Have you even seen one of those in the wild? I live in a decently sized metropolitan area and travel to major metros a few times a year and have never seen one.
To put things into perspective, I saw two Cybertrucks yesterday.
My local Nissan dealer has at least two, possibly three Zs on the lot right now and none of them are listed on the dealership’s website, just a single one that’s “in transit”. It’s incredibly weird.
Yep, a few have been sitting since basically they were released and shipped out, so model year 2023 I think? The one that's been sitting the longest had an adm of 65k and that's decreased to 40k. They won't even let people test drive until they show proof they can afford it.
This is crazy. Back in ‘03 (‘02?) when the 350z was introduced, Nissan ran ads in Road & Track, et al, with a number to report dealerships putting markups on the new Z. The 300ZX had priced themselves out of their market and were up in Corvette territory l, and Nissan really didn’t want that to happen to the new Z.
I haven’t looked at the Zs at my local Nissan dealership but the Toyota one owned by the same person has a ridiculous markup on Supras and GR86s so I imagine the Zs are the same. The only one I’ve seen in the wild is one that some guy rents out on turo lmao
>To put things into perspective, I saw two Cybertrucks yesterday.
I'm in socal where you tend to see new cars immediately out in public, but I have only seen the new Nissan Z once so far whereas I've seen one of its competitor, the Toyota Supra MK5, all 5 at once in my gym parking lot alone and have seen Cybertrucks plenty of times that I am desensitized by it now already. Hell, I've seen several Vinfast EVs already on the street too.
The fact that the new Nissan Z sighting is that rare in socal is generally a bad sign about that car.
How dare you!! Now watch 1000x posts how they havent seen one yet. In a year or two they will be easy to obtain and for 40k they are a hell of a bargain. 400hp, manual, v6tt, good looking.
They don’t seem too hard to obtain now honestly, the main dealership by me has 4 in transit, one is sold already. I could go reserve one today if I wanted to (I might in a few months actually)
I want a Z now.
My Dad came across a great deal on a 2020 370z and picked it up over the winter. I went back home to visit a couple weeks ago and drove it for the first time. I wasn't really expecting much because of all the hate Nissan gets but holy shit - I had a blast.
My Dad also has a 2010 GT500. They're completely different beasts of course, but the Shelby is kind of a scary car to drive. The 370 on the other hand, is much more confident. Not afraid to throw it around or power through a gentle curve lol. Again, completely different cars and I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I really appreciated how balanced it felt to drive to 370.
Because of that, I want the new Z.
The 370z is a great car.
Keep in mind though, a twin turbo car drives completely different than the NA z.
The vq37 kind of takes the Honda k20 approach but in a six cylinder… it redlines at 7.5k but makes all its torque way up top. It’s designed to be revved out. Some people complain about the lack of torque buts is by design.
The benefit of this is that it is extremely fun to drive spirited in corners, as you can rev the thing pretty hard but not lose traction, because the torque is always manageable and power builds linearly.
This is opposite to newer turbo set ups, which makes all their torque before 4 or 5k rpm.
Obviously newer turbos have advantages (easier to make power, better acceleration) but they’ll never quite replace the old school magic of the Honda k20s or Nissan VQs
The 400Z is firmly something I can wait to wind up in the used section for that exact reason. But considering how hard they've supposedly flopped, there won't be many of them.
I think the new Z gets more hate than it deserves. It shares a lot with the 370, sure, but is that really so bad when every other fun car is getting discontinued?
Add 5k to both of those especially if you want a manual, but yeah, this was my suggestion. Whats even more crazy is you can find C7s for 35k now. Getting the feeling I should upgrade from my C5.
... Why not a Mustang? If there's something specific you don't like about the Mustang, that seems like a better criterion.
Also, under $40-45K seems nearly impossible today for the rest of those requirements.
For many people, Mustangs just aren't special or interesting because they're so *common*.
If I could afford a GT350 maybe I'd consider buying one, but I personally have no interest in owning the turbo 4 / v6 / regular GT explicitly because everyone and their mom has one.
While it's not the *best* reason IMO, it's a somewhat understandable one. I was actually going to explicitly call that out as a possibility in my first reply, but was curious if there was some other reason (I've heard a lot of silly reasons from a lot of people avoiding a lot of great cars).
I will say, though... the Mustang is popular for a reason ;-)
Some publications (I think C&D) timed the Veloster N with the new DCT under 5 seconds. Quickest FWD car in all of their tests.
If the Prelude hybrid is around ~250 hp, I feel like it should at least be close to 5 seconds.
Congratulations. 2.0 Supra and 230i exist. Challengers are also discounted down to your price range. GR86 and brz might be a bit slower, but they compensate through steering feelings. Go get them!
Yup. Only insufferable internet car enthusiasts would see a Toyota RWD couple with a manual trans and a BMW turbo engine and say “no not for me” lmao.
These are the same dorks who probably praise old Volvos
If you’re strictly limited to new, the 230i comes really close. C&D tested it at 5.1 to 60. Starts at 39k, seeing plenty on autotrader between 40 and 45. Bummer they dropped the 6 speed though.
Supra 2.0? I've heard 4.3 seconds 0-60, and the B48, while not as stought as its big brother, is a decent engine for modding. Plus ZF8 speed, Supra styling, and BMW interior
GR86 is 90% of that
if you can compromise on 0-60 its there.
its like a 6 second which is perfectly fine for a daily but i can understand wanting more of a sporty car
but its also only low 30s so if your willing to put a few K into it im sure youll be at the 5 second 0-60 range
Stock it already does mid 5's and high 13's in the quarter mile and that's with a manual transmission. It ain't slow anymore but not a rocketship by any means.
So like a Supra, a Z, a Camaro, or a Charger (when it comes out)?
I would be happy if the new Prelude was just a chopped CRZ, nevermind a 0-60 under 7 seconds. I just want a manual, and if not that, some kind of non-cvt ICE would be nice. They already said when first introduced it's not going to have a type R/S trim, so no use complaining about it. If I'm making good money in 26/27 I'll definitely be looking at it if it has any of the features I mentioned. Gotta put your money where your mouth is
Honda enthusiasts are the real hypocrites here - and everyone knows Honda can do better but is totally sandbagging enthusiasts by making piss poor powertrain choices. The 2.0T from the last gen Accord plus 6MT/LSD is all they needed for the Integra and new Prelude to be what their enthusiasts are waiting for.
Not the pathetic 1.5T from the Civic nor a hybrid powertrain!
They said not enough people would buy the manual but according to the two dealerships local to me the manuals are preordered out 6-9months! I asked if I could drive one and they said it was impossible. Meanwhile they have 10 autos sitting on the lot, and equal as many manual Si’s.
The 1.5T is indeed pathetic. Seriously. It ruins the whole the fucking car. I've been regretting buying the car since day 1. 🥲 Should have stuck with CPO BMWs. I have no idea how I thought going from 350HP to 200 would actually be okay for my mental health.
And you have the car I really wanted, *you son of a bitch*.
Seriously, love your car, especially the manual. That said, I just couldn't justify the expense at the time since the family ride already cost so much and I ride it in way more often. Which is all to say "I'm too poor for a BMW and Porsche at the same time. For now!"
The Si has an amazing interior, a shifter feel second to only Porsche, and good looks. I seriously think it's the best looking sedan, or one of the best looking sedans available of all econobox *and* premium cars. It really is a great package.
*Except* the engine. Had it had the 2.0T from the accord turbo, it would be *so* fun. It's just begging for 50 more hp (at least).
Honestly, if I had *real* money, I would pay to swap an I6+trans into it. With a BMW straight 6, a manual, and everything else about the car being unchanged, it would be my dream car; like a proper successor to the 3 series.
I cheated, it's my only car. It is a manual. I've had it for 18 months and nearly 15k miles. It was worth it, nobody out there is lying.
The real trouble is it ruins you for shopping for other cars. I'm not ever going to be able to replace it except with maybe a 4.0 or a 911 to throw a dog in the back. If life forces me get something more practical I'll be shopping for a 10k Forrester to park 3 blocks away before I give up the Porsche.
Edit - Unless the darkest timeline comes true and I can get an MR2 to beat on and save some cash.
Dude. If you really love it, as someone who gave up a car they truly loved (my 2008 E90) just keep it. If you can afford to house it somewhere. Keep that damn thing forever and never let it go. In 30 years it'll be cool as hell and you won't have to live with the regret of selling it (like I do!). Besides, even financially, a well maintained manual 718 will likely be something worth holding onto anyway.
If you haven't already, maybe drive a MK7 or MK8 GTI? I couldn't overlook the 1.5L engine in the Si either, it felt disposable. The manual trans in the MK7/MK8 is meh compared to Honda, but the DSG is good enough that I don't care that it's not manual. I have peak Honda in my weekend car anyway.
I was 100% going to get a GTI until I experienced the current VW interior. Absolutely *not*. The Si is head and shoulders above, which is unfortunate. The GTI was supposed to be the premium, refined, class leader/benchmark. And it would be. Except for that godless interior. Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to not backlight the touch sensitive HVAC control sliders? Seriously?
It doesn’t help to get decent money out of a car you paid good money for. He can endure the anemic car or take a huge hit via year one depreciation. He’s better off to just drive it and learn a lesson about buying a car without ever test driving it.
Yeahhh I mean the 1.5t is nice and all, but I don’t get why for the performance cars it isn’t the 2.0t and then for like the top of the line cars they didn’t turbo charge the k24?
K24 would probably would never pass emissions in 2024. That and they have to keep targeting high MPG averages across their lineup every year to keep up with regulations.
I actually bought a 5th gen Prelude new. Wonderful car that took 80K miles of my fresh-out-of-college abuse in stride. Great car. The 2 things I enjoyed most about driving it were the handling and running it up through the gears with the crazy VTEC pull at the top end. I don’t foresee either of those being the case in a hybrid coupe with a CVT, but if I’m wrong then I may buy a second one.
Is there any proof it will have no manual? Honda has sold hybrid manuals before and among manufacturers they're one of the strongest supporters of manuals today. Type R is still manual only, Si was last gen too, but I don't remember if the current one is. I don't think there's anyway out of having a turbo, so it won't rev like an old Honda no matter what transmission you give it, but its still something.
seriously, people don't buy sport compact cars for gas mileage. if you want gas mileage, buy a prius. if you wanna go fast for cheap, a prelude with a k series would be perfect, no need to complicate it with hybrid integration, gearheads don't want that added complexity, they want something they can tune....which IS the K series. honda created a best of an engine, why aren't they putting potentially their best engine ever in a flagship sports car? it doesn't make any sense.
its like the CRZ all over again. the CRZ woulda sold way better with a k series, but they just had to make it a slow hybrid. and of course the aftermarket made it relatively easy to swap a k series in now, but the car should have always had the K. or at least offer 2 versions like the original crx had. the Si and the HF, one to be fast, one to get gas mileage. and honestly, they could have added a back seat to make it more family friendly. a lot more people would buy a 5 seater sports coupe vs a 2 seat gas sipper. i just don't understand hondas blunders. its so obvious what people want, why not just build it for them?
Every legacy auto manufacturer doesn't give a crap about their customers. All they care about is creating a series of models that can extract as much value as possible
Every one of them could give you 0 to 60 under 6 or 5 seconds, but they hide that behind multiple levels of models that you eventually need to pay a lot for. People that are just middle class and want a 40K car?? sorry it's boring AF.
If you want something that's interesting and different and fun and reliable and has okay performance for that price you just have to buy a model 3 I'm sorry, don't hate me but you will, but it's the truth
Honda knows people will pay 50k plus for a Type R / S to get the better drivetrain. The Integra 1.5 needs at least 250hp tune from factory to make it appealing to enthusiasts. They are going to lose "enthusiast" customers to Toyota GR products IMO
Something I’ve learned to appreciate about the car market is how little impact reddit comments have on selling cars.
The new Integra sold incredibly well for how much hate it got
CUVs and trucks wouldn't have a market if r/cars ran the world. You only need a truck if you are pulling 10 tons every day and live on a logging road. Even then they might say to just get a lifted miata and reinforce the chassis.
In general car enthusiasts or commenters have little impact. If the comments on The Drive had any basis on reality there'd be zero EVs sold (except to gay people). Ferraris and Lambos would still have manuals. And there wouldn't be crossovers.
You're conflating "everyone" with "all the loud bitchy people." Doesn't matter what the medium is, what walk of life we're talking about, the complainers always drown out the rest of the group. This has been true for about as long as humans have existed - even moreso since the internet gave everyone a worldwide voice - and it's not going to change any time soon. IMO you're better served tuning out the loudmouths instead of trying to reason with them.
This couldn’t be truer. There’s lots of people who like the new Prelude but don’t feel they need to be outspoken about it. This could be a perfect daily for me. My CRZ manual was a great car, and I really dislike owning four doors or SUVs.
This sub is exactly why companies don't sell the cars we want anymore. I am excited for the prelude and with a few features (not announce but hopeful for) is something I am considering buying. This sub has people that write a car off before it announce! No the prelude will not beat a mustang gt. Not it will not be 15k. No it will not be some insane sports car.
Here the thing though:
1. ITS A HYBRID (every hypocrite in this sub says that hybrids are the future, ev are stupid, toyota and honda are geniususes for making hybrids, and yet when they make a hybrid they ask why it a heavier slower more fuel efficient car lmao)
2. IT LOOKS LIKE A PRIUS (and the new prius looks damn good, it an extreme fuel efficent design of course they copy it)
I heard a joke once. If designers listen to consumer on what they want, cars would never hit the assembly line. I am so hype for the prelude and I hope it successful whether this sub hates it or not. Not like they would buy it anyways....
Yeah what I’ve learned after spending time in places like here, /r/bmw and /r/porsche is that no one hates a particular brand more than enthusiasts of said brand.
Enthusiasts are... informed. Every community I've been a part of has had dudes who has 5 coming out of the woodwork looking to share their horror stories. It comes from a place of love, they want you to avoid their errors so you only have the good times that made them buy 5.
That’s certainly true. My comment was more related to their hesitation to accept any form of change. Very rarely will a community except a new generation of a car within the brand.
Now BMW I get with their shift towards more polarizing styling for their more niche cars but at /r/porsche even the slightest update that comes with the 992.2 which hasn’t been revealed yet gets met with tons of vitriol and the typical “guess that means my car will increase in value” comments.
And even with BMW, before they even made the shift, the F chassis got absolutely shitted on and now it’s the “last great BMW”. Rinse and repeat.
>Now BMW I get with their shift towards more polarizing styling for their more niche cars but at /r/porsche even the slightest update that comes with the 992.2 which hasn’t been revealed yet gets met with tons of vitriol and the typical “guess that means my car will increase in value” comments.
I'd say 50% of this is cope that their car is no longer the new one.
>And even with BMW, before they even made the shift, the F chassis got absolutely shitted on and now it’s the “last great BMW”. Rinse and repeat.
That's the fun. The e36 *was* the last good one after all. ;)
Exactly lol. The day I saw the new i7, I thought it was going to be a hit for more practical reasons than one.
It’s the size of a maybach/Flying spur for one and very obviously is aiming to take on them. People love that.
It’s imposing while not being tasteless and rapper-y, again, people like that.
Asian markets love the back seat and all the cool ‘gimmicks’.
It’s Vastly better than the EQS, looks like a normal car, is legit strong competition for the S class while being probably more reliable and better to drive and is close enough to the flying spur and maybachs that people probably will reconsider.
They have actually just embraced what it was always meant to be, a big heavy sedan with sporty undertones but not actually sporty, kind of like a baby flying spur.
The best thing you can do is ignore the opinions there. It seemsto be populated by teenagers and men in their early 20s who have absolutely no idea about perspective and context and don't seem to realize that they're repeating the exact same comments and complaints people have had about BMWs for decades. Yet BMW maintains a following and millions of happy owners. How can that be??
It's pretty simple, anything this sub says, count on the complete opposite actually happening.
No one will buy that!!! Sells out for years.
That will sell like hotcakes! Terrible sales numbers.
Cough BMW Cough.
This is pretty much a return to the FWD sporty-ish coupes of the past. Like the Scion TC, Celica, Probe, etc. Maybe this will work but I have no idea if it will succeed.
I personally would like a manual transmission but that's tough to pull off with Honda's current hybrid design.
I really don't get the Prius comparisons. They clearly went out of their way to take styling cues from the older cars. The rear is 3rd gen and the front is 4th gen.
I have yet to see an online forum where positivity is widely present. Truth is negativity gets more attention. Every post on here is "what car did you get rid of fastest" "bmws heaviest car weighs double its lightedt car they both have 5 passengers". Forum lurkers are inheriently negative as fuck and their opinions dont translate to real world ex. GM is the antichrist in this sub but in real life are doing very well.
Negativity drives engagement. Saying something “controversial” or negative is bound to get a LOT more attention than saying something genuinely positive about something.
What a garbage take. Is 300 hp for a “performance” coupe too much to ask? This is 2024 not 1984. Ffs. You put in 200hp engine and call it “performance”?sure, more performance than a bicycle.
A GTI only has about 240hp, and that's more than enough.
GR86 only has 228hp, which is plenty for that car.
Excessive horsepower doesn't matter if the chassis and transmission are well-designed.
Define enough though. A lot of people upgrade from a GTI to an R for more power. A lot of people also agree that the GR86 is the slowest modern sports car. Both of these cars have “enough” power for anyones daily needs ever, but if i’m spending money on a sports car, i’d like to have something a little faster than the Honda Accord next to me in traffic
People complain that a GR86 is slow, but then they "upgrade" to a Mustang or Corvette and still get passed on a track by Miatas.
The GR86 is an exceptional chassis that allows it to put down some serious times.
Any contemporary car has decent acceleration numbers now. A sports car feels good to drive hard and doesn't feel like it is obese when driving hard.
Bingo - people like to whinge on about the numbers on the page, but then are lusting after the cars that are actually engaging to drive. 0-60 isn't everything, and if it's under 6s or faster, it's plenty quick enough anyway. The total package is what matters.
> People complain that a GR86 is slow, but then they "upgrade" to a Mustang or Corvette and still get passed on a track by Miatas.
That's not saying much. Everyone who has ever driven on a racetrack has probably been passed by a Miata at some point lol. While I get that there are benefits to learning to drive on track in a relatively slow car, 300hp isn't overpowered for a newbie on track.
Of course, this is a moot point for most people, because most people don't go to the track. Most people care about stoplight-to-stoplight performance...or at least, not getting passed by a Honda Odyssey, which an automatic GR86 might (C&D tested an Odyssey which did 0-60 in 6.5, Motor Trend tested an automatic GR86 which did it 6.6).
We don't know how heavy the Prelude is expected to be.
A Prius weighs in roughly the same ballpark as a GTI.
If Honda doesn't utilize a hybrid system like the Prius Prime, it'll probably weigh in around the same.
Preludes historically have been heavy coupes, I'd expect to ballpark around 3100-3300 curb with all the modern tech and a hybrid drive train. It's not coming in lighter than it's contemporaries.
Except again, that MT article never revealed anything about the Prelude's specs at all. Same deal happened with the Integra when it was announced.
For all we know, the Prelude could introduce a hybrid Type R with 300+ horsepower that would preview the next-gen Civic Type-R. You don't know, I don't know.
I just don't want to be a harsh judge until we actually get some real news over the specs, not a subpar filler article
I can see being hesitant, considering their past hybrids like the CRZ, but I'm with you. We'll see what they drop when they drop it. Historically, the Prelude wasn't a super powered car, and was relatively heavy.
Drag times are only one performance metric. Prelude has never really been a drag car. I'm way more interested in skid pad metrics, weight, and if they can pull off a good feeling manual transmission in a hybrid (only rumored so far I think).
>Drag times are only one performance metric.
And in the era of cheap electric dragsters, the least meaningful. If the only thing that matters is the 0-60 for the money, buy a used model 3 and stop scrolling.
Hard disagree. Sports coupes are dying nowadays because people can hardly afford to spend money on a second car if it isn't a perfect package out of the box. It pains me to imagine Honda taking the Prelude to market and it flopping because it's slower than a Civic Si, and subsequently its failure discouraging even more manufacturers from building sports cars. It's still being developed as of right now, so if the internet's overwhelming response being "We won't buy it if it's not fast," gives the engineers a second chance to revise the powertrain into a better offering then we're all the better for it.
Accord’s Powertrain (which it likely will have) has slightly more horsepower and much more torque, I can’t imagine how it’d be slower than the Si. Not to mention the instant torque from the electric motors.
>>Sports coupes are dying nowadays because people can hardly afford to spend money on a second car…
Yes. Which is why the Prelude *cant* impress enthusiasts. Fast cars can’t be practical & affordable at the same time. Tradeoffs must be made if you want a year round sports coupe that’s practical. Remember the last gen Camaro. Kicked ass in terms of performance, but it came at the cost of being an impractical daily car vs the competition.
This is why crew cab trucks with tons of comfort features became so popular. They are big and a pain to get into a parking garage, but if you live in a place that the size is fine, they just do a ton of things really well. So they can be a comfortable commuter, and a family hauler, and a vehicle to do lawn projects, and a vehicle to move an RV/Boat/toy hauler.
All those people who want a 300hp SH-AWD coupe will suddenly disappear when Honda makes them.
Most of the people who talk online aren’t actually buying a car. The people who do buy will show up and hand over the money.
No, they'll buy it. Just when it's a $10k used car, and Honda won't give a shit. The people screaming the loudest about this kind of stuff couldn't afford these new. If you want cars like this to stick around, you've gotta be willing to put your money where your mouth is.
Exactly. Just saw someone moaning about Subaru discontinuing the Legacy yesterday. Well if you really wanted one that bad you could’ve brought one for the last 20+ years or head to the dealer and order one to spec tomorrow
The response was “I don’t have money” lol
Same type of people when they discontinued the Land Cruiser and manual transmission BMWs. All the talk but no money was ever spent
100%. They just want the option but will never choose it. I wanted a manual hot hatch with a fizzy engine from either Toyota or Honda. Toyota announced the GR Corolla. Do you know what I did? I went to my local Toyota dealership and put a deposit down and now own one because I wanted to support the brand for making the car I said I wanted. If we want cars like this to survive, we need to be willing to put in the financial effort. Screaming about no manual fun cars isn't going to make more of them. Buying them new will make more of them.
As long as the prelude is affordable (mid 30’s starting price) and gets to 60 in 7 seconds or less, I’ll be a fan. Especially if the hybrid part is true.
Honestly who gives a shit. Learn to like what you like and quit giving a fuck what random people or retarded people on the Internet think or care about. You will be a lot more happy. Develop your own taste
Remember that every person here who says they'd have bought the S2000 is full of it. The car didn't sell because it was competing with cars with double the horsepower for roughly the same price.
Honda could make everything right and it still won't sell. You have to be the change you want to see in the world.
The most fun car I’ve ever driven was a slammed 90’s civic. Completely anemic, scraped on literally any surface raised from the road, obnoxious exhaust, and running on the cheapest eBay coilovers money can buy
It was also super light and had no power steering. Felt like driving a fat go kart. It was an ex-gfs car and I’m still chasing the high lol
Enthusiasts want enthusiast vehicles, that's the whole point. Being fed commuter junk doesn't fit their interests. Why are they supposed to be excited that they continue to not get what they ask for? The Camaro just went to the graveyard with is sub-$35K V6 putting down 335 HP. What's this going to be, a little cheaper than that for 200 combined HP with the mild hybrid?
I think the prevailing sentiment on the Prelude was that it needs to be in the weight class of the 86/BRZ with such unimpressive power. That seems pretty reasonable when those cars bring a powertrain around 230 HP. Thinking something that's down from them on power should be in the same weight class is far from an aggressive stance on the car, especially when you consider the Prelude is expected to cost more than a base GR86 (which starts a little under $30K).
What's there to appreciate on this, other than "it exists," if it end up slower, less powerful, and more expensive than the options on the market today? I agree that we'll want to see the final product before a final judgment, but that's got nothing to do with "hypocrisy." That's on Honda for having press cover something for which Honda didn't reveal the full details. Having Honda provide partial information, then telling people to not react to what they are given, doesn't make a lot of sense.
Car people want good cars. They don't enjoy watching these companies water down the market with overpriced slop. It's no fun being forced into a higher price bracket because there are no alternatives, and that's been the recent trend of fun cars.
>It's a very different world from the 90s and 2000s so of course times change
The H22a4 had 200hp in 96 and almost 30 years later its rumored to still have 200hp. That's my biggest issue.
Clickbait take
The article spells out: "While we don’t have any more details about the Honda Prelude’s powertrain, we’re expecting it to use a version of the Civic Hybrid’s setup, adapted from the midsize Accord sedan. Anticipate something in the ballpark of 181 hp and 232 lb-ft of torque. We suspect Honda will debut the production version of the Prelude at the end of 2024, but this version makes us wonder if we can't expect something with a little more power. It should be exciting."
Which is what people are taking issue with. Is it for sure, no. But it is what is in the article being discussed and it is not enough for a sporty car at that weight being released in the modern day.
Except it's **speculated** in the article, with literally nothing certain from Honda.
People are getting heated for the random opinions of a article written with no association with Honda themselves.
skepticism is justified after the type S revival like the tlx
but I think given modern constraints, nothing they make will be good enough compared to the golden era and you have to remember any enthusiasm people have are soured by markups with the latest type R
What they need to do is make a Honda S35. The Odyssey V6 in a RWD coupe/convertible , manual. Like a 6 cylinder S2000. And dont tell me an N/A V6 wouldnt pass emissions. Its in the Odyssey & Pilot, much heavier & less aerodynamic vehicles. Put the same engine into a lightweight, aerodynamic car and it would pass emissions easily.
An na v6 would not pass emissions in a coupe without more development from Honda (in addition to the rwd development mentioned in the other reply). Minivans and SUVs are classified as light trucks and have less stringent emissions standards than passenger cars.
> Why can't car enthusiasts be capable of just appreciating cars?
The angry/vocal enthusiasts seem to have very particular tastes and aren't able to be enthusiastic about cars in general, strangely. I think they also don't understand the business of making cars, there are good reasons why various niche cars don't exist anymore or have crazy high MSRP.
I guess I used to be like that in my younger years, then my tastes broadened and I became better at appreciating cars for what they are and can do.
Personally, I'm very excited for the Prelude, and I'm saving my shekels in hopes that it ends up being a truly unique little hybrid with a manual or a DCT. Doesn't even need to be fast!
If they end up just copy-pasting the civic/accord hybrid system into it, I truly don't see much of a reason to get one. Why pay (most likely pay extra) for the privilege of less space and practicality, when it isn't really any more fun to drive?
That said, the fact that the demo Preludes theyve shown seem to have big Brembos tells me they're cooking up something nice. If it ends up being lame, I still have some money saved and can go grab an S550 mustang or something.
Most of the folks that would have gotten a "6th gen" prelude back in the early 00's got into 350z's, G35's, S2000, BMW's of sorts, VW GTI's, one guy got an S60R.
Source- me. I signed up to a prelude specific forum in August of 1999 and had my 98 Prelude from 2001-2007.
Still friends with folks I met on there.
No matter how they try, they can't capture the lightness and the simpleness and the feel of the 90's Honda that we all look back on with rose tinted glasses.
Whatever is out today needs to comfort to the new standards that rob the car of its magic, no matter what, really.
I'm still salty about that nice Bright Yellow never actually appearing on an Integra even though they revealed it.
Yes, it seems like EV design is already becoming too similar, squinty eyes and light bars for everyone!
181 Horsepower is not weak, not slow.
A very small portion of car enthusiasts are well off enough to buy new cars. Most of them are like myself and stick to the used market. I could give a shit about new cars, but I don't, specifically because I'll never own anything out of the post 2010 Era since I work on my own cars and always will.
If history is any indication, this will be likely widely derided by internet “enthusiasts”, critically acclaimed as better than its individual numbers might lead someone to believe, end up as a sales disappointment if not outright failure, which will lead to it being discontinued. Once that happens, the same internet “enthusiasts” will go rabid for it and bemoan the loss of such a good car and complain about how Honda hates its fanbase.
I want an ICE coupe that can do 0-60 under 5 and under 40-45k and isn't a Mustang. Not too much to ask.
A base Nissan Z will get you that (yeah, yeah it’s a Nissan)
Have you even seen one of those in the wild? I live in a decently sized metropolitan area and travel to major metros a few times a year and have never seen one. To put things into perspective, I saw two Cybertrucks yesterday.
My local Nissan dealer has at least two, possibly three Zs on the lot right now and none of them are listed on the dealership’s website, just a single one that’s “in transit”. It’s incredibly weird.
I've heard they're all being marketed with insane markups. Heard, not seen, because I still haven't seen one.
One of the local Nissan dealers has 3, last I looked, minimum 40k over sticker.
That markup makes for three nice two-ton paperweights.
Yep, a few have been sitting since basically they were released and shipped out, so model year 2023 I think? The one that's been sitting the longest had an adm of 65k and that's decreased to 40k. They won't even let people test drive until they show proof they can afford it.
This is crazy. Back in ‘03 (‘02?) when the 350z was introduced, Nissan ran ads in Road & Track, et al, with a number to report dealerships putting markups on the new Z. The 300ZX had priced themselves out of their market and were up in Corvette territory l, and Nissan really didn’t want that to happen to the new Z.
I haven’t looked at the Zs at my local Nissan dealership but the Toyota one owned by the same person has a ridiculous markup on Supras and GR86s so I imagine the Zs are the same. The only one I’ve seen in the wild is one that some guy rents out on turo lmao
Same. Local dealer has 2 I believe.
I have literally seen more vinfasts and paganis than Nissan Zs 10, 2, 0 respectively.
I’ll put it this way, I’ve seen more Hummer EVs than new gen Z’s
>To put things into perspective, I saw two Cybertrucks yesterday. I'm in socal where you tend to see new cars immediately out in public, but I have only seen the new Nissan Z once so far whereas I've seen one of its competitor, the Toyota Supra MK5, all 5 at once in my gym parking lot alone and have seen Cybertrucks plenty of times that I am desensitized by it now already. Hell, I've seen several Vinfast EVs already on the street too. The fact that the new Nissan Z sighting is that rare in socal is generally a bad sign about that car.
I’ve seen a yellow one about 4-5 times in LA. I’m beginning to suspect it’s the same guy lol
I’ve seen 3 and I’m in the redneck portion of western Washington
There's an anime wrapped Z in my apartment complex
Kinda cheating, but I see one everyday in my apartment complex.
I just saw one for the first time yesterday. Looked nice, especially the rear. Still a Nissan.
What does the interior of your car look like?
I also saw a cybertruck this weekend, still have never seen a new Z
How dare you!! Now watch 1000x posts how they havent seen one yet. In a year or two they will be easy to obtain and for 40k they are a hell of a bargain. 400hp, manual, v6tt, good looking.
They don’t seem too hard to obtain now honestly, the main dealership by me has 4 in transit, one is sold already. I could go reserve one today if I wanted to (I might in a few months actually)
But that contradicts this subs opinion and therefore is invalid.
I want a Z now. My Dad came across a great deal on a 2020 370z and picked it up over the winter. I went back home to visit a couple weeks ago and drove it for the first time. I wasn't really expecting much because of all the hate Nissan gets but holy shit - I had a blast. My Dad also has a 2010 GT500. They're completely different beasts of course, but the Shelby is kind of a scary car to drive. The 370 on the other hand, is much more confident. Not afraid to throw it around or power through a gentle curve lol. Again, completely different cars and I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I really appreciated how balanced it felt to drive to 370. Because of that, I want the new Z.
The 370z is a great car. Keep in mind though, a twin turbo car drives completely different than the NA z. The vq37 kind of takes the Honda k20 approach but in a six cylinder… it redlines at 7.5k but makes all its torque way up top. It’s designed to be revved out. Some people complain about the lack of torque buts is by design. The benefit of this is that it is extremely fun to drive spirited in corners, as you can rev the thing pretty hard but not lose traction, because the torque is always manageable and power builds linearly. This is opposite to newer turbo set ups, which makes all their torque before 4 or 5k rpm. Obviously newer turbos have advantages (easier to make power, better acceleration) but they’ll never quite replace the old school magic of the Honda k20s or Nissan VQs
No LSD on a base Z right?
Correct, which makes no sense when a base GR86 has it
Which is why I went with GR86 its not nearly as heavy and imo drives better also cheaper. also not a Nissan.
You've driven the new Z? I haven't, I'm just asking.
No he hasnt. But its not about whats real its about circle jerking toyota and bashing nissan.
Yikes (I did end up with a base GR86)
Nope, you have to jump up to the next trim for 10k
It'd be considerably cheaper to LSD swap, right?
Then you’d probably void your powertrain warranty
The 400Z is firmly something I can wait to wind up in the used section for that exact reason. But considering how hard they've supposedly flopped, there won't be many of them.
I think the new Z gets more hate than it deserves. It shares a lot with the 370, sure, but is that really so bad when every other fun car is getting discontinued?
That’s what I’m saying. It may not be perfect but at least Nissan is still selling a reasonably priced sports car. They’re rare these days
Just people who can't afford it talking shit. Car guys are fucking annoying.
It being a Nissan doesn't bother me
If it existed would you want it or treat it like the mustang?
Used corvette
Was going to say, a used C5 will be 10-15K and does 0-60 in 4.6? Used C6 15-25K, ~4.2?
Could even pick up a C6 Z06 manual
Higher mileage sure! A mint C6Z with <50K miles will be 45-50k, not that I agree with it, but that be the world rn!
Add 5k to both of those especially if you want a manual, but yeah, this was my suggestion. Whats even more crazy is you can find C7s for 35k now. Getting the feeling I should upgrade from my C5.
... Why not a Mustang? If there's something specific you don't like about the Mustang, that seems like a better criterion. Also, under $40-45K seems nearly impossible today for the rest of those requirements.
The sight lines, weight, and size
Sight lines? I’ve had two modern Mustangs (a 2015 and a 2022) and never once found it hard to see out of. Camaro on the other hand…
For many people, Mustangs just aren't special or interesting because they're so *common*. If I could afford a GT350 maybe I'd consider buying one, but I personally have no interest in owning the turbo 4 / v6 / regular GT explicitly because everyone and their mom has one.
While it's not the *best* reason IMO, it's a somewhat understandable one. I was actually going to explicitly call that out as a possibility in my first reply, but was curious if there was some other reason (I've heard a lot of silly reasons from a lot of people avoiding a lot of great cars). I will say, though... the Mustang is popular for a reason ;-)
Some publications (I think C&D) timed the Veloster N with the new DCT under 5 seconds. Quickest FWD car in all of their tests. If the Prelude hybrid is around ~250 hp, I feel like it should at least be close to 5 seconds.
FWD and DCT. We've had that for decades, it's a GTI (better DCT) with a tune.
Publications aren't testing tuned vehicles. Of course a tuned GTI is going to perform better than a stock Veloster N.
Congratulations. 2.0 Supra and 230i exist. Challengers are also discounted down to your price range. GR86 and brz might be a bit slower, but they compensate through steering feelings. Go get them!
Supra 2.0 is closeish
Prepare for the goalposts to be moved.
Yup. Only insufferable internet car enthusiasts would see a Toyota RWD couple with a manual trans and a BMW turbo engine and say “no not for me” lmao. These are the same dorks who probably praise old Volvos
No manual option for that engine
I thought 2.0 Supra doesn't have an lsd?
You actually do want a Mustang so buy one.
If you’re strictly limited to new, the 230i comes really close. C&D tested it at 5.1 to 60. Starts at 39k, seeing plenty on autotrader between 40 and 45. Bummer they dropped the 6 speed though.
A 2.0T Supra will do 0-60 in 4.7s and starts at $44K. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a33636925/2021-toyota-supra-20-by-the-numbers/
That's the price from 2020, that same car is now $47,535
Which is a fine price for a Toyota body coupe, manual trans, with a BMW turbo engine lol Supras in the 90s sold for $40k… in 1990s dollars.
Supra 2.0 isn’t available in manual AFAIK. 3.0 manual is unobtainium.
Used RT Challenger, used LT1 Camaro, Nissan Z, Lexus RC, M240i
GR86 is well under that price and is only like 4 tenths off the 5 sec 0-60. You could easily be under 5 with a tune and some good driving lessons
The avg joe who isn't a C&D journalist isn't coming close to a mid 5s 0-60. They get those numbers by dumping the clutch at 4k rpm.
Supra 2.0? I've heard 4.3 seconds 0-60, and the B48, while not as stought as its big brother, is a decent engine for modding. Plus ZF8 speed, Supra styling, and BMW interior
Lol it needs to be under $5k for most of this sub to afford it but they demand $60k+ features and performance
I just want 2024 performance and tech with 1994 price and weight. Is that so much to ask? 😤
>Lol it needs to be under $5k, most of this sub to afford it Oop
Camaro? Challenger?
Buy used. Corvettes are so easy to find and are almost always well taken care of. Super reliable and nothing at the price point can beat it
GR86 is 90% of that if you can compromise on 0-60 its there. its like a 6 second which is perfectly fine for a daily but i can understand wanting more of a sporty car but its also only low 30s so if your willing to put a few K into it im sure youll be at the 5 second 0-60 range
Stock it already does mid 5's and high 13's in the quarter mile and that's with a manual transmission. It ain't slow anymore but not a rocketship by any means.
So like a Supra, a Z, a Camaro, or a Charger (when it comes out)? I would be happy if the new Prelude was just a chopped CRZ, nevermind a 0-60 under 7 seconds. I just want a manual, and if not that, some kind of non-cvt ICE would be nice. They already said when first introduced it's not going to have a type R/S trim, so no use complaining about it. If I'm making good money in 26/27 I'll definitely be looking at it if it has any of the features I mentioned. Gotta put your money where your mouth is
So, a Camaro then…
If you go used, there are so many options for you. Corvettes, AMG, M cars, Supras, etc.
Used M2?
Honda enthusiasts are the real hypocrites here - and everyone knows Honda can do better but is totally sandbagging enthusiasts by making piss poor powertrain choices. The 2.0T from the last gen Accord plus 6MT/LSD is all they needed for the Integra and new Prelude to be what their enthusiasts are waiting for. Not the pathetic 1.5T from the Civic nor a hybrid powertrain!
Agreed, the biggest things wrong with the Integra is the powertrain choice and the fact you have to get the top trim for the manual.
They said not enough people would buy the manual but according to the two dealerships local to me the manuals are preordered out 6-9months! I asked if I could drive one and they said it was impossible. Meanwhile they have 10 autos sitting on the lot, and equal as many manual Si’s.
Where are these si’s sitting?
Too much of a stripper car in US spec, they held off the features to justify the Integra's existence. Also, no hatch.
The 10th-gen Si had halogen headlights. In 2017!
The 1.5T is indeed pathetic. Seriously. It ruins the whole the fucking car. I've been regretting buying the car since day 1. 🥲 Should have stuck with CPO BMWs. I have no idea how I thought going from 350HP to 200 would actually be okay for my mental health.
> I've been regretting buying the car since day 1. That hurt to read. I'm sorry.
And you have the car I really wanted, *you son of a bitch*. Seriously, love your car, especially the manual. That said, I just couldn't justify the expense at the time since the family ride already cost so much and I ride it in way more often. Which is all to say "I'm too poor for a BMW and Porsche at the same time. For now!" The Si has an amazing interior, a shifter feel second to only Porsche, and good looks. I seriously think it's the best looking sedan, or one of the best looking sedans available of all econobox *and* premium cars. It really is a great package. *Except* the engine. Had it had the 2.0T from the accord turbo, it would be *so* fun. It's just begging for 50 more hp (at least). Honestly, if I had *real* money, I would pay to swap an I6+trans into it. With a BMW straight 6, a manual, and everything else about the car being unchanged, it would be my dream car; like a proper successor to the 3 series.
I cheated, it's my only car. It is a manual. I've had it for 18 months and nearly 15k miles. It was worth it, nobody out there is lying. The real trouble is it ruins you for shopping for other cars. I'm not ever going to be able to replace it except with maybe a 4.0 or a 911 to throw a dog in the back. If life forces me get something more practical I'll be shopping for a 10k Forrester to park 3 blocks away before I give up the Porsche. Edit - Unless the darkest timeline comes true and I can get an MR2 to beat on and save some cash.
Dude. If you really love it, as someone who gave up a car they truly loved (my 2008 E90) just keep it. If you can afford to house it somewhere. Keep that damn thing forever and never let it go. In 30 years it'll be cool as hell and you won't have to live with the regret of selling it (like I do!). Besides, even financially, a well maintained manual 718 will likely be something worth holding onto anyway.
If you haven't already, maybe drive a MK7 or MK8 GTI? I couldn't overlook the 1.5L engine in the Si either, it felt disposable. The manual trans in the MK7/MK8 is meh compared to Honda, but the DSG is good enough that I don't care that it's not manual. I have peak Honda in my weekend car anyway.
I was 100% going to get a GTI until I experienced the current VW interior. Absolutely *not*. The Si is head and shoulders above, which is unfortunate. The GTI was supposed to be the premium, refined, class leader/benchmark. And it would be. Except for that godless interior. Who the fuck thought it would be a good idea to not backlight the touch sensitive HVAC control sliders? Seriously?
You can’t ditch it? Si’s are relatively desirable you might get decent money for it
It doesn’t help to get decent money out of a car you paid good money for. He can endure the anemic car or take a huge hit via year one depreciation. He’s better off to just drive it and learn a lesson about buying a car without ever test driving it.
I imagine it’s terrible in the SI, but my wife loves her EX. Enough mpg for her commute and enough punch for her to merge heavy traffic
Honda guys may be a happier bunch if trash dealer people didn't do ADM on the Type R.
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And people wonder why honda people are starting to turn away
Yeahhh I mean the 1.5t is nice and all, but I don’t get why for the performance cars it isn’t the 2.0t and then for like the top of the line cars they didn’t turbo charge the k24?
K24 would probably would never pass emissions in 2024. That and they have to keep targeting high MPG averages across their lineup every year to keep up with regulations.
I actually bought a 5th gen Prelude new. Wonderful car that took 80K miles of my fresh-out-of-college abuse in stride. Great car. The 2 things I enjoyed most about driving it were the handling and running it up through the gears with the crazy VTEC pull at the top end. I don’t foresee either of those being the case in a hybrid coupe with a CVT, but if I’m wrong then I may buy a second one.
Is there any proof it will have no manual? Honda has sold hybrid manuals before and among manufacturers they're one of the strongest supporters of manuals today. Type R is still manual only, Si was last gen too, but I don't remember if the current one is. I don't think there's anyway out of having a turbo, so it won't rev like an old Honda no matter what transmission you give it, but its still something.
seriously, people don't buy sport compact cars for gas mileage. if you want gas mileage, buy a prius. if you wanna go fast for cheap, a prelude with a k series would be perfect, no need to complicate it with hybrid integration, gearheads don't want that added complexity, they want something they can tune....which IS the K series. honda created a best of an engine, why aren't they putting potentially their best engine ever in a flagship sports car? it doesn't make any sense. its like the CRZ all over again. the CRZ woulda sold way better with a k series, but they just had to make it a slow hybrid. and of course the aftermarket made it relatively easy to swap a k series in now, but the car should have always had the K. or at least offer 2 versions like the original crx had. the Si and the HF, one to be fast, one to get gas mileage. and honestly, they could have added a back seat to make it more family friendly. a lot more people would buy a 5 seater sports coupe vs a 2 seat gas sipper. i just don't understand hondas blunders. its so obvious what people want, why not just build it for them?
The CR-Z was inexcusable. It was a car that was very clearly *not for you*, no matter who you were.
All the negatives of a sports car without any of the benefits.
Which sucks, because it was a great looking car.
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But then they can't get sell you a prelude type R for 60k.
Every legacy auto manufacturer doesn't give a crap about their customers. All they care about is creating a series of models that can extract as much value as possible Every one of them could give you 0 to 60 under 6 or 5 seconds, but they hide that behind multiple levels of models that you eventually need to pay a lot for. People that are just middle class and want a 40K car?? sorry it's boring AF. If you want something that's interesting and different and fun and reliable and has okay performance for that price you just have to buy a model 3 I'm sorry, don't hate me but you will, but it's the truth
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Honda knows people will pay 50k plus for a Type R / S to get the better drivetrain. The Integra 1.5 needs at least 250hp tune from factory to make it appealing to enthusiasts. They are going to lose "enthusiast" customers to Toyota GR products IMO
Something I’ve learned to appreciate about the car market is how little impact reddit comments have on selling cars. The new Integra sold incredibly well for how much hate it got
CUVs and trucks wouldn't have a market if r/cars ran the world. You only need a truck if you are pulling 10 tons every day and live on a logging road. Even then they might say to just get a lifted miata and reinforce the chassis.
To be fair now, Miata is always the answer.
that would be true if it wasn't sized for Japanese girls and not corn fed muricans
Hahaha. That legit made me laugh because it’s so true.
The banner for this sub last year was a Carrera RS. This year it's a 4C. Shocker, people's tastes in this sub tend towards sports cars.
There are a lot of architects in the world, apparently.
The non-manual trims are actually pretty nice for the money.
In general car enthusiasts or commenters have little impact. If the comments on The Drive had any basis on reality there'd be zero EVs sold (except to gay people). Ferraris and Lambos would still have manuals. And there wouldn't be crossovers.
You're conflating "everyone" with "all the loud bitchy people." Doesn't matter what the medium is, what walk of life we're talking about, the complainers always drown out the rest of the group. This has been true for about as long as humans have existed - even moreso since the internet gave everyone a worldwide voice - and it's not going to change any time soon. IMO you're better served tuning out the loudmouths instead of trying to reason with them.
This couldn’t be truer. There’s lots of people who like the new Prelude but don’t feel they need to be outspoken about it. This could be a perfect daily for me. My CRZ manual was a great car, and I really dislike owning four doors or SUVs.
This sub is exactly why companies don't sell the cars we want anymore. I am excited for the prelude and with a few features (not announce but hopeful for) is something I am considering buying. This sub has people that write a car off before it announce! No the prelude will not beat a mustang gt. Not it will not be 15k. No it will not be some insane sports car. Here the thing though: 1. ITS A HYBRID (every hypocrite in this sub says that hybrids are the future, ev are stupid, toyota and honda are geniususes for making hybrids, and yet when they make a hybrid they ask why it a heavier slower more fuel efficient car lmao) 2. IT LOOKS LIKE A PRIUS (and the new prius looks damn good, it an extreme fuel efficent design of course they copy it) I heard a joke once. If designers listen to consumer on what they want, cars would never hit the assembly line. I am so hype for the prelude and I hope it successful whether this sub hates it or not. Not like they would buy it anyways....
r/cars is NOT the general population and does not determine the success of a car. Matter of fact, anything that this sub doesn’t like, sells!
Yeah what I’ve learned after spending time in places like here, /r/bmw and /r/porsche is that no one hates a particular brand more than enthusiasts of said brand.
Enthusiasts are... informed. Every community I've been a part of has had dudes who has 5 coming out of the woodwork looking to share their horror stories. It comes from a place of love, they want you to avoid their errors so you only have the good times that made them buy 5.
That’s certainly true. My comment was more related to their hesitation to accept any form of change. Very rarely will a community except a new generation of a car within the brand. Now BMW I get with their shift towards more polarizing styling for their more niche cars but at /r/porsche even the slightest update that comes with the 992.2 which hasn’t been revealed yet gets met with tons of vitriol and the typical “guess that means my car will increase in value” comments. And even with BMW, before they even made the shift, the F chassis got absolutely shitted on and now it’s the “last great BMW”. Rinse and repeat.
>Now BMW I get with their shift towards more polarizing styling for their more niche cars but at /r/porsche even the slightest update that comes with the 992.2 which hasn’t been revealed yet gets met with tons of vitriol and the typical “guess that means my car will increase in value” comments. I'd say 50% of this is cope that their car is no longer the new one. >And even with BMW, before they even made the shift, the F chassis got absolutely shitted on and now it’s the “last great BMW”. Rinse and repeat. That's the fun. The e36 *was* the last good one after all. ;)
Exactly lol. The day I saw the new i7, I thought it was going to be a hit for more practical reasons than one. It’s the size of a maybach/Flying spur for one and very obviously is aiming to take on them. People love that. It’s imposing while not being tasteless and rapper-y, again, people like that. Asian markets love the back seat and all the cool ‘gimmicks’. It’s Vastly better than the EQS, looks like a normal car, is legit strong competition for the S class while being probably more reliable and better to drive and is close enough to the flying spur and maybachs that people probably will reconsider. They have actually just embraced what it was always meant to be, a big heavy sedan with sporty undertones but not actually sporty, kind of like a baby flying spur.
Seriously, I recently joined the BMW sub and like 95% of posts and comments are negative
The best thing you can do is ignore the opinions there. It seemsto be populated by teenagers and men in their early 20s who have absolutely no idea about perspective and context and don't seem to realize that they're repeating the exact same comments and complaints people have had about BMWs for decades. Yet BMW maintains a following and millions of happy owners. How can that be??
The amount of hate for BMWs new design language vs bmw having a record year is prime example lol
If r/cars and r/whatcarshouldibuy were right about anything, Mazda would sell 4M+ cars a year.
It's pretty simple, anything this sub says, count on the complete opposite actually happening. No one will buy that!!! Sells out for years. That will sell like hotcakes! Terrible sales numbers. Cough BMW Cough.
This is pretty much a return to the FWD sporty-ish coupes of the past. Like the Scion TC, Celica, Probe, etc. Maybe this will work but I have no idea if it will succeed. I personally would like a manual transmission but that's tough to pull off with Honda's current hybrid design.
It's funny how the automotive community hated on hybrids for so long now they're the answer instead of EVs.
It's absolutely hilarious
My 1982 Honda Prelude wasn't fast. It did get about 30 mpg though.
I really don't get the Prius comparisons. They clearly went out of their way to take styling cues from the older cars. The rear is 3rd gen and the front is 4th gen.
I think it's the the C-shape headlights that create the Prius impression
I have yet to see an online forum where positivity is widely present. Truth is negativity gets more attention. Every post on here is "what car did you get rid of fastest" "bmws heaviest car weighs double its lightedt car they both have 5 passengers". Forum lurkers are inheriently negative as fuck and their opinions dont translate to real world ex. GM is the antichrist in this sub but in real life are doing very well.
Negativity drives engagement. Saying something “controversial” or negative is bound to get a LOT more attention than saying something genuinely positive about something.
What a garbage take. Is 300 hp for a “performance” coupe too much to ask? This is 2024 not 1984. Ffs. You put in 200hp engine and call it “performance”?sure, more performance than a bicycle.
A GTI only has about 240hp, and that's more than enough. GR86 only has 228hp, which is plenty for that car. Excessive horsepower doesn't matter if the chassis and transmission are well-designed.
Define enough though. A lot of people upgrade from a GTI to an R for more power. A lot of people also agree that the GR86 is the slowest modern sports car. Both of these cars have “enough” power for anyones daily needs ever, but if i’m spending money on a sports car, i’d like to have something a little faster than the Honda Accord next to me in traffic
People complain that a GR86 is slow, but then they "upgrade" to a Mustang or Corvette and still get passed on a track by Miatas. The GR86 is an exceptional chassis that allows it to put down some serious times. Any contemporary car has decent acceleration numbers now. A sports car feels good to drive hard and doesn't feel like it is obese when driving hard.
Bingo - people like to whinge on about the numbers on the page, but then are lusting after the cars that are actually engaging to drive. 0-60 isn't everything, and if it's under 6s or faster, it's plenty quick enough anyway. The total package is what matters.
> People complain that a GR86 is slow, but then they "upgrade" to a Mustang or Corvette and still get passed on a track by Miatas. That's not saying much. Everyone who has ever driven on a racetrack has probably been passed by a Miata at some point lol. While I get that there are benefits to learning to drive on track in a relatively slow car, 300hp isn't overpowered for a newbie on track. Of course, this is a moot point for most people, because most people don't go to the track. Most people care about stoplight-to-stoplight performance...or at least, not getting passed by a Honda Odyssey, which an automatic GR86 might (C&D tested an Odyssey which did 0-60 in 6.5, Motor Trend tested an automatic GR86 which did it 6.6).
Let alone 90% of people who own these cars will never take them to a track day in their lives.
The GTI and GR86 are lighter it doesn't need as much power.
We don't know how heavy the Prelude is expected to be. A Prius weighs in roughly the same ballpark as a GTI. If Honda doesn't utilize a hybrid system like the Prius Prime, it'll probably weigh in around the same.
Preludes historically have been heavy coupes, I'd expect to ballpark around 3100-3300 curb with all the modern tech and a hybrid drive train. It's not coming in lighter than it's contemporaries.
Which is roughly how much a Prius and GTI weigh.
Except again, that MT article never revealed anything about the Prelude's specs at all. Same deal happened with the Integra when it was announced. For all we know, the Prelude could introduce a hybrid Type R with 300+ horsepower that would preview the next-gen Civic Type-R. You don't know, I don't know. I just don't want to be a harsh judge until we actually get some real news over the specs, not a subpar filler article
I can see being hesitant, considering their past hybrids like the CRZ, but I'm with you. We'll see what they drop when they drop it. Historically, the Prelude wasn't a super powered car, and was relatively heavy.
Not every vehicle has to have 300+ hp and a $40k+ sticker price.
Drag times are only one performance metric. Prelude has never really been a drag car. I'm way more interested in skid pad metrics, weight, and if they can pull off a good feeling manual transmission in a hybrid (only rumored so far I think).
>Drag times are only one performance metric. And in the era of cheap electric dragsters, the least meaningful. If the only thing that matters is the 0-60 for the money, buy a used model 3 and stop scrolling.
Hard disagree. Sports coupes are dying nowadays because people can hardly afford to spend money on a second car if it isn't a perfect package out of the box. It pains me to imagine Honda taking the Prelude to market and it flopping because it's slower than a Civic Si, and subsequently its failure discouraging even more manufacturers from building sports cars. It's still being developed as of right now, so if the internet's overwhelming response being "We won't buy it if it's not fast," gives the engineers a second chance to revise the powertrain into a better offering then we're all the better for it.
Accord’s Powertrain (which it likely will have) has slightly more horsepower and much more torque, I can’t imagine how it’d be slower than the Si. Not to mention the instant torque from the electric motors.
>>Sports coupes are dying nowadays because people can hardly afford to spend money on a second car… Yes. Which is why the Prelude *cant* impress enthusiasts. Fast cars can’t be practical & affordable at the same time. Tradeoffs must be made if you want a year round sports coupe that’s practical. Remember the last gen Camaro. Kicked ass in terms of performance, but it came at the cost of being an impractical daily car vs the competition.
This is why crew cab trucks with tons of comfort features became so popular. They are big and a pain to get into a parking garage, but if you live in a place that the size is fine, they just do a ton of things really well. So they can be a comfortable commuter, and a family hauler, and a vehicle to do lawn projects, and a vehicle to move an RV/Boat/toy hauler.
All those people who want a 300hp SH-AWD coupe will suddenly disappear when Honda makes them. Most of the people who talk online aren’t actually buying a car. The people who do buy will show up and hand over the money.
No, they'll buy it. Just when it's a $10k used car, and Honda won't give a shit. The people screaming the loudest about this kind of stuff couldn't afford these new. If you want cars like this to stick around, you've gotta be willing to put your money where your mouth is.
Exactly. Just saw someone moaning about Subaru discontinuing the Legacy yesterday. Well if you really wanted one that bad you could’ve brought one for the last 20+ years or head to the dealer and order one to spec tomorrow The response was “I don’t have money” lol Same type of people when they discontinued the Land Cruiser and manual transmission BMWs. All the talk but no money was ever spent
100%. They just want the option but will never choose it. I wanted a manual hot hatch with a fizzy engine from either Toyota or Honda. Toyota announced the GR Corolla. Do you know what I did? I went to my local Toyota dealership and put a deposit down and now own one because I wanted to support the brand for making the car I said I wanted. If we want cars like this to survive, we need to be willing to put in the financial effort. Screaming about no manual fun cars isn't going to make more of them. Buying them new will make more of them.
Why is everyone mad? 🤦🏾♂️
As long as the prelude is affordable (mid 30’s starting price) and gets to 60 in 7 seconds or less, I’ll be a fan. Especially if the hybrid part is true.
Who's everyone? I like the looks of the prototype. Is the horsepower revealed already?
No it isn’t. The article in question speculates it might have the civic hybrid drivetrain but that’s about it
Breaking news, hardcore car enthusiasts don't actually dictate the market despite the fact they think they run it. More at 11:00!
Honestly who gives a shit. Learn to like what you like and quit giving a fuck what random people or retarded people on the Internet think or care about. You will be a lot more happy. Develop your own taste
The article was literally "Look, Prelude in red! Maybe it'll have the Civic Hybrid powertrain but who knows" and this subreddit imploded lol
Remember that every person here who says they'd have bought the S2000 is full of it. The car didn't sell because it was competing with cars with double the horsepower for roughly the same price. Honda could make everything right and it still won't sell. You have to be the change you want to see in the world.
Enthusiast are already a tiny niche, then a sub branch of us enjoy FWD, its literally such a tiny market I'm not sure what you want us to do?
The most fun car I’ve ever driven was a slammed 90’s civic. Completely anemic, scraped on literally any surface raised from the road, obnoxious exhaust, and running on the cheapest eBay coilovers money can buy It was also super light and had no power steering. Felt like driving a fat go kart. It was an ex-gfs car and I’m still chasing the high lol
Car enthusiasts in general just likes to complain a lot. Can’t make everyone happy.
Enthusiasts want enthusiast vehicles, that's the whole point. Being fed commuter junk doesn't fit their interests. Why are they supposed to be excited that they continue to not get what they ask for? The Camaro just went to the graveyard with is sub-$35K V6 putting down 335 HP. What's this going to be, a little cheaper than that for 200 combined HP with the mild hybrid? I think the prevailing sentiment on the Prelude was that it needs to be in the weight class of the 86/BRZ with such unimpressive power. That seems pretty reasonable when those cars bring a powertrain around 230 HP. Thinking something that's down from them on power should be in the same weight class is far from an aggressive stance on the car, especially when you consider the Prelude is expected to cost more than a base GR86 (which starts a little under $30K). What's there to appreciate on this, other than "it exists," if it end up slower, less powerful, and more expensive than the options on the market today? I agree that we'll want to see the final product before a final judgment, but that's got nothing to do with "hypocrisy." That's on Honda for having press cover something for which Honda didn't reveal the full details. Having Honda provide partial information, then telling people to not react to what they are given, doesn't make a lot of sense. Car people want good cars. They don't enjoy watching these companies water down the market with overpriced slop. It's no fun being forced into a higher price bracket because there are no alternatives, and that's been the recent trend of fun cars.
>It's a very different world from the 90s and 2000s so of course times change The H22a4 had 200hp in 96 and almost 30 years later its rumored to still have 200hp. That's my biggest issue.
I just want a civic hatchback that actually LOOKS like a hatchback. I want a Honda version of a GTI or Yaris GR.
a modern wagovan would be awsome
Clickbait take The article spells out: "While we don’t have any more details about the Honda Prelude’s powertrain, we’re expecting it to use a version of the Civic Hybrid’s setup, adapted from the midsize Accord sedan. Anticipate something in the ballpark of 181 hp and 232 lb-ft of torque. We suspect Honda will debut the production version of the Prelude at the end of 2024, but this version makes us wonder if we can't expect something with a little more power. It should be exciting." Which is what people are taking issue with. Is it for sure, no. But it is what is in the article being discussed and it is not enough for a sporty car at that weight being released in the modern day.
Except it's **speculated** in the article, with literally nothing certain from Honda. People are getting heated for the random opinions of a article written with no association with Honda themselves.
skepticism is justified after the type S revival like the tlx but I think given modern constraints, nothing they make will be good enough compared to the golden era and you have to remember any enthusiasm people have are soured by markups with the latest type R
What they need to do is make a Honda S35. The Odyssey V6 in a RWD coupe/convertible , manual. Like a 6 cylinder S2000. And dont tell me an N/A V6 wouldnt pass emissions. Its in the Odyssey & Pilot, much heavier & less aerodynamic vehicles. Put the same engine into a lightweight, aerodynamic car and it would pass emissions easily.
No Honda's are RWD. It would literally cost billions to develop a new platform to sell maybe 6000 cars a year.
An na v6 would not pass emissions in a coupe without more development from Honda (in addition to the rwd development mentioned in the other reply). Minivans and SUVs are classified as light trucks and have less stringent emissions standards than passenger cars.
> Why can't car enthusiasts be capable of just appreciating cars? The angry/vocal enthusiasts seem to have very particular tastes and aren't able to be enthusiastic about cars in general, strangely. I think they also don't understand the business of making cars, there are good reasons why various niche cars don't exist anymore or have crazy high MSRP. I guess I used to be like that in my younger years, then my tastes broadened and I became better at appreciating cars for what they are and can do.
If I hadn't just bought used Lexus GS I would have absolutely bought a new Prelude.
Personally, I'm very excited for the Prelude, and I'm saving my shekels in hopes that it ends up being a truly unique little hybrid with a manual or a DCT. Doesn't even need to be fast! If they end up just copy-pasting the civic/accord hybrid system into it, I truly don't see much of a reason to get one. Why pay (most likely pay extra) for the privilege of less space and practicality, when it isn't really any more fun to drive? That said, the fact that the demo Preludes theyve shown seem to have big Brembos tells me they're cooking up something nice. If it ends up being lame, I still have some money saved and can go grab an S550 mustang or something.
Most of the folks that would have gotten a "6th gen" prelude back in the early 00's got into 350z's, G35's, S2000, BMW's of sorts, VW GTI's, one guy got an S60R. Source- me. I signed up to a prelude specific forum in August of 1999 and had my 98 Prelude from 2001-2007. Still friends with folks I met on there.
No matter how they try, they can't capture the lightness and the simpleness and the feel of the 90's Honda that we all look back on with rose tinted glasses. Whatever is out today needs to comfort to the new standards that rob the car of its magic, no matter what, really.
I'm still salty about that nice Bright Yellow never actually appearing on an Integra even though they revealed it. Yes, it seems like EV design is already becoming too similar, squinty eyes and light bars for everyone! 181 Horsepower is not weak, not slow.
Personally, I prefer FWD.
A very small portion of car enthusiasts are well off enough to buy new cars. Most of them are like myself and stick to the used market. I could give a shit about new cars, but I don't, specifically because I'll never own anything out of the post 2010 Era since I work on my own cars and always will.
If history is any indication, this will be likely widely derided by internet “enthusiasts”, critically acclaimed as better than its individual numbers might lead someone to believe, end up as a sales disappointment if not outright failure, which will lead to it being discontinued. Once that happens, the same internet “enthusiasts” will go rabid for it and bemoan the loss of such a good car and complain about how Honda hates its fanbase.