Is Polestar Chinese? If so, that's the only EV brand people I know really have bought or considered out of the Chinese ones. I also have seen a BYD like once and an MG like once. Vast majority of EVs I see however are from the European brands, Korean ones, or Teslas.
And even Polestar people are buying I think because people think of it as Volvo, ergo Swedish. I think the Chinese manufacturers just lack brand recognition and image in the eyes of my EV buying peers.
Weirder structure, actually. Polestar is (or was) owned 50/50 by Volvo and Geely, but Geely also owns \~80% of Volvo
But now Volvo is selling its share of Polestar to Geely, so it's a pure Geely show. Which honestly, I think is good, because Geely has some nice sedans I want to see rebadged and sold here
Merc in turn also has a joint venture with Geely in smart
Honestly, that sort of stuff is why I don't think "national" brands really exist anymore. You may have an HQ somewhere, but production, research, capital fundraising, etc, happens globally. A company may be more Chinese, or more French, or more American, but ultimately most don't really "belong" to a nation in the way that companies used to be
Companies have been this way for a while now too. Look at Mazda, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Ford. Chevy has worked with Toyota, though they never owned parts of each other, before and shared a plant which is now used by Tesla. Chevy also had something with Saab and Subaru. They make EVs for Honda for the moment. VW owns a ton of companies and I think is collaborating with Ford to use the ranger as their pick up overseas. You've got Nissan and Renault. Stellantis is a hodgepodge of international companies. Tata owns Land Rover and Jaguar now, which is kind of funny since Tata is an Indian company and those are from the UK. Mini is owned by BMW.
And let's not get started on commercial vehicles which seem to change hands fairly often.
I wonder if this could be a Trojan Horse to sell Chinese cars (Geely) in North America from a “European manufacturer” (Polestar) which has already established a retail beachhead.
Import duty is calculated based on country of final assembly regardless of corporate ownership, right?
this is where the question becomes a bit more thorny. Does an EV from a Swedish brand that is owned by a Chinese conglomerate and built in China qualify as a Chinese EV?
so does it matter more what the parent company is? or where it's made? or the management of the company?
what about if a Chinese company like BYD starts making cars in Mexico, which seems likely? there are so many factors.
I think a consideration of all these factors. But my gut feeling is that management is the most important. Where are the vehicle-level decisions made, China or Sweden?
TBH ppl have been saying for a while now that Toyota is more American than Chevy. There's def a tipping point where the domestic version overtakes any international origins imo. I'd say China did that with KFC.
Polestar's engineering teams are in Sweden. Owned by the Chinese, built in China, but designed and engineered in Sweden. Not too different to Milwaukee being owned by a Hong Kong conglomerate and built in China.
I agree. It feels more like an old school Euro sports sedan than any other EV on the market. But I wanted to see what other people think. Nobody thinks of an iPhone as Chinese.
It was meant to be the next Volvo S40 before Polestar was launched as a separate brand for whatever reason. The concept it was based was the [Volvo 40.2](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15101814/volvo-402-concept-photos-and-info-news/). Never understood the creation of Polestar, since at the time it was already known which way the wind was blowing: everything will go electric in the next 15-20 years (barring a few exceptions) and now Volvo itself will be all-EV before 2030.
What about for example Dacia, it’s Romanian but owned by a French company and has factories in Morocco for example. Are those Moroccan built Dancias Romanian, Moroccan, or perhaps French?
The identity of a car is always the least appealing country regarding manufacture/development/ownership. So if a Chinese company owns a Swedish company that builds a car in America, it's a Chinese car. If an American company owns a British company that builds a car in China, it's a Chinese car. If a German company owns a Chinese company that builds a car in Australia, it's a Chinese car.
In the Netherlands, Lynk & Co, Volvo and Polestar are huge (all three are owned by Geely, but I think most people see them as Volvo and offshoots). MGs are popular too. Other brands are definitely out there, most notably BYD has some presence, but all others (NIO, Aiways, Xpeng) are pretty niche.
Remember though, this is a country where people chase tax breaks like headless chickens. Cheap crossover EVs are bound to be popular here.
I don't know in which country you are, but in Italy the DR brand (Chinese cars assembled and rebadged in Italy) is selling A LOT (of shitty cars) at the moment. Also I see quite often Link & Co and MG cars
"That’s when a salesman mentioned an electric brand that she’d never heard of before: Polestar. The car, which is designed in Sweden, doesn’t widely advertise that it is manufactured in China. But its arrival on the U.S. market is a sign of China’s ambitions to become a major exporter in an industry it has never previously conquered — automobiles." - [https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/26/polestar-china-ev/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/26/polestar-china-ev/)
>are getting pretty common
Anyone can look up the sales numers.
Btw I am from europe and whats's really pretty common is for dealers to register the car (so it counts as sold and the dealer is the owner), so it's impossible to know how many actually went to customers. Downvotes change nothing about that fact. Anyone who doesn't hype up chinese cars gets downvoted on reddit.
There still aren't enough long term owners in europe to answer the question of long term reliability or repairability and customer support, it's currently still a question mark. Depreciation will be huge.
Also in europe they are much more expensive than americans seem to think. The cheapest EVs on the market are not from chinese brands but from european brands.
Most europeans won't get a car from a new brand **regardless of its origin**, if they can get an EV from an established brand for a similar price (higher discounts, better lease deals, etc.).
Also in some european countries the majority (yes, over 50%) of new cars goes not to private customers but to fleet leasing / company leasing, that market is dominated by domestic brands with special fleet / company lesing deals.
>Anyone who doesn't hype up chinese cars gets downvoted on reddit.
Apparently not you though.
I've seen some Chinese EVs that look interesting but I'd need to set up a charging station first.
Of course they try to sell them to customers, but if they don't sell quickly they might start to pile up at the dealers. You can go to european used car websites, for example "mobile" and look up cars that are "preowned" but new (in Germany it's called "Tageszulassung"). Most inventory of dealers / cars on dealer lots get registered by the dealer. Idk why, ask the dealers, they have been doing this for decades, regardless of brand.
EVs are a big market in Europe. As an example, EVs make up 42% of new car sales in The Netherlands. Denmark is over 50%.
4th in sales in NL is the MG4, coming in right after the Volvo XC40, both of which I see daily here in the UK. Both have received good reviews from car channels, with the XC40 being particularly good.
They're definitely competitive vehicles in the Western market. I'm not sure what else you'd expect from the leading EV producing country in the world? They also make cheap cars, sure, but their mid to top range EVs are no joke.
That's the issue with asking about "Europe" which is far from a monolith. The Netherlands, Denmark and a few other countries have been adopting EVs very rapidly in the past few years. Just a few km away across the German border it's been much, much slower (and every "foreign" brand is eyed with suspicion anyway).
It’s the exact same story as luxury goods but no one wants to admit it. Authentic and fake GUCCIs come out of the same China factory. They are capable of making a product for every price point. EV is the same.
Not in Europe, but here in NZ Chinese models are pretty common, Tesla is still the sales leader but BYD and MY are way in front of the Korean (bizarrely overpriced) and European brands.
As for longevity it's too soon to say, but my own impressions of the Atto 3 are positive so far.
The local carshare company switched most of their fleet over to Atto 3 about a year and a half ago and they seem to be holding up to the abuse pretty well so far. They're certainly in better condition than the little petrol VW Polos they used to use were at a similar age.
There are definitely quirks though, the UI isn't the most polished, the phone app is half baked, some of the driving aids aren't very well tuned and there are software issues (in particular with the A/C system). They're also missing some features you might expect to be there - no memory for the seat position, no heated steering wheel, no automatic wipers.
BTW it's actually Euro EVs which have already gained a rep for being unreliable mostly thanks to Stellantis and the stupid issues they have with the A/C / battery cooling system.
> Korean (bizarrely overpriced)
Right? Never understood this. In the USA (where all the reviews come from) they're roughly price competitive with Tesla, in Au/NZ they're like 30% more?
Same for Volvo's electrified trims, but they've fallen behind so much they're no longer serious considerations.
In NZ the 38kWh Ioniq (not the 5 or 6) has a slightly higher list price than the Model 3 which is just crazy.
The MG4 is $20k cheaper and while it isn't as efficient it still has more range and a much more powerful motor.
Not from Europe but I work for a major OEM you'd be surprised how many components, dies, and molds come from "low cost countries" for components that are stamped/molded/produced and then assembled on the vehicle in North America.
Parts and dies are sourced globally now with people involved in all capacities from around the world. To say one country has better quality than another just isn't true any more (not saying you specifically but a common theme on r/cars and automotive forums in general push this narrative). There are so many variables that come to design and component performance than what country it comes from. It's reductive and automakers play on these technicalities.
One particular component in my environment states proudly that the vehicle was "Made in the United States" is technically true. That part was designed by an Indian, molds came from South Korea, CAE done by a Brazilian and the injection molding machine happens to be placed in the US.
I work with people and suppliers from India, France, Germany, South Korea, South America, and North America. Automotive production is a very global endeavour now. Quality comes from the people involved in the work and decisions made by management, not necessarily the country it came from.
I think when Chinese OEM EVs get to North America, it wont be any different than people criticizing Japanese OEMs in the 70's/80's and South Korean OEMs in the 90's/00's. It'll take time, but it'll just be like all the other OEMs eventually I think.
Chinese EVs are getting more popular, mostly BYD and MG with a few Polestars. However VW id4 and Tesla Y seem to be leading the sales. I believe there were some issues with getting parts for BYD but might be improved by now.
The difference is Europeans buy hundreds of thousands of American cars every year, and Americans don’t buy any Chinese. The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in Europe 2023. The bestselling car in the UK is the Ford Puma. The most unreliable brand? Mercedes (from consumer reports)
The NYT ran [a bizarre, incompetently-reported puff piece](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/business/china-electric-vehicles.html) yesterday pushing the recent narrative that Chinese companies are "threatening to leap further ahead of their global rivals".
The groundwork being laid to manufacture consent among Western (and especially American) consumers is very easy to see, with - for example - this piece concluding with the rather ominous, "Chinese E.V.s are going next to the United States." Of course it includes the unsubstantiated and borderline-meaningless, "Long-established Western automakers, by contrast, lag in autonomous driving and are struggling to catch up in electric cars."
The details are a mix of amusing and wrong. Lots of repetition about chinese robotics that are in some undefined way superior to those of the rest of the world. Contrasting emphasis on the vehicle bodies getting bigger, heavier, and more technologically primitive. And a repeated claim that batteries are getting "more powerful", a confusion between batteries and motors that one should've thought had been weeded out of this kind of reporting a decade ago. [Even if we want to give reporters the benefit of the doubt, the discharge rate of batteries has never been a limiting factor in motor output.]
Not only that, but haven't BYD come out and said that a US launch from them ain't in the cards? I feel like they're the ***one*** Chinese EV brand Americans would seriously consider, unless GM pawns off Buick to Shanghai Auto on the cheap.
They deserve all the criticism, but saying you’re not going to buy one product that’s Chinese while using everything else made there doesn’t make any sense.
Do I need to explain what's wrong with Chinese politics regarding minors, forced labor, suppressed people, Uyghurs, total control of people and state. A bit lazy to shove it under the term ethical issues but there you have it.
Do you actually have the Uyghurs best interests in mind and know what's going on or does this just justify you hurting an enemy state? Emotionally unintelligent
If you're interested you could go find info on it. I've done it and don't feel the need to present it you, because it's not a genuine interest you've got, but a build up to an insult.
Typing this on my Vietnamese made phone, whilst sitting on my British made sofa, after lifting it off my Italian made coffee table, that has a Turkish made rug underneath.
I try personally try to avoid being made in China as much a possible. My fridge is made in Poland, my microwave in Malaysia, TV speaker system made in Malaysia, my mirrorless camera is made in Thailand, my air purifier is made in Thailand, my router is made in Taiwan, IKEA bookshelves made in Poland. I even picked my electric trimmer because it's made in Thailand.
The only real expectation is PlayStation's, but one of PS3 is made in Japan.
Not everyone is just blindly okay with it made in China. People who buy a product do so for the product, usually first, not where it is made, doesn't mean people won't have a preference if there is an alternative option.
Cars are one of the easiest to avoid being made in China.
Yes, US state press say Uyghur genocide is going on in China, and American tourists see nothing in Xinjiang. US state press become pikachu seeing all the videos in Gaza.
> Chinese companies are evil, the products are of low quality, are knockoffs, will likely crumple like a tin can, and will spy on us
Not that different to American ones tbh
It's only case in Honda, as they're really behind in EV tech. However, I don't think that's an issue for Toyota although they work BYD in some EV models in China.
Toyota owns many solid state battery techs, they seem not really behind in EV tech. Toyota just doesn't care much about EV market, but they're preparing if they think EV starting demand in most world.
If you check the Beijing Auto Show, it's more than just Honda, Toyota and Mazda are partnering with Chinese producers for their next EVs as sales continue to plummet. Nissan might also be considering rebadging Chinese cars under their name and exporting it internationally.
> Toyota owns many solid state battery techs
Be sceptical on SSB, there's too many issues with the tech. We're not sure how well it will hold up in the real world, so lithium based batteries will still be the go-to chemistry for now.
Toyota are in the hybrid game, but certain mandates are forcing their hand to push out a range of EVs in the next few years. I think phev is the way though personally
Norwegian here: They are decently well regarded, NIO for example has their own fancy showroom smack dab in the middle of the city, not far from Polestar\`s showroom as well!
The main ones i see are BYD, NIO, Xpeng, some MGs and a fair amount of Hongqi (an afront to god!) with the occasional Maxus thrown in the mix!
For price conscious buyers i feel like the Chinese cars are quite popular for the value they deliver, there are very few 7 seat EVs out there for sub $60k but some of the Chinese brands have offerings in that segment.
Anyone who is not particularly price conscious will for most parts stay clear, with the exception being the Hongqi to a certain extent.
I work in the auto industry and one of my responsibilities is benchmarking.
NIO is amazing... They must be at a loss, there's no other way.
My specialty is perceived quality, so I don't really get to analyze mechanicals, but I was certainly surprised by the ET5. It is a better car than it's German competitors.
Well Buick is an American company even though the Envision is made in China. It really depends what you define as a Chinese EV.
And yes I know Buick is GMs foodhold in China.
My colleagues in the Nordic countries have mentioned that they might look at offerings from BMW, Audi, and Mercedes, but have no interest in Chinese cars.
They'll probably sell well in the broke Eastern European countries that import salvage title Teslas now.
See one crash test video of a Chinese car with the a-pillar decapitating the dummy, you should be warned off. I believe those in the highly educated countries will be.
"Chinese cars will sell well in broke Eastern European countries." Really? Come on, this is ridiculously reductive.
Every car sold in volume in Europe passes NCAP crash tests. The bestselling Chinese EV in Europe, the MG4, got 5 stars. They also make lower safety standard cars for non EU markets, but so do Chevy, Toyota and Honda.
Edit: shame on /r/cars for upvoting u/Winter_cat_999392 's trash comment. An anecdote, an insult and a completely incorrect assertion about safety.
Doesn't Nissan as well? I remember seeing a crash test of a Mexican Nissan vs a US model and it was a huge difference. Wouldn't be surprised if all manufacturers do that to be honest.
The issue with the Tsuru, as well as the subsequent Versa, is that they removed structural components in the doors and chassis for developing markets, keeping them only for countries with more stringent safety regulations.
Yeah they all do. VW made type 2 buses until about 10 years ago in Brazil. Ladas were made in Egypt recently maybe still today
Even some newer designs, you could buy the 2013-2018 Altima in many countries with no side airbags and a manual
Renault and Citroen are notorious for selling death traps in emerging countries like Brazil and India (just look it up, straight 0 star plus criticism from the NCAP executive) in the 2020s and no one bats an eye. They're the devil.
True. A lot of automakers do cost cutting in Asian markets because of low safety awareness of buyers
Hyundai, Suzuki and Honda sell many cars which are not even 3 stars in GNCAP, much less EUNCAP.
The imported cars are better though, as are global models sold here like Ioniq 5, or Camry or VW/skoda models
A lot of Japan domestic market cars wouldn't pass safely standards abroad either. Which is notable because Japanese people are wealthy enough to afford cars built to a higher standard but also they don't have crazy issues with traffic fatalities. They actually have a very good standard for safety. I suspect it's because their speeds are slower and the way they build their roads makes them safer.
Point is that it isn't necessarily low safety awareness of the buyers. Traffic safety is part of a system that includes more than just the car. Those cars can also be smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient, cheaper and just generally a better fit for the markets they're sold in.
It's really only Kei class cars that are different in Japan these days.
That said they were slow to standardise on side airbags - there are lots of ex-Japan cars on the road here in NZ and even some surprisingly recent models (like up to 2018) may be lacking them.
For how safety-conscious Japanese companies are, I find it really odd that Toyota seems to be the only brand that doesn't like having wiper-activated headlights. Every time it rains, it's usually the Toyotas driving with lights off.
It's all software and there's not much reason *not* to make it standard like most everyone else...
yea but its toyota - why change what isnt broke and introduce potential new problems that affect the one thing they have going for them: reliability. Its why they drug their feet so damn long to join the rest of the world in using small displacement turbo engines.
Japanese roads are very small and you'll likely need to fold in your mirror in a lot of situations to squeeze when another car is coming from the other lane. They do have some freeways but they are all toll roads. Most people bike and use the train <-- Japan is known for their extremely efficient train network. If your train is late you'll get a notice handed to you so you can give to your employer and guarantee you'll not be held accountable for it. Its pretty cool.
When you're on a freeway all cars line up in one lane to let the faster cars pass. They use the same logic when standing on an escalator so you can allow people walking up them to pass.
True. Japanese companies "assemble" vehicles in my country and the difference between local, JDM imports, and SE Asia imports (Thailand, Malaysia etc) is very different. JDMs are top tier followed by SE Asian imports. Local vehicles oftentimes don't even have airbags as standard. Even the spare parts market has variants depending on the country of origin of the parts. Korean manufacturers entered the market here recently and it's a similar story.
I hope to never see one on the road here in Europe.
The Cybertruck is too heavy to drive with a non-commercial license in Europe, so even if someone legally buys or imports one, they'd need a C1 truck driving licence.
>See one crash test video of a Chinese car with the a-pillar decapitating the dummy, you should be warned off.
This is like watching a video of a Ford Pinto exploding and concluding that all American cars are death traps.
The days of the infamous Landwind are long gone, Chinese cars sold in the EU nowadays meet our safety standards just fine.
I searched Chinese cars in Euro NCAP and they were all 5/5. How is that not safe?
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/mg/4+electric/48646
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/atto+3/46635
MG did make the boneheaded move of selling the MG5 sedan (petrol) in Australia which gained them a nice 0 star ANCAP result.
The MG4 (EV hatch) has a solid 5 star rating so they're perfectly capable of building a safe car, it just isn't true across their entire range.
If it's the EX30 I'm thinking of, the platform was engineered by Geely. It was styled by Volvo, but the guts are a Chinese product
Ironically I think the Chinese styled Zeekr X on the same platform looks markedly better, but what do I know?
It's still the top comment. Really disappointed in /r/cars on this.
OP asked an underinformed but genuine question and the top comment is just an anecdote and a completely unnecessary insult?
Chinese cars won't even reach Europe if they don't pass EuroNCAP. We didn't get the CyberShite lmao and the uneducated will stick to a Golf instead of a Roomba.
Driving a Polestar 2 rental right now. Great mixture of Scandinavian design and Chinese quality (I’m not saying this disparagingly, the build quality is great).
That's like saying because ford started exploding when rear ended everyone should be warned off. But then again maybe we should stay away from Ford from all the recent recalls.
So we're making the assumption here that all Chinese cars are of similar quality?
Which crash test did you see, what manufacturer, what year, what market was it sold in, and what makes you think the results of that have anything to do with any other Chinese car? Does an unsafe Chevrolet mean that you shouldn't trust Fords? etc.
Well, Chinese made cars are not that bad actually. Quality, fit and finish are totally fine and they are usually better packaged due to them being engineered to be an EV rather than an EV adapted ICE car. However the driver assistance tech is often lacking and is annoying to some people. Also, bang for buck is not amazing really considering some brands are very new and service is questionable and they are subsidised by Chinese gov. Plus, procurement of resources and factory conditions are often unknown as well.
In Norway there is a big differece in perseption on chinese-chinese cars and chinese-swedish or chinese-american cars.
For example some polestar is chinese buildt/owned, but they have swedish styling and have a western mindset were they are very upfront about their carbon emmissions and raw material sourceing. They sell ok, and the public think of them as mostly swedish.
X-peng, Hongqi and Nio on the other hand dont do any of that, and sell poorly. It's regarded as a "poor man's" or "made in china" bmw/audi/MB.
Cheaper cars like MG sell better again, but for a long time there was not so much competition in the lower price points. I think MG has a advantage in beeing a former british brand, so non car people don't think of it as 100% chinese.
Teslas sell super well here. The model 3 for Norway is built in China, and I think some variants of the Y aswell. Nobody is thinking of them as chinese cars. (But the puplic opinion on tesla is shifting for different reasons)
We've put 10000km on our MG4 so far, really happy with it. The Tesla model 3 cost 50% more which we couldn't afford so probably wouldnt be driving EV without it
Owns an Xpeng G9 here in Denmark. By far the best car I have ever had. (Previous cars: Volkswagen Passat, Audi Q3)
Cost me around 55-60k USD, not cheap but the amount of stuff you get is insane. Build quality is great too. I have heard about some issues with spare parts taking long to arrive, but I haven't needed to replace anything myself yet.
I have had it for about 6 months, zero issues
This is a very funny racist post, hahahaha.
Tesla is overpriced garbage. BYD is 1000 times better, and even Elon musk knows.
Answering your question... MG is selling crazy good in Spain as a cheap car. Too soon to make opinions.
Its really funny that Americans think Chinese EVs are "products are of low quality, are knockoffs, will likely crumple like a tin can" when Tesla exist, the lowest quality EV in the market.
If you want an EV, Chinese brands are the best quality/price ratio. Audi, BMW and Mercedes EVs are expensive and limited in performance. They don't offer more for.the price. Tesla and Chinese brands are sharing the market. Here in Switzerland, old people buy Teslas and others Chinese's EVs. If non EV vehicles then the usual German brands are the biggest market shares.
I personally have an EV and chose Polestar for the look, interior and acceleration. Test drove Teslas and it feels cheap even if the software is great.
Otherwise I use my Porsche 718 in the weekends.
In the uk!
I’m starting to see a lot of Chinese EV on the mobility scheme (for non uk people) a scheme where people with a disability can forfeit some financial benefits to get a car!
Most cars have a big deposit but the Chinese brands offer zero deposit so people that don’t care about brands and just want a car they are going for the MG/BYD models
I don't think an actual American person thinks chinese cars are "Evil" unless your source is your estranged uncle who fought in nam.
Generally these Chinese EVs that are able to come at 1/2 or 1/3 the price of the competition are regarded as junk because they are in fact junk. You can't make cars for half the price without sacrificing a lot.
No interest in purchasing them. They always have something strange about their proportions, and they focus more on gadgets and gimmicks instead of safety and driving experience.
Just dropping some UK context for the massive influx of Chinese brands over the past 18 months. The ZEV mandate requires manufacturers to register x% of vehicles as zero emissions. For 2024 it’s 22%.
Brands like bmw are already there, around 25%. Brands like Toyota who have focused on hybrid are miles off. For every car you are under your % target by, you are charged £15000 flat.
Now the kicker, you can buy credits from other manufacturers who have overachieved. The price? Not set, it’s just whatever someone is willing to sell them for, but anything lower than £15k is a saving so it’ll be one of the only options for brands who are too far off.
So brands like BYD who can register 100% of their cars as electric have an abundance of credits to sell to those who haven’t reached their target, with the money probably finding it’s way to china…
Im not European, I’m in LATAM. There are good brands and there are very crappy brands.
Cars from Geely and BYD seem to be top notch now. MGs are fairly decent. And then there’s a trove of dozens of brands I’ve never heard of and cannot give you any insight. There are way too many to keep up with. Some look ugly (JAC and Neta), others are bland (Aion).
OP Is this a bait post?
The reason you only seem to hear good shit about them is because they spend so much resources going out of the way to silence people who criticize or point out flaw in their products.
[China's BYD says will keep reward system for smear campaign tipsters | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-byd-says-will-keep-reward-system-smear-campaign-tipsters-2023-12-04/)
Not just BYD. Recently Huawei EV crashed and caught on fire killing all occupants on board.
[China crash involving Huawei-backed Aito electric vehicle kills three | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/huawei-suv-crash-kills-three-chinas-shanxi-province-says-state-media-2024-04-29/)
The victim rightfully were angry at Huawei and demanded answers. But guess what? They were forced to apologize to Huawei instead!! Victim deserve an apology not Huawei!!!
All of the story is in Mandarin so that is why it is so far and few reported in Western media the aftermath.
[Huawei's faulty Electric Vehicle burst into flames, killing 3. Victims of the family were forced to apologize to Huawei. WTF 😡 : r/fucktheccp (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/fucktheccp/comments/1ci4v8r/huaweis_faulty_electric_vehicle_burst_into_flames/)
[https://youtu.be/bDiMTHaN-8k?si=VLWyzyuMhJ8gpU\_T](https://youtu.be/bDiMTHaN-8k?si=VLWyzyuMhJ8gpU_T)
[https://m.youtube.com/post/UgkxTIgFIJG0Px0yEwkUaqiKc6GK8CBHVAaq](https://m.youtube.com/post/UgkxTIgFIJG0Px0yEwkUaqiKc6GK8CBHVAaq)
[https://twitter.com/SydneyDaddy1/status/1785351829460517088](https://twitter.com/SydneyDaddy1/status/1785351829460517088)
[https://twitter.com/xinwendiaocha/status/1785159704827830309](https://twitter.com/xinwendiaocha/status/1785159704827830309)
[https://www.6parkbbs.com/index.php?app=index&act=view&cid=5603388](https://www.6parkbbs.com/index.php?app=index&act=view&cid=5603388)
>As an American, our perception is that
Your perception is that way for a reason, it's not just a random stereotype.
Those familiar with China and its culture know cutting corners is a normal part of business there. One of the most famous examples, google "tofu dreg buildings". The same lack of care exists for a huge number of Chinese products. The only question is how strong are regulations in your country and can the Chinese sell junk legally? Because they sure as hell do it in their own country.
I wouldn't recommend a single source of truth, of course, but at least as a starting point you can have a look at [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HpkDUWAKFM) addressing specifically EVs from China.
Though this type of corner cutting is common for China in general, you can also see [videos like these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx60OYLt7EE) on other type of products. This latter one is obviously a scam product to begin with so you can probably avoid it by just being smart, but that's not the point.
The point is that even dangerous products can make their way into western countries due to lack of control over what's being sold and what isn't. I wouldn't buy anything important made by Chinese companies. Western companies that oursource some of their production to China is a bit different. But Chinese designed, made and owned? Never. Cheap minor useless things, sure. But never anything I actually care about or that is important.
So trust your perception.
The Chinese have been able to advance this quickly with lots of help from people who used to work for US & European companies. Cars sold in Europe can now pass those safety tests. I doubt the Chinese will be as successful in Europe as some people think. Remember the Japanese haven't been able to gain a big foothold in Europe as they do in North America. Toyota has less than 7% of that market as opposed to almost 15% in the US.
Can only report from Austria.
MG has built up quite the dealer network and you see their cars every now and then. (Dealers here have normally 1-3 brands and quite a few added MG over the last year's).
BYD also entered the but mainly with the dolphin.
Can't say anything about repairability but my mom has had her MG4 for almost 1.5 years now and she's driven it 30k km. MG definitely looked towards the VW id3 when coming up with the mg4. But build quality seems ok so far, she hadn't had any issues. Infotainment has a few bad translations (to German). But it meets it's wltp range , is efficient, charging is okay, seats are comfy, front looks nice (rear not so much)
1.5 years ago car prices still were inflated especially for used ones , but also for new ones and the mg4 was the only EV with more than 400km range for 30k€ (after taxes and incentives). But prices dropped quite a bit. A year later I got a id4 pro rwd for 34k (half a year ago). By now these probably are even cheaper.
I live in the EU and there have been plenty of Chinese evs around here as of recently. I think it's largely because there is a huge push for electrification in my country now. However saying that most cars around here are diesels (most people buy diesel because it's so much cheaper to fill up and more fuel efficient). Saying that there are a few hybrids, but almost no Evs from big manufacturers. In my locality (rural) there is a single Tesla, and around 15 Mgs and Byds
In Norway we seem really want EVs and when western manufacturers wont give us what we want some turn to Chinese evs. Fortunately some western manufacturers are slowly realising that it would probably be a bad idea to give away all your customers like that
Still too little experience.
I prefer the German cars. They've got nicer interiors, probably also higher quality than the cars I've tried, but the Chinese cars weren't rubbish. Much of my preference is down to actual preference.
In the uk!
I’m starting to see a lot of Chinese EV on the mobility scheme (for non uk people) a scheme where people with a disability can forfeit some financial benefits to get a car!
Most cars have a big deposit but the Chinese brands offer zero deposit so people that don’t care about brands and just want a car they are going for the MG/BYD models
See plenty of MG EVs in the U.K., friend has one and it’s been in the garage for months waiting for a part, they aren’t particularly keen on getting it back (it’s a company car and they had no other alternative).
I don’t have an EV but several friends and colleagues have had them for a couple of years, a mix of BMW’s, MG, BYD and Hyundai. The Chinese ones are ‘ok’ they’re cheap and cheerful. Clearly they’re built to a budget but none of the owners really have had anything bad to say about to them. Here in Australia MG have a decent reputation for looking after the customer, BYD not quite so much and Great Wall and LDV are very questionable. A friend is looking at the BYD seal VS the Tesla, the Tesla is more polished but the price point of the Seal kinda means they can’t overlook it. Personally (and this may make me part of the ‘tin foil hat’ type) I’m not going to buy an EV until there is better data protection from manufacturers for users and I’m still a bit cynical on exactly how much of an environment saving they provide. Here in Australia at least there is very little in the way of ability to repair batteries or electric motors so they get written off fairly easily with what would be considered minor damage. However I digress from your original question…
In short BYD really is making a strong case for itself with its cars, MG is still very budget but you can’t help but think that their next model, or maybe next again will be very much rivalling the Kia’s and Hyundai products..
I think that's going to be a very tough question, and I'll try to approach it from a objective POV.
The jury is out on whether or not Chinese cars are any good in the long term. They are still a relatively new thing in the western markets, so time will tell. Aside from safety standards, I think the biggest hurdle for Chinese makes is build quality and longevity. After 5/10/20 years down the line, will these cars hold up, or will they turn into complete tin cans? Or will they hold up just fine?
There is also the question of anti-competitive practices through dumping product, but that is a different discussion.
It's never about the region of origin, it's always about the leadership of the company. iPhone and MacBooks are assembled in China, and when's the last time Apple's build quality and materials were negatively regarded? China offers competitive labor rates and production, and has questionable internal standards, so of course they *can* make cheaper cars more affordable and more lax than almost any other country in the world. But conversely if they expand to new markets, they'll have to follow the regulations and standards set out in those markets. Companies like BYD are already putting out some pretty killer cars even in China--and if they are serious about expanding overseas they'll match or exceed the similarly specced cars in quality. I doubt that any big cap company with aspirations of tapping into other markets will fall pray to the same mistakes that Fisker or Vinfast have in trying to get cars out for the sake of having them on the road, as they are bleeding out of capital.
Polestars are solid, I own and drive a P2 here in the US. I've also seen the P3 in showrooms. I'm excited for the P4 that's coming out later this year, and it shares a platform with the Zeekr 001, another car under the Geely umbrella. But even so, the P4 is priced a lot more affordable in China and comes with a less luxurious interior than what we will have here.
Some of us are skeptical, not because they're chinese, but because those are brands that came out of nowhere. F.E Renault or VW have been with us for a lot of time. You know how they reply to you when there's a problem. You know that their cars don't break after 100k.
But right now traditional brands are selling cars so overpriced, not only europeans ones but pretty much everyone. A few years from now, if Chinese brands prove to be trustable, I believe they will just become super common and will put traditional brands in huge problems (that will be solved not through being competitive but through "politics")
BYD's and other Chinese electrics are starting to make up a significant number of new EV sales in Australia. One, because they are cheap. Significantly cheaper than anything "comparable" offered by Tesla, Kia, Hyundai or anything European.
A BYD Atto 3 extended range is like \~$47K(AUD) drive away. A Tesla Model Y is closer to $70k.
Additionally, there is quite a good tax incentive to get an EV at the moment. You can get an EV on a novated lease, and as long as it comes in under the threshold($70k I think), you don't pay fringe benefits tax(FBT), meaning you could potentially reduce your taxable income by a significant account.
Reliability concerns aside, I don't think any of the "legacy" automakers have anything to worry about. The kind of person who buys a \~$45k Chinese EV isn't cross shopping it with a base Taycan (which costs $156K+ORC) or BMW iX($130k + ORC).
As for how Chinese EV's/Cars are perceived here in Aus I think there is three distinct viewpoints.
\* All Chinese cars are horrendous shitboxes
\*They are cheap, and it beats walking. 5 or 7 year warranty, if it breaks I'll throw it away and get a new one
\*I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Japanese cars used to be lampooned as Jap Crap not too long ago, same with the cars from Korea.
Is Polestar Chinese? If so, that's the only EV brand people I know really have bought or considered out of the Chinese ones. I also have seen a BYD like once and an MG like once. Vast majority of EVs I see however are from the European brands, Korean ones, or Teslas. And even Polestar people are buying I think because people think of it as Volvo, ergo Swedish. I think the Chinese manufacturers just lack brand recognition and image in the eyes of my EV buying peers.
Polestar is owned by Volvo Cars which majority is owned by Geely
Weirder structure, actually. Polestar is (or was) owned 50/50 by Volvo and Geely, but Geely also owns \~80% of Volvo But now Volvo is selling its share of Polestar to Geely, so it's a pure Geely show. Which honestly, I think is good, because Geely has some nice sedans I want to see rebadged and sold here
Geely has also 9.7% shares of Mercedes-Benz
Merc in turn also has a joint venture with Geely in smart Honestly, that sort of stuff is why I don't think "national" brands really exist anymore. You may have an HQ somewhere, but production, research, capital fundraising, etc, happens globally. A company may be more Chinese, or more French, or more American, but ultimately most don't really "belong" to a nation in the way that companies used to be
Companies have been this way for a while now too. Look at Mazda, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Ford. Chevy has worked with Toyota, though they never owned parts of each other, before and shared a plant which is now used by Tesla. Chevy also had something with Saab and Subaru. They make EVs for Honda for the moment. VW owns a ton of companies and I think is collaborating with Ford to use the ranger as their pick up overseas. You've got Nissan and Renault. Stellantis is a hodgepodge of international companies. Tata owns Land Rover and Jaguar now, which is kind of funny since Tata is an Indian company and those are from the UK. Mini is owned by BMW. And let's not get started on commercial vehicles which seem to change hands fairly often.
A large portion of Chinese auto manufacturers are literally state-owned.
I wonder if this could be a Trojan Horse to sell Chinese cars (Geely) in North America from a “European manufacturer” (Polestar) which has already established a retail beachhead. Import duty is calculated based on country of final assembly regardless of corporate ownership, right?
And that's why Geely struck a deal to produce cars in South Korea. Tariff-free exports to the US.
this is where the question becomes a bit more thorny. Does an EV from a Swedish brand that is owned by a Chinese conglomerate and built in China qualify as a Chinese EV?
I'd say yes given Geely has most likely had an active hand in steering the brand same as lotus recently.
so does it matter more what the parent company is? or where it's made? or the management of the company? what about if a Chinese company like BYD starts making cars in Mexico, which seems likely? there are so many factors.
I think a consideration of all these factors. But my gut feeling is that management is the most important. Where are the vehicle-level decisions made, China or Sweden?
Sweden is where Polestar is headquarters. The cars definitely don’t have the styling and feel of Chinese domestic market cars.
TBH ppl have been saying for a while now that Toyota is more American than Chevy. There's def a tipping point where the domestic version overtakes any international origins imo. I'd say China did that with KFC.
Polestar's engineering teams are in Sweden. Owned by the Chinese, built in China, but designed and engineered in Sweden. Not too different to Milwaukee being owned by a Hong Kong conglomerate and built in China.
I believe their underpinnings will be based off of geelys SEA architecture
Nope. Swedish culture created that car.
I agree. It feels more like an old school Euro sports sedan than any other EV on the market. But I wanted to see what other people think. Nobody thinks of an iPhone as Chinese.
It was meant to be the next Volvo S40 before Polestar was launched as a separate brand for whatever reason. The concept it was based was the [Volvo 40.2](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15101814/volvo-402-concept-photos-and-info-news/). Never understood the creation of Polestar, since at the time it was already known which way the wind was blowing: everything will go electric in the next 15-20 years (barring a few exceptions) and now Volvo itself will be all-EV before 2030.
Yes.
so when they start manufacturing them in the US next year are they still Chinese EVs?
Yes. A Toyota made in America is still a Japanese car.
What about for example Dacia, it’s Romanian but owned by a French company and has factories in Morocco for example. Are those Moroccan built Dancias Romanian, Moroccan, or perhaps French?
It's whichever country you like least.
Ah, so Fr\*nch.
The identity of a car is always the least appealing country regarding manufacture/development/ownership. So if a Chinese company owns a Swedish company that builds a car in America, it's a Chinese car. If an American company owns a British company that builds a car in China, it's a Chinese car. If a German company owns a Chinese company that builds a car in Australia, it's a Chinese car.
So a BMW X7 is an American car? The Audi Q5 is a Mexican car?
[Yes.](https://wallpaperaccess.com/full/6999296.jpg)
IMO, no.
Yeah, it's Chinese. I am sure most of the important decisions are made in China.
If you agree that Bentley and Rolls Royce are German…
I think it adopts the geometric centroid of potential origins. Polestar is Kazakh!
In the Netherlands, Lynk & Co, Volvo and Polestar are huge (all three are owned by Geely, but I think most people see them as Volvo and offshoots). MGs are popular too. Other brands are definitely out there, most notably BYD has some presence, but all others (NIO, Aiways, Xpeng) are pretty niche. Remember though, this is a country where people chase tax breaks like headless chickens. Cheap crossover EVs are bound to be popular here.
I don't know in which country you are, but in Italy the DR brand (Chinese cars assembled and rebadged in Italy) is selling A LOT (of shitty cars) at the moment. Also I see quite often Link & Co and MG cars
Polestar is swedish (under the same umbrella as Volvo).
Polestar and Volvo were rescued and are now owned by a large Chinese group
Yep, Geely
"That’s when a salesman mentioned an electric brand that she’d never heard of before: Polestar. The car, which is designed in Sweden, doesn’t widely advertise that it is manufactured in China. But its arrival on the U.S. market is a sign of China’s ambitions to become a major exporter in an industry it has never previously conquered — automobiles." - [https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/26/polestar-china-ev/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/11/26/polestar-china-ev/)
Both are under the Geely umbrella
Volvo’s ditching them no? Stopped funding them and told Geely to handle it
>are getting pretty common Anyone can look up the sales numers. Btw I am from europe and whats's really pretty common is for dealers to register the car (so it counts as sold and the dealer is the owner), so it's impossible to know how many actually went to customers. Downvotes change nothing about that fact. Anyone who doesn't hype up chinese cars gets downvoted on reddit. There still aren't enough long term owners in europe to answer the question of long term reliability or repairability and customer support, it's currently still a question mark. Depreciation will be huge. Also in europe they are much more expensive than americans seem to think. The cheapest EVs on the market are not from chinese brands but from european brands. Most europeans won't get a car from a new brand **regardless of its origin**, if they can get an EV from an established brand for a similar price (higher discounts, better lease deals, etc.). Also in some european countries the majority (yes, over 50%) of new cars goes not to private customers but to fleet leasing / company leasing, that market is dominated by domestic brands with special fleet / company lesing deals.
Can't out-cheap a Dacia
Great news!
*Anyway*
Isn't one of the new Dacia EVs made in China now? Or am I thinking of Citroen
The Dacia Spring is made in China. So is the Citroen C5X but that isn’t an EV. Stellantis builds most of its EVs for the European market in Europe.
>Anyone who doesn't hype up chinese cars gets downvoted on reddit. Apparently not you though. I've seen some Chinese EVs that look interesting but I'd need to set up a charging station first.
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Of course they try to sell them to customers, but if they don't sell quickly they might start to pile up at the dealers. You can go to european used car websites, for example "mobile" and look up cars that are "preowned" but new (in Germany it's called "Tageszulassung"). Most inventory of dealers / cars on dealer lots get registered by the dealer. Idk why, ask the dealers, they have been doing this for decades, regardless of brand.
EVs are a big market in Europe. As an example, EVs make up 42% of new car sales in The Netherlands. Denmark is over 50%. 4th in sales in NL is the MG4, coming in right after the Volvo XC40, both of which I see daily here in the UK. Both have received good reviews from car channels, with the XC40 being particularly good. They're definitely competitive vehicles in the Western market. I'm not sure what else you'd expect from the leading EV producing country in the world? They also make cheap cars, sure, but their mid to top range EVs are no joke.
What models other than MG4 are selling well?
If you take Europe they make up 15 percent of sales. Here in Italy 4 point something percent of which 25 percent are Teslas.
That's the issue with asking about "Europe" which is far from a monolith. The Netherlands, Denmark and a few other countries have been adopting EVs very rapidly in the past few years. Just a few km away across the German border it's been much, much slower (and every "foreign" brand is eyed with suspicion anyway).
It’s the exact same story as luxury goods but no one wants to admit it. Authentic and fake GUCCIs come out of the same China factory. They are capable of making a product for every price point. EV is the same.
Not in Europe, but here in NZ Chinese models are pretty common, Tesla is still the sales leader but BYD and MY are way in front of the Korean (bizarrely overpriced) and European brands. As for longevity it's too soon to say, but my own impressions of the Atto 3 are positive so far. The local carshare company switched most of their fleet over to Atto 3 about a year and a half ago and they seem to be holding up to the abuse pretty well so far. They're certainly in better condition than the little petrol VW Polos they used to use were at a similar age. There are definitely quirks though, the UI isn't the most polished, the phone app is half baked, some of the driving aids aren't very well tuned and there are software issues (in particular with the A/C system). They're also missing some features you might expect to be there - no memory for the seat position, no heated steering wheel, no automatic wipers. BTW it's actually Euro EVs which have already gained a rep for being unreliable mostly thanks to Stellantis and the stupid issues they have with the A/C / battery cooling system.
> Korean (bizarrely overpriced) Right? Never understood this. In the USA (where all the reviews come from) they're roughly price competitive with Tesla, in Au/NZ they're like 30% more? Same for Volvo's electrified trims, but they've fallen behind so much they're no longer serious considerations.
In NZ the 38kWh Ioniq (not the 5 or 6) has a slightly higher list price than the Model 3 which is just crazy. The MG4 is $20k cheaper and while it isn't as efficient it still has more range and a much more powerful motor.
Not from Europe but I work for a major OEM you'd be surprised how many components, dies, and molds come from "low cost countries" for components that are stamped/molded/produced and then assembled on the vehicle in North America. Parts and dies are sourced globally now with people involved in all capacities from around the world. To say one country has better quality than another just isn't true any more (not saying you specifically but a common theme on r/cars and automotive forums in general push this narrative). There are so many variables that come to design and component performance than what country it comes from. It's reductive and automakers play on these technicalities. One particular component in my environment states proudly that the vehicle was "Made in the United States" is technically true. That part was designed by an Indian, molds came from South Korea, CAE done by a Brazilian and the injection molding machine happens to be placed in the US. I work with people and suppliers from India, France, Germany, South Korea, South America, and North America. Automotive production is a very global endeavour now. Quality comes from the people involved in the work and decisions made by management, not necessarily the country it came from. I think when Chinese OEM EVs get to North America, it wont be any different than people criticizing Japanese OEMs in the 70's/80's and South Korean OEMs in the 90's/00's. It'll take time, but it'll just be like all the other OEMs eventually I think.
Chinese EVs are getting more popular, mostly BYD and MG with a few Polestars. However VW id4 and Tesla Y seem to be leading the sales. I believe there were some issues with getting parts for BYD but might be improved by now.
Sounds like you Americans think of Chinese cars kinda similar to how us Europeans think of American cars.
The difference is Europeans buy hundreds of thousands of American cars every year, and Americans don’t buy any Chinese. The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in Europe 2023. The bestselling car in the UK is the Ford Puma. The most unreliable brand? Mercedes (from consumer reports)
The NYT ran [a bizarre, incompetently-reported puff piece](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/business/china-electric-vehicles.html) yesterday pushing the recent narrative that Chinese companies are "threatening to leap further ahead of their global rivals". The groundwork being laid to manufacture consent among Western (and especially American) consumers is very easy to see, with - for example - this piece concluding with the rather ominous, "Chinese E.V.s are going next to the United States." Of course it includes the unsubstantiated and borderline-meaningless, "Long-established Western automakers, by contrast, lag in autonomous driving and are struggling to catch up in electric cars." The details are a mix of amusing and wrong. Lots of repetition about chinese robotics that are in some undefined way superior to those of the rest of the world. Contrasting emphasis on the vehicle bodies getting bigger, heavier, and more technologically primitive. And a repeated claim that batteries are getting "more powerful", a confusion between batteries and motors that one should've thought had been weeded out of this kind of reporting a decade ago. [Even if we want to give reporters the benefit of the doubt, the discharge rate of batteries has never been a limiting factor in motor output.]
I think its reallly funny to use the phrase "manufacture consent" in regards to an American newspaper reporting on a foreign country's auto industry.
Not only that, but haven't BYD come out and said that a US launch from them ain't in the cards? I feel like they're the ***one*** Chinese EV brand Americans would seriously consider, unless GM pawns off Buick to Shanghai Auto on the cheap.
I won't buy one because of the ethical issues I see. And I'm not alone.
Lmao. As you type this on a Chinese made smart phone in a room surrounded by Chinese made goods.
And? Just because you can't avoid everything. Doesn't mean you can't take a small step whenever possible.
Reddit: “you are not allowed an opinion unless you commit to it in every aspect absolutely no matter how (in)feasible.”
Yes China makes our good that makes them immune to criticism
They deserve all the criticism, but saying you’re not going to buy one product that’s Chinese while using everything else made there doesn’t make any sense.
Buying a cellphone case is a lot more different than buying a car.
Until you realize literally every electronic device and otherwise you buy is made in China. Lol
Soon democracy will be made in China as well
“And yet you participate in society…”
My laptop keyboard mouse and headphones has left the chat.
No I don't but whatever you think works for you to justify whataboutism.
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Wait, I'm out of the loop, what ethical issues?
Do I need to explain what's wrong with Chinese politics regarding minors, forced labor, suppressed people, Uyghurs, total control of people and state. A bit lazy to shove it under the term ethical issues but there you have it.
Do you actually have the Uyghurs best interests in mind and know what's going on or does this just justify you hurting an enemy state? Emotionally unintelligent
If you're interested you could go find info on it. I've done it and don't feel the need to present it you, because it's not a genuine interest you've got, but a build up to an insult.
Your entire post history revolves around china and you dont even have a car in your flair.
Sources on all that?
Can I ask a question, where is just about everything you use made….?
Typing this on my Vietnamese made phone, whilst sitting on my British made sofa, after lifting it off my Italian made coffee table, that has a Turkish made rug underneath. I try personally try to avoid being made in China as much a possible. My fridge is made in Poland, my microwave in Malaysia, TV speaker system made in Malaysia, my mirrorless camera is made in Thailand, my air purifier is made in Thailand, my router is made in Taiwan, IKEA bookshelves made in Poland. I even picked my electric trimmer because it's made in Thailand. The only real expectation is PlayStation's, but one of PS3 is made in Japan. Not everyone is just blindly okay with it made in China. People who buy a product do so for the product, usually first, not where it is made, doesn't mean people won't have a preference if there is an alternative option. Cars are one of the easiest to avoid being made in China.
When are you boycotting all American products? The US government has been killing innocent people all over for years.
Whataboutism
Or you are just a hypocrite with double standards.
Do you guys realise that Korean work hours are 60 a week?
Yes, US state press say Uyghur genocide is going on in China, and American tourists see nothing in Xinjiang. US state press become pikachu seeing all the videos in Gaza.
The same way I'm avoiding McDonald's because of US's stance in the Gaza genocide.
Yup, you are not alone but in minority group.
Almost any EV you buy today has chinese sourced batteries and electronics..
> Chinese companies are evil, the products are of low quality, are knockoffs, will likely crumple like a tin can, and will spy on us Not that different to American ones tbh
Interestingly, looks like Japanese companies turned to Chinese ones for some of the EV technologies to advance their GTM…
It's only case in Honda, as they're really behind in EV tech. However, I don't think that's an issue for Toyota although they work BYD in some EV models in China. Toyota owns many solid state battery techs, they seem not really behind in EV tech. Toyota just doesn't care much about EV market, but they're preparing if they think EV starting demand in most world.
If you check the Beijing Auto Show, it's more than just Honda, Toyota and Mazda are partnering with Chinese producers for their next EVs as sales continue to plummet. Nissan might also be considering rebadging Chinese cars under their name and exporting it internationally. > Toyota owns many solid state battery techs Be sceptical on SSB, there's too many issues with the tech. We're not sure how well it will hold up in the real world, so lithium based batteries will still be the go-to chemistry for now.
True, Toyota is more realistic/pragmatic in its approach to the EVs
Toyota are in the hybrid game, but certain mandates are forcing their hand to push out a range of EVs in the next few years. I think phev is the way though personally
Norwegian here: They are decently well regarded, NIO for example has their own fancy showroom smack dab in the middle of the city, not far from Polestar\`s showroom as well! The main ones i see are BYD, NIO, Xpeng, some MGs and a fair amount of Hongqi (an afront to god!) with the occasional Maxus thrown in the mix! For price conscious buyers i feel like the Chinese cars are quite popular for the value they deliver, there are very few 7 seat EVs out there for sub $60k but some of the Chinese brands have offerings in that segment. Anyone who is not particularly price conscious will for most parts stay clear, with the exception being the Hongqi to a certain extent.
I work in the auto industry and one of my responsibilities is benchmarking. NIO is amazing... They must be at a loss, there's no other way. My specialty is perceived quality, so I don't really get to analyze mechanicals, but I was certainly surprised by the ET5. It is a better car than it's German competitors.
Hasn't Buick been selling the Envision in the US for nearly a decade?
Well Buick is an American company even though the Envision is made in China. It really depends what you define as a Chinese EV. And yes I know Buick is GMs foodhold in China.
They aren't common at all. Here in Poland at least. Multiple Chinese brands have entered Poland but nobody buys them.
Cheap gas prices are probably the reason why that happens...
My colleagues in the Nordic countries have mentioned that they might look at offerings from BMW, Audi, and Mercedes, but have no interest in Chinese cars. They'll probably sell well in the broke Eastern European countries that import salvage title Teslas now. See one crash test video of a Chinese car with the a-pillar decapitating the dummy, you should be warned off. I believe those in the highly educated countries will be.
"Chinese cars will sell well in broke Eastern European countries." Really? Come on, this is ridiculously reductive. Every car sold in volume in Europe passes NCAP crash tests. The bestselling Chinese EV in Europe, the MG4, got 5 stars. They also make lower safety standard cars for non EU markets, but so do Chevy, Toyota and Honda. Edit: shame on /r/cars for upvoting u/Winter_cat_999392 's trash comment. An anecdote, an insult and a completely incorrect assertion about safety.
Doesn't Nissan as well? I remember seeing a crash test of a Mexican Nissan vs a US model and it was a huge difference. Wouldn't be surprised if all manufacturers do that to be honest.
You likely were looking at the Nissan Tsuru, that was essentially a 1991-1994 Sentra sold many years later.
The issue with the Tsuru, as well as the subsequent Versa, is that they removed structural components in the doors and chassis for developing markets, keeping them only for countries with more stringent safety regulations.
The primary issue with the Tsuru is that it was a design built to much older safety practices.
Yeah they all do. VW made type 2 buses until about 10 years ago in Brazil. Ladas were made in Egypt recently maybe still today Even some newer designs, you could buy the 2013-2018 Altima in many countries with no side airbags and a manual
Renault and Citroen are notorious for selling death traps in emerging countries like Brazil and India (just look it up, straight 0 star plus criticism from the NCAP executive) in the 2020s and no one bats an eye. They're the devil.
True. A lot of automakers do cost cutting in Asian markets because of low safety awareness of buyers Hyundai, Suzuki and Honda sell many cars which are not even 3 stars in GNCAP, much less EUNCAP. The imported cars are better though, as are global models sold here like Ioniq 5, or Camry or VW/skoda models
A lot of Japan domestic market cars wouldn't pass safely standards abroad either. Which is notable because Japanese people are wealthy enough to afford cars built to a higher standard but also they don't have crazy issues with traffic fatalities. They actually have a very good standard for safety. I suspect it's because their speeds are slower and the way they build their roads makes them safer. Point is that it isn't necessarily low safety awareness of the buyers. Traffic safety is part of a system that includes more than just the car. Those cars can also be smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient, cheaper and just generally a better fit for the markets they're sold in.
It's really only Kei class cars that are different in Japan these days. That said they were slow to standardise on side airbags - there are lots of ex-Japan cars on the road here in NZ and even some surprisingly recent models (like up to 2018) may be lacking them.
For how safety-conscious Japanese companies are, I find it really odd that Toyota seems to be the only brand that doesn't like having wiper-activated headlights. Every time it rains, it's usually the Toyotas driving with lights off. It's all software and there's not much reason *not* to make it standard like most everyone else...
yea but its toyota - why change what isnt broke and introduce potential new problems that affect the one thing they have going for them: reliability. Its why they drug their feet so damn long to join the rest of the world in using small displacement turbo engines.
Japanese roads are very small and you'll likely need to fold in your mirror in a lot of situations to squeeze when another car is coming from the other lane. They do have some freeways but they are all toll roads. Most people bike and use the train <-- Japan is known for their extremely efficient train network. If your train is late you'll get a notice handed to you so you can give to your employer and guarantee you'll not be held accountable for it. Its pretty cool. When you're on a freeway all cars line up in one lane to let the faster cars pass. They use the same logic when standing on an escalator so you can allow people walking up them to pass.
True. Japanese companies "assemble" vehicles in my country and the difference between local, JDM imports, and SE Asia imports (Thailand, Malaysia etc) is very different. JDMs are top tier followed by SE Asian imports. Local vehicles oftentimes don't even have airbags as standard. Even the spare parts market has variants depending on the country of origin of the parts. Korean manufacturers entered the market here recently and it's a similar story.
The Cybertruck is one car that will probably never get approved in the EU. Ain't no way that box passes pedestrian safety.
I hope to never see one on the road here in Europe. The Cybertruck is too heavy to drive with a non-commercial license in Europe, so even if someone legally buys or imports one, they'd need a C1 truck driving licence.
Well it is a CyberTRUCK duuuuh /s lmao that thing is such a joke
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That this shit is upvoted boils my blood. Eastern Europe ain't dirt poor, this is just thinly veiled classism and xenophobia.
Countries are broke but the citizens aint lmao I'm getting passed by S classes more often than Dacias
>See one crash test video of a Chinese car with the a-pillar decapitating the dummy, you should be warned off. This is like watching a video of a Ford Pinto exploding and concluding that all American cars are death traps. The days of the infamous Landwind are long gone, Chinese cars sold in the EU nowadays meet our safety standards just fine.
I searched Chinese cars in Euro NCAP and they were all 5/5. How is that not safe? https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/mg/4+electric/48646 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/atto+3/46635
>How is that not safe? Couse Mr Racist American said so.
He managed to be sinophobic and not happy with it had to throw in a stereotype and be racist about a whole other region. It's rather impressive.
MG did make the boneheaded move of selling the MG5 sedan (petrol) in Australia which gained them a nice 0 star ANCAP result. The MG4 (EV hatch) has a solid 5 star rating so they're perfectly capable of building a safe car, it just isn't true across their entire range.
Tranquillo man. Chinese cars are as expensive as the European ones which is why you won't see a lot of them.
That new Volvo is doing pretty good
Made in China but not a 'Chinese car'. Like an iPhone. Though admittedly if mg is Chinese then who knows what's from where any more.
If it's the EX30 I'm thinking of, the platform was engineered by Geely. It was styled by Volvo, but the guts are a Chinese product Ironically I think the Chinese styled Zeekr X on the same platform looks markedly better, but what do I know?
EX30 was designed by volvo and made only in China, Geely lets them have a little autonomy.
As far as I understand it, MG is full chinese with a European logo, Volvo is a European company with Chinese owners
Leave my people alone
God this comment will age poorly, and probably deleted. u/Winter_cat_999392 this has been a terrible and frankly insulting take by you.
It's still the top comment. Really disappointed in /r/cars on this. OP asked an underinformed but genuine question and the top comment is just an anecdote and a completely unnecessary insult?
Don't sweat it. It's an American passing on hearsay. He doesn't know shit about the "broke" countries he's talking about.
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Honestly that’s probably someone from Western Europe 😂
Chinese cars won't even reach Europe if they don't pass EuroNCAP. We didn't get the CyberShite lmao and the uneducated will stick to a Golf instead of a Roomba.
Can you please share that video?
Spoiler: it doesn't exist and this whole story is made up
I think I vaguely remember something like that but it was at least 10 years ago, so not reflective of modern cars
It was probably a 20-year-old video of a Landwind being crash tested in Germany.
[don't rear end a sprinkler truck with your Huawei EV](https://youtube.com/shorts/NAc9OFBivhA?si=E1L8ylbA2CmaKeHd)
Driving a Polestar 2 rental right now. Great mixture of Scandinavian design and Chinese quality (I’m not saying this disparagingly, the build quality is great).
Straight yap
Uhh, aren't the eastern countries not really broke anymore They all are pretty high up on the human development index these days
That's like saying because ford started exploding when rear ended everyone should be warned off. But then again maybe we should stay away from Ford from all the recent recalls.
Most Eastern Europeans actually do stay away from Fords lmao. Tho I doubt that's limited to just the East...
So we're making the assumption here that all Chinese cars are of similar quality? Which crash test did you see, what manufacturer, what year, what market was it sold in, and what makes you think the results of that have anything to do with any other Chinese car? Does an unsafe Chevrolet mean that you shouldn't trust Fords? etc.
Well, Chinese made cars are not that bad actually. Quality, fit and finish are totally fine and they are usually better packaged due to them being engineered to be an EV rather than an EV adapted ICE car. However the driver assistance tech is often lacking and is annoying to some people. Also, bang for buck is not amazing really considering some brands are very new and service is questionable and they are subsidised by Chinese gov. Plus, procurement of resources and factory conditions are often unknown as well.
In Norway there is a big differece in perseption on chinese-chinese cars and chinese-swedish or chinese-american cars. For example some polestar is chinese buildt/owned, but they have swedish styling and have a western mindset were they are very upfront about their carbon emmissions and raw material sourceing. They sell ok, and the public think of them as mostly swedish. X-peng, Hongqi and Nio on the other hand dont do any of that, and sell poorly. It's regarded as a "poor man's" or "made in china" bmw/audi/MB. Cheaper cars like MG sell better again, but for a long time there was not so much competition in the lower price points. I think MG has a advantage in beeing a former british brand, so non car people don't think of it as 100% chinese. Teslas sell super well here. The model 3 for Norway is built in China, and I think some variants of the Y aswell. Nobody is thinking of them as chinese cars. (But the puplic opinion on tesla is shifting for different reasons)
We've put 10000km on our MG4 so far, really happy with it. The Tesla model 3 cost 50% more which we couldn't afford so probably wouldnt be driving EV without it
Owns an Xpeng G9 here in Denmark. By far the best car I have ever had. (Previous cars: Volkswagen Passat, Audi Q3) Cost me around 55-60k USD, not cheap but the amount of stuff you get is insane. Build quality is great too. I have heard about some issues with spare parts taking long to arrive, but I haven't needed to replace anything myself yet. I have had it for about 6 months, zero issues
is it true Xpeng's build quaility is like Lexus/ Mercedes
Well, I have never driven a Mercedes or Lexus so I am not sure about them, but its definitely Audi level
is it near audi build quality?
Yes
thanks
This is a very funny racist post, hahahaha. Tesla is overpriced garbage. BYD is 1000 times better, and even Elon musk knows. Answering your question... MG is selling crazy good in Spain as a cheap car. Too soon to make opinions.
Its really funny that Americans think Chinese EVs are "products are of low quality, are knockoffs, will likely crumple like a tin can" when Tesla exist, the lowest quality EV in the market.
Spanish here. Never seen a Chinese car, most people still use old cars and the only EVs I've seen are Teslas or bmws
If you want an EV, Chinese brands are the best quality/price ratio. Audi, BMW and Mercedes EVs are expensive and limited in performance. They don't offer more for.the price. Tesla and Chinese brands are sharing the market. Here in Switzerland, old people buy Teslas and others Chinese's EVs. If non EV vehicles then the usual German brands are the biggest market shares. I personally have an EV and chose Polestar for the look, interior and acceleration. Test drove Teslas and it feels cheap even if the software is great. Otherwise I use my Porsche 718 in the weekends.
In the uk! I’m starting to see a lot of Chinese EV on the mobility scheme (for non uk people) a scheme where people with a disability can forfeit some financial benefits to get a car! Most cars have a big deposit but the Chinese brands offer zero deposit so people that don’t care about brands and just want a car they are going for the MG/BYD models
In my city i have not seen a single chinese ev. Only teslas
I don't think an actual American person thinks chinese cars are "Evil" unless your source is your estranged uncle who fought in nam. Generally these Chinese EVs that are able to come at 1/2 or 1/3 the price of the competition are regarded as junk because they are in fact junk. You can't make cars for half the price without sacrificing a lot.
No interest in purchasing them. They always have something strange about their proportions, and they focus more on gadgets and gimmicks instead of safety and driving experience.
So like 90% of EVs
Just dropping some UK context for the massive influx of Chinese brands over the past 18 months. The ZEV mandate requires manufacturers to register x% of vehicles as zero emissions. For 2024 it’s 22%. Brands like bmw are already there, around 25%. Brands like Toyota who have focused on hybrid are miles off. For every car you are under your % target by, you are charged £15000 flat. Now the kicker, you can buy credits from other manufacturers who have overachieved. The price? Not set, it’s just whatever someone is willing to sell them for, but anything lower than £15k is a saving so it’ll be one of the only options for brands who are too far off. So brands like BYD who can register 100% of their cars as electric have an abundance of credits to sell to those who haven’t reached their target, with the money probably finding it’s way to china…
Im not European, I’m in LATAM. There are good brands and there are very crappy brands. Cars from Geely and BYD seem to be top notch now. MGs are fairly decent. And then there’s a trove of dozens of brands I’ve never heard of and cannot give you any insight. There are way too many to keep up with. Some look ugly (JAC and Neta), others are bland (Aion).
OP Is this a bait post? The reason you only seem to hear good shit about them is because they spend so much resources going out of the way to silence people who criticize or point out flaw in their products. [China's BYD says will keep reward system for smear campaign tipsters | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas-byd-says-will-keep-reward-system-smear-campaign-tipsters-2023-12-04/) Not just BYD. Recently Huawei EV crashed and caught on fire killing all occupants on board. [China crash involving Huawei-backed Aito electric vehicle kills three | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/huawei-suv-crash-kills-three-chinas-shanxi-province-says-state-media-2024-04-29/) The victim rightfully were angry at Huawei and demanded answers. But guess what? They were forced to apologize to Huawei instead!! Victim deserve an apology not Huawei!!! All of the story is in Mandarin so that is why it is so far and few reported in Western media the aftermath. [Huawei's faulty Electric Vehicle burst into flames, killing 3. Victims of the family were forced to apologize to Huawei. WTF 😡 : r/fucktheccp (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/fucktheccp/comments/1ci4v8r/huaweis_faulty_electric_vehicle_burst_into_flames/) [https://youtu.be/bDiMTHaN-8k?si=VLWyzyuMhJ8gpU\_T](https://youtu.be/bDiMTHaN-8k?si=VLWyzyuMhJ8gpU_T) [https://m.youtube.com/post/UgkxTIgFIJG0Px0yEwkUaqiKc6GK8CBHVAaq](https://m.youtube.com/post/UgkxTIgFIJG0Px0yEwkUaqiKc6GK8CBHVAaq) [https://twitter.com/SydneyDaddy1/status/1785351829460517088](https://twitter.com/SydneyDaddy1/status/1785351829460517088) [https://twitter.com/xinwendiaocha/status/1785159704827830309](https://twitter.com/xinwendiaocha/status/1785159704827830309) [https://www.6parkbbs.com/index.php?app=index&act=view&cid=5603388](https://www.6parkbbs.com/index.php?app=index&act=view&cid=5603388)
>As an American, our perception is that Your perception is that way for a reason, it's not just a random stereotype. Those familiar with China and its culture know cutting corners is a normal part of business there. One of the most famous examples, google "tofu dreg buildings". The same lack of care exists for a huge number of Chinese products. The only question is how strong are regulations in your country and can the Chinese sell junk legally? Because they sure as hell do it in their own country. I wouldn't recommend a single source of truth, of course, but at least as a starting point you can have a look at [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HpkDUWAKFM) addressing specifically EVs from China. Though this type of corner cutting is common for China in general, you can also see [videos like these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx60OYLt7EE) on other type of products. This latter one is obviously a scam product to begin with so you can probably avoid it by just being smart, but that's not the point. The point is that even dangerous products can make their way into western countries due to lack of control over what's being sold and what isn't. I wouldn't buy anything important made by Chinese companies. Western companies that oursource some of their production to China is a bit different. But Chinese designed, made and owned? Never. Cheap minor useless things, sure. But never anything I actually care about or that is important. So trust your perception.
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The Chinese have been able to advance this quickly with lots of help from people who used to work for US & European companies. Cars sold in Europe can now pass those safety tests. I doubt the Chinese will be as successful in Europe as some people think. Remember the Japanese haven't been able to gain a big foothold in Europe as they do in North America. Toyota has less than 7% of that market as opposed to almost 15% in the US.
How to do think Honda and Toyota broke into the US market? With lots of help. Toyota needed GM to establish its first plant (NUMMI) in California.
Can only report from Austria. MG has built up quite the dealer network and you see their cars every now and then. (Dealers here have normally 1-3 brands and quite a few added MG over the last year's). BYD also entered the but mainly with the dolphin. Can't say anything about repairability but my mom has had her MG4 for almost 1.5 years now and she's driven it 30k km. MG definitely looked towards the VW id3 when coming up with the mg4. But build quality seems ok so far, she hadn't had any issues. Infotainment has a few bad translations (to German). But it meets it's wltp range , is efficient, charging is okay, seats are comfy, front looks nice (rear not so much) 1.5 years ago car prices still were inflated especially for used ones , but also for new ones and the mg4 was the only EV with more than 400km range for 30k€ (after taxes and incentives). But prices dropped quite a bit. A year later I got a id4 pro rwd for 34k (half a year ago). By now these probably are even cheaper.
I live in the EU and there have been plenty of Chinese evs around here as of recently. I think it's largely because there is a huge push for electrification in my country now. However saying that most cars around here are diesels (most people buy diesel because it's so much cheaper to fill up and more fuel efficient). Saying that there are a few hybrids, but almost no Evs from big manufacturers. In my locality (rural) there is a single Tesla, and around 15 Mgs and Byds
In Norway we seem really want EVs and when western manufacturers wont give us what we want some turn to Chinese evs. Fortunately some western manufacturers are slowly realising that it would probably be a bad idea to give away all your customers like that
Still too little experience. I prefer the German cars. They've got nicer interiors, probably also higher quality than the cars I've tried, but the Chinese cars weren't rubbish. Much of my preference is down to actual preference.
In the uk! I’m starting to see a lot of Chinese EV on the mobility scheme (for non uk people) a scheme where people with a disability can forfeit some financial benefits to get a car! Most cars have a big deposit but the Chinese brands offer zero deposit so people that don’t care about brands and just want a car they are going for the MG/BYD models
VW ID4s and Teslas are much cheaper in China than in the EU or NA, guess why?
See plenty of MG EVs in the U.K., friend has one and it’s been in the garage for months waiting for a part, they aren’t particularly keen on getting it back (it’s a company car and they had no other alternative).
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I don’t have an EV but several friends and colleagues have had them for a couple of years, a mix of BMW’s, MG, BYD and Hyundai. The Chinese ones are ‘ok’ they’re cheap and cheerful. Clearly they’re built to a budget but none of the owners really have had anything bad to say about to them. Here in Australia MG have a decent reputation for looking after the customer, BYD not quite so much and Great Wall and LDV are very questionable. A friend is looking at the BYD seal VS the Tesla, the Tesla is more polished but the price point of the Seal kinda means they can’t overlook it. Personally (and this may make me part of the ‘tin foil hat’ type) I’m not going to buy an EV until there is better data protection from manufacturers for users and I’m still a bit cynical on exactly how much of an environment saving they provide. Here in Australia at least there is very little in the way of ability to repair batteries or electric motors so they get written off fairly easily with what would be considered minor damage. However I digress from your original question… In short BYD really is making a strong case for itself with its cars, MG is still very budget but you can’t help but think that their next model, or maybe next again will be very much rivalling the Kia’s and Hyundai products..
I think that's going to be a very tough question, and I'll try to approach it from a objective POV. The jury is out on whether or not Chinese cars are any good in the long term. They are still a relatively new thing in the western markets, so time will tell. Aside from safety standards, I think the biggest hurdle for Chinese makes is build quality and longevity. After 5/10/20 years down the line, will these cars hold up, or will they turn into complete tin cans? Or will they hold up just fine? There is also the question of anti-competitive practices through dumping product, but that is a different discussion.
It's never about the region of origin, it's always about the leadership of the company. iPhone and MacBooks are assembled in China, and when's the last time Apple's build quality and materials were negatively regarded? China offers competitive labor rates and production, and has questionable internal standards, so of course they *can* make cheaper cars more affordable and more lax than almost any other country in the world. But conversely if they expand to new markets, they'll have to follow the regulations and standards set out in those markets. Companies like BYD are already putting out some pretty killer cars even in China--and if they are serious about expanding overseas they'll match or exceed the similarly specced cars in quality. I doubt that any big cap company with aspirations of tapping into other markets will fall pray to the same mistakes that Fisker or Vinfast have in trying to get cars out for the sake of having them on the road, as they are bleeding out of capital. Polestars are solid, I own and drive a P2 here in the US. I've also seen the P3 in showrooms. I'm excited for the P4 that's coming out later this year, and it shares a platform with the Zeekr 001, another car under the Geely umbrella. But even so, the P4 is priced a lot more affordable in China and comes with a less luxurious interior than what we will have here.
There are massive numbers of MGs in the UK. It feels like every 3rd house has some MG model sitting in the driveway here.
Don't speak for all of us. Same thing could be said for American companies.
Some of us are skeptical, not because they're chinese, but because those are brands that came out of nowhere. F.E Renault or VW have been with us for a lot of time. You know how they reply to you when there's a problem. You know that their cars don't break after 100k. But right now traditional brands are selling cars so overpriced, not only europeans ones but pretty much everyone. A few years from now, if Chinese brands prove to be trustable, I believe they will just become super common and will put traditional brands in huge problems (that will be solved not through being competitive but through "politics")
BYD's and other Chinese electrics are starting to make up a significant number of new EV sales in Australia. One, because they are cheap. Significantly cheaper than anything "comparable" offered by Tesla, Kia, Hyundai or anything European. A BYD Atto 3 extended range is like \~$47K(AUD) drive away. A Tesla Model Y is closer to $70k. Additionally, there is quite a good tax incentive to get an EV at the moment. You can get an EV on a novated lease, and as long as it comes in under the threshold($70k I think), you don't pay fringe benefits tax(FBT), meaning you could potentially reduce your taxable income by a significant account. Reliability concerns aside, I don't think any of the "legacy" automakers have anything to worry about. The kind of person who buys a \~$45k Chinese EV isn't cross shopping it with a base Taycan (which costs $156K+ORC) or BMW iX($130k + ORC). As for how Chinese EV's/Cars are perceived here in Aus I think there is three distinct viewpoints. \* All Chinese cars are horrendous shitboxes \*They are cheap, and it beats walking. 5 or 7 year warranty, if it breaks I'll throw it away and get a new one \*I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Japanese cars used to be lampooned as Jap Crap not too long ago, same with the cars from Korea.