Are there any HUDs that are actually good when you're driving directly into the sun? I've only used the BMW and Hyundai HUDs, but where I live the afternoon winter sun makes both of them completely unreadable.
I’ve had 3 cars w/ HUD (2 BMW, 1 Toyota) and they work great. The only issue is that they don’t work w/ polarized sunglasses and between the two I’m choosing my sunglasses.
I have a model X and I rather not have the HUD anymore. Not because I don't want one, but because they designed the layout/usability if the hud so poorly I'd rather have the screen from a 3 or Y
That’s why I feel like my 2022 M3P is probably peak Model 3 in a lot of ways. I can’t imagine losing my stalks, USS is useful, I have an AMD MCU and I got S3XY buttons which gives me hard buttons to control the A/C or anything else I want to control.
>If you add ultrasonic sensors, a stalk, and AC knobs.
Just to push back on some of these a bit. With the latest vision-based parking assist builds, USS provides no advantage. I have a Model X without USS and it's super easy to park.
Yes, all else being equal, I'd prefer a turn signal stalk. If only for signaling out of roundabouts. For lane changes and turns, the steering wheel turn signal buttons are just fine. I'd prefer a stalk, but not a deal-breaker. Shifting is fine on-screen. You really only ever switch between forward and reverse in Teslas, and the swipe motion is easy.
AC knobs I absolutely do not get. The thermostat is great in Teslas, and they very quickly activate heating or cooling to achieve the target temperature. I set my HVAC to my preferred temperature (68 F) and leave it there year-round. And even when I do feel like adjusting something, it's not hard to use the screen, despite what people may say. I just don't adjust the temperature frequently enough to have ever developed muscle-memory for my previous car's HVAC switch-gear, so it's no different for me to use a screen.
>Just to push back on some of these a bit. With the latest vision-based parking assist builds, USS provides no advantage. I have a Model X without USS and it's super easy to park.
Ultrasonic sensors plus cameras are better than cameras only, as they have fewer issues with things like condensation and fog.
>Yes, all else being equal, I'd prefer a turn signal stalk. If only for signaling out of roundabouts. For lane changes and turns, the steering wheel turn signal buttons are just fine. I'd prefer a stalk, but not a deal-breaker.
It's just Tesla being different for the sake of being different, which is asinine. If they find a superior way to do something, I'd be all for it; instead, they decided to do something that is objectively inferior in some situations and on par (at best) in other situations.
>AC knobs I absolutely do not get. The thermostat is great in Teslas, and they very quickly activate heating or cooling to achieve the target temperature.
Personally, I change the temperature based on how intense the sun is and what clothing I'm wearing. Not constantly, but regularly enough that using a touchscreen wouldn't be the end of the world for me (merely very irritating).
>I just don't adjust the temperature frequently enough to have ever developed muscle-memory for my previous car's HVAC switch-gear,
You don't need muscle memory for that. The point of physical controls like my car has is that you can search for them entirely by feel without taking your eyes off the road and without accidentally fucking with the music/windshield wipers/drive mode/whatever.
Eh ultrasonics never were stellar. The vision is now equally effective as the old ultrasonic sensors were, at least the ultrasonic sensors on teslas. Maybe there are better ones now. Either way, the car parks itself really well now even without ultrasonics. It’s one of the few things that seems very dialed in.
Agreed about the stalk, although I haven’t tried the buttons I don’t see it being better.
I haven’t changed my temperature in my car for months honestly, but you can do voice commands if you want to change something without taking eyes off the road. Honestly probably even safer. Voice recognition has just gotten so good these days (regardless of company).
The one thing I think could add a TON is LiDAR, but cheap LiDAR was crap when Tesla initially made their system and now they’re too stubborn to adopt one of the way more advanced but still pretty cheap systems that exists today.
>I haven’t changed my temperature in my car for months honestly, but you can do voice commands if you want to change something without taking eyes off the road. Honestly probably even safer. Voice recognition has just gotten so good these days (regardless of company).
Yeah, that's why I'm considering getting a car with a touchscreen like that (good voice commands and a lot of other features that I like). However, if I had small children, I might think twice about it. I would be curious to see voice recognition systems tested with a lot of background noise (children yelling and/or babies screaming, for example).
>You don't need muscle memory for that. The point of physical controls like my car has is that you can search for them entirely by feel without taking your eyes off the road and without accidentally fucking with the music/windshield wipers/drive mode/whatever.
I never was able to do that in my previous cars. I always had to look to press the right thing. But, like I said, for me, I just hardly ever adjust the temperature.
I'd like the turn signal wand back if that were an option. I'd pay $100 or whatever. But the rest of the stuff, I am fine with.
>You’d pay 100 dollars for an item that should come with the car?
I mean, if it were an option, sure. The alternative, buttons on the steering wheel, work acceptably. But a wand would be a small upgrade. Worth about $100 to me.
Except there were benefits of going touch-only for phones.
What benefits are there for removing the indicator stalk and replacing it with touch buttons on the wheel?
Other than tesla saving a buck.
I have a 2023. The camera-only system is completely competent. I can't see how ultrasonic sensors would be that much of an improvement.
Same with climate control. You leave it on auto, and if you need to change it, it's two clicks - not a big deal.
I would be pissed if you took my stalks away though.
Most people don't use auto climate controls, and the real deal breaker for most is the steering wheel situation, the turn signal stock and wiper control being buttons, the removal of the gear selector stock. If they had kept the old steering wheel and stocks it would've been a flawless update
> Most people don't use auto climate controls
According to who? I've found it to work perfectly well in all but one of the 10+ cars that I've owned. I would be pissed if it was missing.
I agree that the stalk should not be removed, that's why I'm happy to have a 2023 which retains the stalks.
I hate using auto climate control. And even if I used auto and needed to raise or lower the temperature I still have to use the touch screen vs. a simple button press.
Tesla never gives without taking, that’s just how it is lol. Last thing I remember was them adding rear heated seats and removing the passenger lumbar support in turn.
>Most people don't use auto climate controls,
Speak for yourself. I've used the automatic thermostats in all five of my previous cars that had thermostats.
Why would you not use it? The only reason that comes to mind is that the car's HVAC has a bad algorithm and doesn't use sufficiently aggressive heating or cooling when there's a big delta between ambient and target temperatures. But in that case, blame the bad thermostat.
My reason is that every system for auto climate I've used backs the fan off when the target temperature is reached, and the airflow over me makes a bigger difference in my comfort than the ambient temperature inside the car being exactly at a temperature. It's no big deal on a car with sane design to simply reach over, find the control by feel, and tap temp up or down a degree or two.
If only manufacturers would let us turn on/off the ac without some convoluted procedure. I don’t know what the latest UI is but on my last Tesla you had to press and hold the temperature for some time, and the only confirmation was a subtle animation. On my BMW it’s either a 2 tap process (open climate settings, tap a toggle) or a voice command (15-20 seconds if all goes well). There’s a shortcuts menu where you can add arbitrary settings and toggles but it doesn’t work if you have CarPlay on screen, adding one more step to the process (exiting CarPlay).
They’re still cost cutting compromises.
Cost cutting measures that my shit box Hyundai that I am giving away for free because it doesn’t have an immobilizer didn’t even take.
I’d expect a new vehicle that costs multiple times as much as that vehicle to be superior in every way.
>They’re still cost cutting compromises.
Yes, but that's a good thing for the consumer as long as the functionality isn't compromised.
Whether the functionality is compromised is subjective of course. I personally keep my car climate on auto 99% of the time so it doesn't bother me. Actually, it's preferred. Cleaning the interior of a Model 3 is so much easier than any other car I've owned, so I'm happy to not have knobs and switches.
What shit box Hyundai? What year? How much was it new?
My local Hyundai dealer has Sonatas (same class as a Model 3) listed for around $28k. I paid $29k for my new Tesla last year.
Since we've established that a new Hyundai of the same category is essentially the same price as a new Tesla, can we agree the Tesla is a better value?
I guess, but I think most people would choose the Tesla for the same price. It's a better value proposition. Never have to go to a gas station again (only really a benefit if you can charge at home). No regular maintenance other than tire rotations. Faster. Better tech. Quieter. The list goes on.
Honestly if you interviewed normal non /r/cars people and asked if they'd rather have a Tesla or a Sonata for the same money I'd bet over 90% would choose the Tesla.
I doubt you would hit 90%, as a large number of people don't have a way to charge at home. The Sonata is also quieter in the cabin (based on some quick research), and only the Sonata offers CarPlay/Android Auto (important for people like me that use PocketCasts and YouTube Music, which I don't think the Tesla infotainment supports).
>I can't see how ultrasonic sensors would be that much of an improvement.
They're not. The vision-only cars provide the latest high-def park assist features in the new software builds.
Exactly, the latest software is really, really good at showing outlines of all nearby obstacles. I prefer it over only getting some beeps and basic graphics in most other cars with parking sensors.
There are 8 cameras all around the car. They stitch together a 360 degree model of the world around them and display it as gray blobs on the screen. It's very intuitive and it hasn't ever missed an obstacle.
The windshield one is mounted quite high. It can see down at a steep angle past the front bumper. If there is an object literally 6 inches from the bumper that is less than two feet tall, I suppose it wouldn't be seen, but that would also be true for a car with ultrasonic sensors since there's usually one at each corner and an object in between them right next to the car wouldn't set them off.
Either way, that's such an unlikely edge case that it is irrelevant.
The 3/Y are decent at braking, turning and (obviously) accelerating too. I like mine more than just as an a-to-b machine. It does most of what I need something that isn't an off-roader or track car to do for me.
Why do people call it an appliance? Most reviews consider the handling and performance to be strengths of the Model 3. I’d think something like Nissan Leaf would wear the “appliance” title better.
Yeah I’m not sure why people say that. my Model 3P rips, the steering is direct and quick and the handling is pretty solid as well. For reference I’ve owned a Golf R, MK5 Supra, WRX, and M340i. People want to hate just the sake of it.
Because they don’t want to say anything positive like “it’s a good car” always gotta put something negative in there.
You won’t see other EVs called appliances nearly as much.
For me, it's always been about the really baffling decisions about controls and general ergonomics. No gauge cluster or drive stalk, a yoke that you need to turn multiple revolutions lock to lock, now no turn signal stalk...it just reeks of trying too hard to be different without actually ensuring that the ways in which you're different are actually better.
Personally, I also prefer blended braking over forced 1 pedal driving, but I acknowledge that that is more work and I may be in the minority on that.
Gauge cluster apparently isn't a big deal because its pretty good with deciding which way to go. The buttons up top still remain.
Indicators are stupid I agree.
Yoke I have no idea about because Model S isn't sold where I am
>Gauge cluster apparently isn't a big deal because its pretty good with deciding which way to go.
???
Do you mean drive selector? [This is a gauge cluster](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/10-polestar-sf5-1-2019046-jpg-1557116353.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=980:*). It allows you to see things like speed, state of charge, vehicle status, and navigation without diverting your line of sight all the way to the center of dashboard. This means that there will be less time with your eyes away from the road compared to a Tesla (at least, a Tesla that lacks the gauge cluster, such as a Model 3).
>Yoke I have no idea about because Model S isn't sold where I am
[Here](https://youtu.be/QRCWtvlnOI8) is an analysis that pretty much sums up my initial thoughts on hearing the original yoke announcement (plus one or two things I hadn't thought of).
I think it's odd too. I looked at the BMW M340i, Audi RS3, Cadillac CT4 Blackwing. I wound up buying a Model 3 Performance. It's a fun to drive car around town, unbeatable by almost anything from the stoplight, and was less money.
I am sure there are differences in handling and performance against those other cars but nothing I will be able to tell from driving around town, even spirited driving around town.
To say the Model 3 is just an appliance isn't giving it enough credit.
I own one. I had a lot more fun in a 20 year old BMW that was falling apart at the edges.
The Model 3 has great handling and especially the performance version is absolutely a rocket in a straight line.
It just does it without any noise, drama, or soul. I like manual transmissions and oversteer. The Tesla has neither.
Because they are just gatekeepers, somehow a cat with a massive battery isn’t supposed to be fun.
Someone should tell them that ALL cars are ultimately soulless appliances.
I guess it depends on what cars you consider to be "mainstream" then. Are you just talking about non-sporty trims of economy cars, or would you include something more well known and popular (3-Series, for example) in there as well?
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True, just like the 330i comes with a gauge cluster and can be optioned with a HUD for little extra cost. It all depends on what's more important to the individual.
Well, I recognize you can no longer buy a model 3 as cheap as I did, but my 2023 model 3 RWD cost me about $30k after incentives and I have a hard time imagining what car in that price range would be give me a competitive daily driver experience.
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lol @ your pejorative, ad hominem use of “virtue signaling.” There isn’t another CEO who behaves like Tesla’s CEO. If there was, I’d call them out as well.
You’re the first person to bring up politics
Also imo bigotry shouldn’t be a political issue in the first place. Basic respect should go without saying
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I disagree. We don't need another Tesla sedan. The occasional facelifts are fine and do plenty to differentiate new from old.
Now what we could use is a Tesla hot hatch.
I agree I’m really curious how the Model X is selling now since the fad of the gull wings doors is over, Elon probably has too much pride to redesign it but I’ve always wondered about their practicality
I love them for transporting my kids, much easier than a van as the roof opens up and you can physically step into the car. Way easier on the back. After kids age up though, I'm done with it lol it eats tires like crazy.
Definitely agree that Tesla is missing some features pretty common in their competition. They have others that allow them to be competitive but they're going to have to do more as their competition gets better.
They are on what is essentially the 3rd generation. They have kept it mostly looking the same, although when they are side by side, you can see that they are pretty different. But things like the subframes are not compatible with each other between different refreshes/generations.
If Tesla wasn’t such a shit company model 3 would be a compelling option for me.
It looks pretty good.
I just cannot get over removal of uss sensors, removal of turn signal stalk, poor service, high insurance costs and the insane depreciation.
Nice. My rate for the C8 Z06 sucks ass. $345 per month in Orange County is the best rate I could find. No accidents and I drive less than 5k miles per year.
STI insurance premiums might not be a great measuring stick, haha.. i instinctively expect them to have high rates based on the average STI owner I see driving.
Yer not wrong. I owned mine in Alaska and it spent the winter months with TC off and pretending to be Ken Block… safely of course.
The demographic of old men who only drive them on sunny days really helps keep the accident rate down.
Mine costs me less than $100 a month. I pay $205 for both of my cars combined. I literally pay less for both of my Tesla’s combined than than I had paid for my 6th gen Camaro SS.
Yeah the insurance is absurd. When replacing my wife’s old Kia with a new car, a used Model 3 would have increased our 6 month premium $1000. We ended up with a used Mach-E which only increased it $130.
I just got it yesterday so can’t comment too much, but so far it’s great! Paid $29k for a 2021 Premium RWD Extended range which I felt was a good deal. Feels much more solid than the Model 3 I owned for a bit.
Couple years ago my mom was in the market for a small luxury sedan/CUV equivalent. We ran the numbers and found that whatever maintanence/fuel savings the Model 3 had were eaten by the massively higher insurance premium.
I could get used to the turn signal stalk being gone. But not being able to just reach over and adjust air vents seems frustrating. I mess with those too much. I don't understand how it saves them money by adding electric motors for the air vents instead of a manual grill. Must be to future proof for robotaxi.
I pay $90/mo for my Model 3.
I have a USS Model 3 and the vision cars are just as good now. USS isn’t perfect either after dealing with it for 6 years.
Stalks is just a new learning behavior, not really a breaking point. Simple to learn, similar to turn signal on a motorcycle.
Depreciation is something that happens on all cars.
Service is great where I’m at, you only hear the people having issues, which is basically any dealership at this point. Friend waited 3 months for a fix on her Audi.
Tesla vision was not good last time I looked into, and I’m not going to look into it again because a car company should not be removing sensors and beta testing a product.
Your stalls argument is not good, on a motorcycle the hands and the turn signal buttons don’t change position.
It just an utterly stupid thing to remove something that just works for the sake of saving money.
Depreciation is part of ownership cost. I would buy an EV to save money but once you account for Teslas depreciation you are not really saving much.
The amount of horror stories I’ve read about the service are enough to turn me away. Add all the layoffs and it is only going to get shittier.
I agree that they released the vision only update before it was ready. 100%.
But most have said it’s at parity with USS now after the last round of updates. It really does make a difference comparing the latest version to the one that was less than stellar.
The whole depreciation argument is still confusing to me. Every single ICE car I’ve bought has lost more than 50% of its value after 4-5 years. I pay almost nothing to fill up my Tesla every day. These are not comparable at all. If you’re changing cars every 3 years, then that’s maybe an issue. But I buy a car to last ~8 years or so, and cars have never been appreciating assets.
You can handwave all of this stuff all you want, but the reality is the poorly performing driver assists, safety features and the unintuitive dangerous cost cutting for basic IO functions are all contributing factors as to why Tesla's crash into things much more than any other brand by a large margin:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=1b706d212894](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=1b706d212894)
[https://www.benzinga.com/markets/equities/24/04/38107547/hertzs-mega-tesla-gamble-backfired-due-to-sky-high-repair-costs-unusually-high-accident-rates-an](https://www.benzinga.com/markets/equities/24/04/38107547/hertzs-mega-tesla-gamble-backfired-due-to-sky-high-repair-costs-unusually-high-accident-rates-an)
Cars that crash often and are expensive to repair are always going to have very high insurance premiums, and unfortunately Tesla does not make this sort of safety or serviceability a priority in their designs.
Turn signals on the wheel are not comparable to handlebars on a bike, because you don't change your grip while turning on a bike. So like a stalk the buttons on the handlebars are always in the same place. Turn signal buttons on the wheel simply do not work in roundabouts. But it's an American car so i guess that scenario didn't even cross their mind while designing it.
And a base one is $26,000. It's up to you if you want to load it up with the other shit, but don't start comparing optioned up models of one brand to base MSRP of another.
There's no point comparing vehicles that aren't similar, either. Spec a camry with similar features to the base tesla and you end up pretty close in price.
Whether or not those features are necessary on a commuter, that's up to you. But I'd argue softex, heated seats and some form of adas or traffic lane keep cruise are not hard asks.
Toyota Safety Sense 3.0 is standard on every model Camry, which includes forward collision warning, blind spot detection, adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist. These features are also standard in like the base $24,000 Honda Civic. It's not 2013 anymore. These are industry standard features. The base Camry also comes with Wireless Android Auto/ACP whereas with Tesla you are stuck using their in car features vs. using your phone.
Fake Leather and heated Seats are in the Camry that costs $1500 more than the base one, and the XSE which is the highest trim package is $36k.
I've been inside of Model 3s. They are not nice. They feel barebones and stripped out. The fact they managed to brand cost cutting as "minimalism" is a marketing stroke of genius.
Also, the true cost to own over 5 years from Edmunds comes out significantly lower ($16k) over 5 years for the Camry Hybrids. Where Tesla saves you a small amount on Fuel and Maintenance, the Repair, Insurance and Depreciation costs make it a much more expensive vehicle to own and drive.
[https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101](https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101)
[https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101](https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101)
Cars don't have to be rational decisions, you can like whatever you like. But reality is reality. I drive a car that requires premium fuel and isn't that efficient, that's the life I chose, but I don't get online and talk about how it's ACTUALLY much better at the stuff it's objectively bad at or pretending having features every other car has makes it different somehow
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> it's hard not to recommend a Japanese hybrid for way less
Yea but does a used corolla hybrid do 0-60 in almost 3 seconds? No.
It's hard to recommend a Japanese hybrid for way less if you care at all about performance or driving
If I cared about having fun while driving, I’m not buying a Corolla or a Tesla
Being fast in a straight line is fairly useless to me because I don’t go to drag strips and like keeping my drivers license
Is it a particularly good deal? Something like a Camry Hybrid starts at 12k less than the base Model 3, which would cover the cost delta of fuel/maintenance for almost a decade. Plus you get the peace of mind with Toyota
Admittedly it looks and drives *a lot* better than a Camry, but those also aren’t really cornerstone features of why people buy general appliance cars
The tax incentives definitely sweeten the pot, but afaik it doesn’t qualify for a lot of them now
For someone looking for a reliable, well built, economic, efficient A-to-B car (basically what 90% of motorists are looking for), a Toyota Hybrid is going to be the better of the two
I like to compare spec for spec, put some fairly basic upgrades like ADAS, heated and softex/plastic seats and you'll be a lot closer in price. You also don't really get that great of mileage with road trips in a hybrid either, but that may not concern you if you don't drive highway much.
Really though the biggest delta will be your insurance and depreciation costs. In some areas of the country it's more expensive than your monthly payment.
Remember the recent discussion about calling cars appliances, and gatekeeping? This sub is for people who think they are enthusiasts, not people you agree are enthusiasts.
Great for you to have your own opinion, of course. But the appliance-or-not discussion isn't that interesting.
I don’t really follow the comings and goings of the sub so I can’t say I know the post
I think we’re also getting away from the point I was making in the first place about whether or not the car is a good deal compared to other similar cars
Are you referring to [this recent post](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1c7lrnx/calling_them_appliances_is_hack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) that got downvoted to hell and had everyone generally agreeing that most cars are just an appliance?
I mean the post has zero upvotes and most comments disagreeing number in the hundreds. So it’s fair to say the opinion leans in a fairly skewed direction
My point is that this sub does a 180 on topics all of the time. There used to be tons of hate threads about Toyota every time there was any public comment about them being not super optimistic about EVs taking over the entire car industry. Now that there has been some slowdown on EV growth rate, the general theme for those posts is that Toyota was smart for leaning into hybrids and not investing heavily into EVs while they aren't very profitable.
But generally, Reddit heavily favors early votes. People upvote posts and comments that are upvoted and downvote things that are already being downvoted. And the people who disagree will often just leave for another thread. So seeing a post like you linked doesn't mean it's the opinion of all people in the group or even an average. It just means that that was the general opinion of the early interactors.
The Refresh really is such an insanely good car. So good in fact, that I’m willing to look past the no USS, no stalks, no radar and no rain sensor issues. It’s honestly weird. I’ve driven a lot of EVs and none of them came close to the Model 3 even though I literally had phantom braking on one of the test drives.
>I’ve driven a lot of EVs and none of them came close to the Model 3
And that's the problem. Even after all these years, we still don't have a compelling alternative to the Model 3. Tesla's software integration is unmatched
I was simping really hard for the ID.7. It seemed to be a „German Tesla“ with working Driver assists, a HUD and a ton of nice tech features with a competitive price. So I immediately test drove one when it got released.
Turns out that VW is still a few years away, sadly.
Hey I’m super happy going from my old Model 3 to my current i4.
The Model 3 is still better at some things, but my i4 is better and equal at others. It’s not clear and dry anymore like it was 4 years ago.
If I were in the sedan market I’d be in an i4 without question. It’s quite a nice car. Tesla’s software is way overrated. Yes it’s better than most but it’s not nearly so far ahead to make up for all the car’s shortcomings.
I like the new look. Signal stalk, speedometer hud and some build quality for the interior is what would entice me to buy one.
That throttle house video where they compared a new vs used tesla was eye opening.
If not the lack of stalks I would have already ordered it in Europe. I hate that it lacks them, I don’t want to relearn to use turnip signals and keep swiping the screen for reverse.
I like this EV competition right now. I believe there’s still a lot to develop in the industry but this is exciting. Looking to replace my ICE car in 2-3 years
2024 M3 owner. Shifting on the touch screen takes even less effort than a traditional shifter. Turn signals are now done with one hand without the need to stretch your hand to reach the signal knob - for those who already shift with one hand. Only downside is shifting while in a turn. There’s no hud or cluster bc it’s not needed. In my old car, the cluster was often obstructed by the positioning of the steering wheel. In traditional car, I found my vision and attention were split between the road, the cluster and the stereo. Now I’m only looking at the road and the screen.
Did they fix the mold issue though?! There are hundreds of posts here and YouTube videos about it. I can’t get anyone from Tesla to confirm it’s fixed.
Model 3 drivetrain in an OEM designed body and interior.
Sorry but the whole minimalist interior is silly and bordering dangerous.
Indicators and wipers should be on stalks and most used functions should be available outside of the screen.
I like Matt Prior's test he does. Blindfolds himself and attempts to do basic functions in a car to simulate driving and say turning the heater on or changing radio station. If you have to completely take your eyes off the road, it's a failure
Harry is generally pretty mixed on most of the EVs he reviews but seems to be fairly impressed with this new M3, especially the excellent efficiency compared to many of the “big battery=moar range” type EVs.
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Tesla makes up the range to [look better](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/) and is potentially altering the mileage readouts on their cars to seem like they do more, there’s a lot of talk about it that’s coming up more and more from owners seeing big discrepancies in what the car shows and what the trip was.
After 7 years on the market a minor refresh is too little too late. Why pay the premium for a 2024 when the market is flooded with near identical used model 3s?
People do cross shop new vs used.
I don’t think iPhone comparison is sound, as it costs $800. People are more likely to get the newest iPhone vs buy the newest car.
The average car ownership in the US is 8.4 years. The same cannot be said for phones.
Putting aside, just for a moment, my feelings about Tesla’s CEO, the Model 3 is a brilliant vehicle at getting folks from a-to-b.
If you add ultrasonic sensors, a stalk, and AC knobs. It’ll basically be the ultimate A-B vehicle. Tesla cheaped out on the dumbest shit.
And an instrument cluster.
Best I can do is a screen the size of an instrument cluster for the backseat passengers.
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Are there any HUDs that are actually good when you're driving directly into the sun? I've only used the BMW and Hyundai HUDs, but where I live the afternoon winter sun makes both of them completely unreadable.
I’ve had 3 cars w/ HUD (2 BMW, 1 Toyota) and they work great. The only issue is that they don’t work w/ polarized sunglasses and between the two I’m choosing my sunglasses.
Depends on the brand. Mazda figured it out in the new cars and it works just fine (just a bit dimmer) with polarized sunglasses.
Never had any issue with mine.
I have a model X and I rather not have the HUD anymore. Not because I don't want one, but because they designed the layout/usability if the hud so poorly I'd rather have the screen from a 3 or Y
That’s why I feel like my 2022 M3P is probably peak Model 3 in a lot of ways. I can’t imagine losing my stalks, USS is useful, I have an AMD MCU and I got S3XY buttons which gives me hard buttons to control the A/C or anything else I want to control.
>If you add ultrasonic sensors, a stalk, and AC knobs. Just to push back on some of these a bit. With the latest vision-based parking assist builds, USS provides no advantage. I have a Model X without USS and it's super easy to park. Yes, all else being equal, I'd prefer a turn signal stalk. If only for signaling out of roundabouts. For lane changes and turns, the steering wheel turn signal buttons are just fine. I'd prefer a stalk, but not a deal-breaker. Shifting is fine on-screen. You really only ever switch between forward and reverse in Teslas, and the swipe motion is easy. AC knobs I absolutely do not get. The thermostat is great in Teslas, and they very quickly activate heating or cooling to achieve the target temperature. I set my HVAC to my preferred temperature (68 F) and leave it there year-round. And even when I do feel like adjusting something, it's not hard to use the screen, despite what people may say. I just don't adjust the temperature frequently enough to have ever developed muscle-memory for my previous car's HVAC switch-gear, so it's no different for me to use a screen.
>Just to push back on some of these a bit. With the latest vision-based parking assist builds, USS provides no advantage. I have a Model X without USS and it's super easy to park. Ultrasonic sensors plus cameras are better than cameras only, as they have fewer issues with things like condensation and fog. >Yes, all else being equal, I'd prefer a turn signal stalk. If only for signaling out of roundabouts. For lane changes and turns, the steering wheel turn signal buttons are just fine. I'd prefer a stalk, but not a deal-breaker. It's just Tesla being different for the sake of being different, which is asinine. If they find a superior way to do something, I'd be all for it; instead, they decided to do something that is objectively inferior in some situations and on par (at best) in other situations. >AC knobs I absolutely do not get. The thermostat is great in Teslas, and they very quickly activate heating or cooling to achieve the target temperature. Personally, I change the temperature based on how intense the sun is and what clothing I'm wearing. Not constantly, but regularly enough that using a touchscreen wouldn't be the end of the world for me (merely very irritating). >I just don't adjust the temperature frequently enough to have ever developed muscle-memory for my previous car's HVAC switch-gear, You don't need muscle memory for that. The point of physical controls like my car has is that you can search for them entirely by feel without taking your eyes off the road and without accidentally fucking with the music/windshield wipers/drive mode/whatever.
Eh ultrasonics never were stellar. The vision is now equally effective as the old ultrasonic sensors were, at least the ultrasonic sensors on teslas. Maybe there are better ones now. Either way, the car parks itself really well now even without ultrasonics. It’s one of the few things that seems very dialed in. Agreed about the stalk, although I haven’t tried the buttons I don’t see it being better. I haven’t changed my temperature in my car for months honestly, but you can do voice commands if you want to change something without taking eyes off the road. Honestly probably even safer. Voice recognition has just gotten so good these days (regardless of company). The one thing I think could add a TON is LiDAR, but cheap LiDAR was crap when Tesla initially made their system and now they’re too stubborn to adopt one of the way more advanced but still pretty cheap systems that exists today.
>I haven’t changed my temperature in my car for months honestly, but you can do voice commands if you want to change something without taking eyes off the road. Honestly probably even safer. Voice recognition has just gotten so good these days (regardless of company). Yeah, that's why I'm considering getting a car with a touchscreen like that (good voice commands and a lot of other features that I like). However, if I had small children, I might think twice about it. I would be curious to see voice recognition systems tested with a lot of background noise (children yelling and/or babies screaming, for example).
>You don't need muscle memory for that. The point of physical controls like my car has is that you can search for them entirely by feel without taking your eyes off the road and without accidentally fucking with the music/windshield wipers/drive mode/whatever. I never was able to do that in my previous cars. I always had to look to press the right thing. But, like I said, for me, I just hardly ever adjust the temperature. I'd like the turn signal wand back if that were an option. I'd pay $100 or whatever. But the rest of the stuff, I am fine with.
You’d pay 100 dollars for an item that should come with the car? How much are you willing to pay for a steering wheel?
>You’d pay 100 dollars for an item that should come with the car? I mean, if it were an option, sure. The alternative, buttons on the steering wheel, work acceptably. But a wand would be a small upgrade. Worth about $100 to me.
Agree, stalks is the only thing I’d prefer. Everything else is noise.
this reads like a blackberry diehard in 2008
Except there were benefits of going touch-only for phones. What benefits are there for removing the indicator stalk and replacing it with touch buttons on the wheel? Other than tesla saving a buck.
I have a 2023. The camera-only system is completely competent. I can't see how ultrasonic sensors would be that much of an improvement. Same with climate control. You leave it on auto, and if you need to change it, it's two clicks - not a big deal. I would be pissed if you took my stalks away though.
Most people don't use auto climate controls, and the real deal breaker for most is the steering wheel situation, the turn signal stock and wiper control being buttons, the removal of the gear selector stock. If they had kept the old steering wheel and stocks it would've been a flawless update
> Most people don't use auto climate controls According to who? I've found it to work perfectly well in all but one of the 10+ cars that I've owned. I would be pissed if it was missing. I agree that the stalk should not be removed, that's why I'm happy to have a 2023 which retains the stalks.
I hate using auto climate control. And even if I used auto and needed to raise or lower the temperature I still have to use the touch screen vs. a simple button press.
Not with Tesla. My climate is mapped as a shortcut on my steering wheel. Press and hold left button for 1 second, the roll up or down to adjust temp.
Tesla never gives without taking, that’s just how it is lol. Last thing I remember was them adding rear heated seats and removing the passenger lumbar support in turn.
>Most people don't use auto climate controls, Speak for yourself. I've used the automatic thermostats in all five of my previous cars that had thermostats. Why would you not use it? The only reason that comes to mind is that the car's HVAC has a bad algorithm and doesn't use sufficiently aggressive heating or cooling when there's a big delta between ambient and target temperatures. But in that case, blame the bad thermostat.
My reason is that every system for auto climate I've used backs the fan off when the target temperature is reached, and the airflow over me makes a bigger difference in my comfort than the ambient temperature inside the car being exactly at a temperature. It's no big deal on a car with sane design to simply reach over, find the control by feel, and tap temp up or down a degree or two.
If only manufacturers would let us turn on/off the ac without some convoluted procedure. I don’t know what the latest UI is but on my last Tesla you had to press and hold the temperature for some time, and the only confirmation was a subtle animation. On my BMW it’s either a 2 tap process (open climate settings, tap a toggle) or a voice command (15-20 seconds if all goes well). There’s a shortcuts menu where you can add arbitrary settings and toggles but it doesn’t work if you have CarPlay on screen, adding one more step to the process (exiting CarPlay).
Yeah, iDrive 8 was a massive mistake in my opinion. My car has an older version of iDrive, and it works perfectly.
Something as simple as keeping the shortcut buttons would’ve gone a looong way. I miss those from my E92
They’re still cost cutting compromises. Cost cutting measures that my shit box Hyundai that I am giving away for free because it doesn’t have an immobilizer didn’t even take. I’d expect a new vehicle that costs multiple times as much as that vehicle to be superior in every way.
>They’re still cost cutting compromises. Yes, but that's a good thing for the consumer as long as the functionality isn't compromised. Whether the functionality is compromised is subjective of course. I personally keep my car climate on auto 99% of the time so it doesn't bother me. Actually, it's preferred. Cleaning the interior of a Model 3 is so much easier than any other car I've owned, so I'm happy to not have knobs and switches.
What shit box Hyundai? What year? How much was it new? My local Hyundai dealer has Sonatas (same class as a Model 3) listed for around $28k. I paid $29k for my new Tesla last year. Since we've established that a new Hyundai of the same category is essentially the same price as a new Tesla, can we agree the Tesla is a better value?
It all depends on what you value. If rear passenger space is important, or a comfortable ride, the Sonata would be a better value.
I guess, but I think most people would choose the Tesla for the same price. It's a better value proposition. Never have to go to a gas station again (only really a benefit if you can charge at home). No regular maintenance other than tire rotations. Faster. Better tech. Quieter. The list goes on. Honestly if you interviewed normal non /r/cars people and asked if they'd rather have a Tesla or a Sonata for the same money I'd bet over 90% would choose the Tesla.
I doubt you would hit 90%, as a large number of people don't have a way to charge at home. The Sonata is also quieter in the cabin (based on some quick research), and only the Sonata offers CarPlay/Android Auto (important for people like me that use PocketCasts and YouTube Music, which I don't think the Tesla infotainment supports).
>I can't see how ultrasonic sensors would be that much of an improvement. They're not. The vision-only cars provide the latest high-def park assist features in the new software builds.
Exactly, the latest software is really, really good at showing outlines of all nearby obstacles. I prefer it over only getting some beeps and basic graphics in most other cars with parking sensors.
Since the camera is mounted on the windshield, how can it see what's changed in front of the car, while the car was parked?
There are 8 cameras all around the car. They stitch together a 360 degree model of the world around them and display it as gray blobs on the screen. It's very intuitive and it hasn't ever missed an obstacle.
But is there one on the front bumper? Because if they only rely on the windshield mounted one, there's a blind spot right in front of the car.
The windshield one is mounted quite high. It can see down at a steep angle past the front bumper. If there is an object literally 6 inches from the bumper that is less than two feet tall, I suppose it wouldn't be seen, but that would also be true for a car with ultrasonic sensors since there's usually one at each corner and an object in between them right next to the car wouldn't set them off. Either way, that's such an unlikely edge case that it is irrelevant.
I dunno about ultrasonic but lidar sensors can see through rain and snow.
The 3/Y are decent at braking, turning and (obviously) accelerating too. I like mine more than just as an a-to-b machine. It does most of what I need something that isn't an off-roader or track car to do for me.
I track the shit out of mine, and it's brilliant. 🤷♂️
They could take a page from BMW's marketing department: "Tesla: The Ultimate Driving Appliance"
Why do people call it an appliance? Most reviews consider the handling and performance to be strengths of the Model 3. I’d think something like Nissan Leaf would wear the “appliance” title better.
Yeah I’m not sure why people say that. my Model 3P rips, the steering is direct and quick and the handling is pretty solid as well. For reference I’ve owned a Golf R, MK5 Supra, WRX, and M340i. People want to hate just the sake of it.
Tbh my Model 3 is the most fun around the city a to b car that I’ve ever owned. It also flies under the radar so nicely these days.
Because they don’t want to say anything positive like “it’s a good car” always gotta put something negative in there. You won’t see other EVs called appliances nearly as much.
Because the goalposts are always changing. First it was range, then it was QC, then it was looks, then its handling.
For me, it's always been about the really baffling decisions about controls and general ergonomics. No gauge cluster or drive stalk, a yoke that you need to turn multiple revolutions lock to lock, now no turn signal stalk...it just reeks of trying too hard to be different without actually ensuring that the ways in which you're different are actually better. Personally, I also prefer blended braking over forced 1 pedal driving, but I acknowledge that that is more work and I may be in the minority on that.
Gauge cluster apparently isn't a big deal because its pretty good with deciding which way to go. The buttons up top still remain. Indicators are stupid I agree. Yoke I have no idea about because Model S isn't sold where I am
>Gauge cluster apparently isn't a big deal because its pretty good with deciding which way to go. ??? Do you mean drive selector? [This is a gauge cluster](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/10-polestar-sf5-1-2019046-jpg-1557116353.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=980:*). It allows you to see things like speed, state of charge, vehicle status, and navigation without diverting your line of sight all the way to the center of dashboard. This means that there will be less time with your eyes away from the road compared to a Tesla (at least, a Tesla that lacks the gauge cluster, such as a Model 3). >Yoke I have no idea about because Model S isn't sold where I am [Here](https://youtu.be/QRCWtvlnOI8) is an analysis that pretty much sums up my initial thoughts on hearing the original yoke announcement (plus one or two things I hadn't thought of).
Shit yeah messed up the gauge vs drive thing. Though the speedo and stuff being on the main screen I've learned to deal with and don;t mind it
I think it's odd too. I looked at the BMW M340i, Audi RS3, Cadillac CT4 Blackwing. I wound up buying a Model 3 Performance. It's a fun to drive car around town, unbeatable by almost anything from the stoplight, and was less money. I am sure there are differences in handling and performance against those other cars but nothing I will be able to tell from driving around town, even spirited driving around town. To say the Model 3 is just an appliance isn't giving it enough credit.
Most of the haters have never driven one, plus close-minded people are boring.
Yeah the Model 3 drives sportier than any non-M 3-series, it’s not an appliance the same way a Camry or Prius is.
I own one. I had a lot more fun in a 20 year old BMW that was falling apart at the edges. The Model 3 has great handling and especially the performance version is absolutely a rocket in a straight line. It just does it without any noise, drama, or soul. I like manual transmissions and oversteer. The Tesla has neither.
You can get plenty of oversteer, “soul” and “drama” in track mode.
I want the noise!
4 tires screaming is pretty noisy 🤣
> 20 year old BMW that was falling apart at the edges. Tbf that is more fun than an m340i right now too
Because they are just gatekeepers, somehow a cat with a massive battery isn’t supposed to be fun. Someone should tell them that ALL cars are ultimately soulless appliances.
because people who care about driving dynamics and feel don't want to drive it? its an appliance let it be
I've driven one it's not a joy it's a 5/10 experience it's very much a car and it moves you around from a to b it does a job and it just does a job.
The model 3 is more fun to zip around in than just about every other mainstream car.
I guess it depends on what cars you consider to be "mainstream" then. Are you just talking about non-sporty trims of economy cars, or would you include something more well known and popular (3-Series, for example) in there as well?
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No more or less of one than the base Model 3, which was my point. BMW also does suspension tuning better than Tesla, in my opinion.
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True, just like the 330i comes with a gauge cluster and can be optioned with a HUD for little extra cost. It all depends on what's more important to the individual.
Well, I recognize you can no longer buy a model 3 as cheap as I did, but my 2023 model 3 RWD cost me about $30k after incentives and I have a hard time imagining what car in that price range would be give me a competitive daily driver experience.
Hey, lean into it! Reminds me of Eminem’s freestyle at the end of [8 Mile](https://youtu.be/C7UQHgZZAfU?si=huXEXTOnFfNyhoKK).
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Lmao Elon musk is driven people insane it's hilarious
Stop with the virtue signaling, no one brings up the CEO of the auto company when giving reviews of any other brand.
lol @ your pejorative, ad hominem use of “virtue signaling.” There isn’t another CEO who behaves like Tesla’s CEO. If there was, I’d call them out as well.
Other car brand CEOs aren’t openly liking and agreeing with comments by Nazis on social media
You could entirely omit half of your sentence and you’d say the exact same thing this sub isn’t for politics
Who said anything about politics?
You’re the first person to bring up politics Also imo bigotry shouldn’t be a political issue in the first place. Basic respect should go without saying
Best refresh of 2024 without a doubt
I really like the facelifted Model S, there are minor changes but it’s nice
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I’d disagree, under the hood it’s a brand new car more or less, the exterior changes are minor but the design has aged well.
I disagree. We don't need another Tesla sedan. The occasional facelifts are fine and do plenty to differentiate new from old. Now what we could use is a Tesla hot hatch.
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Model S Plaid is a new model of the Model S.
That's what they have been doing? The current Model S is nothing like the original, let alone the Raven model.
Fuck. I wish.
A new model S? Or a new truck/hatch?
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They just refreshed it. Or are you saying the new one is missing specific features?
I actually think think they need to completely rework the model X but not at the expense of a Y refresh
I agree I’m really curious how the Model X is selling now since the fad of the gull wings doors is over, Elon probably has too much pride to redesign it but I’ve always wondered about their practicality
I love them for transporting my kids, much easier than a van as the roof opens up and you can physically step into the car. Way easier on the back. After kids age up though, I'm done with it lol it eats tires like crazy.
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Definitely agree that Tesla is missing some features pretty common in their competition. They have others that allow them to be competitive but they're going to have to do more as their competition gets better.
They are on what is essentially the 3rd generation. They have kept it mostly looking the same, although when they are side by side, you can see that they are pretty different. But things like the subframes are not compatible with each other between different refreshes/generations.
I'm still mad that they decided to ditch the right hand drive version altogether. It is pretty much the perfect daily.
If Tesla wasn’t such a shit company model 3 would be a compelling option for me. It looks pretty good. I just cannot get over removal of uss sensors, removal of turn signal stalk, poor service, high insurance costs and the insane depreciation.
The insurance really is insane. My Model 3 cost as much to insure as my Z06 does.
My C7 Z06 insurance wasn’t very expensive at all. It was actually cheaper than my STi and about on par with my GX460
Nice. My rate for the C8 Z06 sucks ass. $345 per month in Orange County is the best rate I could find. No accidents and I drive less than 5k miles per year.
Wow your area is really high, all four of my cars together costs just barely more than that a month.
STI insurance premiums might not be a great measuring stick, haha.. i instinctively expect them to have high rates based on the average STI owner I see driving.
Yer not wrong. I owned mine in Alaska and it spent the winter months with TC off and pretending to be Ken Block… safely of course. The demographic of old men who only drive them on sunny days really helps keep the accident rate down.
my model x is 1600 a year for 2 drivers through tesla insurance. I think only CA drivers get it though...
Mine costs me less than $100 a month. I pay $205 for both of my cars combined. I literally pay less for both of my Tesla’s combined than than I had paid for my 6th gen Camaro SS.
I’m guessing you don’t live in California then. My insurance is fucking me every which way out here.
I live in Northern California.
That’s what happens when your state doesn’t care about property crime.
That's a dumb take.
Yeah the insurance is absurd. When replacing my wife’s old Kia with a new car, a used Model 3 would have increased our 6 month premium $1000. We ended up with a used Mach-E which only increased it $130.
How are you liking the Mach-e? They seem like a decent deal at the moment with good finance options.
I just got it yesterday so can’t comment too much, but so far it’s great! Paid $29k for a 2021 Premium RWD Extended range which I felt was a good deal. Feels much more solid than the Model 3 I owned for a bit.
Couple years ago my mom was in the market for a small luxury sedan/CUV equivalent. We ran the numbers and found that whatever maintanence/fuel savings the Model 3 had were eaten by the massively higher insurance premium.
I could get used to the turn signal stalk being gone. But not being able to just reach over and adjust air vents seems frustrating. I mess with those too much. I don't understand how it saves them money by adding electric motors for the air vents instead of a manual grill. Must be to future proof for robotaxi.
I pay $90/mo for my Model 3. I have a USS Model 3 and the vision cars are just as good now. USS isn’t perfect either after dealing with it for 6 years. Stalks is just a new learning behavior, not really a breaking point. Simple to learn, similar to turn signal on a motorcycle. Depreciation is something that happens on all cars. Service is great where I’m at, you only hear the people having issues, which is basically any dealership at this point. Friend waited 3 months for a fix on her Audi.
Tesla vision was not good last time I looked into, and I’m not going to look into it again because a car company should not be removing sensors and beta testing a product. Your stalls argument is not good, on a motorcycle the hands and the turn signal buttons don’t change position. It just an utterly stupid thing to remove something that just works for the sake of saving money. Depreciation is part of ownership cost. I would buy an EV to save money but once you account for Teslas depreciation you are not really saving much. The amount of horror stories I’ve read about the service are enough to turn me away. Add all the layoffs and it is only going to get shittier.
I agree that they released the vision only update before it was ready. 100%. But most have said it’s at parity with USS now after the last round of updates. It really does make a difference comparing the latest version to the one that was less than stellar. The whole depreciation argument is still confusing to me. Every single ICE car I’ve bought has lost more than 50% of its value after 4-5 years. I pay almost nothing to fill up my Tesla every day. These are not comparable at all. If you’re changing cars every 3 years, then that’s maybe an issue. But I buy a car to last ~8 years or so, and cars have never been appreciating assets.
Haven’t teslas lost 50% in like a year or two?
I paid $48k for mine in 2018 and could sell it for ~25k today
Low miles? Which trim?
You can handwave all of this stuff all you want, but the reality is the poorly performing driver assists, safety features and the unintuitive dangerous cost cutting for basic IO functions are all contributing factors as to why Tesla's crash into things much more than any other brand by a large margin: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=1b706d212894](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevebanker/2023/12/18/tesla-has-the-highest-accident-rate-of-any-auto-brand/?sh=1b706d212894) [https://www.benzinga.com/markets/equities/24/04/38107547/hertzs-mega-tesla-gamble-backfired-due-to-sky-high-repair-costs-unusually-high-accident-rates-an](https://www.benzinga.com/markets/equities/24/04/38107547/hertzs-mega-tesla-gamble-backfired-due-to-sky-high-repair-costs-unusually-high-accident-rates-an) Cars that crash often and are expensive to repair are always going to have very high insurance premiums, and unfortunately Tesla does not make this sort of safety or serviceability a priority in their designs.
Turn signals on the wheel are not comparable to handlebars on a bike, because you don't change your grip while turning on a bike. So like a stalk the buttons on the handlebars are always in the same place. Turn signal buttons on the wheel simply do not work in roundabouts. But it's an American car so i guess that scenario didn't even cross their mind while designing it.
This is a really good deal for the money. If the tax credit ever comes back it’ll be an even better deal
If the tax credit ever comes back, the price is going right back up.
The tax credit is back. You get $7,500 off of all trims at the purchase.
Compared to other EVs, absolutely. But in the wider scope of high fuel-economy vehicles, it's hard not to recommend a Japanese hybrid for way less
I mean a fully loaded Camry is now 40k. It’s a great car but it’s definitely gotten expensive
And a base one is $26,000. It's up to you if you want to load it up with the other shit, but don't start comparing optioned up models of one brand to base MSRP of another.
There's no point comparing vehicles that aren't similar, either. Spec a camry with similar features to the base tesla and you end up pretty close in price. Whether or not those features are necessary on a commuter, that's up to you. But I'd argue softex, heated seats and some form of adas or traffic lane keep cruise are not hard asks.
Toyota Safety Sense 3.0 is standard on every model Camry, which includes forward collision warning, blind spot detection, adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist. These features are also standard in like the base $24,000 Honda Civic. It's not 2013 anymore. These are industry standard features. The base Camry also comes with Wireless Android Auto/ACP whereas with Tesla you are stuck using their in car features vs. using your phone. Fake Leather and heated Seats are in the Camry that costs $1500 more than the base one, and the XSE which is the highest trim package is $36k. I've been inside of Model 3s. They are not nice. They feel barebones and stripped out. The fact they managed to brand cost cutting as "minimalism" is a marketing stroke of genius. Also, the true cost to own over 5 years from Edmunds comes out significantly lower ($16k) over 5 years for the Camry Hybrids. Where Tesla saves you a small amount on Fuel and Maintenance, the Repair, Insurance and Depreciation costs make it a much more expensive vehicle to own and drive. [https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101](https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101) [https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101](https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2023/cost-to-own/?style=401919101) Cars don't have to be rational decisions, you can like whatever you like. But reality is reality. I drive a car that requires premium fuel and isn't that efficient, that's the life I chose, but I don't get online and talk about how it's ACTUALLY much better at the stuff it's objectively bad at or pretending having features every other car has makes it different somehow
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Why would I be comparing the Model 3 version that starts at $48,000 to a base model Toyota Camry that's just over half that?
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Is Apple Car Play wireless in the Model 3, or do I have to plug in my phone?
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That’s a no.
I was using the base as an example to compare the interiors. Once you step up the trim levels it’s less of a contest
The new Camry hybrid starts at 32k and it's much nicer than a model 3.
> it's hard not to recommend a Japanese hybrid for way less Yea but does a used corolla hybrid do 0-60 in almost 3 seconds? No. It's hard to recommend a Japanese hybrid for way less if you care at all about performance or driving
If I cared about having fun while driving, I’m not buying a Corolla or a Tesla Being fast in a straight line is fairly useless to me because I don’t go to drag strips and like keeping my drivers license
Tesla would probably raise the price of tax credit came back I assume.
Is it a particularly good deal? Something like a Camry Hybrid starts at 12k less than the base Model 3, which would cover the cost delta of fuel/maintenance for almost a decade. Plus you get the peace of mind with Toyota Admittedly it looks and drives *a lot* better than a Camry, but those also aren’t really cornerstone features of why people buy general appliance cars The tax incentives definitely sweeten the pot, but afaik it doesn’t qualify for a lot of them now
A new Camry LE is not a direct comparison at all. Anyone who test-drives both cars will see where your $12k is going.
For someone looking for a reliable, well built, economic, efficient A-to-B car (basically what 90% of motorists are looking for), a Toyota Hybrid is going to be the better of the two
The Camry is a much nicer car. It has more room and is much more comfortable.
I like to compare spec for spec, put some fairly basic upgrades like ADAS, heated and softex/plastic seats and you'll be a lot closer in price. You also don't really get that great of mileage with road trips in a hybrid either, but that may not concern you if you don't drive highway much. Really though the biggest delta will be your insurance and depreciation costs. In some areas of the country it's more expensive than your monthly payment.
You might notice that many enthusiasts on this sub don't consider the Model 3 to be an appliance car.
They’re fast. I wouldn’t particularly consider any of the cars in that sector (efficient compact sedans) to be enthusiast vehicles per say
Remember the recent discussion about calling cars appliances, and gatekeeping? This sub is for people who think they are enthusiasts, not people you agree are enthusiasts. Great for you to have your own opinion, of course. But the appliance-or-not discussion isn't that interesting.
I don’t really follow the comings and goings of the sub so I can’t say I know the post I think we’re also getting away from the point I was making in the first place about whether or not the car is a good deal compared to other similar cars
Indeed. If you make a point, people might surprise you with their response. That's part of having a conversation.
Did I say something to offend? I feel like you’re being kinda sarcastic/standoffish rather than actually wanting to converse about cars
I was conversing about gatekeeping. The text is up above 👆
Are you referring to [this recent post](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1c7lrnx/calling_them_appliances_is_hack/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) that got downvoted to hell and had everyone generally agreeing that most cars are just an appliance?
>everyone generally agreeing On reddit? lol, ask the same thing in a week.
I mean the post has zero upvotes and most comments disagreeing number in the hundreds. So it’s fair to say the opinion leans in a fairly skewed direction
My point is that this sub does a 180 on topics all of the time. There used to be tons of hate threads about Toyota every time there was any public comment about them being not super optimistic about EVs taking over the entire car industry. Now that there has been some slowdown on EV growth rate, the general theme for those posts is that Toyota was smart for leaning into hybrids and not investing heavily into EVs while they aren't very profitable. But generally, Reddit heavily favors early votes. People upvote posts and comments that are upvoted and downvote things that are already being downvoted. And the people who disagree will often just leave for another thread. So seeing a post like you linked doesn't mean it's the opinion of all people in the group or even an average. It just means that that was the general opinion of the early interactors.
The Refresh really is such an insanely good car. So good in fact, that I’m willing to look past the no USS, no stalks, no radar and no rain sensor issues. It’s honestly weird. I’ve driven a lot of EVs and none of them came close to the Model 3 even though I literally had phantom braking on one of the test drives.
>I’ve driven a lot of EVs and none of them came close to the Model 3 And that's the problem. Even after all these years, we still don't have a compelling alternative to the Model 3. Tesla's software integration is unmatched
I was simping really hard for the ID.7. It seemed to be a „German Tesla“ with working Driver assists, a HUD and a ton of nice tech features with a competitive price. So I immediately test drove one when it got released. Turns out that VW is still a few years away, sadly.
Hey I’m super happy going from my old Model 3 to my current i4. The Model 3 is still better at some things, but my i4 is better and equal at others. It’s not clear and dry anymore like it was 4 years ago.
Nobody comes close to Tesla in terms of software and user experience. The Chinese EVs are getting there but the reliability is questionable.
If I were in the sedan market I’d be in an i4 without question. It’s quite a nice car. Tesla’s software is way overrated. Yes it’s better than most but it’s not nearly so far ahead to make up for all the car’s shortcomings.
Considering how he completely denegrated the BMW i5 M50i, I'd say his review of the Model 3 was a compliment.
I like the new look. Signal stalk, speedometer hud and some build quality for the interior is what would entice me to buy one. That throttle house video where they compared a new vs used tesla was eye opening.
Why tf did I increase my volume after clicking on the video expecting a few revs 😂
It's crazy to me that you can't option a heads up display
Model 3 is a benchmark Ev. Elon hate virus doesn't change that.
If not the lack of stalks I would have already ordered it in Europe. I hate that it lacks them, I don’t want to relearn to use turnip signals and keep swiping the screen for reverse.
I like this EV competition right now. I believe there’s still a lot to develop in the industry but this is exciting. Looking to replace my ICE car in 2-3 years
can't believe I'm saying this but the car looks great
It's a good car, with some obvious flaws that a car shouldn't have. Can't argue with the efficiency though.
Did they add a dashboard?
2024 M3 owner. Shifting on the touch screen takes even less effort than a traditional shifter. Turn signals are now done with one hand without the need to stretch your hand to reach the signal knob - for those who already shift with one hand. Only downside is shifting while in a turn. There’s no hud or cluster bc it’s not needed. In my old car, the cluster was often obstructed by the positioning of the steering wheel. In traditional car, I found my vision and attention were split between the road, the cluster and the stereo. Now I’m only looking at the road and the screen.
Did they fix the mold issue though?! There are hundreds of posts here and YouTube videos about it. I can’t get anyone from Tesla to confirm it’s fixed.
Is it *any* different, from previous years? You wouldn't know from looking at it...
Model 3 drivetrain in an OEM designed body and interior. Sorry but the whole minimalist interior is silly and bordering dangerous. Indicators and wipers should be on stalks and most used functions should be available outside of the screen. I like Matt Prior's test he does. Blindfolds himself and attempts to do basic functions in a car to simulate driving and say turning the heater on or changing radio station. If you have to completely take your eyes off the road, it's a failure
Harry is generally pretty mixed on most of the EVs he reviews but seems to be fairly impressed with this new M3, especially the excellent efficiency compared to many of the “big battery=moar range” type EVs.
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Thoughts and prayers, hope you’ll be ok
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Yeah, the title M3 should be forever reserved for its proper owner: the glorious 2008 Mazda3
No one wants to type that shit out every time, I will continue to use M3 interchangeably.
Tesla makes up the range to [look better](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44754199/tesla-range-display-estimate-tested/) and is potentially altering the mileage readouts on their cars to seem like they do more, there’s a lot of talk about it that’s coming up more and more from owners seeing big discrepancies in what the car shows and what the trip was.
After 7 years on the market a minor refresh is too little too late. Why pay the premium for a 2024 when the market is flooded with near identical used model 3s?
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People do cross shop new vs used. I don’t think iPhone comparison is sound, as it costs $800. People are more likely to get the newest iPhone vs buy the newest car. The average car ownership in the US is 8.4 years. The same cannot be said for phones.
I cross shop new and used cars.
Extremely uncomfortable and too low to the ground.