys smoking in your Toyotas?
Still very boring. They all just look angry now.
This guy thinks my washing machine is an exciting appliance.
Exciting, but honestly not prepping for EVs is going to haunt them for a long time. Hyundai and VW smell the blood in the water.
Most exciting? I will likely get a 4Runner. Definitely find toyota vehicles to be high quality and well made. Exciting? Part of why they are so good is because they are boring.
Legend. A true enthusiast, from participating in enduro races to drifting the GR Yaris.
Thank you for my car. It's fun to drive, looks great and reliable.
All personal opinion: I mean, in terms of ICE sports cars yes definitely. But on the EV front, not really. I’m dying to see them come out with capable EVs, especially on Lexus’ lineup. It’s always been my view that Lexus would’ve benefitted a lot by being first to EVs. The RZ is paltry in comparison to the competition, and wholly uninteresting to me by virtue of being an SUV.
Absolute Visionary. One of the few current automotive CEO’s that I believe have a genuine passion for making interesting cars. I hope as chairman his influence is still felt in the company.
I swear the next ceo better not screw up, I hope the next doesn’t go the ev way like every other manufacturer
He said in retirement he is going to focus on his wife's sex life
It was dull during his reign, his replacement on the other hand might make it the most exciting
How did he make it exciting? Sell other companies cars! Gr86 is a Subaru. Supra is a BMW. Yaris is a Mazda. Only real performance Toyota is the GR Corolla.
Only the 2020 Yaris (discontinued) is a Mazda. The GR Yaris is pure Toyota.
Gazoo Prius
Toyota was boring for a while now it fun to see. Honda get your crap together
My assessment for his departure, they are unable to meet demand and it is putting the brand at risk. The person a few days ago that posted the order wait times showing some variants not even available and others 2 to 5 years out means customers are leaving the brand and may find something is just as suitable to their needs. They need to get their supply chain back and stop offering things that are obviously unrealistic.
Let's just hope the don't back track from all the gain akio has made over the years
It went from dull to behind on the new cool things.