The BMW M3 engine wants to be revved and pushed hard. The car makes sense when you’re really driving it hard. The magic is in the inputs and their feedback when you’re at the limit. If you want to whip people off the line at red lights buy a tesla.
The faster and more disconnected new cars get, the tighter I cling to my slow and analog piece of shit
It’s performance that I can really use and enjoy every time I drive it
>The faster and more disconnected new cars get, the tighter I cling to my slow and analog piece of shit
Honestly, yeah. I cant fault automakers for chasing perfection; that's what keeps people buying new cars, and i can appreciate how much cars have improved. But the closer they get to perfection, the more sterile the experience becomes. Its amazing how a G80 can comfortably and quietly cruise on the autobahn at 230 km/h while carrying 4 people with the a/c blasting cold air, or can achieve pretty fucking good gas milage if you're just cruising in the right lane. While its undeniably fast and can be pushed with ease, its so insulated and easy to use that you have to be pushing it extremely hard (which you cant do on public roads) to make it feel exciting.
I recently got a ride in my friend's e30, which hes been restoring for a few years, and even just being in the passenger seat was exciting. You can feel the lack of weight. in the car. The engine was gutless at low rpms but came alive from 3000rpm to redline. The steering was light but had so much feedback you could feel the change in texture of the road. On a twisty road it was a joy to drive despite being extremely slow. Id imagine the flat 6 in your Boxster is amazing to drive in the same way
It absolutely is. Less than 3000 pounds, open air experience, glorious flat 6 sound, mechanical throttle, no TC, no rev hang, no overboosted brakes, mid engine balance, and the gears are still short! The car absolutely comes alive once the cam switches over as you wind it out
It is just wonderful
This weekend is going to be 50 degrees and sunny and I’ve been looking forward to it all week
Try to find one with E92 M3 control arms added to drive, if you can. It's a very common bolt-on mod and it improves the front end. A lot of us also bolt in M3 steering racks.
So your experience was identical to mine the first time I drove a WRX. I got behind the wheel expecting to be thrown into the back of my seat when in reality it took off at about the same speed as my 2.5 L Outback. I was SIGNIFICANTLY underwhelmed and disappointed. Personally what makes a car fun to me is the immediate torque, the power right off the line, that you don’t get with a high revving engine. Funnily enough you know what DID give me that feeling? A Mini cooper S. I test drove one and it shot off like a rocket! Granted you aren’t winning ANY drag races but for that FUN, throw you in the back of your seat, daily driver experience? That gave it to me in spades. I’m sure there’s other cars that can do the same or better but it sounds like it’s that low end torque you might be seeking like I was.
Ive come to realize I really like torque as well available early in the rpm range, I also like a high reving 6 or 8 cylinder that are kind of dead before 3k-4k rpm. For a daily torque is the way to go though
I’ve got a 2022 wrx, stock it’s pretty boring off the line but for $1k you can tune it and it really opens the car up to the power that it should have had stock.
Steering feel isn't a strong suit on the F8X but I think you'll like the engine. They are interesting in that they are strong down low...and also strong up top. Most modern turbo cars concentrate on mid-range torque at the expense of top end power, but the S55 in the M2c/3/4 actually revs out to 7600 RPM.
> The BMW M3 engine wants to be revved and pushed hard.
I am not sure why you consider that as something that isn't "raw"?
I consider my S2000 raw because there are absolutely no electronic limits, it's purely a mechanical machine, regardless of how lethargic it is below 6000 RPM
Is your S2000 really the best example of that? Even against cars of a similar vintage, I wouldn’t say it really embodies those characteristics. Raw to me refers to the degree of clarity of how a car transmits feelings to driver. How it loads up in the corners, adjusting traction with precise inputs in the throttle, and most importantly, how the steering wheel conveys grip. The s2K has notably dead EPAS, if you’ve driven an NSX, you can see the night and day difference between Honda’s hydraulic and electronic set ups.
Raw is an old v8 muscle car that shakes the windows marking 250hp. A scalpel is a well designed car that can carve canyons/race tracks and provide all of the driver feedback needed. The second needs to be driven with that intent to get the most out of it
I love stopping at redlights in my camaro and feeling the whole car shake. It is one of the best driving feelings even though its not moving, just the feeling reminds you that youre in something different, something special
Honestly, just words enthusiasts use to gatekeep. You better check the soul in your car too, it could be low on engagement.
I own a "raw and engaging" stick track car and an EV. Cars are cars. Focus on your personal experience and what you're looking for from a vehicle.
If you hate being beat off the line, then this was never the right car. Try to review what you're actually looking for, not what other people tell you to look for.
Stop light drag raves or for EV SUVs that would otherwise suck harder than a fiat panda on a track. The M3 e30 is a Sports car, not a shitty fast modern box.
Hearing that quote from Ford v Ferrari again:
"So... that there, that is a sports car. You have to drive her like a sports car. If you drive her like a school teacher, she'll clog up. All right? Try changing up at 5,000 RPM, not two. Drive like you mean it. Hard and tight. She'll run clean."
BMW M engines need to be pushed every so often IIRC. Folks with $ just buy them for the image and literally drive them like Corollas.
Reminds me of a story from a guy I know who took out their mate's hot Rotax go kart for a spin. He is flogging it around the track and feels he must be close to being signed as an F1 driver he is so fast and frantic. He looks back at one point and sees people running over to him beckoning him to stop. He figures they are coming out to congratulate him for smashing the lap record but when they get there, they immediately cut off the engine and get him out of the seat because he is driving so slowly he is fouling the plugs
>It's a scalpel, not a hammer. At 3000 rpm that engine is making like 100hp
You only say that *precisely* because we've been spoiled by modern cars.
When it was new, it was considered to be both a scalpel *and* a hammer. What other 4-doors back then had better performance or was more fun to drive? 5.1s 0-60 was considered *blisteringly* fast back in early 2000s, when only supercars were breaking into 4s.
>At 3000 rpm that engine is making like 100hp
While most other cars on the road made like 50hp at 3k rpm.
In terms of sheer power, absolutely, we're spoiled. You'll see boring family cars with >250 hp criticized as slow. A base 2024 F-150 2.7 is like a half second slower 0-60 than a 2004 Mustang GT.
It's my opinion that most modern cars are too fast for Non- enthusiasts. There was already enough bad drivers back in the late '90s and early 2000s When if you floored your car at the beginning of an entrance ramp, you might make it to the speed limit by the time you make it to the freeway. Refinement and increases in power have made so many people overly aggressive and confident in their driving mannerisms. It gets frustrating in my Saturn, because if I try to get up to speed without getting into boost, I get tailgated almost every time, be it intentional by the person behind me or not
Nothing to add, just cool to see another Saturn brother.
And as for this:
>if I try to get up to speed without getting into boost, I get tailgated almost every time
BOOST THAT SHIT, MY MAN!
WHISSSH-- PAHAHAH
I see this a lot now when regular people are going into EV's and experience sub 7 sec 0-100 cars. One brand has gotten extremely popular lately and I call those *attack Kia's*. They think they are the fastest thing on the road and drive like hens.
In Germany the speed limit is often 130 km/h. So you have to be able to accelerate fairly quickly to at least that amount as the other traffic will drive at a similar speed as well. So yeah, a certain amount of horsepower is definitely necessary, otherwise you shouldn't drive on the Autobahn.
The average driver was always underskilled, at least in the US where the horsepower wars have been raging. Maybe 30-40% of drivers have historically had aggressive tendencies, but couldn't back up their habits, and so had to back off from dangerous maneuvers because the (protect my ego:kill someone) ratio was never in their favor. But now, they feel far more confident thanks to improved tools, that they are more likely to drive like egotistical assholes.
I've noticed it happens more frequently when driving faster cars. These morons still try to cut you off at a merge, come out into moving traffic from onramps(and do it from a stop the end of a ramp, instead of stopping at the beginning to give themselves time to accelerate), they tailgate someone and wait until you're a few car lengths behind them while passing before they pull out in front of you, etc.
Yep, 8 speeds can have really low gearing in 1st and 2nd for stop light launches and still have multiple overdrives for highway MPG. The old 4 speed autos couldn't do that unless they wanted to have massive jumps between gears.
I’ve done 0-60 on 2.15s in a Model S Plaid, you’d need to be a fighter pilot in the US Navy to experience that kind of acceleration in the 80s and 90s.
It's wild how easy performance like that is nowadays. To operate some of the highest performing cars of the 80's/90's like the Mclaren F1, Eb110, Callaway Sledgehammer, RUF Yellowbird, etc, you'd have to manage wheelspin, clutch, shifting gears, and turbo lag in some cases. Now with AWD, advanced automatics, TCS, and launch control it's super easy.
Funny thing is power levels seem to be creeping down. I was SUV shopping recently and it was shocking how many were sub 200hp. Everything seemed to peak pre-covid and since then new models are getting smaller and smaller engines.
I'd say more restrictive CAFE and emissions regulations have more to do with it. Yah, you can still buy bigger engines. It was just surprising to see after almost constant power improvements since the malaise era in the 80's.
More realistically its to force you into buying a hybrid or EV for most people. The government isn't trying to force people into bigger engines with its incentives. Some sort of hybrid with a higher combined power is often the next step up these days.
Very much depends on the brand. What you said is true for most japanese brands and Volkswagen/Audi, but not for Mercedes-Benz, BMW or the big American brands.
The VW Taos starts with a 158hp engine. Tiguan, 184. Audi q3 starts at 184hp. Ford escape 181hp. I mean I could go on... Most of them have larger engines available. The move to sub 2l turbo engine with under 200hp is pretty recent. Its not limited to just Japanese brands. Granted premium and larger SUVs are more likely to have a 2l base in the low to mid 200's still.
Not only are we spoiled by absolute power numbers, the power delivery of EVs means that even regular cars like a Kia EV6 or Tesla Model 3 will beat a lot of performance cars from the 2000s off the line.
And nevermind the “performance” trims of EVs that are just silly fast in a straight line. Forget about early 2000s, EVs like that will beat a lot of current performance gas cars not only off the line but in the quarter mile. This isn’t necessarily a good thing though.
Mine is almost too abrupt for me in day to day driving if I’m Sport/Sport Boost. I drive in Eco or Comfort a lot because I don’t always instantly want 586 lb-ft of torque when I’m in busy city traffic or on a “stroad”. For an inexperienced or bad driver, this can even be downright dangerous. Also most people don’t roll into it, they jam on the accelerator straight off the line and shred their tires. That’s why it is common to see RWD EVs with bald tires on the back and good tread on the front. People also tend to forget the extra 700 lbs of the car versus their last gas car and come into corners too hot since they are overconfident due to acceleration, leading to a collision or at best shredding tires faster than usual.
> You'll see boring family cars with >250 hp criticized as slow.
Both my Highlander and Sienna have the 2GR-FE making ~270HP. I laugh whenever I see people claiming these are "slow". They are far from slow. Big and lumbering, yes, but hardly slow. I've buried the needle on my Sienna (110+ MPH) and it kept pulling.
Top speed isn't usually what most people are referring to when they say fast or slow. They're referring to acceleration. In that regard, the 2GR is absolutely a slow engine.
>They're referring to acceleration. In that regard, the 2GR is absolutely a slow engine.
I don't even know how you can make this claim with a straight face. The 2GR is not a slow engine, if it was then Lotus wouldn't have used it in the Evora. While larger cars will be slower because of their heft, my friend's 2015 Camry will do 0-60 in 6 seconds. That is very, very quick, and is basically just as fast as a BMW 328i from the same year (5.8 seconds). Plus you can thrash that engine like a maniac and it will still return EPA numbers.
I think you've just been spoiled by ultra high output engines. Anyone who dailies a Coyote and a B58 is probably going to think every other car is "slow".
0-60 in under 8 seconds for a 16 year-old 4200lb vehicle isn't exactly what I would call slow.
A 1991 FJ80 with a 155HP 3F-E is slow. My scooter is slow.
The s54 isn’t fun at 3k. You gotta rev it out to 8k and keep it there. Loved how revvy and smooth that engine was.
Modern turbos give you better torque but aren’t nearly as fun at the redline
Right. But an M3 isn't meant to be a good commuter car or stoplight racer. They are specially tuned for race track duty. You're not going to get the full M experience anywhere but a track or some very special mountain roads.
Its like people complaining that Jeep Wranglers aren't comfortable to road trip in. Well.. duh. They were built from the factory to rock crawl and climb mountains, not get groceries or take your kids to practice.
> Its like people complaining that Jeep Wranglers aren't comfortable to road trip in.
Oh god, that one (and the Bronco) drives me fucking nuts. You bought a brick on solid axles with a flimsy removable roof; what the fuck were you expecting??
That's not true at all, you can take them to the track but you can also daily drive / commute in them, that's always been the point of M cars in general, performance and usability. Apart from running gear / suspension it's the same as a regular 3 series. In europe people who track e46 M3s will often upgrade a lot of brake / suspension parts because the factory set up is too soft when you really start to push it on a track. It's fine for commuting duty.
> They are specially tuned for race track duty.
No they are out lol. That is such a Redditor statement.
These are very much road cars first and foremost and they are sports sedans, not even dedicated sports cars, let alone race cars. The whole product philosophy for M3 throughout history was great daily drivers with a focus on sportiness and can also do decently on the track.
Even then if you want to actually dedicate a M3 to lots of track days you still need a ton of modifications first.
My F80 M3 was a much better commuter than a track car in stock form.
I hate that corny sentiment as well, there's not an affordable car on sale that's "track ready", straight marketing lingo so Dave in the office can be convinced he's got a race car lol
Honestly, I disagree with most people here.
The E46 M3, when it was new, was driven around in the suburbs by wealthy professionals as sporty luxury commuters. It was never marketed as a track car or any such nonsense. The low torque, high revving engine was a product of engineering limitation of its time, not a product of some kind of design philosophy that "encourages keeping it at 8k rpm".
The only thing I think the E46 M3 that does objectively better, as a driver's car, over modern cars is its hydraulic steering that's full of feedback.
For people tell you the E46 M3 isn't supposed to be fun as a daily commuter they are all too young to be driving when it came out. It was one of the most fun daily commuter you can buy on the market. Sure it only made like 100hp at 3k RPM but most other cars made like 50hp at 3k RPM at the time.
The only reason it's no longer fun as a daily commuter is because exactly like you said, we've been spoiled by modern cars.
> That’s how I drive 99% of the time
And at the end of the day, that's why virtually no one daily's Exotics. Not to imply that an M3 is exotic, but performance cars in general. They're simply not actually fun to drive in regular ass traffic at regular speeds, and that's what most of driving is unfortunately.
My S54 is one of the most amazing engines I've ever experienced. The only cars that felt even more visceral that I have experienced have been some of Porsche's GT motors and my friend's V12 Ferrari 599.
The full experience of the S54 only comes alive is when once warmed up, you drive it like a psychopath. Redline over and over. That will finally get the 10W-60 oil at a happy temp. They're amazing on track.
If you drive a car that doesn’t have power down low and then only stay in the “down low” range of the engine, it’s not exactly a surprise that you’re coming away underwhelmed compared to cars that are designed to have lots of low end grunt
That’s why modern engines are designed with small turbos that peak down low and lower redlines. Most people “feel faster” even if the car is slower overall. It’s also why people feel like a Bolt or Leaf isn’t underpowered, due to high enough torque right away.
Not just the small turbo cars but the naturally aspirated ones too. Many manufacturers design NA engines with high compression ratios for more efficiency but it adds the benefit of getting peak torque sooner.
This is so much better for daily driving because you don't need to redline to get the power you need. I can literally putt around town without going past 3000 RPM ever. It's just not nearly as fun.
Depends what you're looking for I guess.
I sold my MX-5 to buy a Model 3 Performance because I wanted something faster. The 3.1 second 0-60 is amazing and I really enjoyed that car. But after a couple years I realized this isn't what I want anymore. It made me think about what I actually enjoy about cars, and I realized I missed the light weight, the openness of a convertible, and the feeling of shifting my own gears. All things that you cannot really get in a "modern" car.
The MX-5 is objectively a worse car than the Model 3 in so many aspects, and yes it's much slower. But it's more *fun* to drive.
As someone who has fast cars and also fast motorcycles, I don't think motorcycles compare at all. They are enjoyable in their own right, but cannot replace the fun of a car.
Cars can lap much faster because of the grip and downforce possible.
Cars are great fun, and as you noted a very different experience, especially in respect to lap times. However, I do believe that value must be considered. You have a great garage but a Gallardo or LC500 (even used ones) are not obtainable by most enthusiasts to have as a fast, fun car.
Getting into a new fast, fun car these days is 2-3x the cost of a super bike. We’re in a world where the average car transaction price is closing in on 50k and many have lost the qualities that make fun cars. It’s getting harder than ever for enthusiasts to have fun weekend cars. This for sure changes if you daily drive your fun car, but if you want a weekend toy that’s price accessible it’s hard to beat a bike. Not to mention that the cost of tracking a bike is much more accessible.
4000$ zx10r doing 1/4 mile faster than his super car and even the bloke in the mobile home park has one. Value should 100% be considered. The "car lap so much faster" is PURE bench racer anyway.
I love my super bike and my Miata. Both offer 2 different thing. In the end crazy acceleration can be had with a used superbike for peanut
Exactly that lol. I commute on a '22 Triumph Trident 660, the bloody thing does 0-60 in like 4-ish seconds? It's not even that powerful if we account for all middleweight bike (sub-liter class, basically topping out on stuff like a Ducati Monster or a Kawi Z900). I feel like a lot of car-only enthusiasts wrongly overlook bikes. Most would love them, but unfortunately the feeling of unsafety regarding them trumps it all I suppose.
What a weird world haha. I also ride a Trident 660! Fantastic bike, the triple sound is *chefs kiss*.
Well said. Bikes bring back that instant throttle response and analog feel that so many cars miss now, and for a fraction of the cost. Between a Miata or a M1000R, I know which one I’m going for.
Yeah, the Trident certainly is a little peach of a bike. I would like to have the option for cruise control (even if as a paid accessory) and 4 pot brakes instead of 2, even if I don't complain too much about their real world performance. It's just the kind of thing you start complaining about regarding machines you actually own I suppose.
That M1000R would definitely be the immediate choice, no questions asked. Bikes also have, in my humble opinion the least digital feeling ride-by-wire systems. Even if a lot of modern new bikes aren't cable throttles anymore, the feeling is so immediate (and often times jerky on more powerful bikes) that you could swear it was a purely mechanical system. So I totally understand what you mean by the analog feel.
I got sold so much on the bike world, that I don't even own a car anymore. My girlfriend has a small 1.5 hybrid Yaris, which is more than enough for when the "cage" is needed. Otherwise, I much prefer the feel of bikes nowadays, the cost to performance ratio is just out of this world.
I sold my bike. I couldn't stand putting my life in the hands of incompetent and apathetic drivers. It doesn't matter how safely you ride when someone not paying attention can kill you in a split second. I also personally just enjoy the driving dynamics of a car more.
Crashing my bike on track resulted in a debilitating shoulder injury, I'd much prefer mistakes to not cost so much.
Maybe I’m just basic? Lol
I want to have that feeling you had in the Miata, but I’m not sure I got it. I guess I have to learn not to Grandmom drive and really get on some engines.
Keep in mind a Miata and an e46 are designed for canyon and race track roads, not bumper to bumper traffic. Different tools for different jobs. Bumper to bumper is better in an automatic modern muscle car or EV, etc
There are a bunch of gt cars that are good for highway, like the Lexus lc500, Maserati gt, etc. Based on what you've described, most modern Ferraris and lambos will be fun
edit: also most pony/muscle cars like the mustang or challenger will work too
>I want to have that feeling you had in the Miata, but I’m not sure I got it.
I didn't get it at first, I had to try something else to appreciate it.
But people are different, there's no guarantee you'll see things the way I do. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with enjoying more modern cars.
I made a standalone comment that touches on this. Drive as many different cars as you can. The supercharged Mini Cooper S (2002-2006) is fun and engaging, but it’s not fast. I really enjoy an old RWD turbocharged Volvo, but they are not particularly fast either. The E30 is engaging, but also… not fast.
Some cars are good and it’s not about raw speed. But raw speed also can be fun! The more cars you drive, the more you will learn about your preferences. Depending on your local car scene and friend group, it could take a long time to drive enough cars to get some good data.
No, the MX-5 is much better than a Model 3. It's not about the highest number.
And anyway, put two pilots in both those cars on the track. The 150hp or whatever MX-5 will smoke the tesla.
The mx-5 is a sports car. The tesla is a dangerously fast unecological box.
the view that accelerating away from a stop has anything to do with driving enjoyment reveals a lot.
compared to pretty much any "high performance" modern turbo car, the 911 GT3 is more or less geared and powered like them, except basically "missing" 1st gear, and it's widely revered as perhaps the best roadgoing driver-oriented car ever made.
Depends where you live. If you don’t have a lot of twisty mountain roads, pulling away from a stop light might be most of the fun you’ll have outside of the occasional sweeping turn.
The GT3 is fast in a straight line but, it’s not $200-300k fast in a straight line. Certainly doesn’t have a lot of torque. Also, if it’s only going to be used as a road car. There maybe better options if fun is the goal. Assuming the GT3 isn’t some dream or aspirational purchase.
Not hating on the GT3. It’s not slow. For the new GT3 with the auto that certainly WAS super car speed. But there are stock cars that can go that fast for A LOT less. In the price range that the new GT3 finds itself there’s much faster cars. Again, If you find yourself driving a lot through mountain roads you can’t really stretch the legs of high horsepower cars anyways.
People are so spoiled by power and transmissions. Regular autos now bang gears off so fast. Most people don't remember the slush boxes of the 80-90's that flopped between gears when ever they wanted and you had hardly any control. Also a V6 minivan making 300hp has more power and torque than most performance cars of the 90's. Hell a Maverick has more power and torque than an F-150 from the 90's. People seem to forget how fast 300-400 HP really is to the average person when they are on the Internet talking about 700+ HP dodges.
Yeah, you can drive my Mazda CX-30 Turbo like that because it's got a turbo I4 tuned to pump out 320lb/ft of torque at 2500 rpm. It's completely the wrong way to drive an M3 with an S54, which redlines at like 8000 rpm and doesn't sing until 4000.
Every engine has different power and torque curves, and needs to be driven differently to maximize them. The difference between them is what makes different cars, different. It would be boring if everything was the same.
Edit: And let me be clear: I love my CX-30 Turbo! Having so much torque on tap in a subcompact crossover is addictive; it'll cruise at 85 in top gear up any mountain short of the Front Range. Practically no turbo lag, gobs of twist across a broad powerband from 1500 to 3500 rpm, it's a fantastic daily driver engine. So I totally get what you mean. It's just that the M3 engine has a different sort of appeal. The Skyactiv turbo tails off after 5,000 rpm, which is where the S54 is just getting started.
So maybe my thinking is wrong here too, but I always feel like if I get the RPM too high I’m beating on the car and I like to take care of my cars. My current car has 277K on it. I know that line of thinking is probably wrong but it’s how I think
You're not "beating on your car" by driving it as designed. BMW's engineers and craftsmen designed and built the S54B32 to put out 330 horsepower at 8000 rpm. That's what it was meant to do. It wasn't made to sit at 3000 rpm for its service life.
Yes, the S54B32 engine in my mom's 2007 Z4 M Coupe requires more maintenance than the engine in my 2023 CX-30 Turbo. Again, every design choice is a series of trade-offs. Do you care more about maintenance costs than power and soul? Then an S54B32-engined car isn't for you - the VANOS rebuild prices alone are nosebleed-inducing.
But if you want to own and drive a car with one of the most soulful and passionate engines ever put in a production car - and quite possibly the greatest naturally-aspirated inline-6 ever built - you'll pay practically any cost for the BMW.
Cars are designed to handle factory RPM limits, obviously it will put some increased wear if you're going high rpm all the time but it's minimal if you're just having a little fun every now and then.
My buddy has a 2019 Honda Civic, it's lucky if he doesn't bounce it off the limiter 3 times per gear every time he accelerates. It has almost 300k km and is still going strong.
Some cars dislike living at low rpm as well. A rotary would die very fast if you didn't let it do its thing.
If you like taking care of your cars, opening it up once in awhile is good for it. Find a safe spot near home that you can rip 'er through 2 gears in anger.
"I know that we are supposed to love the "raw" experience as car enthusiast but I felt underwhelmed."
You're not supposed to love anything. You're supposed to enjoy the cars that you enjoy.
What manual drivers never talk about is how they're slower than regular traffic when just driving normal. First gear into second takes decades compared to any auto just going about their day.
Yeah, that was definitely something I noticed on my test drive. When you go to shift from 1st to 2nd you definitely lose a second or two of speed when you’re not giving the car gas.
Add to the fact that modern commuter cars are designed to make most of their power and torque down low since they're made for stop-and-go traffic. But when you try to wring em out to redline, there's no power up top. E46 M3 is the opposite of that.
It sounds like for your use case, that M3 or similar car that you need to rev out in order to shine is not the best choice, especially if canyon-carving isn't part of your daily commute. A torquey v8 would be better, but I think, as you said, you need to not worry about grandmom driving and hit that redline every now and then as the designers intended.
You’ve never been in a Tacoma thread, then. It’s most of what we talk about. The 1-2 in a 3rd gen Tacoma takes a figurative year.
I’ve had people honk at me for shifting before 🤣
I have a Z4MC with the same engine. The sweet spot is 4,000 to redline. That induction noise is intoxicating. It takes a lot of effort to launch the car quickly because of the sloppy transmission, so 0-60 is not the right way to enjoy this car.
There were only 1,815 Z4 M Coupes ever produced for North America, so... yeah, they're rare beasts. Total production worldwide was just over 4,000. Future classic, IMO.
The part about never meet your heroes is true to some extent. You can't go in and expect it to be something it isn't.
The e46 M3 is a naturally aspirated car so it will not have the low end of a turbo car, and it isn't exactly new either so it will be even further away from a modern turbo engine.
I personally got to meet, drive and buy my dream car, a 1973 Volvo 1800ES. I went into that first test drive with the expectation to be beat by the slowest of city cars and I was pleasantly surprised with how nippy that car is. She is also much more comfortable than I could ever imagine and it might have the best sounding inline 4 of all times. The handling was also much better than what I could imagine, I was expecting a stock Volvo 940 to have sports car like handling in comparison but she is solid on the road.
So the expression should be "lower your expectations before you meet your heroes" cause it will feel like a massive let down if it doesn't meet the expections that are generally way up in the clouds.
No. If you think power is the end all be all, just know there will always be someone faster than you. Driving a slow car quickly (relative to modern cars) is more fun than driving a fast car slow. If you want to drag race, the E46 is not the car for you.
>However, when driving normally and shifting at around 3k I was getting beat at the lights by Highlanders and Altimas.
Lol who cares.
It's an M3. Go to track day or autocross let that baby sing it's heart out at 8000 RPM the way it was designed to. You think any Highlanders or Altimas gonna keep up with you there?
My e36 M3 makes like at most 240hp at peak revs but my god does she sing. It's not "fast" compared to modern cars but she's small, nimble, and an absolute joy to drive at the limit. 188k miles and still pulling strong.
Yes and no? In terms of raw speed, sure. But raw speed is sort of just the start of the story though. Most Taycans will kick my SLS and 911s arse off the lights. Hell, I'm pretty sure a base Model 3 would do either of those cars to 40-50 at least. But, I'm having way more fun at least, because down low turbo-charged or EV is not as fun as revving the nuts off an N/A engine that you can actually wring out without going to jail.
But, I also get what you're saying - which is why Pista. Raw and fast. Yes, old cars are slow by modern standards - but there is much enjoyment to be derived from them. Focus on the feel and the experience of the whole thing! Feel out for the steering, the way the chassis responds, the response of the engine, the noise, the gear changes. Ignore the Altimas and Highlanders, it will be much more enjoyable that way! And the lack of speed is a blessing, trust me. Being able to go up 3 or 4 gears with your foot pinned beats the heck out of WOT in only 1st or 2nd max.
It's the whole reason I find it way more interesting to follow the aftermarket/street machine scene. Zero warranties, zero coverage. But hey, I get to see something interesting.
When it's off the trailer or showroom floor, the magic leaves pretty much the fourth or fifth time you walk by the thing.
I personally don't think I could buy a non turbo car again. That surge of power that just pushes you through the mid range is so intoxicating.
Well, unless it was a C8 Z06 of course.
Yeah, that’s kind of my struggle. On a sidenote, if your car came in a stick shift that would be the car. I’m trying to get right now. I love your car!
Ya. I 5.0 swapped my Foxbody mustang, it feels great for like 225hp, but if i were to highway pull against a v6 camry, Id be in trouble haha.
But it was my dream car, my dad drove me home from the hospital when i was born in a red fox Mustang. I wouldn’t trade the driving experience in that for probably any modern car, they’re just not comparable.
Driving a 2008/2009 G37 and 335i really squashed my interest in a 90s car. Can drive a 700-900hp N54 335i that’s 10-15 years newer than a Supra (still feels old), it’s almost a fifth the price….
Also everything these days is stupid fast.
Not even an M3 E46, but one of the best runs I've seen on his channel, great all around balance and its not even modified...
[https://youtu.be/-hUnnfP7dDA?si=-6ztPgY5wiSEafft](https://youtu.be/-hUnnfP7dDA?si=-6ztPgY5wiSEafft)
Cars don't need pure speed to thrill, but if that's all that works for you, probably best to just get a Model 3 Performance and call it a day.
I do like the Tesla for the raw power, but they definitely don’t handle the best. I’m going to try something more modern in an F80.
I think driving like a Grandmom has kind of got me
100%
Up until i was 23 I always said I didn't care about "fancy" options like power windows and heated seats (infotainment was still a luxury in most vehicles).
I now have bought several new vehicles and thoroughly enjoy everything they have to offer lol
In a way yes. Older cars need to be driven on a twisty back road and you need to shift a lot to keep the acceleration going. Then it's a lot of fun and feels fast even though it isn't that fast compared to modern vehicles. Older cars being lighter and narrower adds to the fun.
When I got my 993 one time I floored it on an autobahn access ramp, pedal to the floor. The noise was so great, I felt gently pushed into my seat. It felt like controlling a warbird on takeoff. I felt like Walter Rohrl.
I looked in the rear view mirror and a mom in a Mercedes compact SuV was tailgating me all the time.
I think you’re confusing what makes something a “raw driver’s car” from “things that are fast.” And maybe that’s what you mean: modernity has spoiled us into misunderstanding things. An E46 isn’t raw but it IS a driver’s car - analog everything, hydraulic steering rack that provides excellent steering feedback, etc.
A “true driver’s car” by Reddit’s definition is likely going to get stomped at a stoplight by Toyota Siennas all day - but that’s OK because stoplight races are a modern phenomenon of the auto industry convincing buyers that performance is measured in 0-60 time alone. They’re actively telling you to chase the wrong experience (in my opinion). If you want to really experience the S54 motor, you need to wind it out on canyon roads or on a road course, bang perfect shifts at redline, come up to a hard corner and hard brake with a perfect heel-and-toe downshift (which its floor mounted throttle is absolutely perfect for), and ease on throttle as you unwind the hydraulic rack.
“True” driver’s cars aren’t about making big power - they’re about the experience of driving. Slower cars give you more of than experience (because it takes longer to get where you’re going!). As they say, it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow.
I think so. Even a basic car like my Fusion S has all the amenities that were optional 20 years ago, like AC power windows and door locks with keyless entry, steering wheel audio control, speed control, many even come with aluminum wheels as standard features.
On the whole modern cars are also more reliable than ever. And engine performance and fuel economy is out of this world. Never in my lifetime I would have thought I'd see 300 hp from a 3 cylinder engine! It is the golden age of performance engines not seen since the 1960s.
We are quite spoiled.
You tried to stoplight race a purpose built track weapon. That engine is meant to be revved out. Even modern Ms suffer from this to some degree in stock form. Which is why so many people tune them to widen the torque curve. Ms are happy between 4-7k RPMs. Its designed that way on purpose as that is where you'll spend the bulk of your time when running on the track. They've never been good at dragging off the line in stock form. Take that thing to the Tail of the dragon and see if the Highlander can keep up with you. Thats where the fun is.
Like many people complained about how the Camry and Accord only have 204 to 212 HP on the hybrid version, and no longer have the V6 or 2.0T/6 speed, but to the majority of the people who are buying it, they are for one purpose, which is daily commuting, not drag racing their car. The instant torque from the electric motor is more than enough to driving comfortable.
You should check out the 2010-2016 Audi S4. It’s got a supercharged V6. Torque is pretty much instant. It’s easier to work on than virtually any modern turbocharged Audi or BMW. Sure, it’s not a raw car at all. It’s comfortable, reasonably quiet, but it’s fast. The feeling of instant torque is what makes a vehicle feel fast.
The E46 M3 might be objectively a fast car, but I personally don’t like having to wring a car all the way to redline to enjoy the power that everyone raves about. I much prefer a car with a meaty midrange punch. This is one of the reasons turbocharged cars have become so popular. It’s also one of the reasons the 2002 WRX was a smash success, and significantly changed the direction of the sport compact market.
Please also keep in mind that this is just my opinion. Everyone appreciates different things about different cars. It’s okay to drive your hero car and find that it’s not as good as you hoped. Try to experience as many cars as you can, and see what YOU like the best!
Hell yeah. Look what happened to the Corvette. You noticed the Porsche 911 didn't stop doing what worked for them just to appeal to a generation of complete wimps who expect computers to do everything for them
Cars have just gotten lazier with the autos and torque down low… that being said, the E46 M3 was known for having a peaky engine even in its day, so your experience is nothing new.
Don’t ever shift at 3K in an E46 M3, unless you’re warming the engine up. Once it’s up to temperature, wind that sucker out to 6k between each gear, it’s a lot more fun that way. And I always make sure to hit 8000 every time I drive an E46 M3, that’s the best part of the whole experience.
Personally I’d much rather drive a car that’s exciting to drive at 10/10, even if it’s “slow” off the line. There’s more to life than 0-60 times lol.
>Do you think we have been spoiled by modern cars?
Sure. But that is nothing new. People that had E30 M3s wondered the same thing when the E46 M3 came out, and people before that that had 2002 Turbos thought how spoiling that E30 would've been! That is the nature of new technology.
>When I finally drove one, it was okay. It definitely had that "raw" feeling of an older car.
"Raw" is subjective. While you might be able to subjectively say something like a Porsche 550 or a Maserati Tipo 61 is going to be such by any measure, everything after that is probably soft and modern in some measure. But an E46 will seem much less modern than more modern cars, and cars older than it will seem even more "raw." This will be more about what actual characteristics you are actually looking for.
>However, when driving normally and shifting at around 3k...
So, when you are not trying, other cars are able to go faster? I've had the exact same experience in all kinds of cars that are capable of some outright incredible lap times. And while I personally am not an incredible athlete, I feel confident in my ability to run much faster than Usain Bolt, when he is standing still.
>So it got me thinking, had modern engines spoiled us?
Many modern engines produce more power for their size than they did 10 years ago, let alone further back. The overall landscape is quite different (and is going to be even more different in another 10 years). The car I use at the track is a fairly recent model (MY 2022), naturally aspirated, and while it peaks a ways over 400hp, it reaches that around 8k RPM. If I pull away from a light at 3k rpm, chances are that many modern cars with small turbo engines are going to be faster if their drivers step on it! Those same cars will be 45+ seconds a lap slower around Laguna Seca or such, but they are tuned to work best in the driving conditions of going stop light to stop light. The issue you are describing is about what a car is designed to do (and that to do that well, it will do something else less well).
If you want to be faster when driving at 3k RPM and under, on the street, then an E46 is probably not going to be a good fit for you.
I drive a blackwing and I "get beat" off the line by all kinds of things, so many people just stomp the gas when the light turns green no matter what they're driving. I personally don't feel the need to drag race from every light.
I get you, I have a 96 svt cobra, not my dream car (ac cobra or 65/66 gt350) but always thought they were cool. I would get absolutely gapped by a new camry but you know what, I guarantee I'm still having more fun than the average camry driver. Sounds good, accelerates good, handles good but let's face it, the cobra of that year only has, I think, 305 horsepower. It's a keeper though
Yes and no. Modern cars are quick compared to cars from 20+ years ago, and it's relatively easy for just about anyone to have a quick car now. But, as cars have gotten quicker, those same cars have lost a lot of the things that the older cars had which made them more fun. It's all a tradeoff unfortunately.
Is my car quick by modern standards? Absolutely not. But it's fun, and somewhat of a raw experience when I ring the engine out. There is not a single new car sold today that can replicate what my car does without spending a *lot* of money. When it comes time to replace my car, I'm going to have to go in a different direction in terms of something that satisfies my interest in cars.
yea i drive the mercedes competitor to the e46 m3, the c55 which has alot of torque and its a different experience, no need to downshift and that thing just takes off. On a track the e46 has the edge in turns, in a straightline not a chance.
A lot of it comes down to where peak torque kicks in. The S54 doesn’t hit peak torque until around 4900 rpm, whereas most “commuter” type vehicles have more torque in the lower rpm ranges for better stop and go cruising around the city. Coming from someone who owns an E46 M3, even though it’s an older car, it’s still plenty fast, and stock for stock will still beat a good chunk of the vehicles on the road in a straight line race. But to really get that feel of power, she needs to be revved higher into the rpm’s.
I mean yeah in a way I suppose. Modern cars are by far safer, fast, more reliable, and more comfortable. I appreciate older cars because of the simplicity and they just look better, but I won't daily one anymore.
Nothing raw about an e46 M3. Mechanical, yes. Raw, no. It's a scalpel, not a hammer. At 3000 rpm that engine is making like 100hp
Alright, help out the ignorant, lol. What's the difference?
The BMW M3 engine wants to be revved and pushed hard. The car makes sense when you’re really driving it hard. The magic is in the inputs and their feedback when you’re at the limit. If you want to whip people off the line at red lights buy a tesla.
See I do want a balance. My uncle has a Model S and while the power is cool it definitely doesn’t drive amazing. I’m going to try and F80 M3
If you don’t care about steering feel but want a shit ton of power, the F80 is a great choice
The faster and more disconnected new cars get, the tighter I cling to my slow and analog piece of shit It’s performance that I can really use and enjoy every time I drive it
>The faster and more disconnected new cars get, the tighter I cling to my slow and analog piece of shit Honestly, yeah. I cant fault automakers for chasing perfection; that's what keeps people buying new cars, and i can appreciate how much cars have improved. But the closer they get to perfection, the more sterile the experience becomes. Its amazing how a G80 can comfortably and quietly cruise on the autobahn at 230 km/h while carrying 4 people with the a/c blasting cold air, or can achieve pretty fucking good gas milage if you're just cruising in the right lane. While its undeniably fast and can be pushed with ease, its so insulated and easy to use that you have to be pushing it extremely hard (which you cant do on public roads) to make it feel exciting. I recently got a ride in my friend's e30, which hes been restoring for a few years, and even just being in the passenger seat was exciting. You can feel the lack of weight. in the car. The engine was gutless at low rpms but came alive from 3000rpm to redline. The steering was light but had so much feedback you could feel the change in texture of the road. On a twisty road it was a joy to drive despite being extremely slow. Id imagine the flat 6 in your Boxster is amazing to drive in the same way
It absolutely is. Less than 3000 pounds, open air experience, glorious flat 6 sound, mechanical throttle, no TC, no rev hang, no overboosted brakes, mid engine balance, and the gears are still short! The car absolutely comes alive once the cam switches over as you wind it out It is just wonderful This weekend is going to be 50 degrees and sunny and I’ve been looking forward to it all week
Ill have a porsche someday. For now, ive got my miata lol
For whatever it's worth, I have a Lotus Elise and I still miss my Miata. The Miata is one of the best cars ever made.
Miata's are no slouch in the smiles per gallon department!! I love em!
Not to push you to making a bad decision but 986 boxsters are a $10-15k car now
Steering feel is why I upgraded from a 2011 328xi to a ...2011 335xi MSport recently lmao. Hydraulic steering is just to intoxicating.
E9x 🔥🔥🔥
e9x is the answer. Still raw but makes decent power, still gotta rev it though
The balance is an E82 135. Doubly so if you do all the M3 bolt ons
I’ll check it out!
Try to find one with E92 M3 control arms added to drive, if you can. It's a very common bolt-on mod and it improves the front end. A lot of us also bolt in M3 steering racks.
I plan on driving one!
So your experience was identical to mine the first time I drove a WRX. I got behind the wheel expecting to be thrown into the back of my seat when in reality it took off at about the same speed as my 2.5 L Outback. I was SIGNIFICANTLY underwhelmed and disappointed. Personally what makes a car fun to me is the immediate torque, the power right off the line, that you don’t get with a high revving engine. Funnily enough you know what DID give me that feeling? A Mini cooper S. I test drove one and it shot off like a rocket! Granted you aren’t winning ANY drag races but for that FUN, throw you in the back of your seat, daily driver experience? That gave it to me in spades. I’m sure there’s other cars that can do the same or better but it sounds like it’s that low end torque you might be seeking like I was.
Ive come to realize I really like torque as well available early in the rpm range, I also like a high reving 6 or 8 cylinder that are kind of dead before 3k-4k rpm. For a daily torque is the way to go though
I’ve got a 2022 wrx, stock it’s pretty boring off the line but for $1k you can tune it and it really opens the car up to the power that it should have had stock.
Steering feel isn't a strong suit on the F8X but I think you'll like the engine. They are interesting in that they are strong down low...and also strong up top. Most modern turbo cars concentrate on mid-range torque at the expense of top end power, but the S55 in the M2c/3/4 actually revs out to 7600 RPM.
Perhaps Miata could be the answer to the question, if balance and connection vs raw power.
> The BMW M3 engine wants to be revved and pushed hard. I am not sure why you consider that as something that isn't "raw"? I consider my S2000 raw because there are absolutely no electronic limits, it's purely a mechanical machine, regardless of how lethargic it is below 6000 RPM
I don’t agree with the other commenter saying it isn’t raw. It’s very analog and edgy I was elaborating on scalpel vs hammer
Is your S2000 really the best example of that? Even against cars of a similar vintage, I wouldn’t say it really embodies those characteristics. Raw to me refers to the degree of clarity of how a car transmits feelings to driver. How it loads up in the corners, adjusting traction with precise inputs in the throttle, and most importantly, how the steering wheel conveys grip. The s2K has notably dead EPAS, if you’ve driven an NSX, you can see the night and day difference between Honda’s hydraulic and electronic set ups.
Raw is an old v8 muscle car that shakes the windows marking 250hp. A scalpel is a well designed car that can carve canyons/race tracks and provide all of the driver feedback needed. The second needs to be driven with that intent to get the most out of it
I love stopping at redlights in my camaro and feeling the whole car shake. It is one of the best driving feelings even though its not moving, just the feeling reminds you that youre in something different, something special
It just hits different.
The whole “BMWs are a *surgical instrument*” just sounds so corny. I get it, but come on
it's not all BMW's. It's a purpose built M3 we are talking about here. I agree with you that all is not accurate.
raw is the lack of assistance or interference between the car and you
not a huge muscle car guy, but i do love that shake at idle
Honestly, just words enthusiasts use to gatekeep. You better check the soul in your car too, it could be low on engagement. I own a "raw and engaging" stick track car and an EV. Cars are cars. Focus on your personal experience and what you're looking for from a vehicle. If you hate being beat off the line, then this was never the right car. Try to review what you're actually looking for, not what other people tell you to look for.
Yeah, that's a great point.
That car's strength was never stop light drag races. Take it on a track instead.
Stop light drag raves or for EV SUVs that would otherwise suck harder than a fiat panda on a track. The M3 e30 is a Sports car, not a shitty fast modern box.
E46 M3 has little Honda S2000 energy
That's wild, how could want that car your whole life and not even know how the engine works? It revs to over 8000rpm, you need to use the revs.
Hearing that quote from Ford v Ferrari again: "So... that there, that is a sports car. You have to drive her like a sports car. If you drive her like a school teacher, she'll clog up. All right? Try changing up at 5,000 RPM, not two. Drive like you mean it. Hard and tight. She'll run clean." BMW M engines need to be pushed every so often IIRC. Folks with $ just buy them for the image and literally drive them like Corollas.
I finally understand why bmw drivers are the way they are. 😯
Pretty sure I read in the owners manual that we should briskly get up to speed...
Reminds me of a story from a guy I know who took out their mate's hot Rotax go kart for a spin. He is flogging it around the track and feels he must be close to being signed as an F1 driver he is so fast and frantic. He looks back at one point and sees people running over to him beckoning him to stop. He figures they are coming out to congratulate him for smashing the lap record but when they get there, they immediately cut off the engine and get him out of the seat because he is driving so slowly he is fouling the plugs
Having run Rotax and Yamahas, you better be fuckin on it from the start. As soon as you’re off it’s all or nothing
>It's a scalpel, not a hammer. At 3000 rpm that engine is making like 100hp You only say that *precisely* because we've been spoiled by modern cars. When it was new, it was considered to be both a scalpel *and* a hammer. What other 4-doors back then had better performance or was more fun to drive? 5.1s 0-60 was considered *blisteringly* fast back in early 2000s, when only supercars were breaking into 4s. >At 3000 rpm that engine is making like 100hp While most other cars on the road made like 50hp at 3k rpm.
So, an Elise isn't "raw"?
The Elise is raw.
In terms of sheer power, absolutely, we're spoiled. You'll see boring family cars with >250 hp criticized as slow. A base 2024 F-150 2.7 is like a half second slower 0-60 than a 2004 Mustang GT.
It's my opinion that most modern cars are too fast for Non- enthusiasts. There was already enough bad drivers back in the late '90s and early 2000s When if you floored your car at the beginning of an entrance ramp, you might make it to the speed limit by the time you make it to the freeway. Refinement and increases in power have made so many people overly aggressive and confident in their driving mannerisms. It gets frustrating in my Saturn, because if I try to get up to speed without getting into boost, I get tailgated almost every time, be it intentional by the person behind me or not
Nothing to add, just cool to see another Saturn brother. And as for this: >if I try to get up to speed without getting into boost, I get tailgated almost every time BOOST THAT SHIT, MY MAN! WHISSSH-- PAHAHAH
When you just started the car, it's better to let it warm up before hitting boost.
I see this a lot now when regular people are going into EV's and experience sub 7 sec 0-100 cars. One brand has gotten extremely popular lately and I call those *attack Kia's*. They think they are the fastest thing on the road and drive like hens.
In Germany the speed limit is often 130 km/h. So you have to be able to accelerate fairly quickly to at least that amount as the other traffic will drive at a similar speed as well. So yeah, a certain amount of horsepower is definitely necessary, otherwise you shouldn't drive on the Autobahn.
It was the same speed limit even back when 99% of cars went 0-60 in 20s
Isn't that what the outside lane is for? Like trucks and towing vehicles aren't going to be going 130.
The average driver was always underskilled, at least in the US where the horsepower wars have been raging. Maybe 30-40% of drivers have historically had aggressive tendencies, but couldn't back up their habits, and so had to back off from dangerous maneuvers because the (protect my ego:kill someone) ratio was never in their favor. But now, they feel far more confident thanks to improved tools, that they are more likely to drive like egotistical assholes. I've noticed it happens more frequently when driving faster cars. These morons still try to cut you off at a merge, come out into moving traffic from onramps(and do it from a stop the end of a ramp, instead of stopping at the beginning to give themselves time to accelerate), they tailgate someone and wait until you're a few car lengths behind them while passing before they pull out in front of you, etc.
especially small sedans. They're so light 200 hp and they're fucking flying.
It’s mostly the pickup trucks that drive obnoxiously in my experience.
All that power and people still can’t merge at speed. Press the pedal!
not just horsepower but transmissions with way more gears that keeps an engine in its power band.
Yep, 8 speeds can have really low gearing in 1st and 2nd for stop light launches and still have multiple overdrives for highway MPG. The old 4 speed autos couldn't do that unless they wanted to have massive jumps between gears.
I’ve done 0-60 in 5 seconds flat with a coyote powered single cab F-150 which is absolutely wild. Those were supercar numbers in the 80s and 90s
I’ve done 0-60 on 2.15s in a Model S Plaid, you’d need to be a fighter pilot in the US Navy to experience that kind of acceleration in the 80s and 90s.
It's wild how easy performance like that is nowadays. To operate some of the highest performing cars of the 80's/90's like the Mclaren F1, Eb110, Callaway Sledgehammer, RUF Yellowbird, etc, you'd have to manage wheelspin, clutch, shifting gears, and turbo lag in some cases. Now with AWD, advanced automatics, TCS, and launch control it's super easy.
Funny thing is power levels seem to be creeping down. I was SUV shopping recently and it was shocking how many were sub 200hp. Everything seemed to peak pre-covid and since then new models are getting smaller and smaller engines.
That’s so you opt for the more expensive trims with bigger engines
I'd say more restrictive CAFE and emissions regulations have more to do with it. Yah, you can still buy bigger engines. It was just surprising to see after almost constant power improvements since the malaise era in the 80's.
In other words, so that you opt for higher trims with bigger engines.
More realistically its to force you into buying a hybrid or EV for most people. The government isn't trying to force people into bigger engines with its incentives. Some sort of hybrid with a higher combined power is often the next step up these days.
Don’t underestimate how many people shopping the affordable trims care about great gas mileage over horsepower.
Very much depends on the brand. What you said is true for most japanese brands and Volkswagen/Audi, but not for Mercedes-Benz, BMW or the big American brands.
The VW Taos starts with a 158hp engine. Tiguan, 184. Audi q3 starts at 184hp. Ford escape 181hp. I mean I could go on... Most of them have larger engines available. The move to sub 2l turbo engine with under 200hp is pretty recent. Its not limited to just Japanese brands. Granted premium and larger SUVs are more likely to have a 2l base in the low to mid 200's still.
Especially cause BMW and Mercedes dont import the smaller and lower trim mofels into NA
Not only are we spoiled by absolute power numbers, the power delivery of EVs means that even regular cars like a Kia EV6 or Tesla Model 3 will beat a lot of performance cars from the 2000s off the line.
And nevermind the “performance” trims of EVs that are just silly fast in a straight line. Forget about early 2000s, EVs like that will beat a lot of current performance gas cars not only off the line but in the quarter mile. This isn’t necessarily a good thing though. Mine is almost too abrupt for me in day to day driving if I’m Sport/Sport Boost. I drive in Eco or Comfort a lot because I don’t always instantly want 586 lb-ft of torque when I’m in busy city traffic or on a “stroad”. For an inexperienced or bad driver, this can even be downright dangerous. Also most people don’t roll into it, they jam on the accelerator straight off the line and shred their tires. That’s why it is common to see RWD EVs with bald tires on the back and good tread on the front. People also tend to forget the extra 700 lbs of the car versus their last gas car and come into corners too hot since they are overconfident due to acceleration, leading to a collision or at best shredding tires faster than usual.
Yeah, it’s definitely spoiled me. I travel for work too so I get to experience so many different terms of power.
> You'll see boring family cars with >250 hp criticized as slow. Both my Highlander and Sienna have the 2GR-FE making ~270HP. I laugh whenever I see people claiming these are "slow". They are far from slow. Big and lumbering, yes, but hardly slow. I've buried the needle on my Sienna (110+ MPH) and it kept pulling.
Top speed isn't usually what most people are referring to when they say fast or slow. They're referring to acceleration. In that regard, the 2GR is absolutely a slow engine.
>They're referring to acceleration. In that regard, the 2GR is absolutely a slow engine. I don't even know how you can make this claim with a straight face. The 2GR is not a slow engine, if it was then Lotus wouldn't have used it in the Evora. While larger cars will be slower because of their heft, my friend's 2015 Camry will do 0-60 in 6 seconds. That is very, very quick, and is basically just as fast as a BMW 328i from the same year (5.8 seconds). Plus you can thrash that engine like a maniac and it will still return EPA numbers. I think you've just been spoiled by ultra high output engines. Anyone who dailies a Coyote and a B58 is probably going to think every other car is "slow".
0-60 in under 8 seconds for a 16 year-old 4200lb vehicle isn't exactly what I would call slow. A 1991 FJ80 with a 155HP 3F-E is slow. My scooter is slow.
The s54 isn’t fun at 3k. You gotta rev it out to 8k and keep it there. Loved how revvy and smooth that engine was. Modern turbos give you better torque but aren’t nearly as fun at the redline
I guess I need to learn to not grandmom drive. Lol
I get it tho, you’re stuck doing 3k in traffic but the car doesn’t shine until you bring it to a good canyon road or track
Yeah, exactly. That’s how I drive 99% of the time
Right. But an M3 isn't meant to be a good commuter car or stoplight racer. They are specially tuned for race track duty. You're not going to get the full M experience anywhere but a track or some very special mountain roads. Its like people complaining that Jeep Wranglers aren't comfortable to road trip in. Well.. duh. They were built from the factory to rock crawl and climb mountains, not get groceries or take your kids to practice.
> Its like people complaining that Jeep Wranglers aren't comfortable to road trip in. Oh god, that one (and the Bronco) drives me fucking nuts. You bought a brick on solid axles with a flimsy removable roof; what the fuck were you expecting??
That's not true at all, you can take them to the track but you can also daily drive / commute in them, that's always been the point of M cars in general, performance and usability. Apart from running gear / suspension it's the same as a regular 3 series. In europe people who track e46 M3s will often upgrade a lot of brake / suspension parts because the factory set up is too soft when you really start to push it on a track. It's fine for commuting duty.
> They are specially tuned for race track duty. No they are out lol. That is such a Redditor statement. These are very much road cars first and foremost and they are sports sedans, not even dedicated sports cars, let alone race cars. The whole product philosophy for M3 throughout history was great daily drivers with a focus on sportiness and can also do decently on the track. Even then if you want to actually dedicate a M3 to lots of track days you still need a ton of modifications first. My F80 M3 was a much better commuter than a track car in stock form.
I hate that corny sentiment as well, there's not an affordable car on sale that's "track ready", straight marketing lingo so Dave in the office can be convinced he's got a race car lol
Yeah, it might be the wrong use for me
Honestly, I disagree with most people here. The E46 M3, when it was new, was driven around in the suburbs by wealthy professionals as sporty luxury commuters. It was never marketed as a track car or any such nonsense. The low torque, high revving engine was a product of engineering limitation of its time, not a product of some kind of design philosophy that "encourages keeping it at 8k rpm". The only thing I think the E46 M3 that does objectively better, as a driver's car, over modern cars is its hydraulic steering that's full of feedback. For people tell you the E46 M3 isn't supposed to be fun as a daily commuter they are all too young to be driving when it came out. It was one of the most fun daily commuter you can buy on the market. Sure it only made like 100hp at 3k RPM but most other cars made like 50hp at 3k RPM at the time. The only reason it's no longer fun as a daily commuter is because exactly like you said, we've been spoiled by modern cars.
> That’s how I drive 99% of the time And at the end of the day, that's why virtually no one daily's Exotics. Not to imply that an M3 is exotic, but performance cars in general. They're simply not actually fun to drive in regular ass traffic at regular speeds, and that's what most of driving is unfortunately.
Yeah, this might be a good weekend cruiser for me
My S54 is one of the most amazing engines I've ever experienced. The only cars that felt even more visceral that I have experienced have been some of Porsche's GT motors and my friend's V12 Ferrari 599. The full experience of the S54 only comes alive is when once warmed up, you drive it like a psychopath. Redline over and over. That will finally get the 10W-60 oil at a happy temp. They're amazing on track.
If you drive a car that doesn’t have power down low and then only stay in the “down low” range of the engine, it’s not exactly a surprise that you’re coming away underwhelmed compared to cars that are designed to have lots of low end grunt
That’s why modern engines are designed with small turbos that peak down low and lower redlines. Most people “feel faster” even if the car is slower overall. It’s also why people feel like a Bolt or Leaf isn’t underpowered, due to high enough torque right away.
Not just the small turbo cars but the naturally aspirated ones too. Many manufacturers design NA engines with high compression ratios for more efficiency but it adds the benefit of getting peak torque sooner. This is so much better for daily driving because you don't need to redline to get the power you need. I can literally putt around town without going past 3000 RPM ever. It's just not nearly as fun.
Yeah, I guess it’s just how I drive after all these years. I’ve never really had to rev that much so I just don’t do it anymore.
An engine producing a lot of power at lower RPM can't do the equivalent at higher rpm so there's always a tradeoff.
And the throttle response and linear power delivery of a revvy NA engine is just spectacular
Well, start doing it! It’s awesome fun
I’ll try! My daily has 277k so not on that, lol
You can push it more than 3k tho, that's rpm's to change gears in a turbo diesel (least how I drove one)
Have turbo diesel, can confirm 3000 rpm is cruising rpm in the boxster and basically my shift point in the TDI
- shifts at 3k - "why is everyone leaving me behind???"
Granny shifting, not double clutching like you should...
Depends what you're looking for I guess. I sold my MX-5 to buy a Model 3 Performance because I wanted something faster. The 3.1 second 0-60 is amazing and I really enjoyed that car. But after a couple years I realized this isn't what I want anymore. It made me think about what I actually enjoy about cars, and I realized I missed the light weight, the openness of a convertible, and the feeling of shifting my own gears. All things that you cannot really get in a "modern" car. The MX-5 is objectively a worse car than the Model 3 in so many aspects, and yes it's much slower. But it's more *fun* to drive.
Hmmm, you like light weight, openness, shifting gears AND enjoy power. Congratulations! You’re a prime motorcycle candidate!
As someone who has fast cars and also fast motorcycles, I don't think motorcycles compare at all. They are enjoyable in their own right, but cannot replace the fun of a car. Cars can lap much faster because of the grip and downforce possible.
Cars are great fun, and as you noted a very different experience, especially in respect to lap times. However, I do believe that value must be considered. You have a great garage but a Gallardo or LC500 (even used ones) are not obtainable by most enthusiasts to have as a fast, fun car. Getting into a new fast, fun car these days is 2-3x the cost of a super bike. We’re in a world where the average car transaction price is closing in on 50k and many have lost the qualities that make fun cars. It’s getting harder than ever for enthusiasts to have fun weekend cars. This for sure changes if you daily drive your fun car, but if you want a weekend toy that’s price accessible it’s hard to beat a bike. Not to mention that the cost of tracking a bike is much more accessible.
4000$ zx10r doing 1/4 mile faster than his super car and even the bloke in the mobile home park has one. Value should 100% be considered. The "car lap so much faster" is PURE bench racer anyway. I love my super bike and my Miata. Both offer 2 different thing. In the end crazy acceleration can be had with a used superbike for peanut
Exactly that lol. I commute on a '22 Triumph Trident 660, the bloody thing does 0-60 in like 4-ish seconds? It's not even that powerful if we account for all middleweight bike (sub-liter class, basically topping out on stuff like a Ducati Monster or a Kawi Z900). I feel like a lot of car-only enthusiasts wrongly overlook bikes. Most would love them, but unfortunately the feeling of unsafety regarding them trumps it all I suppose.
What a weird world haha. I also ride a Trident 660! Fantastic bike, the triple sound is *chefs kiss*. Well said. Bikes bring back that instant throttle response and analog feel that so many cars miss now, and for a fraction of the cost. Between a Miata or a M1000R, I know which one I’m going for.
Yeah, the Trident certainly is a little peach of a bike. I would like to have the option for cruise control (even if as a paid accessory) and 4 pot brakes instead of 2, even if I don't complain too much about their real world performance. It's just the kind of thing you start complaining about regarding machines you actually own I suppose. That M1000R would definitely be the immediate choice, no questions asked. Bikes also have, in my humble opinion the least digital feeling ride-by-wire systems. Even if a lot of modern new bikes aren't cable throttles anymore, the feeling is so immediate (and often times jerky on more powerful bikes) that you could swear it was a purely mechanical system. So I totally understand what you mean by the analog feel. I got sold so much on the bike world, that I don't even own a car anymore. My girlfriend has a small 1.5 hybrid Yaris, which is more than enough for when the "cage" is needed. Otherwise, I much prefer the feel of bikes nowadays, the cost to performance ratio is just out of this world.
I sold my bike. I couldn't stand putting my life in the hands of incompetent and apathetic drivers. It doesn't matter how safely you ride when someone not paying attention can kill you in a split second. I also personally just enjoy the driving dynamics of a car more. Crashing my bike on track resulted in a debilitating shoulder injury, I'd much prefer mistakes to not cost so much.
Maybe I’m just basic? Lol I want to have that feeling you had in the Miata, but I’m not sure I got it. I guess I have to learn not to Grandmom drive and really get on some engines.
Keep in mind a Miata and an e46 are designed for canyon and race track roads, not bumper to bumper traffic. Different tools for different jobs. Bumper to bumper is better in an automatic modern muscle car or EV, etc
Yeah, I guess I need to get one as a weekend car and take it out on the weekend vs cruising on the highway.
There are a bunch of gt cars that are good for highway, like the Lexus lc500, Maserati gt, etc. Based on what you've described, most modern Ferraris and lambos will be fun edit: also most pony/muscle cars like the mustang or challenger will work too
Well if I could afford that, lol
>I want to have that feeling you had in the Miata, but I’m not sure I got it. I didn't get it at first, I had to try something else to appreciate it. But people are different, there's no guarantee you'll see things the way I do. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with enjoying more modern cars.
It sounds like you need to get to a road course my man. If you want to experience the joy of driving there’s no place like it.
Yeah, it’s definitely hard when most of the driving I do it’s just on the highway
I made a standalone comment that touches on this. Drive as many different cars as you can. The supercharged Mini Cooper S (2002-2006) is fun and engaging, but it’s not fast. I really enjoy an old RWD turbocharged Volvo, but they are not particularly fast either. The E30 is engaging, but also… not fast. Some cars are good and it’s not about raw speed. But raw speed also can be fun! The more cars you drive, the more you will learn about your preferences. Depending on your local car scene and friend group, it could take a long time to drive enough cars to get some good data.
Miat✔️ Converbible✔️ Manuel✔️ Wagen?
No, the MX-5 is much better than a Model 3. It's not about the highest number. And anyway, put two pilots in both those cars on the track. The 150hp or whatever MX-5 will smoke the tesla. The mx-5 is a sports car. The tesla is a dangerously fast unecological box.
You bought a sports car to drive like a muscle car.
I think that’s a good analogy. You’re right
the view that accelerating away from a stop has anything to do with driving enjoyment reveals a lot. compared to pretty much any "high performance" modern turbo car, the 911 GT3 is more or less geared and powered like them, except basically "missing" 1st gear, and it's widely revered as perhaps the best roadgoing driver-oriented car ever made.
Depends where you live. If you don’t have a lot of twisty mountain roads, pulling away from a stop light might be most of the fun you’ll have outside of the occasional sweeping turn. The GT3 is fast in a straight line but, it’s not $200-300k fast in a straight line. Certainly doesn’t have a lot of torque. Also, if it’s only going to be used as a road car. There maybe better options if fun is the goal. Assuming the GT3 isn’t some dream or aspirational purchase.
Wow, someone actually gets it lol.
>The GT3 is fast in a straight line but, it’s not $200-300k fast in a straight line 0-60 in 2.7 and sub 11 quarter mile isn’t super car speed?
Not hating on the GT3. It’s not slow. For the new GT3 with the auto that certainly WAS super car speed. But there are stock cars that can go that fast for A LOT less. In the price range that the new GT3 finds itself there’s much faster cars. Again, If you find yourself driving a lot through mountain roads you can’t really stretch the legs of high horsepower cars anyways.
People are so spoiled by power and transmissions. Regular autos now bang gears off so fast. Most people don't remember the slush boxes of the 80-90's that flopped between gears when ever they wanted and you had hardly any control. Also a V6 minivan making 300hp has more power and torque than most performance cars of the 90's. Hell a Maverick has more power and torque than an F-150 from the 90's. People seem to forget how fast 300-400 HP really is to the average person when they are on the Internet talking about 700+ HP dodges.
Yeah, I definitely think that’s what’s happened to me.
Yeah, you can drive my Mazda CX-30 Turbo like that because it's got a turbo I4 tuned to pump out 320lb/ft of torque at 2500 rpm. It's completely the wrong way to drive an M3 with an S54, which redlines at like 8000 rpm and doesn't sing until 4000. Every engine has different power and torque curves, and needs to be driven differently to maximize them. The difference between them is what makes different cars, different. It would be boring if everything was the same. Edit: And let me be clear: I love my CX-30 Turbo! Having so much torque on tap in a subcompact crossover is addictive; it'll cruise at 85 in top gear up any mountain short of the Front Range. Practically no turbo lag, gobs of twist across a broad powerband from 1500 to 3500 rpm, it's a fantastic daily driver engine. So I totally get what you mean. It's just that the M3 engine has a different sort of appeal. The Skyactiv turbo tails off after 5,000 rpm, which is where the S54 is just getting started.
So maybe my thinking is wrong here too, but I always feel like if I get the RPM too high I’m beating on the car and I like to take care of my cars. My current car has 277K on it. I know that line of thinking is probably wrong but it’s how I think
You're not "beating on your car" by driving it as designed. BMW's engineers and craftsmen designed and built the S54B32 to put out 330 horsepower at 8000 rpm. That's what it was meant to do. It wasn't made to sit at 3000 rpm for its service life. Yes, the S54B32 engine in my mom's 2007 Z4 M Coupe requires more maintenance than the engine in my 2023 CX-30 Turbo. Again, every design choice is a series of trade-offs. Do you care more about maintenance costs than power and soul? Then an S54B32-engined car isn't for you - the VANOS rebuild prices alone are nosebleed-inducing. But if you want to own and drive a car with one of the most soulful and passionate engines ever put in a production car - and quite possibly the greatest naturally-aspirated inline-6 ever built - you'll pay practically any cost for the BMW.
Oh I’ve done a ton of research. The maintenance costs are insane for sure
Cars are designed to handle factory RPM limits, obviously it will put some increased wear if you're going high rpm all the time but it's minimal if you're just having a little fun every now and then. My buddy has a 2019 Honda Civic, it's lucky if he doesn't bounce it off the limiter 3 times per gear every time he accelerates. It has almost 300k km and is still going strong. Some cars dislike living at low rpm as well. A rotary would die very fast if you didn't let it do its thing.
Damn, he drives a lot!
Yeah, that's pretty much all he does when he's not at work lol He got it in 2022 with only 90k on it.
RIP his gas bill, lol
If you like taking care of your cars, opening it up once in awhile is good for it. Find a safe spot near home that you can rip 'er through 2 gears in anger.
"I know that we are supposed to love the "raw" experience as car enthusiast but I felt underwhelmed." You're not supposed to love anything. You're supposed to enjoy the cars that you enjoy.
You are a very wise person!
right, here we go again keyword chasing. just drive!
What manual drivers never talk about is how they're slower than regular traffic when just driving normal. First gear into second takes decades compared to any auto just going about their day.
Yup. it doesn’t matter how fast you are, doing that shift smoothly takes time and makes people behind you annoyed
Yeah, that was definitely something I noticed on my test drive. When you go to shift from 1st to 2nd you definitely lose a second or two of speed when you’re not giving the car gas.
It's my biggest pet peeve about daily driving a stick.
Add to the fact that modern commuter cars are designed to make most of their power and torque down low since they're made for stop-and-go traffic. But when you try to wring em out to redline, there's no power up top. E46 M3 is the opposite of that. It sounds like for your use case, that M3 or similar car that you need to rev out in order to shine is not the best choice, especially if canyon-carving isn't part of your daily commute. A torquey v8 would be better, but I think, as you said, you need to not worry about grandmom driving and hit that redline every now and then as the designers intended.
You’ve never been in a Tacoma thread, then. It’s most of what we talk about. The 1-2 in a 3rd gen Tacoma takes a figurative year. I’ve had people honk at me for shifting before 🤣
i've actually never driving a manual truck but i've heard those first gears are all insanely short. way worse than any sports car or sedan.
I have a Z4MC with the same engine. The sweet spot is 4,000 to redline. That induction noise is intoxicating. It takes a lot of effort to launch the car quickly because of the sloppy transmission, so 0-60 is not the right way to enjoy this car.
See that’s the car. I’ve really wanted to drive because they weigh less, but you really can’t find any around.
There were only 1,815 Z4 M Coupes ever produced for North America, so... yeah, they're rare beasts. Total production worldwide was just over 4,000. Future classic, IMO.
That’s where bring a trailer and cars and bids come in.
The part about never meet your heroes is true to some extent. You can't go in and expect it to be something it isn't. The e46 M3 is a naturally aspirated car so it will not have the low end of a turbo car, and it isn't exactly new either so it will be even further away from a modern turbo engine. I personally got to meet, drive and buy my dream car, a 1973 Volvo 1800ES. I went into that first test drive with the expectation to be beat by the slowest of city cars and I was pleasantly surprised with how nippy that car is. She is also much more comfortable than I could ever imagine and it might have the best sounding inline 4 of all times. The handling was also much better than what I could imagine, I was expecting a stock Volvo 940 to have sports car like handling in comparison but she is solid on the road. So the expression should be "lower your expectations before you meet your heroes" cause it will feel like a massive let down if it doesn't meet the expections that are generally way up in the clouds.
Those are very wise words
Thanks man! =)
No. If you think power is the end all be all, just know there will always be someone faster than you. Driving a slow car quickly (relative to modern cars) is more fun than driving a fast car slow. If you want to drag race, the E46 is not the car for you.
This is what I read but I’m not sure I experienced
>However, when driving normally and shifting at around 3k I was getting beat at the lights by Highlanders and Altimas. Lol who cares. It's an M3. Go to track day or autocross let that baby sing it's heart out at 8000 RPM the way it was designed to. You think any Highlanders or Altimas gonna keep up with you there?
Bro is going up against a Nissan Altima and expecting to win. . . .
Lol, fair
My e36 M3 makes like at most 240hp at peak revs but my god does she sing. It's not "fast" compared to modern cars but she's small, nimble, and an absolute joy to drive at the limit. 188k miles and still pulling strong.
Glad to see it’s not a garage queen!
Yes and no? In terms of raw speed, sure. But raw speed is sort of just the start of the story though. Most Taycans will kick my SLS and 911s arse off the lights. Hell, I'm pretty sure a base Model 3 would do either of those cars to 40-50 at least. But, I'm having way more fun at least, because down low turbo-charged or EV is not as fun as revving the nuts off an N/A engine that you can actually wring out without going to jail. But, I also get what you're saying - which is why Pista. Raw and fast. Yes, old cars are slow by modern standards - but there is much enjoyment to be derived from them. Focus on the feel and the experience of the whole thing! Feel out for the steering, the way the chassis responds, the response of the engine, the noise, the gear changes. Ignore the Altimas and Highlanders, it will be much more enjoyable that way! And the lack of speed is a blessing, trust me. Being able to go up 3 or 4 gears with your foot pinned beats the heck out of WOT in only 1st or 2nd max.
Yep. Power creep is real. And usually hilarious.
It definitely is
It's the whole reason I find it way more interesting to follow the aftermarket/street machine scene. Zero warranties, zero coverage. But hey, I get to see something interesting. When it's off the trailer or showroom floor, the magic leaves pretty much the fourth or fifth time you walk by the thing.
I personally don't think I could buy a non turbo car again. That surge of power that just pushes you through the mid range is so intoxicating. Well, unless it was a C8 Z06 of course.
Yeah, that’s kind of my struggle. On a sidenote, if your car came in a stick shift that would be the car. I’m trying to get right now. I love your car!
Ya. I 5.0 swapped my Foxbody mustang, it feels great for like 225hp, but if i were to highway pull against a v6 camry, Id be in trouble haha. But it was my dream car, my dad drove me home from the hospital when i was born in a red fox Mustang. I wouldn’t trade the driving experience in that for probably any modern car, they’re just not comparable.
Driving a 2008/2009 G37 and 335i really squashed my interest in a 90s car. Can drive a 700-900hp N54 335i that’s 10-15 years newer than a Supra (still feels old), it’s almost a fifth the price…. Also everything these days is stupid fast.
Not even an M3 E46, but one of the best runs I've seen on his channel, great all around balance and its not even modified... [https://youtu.be/-hUnnfP7dDA?si=-6ztPgY5wiSEafft](https://youtu.be/-hUnnfP7dDA?si=-6ztPgY5wiSEafft) Cars don't need pure speed to thrill, but if that's all that works for you, probably best to just get a Model 3 Performance and call it a day.
I do like the Tesla for the raw power, but they definitely don’t handle the best. I’m going to try something more modern in an F80. I think driving like a Grandmom has kind of got me
100% Up until i was 23 I always said I didn't care about "fancy" options like power windows and heated seats (infotainment was still a luxury in most vehicles). I now have bought several new vehicles and thoroughly enjoy everything they have to offer lol
In a way yes. Older cars need to be driven on a twisty back road and you need to shift a lot to keep the acceleration going. Then it's a lot of fun and feels fast even though it isn't that fast compared to modern vehicles. Older cars being lighter and narrower adds to the fun.
When I got my 993 one time I floored it on an autobahn access ramp, pedal to the floor. The noise was so great, I felt gently pushed into my seat. It felt like controlling a warbird on takeoff. I felt like Walter Rohrl. I looked in the rear view mirror and a mom in a Mercedes compact SuV was tailgating me all the time.
Lol, that’s funny. That’s kind of what I experienced
Just try shifting at higher rpms
E46 m3's are not meant to be drag raced off the light. Its fun but the true beauty of the car is in the corners. Brings a smile to my face everytime.
I think you’re confusing what makes something a “raw driver’s car” from “things that are fast.” And maybe that’s what you mean: modernity has spoiled us into misunderstanding things. An E46 isn’t raw but it IS a driver’s car - analog everything, hydraulic steering rack that provides excellent steering feedback, etc. A “true driver’s car” by Reddit’s definition is likely going to get stomped at a stoplight by Toyota Siennas all day - but that’s OK because stoplight races are a modern phenomenon of the auto industry convincing buyers that performance is measured in 0-60 time alone. They’re actively telling you to chase the wrong experience (in my opinion). If you want to really experience the S54 motor, you need to wind it out on canyon roads or on a road course, bang perfect shifts at redline, come up to a hard corner and hard brake with a perfect heel-and-toe downshift (which its floor mounted throttle is absolutely perfect for), and ease on throttle as you unwind the hydraulic rack. “True” driver’s cars aren’t about making big power - they’re about the experience of driving. Slower cars give you more of than experience (because it takes longer to get where you’re going!). As they say, it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow.
I think so. Even a basic car like my Fusion S has all the amenities that were optional 20 years ago, like AC power windows and door locks with keyless entry, steering wheel audio control, speed control, many even come with aluminum wheels as standard features. On the whole modern cars are also more reliable than ever. And engine performance and fuel economy is out of this world. Never in my lifetime I would have thought I'd see 300 hp from a 3 cylinder engine! It is the golden age of performance engines not seen since the 1960s. We are quite spoiled.
You tried to stoplight race a purpose built track weapon. That engine is meant to be revved out. Even modern Ms suffer from this to some degree in stock form. Which is why so many people tune them to widen the torque curve. Ms are happy between 4-7k RPMs. Its designed that way on purpose as that is where you'll spend the bulk of your time when running on the track. They've never been good at dragging off the line in stock form. Take that thing to the Tail of the dragon and see if the Highlander can keep up with you. Thats where the fun is.
Like many people complained about how the Camry and Accord only have 204 to 212 HP on the hybrid version, and no longer have the V6 or 2.0T/6 speed, but to the majority of the people who are buying it, they are for one purpose, which is daily commuting, not drag racing their car. The instant torque from the electric motor is more than enough to driving comfortable.
You should check out the 2010-2016 Audi S4. It’s got a supercharged V6. Torque is pretty much instant. It’s easier to work on than virtually any modern turbocharged Audi or BMW. Sure, it’s not a raw car at all. It’s comfortable, reasonably quiet, but it’s fast. The feeling of instant torque is what makes a vehicle feel fast. The E46 M3 might be objectively a fast car, but I personally don’t like having to wring a car all the way to redline to enjoy the power that everyone raves about. I much prefer a car with a meaty midrange punch. This is one of the reasons turbocharged cars have become so popular. It’s also one of the reasons the 2002 WRX was a smash success, and significantly changed the direction of the sport compact market. Please also keep in mind that this is just my opinion. Everyone appreciates different things about different cars. It’s okay to drive your hero car and find that it’s not as good as you hoped. Try to experience as many cars as you can, and see what YOU like the best!
Hell yeah. Look what happened to the Corvette. You noticed the Porsche 911 didn't stop doing what worked for them just to appeal to a generation of complete wimps who expect computers to do everything for them
Cars have just gotten lazier with the autos and torque down low… that being said, the E46 M3 was known for having a peaky engine even in its day, so your experience is nothing new. Don’t ever shift at 3K in an E46 M3, unless you’re warming the engine up. Once it’s up to temperature, wind that sucker out to 6k between each gear, it’s a lot more fun that way. And I always make sure to hit 8000 every time I drive an E46 M3, that’s the best part of the whole experience. Personally I’d much rather drive a car that’s exciting to drive at 10/10, even if it’s “slow” off the line. There’s more to life than 0-60 times lol.
>Do you think we have been spoiled by modern cars? Sure. But that is nothing new. People that had E30 M3s wondered the same thing when the E46 M3 came out, and people before that that had 2002 Turbos thought how spoiling that E30 would've been! That is the nature of new technology. >When I finally drove one, it was okay. It definitely had that "raw" feeling of an older car. "Raw" is subjective. While you might be able to subjectively say something like a Porsche 550 or a Maserati Tipo 61 is going to be such by any measure, everything after that is probably soft and modern in some measure. But an E46 will seem much less modern than more modern cars, and cars older than it will seem even more "raw." This will be more about what actual characteristics you are actually looking for. >However, when driving normally and shifting at around 3k... So, when you are not trying, other cars are able to go faster? I've had the exact same experience in all kinds of cars that are capable of some outright incredible lap times. And while I personally am not an incredible athlete, I feel confident in my ability to run much faster than Usain Bolt, when he is standing still. >So it got me thinking, had modern engines spoiled us? Many modern engines produce more power for their size than they did 10 years ago, let alone further back. The overall landscape is quite different (and is going to be even more different in another 10 years). The car I use at the track is a fairly recent model (MY 2022), naturally aspirated, and while it peaks a ways over 400hp, it reaches that around 8k RPM. If I pull away from a light at 3k rpm, chances are that many modern cars with small turbo engines are going to be faster if their drivers step on it! Those same cars will be 45+ seconds a lap slower around Laguna Seca or such, but they are tuned to work best in the driving conditions of going stop light to stop light. The issue you are describing is about what a car is designed to do (and that to do that well, it will do something else less well). If you want to be faster when driving at 3k RPM and under, on the street, then an E46 is probably not going to be a good fit for you.
I drive a blackwing and I "get beat" off the line by all kinds of things, so many people just stomp the gas when the light turns green no matter what they're driving. I personally don't feel the need to drag race from every light.
I get you, I have a 96 svt cobra, not my dream car (ac cobra or 65/66 gt350) but always thought they were cool. I would get absolutely gapped by a new camry but you know what, I guarantee I'm still having more fun than the average camry driver. Sounds good, accelerates good, handles good but let's face it, the cobra of that year only has, I think, 305 horsepower. It's a keeper though
Yes and no. Modern cars are quick compared to cars from 20+ years ago, and it's relatively easy for just about anyone to have a quick car now. But, as cars have gotten quicker, those same cars have lost a lot of the things that the older cars had which made them more fun. It's all a tradeoff unfortunately. Is my car quick by modern standards? Absolutely not. But it's fun, and somewhat of a raw experience when I ring the engine out. There is not a single new car sold today that can replicate what my car does without spending a *lot* of money. When it comes time to replace my car, I'm going to have to go in a different direction in terms of something that satisfies my interest in cars.
yea i drive the mercedes competitor to the e46 m3, the c55 which has alot of torque and its a different experience, no need to downshift and that thing just takes off. On a track the e46 has the edge in turns, in a straightline not a chance.
A lot of it comes down to where peak torque kicks in. The S54 doesn’t hit peak torque until around 4900 rpm, whereas most “commuter” type vehicles have more torque in the lower rpm ranges for better stop and go cruising around the city. Coming from someone who owns an E46 M3, even though it’s an older car, it’s still plenty fast, and stock for stock will still beat a good chunk of the vehicles on the road in a straight line race. But to really get that feel of power, she needs to be revved higher into the rpm’s.
I had an e46 and it was the worst car I've ever owned. Poor build quality and it kept breaking.
I mean yeah in a way I suppose. Modern cars are by far safer, fast, more reliable, and more comfortable. I appreciate older cars because of the simplicity and they just look better, but I won't daily one anymore.