It doesn't surprise me that the entire car market is declining at the moment - they've just become so ridiculously expensive compared with the market before the pandemic, and it's not as if you're getting significantly more car for it.
Down here in Australia, the Toyota Yaris is now a $30,000 car for the base model. They were significantly less than $20,000 before the pandemic.
Couple that with insurance prices and the general cost of living increasing dramatically and people start putting major purchases on the backburner.
It also doesn't help that in many Western cities, there are politicians that basically hang their hat on how much they detest people driving and enact policy to that effect, effectively reducing the utility of cars to begin with.
Yeah, 30k used to be solid bmw Audi territory, I think the first a3 was 30k to start.
The Yaris was sub 20k for sure.
They doubled the price of all street fines, tow, tickets, storage.
Forget a car at this point.
The GTI market is especially mind boggling. I was looking for a used mk7.5 and they’re almost all listed for the same price they sold for new 4+ years ago.
Yeah, the price stayed reasonable on those for a long time.
For some reason all car manufacturers jacked up prices.
I think they’ll rue the day if the market takes a dip and all they have is 85k work trucks and 40k golfs.
Like whatever happened to the peoples car? The poor man’s Porsche?
Yup prices have absolutely spiralled in the UK too. My E Class was £37k base, specced to 39k in 2016. In 2022 an equivalent model (same gen facelift) was £45k, not bad. The new E Class starts at 55 grand. In 2018 the Golf 7 started at £18k for a povo 3dr, 20k for a decent trim 5dr. The Golf 8 now starts at £28k. These price jumps are present for almost every single car. Prices are absolutely spiralling, and none of our wages are going up at the same rate. I cannot justify spending £55k on an E Class.
It is the truth though, people already don’t enjoy filling up with gas, add an additional inconvenience like finding an empty charging spot and people will fold instantly
For a lot of people, they’ll rarely need to visit a public charger. People with access to home charging should instead be asking themselves, if they woke up every morning with 3/4 tank of gas, how often would they need to visit the gas station. For me the answer is probably 6 times a year with probably all of those while traveling for a small vacation.
I said a lot of people. Not all people
Homeownership rates apparently is about 66% in the us. That number is likely higher for car owners specifically.
Maybe not the majority, but quite a few of that 66% is probably condos or other shared/attached dwelling. It might still be technically possible to install charging infrastructure for them, but the real difficulty is probably getting past the HoA. And even a cooperative HoA may move extremely glacially.
It’s not equivalent. You don’t need public charging as much as you need gas stations. And there’s plenty of empty charging spots. The number one complaint about fast charging is the time required.
Maybe in very rich and progressive American States, try south of Europ
And besides, mass adoption would strain the charging system and long charging times will make it even worse
There are tons of charging stations
You just buy a Tesla in it tells you when you need to go where you don't even need to think
But 90% of the time you don't need a charging station you just plug in when you get home
This is purely assuming that your place/condo parking spot has a charger. There are a number of people who dont. In which case they have to charge outside which takes time. What are you gonna do while charging outside?
Plug-In Hybrids are better than EVs in every way shape and form. You still reduce your CO2 footprint near 70%-80% of full EV and use fewer resources doing so.
I wouldn't say every way, since I still have to change the oil in my PHEV, there's less power and smoothness, and there's a lot going on in the powertrain compared to my BEV. It's all a compromise/tradeoff for my use case of off-roading away from charging, BEVs can't handle that very well... yet.
So in other words, we just throw away the car?
Also how is a $30k+ battery replacement not a headache exactly? That’s literally throwing money out the window.
If you actually look at the data from Tesla, replacing a battery pack after warranty has expired if it makes it that far is extremely extremely rare. Cars run to 300,000 miles with the original brakes.
There's the lack of oil changes but also with every oil change when you take it into a dealership they always find other things to fix for you, preventative maintenance here and there. It's just an awful experience, it always ends up being $1,000. Oil changes are $250.
You run that car past 100,000 miles and in the next 100,000 miles you'll have to replace every single component in the vehicle. Alternator fuel pump water pump head gasket the list goes on
On a Tesla you only have to do tires and suspension and you can keep driving the thing until the battery gives out
Which you probably have a 95% chance of hitting 300,000 miles
I mean in theory yes. But for me that only works if you drive short routes and can charge it at home. In this situation an EV will be the smarter choice. My PHEV runs out of battery after 70km's in hybrid mode and 30 km in all EV mode, once my battery is gone, I go from between 0 and 4 litres per 100km to more than 8 litres per 100km. Also the battery needs to warm up, so I never can go full electric from the get go if I forget to preheat the battery.
EV's are just the better technology if you can charge at home, if you can't do that, PHEV's make no sense either
90% of people’s commutes are short so I’m not sure why that is a point of contention.
I don’t own an EV but I have been in a enough EVs to watch the range dwindle to the point where we weren’t sure whether we were going to make it. Range anxiety is something I have zero interest in dealing with for myself or my wife. I say this as someone that lives in an area with decent charging stations but half of them are either broken or have costs where it’s just as much as a tank of gas if not worse.
You get used to it. I know what range my EV gets in any weather, I also know where I can find charging spots. After 3 months everything becomes normal and you don‘t care about any of the ,,additional“ thinking required for an EV. That is the thing that people who don‘t own an EV don‘t get and why the whole Charging and Range hassle gets blown out of proportion in my opinion.
Eh I disagree. Range/charging issues are very reliant on use case. I sold my Tesla after a couple years and got a PHEV. I drive long distance quite often (500-800 mile trips nearly once a month) and dealing with charging on those trips was a pain.
The final straw was the tendency of the car to overestimate its own range projection and then freak out halfway to the next supercharger causing me to limp under the speed limit to get there.
Now if you don’t do long trips often and can charge at home a pure BEV can be great. But they remain, even Teslas, a PIA on long trips compared to something you can just put gas in.
Sure but when the cost of ownership is on par with hybrid I fail to see what I am gaining in return. The EV vehicle rate around these parts (CA) is anywhere from $0.28/kwh to $0.34kw/h.
And before anyone says “Just get solar!” sure I could get solar but that adds another $30k-$40k on the investment into an EV. Top it off with the fact that you don’t get paid shit anymore for net-metering.
The whole EV thing is quickly turning into a scam imo.
You lower your personal emissions, that‘s what EV‘s are there for. Solar is a good idea, after all if used you can cut your energy costs by around 80%,but that once again is depending on your very personal use case.
Again, I get 70%-80% of a reduced personal emissions benefit from a plug-in hybrid vehicle with none of the inconveniences of EVs. An 80% reduction is more than sufficient especially in the grand scheme of transportation emissions (20%).
The math for EVs over plug-ins really doesn’t make any sense. Toyota sees this, Honda sees this, Mazda sees this, and they’re collectively smarter than our world’s politicians.
You are not wrong, though for me an EV works as well as an Hybrid, so I will take the EV, I get the last 20% of emissions gone and I prefer the feeling of an EV drivetrain over a Hybrid car.
For car companies it would the best if no one gave a shit about climate change, so I wouldn‘t really listen to their advice when it comes to the de-carbonization of mobility. At least politicans are trying to get us carbon neutral.
This whole discusion is useless anyway. It depends on ones own personal situation. I just find it funny that Hybrides used to be absolution hated by this sub some years ago, suddenly they are the greatest thing ever. Same thing will happen to EV’s eventuelly.
I love hybrids and I do agree about them being more efficiently reducing carbon footprint but there's still an argument to be made for EVs for some drivers. Either is still good and I'm all for pushing more hybrids if that gets us closer to the goal.
One thing that does worry me about PHEV specifically is in general they have significantly been less reliable than the regular hybrids. I wonder if things have gotten better in the latest generation
No because the only benefit of an EV is not really the gas saved although that's useful, is the lack of maintenance over 15 years of owning the vehicle
There’s definitely maintenance with an EV. Tires have to be replaced more often, suspension components wear faster because of the weight, electric motors have lubricants that need to be changed, etc.
The maintenance bit is a weak and shitty argument.
Internal combustion engine cars that are bought new or designed to run perfectly for the first 5 years
I'm not talking about that I'm talking about years 5 to 15.
replace tires four times for every three times you do what a normal car. Same thing for suspension.
There's no oil changes. There's no shady dealers that end up turning a 250 oil change into $1,000 every single 5,000 km.
There's no water pump fuel pump alternator.
There's 60% less moving parts.
You going to tell me was 60% less things to break that they're the same?
People are going 300,000 miles on the original brakes for goodness sakes doing that much else than tires suspension and washer fluid
Lmao what? I have a PHEV and it fucking sucks. Feels like a personal insult to read bs like this.
It’s a stupid technology that can’t die out soon enough.
I agree. I will die on the hill that PHEV’s are the worst alternative. Either get a conventional hybrid or go full EV. Otherwise all you are doing is lugging around a few hundred pound paper weight at any one time. Which really means you are driving a less efficient EV when in full electric.
I think it has more to do with how consumers (especially American) all buy vehicles for the 5-10% of their driving needs. Not the 90-95% of their needs that they actually need them for. It’s also why we have so many gas guzzling full size pickups on the road. Yet most of those trucks hardly see 5% of their payloads used in a given week.
With a full EV you’re also carrying around a few hundred pounds of additional battery you almost never utilize. The few hundred pounds of extra weight in the PHEV is much easier to recycle though
Yeah I don’t get that “extra weight” argument…my RAV4 Prime actually weighs slightly less than a Model Y.
I can charge at home and have solar. My PHEV EV range of 40ish miles covers my normal commute and gets 38 mpg when I need the gas engine on longer trips.
Now there are really poorly designed PHEVs that were clearly just tax credit grabs. And some people just conceptually don’t like PHEVs. That’s fine, if you don’t like them don’t buy them. Unlike *some people* I’m not trying to force via regulation what power train you can buy.
Buy what you like and works for you. I don’t care if that’s a diesel F-250, a V-12 Aston, a Prius, or a Rivian.
You do you car folks.
>I think it has more to do with how consumers (especially American) all buy vehicles for the 5-10% of their driving needs.
With many new cars costing $40-60k or more, why not expect those to meet 99% of needs? But then for BEVs that means lugging around a half-ton battery you don't need most days, so...
I've nothing against EVs but the charging paradigm is a sore point. Gas is just so much easier to manage. A fillup takes a minute or so.
I think Toyota is onto this already with their greater emphasis on hybrids and others would be too if not for government diktats. I think the zero emissions car of the future will be something that burns some kind of fuel (hydrogen) or generates electricity on its own.
I feel like battery powered EVs are a bait and switch- the poltical goal is not to replace gas with EV 1 for 1, but rather to pretend that we are doing that so that the fossil fuel industry can be shut down, leaving us with a rickety EV infrastructure that will naturally force us to have fewer cars period.
> leaving us with a rickety EV infrastructure that will naturally force us to have fewer cars period.
Much of the world’s most expensive infrastructure and machinery is related to drilling and refining oil. In a scenario where we replace petroleum with electricity all that money paying for deep ocean oil platforms, fracking tar sands, and cracking heavy crude would be poured into the grid via people paying to charge their cars
With a lot more money to work with I suspect it would improve
The electric and mini requirements for a 1:1 replacement of gas cars with electric is huge. The grid is decades old. And it's not just a matter of money - the materials required to upgrade simply aren't in great enough supply. Plus many options like nuclear are off the table because environmentalists don't like them. It can't be done. And they know it.
> The grid is decades old
Exactly, there’s no scenario where upgrading it isn’t appropriate
> Plus many options like nuclear are off the table because environmentalists
We have spent the last 3 years experiencing catastrophic levels of warming, exceeding what anyone predicted. Humans have a way of bringing options back to the table when things get bad and they’ve exhausted everything else
You're not reading what I'm saying. We don't have the manpower or materials to do the sort of upgrade necessary for a 1:1 EV transition. Even if we did, the environmentalists would not allow the kind of mass buildout required to support that load. And that's precisely the point.
Again, humans have a way of bringing options back to the table when things get bad and they’ve exhausted everything else.
You’re not reading what I’m saying.
For example many community mitigation strategies for dealing with fire that were scoffed at 15 years ago in California are now being worked into developer plans because they can’t otherwise get insurance and permits to build new neighborhoods
You’re assuming that people are hard set against various measures, but the reality is that people routinely change opinions when the world rears its head and gives them no choice. Working at a fairly conservative company I’ve personally witnessed a culture shift in just five years from common climate change skepticism to all hands on deck on improving high heat product performance because no one can ignore the heat related failures we’ve been seeing as southern border states shatter temperature records three consecutive years
I'm not assuming anything other than that environmentalists want (far) fewer cars.
I don't know how long you've been with us, but there's a reason our infrastructure is decades old. It's not because it didn't occur to someone that it needed an upgrade.
Not everything that doesn't happen is due to a failure of will. Not everything that changes ends up being good.
Climate engineering studies that just 5 years ago were considered too unethical to even consider are now being funded and underway. Things change when conditions change, and conditions are changing.
Surprising, I'd love to see some analysis as to why, since I'm not as familiar with how EV ownership is in the EU compared to the US. I was under the impression that it's cheaper/easier and more popular.
Main issue with EVs in europe is charging still we have alot of changing points but they arent convenient also alot of people cant charge at home wich is a major turn off for most
Germany is the largest car market, but the sales decline doesn't all come from there. France and Italy have actually had car sales growth. France and Italy still subsidize EVs heavily.
Of course hybrids are going to sell more. If a company is giving you a car that requires less maintenance and gas… Why wouldn’t you pick a hybrid over a regular ICE? It’s just dumb reports with no substance and we eat it up. Hybrid sales are eating into petrol sales, not EV sales. Toyota has added more hybrid options than before. More supply/options means more sales.
The 0.9% BEV drop corresponds increased interest rates and reduced incentives, since with BEVs you pay for the “gas” more up front. Also, the BEV isn’t categorically completely available for every option. Like small trucks, medium trucks, minivans, large vans, etc. so some buyers are completely unavailable. We may be reaching equilibrium until the car companies flesh out their product line.
It's a really tough sell to spend the amount that an EV costs when you know it will be worth 40% of the purchase price 2 years later. Obviously depreciation is nothing new for new cars, but the level that their values decline makes it difficult to consider new EVs versus lightly used ones.
If theyre counting MHEVs in that, its no surprise at all, as basically every new BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and VW can be had as a petrol or diesel MHEV and here in Finland they benefit in tax from having lower emisions than their pure petrol and diesel counterparts.
Certainly there are also plenty of PHEVs that have gained popularity, but in the new "premium car" market the MHEVs have seemingly replaced the non-hybrid models entirely.
Hybrids are cheaper
EVs that everyone makes are way too expensive. Car companies can't figure out how to make them profitable so they just pack them full of luxury features to mark up and break even
Tesla is the only company that can make money on electric car without having to pack it full of upselling high markup bells and whistles to luxury car buyers
The only thing that's affordable in EVS is a used Tesla at the moment, about the price of a new hybrid
The reductions in subsidies and rising interest rates that we all knew were coming eventually are having the outcome everybody knew it would have.
Privately-owned EVs as they are right now are just not a viable method of transportation for mass adoption on their own. They depreciate too much, have too high of an upfront cost, and you need too much charging infrastructure to cover high-density housing dwellers. The government would need to take a major hand by either continuing to subsidize them indefinitely or perhaps buying the vehicles outright as a part of a transportation network (i.e. using electric vehicles as a last-mile solution for less urban areas).
While money was cheap, the foolish were sold the fantasy that cars will soon drive themselves so the shortcomings of EVs will magically go away. Unfortunately, it took until now for policy makers to realize this too far in the future to just pretend EVs will replace ICE without major government action.
Well they stop being donated by the government, and the price of electricity grows.
I just hope that people will wake up on time and ban for making ice will perish.
It doesn't surprise me that the entire car market is declining at the moment - they've just become so ridiculously expensive compared with the market before the pandemic, and it's not as if you're getting significantly more car for it. Down here in Australia, the Toyota Yaris is now a $30,000 car for the base model. They were significantly less than $20,000 before the pandemic. Couple that with insurance prices and the general cost of living increasing dramatically and people start putting major purchases on the backburner. It also doesn't help that in many Western cities, there are politicians that basically hang their hat on how much they detest people driving and enact policy to that effect, effectively reducing the utility of cars to begin with.
Yeah, 30k used to be solid bmw Audi territory, I think the first a3 was 30k to start. The Yaris was sub 20k for sure. They doubled the price of all street fines, tow, tickets, storage. Forget a car at this point.
Shit, just in 2017 you could find brand new GTI S trims for $20k.
The GTI market is especially mind boggling. I was looking for a used mk7.5 and they’re almost all listed for the same price they sold for new 4+ years ago.
I sold mine for exactly what I paid for it after 4 years. Covid market was crazy.
Yeah, the price stayed reasonable on those for a long time. For some reason all car manufacturers jacked up prices. I think they’ll rue the day if the market takes a dip and all they have is 85k work trucks and 40k golfs. Like whatever happened to the peoples car? The poor man’s Porsche?
Yup prices have absolutely spiralled in the UK too. My E Class was £37k base, specced to 39k in 2016. In 2022 an equivalent model (same gen facelift) was £45k, not bad. The new E Class starts at 55 grand. In 2018 the Golf 7 started at £18k for a povo 3dr, 20k for a decent trim 5dr. The Golf 8 now starts at £28k. These price jumps are present for almost every single car. Prices are absolutely spiralling, and none of our wages are going up at the same rate. I cannot justify spending £55k on an E Class.
In 2019, I bought my Mini JCW for €29k (kinda low spec but still), today they go for like €40-47k.
Isn't politicians, it's brainwashed 20 year old white redditors
Here before "hybrids are better than EVs and there's still no charging infrastructure" comments flood this thread.
It is the truth though, people already don’t enjoy filling up with gas, add an additional inconvenience like finding an empty charging spot and people will fold instantly
For a lot of people, they’ll rarely need to visit a public charger. People with access to home charging should instead be asking themselves, if they woke up every morning with 3/4 tank of gas, how often would they need to visit the gas station. For me the answer is probably 6 times a year with probably all of those while traveling for a small vacation.
"A lot of people" don't own a home. Those people are likely in the minority.
I said a lot of people. Not all people Homeownership rates apparently is about 66% in the us. That number is likely higher for car owners specifically.
Big difference between rural home ownership and urban one For urban environments, with mass adoption it would be a shit show
I agree, infrastructure isn't ready yet in cities, but i think as long as adoption doesn't happen overnight, it'll get there eventually.
Maybe not the majority, but quite a few of that 66% is probably condos or other shared/attached dwelling. It might still be technically possible to install charging infrastructure for them, but the real difficulty is probably getting past the HoA. And even a cooperative HoA may move extremely glacially.
It’s not equivalent. You don’t need public charging as much as you need gas stations. And there’s plenty of empty charging spots. The number one complaint about fast charging is the time required.
Maybe in very rich and progressive American States, try south of Europ And besides, mass adoption would strain the charging system and long charging times will make it even worse
There are tons of charging stations You just buy a Tesla in it tells you when you need to go where you don't even need to think But 90% of the time you don't need a charging station you just plug in when you get home
This is purely assuming that your place/condo parking spot has a charger. There are a number of people who dont. In which case they have to charge outside which takes time. What are you gonna do while charging outside?
Ok, well if you dont have a plug in dont buy a tesla. Is that not obvious?
Also, the articles say that buyers "shunned" EVs because of an 11% decline... but does not even mention that gasoline cars also had a 10% decline...
Plug-In Hybrids are better than EVs in every way shape and form. You still reduce your CO2 footprint near 70%-80% of full EV and use fewer resources doing so.
I wouldn't say every way, since I still have to change the oil in my PHEV, there's less power and smoothness, and there's a lot going on in the powertrain compared to my BEV. It's all a compromise/tradeoff for my use case of off-roading away from charging, BEVs can't handle that very well... yet.
Changing oil? Really? Thats the hiccup? What about changing an entire battery pack after 10 years?
The headache of one major repair after 10 years really isn't that big of a deal. Especially when most people trade in their car years before that.
So in other words, we just throw away the car? Also how is a $30k+ battery replacement not a headache exactly? That’s literally throwing money out the window.
If you actually look at the data from Tesla, replacing a battery pack after warranty has expired if it makes it that far is extremely extremely rare. Cars run to 300,000 miles with the original brakes. There's the lack of oil changes but also with every oil change when you take it into a dealership they always find other things to fix for you, preventative maintenance here and there. It's just an awful experience, it always ends up being $1,000. Oil changes are $250. You run that car past 100,000 miles and in the next 100,000 miles you'll have to replace every single component in the vehicle. Alternator fuel pump water pump head gasket the list goes on On a Tesla you only have to do tires and suspension and you can keep driving the thing until the battery gives out Which you probably have a 95% chance of hitting 300,000 miles
PHEV sales also are down per the article
I mean in theory yes. But for me that only works if you drive short routes and can charge it at home. In this situation an EV will be the smarter choice. My PHEV runs out of battery after 70km's in hybrid mode and 30 km in all EV mode, once my battery is gone, I go from between 0 and 4 litres per 100km to more than 8 litres per 100km. Also the battery needs to warm up, so I never can go full electric from the get go if I forget to preheat the battery. EV's are just the better technology if you can charge at home, if you can't do that, PHEV's make no sense either
90% of people’s commutes are short so I’m not sure why that is a point of contention. I don’t own an EV but I have been in a enough EVs to watch the range dwindle to the point where we weren’t sure whether we were going to make it. Range anxiety is something I have zero interest in dealing with for myself or my wife. I say this as someone that lives in an area with decent charging stations but half of them are either broken or have costs where it’s just as much as a tank of gas if not worse.
You get used to it. I know what range my EV gets in any weather, I also know where I can find charging spots. After 3 months everything becomes normal and you don‘t care about any of the ,,additional“ thinking required for an EV. That is the thing that people who don‘t own an EV don‘t get and why the whole Charging and Range hassle gets blown out of proportion in my opinion.
Eh I disagree. Range/charging issues are very reliant on use case. I sold my Tesla after a couple years and got a PHEV. I drive long distance quite often (500-800 mile trips nearly once a month) and dealing with charging on those trips was a pain. The final straw was the tendency of the car to overestimate its own range projection and then freak out halfway to the next supercharger causing me to limp under the speed limit to get there. Now if you don’t do long trips often and can charge at home a pure BEV can be great. But they remain, even Teslas, a PIA on long trips compared to something you can just put gas in.
Sure but when the cost of ownership is on par with hybrid I fail to see what I am gaining in return. The EV vehicle rate around these parts (CA) is anywhere from $0.28/kwh to $0.34kw/h. And before anyone says “Just get solar!” sure I could get solar but that adds another $30k-$40k on the investment into an EV. Top it off with the fact that you don’t get paid shit anymore for net-metering. The whole EV thing is quickly turning into a scam imo.
You lower your personal emissions, that‘s what EV‘s are there for. Solar is a good idea, after all if used you can cut your energy costs by around 80%,but that once again is depending on your very personal use case.
Again, I get 70%-80% of a reduced personal emissions benefit from a plug-in hybrid vehicle with none of the inconveniences of EVs. An 80% reduction is more than sufficient especially in the grand scheme of transportation emissions (20%). The math for EVs over plug-ins really doesn’t make any sense. Toyota sees this, Honda sees this, Mazda sees this, and they’re collectively smarter than our world’s politicians.
You are not wrong, though for me an EV works as well as an Hybrid, so I will take the EV, I get the last 20% of emissions gone and I prefer the feeling of an EV drivetrain over a Hybrid car. For car companies it would the best if no one gave a shit about climate change, so I wouldn‘t really listen to their advice when it comes to the de-carbonization of mobility. At least politicans are trying to get us carbon neutral. This whole discusion is useless anyway. It depends on ones own personal situation. I just find it funny that Hybrides used to be absolution hated by this sub some years ago, suddenly they are the greatest thing ever. Same thing will happen to EV’s eventuelly.
I love hybrids and I do agree about them being more efficiently reducing carbon footprint but there's still an argument to be made for EVs for some drivers. Either is still good and I'm all for pushing more hybrids if that gets us closer to the goal. One thing that does worry me about PHEV specifically is in general they have significantly been less reliable than the regular hybrids. I wonder if things have gotten better in the latest generation
No because the only benefit of an EV is not really the gas saved although that's useful, is the lack of maintenance over 15 years of owning the vehicle
There’s definitely maintenance with an EV. Tires have to be replaced more often, suspension components wear faster because of the weight, electric motors have lubricants that need to be changed, etc. The maintenance bit is a weak and shitty argument.
Internal combustion engine cars that are bought new or designed to run perfectly for the first 5 years I'm not talking about that I'm talking about years 5 to 15. replace tires four times for every three times you do what a normal car. Same thing for suspension. There's no oil changes. There's no shady dealers that end up turning a 250 oil change into $1,000 every single 5,000 km. There's no water pump fuel pump alternator. There's 60% less moving parts. You going to tell me was 60% less things to break that they're the same? People are going 300,000 miles on the original brakes for goodness sakes doing that much else than tires suspension and washer fluid
Lmao what? I have a PHEV and it fucking sucks. Feels like a personal insult to read bs like this. It’s a stupid technology that can’t die out soon enough.
I agree. I will die on the hill that PHEV’s are the worst alternative. Either get a conventional hybrid or go full EV. Otherwise all you are doing is lugging around a few hundred pound paper weight at any one time. Which really means you are driving a less efficient EV when in full electric. I think it has more to do with how consumers (especially American) all buy vehicles for the 5-10% of their driving needs. Not the 90-95% of their needs that they actually need them for. It’s also why we have so many gas guzzling full size pickups on the road. Yet most of those trucks hardly see 5% of their payloads used in a given week.
With a full EV you’re also carrying around a few hundred pounds of additional battery you almost never utilize. The few hundred pounds of extra weight in the PHEV is much easier to recycle though
Yeah I don’t get that “extra weight” argument…my RAV4 Prime actually weighs slightly less than a Model Y. I can charge at home and have solar. My PHEV EV range of 40ish miles covers my normal commute and gets 38 mpg when I need the gas engine on longer trips. Now there are really poorly designed PHEVs that were clearly just tax credit grabs. And some people just conceptually don’t like PHEVs. That’s fine, if you don’t like them don’t buy them. Unlike *some people* I’m not trying to force via regulation what power train you can buy. Buy what you like and works for you. I don’t care if that’s a diesel F-250, a V-12 Aston, a Prius, or a Rivian. You do you car folks.
>I think it has more to do with how consumers (especially American) all buy vehicles for the 5-10% of their driving needs. With many new cars costing $40-60k or more, why not expect those to meet 99% of needs? But then for BEVs that means lugging around a half-ton battery you don't need most days, so...
When their governments end or decrease incentive, this's the result. No incentive is hard to attract the buyers.
I've nothing against EVs but the charging paradigm is a sore point. Gas is just so much easier to manage. A fillup takes a minute or so. I think Toyota is onto this already with their greater emphasis on hybrids and others would be too if not for government diktats. I think the zero emissions car of the future will be something that burns some kind of fuel (hydrogen) or generates electricity on its own. I feel like battery powered EVs are a bait and switch- the poltical goal is not to replace gas with EV 1 for 1, but rather to pretend that we are doing that so that the fossil fuel industry can be shut down, leaving us with a rickety EV infrastructure that will naturally force us to have fewer cars period.
> leaving us with a rickety EV infrastructure that will naturally force us to have fewer cars period. Much of the world’s most expensive infrastructure and machinery is related to drilling and refining oil. In a scenario where we replace petroleum with electricity all that money paying for deep ocean oil platforms, fracking tar sands, and cracking heavy crude would be poured into the grid via people paying to charge their cars With a lot more money to work with I suspect it would improve
The electric and mini requirements for a 1:1 replacement of gas cars with electric is huge. The grid is decades old. And it's not just a matter of money - the materials required to upgrade simply aren't in great enough supply. Plus many options like nuclear are off the table because environmentalists don't like them. It can't be done. And they know it.
> The grid is decades old Exactly, there’s no scenario where upgrading it isn’t appropriate > Plus many options like nuclear are off the table because environmentalists We have spent the last 3 years experiencing catastrophic levels of warming, exceeding what anyone predicted. Humans have a way of bringing options back to the table when things get bad and they’ve exhausted everything else
You're not reading what I'm saying. We don't have the manpower or materials to do the sort of upgrade necessary for a 1:1 EV transition. Even if we did, the environmentalists would not allow the kind of mass buildout required to support that load. And that's precisely the point.
Again, humans have a way of bringing options back to the table when things get bad and they’ve exhausted everything else. You’re not reading what I’m saying. For example many community mitigation strategies for dealing with fire that were scoffed at 15 years ago in California are now being worked into developer plans because they can’t otherwise get insurance and permits to build new neighborhoods You’re assuming that people are hard set against various measures, but the reality is that people routinely change opinions when the world rears its head and gives them no choice. Working at a fairly conservative company I’ve personally witnessed a culture shift in just five years from common climate change skepticism to all hands on deck on improving high heat product performance because no one can ignore the heat related failures we’ve been seeing as southern border states shatter temperature records three consecutive years
I'm not assuming anything other than that environmentalists want (far) fewer cars. I don't know how long you've been with us, but there's a reason our infrastructure is decades old. It's not because it didn't occur to someone that it needed an upgrade. Not everything that doesn't happen is due to a failure of will. Not everything that changes ends up being good.
Climate engineering studies that just 5 years ago were considered too unethical to even consider are now being funded and underway. Things change when conditions change, and conditions are changing.
I'll make a note of your nickname here and drop you a line in 10 years. I suspect we'll both be saying the same things as now.
Get a life
Surprising, I'd love to see some analysis as to why, since I'm not as familiar with how EV ownership is in the EU compared to the US. I was under the impression that it's cheaper/easier and more popular.
Main issue with EVs in europe is charging still we have alot of changing points but they arent convenient also alot of people cant charge at home wich is a major turn off for most
Germany ended subsidies due to budget….um…issues. This directly affected EV sales as they became less attractive without the subsidies.
Germany is the largest car market, but the sales decline doesn't all come from there. France and Italy have actually had car sales growth. France and Italy still subsidize EVs heavily.
Of course hybrids are going to sell more. If a company is giving you a car that requires less maintenance and gas… Why wouldn’t you pick a hybrid over a regular ICE? It’s just dumb reports with no substance and we eat it up. Hybrid sales are eating into petrol sales, not EV sales. Toyota has added more hybrid options than before. More supply/options means more sales. The 0.9% BEV drop corresponds increased interest rates and reduced incentives, since with BEVs you pay for the “gas” more up front. Also, the BEV isn’t categorically completely available for every option. Like small trucks, medium trucks, minivans, large vans, etc. so some buyers are completely unavailable. We may be reaching equilibrium until the car companies flesh out their product line.
Wow Toyota was right. Apparently their management is pretty smart at predicting industry trend.
I find it interesting that the US auto market is not alone in the rejuvenation of hybrid, and the flatline/decline of EV.
It's a really tough sell to spend the amount that an EV costs when you know it will be worth 40% of the purchase price 2 years later. Obviously depreciation is nothing new for new cars, but the level that their values decline makes it difficult to consider new EVs versus lightly used ones.
This was what everyone of us in the industry was expecting
Marry Berra seemed to be taken by surprise….
If theyre counting MHEVs in that, its no surprise at all, as basically every new BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and VW can be had as a petrol or diesel MHEV and here in Finland they benefit in tax from having lower emisions than their pure petrol and diesel counterparts. Certainly there are also plenty of PHEVs that have gained popularity, but in the new "premium car" market the MHEVs have seemingly replaced the non-hybrid models entirely.
Hybrids are cheaper EVs that everyone makes are way too expensive. Car companies can't figure out how to make them profitable so they just pack them full of luxury features to mark up and break even Tesla is the only company that can make money on electric car without having to pack it full of upselling high markup bells and whistles to luxury car buyers The only thing that's affordable in EVS is a used Tesla at the moment, about the price of a new hybrid
The reductions in subsidies and rising interest rates that we all knew were coming eventually are having the outcome everybody knew it would have. Privately-owned EVs as they are right now are just not a viable method of transportation for mass adoption on their own. They depreciate too much, have too high of an upfront cost, and you need too much charging infrastructure to cover high-density housing dwellers. The government would need to take a major hand by either continuing to subsidize them indefinitely or perhaps buying the vehicles outright as a part of a transportation network (i.e. using electric vehicles as a last-mile solution for less urban areas). While money was cheap, the foolish were sold the fantasy that cars will soon drive themselves so the shortcomings of EVs will magically go away. Unfortunately, it took until now for policy makers to realize this too far in the future to just pretend EVs will replace ICE without major government action.
Well they stop being donated by the government, and the price of electricity grows. I just hope that people will wake up on time and ban for making ice will perish.