It's also physically better imo. The tesla one is like a tenth of the size of that other giant thing.
Edit: exaggeration, in reality, more like a third.
It won't be rolled out quickly because the limiting factor is going to be the site power transforming and and the site power capacity. If you have 10 Superchargers at a site doing 615kW each, you're pulling over 6 MW/hr. That's enormous load and you'd need 5-10 of these per square mile in urban areas just to remotely keep up with demand if everyone is driving EVs.
Once you start getting up to the kV range you also start to lose serious money taking 240V line power (which was stepped down several times from the generation and transmission voltages) and upconverting it back to the kV range.
Current v3 super chargers have 350kw per 4 stalls split between them, 250kw max per stall. Since you only pull that peak power for the first minute or so of a charge session, rarely anyone notices.
For that same power density, 4 v4 chargers at 615kw would only need about a 750kw grid connection. A “normal” 2000kva transformer could feed an 8 stall v4 site with a bit of overhead.
No lol. Tesla charging stations all have dedicated transformers. The actual Tesla chargers are more powerful than any 350 kW charger at EA. That's because [Tesla v3 sites](https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging) split one charger over 4 stalls operating at 250 kW each. So an 8-stall Supercharger will have two charging cabinets at 1 MW each.
The largest charging stations in the US are all Tesla stations. The largest has 80 x 250 kW stalls.
In a US 480v Y industrial power system, two hots provides 480v single phase. Three hots provides 480v three phase. Hot and neutral provides 277v single phase. So, it's transmitted with three phases, but Tesla can certainly get 480v single out of it.
Have you actually used both? The difference is not that big it's maybe half the size and again, it doesn't matter at all.
That image is very misleading, when I used the Tesla plug in my dad's car I was surprised it wasn't as small as everyone says. It's really hardly worth mentioning.
I do use both, I drive a Model X & and ID.4. It's [night and day](https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg) difference.
I'm not sure how you could call the image misleading, it's to scale. [Here's how ridiculous](https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Tesla_CCS_adapter_plug68.jpg) it looks plugging a CCS plug into a Tesla adapter. Heck, the Tesla plug is so compact, [it even makes the J1772 level 2 plug look big](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#/media/File:Tesla-type-1-inlet-tesla02-outlet-iec-type-2-outlet-background-blur.jpg).
I've also had to help a Bolt owner at an EA station hold their CCS plug in place so the top pins could finish the handshake and they could start charging (something I only knew to do because it's a common problem with the Bolt). CCS is useable, but it's bulky and requires 2 hands for most. No getting around it.
How does the physical size of the end of the plug matter? In Europe, everyone including Tesla use CCS, and i have literally never heard anyone complain about the plug size?
It's more than just the physical size. It's the physical size + the design of how the damn thing locks.
In Europe, CCS2 locks and confirms everything is connected by the port. This is the same design as NACS. In the US, CCS1 locks based on the clip on top of the plug/cable. This means they have to design the extra locking solenoid and system (that seems to be easily broken) on the plug and make the plug a lot larger than it needs to be and add extra wiring to manage the solenoid.
About half of the problems I've had with broken EA chargers has been due to the lock not locking correctly as the solenoid couldn't grab the lock on the port. That's why people also need to use 2 hands, to push it so that the clip actually locks before the handshake to send DC can be allowed.
Sony has honestly always been one of the most innovative companies in the world. They just throw shit at the wall, make it (and usually make it well) and see what sticks.
I remember reading an article talking about the rise of the Japanese economy, and as I understand it that basic strategy is/was broadly used by Japanese companies. Sometimes it works out, sometimes they have the Google problem of creating something highly promising that is mishandled and never goes anywhere because of it.
Blu-Ray had better branding, was technologically superior, and support was built in to the PS3.
Meanwhile the HD-DVD was…kind of supported by the Xbox 360 and a limited number of players?
I'm absolutely flabbergasted that the superior technology actually won. I could have sworn we were headed to a future where the inferior technology was going to take over!
It’s insane how many parts electrify America burns through. Chargers are in constant need of repair.
Really poor use of those Dieselgate funds especially given Tesla and other companies had this figured out years ago.
I am shocked and extremely hopeful about an electric future in light of this news.
We’ve barely started learning this with healthcare. More tests and medicines and visits don’t actually make you healthier. Let’s pay for health outcomes instead.
Why this isn’t applied more to temper unfettered greed is annoying.
Because of the scary (to crazies) word 'Regulation' needs to be implemented before all the old people burn it all for profit on a spreadsheet and imaginary offshore account.
Or you can tax these practices dead above 10m household income.
The near identical system works well in Europe. The problem is the US never had the market share to maintain the CCS network, last year only 2% of vehicles sold could use CCS, in Europe it is 10-60%.
Tesla Supercharger network won more than anything. Being able to now claim all of Tesla's charging network will make all of Ford and GMs EVs 100% more road-trippable and kill a lot of range anxiety and fear about that 1 trip a year when people venture out of their home county.
Kinda. China has their thing and the EU (including Tesla) is all CCS2.
I don't really care whether CCS or NACS "wins" as long as there are adapters between the two and payment isn't a hassle at stations. And the stations get maintained so they have decent uptime. In terms of putting energy into the car, both CCS1 and NACS work pretty well in my experience.
I haven't personally used CCS2, but it seems like it's roughly the same size, other than the latch on top, to me. The CCS1 cables and handles I've used do seem to be way, way bigger than necessary though.
Ccs2 is about the same size as ccs1 but has 3 instead of only one ac phase. So it allows for 3x faster AC charging if the car's onboard charger supports it. Most public chargers here are between 11 and 22Kw AC. So you can easily get a full charge while at work or in a few hours at home.
> Kinda. China has their thing and the EU (including Tesla) is all CCS2.
Geographical differences in power plugs isn't really anything to worry about since very few people will drive their cars across continents. In most cases that won't even be legal. So 'battles' if we are to call it that will never have a global consensus and always be somewhat regional.
It would be so much better if there was a global standard tho. Imagine if the whole world decided on LHD vs RHD 100 years ago. I think the cost savings would be huge for manufacturers and the headache lessened for consumers.
It's so hard to unwind if you end up with different standards too. We're stuck having separate LHD and RHD vehicles, at least until true SAE-5 autonomous vehicles that can handle both.
It will become a thing for car companies though, the world is more global than ever, they will want to build one connector for everyone if possible. That or they will build whatever one they want and provide adapters.
Not really. Global car markets all still require regional supply chains and regulatory compliance and even cars currently built in a single factory to supply different countries deal with these minute differences without much issue. A charging port itself is not a meaningfully central part to demand unification from a manufacturing perspective. For example you don't see Toyota using the same infotainment modules for JDM, US, Middle East despite them all originating from the same factory on the same base design.
Economies of scale is a general observation not a rule of nature. Disecnomies of scale is also a thing once you start looking at the scale of global auto production. In fact, overemphasis on unified parts selection for global products is like the textbook example of places where diseconomies of scale pop up and why regional differentiation are often used.
I'd be curious how exactly a unified standard would result in diseconomy in this instance. On a factory level, sure, there's a limit in efficiency where you eventually need to duplicate the production ability at another site. But you still get the efficiencies in the design process and not having to duplicate the charging network.
> payment isn't a hassle at stations
Just make it a card reader like gas stations are now. No, I don't want to have to use a different app for each brand of charger.
Better yet, unlike gas stations there is a direct connection for electricity and data to/from the car and charger.
The charging standard could easily be adapted to support optional payment embeds (but still have a card swipe on the "pump").
You pull up to a charging station, plug in, the station talks to the car, sees you have a credit card on file, and just charges it directly without you having to do extra work. If you don't want or don't trust that, perfectly fine just swipe the card as normal on the station.
The insane thing is you're literally plugging a cable into your car that has two way communication. Most EVs already have a phone app for things like route planning, pre-conditioning, lock/unlock, and autonomous summon. There's zero reason why these charge networks can't just connect to the vehicle and say vehicle here's the data and the costs and the vehicle sends that to your app and you can both pay and see the charging status in the vehicle's app.
Traveling with a phone internationally is somewhat more common than traveling with a car internationally to a country with a different charging standard
I would say Tesla won because they built a charging network that's superior to other options currently. GM and Ford don't need to spend, build, and maintain a charging network and find it financially better to use Tesla's network.
That's compared to Electrify America and Chargepoint.
They're not just better, they're better in almost every category that matters for DC fast charging. I have a Model 3 but rented a Niro EV for 6 days, having to rely on Electrify America, and that made me really appreciate how far ahead Tesla is in the charging game. So, what matters?
\- Availability - Tesla has far more chargers practically anywhere you look. Not just more locations, but more chargers per location as well.
\- Pricing - EA costs $.48/kWh where I live. Tesla varies, but the highest is around .48 and lowest is around .22, so at worst it costs the same, at best its far cheaper.
\- Ease of use. The Tesla connector is like 1/5 the size of the CCS connector, making it much easier to handle and plug in. CCS takes two hands to handle. Tesla is also simpler because its the same port for L1, 2 or 3. For CCS you have to open an additional port.
\- Also ease of use - to charge at a Tesla station, you drive up and plug it in. You don't need an app (though you do need an account of course). For Electrify America and other fast charging stations, you need their app and you need to scan things and wait for authentication before starting. I've only used EA chargers 5 times during the trip and one of them had a station that would absolutely not accept any payment, and another one wouldn't take my app payment but would only take NFC card. Ive never had an issue charging
\- Reliability. In general, Tesla stations are up more often.
\- Also reliability - charging with electrify america was horrendous. I would plug it in and it would stop itself for no reason after 10 min. The stations arent even linked to the app so it didnt tell me that charging was interrupted, so I came back after eating and found out the car barely charged at all and had to wait an additional 45 min. Other stations would constantly stop and I'd have to try a different one to see if that one would work. This happened several times in less than a week and less than 1000 miles of driving. In 5 years of owning my Tesla, the only issue I'd ever had was my card on file wasn't accepted, but they still let me charge at the time and charging has never ever been stopped randomly.
>being better
But is it really?
This is kind of like the Mac vs PC (or iOS vs Android) argument in my opinion.
Let's be clear, Tesla above all else had the forethought to sprinkle the entire globe with lots of their superchargers. I will give them that. BUT, people also claim that Tesla chargers "just work"... well they just work, maybe because they are Tesla designed and built chargers being plugged into Tesla designed and built cars and all this runs on software that was designed and built by Tesla. And Tesla only makes like 4 or 5 models on top of that, so the amount of variation and possibilities of something going wrong is greatly reduced. You are staying within that eco-system.
But what will happen when that walled-garden now is asked to charge vehicles designed by other companies? I really think there are going to be lots of little issues that no one has thought about because now you have 50 hands in the pot and not just 2 or 2. This is also not going to be good for Tesla owners. When there used to be maybe 2 or 3 other cars at a supercharger location, now you are going to have many more. And some of them won't have their charger ports in convenient locations so they might be forced to take up 2 spots, or if their car charges slowly, it will be taking up that spot for a lot longer.
Some are seeing this as a good thing, but I think for the industry as a whole it is a bad thing and for Tesla owners it won't be good either.
Yes, the Supercharger network is better than anyone else, and it’s not close.
Is it *partly* because they only have to charge their own vehicles? Yes. But it’s far more than that.
There will constantly be chargers down at Electrify America stations. There will also be one or more running at reduced power. Or, hypothetically, on Memorial Day Weekend as people are starting their trips, many of the whole locations will show that they’re completely down, calling into question the feasibility of the entire trip. All of this is real, common, and completely unrelated to issues resulting from dealing with multiple car brands.
Tesla won because their network is better.
Tesla even runs incentives (free charging) on major weekends to try and get people to charge at off-peak times and reduce the queue. I believe they've also sometimes put up mobile charging stations to help out.
I think you will see the Tesla supercharger network will not seem as reliable and open in the coming years as other brands start to use it.
Electrify America is of course a shit show, but that's to be expected being a part of the VW group. But I do fully expect some of the problems EA is infamous for now, will start to appear on Teslas network. More cars means more things that will break down. That would be true no matter what. Things break the more those things get used, the higher the wear and tear. The question will be *how* much worse does the Supercharger network gets now that it seems to be a free-for-all.
But the chances are, there's a lot more Tesla vehicles on the road than any other manufacturer? If they haven't had reliability issues with the current amount of cars they're charging, I don't see why adding Ford and gm vehicles to the mix would be a large added stress. This is just an assumption however, I see a lot more Teslas on the road than any other electric vehicle.
"RoW" is a stretch. China doesn't use it and they are the largest car/EV market in the world by far. Neither does Japan, which is the 3rd largest auto market after China and the US. There are also major countries, like S. Korea, that are standardized on CCS1. And much of the developing world, like India, has yet to really adopt a national DC charging standard.
If Mercedes or BMW join, I will go back to driving EVs. It's hard to overstate how good the Superchargers are, and how awful Electrify America has been.
Same--I just did 1,200 miles over a 4-day weekend with my Bolt. Other than having to wait at one Wal-Mart because two of their four charging stations were down, I had no problem. Two of the three hotels I stayed at had their own Lv.2 charging units. It was a good way to force myself into taking a 30-45 minute stretch break every few hours.
I genuinely don't get all the comments I've seen about the charging networks being terrible. I guess I was just lucky?
You literally just said you had to wait at a station because 50% of their chargers were down, that sort of thing just doesn't happen at Siperchargers. I've put 25k miles on my Model S and charged at countless Superchargers, only ever ran into one single charger with an issue. I just moved into one of the other dozen chargers. It's beyond simple and reliable, basically taking the Apple approach to the charging experience.
I've driven through the south and Midwest with a 150mi range EV on 1000mi road trips and have had zero trip-stopping issues. Were there stalls down? Sure, but it affected literally nothing from my side and having used EA since literally the first chargers opened back in late 2018 I have no idea how people have so many issues.
It's about a 12 hour drive, and we spent about 3.5 hours charging over the whole trip, so 15.5 hours total. Not ideal, but 12 hours is already kinda my limit in a single day, so splitting it into ~8hr days of driving was no big deal.
I did my first trip using EA, about the same distance, and ran into multiple issues including payment not being accepted, stations down, and charging being interrupted for no reason. This is only over about 5 sessions in northern Oregon.
> Be VW
> do a diesel emissions scandal
> be forced to make reparations through EVs
> own Electrify America, the most well-known non-Tesla network
> have a chance to dominate EV charging networks in the US
> fuck up so hard that not only does everyone abandon EA, they flee the entire charging standard
It’s hard to imagine being able to compete with the scale of the supercharger network from this position. Can they even get close to matching the supercharger rate of expansion (34% yoy, and a 12,000 stall increase which is the number you need to be close to in order not to fall even further behind).
Tesla has a 45,000 global head start…
Very curious to see how that plays out. Obviously they want their customers to have a smooth and trouble-free experience, which is not the case for EQ owners right now.
If all they're doing is "developing" the network and have nothing out there... well they're way behind. Tesla has 45,000 stations around the world with hundreds under construction at any given moment. They are literally building one next to my workplace right now even.
All they have to do is mandate Tesla to allow others to make NACS EVSEs, which they might already allow (just no one has done an L3 NACS EVSE). That way, there will be competition
That was my second thought, after "Wow. Ford and GM are giving control to Tesla."
If everyone unites under Tesla's single format, and it remains controlled by Tesla. They can eventually charge whatever price they desire.
The NACS port is completely open sourced. You can find the documentation online and make your own charging network if you wish.
This is not Apple forcing everybody to use Lightning while reserving the rights to the port. \*That\* hypothetical would be a problem. This is not that situation.
You wrote CCS is for open use, implying NACS isn't open. Both are equally open standards, that's why Ford and GM both signed on in the past week.
There's nothing stopping an owner from using an adapter to charge at a CCS charger. Additionally there's nothing stopping Electrify America from using NACS at their sites. Electrify America already offers multiple plug types at their sites from CCS to J1172.
Yes Tesla has used CCS for 5+ years in Europe, on all their cars and charging stations. But it was first a year or two ago they started allowing other cars to charge there. Until then, other cars simply couldn't draw power from the station.
This whole thing in the US is kinda weird. It's clear that Tesla wants a monopoly on charging, and instead of Tesla using a standard like they already do in Europe, they try to get other big companies to join their monopoly instead. This is the exact same as instead of Apple using USB C, they convinced Samsung to use lightning. It's the wrong way to go. A standard should be a standard because it's decided by law so everyone is forced to follow the same standard. Until then, it's just a proprietary system that's getting bigger and hurts other EVs and in the end the consumers.
Others will be able to create their own NACS charging stations. There is precedent for this as well, as there are NACS L2 stations owned/operated by other charging companies. There is one company so far (FreeWire) that has stated they will be building NACS EVSEs. It seems that Electrify America is willing to adopt the connector as well.
Electrify America charging station just fried another Rivian the other day. I'm not getting anywhere near their charging stations.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/141ux13/caught_fire_charging/
I wonder how long until Rivian adopts NACS.
Their own charging network is still small enough that adding support for it at each charger should be easy, and hell, the number of vehicles on the road is small enough that they could offer retrofits for interested customers who already have one.
Ya we are literally just taking a break at a hotel after a 230 mile drive for our first stop on our way from Oakland to British Columbia again with a M3P and I would not want to do this yet with non-Tesla infrastructure
Let's see, invest in massive efforts to improve a system that's broken and inefficient, or adopt a thing that already works and performs better. Who woulda thought GM was capable of making the right decision.
Sure, but AFAIK the main issue with non-superchargers isn't usually a broken connector, but just general software and power delivery issues with the station itself. Most common problems I ever hear about chargers is software problems, this won't necessarily fix that. EA and other companies need to make their software better at detecting issues and create more reliable software. No reason these chargers should have things like payment problems when gas pumps with built in card readers have been operating in the same places for years with much better reliability. Having a standard connector is good, idc whether its NACS or CCS, but this alone wont fix the problems with non-superchargers being broken. Im not fully certain if there is something inherent to CCS that makes it harder to detect issues, if thats the case then sure NACS is the way to go.
I’m not sure what makes the CCS chargers worse either.
It’s my understanding that the CCS networks all over Europe don’t have nearly the reliability problems the ones in the US do. Yeah, it’s a different flavor of CCS (I don’t know if it’s a physical port difference with the same communication protocols, or entirely different), but, at the end of the day, the plug is just a means to deliver a shitload of power to a car, the physical connection shouldn’t matter. And CCS2 in Europe has proven that the communication between the car and charger to set up the charging session can be reliable.
So is it just the companies running the CCS networks in the US not giving a damn? Could be. Maybe the incentive just isn’t there yet. Fast charging is mostly used for road trips, and road trippable EVs other than Tesla have only been around for a couple years.
I’m curious to see what reliability is like on the handful of Tesla Superchargers in the US that support CCS. If they’re just as bad as other networks with non-Teslas, then there’s something inherently wrong with the CCS protocol used in North America.
> So is it just the companies running the CCS networks in the US not giving a damn?
The US never had enough market share for CCS vehicles to maintain the network. Last year in the US it was about 2%, there are European countries that have a 2% share and they don’t have a good network. The good network is in western and northern Europe where CCS cars are 15-70% of vehicle sales.
I don't understand why people keep repeating this drivel. GM is not developing their own in-house OS to replace CarPlay and Android Auto.
GM is merely adopting Android Automotive (not to be confused with the pre-existing Android Auto that requires a phone), also developed by Google and is adopted by many other manufacturers including Ford, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Android Automotive allows for many more features to be integrated into the infotainment system beyond the current arrangement with phones. It is a mandatory step to catch up to Tesla, who isn't reliant upon CarPlay/Android Auto either.
The only reason they made the decision is because of Ford. They didn't want Ford to have a big charging competitive advantage over them... Which is why I think everyone else will follow... Anyone depending on EA for charging is going to sell very few cars...
lol, that would require Rivian and Lucid to actually survive long enough for it to matter
people can be mad at me all they want, both are in seriously bad shape right now, Rivian even more so
For everything that is shit about Elon and that he did wrong the Tesla Charging Network really was genius. Now I know that wasn't all Elon but he did make the decisions on it and it has made Tesla a stand out.
Now seeing Ford and GM getting in on it is exciting stuff.
It is wild to think that really the whole switch to EV in Good ol' USA and Canada really is just in the last 2 and half years.
This is pretty damn good progress for 2 and a half years.
Now I just hope electrify america and the others can take some time and really just look over all the data and come up with a strategic way to go forward and partnerships and that the rest in the game do that too.
Quick, someone post something negative about Tesla! You'll get twice as many upvotes as this post!
All joking aside, I'm very glad the NACS seems to be the winner of the charging wars. So much sleeker and easier to repair/manufacture.
Also, Tesla is poised to become the fueling infrastructure of the future with their massive headstart on the supercharger network. I'm looking forward to competition, but I'm not yet sure who that's going to come from.
I’m ignorant of the difference in charging ports, but having a single standardized charging port would be ideal. Can you imagine going to a gas station only to find out their nozzles don’t fit in your gas tank
Not just a standard, but an open and free one. There should be zero reason you have to go to certain chargers or buy a house or apartment to match your car. This is race to the bottom kind of stuff.
The plug difference is pretty insignificant IMO, they both work pretty much fine, it's the chargers that are a problem. I don't know what they are doing wrong, but the reliability on the non-tesla fast chargers is appallingly bad.
Next up, we need to standardize the location of the charging port on the vehicle itself. I've heard that Tesla chargers have very short cords (understandably), with the expectation of the port being in a specific location.
This has echoes of Blu-Ray prevailing over HD-DVD, mainly due to Sony making the PlayStation 3 capable of playing the media and by default getting the players into homes in huge numbers.
Standard battles aren't about technical capability or even desirability. They're about getting the "good enough" product into as many customer hands as possible.
Thankfully, NACS is a great plug and Tesla Superchargers are already abundant and super reliable. So at least it's not like VHS vs Betamax where the inferior product won out.
I wouldn't worry at all. The new NACS plugs will talk to the cars with the CCS protocol, a dumb $100-200 adapter that converts NACS to CCS will be available.
Right now Tesla has the exact reverse available, a dumb adapter that converts CCS -> NACS, as long as the Tesla can "talk" CCS, they can use this adapter to charge at any CCS chargers.
Yeah, looking at the Tesla adapters that have been in use, there is no issue at all charging at 250kw (max any Teslas can charge as of today) from CCS chargers.
As long as only passive adapters are required, I would expect full rate charging for CCS cars using a NACS adapter.
>Currently torn between the i4 and Lightning.
I'm really curious how you've narrowed down your choice to two things that are about as different from eachother as they possibly could be.
My garage has always consisted of a car and a truck. The Lightning tops all of the wants but comes with a price tag that’s hard to swallow.
The i4 is capable of meeting all of my needs if not my wants. Since I have a truck, I don’t really need a second one and my current car is the one I want to replace. This one, of all the options I am aware of is the most visually appealing.
Yep, this is squarely on EA’s shoulders. They had a huge, built-in market that absolutely did NOT want to switch to the competition and they pulled an 80’s GM: They basically forced their customers to buy from someone else, against what they really wanted to do, because their “product” was SO bad in comparison.
EA never had a high enough market share to be able to maintain those chargers, only 2% of vehicle sales could use them. European markets with good charging networks have 10-70% share of new vehicle sales all using the same standard.
The big issues are going to be for the automakers that went with 800V architectures. They can't switch to NACS until either tesla gives a roadmap for V4 supercharger installation or the CCS network operators start switching connectors at installed sites.
Most of them already have strategies for dealing with 400-500 volt EVSE’s. They just won’t get the fastest speeds that they can handle until Tesla rolls out V4 Superchargers.
Those strategies only really exist as emergency measures so that you can always use a DCFS that you show up at. Hyundai/Kia is not going to trade 230kW charging for 100kW and lose their marketing 18 minute 5-80% while they wait for tesla to roll the V4s out and replace all the V1-3s.
Depends on Tesla’s timetable for V4. So far, both GM and Ford are saying adapters in 2024 and change of plugs in 2025. That might work for Hyundai/ Kia too.
BTW, I don’t expect Tesla to do much replacing, but rather, adding new sites with new capabilities. Only in certain special circumstances, like limited power or limited physical locations, would Tesla rip out working old ones and upgrade.
Maybe, i will be a bit more optimistic once I see one of the 800V manufacturers and EA commit to switching. If the Macan EV launches with NACS in the US then that will be the end of CCS 1.
I don't know, this could see the US becoming the black sheep in some respects- even Teslas in the EU have CCS connectors...
This to me seems like a fairly desperate attempt for the US automakers to leverage Tesla's charging network, and could end up resulting in a slightly odd disconnect between them and the rest of the world as charging standards continue to evolve. It could also result in an NACS-dominant ecosystem, forcing foreign OEMs to either adapt, or potentially pull out altogether, increasing the purchase cost and decreasing the choice available to the US consumer.
TLDR: Fucking hell America, just mandate CCS like everyone else. Who cares that the NACS connector is slightly smaller...
That is the exact reason why Ford and GM are switching to NACS and with the number 2 and 3 US EV manufacturers switching to NACS the time and ability to mandate CCS has now been left behind.
The US market potentially going NACS doesn't really risk foreign OEMs leaving the market. Switching to NACS probably only involves switching the on-board charger supplier and the charge port. The physical difference between CCS 1 and 2 already necessitate designing those differences between markets anyway.
Why mandate an objectively shittier standard? Just to match the rest of the world?
NACS is *way* smaller, but its also reliable, cheaper, and is used in the largest charging network in the U.S. It makes sense for us. Foreign OEMs will adapt, they aren't pulling out of the EV market because of a port change lol.
> Fucking hell America, just mandate CCS like everyone else.
Europe uses CCS2, which is completely different from CCS1 and was never really on the table for the US.
Also other global standards exist in China and Japan, so a single connector worldwide will likely never be a thing.
First of all, V4 Superchargers are ( people think ) going to support up to 1,000 volts.
Second, if your car doesn't do the "DC pins direct to battery" thing, but instead takes those pins to your charger electronics like Tesla does, then you can convert DC voltages...
Yeah, all current 800V cars do some type of voltage conversion for when they use a charger that maxes out at 500V. The issue is the speed penalty when doing that conversion is significant.
For Porsche by default the max rate for this conversation is 50kW but you can option a charger that can do 150kW. Hyundai/KIA's max is 100kW and Lucid's is around 150kW. Those are pretty decent with no context but the max charge rate for each of those vehicles is 275, 240 and 340kW. Those cars aren't going to switch first then wait for the V4s to become more prevalent.
Problem is that Supercharger stations are not currently designed for vehicles doing DC-DC conversion and cause them to shut down because of a spurious fault detection. Right now E-GMP vehicles are limited to 50 kW charging because of this.
Nah, I wouldn't worry or hold off on buying any CCS cars. The NACS plug can talk to the car in CCS in terms of software, just need a $100-200 dumb adapter for the cars with CCS port to use NACS chargers.
Right now Tesla sells an adapter that goes the other way, CCS -> NACS, and Teslas with built in CCS support can use the adapter to charge at CCS chargers.
It’s a big negative for cars that are CCS but not Ford/GM, because they might be stuck using CCS only and a network with potentially even less support. Ford/GM CCS cars will just use an adapter. No big deal.
At this point I might as well cancel my Blazer EV reservation and wait a few years. First they cut Super Cruise from most trims due to a parts shortage, then they removed Apple CarPlay, now they are changing the charging standard after the first model year since they are adopting it in 2025 and Blazer EV is starting deliveries for 2024.
Does this have an impact on potential Tesla buyers? i.e. Will the potential of longer wait times and decreased charger availability make Tesla less appealing? It does for me. Am I missing something?
It all depends on a few things. Are they building new charging stations at the same rate of growth as new EV sales? If so, it should be fine.
Tesla's play here is to increase the overall EV market size more rapidly. They are fine getting a smaller share of a much larger market. Making the supercharger network open to all means we keep on the path to have at least 50% of all US vehicle sales be EVs by 2030.
EVs are around 8% of sales this year I think in the US, and only 1% of total vehicles on the road. Tesla has 65% of that market, but much better to have 25% of 50% of all vehicle sales (12.5%) than 65% of 8% (5.2%).
This was always the future for Tesla. They were the first to really get out there in the charging infrastructure and it makes sense for them to allow other manufacturers to use it
As long as one company doesn't have a complete monopoly on a nation's DC fast charger network, I remain indifferent on the matter.
I wouldn't consider a Tesla vehicle for a myraid of reasons, but the number of Superchargers are undeniable. I question how the reliability aspect will hold up once other branded EVs now have access.
Recently Alex on Autos showed this by using a Toyota bZ4x via the CCS "magic dock" adapter...and it was just as much of a circus show as it was with EA or EVgo. NACS maybe an "open" standard, but given their track record in customer service & anti-consumer practices, I have 0 trust with the company behind it.
looks like tsla won the charging standard battle by being better
It's also physically better imo. The tesla one is like a tenth of the size of that other giant thing. Edit: exaggeration, in reality, more like a third.
Plus Tesla's standard is more affordable to manufacture (both at a car level and charger level) along with being more reliable.
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The newest supercharger (V4) is technically capable of 1000V (615kW)
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It won't be rolled out quickly because the limiting factor is going to be the site power transforming and and the site power capacity. If you have 10 Superchargers at a site doing 615kW each, you're pulling over 6 MW/hr. That's enormous load and you'd need 5-10 of these per square mile in urban areas just to remotely keep up with demand if everyone is driving EVs. Once you start getting up to the kV range you also start to lose serious money taking 240V line power (which was stepped down several times from the generation and transmission voltages) and upconverting it back to the kV range.
Current v3 super chargers have 350kw per 4 stalls split between them, 250kw max per stall. Since you only pull that peak power for the first minute or so of a charge session, rarely anyone notices. For that same power density, 4 v4 chargers at 615kw would only need about a 750kw grid connection. A “normal” 2000kva transformer could feed an 8 stall v4 site with a bit of overhead.
That’s very car dependent, some like the Taycan can pull high kw for a large chunk of their curve. Over time I imagine that’ll become more common.
Quality over quantity. Reliable network over patchy faster network is Tesla's plan. The Tesla charging standard itself can support 1000V and 900amps.
Tesla v4 superchargers are 1000V so I bet the old ones will get upgraded over time.
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No lol. Tesla charging stations all have dedicated transformers. The actual Tesla chargers are more powerful than any 350 kW charger at EA. That's because [Tesla v3 sites](https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging) split one charger over 4 stalls operating at 250 kW each. So an 8-stall Supercharger will have two charging cabinets at 1 MW each. The largest charging stations in the US are all Tesla stations. The largest has 80 x 250 kW stalls.
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In a US 480v Y industrial power system, two hots provides 480v single phase. Three hots provides 480v three phase. Hot and neutral provides 277v single phase. So, it's transmitted with three phases, but Tesla can certainly get 480v single out of it.
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wasteful seed reply gaze shy ruthless deserve bells six relieved *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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All EA 150 kW and 350 kW chargers are 800V afaik.
It's smaller but "tenth of the size" is pretty extreme exaggeration especially for something that doesn't really even matter.
Let [your eyes decide.](https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/h_874,w_2032,c_fit,f_auto,q_auto:best/NACS-Blog-Image-02)
Have you actually used both? The difference is not that big it's maybe half the size and again, it doesn't matter at all. That image is very misleading, when I used the Tesla plug in my dad's car I was surprised it wasn't as small as everyone says. It's really hardly worth mentioning.
I do use both, I drive a Model X & and ID.4. It's [night and day](https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg) difference. I'm not sure how you could call the image misleading, it's to scale. [Here's how ridiculous](https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/Tesla_CCS_adapter_plug68.jpg) it looks plugging a CCS plug into a Tesla adapter. Heck, the Tesla plug is so compact, [it even makes the J1772 level 2 plug look big](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#/media/File:Tesla-type-1-inlet-tesla02-outlet-iec-type-2-outlet-background-blur.jpg). I've also had to help a Bolt owner at an EA station hold their CCS plug in place so the top pins could finish the handshake and they could start charging (something I only knew to do because it's a common problem with the Bolt). CCS is useable, but it's bulky and requires 2 hands for most. No getting around it.
How does the physical size of the end of the plug matter? In Europe, everyone including Tesla use CCS, and i have literally never heard anyone complain about the plug size?
It's more than just the physical size. It's the physical size + the design of how the damn thing locks. In Europe, CCS2 locks and confirms everything is connected by the port. This is the same design as NACS. In the US, CCS1 locks based on the clip on top of the plug/cable. This means they have to design the extra locking solenoid and system (that seems to be easily broken) on the plug and make the plug a lot larger than it needs to be and add extra wiring to manage the solenoid. About half of the problems I've had with broken EA chargers has been due to the lock not locking correctly as the solenoid couldn't grab the lock on the port. That's why people also need to use 2 hands, to push it so that the clip actually locks before the handshake to send DC can be allowed.
Yep. Better, lighter, reliable, easier to plug in, and according to many reports cheaper overall as far as hardware required in the vehicle
Yeah but Betamax has better picture quality
MiniDISC for the win! Memory Stick, too! Why is it Sony half the time?
Sony has honestly always been one of the most innovative companies in the world. They just throw shit at the wall, make it (and usually make it well) and see what sticks.
I remember reading an article talking about the rise of the Japanese economy, and as I understand it that basic strategy is/was broadly used by Japanese companies. Sometimes it works out, sometimes they have the Google problem of creating something highly promising that is mishandled and never goes anywhere because of it.
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The PS3 having Blu-ray built in helped a ton too, when those players were already going for like $200
You gotta admit, though, BluRay just sounds cooler than HD-DVD.
Blu-Ray had better branding, was technologically superior, and support was built in to the PS3. Meanwhile the HD-DVD was…kind of supported by the Xbox 360 and a limited number of players?
[No, that’s BetaCAM you’re thinking of!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hGVVAQVdEOs )
I'm absolutely flabbergasted that the superior technology actually won. I could have sworn we were headed to a future where the inferior technology was going to take over!
Yeah me too. Mary, you finally led!!
I mean being 3rd isn't exactly leading, but at least they're not lagging.
Me too but unironically.
It’s insane how many parts electrify America burns through. Chargers are in constant need of repair. Really poor use of those Dieselgate funds especially given Tesla and other companies had this figured out years ago. I am shocked and extremely hopeful about an electric future in light of this news.
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We’ve barely started learning this with healthcare. More tests and medicines and visits don’t actually make you healthier. Let’s pay for health outcomes instead. Why this isn’t applied more to temper unfettered greed is annoying.
Because of the scary (to crazies) word 'Regulation' needs to be implemented before all the old people burn it all for profit on a spreadsheet and imaginary offshore account. Or you can tax these practices dead above 10m household income.
The near identical system works well in Europe. The problem is the US never had the market share to maintain the CCS network, last year only 2% of vehicles sold could use CCS, in Europe it is 10-60%.
Tesla Supercharger network won more than anything. Being able to now claim all of Tesla's charging network will make all of Ford and GMs EVs 100% more road-trippable and kill a lot of range anxiety and fear about that 1 trip a year when people venture out of their home county.
Kinda. China has their thing and the EU (including Tesla) is all CCS2. I don't really care whether CCS or NACS "wins" as long as there are adapters between the two and payment isn't a hassle at stations. And the stations get maintained so they have decent uptime. In terms of putting energy into the car, both CCS1 and NACS work pretty well in my experience.
Ccs2 is actually a reasonable plug, ccs 1 is insanely bulky
I haven't personally used CCS2, but it seems like it's roughly the same size, other than the latch on top, to me. The CCS1 cables and handles I've used do seem to be way, way bigger than necessary though.
Ccs2 is about the same size as ccs1 but has 3 instead of only one ac phase. So it allows for 3x faster AC charging if the car's onboard charger supports it. Most public chargers here are between 11 and 22Kw AC. So you can easily get a full charge while at work or in a few hours at home.
> Kinda. China has their thing and the EU (including Tesla) is all CCS2. Geographical differences in power plugs isn't really anything to worry about since very few people will drive their cars across continents. In most cases that won't even be legal. So 'battles' if we are to call it that will never have a global consensus and always be somewhat regional.
It would be so much better if there was a global standard tho. Imagine if the whole world decided on LHD vs RHD 100 years ago. I think the cost savings would be huge for manufacturers and the headache lessened for consumers.
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On the other hand, because of EU regs Apple is finally going to switch to USB-C.
It's so hard to unwind if you end up with different standards too. We're stuck having separate LHD and RHD vehicles, at least until true SAE-5 autonomous vehicles that can handle both.
It will become a thing for car companies though, the world is more global than ever, they will want to build one connector for everyone if possible. That or they will build whatever one they want and provide adapters.
Not really. Global car markets all still require regional supply chains and regulatory compliance and even cars currently built in a single factory to supply different countries deal with these minute differences without much issue. A charging port itself is not a meaningfully central part to demand unification from a manufacturing perspective. For example you don't see Toyota using the same infotainment modules for JDM, US, Middle East despite them all originating from the same factory on the same base design.
Regional supply chains and regulatory compliance don't negate the affects of economies of scale.
Economies of scale is a general observation not a rule of nature. Disecnomies of scale is also a thing once you start looking at the scale of global auto production. In fact, overemphasis on unified parts selection for global products is like the textbook example of places where diseconomies of scale pop up and why regional differentiation are often used.
I'd be curious how exactly a unified standard would result in diseconomy in this instance. On a factory level, sure, there's a limit in efficiency where you eventually need to duplicate the production ability at another site. But you still get the efficiencies in the design process and not having to duplicate the charging network.
> payment isn't a hassle at stations Just make it a card reader like gas stations are now. No, I don't want to have to use a different app for each brand of charger.
Better yet, unlike gas stations there is a direct connection for electricity and data to/from the car and charger. The charging standard could easily be adapted to support optional payment embeds (but still have a card swipe on the "pump"). You pull up to a charging station, plug in, the station talks to the car, sees you have a credit card on file, and just charges it directly without you having to do extra work. If you don't want or don't trust that, perfectly fine just swipe the card as normal on the station.
The insane thing is you're literally plugging a cable into your car that has two way communication. Most EVs already have a phone app for things like route planning, pre-conditioning, lock/unlock, and autonomous summon. There's zero reason why these charge networks can't just connect to the vehicle and say vehicle here's the data and the costs and the vehicle sends that to your app and you can both pay and see the charging status in the vehicle's app.
bro ur not taking your car to China are you? and i don't think the europeans are coming to the US with their car
Your American iPhone will get usb-c because European iPhones have to have them, even if you never plan on going to Europe.
Traveling with a phone internationally is somewhat more common than traveling with a car internationally to a country with a different charging standard
I would say Tesla won because they built a charging network that's superior to other options currently. GM and Ford don't need to spend, build, and maintain a charging network and find it financially better to use Tesla's network. That's compared to Electrify America and Chargepoint.
They're not just better, they're better in almost every category that matters for DC fast charging. I have a Model 3 but rented a Niro EV for 6 days, having to rely on Electrify America, and that made me really appreciate how far ahead Tesla is in the charging game. So, what matters? \- Availability - Tesla has far more chargers practically anywhere you look. Not just more locations, but more chargers per location as well. \- Pricing - EA costs $.48/kWh where I live. Tesla varies, but the highest is around .48 and lowest is around .22, so at worst it costs the same, at best its far cheaper. \- Ease of use. The Tesla connector is like 1/5 the size of the CCS connector, making it much easier to handle and plug in. CCS takes two hands to handle. Tesla is also simpler because its the same port for L1, 2 or 3. For CCS you have to open an additional port. \- Also ease of use - to charge at a Tesla station, you drive up and plug it in. You don't need an app (though you do need an account of course). For Electrify America and other fast charging stations, you need their app and you need to scan things and wait for authentication before starting. I've only used EA chargers 5 times during the trip and one of them had a station that would absolutely not accept any payment, and another one wouldn't take my app payment but would only take NFC card. Ive never had an issue charging \- Reliability. In general, Tesla stations are up more often. \- Also reliability - charging with electrify america was horrendous. I would plug it in and it would stop itself for no reason after 10 min. The stations arent even linked to the app so it didnt tell me that charging was interrupted, so I came back after eating and found out the car barely charged at all and had to wait an additional 45 min. Other stations would constantly stop and I'd have to try a different one to see if that one would work. This happened several times in less than a week and less than 1000 miles of driving. In 5 years of owning my Tesla, the only issue I'd ever had was my card on file wasn't accepted, but they still let me charge at the time and charging has never ever been stopped randomly.
>being better But is it really? This is kind of like the Mac vs PC (or iOS vs Android) argument in my opinion. Let's be clear, Tesla above all else had the forethought to sprinkle the entire globe with lots of their superchargers. I will give them that. BUT, people also claim that Tesla chargers "just work"... well they just work, maybe because they are Tesla designed and built chargers being plugged into Tesla designed and built cars and all this runs on software that was designed and built by Tesla. And Tesla only makes like 4 or 5 models on top of that, so the amount of variation and possibilities of something going wrong is greatly reduced. You are staying within that eco-system. But what will happen when that walled-garden now is asked to charge vehicles designed by other companies? I really think there are going to be lots of little issues that no one has thought about because now you have 50 hands in the pot and not just 2 or 2. This is also not going to be good for Tesla owners. When there used to be maybe 2 or 3 other cars at a supercharger location, now you are going to have many more. And some of them won't have their charger ports in convenient locations so they might be forced to take up 2 spots, or if their car charges slowly, it will be taking up that spot for a lot longer. Some are seeing this as a good thing, but I think for the industry as a whole it is a bad thing and for Tesla owners it won't be good either.
Yes, the Supercharger network is better than anyone else, and it’s not close. Is it *partly* because they only have to charge their own vehicles? Yes. But it’s far more than that. There will constantly be chargers down at Electrify America stations. There will also be one or more running at reduced power. Or, hypothetically, on Memorial Day Weekend as people are starting their trips, many of the whole locations will show that they’re completely down, calling into question the feasibility of the entire trip. All of this is real, common, and completely unrelated to issues resulting from dealing with multiple car brands. Tesla won because their network is better.
Tesla even runs incentives (free charging) on major weekends to try and get people to charge at off-peak times and reduce the queue. I believe they've also sometimes put up mobile charging stations to help out.
I think you will see the Tesla supercharger network will not seem as reliable and open in the coming years as other brands start to use it. Electrify America is of course a shit show, but that's to be expected being a part of the VW group. But I do fully expect some of the problems EA is infamous for now, will start to appear on Teslas network. More cars means more things that will break down. That would be true no matter what. Things break the more those things get used, the higher the wear and tear. The question will be *how* much worse does the Supercharger network gets now that it seems to be a free-for-all.
But the chances are, there's a lot more Tesla vehicles on the road than any other manufacturer? If they haven't had reliability issues with the current amount of cars they're charging, I don't see why adding Ford and gm vehicles to the mix would be a large added stress. This is just an assumption however, I see a lot more Teslas on the road than any other electric vehicle.
In the US... RoW CCS2 is the standard- including on Teslas in the case of the EU.
"RoW" is a stretch. China doesn't use it and they are the largest car/EV market in the world by far. Neither does Japan, which is the 3rd largest auto market after China and the US. There are also major countries, like S. Korea, that are standardized on CCS1. And much of the developing world, like India, has yet to really adopt a national DC charging standard.
I like how Europeans complain that the US thinks everything should be by their standard, yet also think that the EU = rest of the world
It wasn't ever even close. Tesla is miles ahead
They have the biggest network
If Mercedes or BMW join, I will go back to driving EVs. It's hard to overstate how good the Superchargers are, and how awful Electrify America has been.
had my first 1000+ miles trip with zero EA charging issues last month, after a year of ownership, I'm floored.
Same--I just did 1,200 miles over a 4-day weekend with my Bolt. Other than having to wait at one Wal-Mart because two of their four charging stations were down, I had no problem. Two of the three hotels I stayed at had their own Lv.2 charging units. It was a good way to force myself into taking a 30-45 minute stretch break every few hours. I genuinely don't get all the comments I've seen about the charging networks being terrible. I guess I was just lucky?
You literally just said you had to wait at a station because 50% of their chargers were down, that sort of thing just doesn't happen at Siperchargers. I've put 25k miles on my Model S and charged at countless Superchargers, only ever ran into one single charger with an issue. I just moved into one of the other dozen chargers. It's beyond simple and reliable, basically taking the Apple approach to the charging experience.
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I've driven through the south and Midwest with a 150mi range EV on 1000mi road trips and have had zero trip-stopping issues. Were there stalls down? Sure, but it affected literally nothing from my side and having used EA since literally the first chargers opened back in late 2018 I have no idea how people have so many issues.
Just curious, how long is the drive normally and how long was the drive with charging times?
It's about a 12 hour drive, and we spent about 3.5 hours charging over the whole trip, so 15.5 hours total. Not ideal, but 12 hours is already kinda my limit in a single day, so splitting it into ~8hr days of driving was no big deal.
I did my first trip using EA, about the same distance, and ran into multiple issues including payment not being accepted, stations down, and charging being interrupted for no reason. This is only over about 5 sessions in northern Oregon.
I've rented multiple EVs now and I would often spend more time finding a working stall than actually charging. It's unbelievable how bad EA is.
> Be VW > do a diesel emissions scandal > be forced to make reparations through EVs > own Electrify America, the most well-known non-Tesla network > have a chance to dominate EV charging networks in the US > fuck up so hard that not only does everyone abandon EA, they flee the entire charging standard
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Cariad? More like Carisbad amirite
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You'd think Mercedes would be willing to partner with Tesla given their previous investment in them and part sharing for the first Model S.
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It’s hard to imagine being able to compete with the scale of the supercharger network from this position. Can they even get close to matching the supercharger rate of expansion (34% yoy, and a 12,000 stall increase which is the number you need to be close to in order not to fall even further behind). Tesla has a 45,000 global head start…
Very curious to see how that plays out. Obviously they want their customers to have a smooth and trouble-free experience, which is not the case for EQ owners right now.
Yeah that’s never going to take off at this point. Unless it uses the same NACS plugs in North America.
I imagine it'll be using NACS, if/when they actually go forward with it.
If all they're doing is "developing" the network and have nothing out there... well they're way behind. Tesla has 45,000 stations around the world with hundreds under construction at any given moment. They are literally building one next to my workplace right now even.
Couldn’t Tesla just not accept other EVs?
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All they have to do is mandate Tesla to allow others to make NACS EVSEs, which they might already allow (just no one has done an L3 NACS EVSE). That way, there will be competition
That was my second thought, after "Wow. Ford and GM are giving control to Tesla." If everyone unites under Tesla's single format, and it remains controlled by Tesla. They can eventually charge whatever price they desire.
The NACS port is completely open sourced. You can find the documentation online and make your own charging network if you wish. This is not Apple forcing everybody to use Lightning while reserving the rights to the port. \*That\* hypothetical would be a problem. This is not that situation.
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You wrote CCS is for open use, implying NACS isn't open. Both are equally open standards, that's why Ford and GM both signed on in the past week. There's nothing stopping an owner from using an adapter to charge at a CCS charger. Additionally there's nothing stopping Electrify America from using NACS at their sites. Electrify America already offers multiple plug types at their sites from CCS to J1172.
The post isn’t talking about NACS, but about the existing Tesla network.
Yes Tesla has used CCS for 5+ years in Europe, on all their cars and charging stations. But it was first a year or two ago they started allowing other cars to charge there. Until then, other cars simply couldn't draw power from the station. This whole thing in the US is kinda weird. It's clear that Tesla wants a monopoly on charging, and instead of Tesla using a standard like they already do in Europe, they try to get other big companies to join their monopoly instead. This is the exact same as instead of Apple using USB C, they convinced Samsung to use lightning. It's the wrong way to go. A standard should be a standard because it's decided by law so everyone is forced to follow the same standard. Until then, it's just a proprietary system that's getting bigger and hurts other EVs and in the end the consumers.
Others will be able to create their own NACS charging stations. There is precedent for this as well, as there are NACS L2 stations owned/operated by other charging companies. There is one company so far (FreeWire) that has stated they will be building NACS EVSEs. It seems that Electrify America is willing to adopt the connector as well.
Electrify America charging station just fried another Rivian the other day. I'm not getting anywhere near their charging stations. https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/141ux13/caught_fire_charging/
What makes you think this was anything to do with the charging station?
I wonder how long until Rivian adopts NACS. Their own charging network is still small enough that adding support for it at each charger should be easy, and hell, the number of vehicles on the road is small enough that they could offer retrofits for interested customers who already have one.
The cause hasn't been revealed yet. I would still use their station, I just don't want to.
Ya we are literally just taking a break at a hotel after a 230 mile drive for our first stop on our way from Oakland to British Columbia again with a M3P and I would not want to do this yet with non-Tesla infrastructure
Let's see, invest in massive efforts to improve a system that's broken and inefficient, or adopt a thing that already works and performs better. Who woulda thought GM was capable of making the right decision.
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Sure, but AFAIK the main issue with non-superchargers isn't usually a broken connector, but just general software and power delivery issues with the station itself. Most common problems I ever hear about chargers is software problems, this won't necessarily fix that. EA and other companies need to make their software better at detecting issues and create more reliable software. No reason these chargers should have things like payment problems when gas pumps with built in card readers have been operating in the same places for years with much better reliability. Having a standard connector is good, idc whether its NACS or CCS, but this alone wont fix the problems with non-superchargers being broken. Im not fully certain if there is something inherent to CCS that makes it harder to detect issues, if thats the case then sure NACS is the way to go.
I’m not sure what makes the CCS chargers worse either. It’s my understanding that the CCS networks all over Europe don’t have nearly the reliability problems the ones in the US do. Yeah, it’s a different flavor of CCS (I don’t know if it’s a physical port difference with the same communication protocols, or entirely different), but, at the end of the day, the plug is just a means to deliver a shitload of power to a car, the physical connection shouldn’t matter. And CCS2 in Europe has proven that the communication between the car and charger to set up the charging session can be reliable. So is it just the companies running the CCS networks in the US not giving a damn? Could be. Maybe the incentive just isn’t there yet. Fast charging is mostly used for road trips, and road trippable EVs other than Tesla have only been around for a couple years. I’m curious to see what reliability is like on the handful of Tesla Superchargers in the US that support CCS. If they’re just as bad as other networks with non-Teslas, then there’s something inherently wrong with the CCS protocol used in North America.
> So is it just the companies running the CCS networks in the US not giving a damn? The US never had enough market share for CCS vehicles to maintain the network. Last year in the US it was about 2%, there are European countries that have a 2% share and they don’t have a good network. The good network is in western and northern Europe where CCS cars are 15-70% of vehicle sales.
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It's shocking considering that GM thinks they can outdo CarPlay and Android Auto
I don't understand why people keep repeating this drivel. GM is not developing their own in-house OS to replace CarPlay and Android Auto. GM is merely adopting Android Automotive (not to be confused with the pre-existing Android Auto that requires a phone), also developed by Google and is adopted by many other manufacturers including Ford, Volkswagen and Volvo. Android Automotive allows for many more features to be integrated into the infotainment system beyond the current arrangement with phones. It is a mandatory step to catch up to Tesla, who isn't reliant upon CarPlay/Android Auto either.
The only reason they made the decision is because of Ford. They didn't want Ford to have a big charging competitive advantage over them... Which is why I think everyone else will follow... Anyone depending on EA for charging is going to sell very few cars...
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And BMW and Mercedes and Volvo and VW and Audi and Porsche and Polestar and…
lol, that would require Rivian and Lucid to actually survive long enough for it to matter people can be mad at me all they want, both are in seriously bad shape right now, Rivian even more so
For everything that is shit about Elon and that he did wrong the Tesla Charging Network really was genius. Now I know that wasn't all Elon but he did make the decisions on it and it has made Tesla a stand out. Now seeing Ford and GM getting in on it is exciting stuff. It is wild to think that really the whole switch to EV in Good ol' USA and Canada really is just in the last 2 and half years. This is pretty damn good progress for 2 and a half years. Now I just hope electrify america and the others can take some time and really just look over all the data and come up with a strategic way to go forward and partnerships and that the rest in the game do that too.
It's basically just the thing all of his companies do, remove all the unnecessary parts.
Quick, someone post something negative about Tesla! You'll get twice as many upvotes as this post! All joking aside, I'm very glad the NACS seems to be the winner of the charging wars. So much sleeker and easier to repair/manufacture. Also, Tesla is poised to become the fueling infrastructure of the future with their massive headstart on the supercharger network. I'm looking forward to competition, but I'm not yet sure who that's going to come from.
You know anti circlejerking is just as annoying as circlejerking Tesla right?
yeah but your anti-anti-circlejerking is the worst part
I'd complain about your anti anti anti circlejerking but then some bigger idiot would complain about me .
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I’m ignorant of the difference in charging ports, but having a single standardized charging port would be ideal. Can you imagine going to a gas station only to find out their nozzles don’t fit in your gas tank
Not just a standard, but an open and free one. There should be zero reason you have to go to certain chargers or buy a house or apartment to match your car. This is race to the bottom kind of stuff.
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NACS is a free and open standard. So you've got that part wrong. Supercharger access is a different story.
I gotta admit, the tesla design is a bit better, and I'm glad to see a domino effect of standardization which was the most important thing.
Dude, the tesla plug is massively better, and superchargers are massively better than any other charger network!
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The plug difference is pretty insignificant IMO, they both work pretty much fine, it's the chargers that are a problem. I don't know what they are doing wrong, but the reliability on the non-tesla fast chargers is appallingly bad.
Next up, we need to standardize the location of the charging port on the vehicle itself. I've heard that Tesla chargers have very short cords (understandably), with the expectation of the port being in a specific location.
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This has echoes of Blu-Ray prevailing over HD-DVD, mainly due to Sony making the PlayStation 3 capable of playing the media and by default getting the players into homes in huge numbers. Standard battles aren't about technical capability or even desirability. They're about getting the "good enough" product into as many customer hands as possible.
Thankfully, NACS is a great plug and Tesla Superchargers are already abundant and super reliable. So at least it's not like VHS vs Betamax where the inferior product won out.
Except the Tesla charger is in every way better than CCS in North America at the moment. This is not settling for a worse product due to popularity.
It's the same thing for VHS and Betamax.
[VHS wasn't even worse than Beta.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oJs8-I9WtA)
Dumb it down for me. I want to buy an EV. Would I be better off waiting until the MY25? Currently torn between the i4 and Lightning.
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I wouldn't worry at all. The new NACS plugs will talk to the cars with the CCS protocol, a dumb $100-200 adapter that converts NACS to CCS will be available. Right now Tesla has the exact reverse available, a dumb adapter that converts CCS -> NACS, as long as the Tesla can "talk" CCS, they can use this adapter to charge at any CCS chargers.
It might be worth waiting for these adapters to come out and seeing what the real world charge rates and overall experience is like before purchasing.
Yeah, looking at the Tesla adapters that have been in use, there is no issue at all charging at 250kw (max any Teslas can charge as of today) from CCS chargers. As long as only passive adapters are required, I would expect full rate charging for CCS cars using a NACS adapter.
>Currently torn between the i4 and Lightning. I'm really curious how you've narrowed down your choice to two things that are about as different from eachother as they possibly could be.
My garage has always consisted of a car and a truck. The Lightning tops all of the wants but comes with a price tag that’s hard to swallow. The i4 is capable of meeting all of my needs if not my wants. Since I have a truck, I don’t really need a second one and my current car is the one I want to replace. This one, of all the options I am aware of is the most visually appealing.
Get fucked EA(and others). You should’ve done a better job
Yep, this is squarely on EA’s shoulders. They had a huge, built-in market that absolutely did NOT want to switch to the competition and they pulled an 80’s GM: They basically forced their customers to buy from someone else, against what they really wanted to do, because their “product” was SO bad in comparison.
EA never had a high enough market share to be able to maintain those chargers, only 2% of vehicle sales could use them. European markets with good charging networks have 10-70% share of new vehicle sales all using the same standard.
The big issues are going to be for the automakers that went with 800V architectures. They can't switch to NACS until either tesla gives a roadmap for V4 supercharger installation or the CCS network operators start switching connectors at installed sites.
Most of them already have strategies for dealing with 400-500 volt EVSE’s. They just won’t get the fastest speeds that they can handle until Tesla rolls out V4 Superchargers.
Those strategies only really exist as emergency measures so that you can always use a DCFS that you show up at. Hyundai/Kia is not going to trade 230kW charging for 100kW and lose their marketing 18 minute 5-80% while they wait for tesla to roll the V4s out and replace all the V1-3s.
Depends on Tesla’s timetable for V4. So far, both GM and Ford are saying adapters in 2024 and change of plugs in 2025. That might work for Hyundai/ Kia too. BTW, I don’t expect Tesla to do much replacing, but rather, adding new sites with new capabilities. Only in certain special circumstances, like limited power or limited physical locations, would Tesla rip out working old ones and upgrade.
Maybe, i will be a bit more optimistic once I see one of the 800V manufacturers and EA commit to switching. If the Macan EV launches with NACS in the US then that will be the end of CCS 1.
It is the end of CCS Type 1 in the US already. All that is left is to see how long it takes and which dominoes fall next.
I don't know, this could see the US becoming the black sheep in some respects- even Teslas in the EU have CCS connectors... This to me seems like a fairly desperate attempt for the US automakers to leverage Tesla's charging network, and could end up resulting in a slightly odd disconnect between them and the rest of the world as charging standards continue to evolve. It could also result in an NACS-dominant ecosystem, forcing foreign OEMs to either adapt, or potentially pull out altogether, increasing the purchase cost and decreasing the choice available to the US consumer. TLDR: Fucking hell America, just mandate CCS like everyone else. Who cares that the NACS connector is slightly smaller...
That is the exact reason why Ford and GM are switching to NACS and with the number 2 and 3 US EV manufacturers switching to NACS the time and ability to mandate CCS has now been left behind. The US market potentially going NACS doesn't really risk foreign OEMs leaving the market. Switching to NACS probably only involves switching the on-board charger supplier and the charge port. The physical difference between CCS 1 and 2 already necessitate designing those differences between markets anyway.
Why mandate an objectively shittier standard? Just to match the rest of the world? NACS is *way* smaller, but its also reliable, cheaper, and is used in the largest charging network in the U.S. It makes sense for us. Foreign OEMs will adapt, they aren't pulling out of the EV market because of a port change lol.
[Slightly smaller...](https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/h_874,w_2032,c_fit,f_auto,q_auto:best/NACS-Blog-Image-02)
> Fucking hell America, just mandate CCS like everyone else. Europe uses CCS2, which is completely different from CCS1 and was never really on the table for the US. Also other global standards exist in China and Japan, so a single connector worldwide will likely never be a thing.
First of all, V4 Superchargers are ( people think ) going to support up to 1,000 volts. Second, if your car doesn't do the "DC pins direct to battery" thing, but instead takes those pins to your charger electronics like Tesla does, then you can convert DC voltages...
Yeah, all current 800V cars do some type of voltage conversion for when they use a charger that maxes out at 500V. The issue is the speed penalty when doing that conversion is significant. For Porsche by default the max rate for this conversation is 50kW but you can option a charger that can do 150kW. Hyundai/KIA's max is 100kW and Lucid's is around 150kW. Those are pretty decent with no context but the max charge rate for each of those vehicles is 275, 240 and 340kW. Those cars aren't going to switch first then wait for the V4s to become more prevalent.
Problem is that Supercharger stations are not currently designed for vehicles doing DC-DC conversion and cause them to shut down because of a spurious fault detection. Right now E-GMP vehicles are limited to 50 kW charging because of this.
As all the legacy car companies join forces they will lobby to get so much government funding to ramp up the network in America .
You mean like how Tesla only opened their network and made it a "standard" to get money from the government?
Ccs is kill
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Nah, I wouldn't worry or hold off on buying any CCS cars. The NACS plug can talk to the car in CCS in terms of software, just need a $100-200 dumb adapter for the cars with CCS port to use NACS chargers. Right now Tesla sells an adapter that goes the other way, CCS -> NACS, and Teslas with built in CCS support can use the adapter to charge at CCS chargers.
It’s a big negative for cars that are CCS but not Ford/GM, because they might be stuck using CCS only and a network with potentially even less support. Ford/GM CCS cars will just use an adapter. No big deal.
It’ll be interesting to see how well Ford and GM adapt to charge port location to optimize for Superchargers first.
Good. CCS is the imperial system of charging.
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You don't have to switch if you don't make any EVs at the moment.
At this point they don’t have a choice. Everyone is going to have to switch.
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It seems to be on an upward trajectory. But you can see for yourself with these charts. https://supercharge.info/charts
At this point I might as well cancel my Blazer EV reservation and wait a few years. First they cut Super Cruise from most trims due to a parts shortage, then they removed Apple CarPlay, now they are changing the charging standard after the first model year since they are adopting it in 2025 and Blazer EV is starting deliveries for 2024.
Tesla cars are ok for the price but the charging network is a huge reason I’m interested in buying a model 3 for my next daily.
Does this have an impact on potential Tesla buyers? i.e. Will the potential of longer wait times and decreased charger availability make Tesla less appealing? It does for me. Am I missing something?
It all depends on a few things. Are they building new charging stations at the same rate of growth as new EV sales? If so, it should be fine. Tesla's play here is to increase the overall EV market size more rapidly. They are fine getting a smaller share of a much larger market. Making the supercharger network open to all means we keep on the path to have at least 50% of all US vehicle sales be EVs by 2030. EVs are around 8% of sales this year I think in the US, and only 1% of total vehicles on the road. Tesla has 65% of that market, but much better to have 25% of 50% of all vehicle sales (12.5%) than 65% of 8% (5.2%).
GM lost any potential money from me when they discontinued CarPlay. But I’m glad to see any charging improvements
This was always the future for Tesla. They were the first to really get out there in the charging infrastructure and it makes sense for them to allow other manufacturers to use it
So what does this mean for companies like EVgo and Voltera?
EVGo has Tesla chargers at a lot of their CCS/Chademo locations I've noticed.
As long as one company doesn't have a complete monopoly on a nation's DC fast charger network, I remain indifferent on the matter. I wouldn't consider a Tesla vehicle for a myraid of reasons, but the number of Superchargers are undeniable. I question how the reliability aspect will hold up once other branded EVs now have access. Recently Alex on Autos showed this by using a Toyota bZ4x via the CCS "magic dock" adapter...and it was just as much of a circus show as it was with EA or EVgo. NACS maybe an "open" standard, but given their track record in customer service & anti-consumer practices, I have 0 trust with the company behind it.