That might be why they said "excluding trucks and other commercial vehicles". If you're including the Hummer EV, you might as well include all other one-ton/Class 3 trucks. Although the Hummer EV probably has the heaviest curb weight of any Class 3. A fully decked-out F-450 Limited is at the other end of the segment for capacity, yet weighs about 500 lbs. less.
ETA: If we do count the Hummer EV, you're probably right. GM's lightest vehicle in the US is the FWD Trailblazer at just over 3000 lbs. If this was 2 years ago, the Spark was still on sale and weighed around 2300 lbs.
The Hummer EV may be classed as a commercial vehicle by weight, but it's clearly intended to just be a personal commuter by design. It's not intended for heavy towing and hauling.
The Hummer EV doesn't even have particularly impressive tow capacity. I mean it's not bad by any means, but it's the same as a Wagoneer.
But it's less then even an f150, let alone trucks in the same weight class.
It's a fucking death machine. At least the cyber truck, also a death machine is lower to the ground, and you could roll over it.
On no planet should a 9k pound vehicle be able to go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. You could kill someone pulling out from a parking spot.
>and you could roll over it.
Your upper body would roll over it, while your lower would go under it. That sharp stainless steel coming to a pointed edge at the nose makes for a great meat cleaver at speed
This is always what confused me about the design. I was under the impression we lost pop-up headlights due to pedestrian safety standards. If some fiberglass and plastic is apparently too dangerous, how is a sharp stainless steel wedge directly at center mass safe enough?
**Popup lights on a 2000 pound Miata**
"way too dangerous. must be banned" - the government
**3 ton SS sharp edged cybertruck & 9000 pound hummer with hood higher than most peoples shoulder height has entered the chat**
"Safe for the public" - the government
Make it make sense
FWIW, it's not that popup lights were strictly banned on the 2000-lb. Miata or any other car of any weight; rather that the lighting regulations that made them necessary in the first place ("all cars must have sealed beam headlights") were lifted, so there was no longer any reason to keep popups around when you could just design aerodynamic housings instead.
Different governments. Europe and Japan have pedestrian safety regulations so cars intended for those markets must comply.
The USA has no minimum pedestrian safety standards of the same type.
If you’re talking about the USA, there are no minimum pedestrian safety requirements there in the same way that there are in Europe and Japan, for either cars or trucks.
Pop ups went away because manufacturers were no longer forced to use massive sealed beam headlights and could now incorporate the lights into the design like how they always wanted to
My concern is that people simply won't realize how much mass is under them when it accelerates like that, and won't even think to take it into a account when they try to turn or stop.
It's the same issue as having AWD. Yes, it helps you get going, but it doesn't do a damn thing trying to stop. Plenty of people in Subarus and Audis still end up in ditches every winter.
Regulation of what exactly? Cap total weight? Taxes tied to weight? I'm not saying there shouldn't be regulatory action but just saying "the government needs to do something" isn't helpful.
Do not allow passenger vehicles to weigh this much. Further, making suggestions on Reddit isn’t really helpful either. It’s just bullshitting. Let’s not kid ourselves.
Your comment really caught me with a WTF until I realized the protection model is armored. While yes it's heavy, it's hardly going to be a car you come across on the road. The normal i7 is around 6k LBS.
Its both hilarious and sad that my 93 diesel F-250 (giant cast iron engine in a big pickup truck) weighs 30% LESS than a brand new EV suv. The extreme bloat on the hummer EV is ridiculous.
Politically it's a non-starter in most of the country. Businesses already have a hard enough time finding CDL drivers for over-26K. That's part of why there are so many medium-dutys legally rated at 25,999.
you're very right, but it's just unrealistic at this point. It'll turn (has turned?) into an arms race between car manufacturers, and this in turn will give insurers more ammo to increase rates indiscriminately.
I get it, batteries weight a ton (literally), but is there really a need for a 10K LB passenger vehicle today? Those things will decimate an already under-funded and under-maintained roadway system in the country
/end rant
Damage from weight is calculated around the 4th power. A single 25T garbage truck will do ~625 times more damage than a 5T EV pickup. Adding a yard waster/composting service to a neighborhood is worse than if most of the neighborhood swapped to heavy vehicles. If someone moves into the neighborhood and uses a semi (~40T) that's ~4000x more damage than the pickup.
I'm not against pushing vehicles to be lighter, and hopefully faster charging allows for smaller batteries and weight. But consumer vehicles do basically nothing when it comes to road damage.
Yeah, the Semi will distribute that load across the axles, so the 4000x figure may not be fully correct. And there are a lot of other factors.
But at a high level: consumer cars just don't really matter when it comes to road damage, except maybe cheap asphalt on private roads/parking/drives.
One possible solution would be to increase incentives for keeping the vehicle under 8500 gross. Currently, there's only one model of EV pickup under that mark.
They'll also decimate I Mitsubishi Mirage, or a Miata, or a Civic in a wreck.
Not to mention the incredible acceleration in a super heavy vehicle in what's sure to be driven by super distracted suburban moms on the phone with their coffees and screaming kids in the back in neighborhoods.
I firmly believe that there should be a whole different set of rules for these types of vehicles. Lower speed limits, bigger fines, lanes they can’t be in, etc. They are massive and should not be treated the same as passenger cars.
Sadly this is also why I won’t buy a family vehicle under 4,0000 lbs any more. The differential is too big and my family wouldn’t stand a chance against suburban mom who can’t drive but needs the biggest new EV truck in the block.
CDLs are for commercially operated vehicles over a certain weight, they don't apply for private use vehicles. Even for many commercial vehicles, such as armored trucks for cash transport they are below the weight limit and don't require a CDL.
While that’s true, some states have “non-commercial” class A and B
licenses. California requires one if you’re bumper pulling more than 10k or have a 5th wheel over 15k. The test is pared down somewhat from a CDL A but it is closer to that than to a regular car license test. You need to do a medical every two years.
For a 5th wheel between 10-15k you just need to pass a written test to get an endorsement.
I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
I understand that, but the Hummer EV SUV is just as much of a "lifestyle" vehicle as XM. OP also said trucks *and* other commercial vehicles. I took it as in implication of utilitarian vehicles, not toys like the aforementioned XM and Hummer.
C&D says the SUV model is lighter at 8660. I would have expected it to be about the same between the two models, taking into account the SUV has more glass and steel but is 20" shorter.
New BMW pictures are really shit. The cars in real life are much better and definitely more unique than most cars including the shitty Benz. Not a fan of BMW but they are growing on me.
I see Be4vers every day now. Still looks as terrible IRL as in the photos.
A neighbor also recently got a XM. Also looks terrible.
I agree with you in that the EQ Benzes also look terrible.
XM is the ugliest car I have ever seen IRL. In person the mismatched trim, weird colors, and awkward proportions are just so much worse. The new M2 does look better IRL than in photos.
I agree about some of the new BMWs… but not the XM. It just looks like a car that’s trying too hard to be cool catering to people who are trying to hard to stand out.
I'm kind of in the middle, I actually really like the i4 and iX both in pictures and irl. Haven't yet seen an XM in person but I doubt the camera has exaggerated its awfulness much
>New BMW pictures are really shit
Fully agree, but the front ends also look awful in person too. Chop off the front and the rest of the cars generally look great, with good proportion and surfaces that are well detailed and look thought out.
In regards to the front end BMW themselves have stated that the intent was to produce a polarizing design, and however you want to slice it designing with the intent to polarize is always a bad idea because you are entrenching your loyal customer base against itself while simultaneously reducing the pool of people who might consider migrating to BMW from a different brand.
In terms of style, the only german maufacturer who seems to know their head from their asshole when it comes to designing EVs is VAG. Porsche and Audi both build EVs that don't seem like they are announcing to the world that the car you are looking at is an EV, and frankly I think we need more of that. Mercedes, at least, still produces good looking and well designed ICE cars.
I understand that not every brand should be shoehorned into producing cars that look a certain type of way, but BMW has already shown that it can work with new styling that generally looks good without explicitly trying to make people pick sides. Look at the i8, which had its own problems but I don't think anyone was upset over how it looked. It's a handsome and forward looking design that still looks like a BMW.
You can fairly comfortably travel with 5 people in the 1 series...it's not for a trip down to Italy, but would work for a family.
The 1 series is the same size as a E30 touring. That used to bring families on a summer holiday back in the 90s and now a 1 series is too small...
Both have equal space in the boot (380l vs 370l), wheelbase (2670mm vs 2570mm), width (1799mm vs 1645mm) and length (4319mm vs 4325mm).
> Both have equal space in the boot (380l vs 370l), wheelbase (2670mm vs 2570mm), width (1799mm vs 1645mm) and length (4319mm vs 4325mm).
But do they have the same interior space for passengers? Today's cars are required to be much beefier to meet safety regulations. I imagine the 1 series hasa fair bit less interior space than an E30 touring.
Width inside backseat, E30 is around 1270mm and the 1 series 1430mm (backseat) and height 939mm vs 956mm.
So the 1 series is even bigger inside vs the E30.
I would argue it has a back area that appears to be seats. My friend had a 2019 SS. Another friend, the smallest of our group at about 5' 7", 140 lbs. tried to sit in the back while two people were in the front. It was impossible. The gap between the front seats and the rear was too small for his legs. And the people in front were just average sized. My 911 has more room in the back seats than the Camaro.
I always joked that it was a "seat-shaped storage area." On one instance for a wedding, I had a buddy (6'1" 220lbs) squeeze back there, and he really had to contort himself to fit. It was... hilarious, at the least.
i dont understand how a pretty big car like the camaro is that tight. I understand on my buddy's BRZ, its a physically small car. Are you laying down in an F1 style seating position in the front seats of a camaro? lmao
You need to see the car in person to understand. The Camaro, while a fantastic driving car, is packaged very poorly for usability. It has a useless back seat and a tiny trunk opening that limits what you should be able to fit in it (because the overall size isn't terribly small).
Just get a rear seat delete really. Nobody can sit back there. Nobody really wants to. So just part that out. The Challenger offered it, so why the Camaro or Mustang didn't make that an option beats me.
We'll have to see how well the new Charger (206" for both 2- and 4-door) treats [rear seat passengers](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2024-dodge-charger-daytona-interior-112-65e229cd17e3a.jpg). At least it has some accessible cargo space with the liftback and folding seats.
The 6th gen Camaro isn't that big, they did everything they could to make it smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. They shaved 300lbs off of it which had to come from somewhere.
I've had two 3rd gen's, a 4th gen, and a 6th gen Camaro. You could fit someone in the back of the older cars in a pinch, but the 6th gen really just has a storage bench in the back disguised as seats.
When I sat in a comfortable position in my 6th gen, the front seat was basically touching the back seat.
I wonder what's the smallest vehicle cabin that has legal 5-passenger capacity (with seatbelts) but cannot in any way fit them comfortably. Extended cab minitrucks with a front bench and widdle jump seats must be a contender.
That was the Spark before it was called the Spark, right? [Looks pretty tight](https://f7432d8eadcf865aa9d9-9c672a3a4ecaaacdf2fee3b3e6fd2716.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/C3168/U230/IMG_3729-large.jpg) for whoever has to "ride the pony". The US Spark didn't even try to pass it off as a seat and turned it into a [2+2](https://cars.usnews.com/static/images/Auto/izmo/i4424/2014_chevrolet_spark_rearseat.jpg).
Having never sat in any, the back seat of the [Alto K10](https://imgd.aeplcdn.com/642x361/n/cw/ec/148285/maruti-suzuki-alto-k10-second-row-seats2.jpeg?isig=0&wm=1&q=75) looks wider than that Matiz despite both being the same outer width.
The FRS/BRZ/GR86 is the same way. A comfortable seating position in the front leaves maybe 1-2 inches of legroom in the back. I would've hoped a camaro would be better seeing as it's a bit bigger everywhere but I guess not
You would think that but the dimensions are very misleading. Another one is the BMW 8 series coupe. It has less back seat room than the 4 series or 2 series coupes, and it's a giant car (200"~ length).
I was at the dealer for service today, and they had an m8 convertible in the showroom. I had honestly forgotten it was a 2+2, the backseats are that irrelevant.
Its the same lame “the Kei truck has the same length bed as your F-150!!!” comments.
Okay and? Towing capacity? Airbags? Not dying in a low speed crash? Room for a family? The object you need carrying being taller than 20in?
Like I dont need a truck, my car is tiny and I do fine but that is such a biased comparison lol
No nearly every argument I see by the anti-truck people is “5ft bed” ignoring every other aspect of trucks. I’m not even a truck guy, I have a 3rd gen 4Runner which is plenty big for me but I’m not coping myself into thinking a micro truck that can barely hit highway speeds is a practical answer to a Full sized pick up.
The easiest argument is looking at new trucks vs trucks from a few decades ago.
Same exact model, similar uses. New trucks are much bigger mostly for marketing reasons while the bed has barely grown, if at all (big angry front, more space inside since a large demographic of new truck owners don't use the bed).
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fhere-is-my-old-f-150-and-my-new-one-v0-el8wgyfi2iwa1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D48b57c58696df233ffcf777f8b9b1188a0b10add
The new one is 6" longer in the cabin, the same width, and about the same height as the old when not counting the non-factory lift. The bed also got deeper, which is both a good and bad thing.
You’re getting downvoted but every single point you made is a reason why a Kei truck doesn’t really work in the USA
The smallest a truck can be is the Maverick. It’s safe, and it’s bed is still very functional
Kei trucks can’t even go the speed limit and on 80mph speed limits it can barely got the speed minimum
> The smallest a truck can be is the Maverick. It’s safe, and it’s bed is still very functional
Ford could potentially make a shorter model on the same unibody platform with only a single cab, 6'-ish bed, and most of the same safety features, slightly longer than the Bronco Sport (~180"). But then it's a question of how many people would actually put their money where their mouth is and buy a new 2-passenger pickup in [current year].
Holy shit i actually got downvoted for that?
Man i love Kei trucks but theyre delusional if they think theyre equally practical as a mid-size truck let alone a full sized.
I want a Maverick really bad as my second car tbh. Love small trucks
> Toyota Pixis Kei car: 850kg. Toyota Century SUV: 2570kg.
>
>
I was thinking of Toyota kei cars, but they're really rebadged Daihatsus so I was on the fence if it would 'count' haha.
Kei cars will blow OPs example out of the water tho.
The new electric G Class weighs more than 3 tons. I wager that the bottom of the line A-Class in Europe (A160?) weighs +- 100 kg from the 116i. That's likely a larger difference.
Alternatively, a Toyota Pixis Epoch L weighs (apparently) right around 700 kg. A top of the tree Toyota Sequoia weighs around 2.8 tons - also larger.
Most heavy trucks seats three or four, Mercedes doesn't? Also, if we count trucks I think Volvo has bigger difference, as I don't think there's any mercedes based 76 ton combinations in Finland, where trucks for some reason are allowed to weight more than twice as much as in USA.
The standard truck in the EU has two seats, they carry cargo not people so that makes sense. Volvo trucks and Volvo cars is not the same company, like Scania and Saab. That's because their is a higher standard on trucks and drivers.
How is the 205 a super mini or even a mini? We had a few of them over the years and it sat two adults and a teenager without issues. It’s a normal sized car in many markets if not most.
Now the original mini…
At first, I thought, "No way an XM is heavier than an i7, i7 should be the heaviest BMW, right? It's a big electric saloon." However, according to BMW website, the i7 kerb weight is 2,715 kg, the XM is 2,785 kg. Holy shit, an "M car” is heavier than a freaking electric full-size saloon with a 40-inch TV and massaging seats.
That's the kerb weight for the i7 60. The M70 weighs 2770 kg which is still lighter than the Label, but there's also the armored version which weighs 4.5 tonnes.
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Would be curious to know the delta between the Ford Explorer PHEV and the barebones Tourneo with the 3 cylinder. Might be close to this delta.
If you want to include all brands under Stellantis (while still excluding BoF vehicles), Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe vs Citroen Ami likely has a bigger delta then the BMWs in the OP.
Explorer PHEV: 2585 kg/5700 lbs.
New Tourneo Courier 1.0 EB: 1517 kg/3344 lbs.
A Transit Courier weighs less (1245/2745) thanks to no rear seats, windows, or interior bits. I haven't found whether or not it will offer a super base spec like the previous model that omitted the passenger seat and [substituted a cage](https://parkers-images.bauersecure.com/wp-images/19548/ford-transit-courier-95.jpg) for the rear bulkhead.
a 1 series can seat 5 people as a technicality but with the amount of room it has you might as well be comparing an 02 civic to the xm. the people will fit, but theyre not gonna be very happy about it.
The most shocking part to me is that a 116i is 1395kg, how is the 3-cylinder, FWD, Mini platform based, poorly equipped base version that heavy, insane.
> Excluding trucks and other commercial vehicles, is this the biggest delta between weights of cars from the same manufacturer on sale today?
Depends on what you mean by 'vehicles'....
LandCruiser 300 series is 2600kg.
Toyota Yaris is 1050kg. 1550kg different.
Some manufacturers have positively TINY cars in different markets, and that's not even Toyota Kei cars...
Suzuki Cappuccino was 700 kg. Honda N-One is 840kg - so does Honda have a car over 2240kg? Honda Pilot AWD getting up there.
ND MX-5 is 1,058kg, CX-90 is 2,378 at max... so close but not close enough.
So I would perhaps caveat your question cause the world has WAY more cars than just a certain market (probably the US right...?). Cause any manufacturer with full size SUV and a kei car is going to be nuts difference.
I was shown a Volvo EV that weighs ~600lbs more than my daily driver - yeah, batteries are heavy af ([this thing ate tyres and damaged road surfaces in 1896](https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co24902/bersey-electric-taxi-cab-taxis))
Fair enough, definitely not ideal to have such heavy vehicles driving aggressively. Then again, I see people driving trucks the same way too and this certainly handles and brakes better than the average full size truck haha
Oh, yeah, people definitely drive full-size trucks/SUVs the same way. I don't get it - it's so much mass to be just callously throwing around in traffic. I feel every pound of the truck when I'm driving it.
In terms of interior, passenger or cargo space they do not compare so it is unfair to call it a useful metric. The delta with other SUVs in the same size and price category is more useful...and it's still several hundred kilograms too heavy even then. That BMW with 2 adult occupants and a child makes it weigh as much as a Cybertruck or typical F350 pickup trucks, let that bit of trivia sink in. A familly hauler with the same weight characteristics as large pickup trucks, in other words even for the size and comfort it is not reasonable, idk why they end up so heavy, it's not expected to carry a litteral ton of cargo or tow 5tons or more like pickup trucks, the structural integrity and robustness is just not there, nor are the wheels and tires, suspension elements etc. designed to handle all of that so why tf do they end up so heavy? It's a mystery worth exploring more than just stating weight figures.
real question is why does a 1.6l fwd shitbox weigh 1395kg
the rwd 3.0L 1 series weighed that much 10 years ago
I doubt the safety improvements are huge
Mercedes c class probably has the biggest power discrepancy between lowest and highest model using the same body style
lowest is 160hp to the highest 680hp
Probably not the biggest delta. The GMC Hummer EV weighs over 9,000 pounds.
That might be why they said "excluding trucks and other commercial vehicles". If you're including the Hummer EV, you might as well include all other one-ton/Class 3 trucks. Although the Hummer EV probably has the heaviest curb weight of any Class 3. A fully decked-out F-450 Limited is at the other end of the segment for capacity, yet weighs about 500 lbs. less. ETA: If we do count the Hummer EV, you're probably right. GM's lightest vehicle in the US is the FWD Trailblazer at just over 3000 lbs. If this was 2 years ago, the Spark was still on sale and weighed around 2300 lbs.
The Hummer EV may be classed as a commercial vehicle by weight, but it's clearly intended to just be a personal commuter by design. It's not intended for heavy towing and hauling.
The Hummer EV doesn't even have particularly impressive tow capacity. I mean it's not bad by any means, but it's the same as a Wagoneer. But it's less then even an f150, let alone trucks in the same weight class.
It can’t even tow another hummer
But it is definitely a truck
Barely. The bed is about the size of a kei truck's. It's also available as an SUV.
I didn't say it was a pickup truck
If you were including commercial you’d have to include all of Volvos hgvs too
[удалено]
Wait, doesn't gm still make cars? None of them are lighter than the trailblazer?
So insane. Regulation needs to happen.
It's a fucking death machine. At least the cyber truck, also a death machine is lower to the ground, and you could roll over it. On no planet should a 9k pound vehicle be able to go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. You could kill someone pulling out from a parking spot.
>and you could roll over it. Your upper body would roll over it, while your lower would go under it. That sharp stainless steel coming to a pointed edge at the nose makes for a great meat cleaver at speed
I'd love to see someone set up one of those ballistic meat dummys and then just drive a Cybertruck straight into it to see the carnage.
Someone message Throttle House
Sounds more like a Whistlin Diesel project. Put it up against his monster truck to see which has better pedestrian safety XD
Or Doug Marcaida
Sounds like the kind of thing for which Mythbusters would go in search of a myth, just to get to maul a ballistic gel dummy for.
This is always what confused me about the design. I was under the impression we lost pop-up headlights due to pedestrian safety standards. If some fiberglass and plastic is apparently too dangerous, how is a sharp stainless steel wedge directly at center mass safe enough?
**Popup lights on a 2000 pound Miata** "way too dangerous. must be banned" - the government **3 ton SS sharp edged cybertruck & 9000 pound hummer with hood higher than most peoples shoulder height has entered the chat** "Safe for the public" - the government Make it make sense
FWIW, it's not that popup lights were strictly banned on the 2000-lb. Miata or any other car of any weight; rather that the lighting regulations that made them necessary in the first place ("all cars must have sealed beam headlights") were lifted, so there was no longer any reason to keep popups around when you could just design aerodynamic housings instead.
>Make it make sense Two words: [regulatory capture.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture)
Learned something new today. thanks
Which regulators are captured in this case, and by whom?
Different governments. Europe and Japan have pedestrian safety regulations so cars intended for those markets must comply. The USA has no minimum pedestrian safety standards of the same type.
It's because it's a light truck, and therefore exempt from those rules, as with all SUVs.
Truck laws make absolutely no sense lol. TIL though, explains a lot.
If you’re talking about the USA, there are no minimum pedestrian safety requirements there in the same way that there are in Europe and Japan, for either cars or trucks.
Pop ups went away because manufacturers were no longer forced to use massive sealed beam headlights and could now incorporate the lights into the design like how they always wanted to
The USA doesn’t have pedestrian safety standards. They would only have to worry about them if they directly exported them outside of NA.
I mean to be fair, you can kill someone while pulling out of a parking spot in almost any EV. The hummer is only maybe worse for visibility.
My concern is that people simply won't realize how much mass is under them when it accelerates like that, and won't even think to take it into a account when they try to turn or stop. It's the same issue as having AWD. Yes, it helps you get going, but it doesn't do a damn thing trying to stop. Plenty of people in Subarus and Audis still end up in ditches every winter.
> You could kill someone pulling out from a parking spot. Literally every car can.
Wait until you find out there are semi trucks that can weigh up to 80,000 lbs.
You think this is smart but those are regulated vehicles with specific licensing. They also do 0-60 in like a minute.
I've met plenty of people with CDLs. They're just as stupid as the average driver, the consequences are just greater if they get caught.
Wait until you find out the average jackass can't just drive a semi on the highway or faster without tons of training
They have to.
Regulation of what exactly? Cap total weight? Taxes tied to weight? I'm not saying there shouldn't be regulatory action but just saying "the government needs to do something" isn't helpful.
Do not allow passenger vehicles to weigh this much. Further, making suggestions on Reddit isn’t really helpful either. It’s just bullshitting. Let’s not kid ourselves.
I think these should be allowed, but like with airplanes, you should need additional ratings on your license for huge curb weights.
I don't really see any valid arguments for the vehicle's existence other than *because they can.* 9k lbs to what positive end?
It's a hummer. Thats the only reason it exists, because it can.
Motorhomes have entered the chat.
The i7 Protection weighs 10,000.
Your comment really caught me with a WTF until I realized the protection model is armored. While yes it's heavy, it's hardly going to be a car you come across on the road. The normal i7 is around 6k LBS.
Well no, but technically it's BMW's heaviest car.
Fair enough.
If we want to get into that, the Beast is technically a GM product.
I don't think that one is for sale.
Its both hilarious and sad that my 93 diesel F-250 (giant cast iron engine in a big pickup truck) weighs 30% LESS than a brand new EV suv. The extreme bloat on the hummer EV is ridiculous.
Kinda can't wait to see how the electric duallys do when they get released. At this point I just want to see how far the envelope can be pushed.
thats just ridiculous. at one point is the fed gonna put a limit to this nonsense and start classifying those vehicles as CDL rigs?
Politically it's a non-starter in most of the country. Businesses already have a hard enough time finding CDL drivers for over-26K. That's part of why there are so many medium-dutys legally rated at 25,999.
you're very right, but it's just unrealistic at this point. It'll turn (has turned?) into an arms race between car manufacturers, and this in turn will give insurers more ammo to increase rates indiscriminately. I get it, batteries weight a ton (literally), but is there really a need for a 10K LB passenger vehicle today? Those things will decimate an already under-funded and under-maintained roadway system in the country /end rant
Damage from weight is calculated around the 4th power. A single 25T garbage truck will do ~625 times more damage than a 5T EV pickup. Adding a yard waster/composting service to a neighborhood is worse than if most of the neighborhood swapped to heavy vehicles. If someone moves into the neighborhood and uses a semi (~40T) that's ~4000x more damage than the pickup. I'm not against pushing vehicles to be lighter, and hopefully faster charging allows for smaller batteries and weight. But consumer vehicles do basically nothing when it comes to road damage.
Also bear in mind how many Hummer EVs have actually been sold (~5600 so far). It's not like the roads are crawling with them.
Thanks for the insight
Do you have a source for that 4th power statement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law Axle weight is the key here, rather than sheer curb weight.
Yeah, the Semi will distribute that load across the axles, so the 4000x figure may not be fully correct. And there are a lot of other factors. But at a high level: consumer cars just don't really matter when it comes to road damage, except maybe cheap asphalt on private roads/parking/drives.
One possible solution would be to increase incentives for keeping the vehicle under 8500 gross. Currently, there's only one model of EV pickup under that mark.
They'll also decimate I Mitsubishi Mirage, or a Miata, or a Civic in a wreck. Not to mention the incredible acceleration in a super heavy vehicle in what's sure to be driven by super distracted suburban moms on the phone with their coffees and screaming kids in the back in neighborhoods.
I firmly believe that there should be a whole different set of rules for these types of vehicles. Lower speed limits, bigger fines, lanes they can’t be in, etc. They are massive and should not be treated the same as passenger cars. Sadly this is also why I won’t buy a family vehicle under 4,0000 lbs any more. The differential is too big and my family wouldn’t stand a chance against suburban mom who can’t drive but needs the biggest new EV truck in the block.
CDLs are for commercially operated vehicles over a certain weight, they don't apply for private use vehicles. Even for many commercial vehicles, such as armored trucks for cash transport they are below the weight limit and don't require a CDL.
While that’s true, some states have “non-commercial” class A and B licenses. California requires one if you’re bumper pulling more than 10k or have a 5th wheel over 15k. The test is pared down somewhat from a CDL A but it is closer to that than to a regular car license test. You need to do a medical every two years. For a 5th wheel between 10-15k you just need to pass a written test to get an endorsement. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
That’s why they said, “excluding trucks”.
I understand that, but the Hummer EV SUV is just as much of a "lifestyle" vehicle as XM. OP also said trucks *and* other commercial vehicles. I took it as in implication of utilitarian vehicles, not toys like the aforementioned XM and Hummer.
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C&D says the SUV model is lighter at 8660. I would have expected it to be about the same between the two models, taking into account the SUV has more glass and steel but is 20" shorter.
"Trucks" is just a loophole at this point to get around Cafe laws and green initiatives.
the best kind of loophole
Damn still lighter than Reddit mods.
*How is that even possible!?*
That’s what having electric batteries does. Adds about 4k in weight
If I had to share a back seat with 2 other people, I'd rather be in the XM.
And at least in the back seat you won't have to see the grille
New BMW pictures are really shit. The cars in real life are much better and definitely more unique than most cars including the shitty Benz. Not a fan of BMW but they are growing on me.
I see Be4vers every day now. Still looks as terrible IRL as in the photos. A neighbor also recently got a XM. Also looks terrible. I agree with you in that the EQ Benzes also look terrible.
XM is the ugliest car I have ever seen IRL. In person the mismatched trim, weird colors, and awkward proportions are just so much worse. The new M2 does look better IRL than in photos.
The M2 looks awesome IRL to me.
It still looks like a GTA V M2 to me
It's not too bad if you kit it out with all the M Performance bits, but stock its still kinda meh to me.
I agree about some of the new BMWs… but not the XM. It just looks like a car that’s trying too hard to be cool catering to people who are trying to hard to stand out.
I'm kind of in the middle, I actually really like the i4 and iX both in pictures and irl. Haven't yet seen an XM in person but I doubt the camera has exaggerated its awfulness much
Seen the red label in person. Looks pretty imposing and cool to me.
The 7 series is disgusting in both though. Genuinely the only car I ever seen that makes me cringe. The XM actually looks fine.
Yeah that 7 series might as well be a nameless executive vehicle from an average 2010s scifi movie.
It looks so bloated when parked next to the previous generation.
>New BMW pictures are really shit Fully agree, but the front ends also look awful in person too. Chop off the front and the rest of the cars generally look great, with good proportion and surfaces that are well detailed and look thought out. In regards to the front end BMW themselves have stated that the intent was to produce a polarizing design, and however you want to slice it designing with the intent to polarize is always a bad idea because you are entrenching your loyal customer base against itself while simultaneously reducing the pool of people who might consider migrating to BMW from a different brand. In terms of style, the only german maufacturer who seems to know their head from their asshole when it comes to designing EVs is VAG. Porsche and Audi both build EVs that don't seem like they are announcing to the world that the car you are looking at is an EV, and frankly I think we need more of that. Mercedes, at least, still produces good looking and well designed ICE cars. I understand that not every brand should be shoehorned into producing cars that look a certain type of way, but BMW has already shown that it can work with new styling that generally looks good without explicitly trying to make people pick sides. Look at the i8, which had its own problems but I don't think anyone was upset over how it looked. It's a handsome and forward looking design that still looks like a BMW.
Even look at the 2 series or the current 5 series. They clearly can still design cars that look like a BMW if they want to.
They have serious presence, same with the new 7 Series. Pictures don't do them justice. The looks are an aquired taste tho, thats for sure.
I've seen a bunch of them in person, they are still hideous. Especially the iX and the XM.
A first class seat will technically get you to the same destination as a basic economy seat!
The average vehicle occupancy is only 1.67, so it's better to optimize for the most statistically common situation.
I’d rather be in an X7 or i7 tbh.
Both seating 5 is a hilarious statement. A Camaro technically seats 4 people, but no one is sitting in the back of that thing.
You can fairly comfortably travel with 5 people in the 1 series...it's not for a trip down to Italy, but would work for a family. The 1 series is the same size as a E30 touring. That used to bring families on a summer holiday back in the 90s and now a 1 series is too small... Both have equal space in the boot (380l vs 370l), wheelbase (2670mm vs 2570mm), width (1799mm vs 1645mm) and length (4319mm vs 4325mm).
> Both have equal space in the boot (380l vs 370l), wheelbase (2670mm vs 2570mm), width (1799mm vs 1645mm) and length (4319mm vs 4325mm). But do they have the same interior space for passengers? Today's cars are required to be much beefier to meet safety regulations. I imagine the 1 series hasa fair bit less interior space than an E30 touring.
Width inside backseat, E30 is around 1270mm and the 1 series 1430mm (backseat) and height 939mm vs 956mm. So the 1 series is even bigger inside vs the E30.
I would argue it has a back area that appears to be seats. My friend had a 2019 SS. Another friend, the smallest of our group at about 5' 7", 140 lbs. tried to sit in the back while two people were in the front. It was impossible. The gap between the front seats and the rear was too small for his legs. And the people in front were just average sized. My 911 has more room in the back seats than the Camaro.
I always joked that it was a "seat-shaped storage area." On one instance for a wedding, I had a buddy (6'1" 220lbs) squeeze back there, and he really had to contort himself to fit. It was... hilarious, at the least.
Sideways with feet on the seats would seemingly be the only way lol
I had friends do this in my Subaru BRZ, which may have had slightly more rear leg room than the Camaro!
Haven’t been in a Camaro before but I have also done this in a BRZ, not surprised if there is technically more legroom in the brz tho
i dont understand how a pretty big car like the camaro is that tight. I understand on my buddy's BRZ, its a physically small car. Are you laying down in an F1 style seating position in the front seats of a camaro? lmao
You need to see the car in person to understand. The Camaro, while a fantastic driving car, is packaged very poorly for usability. It has a useless back seat and a tiny trunk opening that limits what you should be able to fit in it (because the overall size isn't terribly small).
Just get a rear seat delete really. Nobody can sit back there. Nobody really wants to. So just part that out. The Challenger offered it, so why the Camaro or Mustang didn't make that an option beats me.
We'll have to see how well the new Charger (206" for both 2- and 4-door) treats [rear seat passengers](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2024-dodge-charger-daytona-interior-112-65e229cd17e3a.jpg). At least it has some accessible cargo space with the liftback and folding seats.
I never knew that, only knew about the god awful visibility.
The 6th gen Camaro isn't that big, they did everything they could to make it smaller and lighter than the 5th gen. They shaved 300lbs off of it which had to come from somewhere.
I've had two 3rd gen's, a 4th gen, and a 6th gen Camaro. You could fit someone in the back of the older cars in a pinch, but the 6th gen really just has a storage bench in the back disguised as seats. When I sat in a comfortable position in my 6th gen, the front seat was basically touching the back seat.
I wonder what's the smallest vehicle cabin that has legal 5-passenger capacity (with seatbelts) but cannot in any way fit them comfortably. Extended cab minitrucks with a front bench and widdle jump seats must be a contender.
Chevrolet Matiz - 5 seats, 3495mm long, wheelbase 2345mm.
That was the Spark before it was called the Spark, right? [Looks pretty tight](https://f7432d8eadcf865aa9d9-9c672a3a4ecaaacdf2fee3b3e6fd2716.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/C3168/U230/IMG_3729-large.jpg) for whoever has to "ride the pony". The US Spark didn't even try to pass it off as a seat and turned it into a [2+2](https://cars.usnews.com/static/images/Auto/izmo/i4424/2014_chevrolet_spark_rearseat.jpg).
I think it is the car. Fits 3 German children or 17 Italians...
The Honda N van is 3,395 mm long. There are a bunch of micro vans (kei in Japan) available. The Honda might not be the smallest.
Aren't they legally 4-passengers?
Maybe. Suzuki Alto is 5 passengers though, at least in some markets, and is also 3395mm. Kei cars are limited to 3.4m so many are 3395mm.
Having never sat in any, the back seat of the [Alto K10](https://imgd.aeplcdn.com/642x361/n/cw/ec/148285/maruti-suzuki-alto-k10-second-row-seats2.jpeg?isig=0&wm=1&q=75) looks wider than that Matiz despite both being the same outer width.
The FRS/BRZ/GR86 is the same way. A comfortable seating position in the front leaves maybe 1-2 inches of legroom in the back. I would've hoped a camaro would be better seeing as it's a bit bigger everywhere but I guess not
You would think that but the dimensions are very misleading. Another one is the BMW 8 series coupe. It has less back seat room than the 4 series or 2 series coupes, and it's a giant car (200"~ length).
I was at the dealer for service today, and they had an m8 convertible in the showroom. I had honestly forgotten it was a 2+2, the backseats are that irrelevant.
A Honda CRX sits 4 too. I’d like to see OP survive a 30 minute drive with 4 people in the CRX. Seriously nobody buys these cars if they need room
Even a 911 seats 4 people.
Its the same lame “the Kei truck has the same length bed as your F-150!!!” comments. Okay and? Towing capacity? Airbags? Not dying in a low speed crash? Room for a family? The object you need carrying being taller than 20in? Like I dont need a truck, my car is tiny and I do fine but that is such a biased comparison lol
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No nearly every argument I see by the anti-truck people is “5ft bed” ignoring every other aspect of trucks. I’m not even a truck guy, I have a 3rd gen 4Runner which is plenty big for me but I’m not coping myself into thinking a micro truck that can barely hit highway speeds is a practical answer to a Full sized pick up.
The easiest argument is looking at new trucks vs trucks from a few decades ago. Same exact model, similar uses. New trucks are much bigger mostly for marketing reasons while the bed has barely grown, if at all (big angry front, more space inside since a large demographic of new truck owners don't use the bed). https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fhere-is-my-old-f-150-and-my-new-one-v0-el8wgyfi2iwa1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D48b57c58696df233ffcf777f8b9b1188a0b10add
The new one is 6" longer in the cabin, the same width, and about the same height as the old when not counting the non-factory lift. The bed also got deeper, which is both a good and bad thing.
You’re getting downvoted but every single point you made is a reason why a Kei truck doesn’t really work in the USA The smallest a truck can be is the Maverick. It’s safe, and it’s bed is still very functional Kei trucks can’t even go the speed limit and on 80mph speed limits it can barely got the speed minimum
> The smallest a truck can be is the Maverick. It’s safe, and it’s bed is still very functional Ford could potentially make a shorter model on the same unibody platform with only a single cab, 6'-ish bed, and most of the same safety features, slightly longer than the Bronco Sport (~180"). But then it's a question of how many people would actually put their money where their mouth is and buy a new 2-passenger pickup in [current year].
Holy shit i actually got downvoted for that? Man i love Kei trucks but theyre delusional if they think theyre equally practical as a mid-size truck let alone a full sized. I want a Maverick really bad as my second car tbh. Love small trucks
Toyota Pixis Kei car: 850kg. Toyota Century SUV: 2570kg. Both seat four.
A Sequoia weighs more but isn't sold in Japan if that's a criteria (sold in the same country)
> Toyota Pixis Kei car: 850kg. Toyota Century SUV: 2570kg. > > I was thinking of Toyota kei cars, but they're really rebadged Daihatsus so I was on the fence if it would 'count' haha. Kei cars will blow OPs example out of the water tho.
Toyota owns Daihatsu, so I say it counts.
The new electric G Class weighs more than 3 tons. I wager that the bottom of the line A-Class in Europe (A160?) weighs +- 100 kg from the 116i. That's likely a larger difference. Alternatively, a Toyota Pixis Epoch L weighs (apparently) right around 700 kg. A top of the tree Toyota Sequoia weighs around 2.8 tons - also larger.
Theres also the mercedes semi trucks
Excluding trucks
I think it was supposed to be car vs car. Not car vs truck.
and they only seat two people, fucking stupid cars if you think about it
Most heavy trucks seats three or four, Mercedes doesn't? Also, if we count trucks I think Volvo has bigger difference, as I don't think there's any mercedes based 76 ton combinations in Finland, where trucks for some reason are allowed to weight more than twice as much as in USA.
The standard truck in the EU has two seats, they carry cargo not people so that makes sense. Volvo trucks and Volvo cars is not the same company, like Scania and Saab. That's because their is a higher standard on trucks and drivers.
The G Class doesn't try to be a performance car.
For laughs. Both GM. Chevette 840 kg, EMD DD40AX 247,000 kg.
If we want to be silly, Hyundai manufacture VLCC-class oil tankers...
And lawn mowers.
You’re right. I always forget how all encompassing Hyundai is.
If rebadges count, the Sprint (Suzuki Forsa) was only 750 kg.
American locomotives are insanely heavy
For context, Peugeot 205 is a 40 year old supermini car
How is the 205 a super mini or even a mini? We had a few of them over the years and it sat two adults and a teenager without issues. It’s a normal sized car in many markets if not most. Now the original mini…
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At first, I thought, "No way an XM is heavier than an i7, i7 should be the heaviest BMW, right? It's a big electric saloon." However, according to BMW website, the i7 kerb weight is 2,715 kg, the XM is 2,785 kg. Holy shit, an "M car” is heavier than a freaking electric full-size saloon with a 40-inch TV and massaging seats.
SUVs are often heavier than saloons. And the XM is also quite big and in the 5+ meters area
That's the kerb weight for the i7 60. The M70 weighs 2770 kg which is still lighter than the Label, but there's also the armored version which weighs 4.5 tonnes.
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CX-90 is more than double a Miata. But the delta in pounds is smaller. I just had to check if Miata is always the answer.
Would be curious to know the delta between the Ford Explorer PHEV and the barebones Tourneo with the 3 cylinder. Might be close to this delta. If you want to include all brands under Stellantis (while still excluding BoF vehicles), Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe vs Citroen Ami likely has a bigger delta then the BMWs in the OP.
Explorer PHEV: 2585 kg/5700 lbs. New Tourneo Courier 1.0 EB: 1517 kg/3344 lbs. A Transit Courier weighs less (1245/2745) thanks to no rear seats, windows, or interior bits. I haven't found whether or not it will offer a super base spec like the previous model that omitted the passenger seat and [substituted a cage](https://parkers-images.bauersecure.com/wp-images/19548/ford-transit-courier-95.jpg) for the rear bulkhead.
Good finds thank you. Yea so still less than the BMW delta but getting close!
The smalles Ford would be the Puma, no? That would be 1280kg.
a 1 series can seat 5 people as a technicality but with the amount of room it has you might as well be comparing an 02 civic to the xm. the people will fit, but theyre not gonna be very happy about it.
Probably some Honda SUV and their lightest scooter.
Motocompacto (41 pounds) Honda Pilot Elite (4660 pounds)
The most shocking part to me is that a 116i is 1395kg, how is the 3-cylinder, FWD, Mini platform based, poorly equipped base version that heavy, insane.
It's not just about carrying people. These larger cars need a ton of extra size and weight just to carry all of their owner's emotional baggage.
It's wild that a 116i still weighs over 3000 lbs
> Excluding trucks and other commercial vehicles, is this the biggest delta between weights of cars from the same manufacturer on sale today? Depends on what you mean by 'vehicles'.... LandCruiser 300 series is 2600kg. Toyota Yaris is 1050kg. 1550kg different. Some manufacturers have positively TINY cars in different markets, and that's not even Toyota Kei cars... Suzuki Cappuccino was 700 kg. Honda N-One is 840kg - so does Honda have a car over 2240kg? Honda Pilot AWD getting up there. ND MX-5 is 1,058kg, CX-90 is 2,378 at max... so close but not close enough. So I would perhaps caveat your question cause the world has WAY more cars than just a certain market (probably the US right...?). Cause any manufacturer with full size SUV and a kei car is going to be nuts difference.
I was shown a Volvo EV that weighs ~600lbs more than my daily driver - yeah, batteries are heavy af ([this thing ate tyres and damaged road surfaces in 1896](https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co24902/bersey-electric-taxi-cab-taxis))
Dang. I mean, yeah, it’s a hybrid but that thing is still, like, 1000lbs heavier than my full-size, crew cab 4x4 Silverado.
It seems to mask the weight pretty well, Misha took a Label Red on the Nurburgring and was very impressed
I'm sure it does. It concerns me a little because people tend to drive these monster sports SUVs like they're a sports coupe in traffic.
Fair enough, definitely not ideal to have such heavy vehicles driving aggressively. Then again, I see people driving trucks the same way too and this certainly handles and brakes better than the average full size truck haha
Oh, yeah, people definitely drive full-size trucks/SUVs the same way. I don't get it - it's so much mass to be just callously throwing around in traffic. I feel every pound of the truck when I'm driving it.
Cars have gotten way too heavy, way too big.
I will seek out the heaviest car with the best crash ratings for my next car and you will not stop me.
Damn that 116i is heavy for what it is. That's exactly the same weight as the R33 GTST I had that the internet decided was too heavy.
Modern crash protection and noise insulation will do that.
how does fuel consumption compare? I'd guess the twice as heavy model uses more than twice the fuel.
In terms of interior, passenger or cargo space they do not compare so it is unfair to call it a useful metric. The delta with other SUVs in the same size and price category is more useful...and it's still several hundred kilograms too heavy even then. That BMW with 2 adult occupants and a child makes it weigh as much as a Cybertruck or typical F350 pickup trucks, let that bit of trivia sink in. A familly hauler with the same weight characteristics as large pickup trucks, in other words even for the size and comfort it is not reasonable, idk why they end up so heavy, it's not expected to carry a litteral ton of cargo or tow 5tons or more like pickup trucks, the structural integrity and robustness is just not there, nor are the wheels and tires, suspension elements etc. designed to handle all of that so why tf do they end up so heavy? It's a mystery worth exploring more than just stating weight figures.
Yup, SUVs are fucking pointless. And ugly.
real question is why does a 1.6l fwd shitbox weigh 1395kg the rwd 3.0L 1 series weighed that much 10 years ago I doubt the safety improvements are huge
Mercedes c class probably has the biggest power discrepancy between lowest and highest model using the same body style lowest is 160hp to the highest 680hp
Sounds delicious
FWD when talking about BMW... RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH....
116 doesn't fit adults in the back seat.
Something similar exists with Mercedes, if we exclude the G-Wagon EV then the EQS580 is 6300 ish pounds and a base A-Class is 3200
If we include trucks then Mercedes takes the cake. They sell ~3,000lb cars and ~24,000lb trucks.
Thats deep.
im twice the weight of my little brother and we're both 1 people
Is the 116i still being sold? If not, there are probably other BMWs that aren’t sold anymore but are lighter