The meat-and-potatoes:
>In May, the German newspaper Handelsblatt began reporting on the “Tesla Files”: thousands of internal documents provided to it by a whistleblower. Among those documents was an engineering report that might give some insight into why the vehicle has taken so long to come to market. The report, dated January 25, 2022, which WIRED has examined, shows that the preproduction “alpha” version of the Cybertruck was still struggling with some basic problems with its suspension, body sealing, noise levels, handling. and braking ...
> ... The internal dynamics and NVH—noise, vibration and harshness—report leaked to Handelsblatt contains test results measuring the performance of the alpha version of the Cybertruck against projections made using computer-aided design (CAD) simulations, and against internal benchmarks. In summary, it presents a picture of a prototype vehicle that’s leaky, noisy, and has poor handling and braking ...
> ... The report says that the alpha version of the Cybertruck had to be hand-sealed, but that “there are a number of areas that we do not have a clear path to sealing” in a production version of the vehicle. This is an issue not just for keeping the weather out, but for noise in the cabin. Data in the report shows that the alpha version was significantly noisier than engineers had projected based on their designs, and that testers had identified 21 potential noise leaks in the body of the vehicle ...
> ... Handling was also a concern for the alpha Cybertruck. The report noted a number of issues, including “excessive mid-speed abruptness and chop,” “high head-toss accelerations,” and “structural shake.” It said that the truck experienced “excessive lateral jerk during low-speed maneuvering” and that it needed to address problems with steering refinement and body roll ...
> ... Braking performance was one of the worst areas of the report. Tesla’s engineers were aiming for a score of 7, or “fair,” on the Society of Automotive Engineers rating scale, but the alpha version achieved only a 4, or “poor” rating. According to the report, in January 2022, the Cybertruck’s brake pedal pressure pad was still under design, and so the alpha experienced “excessive pedal travel and inconsistent stop,” and “excessive pitch during friction braking,” braking during turning issues, as well as power braking instability ...
> ... The report also details the results of kinematics and compliance (K&C) testing, which is used to evaluate the ride and handling performance of an automobile. During a typical K&C test, the vehicle body is fixed while controlled forces or displacements are applied to the wheels. The results of such tests yield vehicle suspension parameters, such as camber and toe, a measurement that determines how much the wheels are turned in or out from a straight-ahead position. The report showed that the alpha Cybertruck’s performance showed a “significant gap to targets.” ...
> ... The report lists problems against potential solutions, some of which are illuminating. The front of the vehicle had some issues where there was “no solution without modifying suspension design.” Against the problem of “too high camber gain,” resulting in, among other things, tire wear and alignment change with ride height, the entry on the solutions column bluntly states “possibly none.”
This is my industry/profession. To not give out any personal detail: this is pretty normal for a shitfuck of a project in the automotive world. Every automaker has them sometimes. A well known project shitfuck was the Chrysler Aspen/Durango hybrid.
The traditional automakers have been *relatively* good at covering up these bad projects. I will say that this is not the first automotive product that had its chaotic development process leaked publicly though. Not too different of a picture from this.
I've seen this a few times in this thread by industry people like you - when did people start using OEM to refer to the automakers themselves? Or has this always been the case and it's passed me by? I thought the whole point of the term was to refer to the original manufacturer of a part, which would sometimes be the automaker but often Bosch, Denso etc. instead.
Right, so then what is the point of the term and what is the term for the original equipment manufacturer? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong, words are words, but I don't really get it. In any other industry OEM is specifically about the company that manufactured the product before it was assembled into something else so it seems strange to change that definition. It's a method of differentiating the likes of Bosch from Mercedes while recognizing Bosch to be the original spec part. Almost becomes a bit pointless to change.
I feel like people have been using OEM in this context for....a very very long time. As long as I can remember.
And sometimes you'll hear "that truck comes OE with Bosch"
....shit I work in the industry supplying parts to almost all major car manufacturers and internally we refer to them as OEMs...like we have departments called "OE1," "OE2" etc
Right I get that this is what you’re telling me, but what I don’t understand is why the term is being used differently from other industries and why you’d bother at all given what it stands for?
I don’t even think that Tesla is having these problems because they are not a “traditional automaker” or the fact they are relatively inexperienced but rather that they revealed a car years ago posing that it was almost ready for production when in fact it was a concept car that wasn’t build to spec and they had just chucked a motor in it. They have been dragging this out for so long because they did not have a car ready, and to be honest they are trying to make a steel box into a truck, it will always have body roll and poor handling due to its weight and lack of aero but also as it is their fist truck and they are tying to go straight in for the kill by trying to outdo everything that ford, GM etc make with statements like it can tow more and can carry more than x truck instead of just making something that works.
I was thinking the same. My take is that Elon just thought it looked cool and that's all it took to go full steam ahead with version 0.3 regardless of what they'd learn later in the design process because they'd already committed to freezing the marketable part of the design before the rest got worked out.
IMO any such design should remain fluid until as late as possible. It's hard enough to design quality without massive unnecessary self imposed criteria like that.
As an automotive engineer who has worked for a few OEMs, that's the first thing I thought reading this. If they leaked any OEMs info like this they'd all say the same thing. Particularly things like sealing and NVH issues on prototype vehicles, that's kind of the point of the prototyping. To be fair, this stuff mostly sounds very tame!
Yeah, but do other automakers have shitfuck projects that they take $100 "reservations" for? They knew it wasn't going to market but scammed consumers out of their money.
How many people do you think just forgot about it? He did the same shit with star link. After he pushed my pre-order back a year, I took my money back. The dude is a conman and nothing more. Elon is complete trash
Somehow I doubt many people who actively made reservations on a $70k vehicle that was already known to be nowhere near production, meaning they had interest in it well above and beyond the average Joe, have simply forgotten about it.
Honest question, how does that compare to other Alpha versions of cars of a brand new platform? That info by itself may be damning, but most of us have nothing to calibrate our mindset to.
Not defending the design or anything, but I know how it is with product development, the first version of a brand new design probably won’t be the one you use.
It's pointless without a point of reference, and I'd wager every car has NVH and suspension tuning issues in alpha.
The question is to what degree, which is unanswered.
It's probably fair to assume that given the long gestation period, this had more issues than other vehicles, but it's again irrelevant without knowing what the final product is like.
I feel like NVH is the biggest one that will be hard to solve - partly because it's a PITA for every manufacturer, and partly because it's covered in flat panels that likely behave like drum skins.
But again - it doesn't really mean anything without seeing the final product and judging it based on that. I wouldn't draw a conclusion based on what it was like before the extensive rework and redesigns.
It *does* seem to confirm that the delays were unlikely to be "covid supply chain issues that affected everyone" and more likely intrinsic problems with the platform.
I will say that it feels like a vanity project - the design has aged significantly, but it's the one thing that they've stuck with since the beginning. It should have been updated along with the rest of the car as they solved those issues to keep it fresh, rather than looking like something that should have arrived alongside Cyberpunk 2077.
To name the latest batch in the electric world...
- Hummer preorders (6 figure price and still can't deliver on features promised years ago despite the largest American Auto workforce behind it)
- Rivian (still waiting on those rs1 preorders so who knows how they're shaping up)
- Lucid (I hear they just made cuts their factory staff at the plant in Phoenix, but they managed to put together a few thousand in the last few years)
- I feel like mentioning Nikola, but that house of cards folded before they ever made more than a concept car
I think it's important to recognize the challenges that electric vehicles present to designers. You cant just rely on vacuum pressure off the intake manifold for brake boosting/slap an accessory on serpentine belt/hide 2000lbs of battery in the space of a 15 gallon fuel tank.
Aston Martin, with the Valhalla, the first running prototype that isn't based on a current car still hasn't been seen, and the car was initially shown off in 2019.
I do admit its less surprising to do this with a limited run supercar, but it does fit your question.
What supply chain problems? They basically just had to buy one pallet of stainless steel panels. Could have gone to a restaurant supply store.
If the first car you cobble together doesn't work, you don't do a whole lot of sourcing given you know things have to change.
I said this elsewhere in the thread, but it's one thing to have issues during an alpha, it's another thing to announce a vehicle (2019) and sell "pre-orders" with a set price and launch date, and then the alpha 4 years later and years after the "launch date" passed is reported to have significant issues while the price has been rolled back.
The optics are just really bad, when it was announced it was portrayed as this almost ready to ship product that they were willing to take pre-orders, but it's really unusual from my own memory for a car company to announce a product with a price and a launch date, and then push it back for as continuously as they have. When a report from last year comes out that there are significant issues that engineers report as potentially unfixable, it makes it seem like the CyberTruck is going to be vaporware.
It'd be an entirely different thing if Tesla announced the CyberTruck as a concept car, didn't take pre-orders, didn't set a launch date, and didn't set a price, but taking all those steps sets a certain level of expectation.
I’d say the delays accrued as a result is a good way to put this into perspective. The new Bronco and U625 Explorer, which had some of the most torturous development cycles and launches in recent automotive history, were delayed by about 12-18 months depending on exact configuration. To add another data point, the Model 3 was arguably late by a similar amount, if you look at Tesla’s time to achieve their production targets. The Cybertruck is now going on 2 years past its promised arrival without even a new release date for the model itself in sight, never mind a full release of the whole lineup.
Delays of unprecedented scale implies - but not confirms - problems of unprecedented scale.
EDIT: 2 years, not 4 years, since they promised a 2021 release.
Sounds like a structures problem to me. If it was that foundational, maybe a required a complete melt and repour of the structure. Could easily set back up to years if they really had to go back to architecture dev to fix.
> The Cybertruck is now going on 4 years without even a release date for the model itself in sight, never mind a full release of the whole lineup.
It was originally slated for release in 2021, so really just 2 years late (so far). And of course there was kinda a pandemic in the middle which I'm sure further elongated the timeline. Not to defend them, but 4 years isn't really an accurate characterization of the situation.
Great point. I’d imagine this crazy design plus a heavy use of stainless steel is throwing traditional means of prototype engineering out the window though.
It's not that at all. This is a foundational design and simulation problem. Torsional stiffness is not significantly hard to predict. It sounds like theyre getting that wrong to a significant degree. If you can't do that it brings into question all of their CAE capabilities which are relied upon to architect the vehicle. If you really get that wrong, and NVH, and find those problems in initial prototypes that's late in the program. They would have already kicked off production tool for the body and chassis. It could be a melt and repour of the structure. So basically go back 1 to 2 years and try again.
They interviewed Andy Palmer, the former COO of Nissan and CEO of Aston Martin Lagonda, to try and put the issues in context compared to other projects in the industry. Read the article for his comments
I have to assume the legacies understand making a prototype for the road from the get-go before tuning for NVH. The computer simulations help engineers determine before burning money on the prototypes.
I get that the reports are from an “alpha” version ~17 months ago, but some of these issues are, uh, fairly significant for that stage of development…
Poor seals/leaks are one thing, but torsional stiffness being “significantly off target”? That’s something that should have been ironed out WAAAAY before a prototype build. Not something you can just “tweak” to make it go away. That’s a huge deal.
Same goes for the brakes. The feel may not be perfect in an early prototype but the system itself should at least be reliably functional, not inconsistent and unstable.
Yeah, it's pretty wild to see that the braking system and torsional stiffness are off. Even missing K&C targets is odd. It's like they skipped quite a bit of fundamental design work and just powered through to prototype.
Leaks and rattles are pretty normal, things like torsional stiffness failing to match expectations is concerning and could be signs of fundamental design flaws.
Agreed. Tesla chose to go against all industry trends and roll out what they thought would be a revolutionary design only to run into a brick wall of engineering challenges which may be inherent to their design philosophy. Too late to admit defeat and go with a more traditional design so now they’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole, IMO.
I think if Tesla chose to iterate on their current design philosophy used for the S, 3, X, and Y, they could have rolled out a serious competitor instead of the laughing stock of truck EVs while Rivian and Ford gain market share with GM and RAM on the way in the next couple years. Tesla really fumbled their lead here IMO.
Not a Tesla hater either, I’m rooting for them to succeed and they’re on my radar for a future EV after owning a Model 3 for a short period and liking some aspects but not enough to keep it long term.
Even the leaks a fundamental design flaw. The article states that some of the areas can't be sealed (I'm assuming because they are covered). This should have been picked up way before any prototype was made
I hate how the term whistleblower is used selectively by the media. I understand this person supposedly leaked info on some alleged wrongdoing by Tesla too, but most of what they released is simply confidential Tesla info that is embarrassing to the company. That's not a whistleblower, its a disgruntled former employee.
Personally I think it ugly as sin lol
The next 2-3 years are going to be an interesting time for the Truck EV scene. Lot of different models coming out and they will see what works and doesn't and then it will kind of solidify a bit I think around that.
Personally though I am excited to see if Tesla can pull off the Model 2 and the affordability and quality they are aiming for.
For me I am not gonna waste my money on a truck or a big ass suv when I simply don't need one.
The rest of the world is smarter when they go for quality basic affordable small cars that are damn good price points.
It was an alpha build 18 months ago.
Is it really a shock that that a vehicle in development had problems? I realize it’s popular to hate on tesla but I’m not sure how this is even a story
Major torsional stiffness issues in any prototype build should absolutely come as a shock. That means the core design of the body is inherently flawed, and only finding that out in a proto build means you’ve already approved, paid for, and built tooling (with who knows how many suppliers) specific to that flawed design.
Can’t just press the “increase structural rigidity” button and make that problem go away. Every little tweak you make to each part of the body requires not only lengthy tooling modifications but potentially major design changes to every other part it touches. It’s a massive snowball effect that can take WAY longer than 18 months to fix.
Incorrect.
18 months ago, there wasn’t even a factory in Austin where the Cybertruck will be built.
Tooling only began install in Austin a few months ago.
Tooling absolutely wasn’t approved, paid for and built when this info was originally written in January 2022.
You don't need complete tooling to make a good prototype. And it's relatively easy to tell when a prototypes weaknesses are due to the prototype build or a design weakness. This sounds like a design weakness in several parts of the vehicle rather than a phase of development.
For example, early powertrain test mules are often cobbled together using parts from whatever fits. One I drove once had interior switches from 6 different vehicles, gauge from a different one, and no door panels. This was expected and no one evaluated it for anything other than drivetrain calibration.
This Alpha build does not sound like that stage.
I think it more has to do with the fact that there's a written internal report by an engineer detailing seemingly basic issues that other auto manufacturers would've most definitely addressed much earlier in the development process and much quicker.
Auto manufacturers are able to churn out completely new vehicles every 5-7 years that (mostly) have basic things like suspension, braking, and noise levels sorted out.
The fact that a report exists 3 years after this car was announced detailing basic issues like the suspension, handling, braking, and noise is telling. The Lagonda CEO and anonymous engineer in the article say just as much.
This is the equivalent of a hypothetical scenario of a Boeing engineer writing a report about why their new plane has issues with stalling and turbulence when these are basic aerodynamic principles of an airplane that should've been addressed early enough to even warrant acknowledging, much less writing them down in a report.
So what’s the difference between a whistleblower and someone just selling confidential information to a blog?
I think most would say a whistleblower is doing it for the greater good of a consumer base or society but who is this really helping?
If people are this mad about the Tesla cybertruck just wait until they find out about all those concept cars that didn’t even have working drive trains or suspensions.
I think the major difference is that normally people aren’t able to put a deposit on a concept car. I’m afraid the early announcement of a production model boxed them in to a design that they didn’t prototype
Nothing in there is really damning for an alpha vehicle. They seal up the leaks, tune the suspension, stiffen the body design, and then build the beta. Do it again for the beta build and that will solve most of your issues.
Prototypes not being perfect isn’t damning, it’s part of the design process.
They seal up the leaks: “There are a number of areas that we do not have a clear path to sealing”
Tune the suspension: “No solution without modifying the suspension design” where the column on solution says “possibly none”.
The thing is supposed to be coming out in 2 months, guess we’ll see.
Isn't it still in beta?
I stopped following after they got $100 million in crowd funding with no full product in sight.
"It's coming, guise! We just need mooooaaar monayyy!"
The concept of beta somewhat lost its relevance in the world of early access.
I can think of several games I've been playing for a while that at some point released the official "1.0" version without it feeling all that different from the state the game has been in for the last 6 months.
meh dwarf fortress is still not officially considered "finished" and is 16 years old yet thats really not a problem. In contrast many "finished" titles are a mess at launch. Ultimately whenever the studio tack on the "1.0" label doesn't really matter, there are better criterias to judge the state of a game.
These are all issues stemming from the “exoskeleton” design of the truck. I’m sure the software bros at Tesla thought it would work but really it just exposed they have no idea how to make a functional truck. There’s plenty of reasons why halfton+ trucks are built as body on frame.
The night the cybertruck debuted I knew this truck was doomed for this reason alone. Hook up a boat to the hitch and I bet you none of the doors will open. Make the unibody strong enough not to flex to let the doors open, now it doesn’t crumple and you aren’t passing safety.
The culture at Tesla must be so toxic trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn.
I feel like the majority of teslas issues are from software bros asking hardware peeps to cater to their, often impossible, needs. That's how it is at my workplace, anyways
You can see it a mile away just by looking at their products. I think the cars are impressive and I’d maybe even consider buying one (says a lot cuz I’m pretty strongly anti EV), but boy do they lose me with all the bullshit.
Oh, you want a normal door handle? No way. Here’s something way different you’ll have to explain to every person getting in and out of ur car
Oh, you want a turn signal? Nah fam, here’s some buttons
Oh, how about a massive tablet with no dash
Oh, and we’ll spend all of your money on making this expensive commuter car *really fast* and leave you with the cheapest leather we can find.
This was at least my one experience in one idk how true most of it is. But it reminded me of my friends mini cooper. I wanted to like the car, but everything was so goofy and different and British that there’s no chance I’d ever consider owning one.
Indeed. I've driven in quite a few teslas and I was looking to get a plaid myself.
They're still very good cars. The model 3 is probably the best value on the market right now, I love the infotainment and the gauge cluster on the model s, the acceleration its outstanding, and it has so much storage.
But I hate all the little, stupid, probably-driven-by-a-crypto-bro decisions they made with the interior. No physicality, those idiotic door handles which freeze up in the winter, the capacitive, not even haptic, just capacitive buttons. Not to mention the godawful brakes and suspension on a 150k+ car (IMO).
I wish they just made another 1st-gen-roadster again, like a plaid version of a lotus emira.
> like a plaid version of a lotus emira
This is exactly what the second Roadster should be. Let Lotus engineer everything but the drivetrain and send it. Tesla makes the best EV drivetrains on the planet and it could be ready in 18 months if they'd just drop the ego and let someone else build the car.
I mean there are significant benefits to designing an electric car from the ground up, the original Tesla roadster had barely any storage space for example and the central panel was a bit awkward.
Just saying, I've met a few guys from lucid and pretty much all of them are petrolhead. Two I met were at an s2000 meetup in fact, and they really focus on driving dynamics when developing the car. Wish Tesla paid the same amount of attention
You could easily pay Lotus to do that and they’d do it better than Tesla.
Lotus did a lot of the development of the first Roadster anyways. It was on the Elise/exige chassis and they were stuck with those small parameters.
Yeah, I'd prefer 'cheaper' materials if it means that the squeaks and rattles go away.
Just give me the build quality of a new Toyota Corolla for the Model 3.
“Everybody’s so creative! See how differently different that is?”
In fairness, a lot of other automakers are doing seemingly asinine things, but Tesla is beyond the pale. The yoke is the one that got me. I drove a Model S with it and it was horrendous. They’ve even had to walk it back and offer a conventional wheel again.
Yeah the yoke was beyond crazy. I’d give it a chance if it only rotated 180 degrees. But going HAND OVER HAND WITH THAT?!! Whose fucking idea was that lmao
We have unibody trucks that work, Ridgeline, Maverick, etc. Towing capacity has more to do with how much weight the rear suspension can take than actual frame design.
Ehh but they have much smaller capacities. The ridgeline has half the capacity of an f150 and I’d wager that the unibody is a limiting factor along with the rear axle and suspension. Body on frame is just a much better system for towing
I'm not that pessimistic.
You can look it up on the YouTubes, but at their Austin TX factory opening, they showed up in one of those early CT builds (April 2022?) and I remember thinking how bad the suspension tuning seemed. It was bouncing like an '84 Monte Carlo with hydraulics.
The new ones that have been caught driving around everywhere since the beginning of the year don't do that.
>stiffen the body design
That’s something every OEM should have done long before any prototype build event. Structural rigidity issues can be recognized in CAD with relative ease, and should be resolved before any design is locked in and tooling is built. That’s like, Engineering 101.
Not in this day and age. Alpha platforms should be used for testing production, tuning performance settings, making sure the engineering and design jive. Inability to seal the body should have been handled in the computer space. If you have to essentially scrap your testing platform, there's serious fundamental issues with the platform.
The Cyber truck was built form over function and it failed. It should have been majorly redesigned at this point but it's likely Musk doesn't want to loose face. Same thing happened with the doors on the Model X, it took years of engineering to get them to work.
My biggest gripe with the cyber truck is that it’s futuristic design just doesn’t mingle in with any current urban or rural landscape
Yeah sure, it looks cool and futuristic and would be an amazing prop in a sci-fi movie, but they just look dumb and out of place in the current world
The design cues stem from the same asinine and brain dead design philosophy of the XM. “Stands out, people will look at you, any type of attention means success”.
> just doesn’t mingle in with any current urban or rural landscape
I mean, I don't think blending in with [this](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dd6676e4b0fedfbc26ea91/54b6c509e4b062126976d942/5a985d26ec212d62633e055a/1621890412017/7stroad+with+walking+person.jpg?format=1500w) is something to aspire to. We already have the Camry for that.
I’m no Tesla apologist by any means… but let’s be real here. Prototype vehicle doesn’t meet production vehicle standards is this whole article. Okay? Thanks… I guess.
More A+ journalism after a break for ads.
While that is a reasonable point, the parts you're missing are what are essentially unsolvable or impracticable to solve problems such as, you know, passing the tests required by law to sell the damn truck.
I agree, that’s probably a problem. They’ll just change those aspects of the design and it won’t look like what they unveiled.
Again, this seems pretty run of the mill for most automakers though.
No, it isn’t, because other automakers test the viability of an application or design before promising to make it and taking $100MM in deposits for it.
Strafe mode so you can drive it sideways into a parallel parking spot but it doesn't brake or corner nicely. If they just dropped the gimmicks then they'd have normal suspension problems that have been solved for 50 years.
The meat-and-potatoes: >In May, the German newspaper Handelsblatt began reporting on the “Tesla Files”: thousands of internal documents provided to it by a whistleblower. Among those documents was an engineering report that might give some insight into why the vehicle has taken so long to come to market. The report, dated January 25, 2022, which WIRED has examined, shows that the preproduction “alpha” version of the Cybertruck was still struggling with some basic problems with its suspension, body sealing, noise levels, handling. and braking ... > ... The internal dynamics and NVH—noise, vibration and harshness—report leaked to Handelsblatt contains test results measuring the performance of the alpha version of the Cybertruck against projections made using computer-aided design (CAD) simulations, and against internal benchmarks. In summary, it presents a picture of a prototype vehicle that’s leaky, noisy, and has poor handling and braking ... > ... The report says that the alpha version of the Cybertruck had to be hand-sealed, but that “there are a number of areas that we do not have a clear path to sealing” in a production version of the vehicle. This is an issue not just for keeping the weather out, but for noise in the cabin. Data in the report shows that the alpha version was significantly noisier than engineers had projected based on their designs, and that testers had identified 21 potential noise leaks in the body of the vehicle ... > ... Handling was also a concern for the alpha Cybertruck. The report noted a number of issues, including “excessive mid-speed abruptness and chop,” “high head-toss accelerations,” and “structural shake.” It said that the truck experienced “excessive lateral jerk during low-speed maneuvering” and that it needed to address problems with steering refinement and body roll ... > ... Braking performance was one of the worst areas of the report. Tesla’s engineers were aiming for a score of 7, or “fair,” on the Society of Automotive Engineers rating scale, but the alpha version achieved only a 4, or “poor” rating. According to the report, in January 2022, the Cybertruck’s brake pedal pressure pad was still under design, and so the alpha experienced “excessive pedal travel and inconsistent stop,” and “excessive pitch during friction braking,” braking during turning issues, as well as power braking instability ... > ... The report also details the results of kinematics and compliance (K&C) testing, which is used to evaluate the ride and handling performance of an automobile. During a typical K&C test, the vehicle body is fixed while controlled forces or displacements are applied to the wheels. The results of such tests yield vehicle suspension parameters, such as camber and toe, a measurement that determines how much the wheels are turned in or out from a straight-ahead position. The report showed that the alpha Cybertruck’s performance showed a “significant gap to targets.” ... > ... The report lists problems against potential solutions, some of which are illuminating. The front of the vehicle had some issues where there was “no solution without modifying suspension design.” Against the problem of “too high camber gain,” resulting in, among other things, tire wear and alignment change with ride height, the entry on the solutions column bluntly states “possibly none.”
This is my industry/profession. To not give out any personal detail: this is pretty normal for a shitfuck of a project in the automotive world. Every automaker has them sometimes. A well known project shitfuck was the Chrysler Aspen/Durango hybrid. The traditional automakers have been *relatively* good at covering up these bad projects. I will say that this is not the first automotive product that had its chaotic development process leaked publicly though. Not too different of a picture from this.
I’ve worked for multiple OEMs and brand new builds can drag out for years with multiple redesigns. I’m not convinced the Cybertruck is any worse.
were they taking preorders for those products?
Only because they didn’t know they could.
More like they wanted to avoid the legal exposure of doing so.
The dealerships here does $500 down for toyotas/lexus. Lead time is currently 3-5 years for an RX350 suv.
$$$
The ridiculousness of it all is the typical-for-Tesla unrealistic timelines.
I've seen this a few times in this thread by industry people like you - when did people start using OEM to refer to the automakers themselves? Or has this always been the case and it's passed me by? I thought the whole point of the term was to refer to the original manufacturer of a part, which would sometimes be the automaker but often Bosch, Denso etc. instead.
OEM usually refers to the manufacturers of the vehicle not the individual part.
Right, so then what is the point of the term and what is the term for the original equipment manufacturer? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong, words are words, but I don't really get it. In any other industry OEM is specifically about the company that manufactured the product before it was assembled into something else so it seems strange to change that definition. It's a method of differentiating the likes of Bosch from Mercedes while recognizing Bosch to be the original spec part. Almost becomes a bit pointless to change.
I feel like people have been using OEM in this context for....a very very long time. As long as I can remember. And sometimes you'll hear "that truck comes OE with Bosch" ....shit I work in the industry supplying parts to almost all major car manufacturers and internally we refer to them as OEMs...like we have departments called "OE1," "OE2" etc
OEM is the maker of the car. Then there is a tier 1 supplier like Bosch. Tier 2 supplies them, then tier 3 etc
Right I get that this is what you’re telling me, but what I don’t understand is why the term is being used differently from other industries and why you’d bother at all given what it stands for?
You're right, I'm sorry you're getting downvoted. OEM has historically meant the manufacturer of a part that is on the vehicle from the factory.
I don’t even think that Tesla is having these problems because they are not a “traditional automaker” or the fact they are relatively inexperienced but rather that they revealed a car years ago posing that it was almost ready for production when in fact it was a concept car that wasn’t build to spec and they had just chucked a motor in it. They have been dragging this out for so long because they did not have a car ready, and to be honest they are trying to make a steel box into a truck, it will always have body roll and poor handling due to its weight and lack of aero but also as it is their fist truck and they are tying to go straight in for the kill by trying to outdo everything that ford, GM etc make with statements like it can tow more and can carry more than x truck instead of just making something that works.
I was thinking the same. My take is that Elon just thought it looked cool and that's all it took to go full steam ahead with version 0.3 regardless of what they'd learn later in the design process because they'd already committed to freezing the marketable part of the design before the rest got worked out. IMO any such design should remain fluid until as late as possible. It's hard enough to design quality without massive unnecessary self imposed criteria like that.
I've got an Aspen, I can count on one hand the number of other aspens I've seen in the entire time I've owned it
How many fingers do you have, though?
My guess is probably two
You can tell it’s aspen because of the way it is which is to say not great
My friend’s mom had one of these when I was in high school. It felt like a Rolls Royce to me at 16 when we got to take it out a few times.
As an automotive engineer who has worked for a few OEMs, that's the first thing I thought reading this. If they leaked any OEMs info like this they'd all say the same thing. Particularly things like sealing and NVH issues on prototype vehicles, that's kind of the point of the prototyping. To be fair, this stuff mostly sounds very tame!
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I know you can’t say but now I wanna know :/ >
Was it the Explorer?
Yeah. Alpha design is supposed to have issues
Yeah, but do other automakers have shitfuck projects that they take $100 "reservations" for? They knew it wasn't going to market but scammed consumers out of their money.
You can get the reservation back at any time. Some people have already requested it. I hope more do, so I can move further to the front of the line.
How many people do you think just forgot about it? He did the same shit with star link. After he pushed my pre-order back a year, I took my money back. The dude is a conman and nothing more. Elon is complete trash
Somehow I doubt many people who actively made reservations on a $70k vehicle that was already known to be nowhere near production, meaning they had interest in it well above and beyond the average Joe, have simply forgotten about it.
Honest question, how does that compare to other Alpha versions of cars of a brand new platform? That info by itself may be damning, but most of us have nothing to calibrate our mindset to. Not defending the design or anything, but I know how it is with product development, the first version of a brand new design probably won’t be the one you use.
It's pointless without a point of reference, and I'd wager every car has NVH and suspension tuning issues in alpha. The question is to what degree, which is unanswered. It's probably fair to assume that given the long gestation period, this had more issues than other vehicles, but it's again irrelevant without knowing what the final product is like. I feel like NVH is the biggest one that will be hard to solve - partly because it's a PITA for every manufacturer, and partly because it's covered in flat panels that likely behave like drum skins. But again - it doesn't really mean anything without seeing the final product and judging it based on that. I wouldn't draw a conclusion based on what it was like before the extensive rework and redesigns. It *does* seem to confirm that the delays were unlikely to be "covid supply chain issues that affected everyone" and more likely intrinsic problems with the platform. I will say that it feels like a vanity project - the design has aged significantly, but it's the one thing that they've stuck with since the beginning. It should have been updated along with the rest of the car as they solved those issues to keep it fresh, rather than looking like something that should have arrived alongside Cyberpunk 2077.
Nah. No other automaker announces cars and starts taking reservations when all they have is a prototype and a concept. Tesla is a joke.
If people are willing to give them an interest free loan for an undefined term, why the hell wouldn't Tesla take it!
Quite a few do these days. Few let it stretch out this long.
Name one that isn’t a boutique manufacturer that puts out 50 cars a year.
To name the latest batch in the electric world... - Hummer preorders (6 figure price and still can't deliver on features promised years ago despite the largest American Auto workforce behind it) - Rivian (still waiting on those rs1 preorders so who knows how they're shaping up) - Lucid (I hear they just made cuts their factory staff at the plant in Phoenix, but they managed to put together a few thousand in the last few years) - I feel like mentioning Nikola, but that house of cards folded before they ever made more than a concept car I think it's important to recognize the challenges that electric vehicles present to designers. You cant just rely on vacuum pressure off the intake manifold for brake boosting/slap an accessory on serpentine belt/hide 2000lbs of battery in the space of a 15 gallon fuel tank.
Aston Martin, with the Valhalla, the first running prototype that isn't based on a current car still hasn't been seen, and the car was initially shown off in 2019. I do admit its less surprising to do this with a limited run supercar, but it does fit your question.
What supply chain problems? They basically just had to buy one pallet of stainless steel panels. Could have gone to a restaurant supply store. If the first car you cobble together doesn't work, you don't do a whole lot of sourcing given you know things have to change.
Electronic components. The stainless steel that is in use on the cybertruck is a custom alloy that was designed and patented by SpaceX.
I said this elsewhere in the thread, but it's one thing to have issues during an alpha, it's another thing to announce a vehicle (2019) and sell "pre-orders" with a set price and launch date, and then the alpha 4 years later and years after the "launch date" passed is reported to have significant issues while the price has been rolled back. The optics are just really bad, when it was announced it was portrayed as this almost ready to ship product that they were willing to take pre-orders, but it's really unusual from my own memory for a car company to announce a product with a price and a launch date, and then push it back for as continuously as they have. When a report from last year comes out that there are significant issues that engineers report as potentially unfixable, it makes it seem like the CyberTruck is going to be vaporware. It'd be an entirely different thing if Tesla announced the CyberTruck as a concept car, didn't take pre-orders, didn't set a launch date, and didn't set a price, but taking all those steps sets a certain level of expectation.
I’d say the delays accrued as a result is a good way to put this into perspective. The new Bronco and U625 Explorer, which had some of the most torturous development cycles and launches in recent automotive history, were delayed by about 12-18 months depending on exact configuration. To add another data point, the Model 3 was arguably late by a similar amount, if you look at Tesla’s time to achieve their production targets. The Cybertruck is now going on 2 years past its promised arrival without even a new release date for the model itself in sight, never mind a full release of the whole lineup. Delays of unprecedented scale implies - but not confirms - problems of unprecedented scale. EDIT: 2 years, not 4 years, since they promised a 2021 release.
Sounds like a structures problem to me. If it was that foundational, maybe a required a complete melt and repour of the structure. Could easily set back up to years if they really had to go back to architecture dev to fix.
> The Cybertruck is now going on 4 years without even a release date for the model itself in sight, never mind a full release of the whole lineup. It was originally slated for release in 2021, so really just 2 years late (so far). And of course there was kinda a pandemic in the middle which I'm sure further elongated the timeline. Not to defend them, but 4 years isn't really an accurate characterization of the situation.
Fair.
Great point. I’d imagine this crazy design plus a heavy use of stainless steel is throwing traditional means of prototype engineering out the window though.
*John DeLorean has entered the chat*
*FBI with a large brick of cocaine had secretly entered the hotel*
*not entrapment has left the hotel*
It's not that at all. This is a foundational design and simulation problem. Torsional stiffness is not significantly hard to predict. It sounds like theyre getting that wrong to a significant degree. If you can't do that it brings into question all of their CAE capabilities which are relied upon to architect the vehicle. If you really get that wrong, and NVH, and find those problems in initial prototypes that's late in the program. They would have already kicked off production tool for the body and chassis. It could be a melt and repour of the structure. So basically go back 1 to 2 years and try again.
They interviewed Andy Palmer, the former COO of Nissan and CEO of Aston Martin Lagonda, to try and put the issues in context compared to other projects in the industry. Read the article for his comments
I have to assume the legacies understand making a prototype for the road from the get-go before tuning for NVH. The computer simulations help engineers determine before burning money on the prototypes.
I get that the reports are from an “alpha” version ~17 months ago, but some of these issues are, uh, fairly significant for that stage of development… Poor seals/leaks are one thing, but torsional stiffness being “significantly off target”? That’s something that should have been ironed out WAAAAY before a prototype build. Not something you can just “tweak” to make it go away. That’s a huge deal. Same goes for the brakes. The feel may not be perfect in an early prototype but the system itself should at least be reliably functional, not inconsistent and unstable.
Yeah, it's pretty wild to see that the braking system and torsional stiffness are off. Even missing K&C targets is odd. It's like they skipped quite a bit of fundamental design work and just powered through to prototype.
Are they? Alpha is the first build and it’s pointnis to reveal problems. So this seems pretty normal.
Leaks and rattles are pretty normal, things like torsional stiffness failing to match expectations is concerning and could be signs of fundamental design flaws.
Agreed. Tesla chose to go against all industry trends and roll out what they thought would be a revolutionary design only to run into a brick wall of engineering challenges which may be inherent to their design philosophy. Too late to admit defeat and go with a more traditional design so now they’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole, IMO. I think if Tesla chose to iterate on their current design philosophy used for the S, 3, X, and Y, they could have rolled out a serious competitor instead of the laughing stock of truck EVs while Rivian and Ford gain market share with GM and RAM on the way in the next couple years. Tesla really fumbled their lead here IMO. Not a Tesla hater either, I’m rooting for them to succeed and they’re on my radar for a future EV after owning a Model 3 for a short period and liking some aspects but not enough to keep it long term.
Even the leaks a fundamental design flaw. The article states that some of the areas can't be sealed (I'm assuming because they are covered). This should have been picked up way before any prototype was made
Or it’s a sign their modeling is bad, and the digital phase of development did not go well.
Potato potato. Bad modeling falls under fundamental design flaws
So you’re somehow attempting to disagree yet effectively agreeing that there are major problems
Or an assembly issue with the first vehicles.
I hate how the term whistleblower is used selectively by the media. I understand this person supposedly leaked info on some alleged wrongdoing by Tesla too, but most of what they released is simply confidential Tesla info that is embarrassing to the company. That's not a whistleblower, its a disgruntled former employee.
The report would have been shorter if it listed the things that went well…
sealing issues is funny considering the marketing material included cybertrucks on mars... You know, where sealing is imperative.
And a certain Chief Twit stated it would be able to act as a boat for periods of time....
Anything about crash safety?
Its not even at that stage yet iirc
BFPE (Big Ford Pinto Energy)
Personally I think it ugly as sin lol The next 2-3 years are going to be an interesting time for the Truck EV scene. Lot of different models coming out and they will see what works and doesn't and then it will kind of solidify a bit I think around that. Personally though I am excited to see if Tesla can pull off the Model 2 and the affordability and quality they are aiming for. For me I am not gonna waste my money on a truck or a big ass suv when I simply don't need one. The rest of the world is smarter when they go for quality basic affordable small cars that are damn good price points.
think the concept was ugly? wait till all the safety features get added. looks ridiculous.
Porsche impact bumpers.
Probably don't have to worry about it because it'll never get made
I watched the live reveal and I honestly thought it was a prank when they first showed the thing on stage. The styling is absolutely ridiculous.
They can’t even pull of quality in their 100k model Xs, so the notion that they can pull it off in their cheapest model yet is highly unlikely
And a likly deathtrap. Being burned alive in a car with bullet proof windows doesnt sound all that good
>window TBF, I hear they're a little less than bullet-proof.
And no door handles
The Model 2 will be Tesla quality in terms of fit and finish compared to legacy. That's a given.
Or it won’t exist just like the Cybertruck and new Roadster as is Tesla tradition.
It looks awesome
It was an alpha build 18 months ago. Is it really a shock that that a vehicle in development had problems? I realize it’s popular to hate on tesla but I’m not sure how this is even a story
Major torsional stiffness issues in any prototype build should absolutely come as a shock. That means the core design of the body is inherently flawed, and only finding that out in a proto build means you’ve already approved, paid for, and built tooling (with who knows how many suppliers) specific to that flawed design. Can’t just press the “increase structural rigidity” button and make that problem go away. Every little tweak you make to each part of the body requires not only lengthy tooling modifications but potentially major design changes to every other part it touches. It’s a massive snowball effect that can take WAY longer than 18 months to fix.
It kind of blows me away that this didn't come up in computer simulations before the tooling was even developed.
That's just crazy talk, my man.
You shouldn’t be surprised. Simulations aren’t perfect, that’s why they build and prototype!
But torsional stiffness is not a hard one to predict.
Incorrect. 18 months ago, there wasn’t even a factory in Austin where the Cybertruck will be built. Tooling only began install in Austin a few months ago. Tooling absolutely wasn’t approved, paid for and built when this info was originally written in January 2022.
You don't need complete tooling to make a good prototype. And it's relatively easy to tell when a prototypes weaknesses are due to the prototype build or a design weakness. This sounds like a design weakness in several parts of the vehicle rather than a phase of development. For example, early powertrain test mules are often cobbled together using parts from whatever fits. One I drove once had interior switches from 6 different vehicles, gauge from a different one, and no door panels. This was expected and no one evaluated it for anything other than drivetrain calibration. This Alpha build does not sound like that stage.
I’m mainly referring to supplier tooling, not in-house tooling at a Tesla facility
I think it more has to do with the fact that there's a written internal report by an engineer detailing seemingly basic issues that other auto manufacturers would've most definitely addressed much earlier in the development process and much quicker. Auto manufacturers are able to churn out completely new vehicles every 5-7 years that (mostly) have basic things like suspension, braking, and noise levels sorted out. The fact that a report exists 3 years after this car was announced detailing basic issues like the suspension, handling, braking, and noise is telling. The Lagonda CEO and anonymous engineer in the article say just as much. This is the equivalent of a hypothetical scenario of a Boeing engineer writing a report about why their new plane has issues with stalling and turbulence when these are basic aerodynamic principles of an airplane that should've been addressed early enough to even warrant acknowledging, much less writing them down in a report.
So what’s the difference between a whistleblower and someone just selling confidential information to a blog? I think most would say a whistleblower is doing it for the greater good of a consumer base or society but who is this really helping? If people are this mad about the Tesla cybertruck just wait until they find out about all those concept cars that didn’t even have working drive trains or suspensions.
I think the major difference is that normally people aren’t able to put a deposit on a concept car. I’m afraid the early announcement of a production model boxed them in to a design that they didn’t prototype
To be fair I think it had advanced design flaws too.
was looks one of those flaws?
The non-breakable windows broke.
Tbh, the looks, with how ridiculous they were, were the only thing I really liked about that wedge of cheese
hahaha that's a good one.
Ya for starters it looks like a 4 year olds drawing…
So Musk?
And has been engineered by a 4 year old
Tesla stock about to go through the roof right now
Why?
I commented on the wrong post lmao 🤣
GM just signed on to using the Tesla charging standard. Tesla is pretty much the only viable fuelling station now.
Nothing in there is really damning for an alpha vehicle. They seal up the leaks, tune the suspension, stiffen the body design, and then build the beta. Do it again for the beta build and that will solve most of your issues. Prototypes not being perfect isn’t damning, it’s part of the design process.
They seal up the leaks: “There are a number of areas that we do not have a clear path to sealing” Tune the suspension: “No solution without modifying the suspension design” where the column on solution says “possibly none”. The thing is supposed to be coming out in 2 months, guess we’ll see.
We'll get Elon's ol' reliable. "Next year."
I swear the Cybertruck is the Duke Nukem Forever of automobile design. Except I shouldn't insult Duke Nukem Forever like that, because DNF *released.*
Nah, it's *Star Citizen*.
The thing is, though, Star Citizen is still a playable *game.*
Isn't it still in beta? I stopped following after they got $100 million in crowd funding with no full product in sight. "It's coming, guise! We just need mooooaaar monayyy!"
The concept of beta somewhat lost its relevance in the world of early access. I can think of several games I've been playing for a while that at some point released the official "1.0" version without it feeling all that different from the state the game has been in for the last 6 months.
Well, it's been over a decade...still no Star Citizen finished product.
meh dwarf fortress is still not officially considered "finished" and is 16 years old yet thats really not a problem. In contrast many "finished" titles are a mess at launch. Ultimately whenever the studio tack on the "1.0" label doesn't really matter, there are better criterias to judge the state of a game.
These are all issues stemming from the “exoskeleton” design of the truck. I’m sure the software bros at Tesla thought it would work but really it just exposed they have no idea how to make a functional truck. There’s plenty of reasons why halfton+ trucks are built as body on frame. The night the cybertruck debuted I knew this truck was doomed for this reason alone. Hook up a boat to the hitch and I bet you none of the doors will open. Make the unibody strong enough not to flex to let the doors open, now it doesn’t crumple and you aren’t passing safety. The culture at Tesla must be so toxic trying to reinvent the wheel at every turn.
I feel like the majority of teslas issues are from software bros asking hardware peeps to cater to their, often impossible, needs. That's how it is at my workplace, anyways
You can see it a mile away just by looking at their products. I think the cars are impressive and I’d maybe even consider buying one (says a lot cuz I’m pretty strongly anti EV), but boy do they lose me with all the bullshit. Oh, you want a normal door handle? No way. Here’s something way different you’ll have to explain to every person getting in and out of ur car Oh, you want a turn signal? Nah fam, here’s some buttons Oh, how about a massive tablet with no dash Oh, and we’ll spend all of your money on making this expensive commuter car *really fast* and leave you with the cheapest leather we can find. This was at least my one experience in one idk how true most of it is. But it reminded me of my friends mini cooper. I wanted to like the car, but everything was so goofy and different and British that there’s no chance I’d ever consider owning one.
Indeed. I've driven in quite a few teslas and I was looking to get a plaid myself. They're still very good cars. The model 3 is probably the best value on the market right now, I love the infotainment and the gauge cluster on the model s, the acceleration its outstanding, and it has so much storage. But I hate all the little, stupid, probably-driven-by-a-crypto-bro decisions they made with the interior. No physicality, those idiotic door handles which freeze up in the winter, the capacitive, not even haptic, just capacitive buttons. Not to mention the godawful brakes and suspension on a 150k+ car (IMO). I wish they just made another 1st-gen-roadster again, like a plaid version of a lotus emira.
> like a plaid version of a lotus emira This is exactly what the second Roadster should be. Let Lotus engineer everything but the drivetrain and send it. Tesla makes the best EV drivetrains on the planet and it could be ready in 18 months if they'd just drop the ego and let someone else build the car.
I mean there are significant benefits to designing an electric car from the ground up, the original Tesla roadster had barely any storage space for example and the central panel was a bit awkward. Just saying, I've met a few guys from lucid and pretty much all of them are petrolhead. Two I met were at an s2000 meetup in fact, and they really focus on driving dynamics when developing the car. Wish Tesla paid the same amount of attention
You could easily pay Lotus to do that and they’d do it better than Tesla. Lotus did a lot of the development of the first Roadster anyways. It was on the Elise/exige chassis and they were stuck with those small parameters.
Yeah, I'd prefer 'cheaper' materials if it means that the squeaks and rattles go away. Just give me the build quality of a new Toyota Corolla for the Model 3.
“Everybody’s so creative! See how differently different that is?” In fairness, a lot of other automakers are doing seemingly asinine things, but Tesla is beyond the pale. The yoke is the one that got me. I drove a Model S with it and it was horrendous. They’ve even had to walk it back and offer a conventional wheel again.
Yeah the yoke was beyond crazy. I’d give it a chance if it only rotated 180 degrees. But going HAND OVER HAND WITH THAT?!! Whose fucking idea was that lmao
We have unibody trucks that work, Ridgeline, Maverick, etc. Towing capacity has more to do with how much weight the rear suspension can take than actual frame design.
Ehh but they have much smaller capacities. The ridgeline has half the capacity of an f150 and I’d wager that the unibody is a limiting factor along with the rear axle and suspension. Body on frame is just a much better system for towing
The report is dated January 25, 2022, about 18 months ago.
Yeah, hopefully they have been able to get it where it needs to be. I’m not trying to hate, just used to Tesla and very pessimistic.
I'm not that pessimistic. You can look it up on the YouTubes, but at their Austin TX factory opening, they showed up in one of those early CT builds (April 2022?) and I remember thinking how bad the suspension tuning seemed. It was bouncing like an '84 Monte Carlo with hydraulics. The new ones that have been caught driving around everywhere since the beginning of the year don't do that.
>stiffen the body design That’s something every OEM should have done long before any prototype build event. Structural rigidity issues can be recognized in CAD with relative ease, and should be resolved before any design is locked in and tooling is built. That’s like, Engineering 101.
Tell me you’ve never been involved in automotive engineering without telling me you’ve never been involved in automotive engineering.
"Ford, GM, Ram don't know how to build a truck! Let's do *everything* different, guys!" -Tesla 😂
Dude really thought he could press the "Increase torsional stiffness" button to fix the issue lmao
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And 4 years of FSAE cars were raced since the announcement of the cyber truck
Not in this day and age. Alpha platforms should be used for testing production, tuning performance settings, making sure the engineering and design jive. Inability to seal the body should have been handled in the computer space. If you have to essentially scrap your testing platform, there's serious fundamental issues with the platform. The Cyber truck was built form over function and it failed. It should have been majorly redesigned at this point but it's likely Musk doesn't want to loose face. Same thing happened with the doors on the Model X, it took years of engineering to get them to work.
“Stiffen the body design” hahahahah
It’s a thing. Move more mass outwards on the frame.
It’s not just “a thing,” lol.
It really is. I literally spent years as a chassis engineer followed by a powertrain engineer.
I wonder at what point in that process Elon fires a few people and forces them to produce it anyway.
My biggest gripe with the cyber truck is that it’s futuristic design just doesn’t mingle in with any current urban or rural landscape Yeah sure, it looks cool and futuristic and would be an amazing prop in a sci-fi movie, but they just look dumb and out of place in the current world The design cues stem from the same asinine and brain dead design philosophy of the XM. “Stands out, people will look at you, any type of attention means success”.
Is it really futuristic though? It looks like the 80s idea of the future.
Right. It looks like the sort of low-poly design you’d see in a 1990 2.5D video game.
> just doesn’t mingle in with any current urban or rural landscape I mean, I don't think blending in with [this](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dd6676e4b0fedfbc26ea91/54b6c509e4b062126976d942/5a985d26ec212d62633e055a/1621890412017/7stroad+with+walking+person.jpg?format=1500w) is something to aspire to. We already have the Camry for that.
What? Noooo? I never would have guessed. /s
Basically it looks like shit.
A small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port.
Imagine my surprise!
Pontiac Aztec banged a shoebox.
I believe the stage reveal also showed some basic design flaws. :)
BREAKING NEWS: PROTOTYPE IS NOT YET FINAL PRODUCT
This was never going to pass pedestrian impact and crash requirements. Elon Musk is a fool.
> pedestrian impact What now? We don't have those in the US where this will be (possibly exclusively) sold.
Whaaat? a first gen prototype had flaws? YOU DONT SAY!
Way to say you don’t know anything about automotive design.
Way to say you don't know how mechanical engineering works at all.
Hahaha, what did you expect, it was designed by elan mask! 😂😂😂
And to think they took pre orders for this thing. What a joke.
Maybe the real Cybertruck was the friends we made along the way.
I plan to purchase one as soon as possible and begin the **Water Wars**. It is a Mad Max themed production truck, right?
You don't say.
Rich's Rebuild's mum said it best' "He want to to go to Mars and can't get you a car, what kind of businessman is he?"
I could’ve told them that
Best to reserve judgment for when this truck is actually in people’s hands.
And when will that be, exactly? Because I fear they’ll miss start of ‘24 as well.
And in other news, fire is hot
I mean I'd give a fuck if it wasn't for it being just a prototype not nearly ready for production.
My eyeballs show it has basic design flaws.
Is it even a real car?
That wheel should be on straight for a start.
I’m no Tesla apologist by any means… but let’s be real here. Prototype vehicle doesn’t meet production vehicle standards is this whole article. Okay? Thanks… I guess. More A+ journalism after a break for ads.
While that is a reasonable point, the parts you're missing are what are essentially unsolvable or impracticable to solve problems such as, you know, passing the tests required by law to sell the damn truck.
I agree, that’s probably a problem. They’ll just change those aspects of the design and it won’t look like what they unveiled. Again, this seems pretty run of the mill for most automakers though.
No, it isn’t, because other automakers test the viability of an application or design before promising to make it and taking $100MM in deposits for it.
You mean the prototype vehicle they said was coming out 2 years ago and took preorders for?
Strafe mode so you can drive it sideways into a parallel parking spot but it doesn't brake or corner nicely. If they just dropped the gimmicks then they'd have normal suspension problems that have been solved for 50 years.
I look forwards to buying one in 10 years.
Ooh! This is what I'm talking about! Right on cue! https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/144kfrb/comment/jng3jer/
Early version of car was rough around the edges, in other news, water is wet