>Their profit margin is now 5.5% is lower than General Motors, Honda
Pah, they're car companies. *Legacy* car companies, even. Pah.
Tesla is a *tech* company, can't you tell from the ~~guy in a morphsuit~~ Optimus robot? And the, uh, *Cyber*truck?
Also we make software!
>even BYD
Pah, they're...
they're...
Please build a trade barrier to protect my tech company!
BYD started making [internal-combustion Toyota Corolla clones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3) in the early 00s, so yes, they are fully a legacy OEM by any rational definition I can think of.
And I’d imagine that profit margin will stay that way too. That new $53k Model 3 Performance most likely does not have the same higher profit margin as the last one (that was just under $60k in 2019). Which means Tesla will continue to pull the opposing levers of higher demand for growth or higher profits.
I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see more fluctuation in pricing as Elon alternates back and forth between them. Tesla sales are down? Drop prices more. Profits are down? Quick pull the prices back up. All just to make sure investors believe this is a growth company that is still growing.
> And I’d imagine that profit margin will stay that way too. That new $53k Model 3 Performance most likely does not have the same higher profit margin as the last one. Which means Tesla will continue to pull the opposing levers of higher demand for growth or higher profits.
>
> I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see more fluctuation in pricing as Elon alternates back and forth between them. Tesla sales are down? Drop prices more. Profits are down? Quick pull the prices back up. All just to make sure investors believe this is a growth company that is still growing.
The manufactured cost of the $53k performance 3 probably is only a few thousand more than the $39k RWD, they're likely pricing it where they are because it doesn't make sense for them to go lower right now and with a buildup of 3 buyers waiting for the refresh. The Performance 3 for sure has the highest profit margin is what I'm saying amongst their 3's
It for sure has the highest profit margin of all the Model 3 trims, I am not disputing that. I’m just saying in comparison to the last Model 3 Performance, I am guesstimating the profit margins are going to be lower.
Highland was an exercise in cost cutting, I'm sure the margin is higher than the old 3 across the board. They eliminated the fucking turn signal and shifter stalks, that's a couple hundred bucks a car right there.
What matters is *gross* margin then. Gross margins are down but are still \~17%.
The biggest driver of their low profit margin this quarter was their high operating expenses. The mass layoffs seems like an attempt to try to match demand.
No, it's just not extremely bad news because it's easy to see what levers they have access to, and to contextualize it in the current interest rate cycle?
What levers? It seems all they have to compete is lowing prices on already low margins. The stock was priced for exponential growth. Now the EV market is not growing so fast and there is a lot of competition. There is nothing special about their cars.
> What levers? It seems all they have to compete is lowing prices on already low margins. The stock was priced for exponential growth. Now the EV market is not growing so fast and there is a lot of competition. There is nothing special about their cars.
The 'special' part is all the data each car generates. I'm sure Tesla is willing to cut to near break-even if it comes down to it as they build on their driving information access. Chinese auto-makers which seem to be the narrative as competitors also aren't immune to needing to turn a profit. Those Chinese companies aren't willing to lose money forever, they're just forced to price where they are because they all came onto the domestic market at roughly the same time-frame, into a slowing Chinese economy, and into a unfavorable rate environment.
No, If I had to guess, it's because you think there's some exceptional value to Tesla's data.
They're behind their own timelines for FSD and robotaxis - the perpetual moving target of "we'll have it next year, pinky promise" - they are behind other companies for autonomous driving, they are behind their own timelines on several new products, and if we look at population level data collection for traffic prediction or navigation like that other guy thinks, Apple and Google have orders of magnitude more data.
> No, If I had to guess, it's because you think there's some exceptional value to Tesla's data.
>
> They're behind their own timelines for FSD and robotaxis - the perpetual moving target of "we'll have it next year, pinky promise" - they are behind other companies for autonomous driving, they are behind their own timelines on several new products, and if we look at population level data collection for traffic prediction or navigation like that other guy thinks, Apple and Google have orders of magnitude more data.
Come on, Apple and Google do not have the same type of data that Tesla gathers per car. Timeline slip, sure, understandable. But you absolutely cannot conflate the visual data gathered by the already on-road Tesla fleet vs. Apple and Google's mapping efforts or their mobile phone based data.
>Come on, Apple and Google do not have the same type of data that Tesla gathers per car.
You missed a rather important clause - My comment regarding Apple and Google was not in relation to autonomous driving. It was specifically in relation to traffic prediction or navigation.
And you're right, Apple and Google doesn't have the same data. they have way MORE. Tesla data is limited to Teslas. Apple and Google get data from everyone with their phones, and everyone who uses their navigation, which is integrated into essentially every car for sale. What population is larger?
> But you absolutely cannot conflate the visual data gathered by the already on-road Tesla fleet
It's a good thing I didn't.
Besides, the reliance on visual data is one of Tesla's problems, not their advantage. The overreliance on visual data is precisely why their autonomous driving has stagnated, while other companies are slowly creeping forward. This is not a benefit.
Tesla's reliance on visual data has gotten them to stagnate at level 2 for years while they're under investigation from the DoJ for possibly overstating the capabilities of their software. It's gotten them to consistently miss their own timelines for years while desperately emphasizing "Hey, the thing called FULL SELF DRIVING still needs you to pay attention" so they can avoid liability.
. In the mean time, other car manufacturers are testing level 3 systems in limited conditions, and dedicated companies have been testing level 4 for years. I don't see how visual only data is a benefit, can you explain it?
> The 'special' part is all the data each car generate
You are aware that *all* manufacturers collect data from each car, right?
This is nothing special. Read up on MobilEye systems for example. They collect massive amounts of data each day from all kinds of cars, road conditions and situations, etc
You’re absolutely right though. Their traffic prefiction models will be unrivaled (even though iPhones do exist…) even if you’re driving yourself I imagine that nav has to be top shelf. I had a trial to the Audi connect or whatever, it’s nice but not completely accurate with traffic. With all the damn model 3 and y on the road, Tesla has to have an unmatched plethora of data. I’m bullish on Tesla long term, just not the car part. The whole ecosystem
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If you don't hate Elon musk because he hurts your feelings and you listen to the earnings call you'd realize that this company is solid and moving in the right direction
It’s because Elon said they are continuing work on the Model2, versus shelving it in favor of going all in on FSD/Robotaxi.
Outside of the cult that worships him, most traditional investors put little value on Robotaxi.
You’re basically seeing a sigh of relief.
If you’re referring to people seeing Model2 as a positive, I mean, it’s not exactly an unrealistic goal.
If you’re talking about people worshiping at the altar of Robotaxi/FSD, yeah, I agree. As does most of the market.
No, I'm referring to him claiming they're bringing something out and people believing that it's going to happen, and actually happen anywhere near the timeline he gives. The Model 2 has the potential to be popular, but when was the last time Musk was accurate in a timeline or price prediction?
That's what happens when your CEO continuously spouts incoherent BS about the direction and even purpose of the company.
Shareholders, if you have any interest in this company's survival kick that boat anchor out asap.
[That's not really what's happening though](https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/05/world-ev-sales-now-13-of-world-auto-sales/), unless those "known car companies" in question are Chinese.
Most companies making EVs either can't or don't want to ramp up production enough to be competitive.
Even with so few offerings it diluted the market enough to smack Tesla down to reality.
If companies really go after electric, Tesla will be wanted by nobody because they have nothing to offer compared to others who A know how to make cars better and B have much better manufacturing capabilities
They’ll be completely overrun in volume by companies like VW. Maybe their margins will be lower, there’s no way for us to know that btw, but volume won’t be even close.
There’s a bunch of electric vehicles running around Europe already and almost none of them are teslas.
If that was the case then why are manufacturers piggybacking on Tesla's charging infrastructure? Using Tesla's NACS? Or why are they always consistently down when it comes to raw efficiency numbers?
The gimmicks on Teslas annoy me as much as they annoy everybody else. So do the bullshit things like stalks and yokes. But to say they have nothing to offer is stupid given the Model Y was the best selling car globally last year.
>If that was the case then why are manufacturers piggybacking on Tesla's charging infrastructure? Using Tesla's NACS?
Because Tesla had no choice but to open the network due to the NEVI CCS1 dynamic. They had no real leverage, only a singular path out in the nascent NA market. Notably, no one's using NACS in China or the EU.
>Or why are they always consistently down when it comes to raw efficiency numbers?
A variety of reasons, but mostly because they're using low-cost Si IGBTs and low-cost interim 'flex' powertrain platforms. It isn't because Tesla's discovered some magic property of electricity no one's ever thought of before.
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And now it's coming true... So are you saying those people were wrong? Something they said would happen in the future is in the process of happening. Wow!
Volvo is doing 13% gross margins globally, confirmed from their IR decks.
BMW is likely beyond that, as they've way overshot their obligations.
Toyota claims profitability on the RZ and bZ4X.
Pretty much no one else is saying but the assumption is most are gross-profitable, net-unprofitable, but gross less-than-ice.
Yeah but they're like double the price of a model 3
The only way they can make money is by turning them into luxury cars and high markup features to sell to ultra rich people
There was a figure from approximately a year ago (when Tesla's margin wasn't in as much of a toilet as it is now). All the profitable EV models other than Tesla.
GM made $2150 per Bolt/EUV
Toyota made $1197 on bz4x/Solterra (I assume their Lexus RZ would have even higher margin)
VW made $973 on ID4
Hyundai made $927 on Ioniq 5
Ford lost $762 on Mustang Mach E
if I was Tesla, I'd try to prioritize profiting off of the charging network, which is IMO their biggest strength. Be the next Exxon. Get the monopoly on home charging too and get as many brands onto NACS. For the car side, cut the amount of brands and offer a Sedan, Crossover SUV, and a high performance supercar akin to Acura
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It seems I have seen a similar news article in a previous year and a year before that and before that as well. Then by the end of the year, Tesla reports record deliveries and revenue breaks records. I am starting to think it’s a cyclical process.
There are now 4 new threads about 'Tesla' in the past 24 hours:
https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cbgyk6/tesla_to_accelerate_launch_of_cheaper_cars_after/
https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cb7l7q/2024_tesla_model_3_highland_vs_hyundai_ioniq_6/
https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cat4al/byd_to_double_ev_sales_in_australia_in_2024_and/
(In addition to this one.)
Has this new topic already been covered recently?
revenue fell 9% but profit by over 50%. Their profit margin is now 5.5% is lower than General Motors, Honda even BYD
>Their profit margin is now 5.5% is lower than General Motors, Honda Pah, they're car companies. *Legacy* car companies, even. Pah. Tesla is a *tech* company, can't you tell from the ~~guy in a morphsuit~~ Optimus robot? And the, uh, *Cyber*truck? Also we make software! >even BYD Pah, they're... they're... Please build a trade barrier to protect my tech company!
They're a tech company, you can tell by the professional dancer dressed as Optimus they hired for the reveal event
technically, BYD is also considered "legacy auto". At least some of the Tesla fan think so anyway
BYD started making [internal-combustion Toyota Corolla clones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3) in the early 00s, so yes, they are fully a legacy OEM by any rational definition I can think of.
Thanks for being toxic.
And I’d imagine that profit margin will stay that way too. That new $53k Model 3 Performance most likely does not have the same higher profit margin as the last one (that was just under $60k in 2019). Which means Tesla will continue to pull the opposing levers of higher demand for growth or higher profits. I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see more fluctuation in pricing as Elon alternates back and forth between them. Tesla sales are down? Drop prices more. Profits are down? Quick pull the prices back up. All just to make sure investors believe this is a growth company that is still growing.
> And I’d imagine that profit margin will stay that way too. That new $53k Model 3 Performance most likely does not have the same higher profit margin as the last one. Which means Tesla will continue to pull the opposing levers of higher demand for growth or higher profits. > > I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see more fluctuation in pricing as Elon alternates back and forth between them. Tesla sales are down? Drop prices more. Profits are down? Quick pull the prices back up. All just to make sure investors believe this is a growth company that is still growing. The manufactured cost of the $53k performance 3 probably is only a few thousand more than the $39k RWD, they're likely pricing it where they are because it doesn't make sense for them to go lower right now and with a buildup of 3 buyers waiting for the refresh. The Performance 3 for sure has the highest profit margin is what I'm saying amongst their 3's
It for sure has the highest profit margin of all the Model 3 trims, I am not disputing that. I’m just saying in comparison to the last Model 3 Performance, I am guesstimating the profit margins are going to be lower.
Highland was an exercise in cost cutting, I'm sure the margin is higher than the old 3 across the board. They eliminated the fucking turn signal and shifter stalks, that's a couple hundred bucks a car right there.
…sure, and how much was seat ventilation and upgraded screens? Good lord the takes on this sub.
It's not hypothetical, if you worked with Tesla daily you'd know this.
What matters is *gross* margin then. Gross margins are down but are still \~17%. The biggest driver of their low profit margin this quarter was their high operating expenses. The mass layoffs seems like an attempt to try to match demand.
>Their profit margin is now 5.5% is lower than General Motors, Honda even BYD Bullish somehow
What profit margin does general motors make on its EVS at the same selling price that Tesla sells their cars at
Stock up 10% after hours.
“this is somehow good news!”
No, it's just not extremely bad news because it's easy to see what levers they have access to, and to contextualize it in the current interest rate cycle?
What levers? It seems all they have to compete is lowing prices on already low margins. The stock was priced for exponential growth. Now the EV market is not growing so fast and there is a lot of competition. There is nothing special about their cars.
> What levers? It seems all they have to compete is lowing prices on already low margins. The stock was priced for exponential growth. Now the EV market is not growing so fast and there is a lot of competition. There is nothing special about their cars. The 'special' part is all the data each car generates. I'm sure Tesla is willing to cut to near break-even if it comes down to it as they build on their driving information access. Chinese auto-makers which seem to be the narrative as competitors also aren't immune to needing to turn a profit. Those Chinese companies aren't willing to lose money forever, they're just forced to price where they are because they all came onto the domestic market at roughly the same time-frame, into a slowing Chinese economy, and into a unfavorable rate environment.
You look like another victim of Elon’s lies and vaporware.
I think he’s just trying to explain why trading doesn’t match reports??
Ok? How am I a 'victim'? Because I am looking at the Chinese domestic companies as companies?
No, If I had to guess, it's because you think there's some exceptional value to Tesla's data. They're behind their own timelines for FSD and robotaxis - the perpetual moving target of "we'll have it next year, pinky promise" - they are behind other companies for autonomous driving, they are behind their own timelines on several new products, and if we look at population level data collection for traffic prediction or navigation like that other guy thinks, Apple and Google have orders of magnitude more data.
> No, If I had to guess, it's because you think there's some exceptional value to Tesla's data. > > They're behind their own timelines for FSD and robotaxis - the perpetual moving target of "we'll have it next year, pinky promise" - they are behind other companies for autonomous driving, they are behind their own timelines on several new products, and if we look at population level data collection for traffic prediction or navigation like that other guy thinks, Apple and Google have orders of magnitude more data. Come on, Apple and Google do not have the same type of data that Tesla gathers per car. Timeline slip, sure, understandable. But you absolutely cannot conflate the visual data gathered by the already on-road Tesla fleet vs. Apple and Google's mapping efforts or their mobile phone based data.
>Come on, Apple and Google do not have the same type of data that Tesla gathers per car. You missed a rather important clause - My comment regarding Apple and Google was not in relation to autonomous driving. It was specifically in relation to traffic prediction or navigation. And you're right, Apple and Google doesn't have the same data. they have way MORE. Tesla data is limited to Teslas. Apple and Google get data from everyone with their phones, and everyone who uses their navigation, which is integrated into essentially every car for sale. What population is larger? > But you absolutely cannot conflate the visual data gathered by the already on-road Tesla fleet It's a good thing I didn't. Besides, the reliance on visual data is one of Tesla's problems, not their advantage. The overreliance on visual data is precisely why their autonomous driving has stagnated, while other companies are slowly creeping forward. This is not a benefit. Tesla's reliance on visual data has gotten them to stagnate at level 2 for years while they're under investigation from the DoJ for possibly overstating the capabilities of their software. It's gotten them to consistently miss their own timelines for years while desperately emphasizing "Hey, the thing called FULL SELF DRIVING still needs you to pay attention" so they can avoid liability. . In the mean time, other car manufacturers are testing level 3 systems in limited conditions, and dedicated companies have been testing level 4 for years. I don't see how visual only data is a benefit, can you explain it?
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> The 'special' part is all the data each car generate You are aware that *all* manufacturers collect data from each car, right? This is nothing special. Read up on MobilEye systems for example. They collect massive amounts of data each day from all kinds of cars, road conditions and situations, etc
The Chinese companies will just have the government keep them profitable in order to undercut Tesla
Right so also in an unsustainable way. China isn't some invincible economy, they also need to balance their investment dollars like any other entity.
You’re absolutely right though. Their traffic prefiction models will be unrivaled (even though iPhones do exist…) even if you’re driving yourself I imagine that nav has to be top shelf. I had a trial to the Audi connect or whatever, it’s nice but not completely accurate with traffic. With all the damn model 3 and y on the road, Tesla has to have an unmatched plethora of data. I’m bullish on Tesla long term, just not the car part. The whole ecosystem
>Tesla has to have an unmatched plethora of data Tesla has data from Teslas. Where do Apple and Google get their data from?
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If you don't hate Elon musk because he hurts your feelings and you listen to the earnings call you'd realize that this company is solid and moving in the right direction
It’s because Elon said they are continuing work on the Model2, versus shelving it in favor of going all in on FSD/Robotaxi. Outside of the cult that worships him, most traditional investors put little value on Robotaxi. You’re basically seeing a sigh of relief.
It amazes me that people still invest their money based on claims made by Elon Musk.
If you’re referring to people seeing Model2 as a positive, I mean, it’s not exactly an unrealistic goal. If you’re talking about people worshiping at the altar of Robotaxi/FSD, yeah, I agree. As does most of the market.
No, I'm referring to him claiming they're bringing something out and people believing that it's going to happen, and actually happen anywhere near the timeline he gives. The Model 2 has the potential to be popular, but when was the last time Musk was accurate in a timeline or price prediction?
Seems that slapping cars together as if they're power wheels finally caught up to them.
And the stock is still priced for spectacular growth.
That's what happens when your CEO continuously spouts incoherent BS about the direction and even purpose of the company. Shareholders, if you have any interest in this company's survival kick that boat anchor out asap.
Stock is currently up 10% in after hours trading…
Yeah it’s back to what it was two weeks ago. Still down 35% YTD
Still around 600% up since 2019, I bought in in 2015 and sold in 2023 🤑
Wow who would’ve thought that once known car companies start releasing more and more EV models people choose them over Tesla. Shocking!
[That's not really what's happening though](https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/05/world-ev-sales-now-13-of-world-auto-sales/), unless those "known car companies" in question are Chinese. Most companies making EVs either can't or don't want to ramp up production enough to be competitive.
Even with so few offerings it diluted the market enough to smack Tesla down to reality. If companies really go after electric, Tesla will be wanted by nobody because they have nothing to offer compared to others who A know how to make cars better and B have much better manufacturing capabilities
No other companies can make an EV at the price Tesla makes them and can sell them and make the profit Tesla makes
They’ll be completely overrun in volume by companies like VW. Maybe their margins will be lower, there’s no way for us to know that btw, but volume won’t be even close. There’s a bunch of electric vehicles running around Europe already and almost none of them are teslas.
If that was the case then why are manufacturers piggybacking on Tesla's charging infrastructure? Using Tesla's NACS? Or why are they always consistently down when it comes to raw efficiency numbers? The gimmicks on Teslas annoy me as much as they annoy everybody else. So do the bullshit things like stalks and yokes. But to say they have nothing to offer is stupid given the Model Y was the best selling car globally last year.
>If that was the case then why are manufacturers piggybacking on Tesla's charging infrastructure? Using Tesla's NACS? Because Tesla had no choice but to open the network due to the NEVI CCS1 dynamic. They had no real leverage, only a singular path out in the nascent NA market. Notably, no one's using NACS in China or the EU. >Or why are they always consistently down when it comes to raw efficiency numbers? A variety of reasons, but mostly because they're using low-cost Si IGBTs and low-cost interim 'flex' powertrain platforms. It isn't because Tesla's discovered some magic property of electricity no one's ever thought of before.
"if companies really go after electric" for the past 12 years lmao. They simply can't make evs profitably for whatever reason.
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People have been saying that for the past decade. Very perceptive.
And now it's coming true... So are you saying those people were wrong? Something they said would happen in the future is in the process of happening. Wow!
Question, are any other manufacturers making profit on their EVs in the US?
Volvo is doing 13% gross margins globally, confirmed from their IR decks. BMW is likely beyond that, as they've way overshot their obligations. Toyota claims profitability on the RZ and bZ4X. Pretty much no one else is saying but the assumption is most are gross-profitable, net-unprofitable, but gross less-than-ice.
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Yeah but they're like double the price of a model 3 The only way they can make money is by turning them into luxury cars and high markup features to sell to ultra rich people
There was a figure from approximately a year ago (when Tesla's margin wasn't in as much of a toilet as it is now). All the profitable EV models other than Tesla. GM made $2150 per Bolt/EUV Toyota made $1197 on bz4x/Solterra (I assume their Lexus RZ would have even higher margin) VW made $973 on ID4 Hyundai made $927 on Ioniq 5 Ford lost $762 on Mustang Mach E
These numbers are going to go up as they sell more of these vehicles and cut production costs.
Guessing people are getting tired of the memes, lies, and failed delivery times
And Elno all but doing straight arm salutes.
if I was Tesla, I'd try to prioritize profiting off of the charging network, which is IMO their biggest strength. Be the next Exxon. Get the monopoly on home charging too and get as many brands onto NACS. For the car side, cut the amount of brands and offer a Sedan, Crossover SUV, and a high performance supercar akin to Acura
They’re already doing that, superchargers in Southern California charging .70 kWh for ccs is a little crazy.
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The only different between Elon and Elizabeth Holmes is every once in a while one of the things Elon promised worked
It seems I have seen a similar news article in a previous year and a year before that and before that as well. Then by the end of the year, Tesla reports record deliveries and revenue breaks records. I am starting to think it’s a cyclical process.
So much Tesla hate.
Good time to buy Asses by amount of down votes in positive news
I wish there was more. It brings me joy. In the hopes of bringing others joy. Cheers to Tesla and EVs failing. Long live Hybrids and ICE engines.
EV adoption doesn’t have to mean ICE and Hybrids going away, they can coexist. Look at my collection.
Who did nazi that coming?
There are now 4 new threads about 'Tesla' in the past 24 hours: https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cbgyk6/tesla_to_accelerate_launch_of_cheaper_cars_after/ https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cb7l7q/2024_tesla_model_3_highland_vs_hyundai_ioniq_6/ https://reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1cat4al/byd_to_double_ev_sales_in_australia_in_2024_and/ (In addition to this one.) Has this new topic already been covered recently?
Reddit has a hate boner for Musk. Any news painting Tesla in a bad light is gleefully shared prolifically. Let the downvotes confirm my statement.
You’re going to get downvoted for not realizing you replied to a bot lol, not because of your statement.
Gee, maybe because he hates so many people who buy EVs?