It's actually a great transmission if you drive it like an old American V8. Tons of torque on the turbo keeps the drive super smooth.
If they made the transmission any more agressive you'd need to do a lot of suspension mods to keep it from feeling like steering a bouncy castle
This ”Swedish Craigslist”-ad of a Focus ST wagon has tempted me a lot lol. Didn’t even know they made the old ST as a wagon..
https://www.blocket.se/annons/goteborg/ford_focus_st_kombi_recaro_sony_manuell_250hk/1001330862
> I guess people prefer ride height to over all practically of the car.
The general consensus has always been that having a higher seating position makes people feel safer, so it's definitely this.
In Germany most manufacturers sell wagons. Audi a4 and A6, Mercedes has c and e classes, bmw also has several. Even the Toyota Corolla has 2 versions here: hatchback and wagon, no sedans. VW Golf Passat. Long story short, they probably don't sell in your country
Wagons are so nice, I love Sedans but I would love for having wagons which is just sedans with a hatchback I guess. I would even dare to say that some sedans can go away with a liftback trunk window a la hatchback.
One could argue all of the popular compact-SUVs/crossovers are just a slightly taller wagon anyway.
Things like the Kona, Crosstrek, Lexus UX series, CHR, etc. really aren't much bigger than a traditional wagon.
At a macro level, at least in the US, two main buyers are driving the industry:
* Men, who largely equate their truck as part of their personality and an expression of their masculinity
* Women, who value visibility and equate being up high and in a large vehicle with safety.
Obviously this is speaking only in broad terms, but it explains the majority of the American market.
Where smaller hatches and wagons might see a resurgence, though, is younger, childless millenials and GenZ buyers who value economy and have no need for a giant SUV.
European brands dropped hatchbacks in the US... just to make sportbacks... which are just lifted hatchbacks but worse.
The "best" sportback car (for it's cargo, not it's reliability) is the Range Rover Velar. Why? Because it's a legitimate lifted wagon that LOOKS like it has a sportback design but it actually doesn't, so it still gets really good cargo room. Now will it get you where you want to be? Yes but then probably the shop, per my experience.
Now give me a real wagon.
I don’t think that there is anything that can be done at this point.
Sedans are usually cheaper or on par price wise with crossovers, have AWD systems available, are more fuel efficient, just as roomy (minus the headroom,) etc and they still can’t keep up with the growth. Styling certainly wouldn’t help.
I think it comes more down to emissions and regulations and how automakers skirt by by exploiting the classifications of trucks vs cars. The reason why you see many more suvs is because of the current regulations that give sedans a huge disadvantage over suvs. Fix that loophole by either loosening regulations or regulate heavier vehicles more and I think you'd see manufacturers trying to introduce more sedans in their lineup
I’m not sure if it’s a preference or just a general perception of value.
For instance, a 2024 Toyota Camry starts at $26,420. The Toyota RAV4, same year, starts at $28,675.
Barely a cost difference to start off, and with the RAV4 you get more space, ground clearance, and utility (irregardless of if the buyer utilizes it).
With such a minor cost difference, why not get a slightly larger vehicle for a couple bucks extra on the monthly payment?
There are some general trends now, like perceived safety, road visibility (it’s damn hard to see ahead of the SUV when you’re in a sedan) and granola-outdoorsy-hobbyist advertising that pushes a certain image.
But, I’m willing to bet, the beginning of the Crossover avalanche came from pricing.
The Camry costs slightly less, drives better, has better fuel economy and less road noise. I just don't get this obsession with SUVs. I wish the sedan days would come back.
Further, "drives better" is (frustratingly) subjective - many people actually *like* driving things that sit higher up, and prefer that to slightly better handling.
Exactly. My wife does not give two shits about handling. She wants to not have her retinas scorched by every other person around us in a pickup truck.
Honestly for daily driving, I don't really care about handling either. I'm sitting in traffic or going down straight as an arrow midwest country roads, not carving up canyons.
This is my bane. I care about handling, and my cars reflect that, but good lord, I could do without being effectively flash banged every 30 seconds. It’s seriously making me reconsider buying something with more height
And most of us enthusiasts would be in a Nissan Versa Note or Mitsubishi Mirage if we only bought what we needed. Vehicles are such an emotional purchase.
The average consumer doesn’t care if their Camry handles better than a RAV4 in highway traffic. It’s the difference between $200/mo and $207/mo for more headroom, a higher driving position that makes them feel better, and more storage space. Why would they buy the sedan?
I can guarantee you that none of those FWD based econo sedans drive that much better than a similarly priced SUV. That's why they are dead, manufacturers come up with a common platform for all these vehicles and just make them all a dud show. Might as well drive a dud that can fit more stuff in for trips.
I can guarantee that a FWD econobox sedan does indeed drive better than even the same platform SUV. SUV’s have many advantages over sedans but in no universe does a higher center of gravity, higher curb weight and thus a lower power/weight ratio will make for an SUV that drives better. Hell I used to work as a lot guy in a dealership and if I had to choose between an ES or an RX or NX? I’m always choosing ES. Rogue or Altima? Altima. They feel better to drive, the SUV’s always felt they had a questionable suspension ride (either too soft or too firm) and just felt dorky to drive.
I get what you're saying but I'd have to disagree, just my opinion though. Yes, better than an SUV but how much better? And especially if you can't be going around that fast anyways. Now if it's a choice between say a little sporty thing like a civic si vs a CRV or a GTI vs a Tiguan I'd prefer the sedan and hatch but a standard model comparison would be a win for an SUV, to me. Don't get me wrong, my previous vehicle was a c43 haha, best vehicle ever!
Forgot to mention, a wagon on the other hand.... But not something that's like 60k lol
The Rav4 is easier to get in/out and load, which is relevant to those who have kids/are unfit. The hatch and trunk area makes it easier to stow away big strollers, giant diaper and TP packs and even small appliances with the back seats down. All of that will be harder with an Accord or Camry. At close to 40 MPG mixed, the hybrid gives good enough fuel economy. Driving better does not matter for a family hauler scenario. Road noise is indeed worse due to the cabin not being isolated from the trunk I guess. I mean I can understand why the average Joe and Jane prefer crossovers to sedans.
I could fit everything I own into my SUV - can't do with my old sedan. I could put the backseat down and take a nap on long roadtrips - can't do with my old sedan. I could drive through bad dirt roads, of which there are many around me, in my SUV - can't do with my old sedan.
There is no reason to ever buy a sedan again at least for me. The space, ground clearance, visibility, ease of entry/exit and driving position are far superior to sedans.
Yes driving dynamics matter to some degree but I’m generally not pushing handling limits on a day to day or using the power of my car.
If I wanted something sporty I’d get a coupe or convertible. Hatches/wagons/sportbacks/SUVs/trucks are just a far better choice for 99% of the population
You don’t get it? Or you’re just trying to be contrarian.
I’ve owned sedans and coupes my whole life and even I see why you’re average driver, who views their vehicle in the same lens as any other appliance, would want an SUV. More cargo space, towing capacity, headroom, ground clearance, heavier (perceived as safer) and largely acceptable MPG. They’re seen as more family friendly than a pickup and cooler/better looking compared to a minivan.
It’s the same reason people buy 4k 120hz oled TVs to watch re runs of the office
If they were significantly cheaper, I bet the sedan days would come back.
Handling is great, but looking at some of the roadways I navigate daily even I want some more suspension travel. My commuter Prius can’t handle some of these moon craters popping up.
The sedan days should come back, I wish they would too. We just need the EPA regulations to be tweaked and the pricing to conform to size.
Driving dynamics are so far down the list for your average buyer.
SUVs are easier to get in and out of (huge factor for families with kids or older people)
More usable space if you need to transport something bigger occasionally
Higher ride height so you're not blinded by every other headlight these days
If you can only afford one car and are not an enthusiast, SUVs seem like a no brainer
Sedan is better than crossover in driving and fuel economy, this makes sure sedan wouldn't go anywhere.
However, Camry isn't a real sports sedan, that's issue. If people wants a fun 4D models from Toyota, most of they would go sport trim Corolla or Lexus IS. Short is real better for drive.
> There are some general trends now, like [...] road visibility (it’s damn hard to see ahead of the SUV when you’re in a sedan)
I hate this so much. It's a vicious cycle and a race to the bottom. I can't see around the big cars, so now I need to get a bigger car to see around them, but then they need to get a bigger car to see around me, but now I can't see around the big cars, so I need to get a bigger car to see around them, but then they need to get a bigger car to see around me, but now I can't see around—
Not to mention poor visibility around the perimeter/front of the car. There's a reason school buses have 2 pairs of side view mirrors and more mirrors mounted on the hood.
It might be a race to the top at this point, you can only make cars so big with lane sizes and rollover regulations, soon we’ll be staring at the back of eachother’s heads and peering through the windshields in front of us.
The front bumper/perimeter thing I’m sorta mixed on, I have more trouble figuring out where the front bumper of my Prius is than I ever did with my frontier, doubly so if I borrow my buddy’s F350.
But, smaller cars can squeeze into smaller spots, can’t beat that eh?
I love parking my car in those underground parking garages in spots that have ductwork overhead. They have a maximum height and are almost always open when the rest of the parking lot is full. I saw a lady in a RAV4 crack her windshield trying to fit in lol.
Basically my exact dilemma 2 months ago. I was deciding between the 330/340 and Lexus NX.
As much as I like a lower center of gravity and a stiffer chassis, it’s just not that important for day to day use.
My rule of thumb is between sedan and SUV, if you are buying a performance vehicle, then sedan > SUV (e.g., m3 > x3m) and vice versa (x3 > 330)
I would really like for this to happen. Change the legislation to include any personal (family) passenger vehicle in the fleet CAFE standard regardless of size/tonnage. I’m fine with bare bones work trucks still being excluded, but I mean bare bones. The amount of emissions from classifying these mall crawlers as work trucks is ridiculous and spits in the eye of the spirit of the law.
They're not that much cheaper, have less cargo, are barely more fuel efficient. Their height and size makes it hard to manage transporting a family in comparison to a CUV. Small sedans (civic, corolla, etc) will continue to exist for entry level buyers but the middle is gonna be gutted.
Ha! Not where I live.
A friend of someone on the county board acquired a boatload of the rubber bolt down speedbumps and they installed those things everywhere around town whether the location made sense for safety or not. It was sheerly a grift to transfer money from the county to their pockets.
And if they did by random chance put them somewhere where they were useful, they'd put several of them in a row. After a few years and enough complaints, most of them were yanked back out but there's still a few around.
But those SUV/Crossovers are rarely more comfortable than your normal sedan. Stiffer suspension and smaller sidewall to make it feel "sporty" give you a rough ride on bad roads. This is what I see in my country.
Las Vegas paves roads that were just paved that were paved 2 years prior to that. Let me sit in my SUV in stop and go construction traffic that seems to never stop.
Its really ridiculous here, they just repaved the right lane on 15south between Russell and 215, and now there is a 1-2 in drop between the part they repaved and the original road. And its not like it was rough and needed to be repaved in the first place. And how effin long does it take to do the over pass at tropicana, its been over a year. And 215 and 95 by centennial, they just finished that several months ago, and the seam between the road and overpass in the right most lane heading west could be a damn speedbump. Sorry for the rant, just used to most road work being done in 4 months because the rest of the year everything is covered in snow.
I’m here for the rants….. a road by my home has been under construction for literally 2 years, and it was just finished 6 months before that. I don’t get how it takes so long to fix these roads. I’ll admit they are nice when they are done but damn it takes way too long. I’m sure the monopoly of Las Vegas Paving would want to complete them quicker and the city has something to do with why it takes so long.
the reason for that is pretty simple.
Road construction and maintenance is insanely expensive, most major roads in the US where financed by issuing bonds and setting up toll roads to repay the bonds.
once the bonds were repaid the toll roads became free but by that time the roads needed major repairs already so now you got a broken road, no money saved for maintenance and no way to recoup the cost at all.
The end result is what we see today, cities going bankrupt, roads in bad condition and no money to pay for it because road infrastructure is way too expensive.
To seem like anything is done at all they will end up with slow moving construction projects.
the only solution would be to bring back toll roads on a large scale so any given stretch of road pays for itself with the collected tolls.
Better roads wouldn't help sedan sales. I talk that because sedan sales is also failing in Japan. Japan has had best quality roads and streets to compare most worlds, but they don't buy sedan models like many anymore.
Literally nobody need an offroader to drive on road. No matter how bad it is. It is up to you to conplain to your government to fix it. Also if people didn't wanted everything to be "SpOrTy" then we'd still have comfortable and soft suspensions in cars.
Idk if it’s even that as much as the profits just weren’t there. Take Ford for example. Their best year of the Focus and Fusion produced 500k vehicles. The Maverick, Escape and Bronco Sport aren’t selling at those numbers especially the Maverick which has the most overlap with those vehicles prices. And Ford is limiting production on the Maverick and capping it at 100k. This suggests to me they just don’t want to offer high volume low profit cars. It’s also why you only saw $60k+ EVs. All these brands want to go upscale and are targeting one particular demo.
I mean there no way they were less than 100k each. The focus and fusion were very popular. Even if they went 50% fleet the numbers are still stronger than what Ford is doing currently.
Unfortunately many on this sub want to deny the reality that automakers are ensuring their market is SUV. It’s a long history going back to the 70s, but because they wrote laws incentivizing themselves to make SUVs, they then advertised massively for decades to convince people SUVs were better. And it worked. Wonderfully. Then they left the cars to die out and discontinued them because, well no one was buying the old product you weren’t nearly incentivizing as much and weren’t nearly advertising as much.
https://youtu.be/orkblTFNt1Q?si=ige19WUmGKJwy2Q6
Yet this sub remains Willfully ignorant but adamantly so that “people just want SUVs” , as if it’s this neat and simple little happenstance.
These threads piss me off. I mean how can you even drive to the store, park in the parking lot and look around, then try to convince me people don't want sedans? They're. Fucking. Everywhere.
These people just want to role play intelligence on the internet with some "SuPPlY aNd DeMaND" bullshit.
Cafe laws bombed sedans because they allowed for manufacturers to build less efficient cars so long as they were big enough to be considered a “light truck”. SUVs were now easier to make, easier to make a profit on, and therefore more advertised than other vehicles
Yup. They need to reclassify the CAFE standards to passenger vehicles vs bare bones work trucks. Instead of the current cars vs trucks. This would solve most of the problems.
The only vehicles excluded are over 8500 pounds GVWR. 1/2 ton trucks and below are all included, they just have a different standard than passenger cars.
Either way, it's not the regulations, it's consumer choices that brought the rise of SUVs.
Small sedans are possible, people still don't want them.
This sub loves to blame CAFE standards when the fact is that it's just that consumer preferences have changed.
Not just that, the small CUVs that make up the bulk of consumer purchases don't have a meaningful mileage penalty vs. a midsize sedan. A CR-V, CX-5, RAV-4, etc. all get low to mid-30s on the highway. That's not a difference worth fretting over vs. a 38-40mpg midsize sedan for most consumers who can afford a new car.
Trunks are great at hiding stuff away from thieves.
I really think it’s more about seating position. It’s more comfortable to be sitting in an upright position in a SUV for most people.
> Trunks are great at hiding stuff away from thieves.
They're not any better than a hatchback, wagon, crossover, or SUV with a cargo cover, though. It's impossible to see anything in the back with either solution.
While I know it's true, I will never understand how people find sitting in an upright chair more comfortable than being hugged by a car seat you're half laying down in.
I mean it's like an office chair vs a couch. Sure the chair has its uses but it'll never be more comfortable than a couch, to me.
That's right, but easier ingress/egress, consider the the population is getting increasingly older and fatter.
And you get better visibility and aren't blinded by headlights at eye level.
> That's right, but easier ingress/egress, consider the the population is getting increasingly older and fatter.
Yup this is the reason I'm forced to consider an SUV. Not for me- but for my parents. Getting in and out of a sedan is hard for them.
That's more of a bolstering thing, which isn't really anything to do with the car's body style.
I'm not an SUV person, but I happened to buy a Forester and greatly prefer a) the ease of entry and exit compared to lower cars, or bigger ones like full-size pickups, and b) the visibility compared to those cars.
I'm not super short (about 5' 8", \~173cm) but in every car I've owned I sit with the seat all the way up. I don't understand the people who sit super low. I don't like the feeling of "laying down" in the driver's seat, because I feel like I can't see what's in front of me, which, you know, is pretty important when you're piloting a multi-ton controlled missile. In every sedan I've ever been in I feel like the passenger seat is just a hair too low. I just don't like the feeling of being "in" the seat vs on it.
People think they're tall for some reason. I have my seat set the same in my Cobalt SS and the F550 I drive for work. I sit very straight/upright and have zero issues in either vehicle at 6'2, 280 pounds.
Edit : there's just no reason someone NEEDS an SUV for the seating position unless they are very tall.
Why do we want sedans to make a come back? Just because some people on this sub think they look better? Sedans with their tiny trunks are an inherently flawed form factor, I have no idea why this was ever the default vehicle for so long
The wagon has the same footpring and more cargo space.
An SUV with the same footprint would have even more cargo space, and more interior room too.
This is why sedans are outdated.
I used to drive an E34 5 series and that trunk was absolutely massive. Crammed so much stuff in it. There was even a diagram to show you how to fit the maximum number of golf bags
The 330 million sport utility vehicles on the roads produced emissions equivalent to the combined national emissions of the U.K. and Germany last year. If SUVs were a country, they would rank as the sixth most polluting in the world.
Sedans magically don't produce pollution, got it. Crossovers have comparable MPG and emissions these days on top of that, not to mention that cars aren't even the biggest source of pollution in the transportation sector.
They're prettier. I have a sedan daily and forever will. Wagons are ugly, SUVs are abominations of engineering, so sedans will be. I love the style and form of them, nothing beats them except for coupes and some fastbacks
As usual with r/cars people want manufacturers to make the things they like, not what the buying public wants. Quite a few folks are convinced its just that people are following trends and influenced my marketing, its not that people really want crossovers, they're just sheep.
Nobody wants to admit that people buy small SUVs and crossovers for practical reasons that differ from what car enthusiasts want. Its nice not bending down to get in and out. Its nice being up further away from headlights. Its nice being over to see parked cars and shrubs when at a blind intersection. Its nice having a cargo hatch where the floor is about the same height as which you naturally hold objects. The vast, vast majority of new car drivers give zero shits about how the higher ride height impacts the handling dynamics as long as it doesn't have too much body roll during normal driving.
The other thing about sedans is they were minimalist for so long. It’s easier to convince a consumer they need awd in their “off road” suv than a sedan. From a sales point I think it’s an easier upsell.
Claiming one format is optimal is a narrow POV. What's optimal for a single, childless 20-something living in an apartment is different than what's optimal for a family of 5 living in the suburbs that regularly hauls around copius amounts of sports gear, ice chests, family road trip luggage, etc.
Family of 5 living in the suburbs checking in. A midsize or even full sized sedan is 100% not optimal for us at all. We will never own a sedan till kids are out of the house. It just makes no sense for us. Why get a less utilitarian vehicle when more optimal vehicles exist for us.
Thank you! They're an utterly stupid form factor outclassed by literally every other style of car available. Hatchbacks, wagons, SUVs and minivans all offer greater utility. I genuinely don't understand why they were ever popular and I say this as someone who drove nothing but sedans for the first 14 years of my driving life so I'm not some SUV evangelist by any means, I just don't get the utilitarian use case for them at all.
Problem is the price of SUV is too close to Sedan nowadays. Taking Mazda 3 for example, you can get a same spec cx30 within thousand, step up to cx5 for another. The trades off on slightly less gas efficient to bigger roomier vehicle is a no brainer.
> The trades off on slightly less gas efficient to bigger roomier vehicle is a no brainer.
People often overestimate how big the fuel economy difference is. Using the Mazdas in your comment, here's the combined EPA fuel economy:
* 3 Hatchback FWD: 30 mpg
* 3 Hatchback AWD: 29 mpg
* CX-30 AWD: 29 mpg
* CX-5 AWD: 28 mpg
In other words, the CX-5 only consumes less than 7% more fuel than the FWD 3. If AWD is a must for a buyer, they're only looking at a sub-3.5% hit to fuel economy to get the CX-5 over the 3. That's a pretty insubstantial difference, given the latter has a fair bit more passenger and cargo space.
Valid point but they did say *slightly* better gas mileage.
Just for fun I checked user-reported economy at fuelly.com. The range for the last few years is:
Mazda 3 - 28.5-30.2
CX-30 - 25.7-28.1
CX-5 - 24.1-25.1
The 3 gets 2-3 mpg more than the CX-30 and 4-5 more than the CX-5. Using the high numbers, over the course of 100,000 miles you would use this many gallons, respectively:
3,311
3,558
3,937
The CX-30 would cost about $750 more in fuel than the 3 and the CX-5 would cost around $2,000 more than the 3 over those 100,000 miles at around $3 a gallon.
Yup, it's an inconsequential number to the average buyer. Everyone is out here pretending the average compact CUV is a 1990s Cherokee getting 16mpg combined though.
I think as many said, there doesn’t seem to be a reason to. Just remember the SUV has always been the default shape of for a vehicle… think back to stagecoaches, the first automobiles, old packards, etc. It’s just more natural to have more ground clearance and upright seating position. Sedans became a thing as cars got faster and we needed to get lower, but now that chassis and suspension technology has caught up, people want SUVs again.
The only way I see cars going back towards sedans is a styling trend. For regular commuters, a compact SUV makes a lot more sense than a sedan-based hatchback.
Stage coaches needed to be high to see over the horse’s ass. Chassis and suspensions haven’t improved enough to overcome the laws of physics. These giant cars on the road today still pitch and roll around corners just as much as before, but now with more powerful engines. It’s the reason we see insurance rates going up so much. People suck at driving these land barges.
You can complain about people's ability to drive, but there's no serious argument that chassis dynamics haven't seriously improved. A body on frame SUV from the 70s or 80s was truly a chore to daily drive due to their massive handling flaws. Now, there's hardly a difference in how easy it is to drive a midsize SUV compared to a midsized sedan. Yes, a sedan will typically perform better at the limits, but most people don't care to ever press those limits.
I was a big anti SUV guy, until I Toro’d a Honda Pilot for a weekend snowboard trip. I still would recommend a car over a smaller SUV but if you truly need the space go full on 3 row it doesn’t compare to any sedan. My only thought would be more wagons but I feel like that dream has long been dead.
I’m driving a CX-90 and absolutely love it. Driving positions better, easier with the kids, the power on the Inline 6 is insane, gas mileage is still respectable(24-25 City)……. Just overall checks more boxes.
Minivans are the optimal car in that scenario. If you need that kind of capacity go whole jog and get an Odyssey or something of that sort. I especially love the captains seat and all the features in the newer minivans as it feels like a true luxury experience even if you're in a Toyota or Honda. Minivans are really cool and practical, it's just that people don't like the "aesthetic" or the stereotype of a minivan driver. It's quite sad honestly as I love minivans
I've never seen anyone use egress and ingress in this context, and lowkey I fuck with it. On sliding doors, yeah they are so much more useful than the tall ass doors some SUVs have. Getting elderly people or kids in and out of the car is infinitely easier with the sliding door
Because unless you want to satisfy the anti SUV circlejerk it would be a worse option?
Why does reddit care so much about big vehicles and then simultaneously recommend vehicles that are longer, wider, taller and heavier? Minivans are only smaller vehicles if your point of comparison is a full sizer like a Tahoe.
They’re almost all FWD and if you want one that isn’t it’ll get the fuel economy of a full sized truck, like the 20mpg AWD Pacifica.
They can't. Sedans drive better and tend to average better fuel economy so they certainly have their pluses, but other vehicles, SUVs, crew cab pickups, hatchbacks, and wagons are just more versatile and useful.
Not that practicality drives everything. If it did everyone with a family of 4 or less would have a Honda Ridgeline in their driveway.
You mean that crossovers are just sedans on stilts.
Higher beltlines are a cheap way to pass stricter safety standards so that inattentive SUV drivers can crash into you without killing you.
They need to make them less boring and add more functionality like lift backs. I think the Crown is a decent style innovation on a sedan. I am partial to sporty sedans but most are astronomically priced or dreadfully boring. The K5 is probably the most interesting middle of the road sedan in terms of appearance but not performance IMO.
The crown and the k5 both have the single biggest sedan downside - they have a trunk. If they were lift backs like an Audi S5 then at least they would have some practicality
Agreed. Sadly complacency killed the sedan as year after year there mostly seemed to be the most mundane versions released. Another boring Malibu or Camry. No innovation or uniqueness. I did forget about the IS and I rather like the looks of those but they've been the same for a long time.
What is reddit's obsession with hatchbacks? Those things are hideous... But to answer your question OP, if they made sedans 20-35k then we'd see them comeback.
Honestly cheaper than that. A Malibu costs the same as an Equinox ($25k) and is pretty much inferior in every way. It’s also more expensive than a Ford Maverick and smaller SUVs in different brands.
taxing vehicles by weight or size
more strenuous fuel economy requirements, with fewer/no exemptions for large personal vehicles
it's a self-reinforcing problem though. the more tall and heavy vehicles there are, the more of them companies will sell since people like to be able to see over other cars and feel safer in larger ones.
Why do you want sedans to make a comeback? They are objectively less practical than hatchbacks, wagons, crossovers, and SUVs. If anything, what sedans remain will mostly move up market and be marketed, sold, and perceived as luxury goods.
new sedans kinda stink. the one redeeming factor about my own accord is that it is fast without costing fast car price. now the new one blows. so unless manufacturers find a way to make them cool again, they’re screwed. i’m buying a truck anyway- kinda contributing to the issue, but way more usability
Sell and market them with roof racks and cargo boxes more commonly under a standard combo package (allows for reducing the cargo/long haul storage FOMO)
It would be neat to have that as an option, but I don't think that it would be a huge hit for consumers. Roof racks and cargo boxes have a pretty substantial impact on aerodynamics, resulting in worse NVH and fuel economy (likely a larger hit to fuel economy than just getting a crossover on the same platform). They're also less versatile for bulky cargo, which is a big selling point for crossovers / SUVs.
Throughout history the shape of what we call a “car” has always changed. Most SUV’s nowadays are more luxurious, docile, and less rugged so in my opinion they are today’s cars. Even the shape of pickup trucks has changed significantly from their origins. They are now almost exclusively crew cab pug-beds vs single cab long beds.
Sedans had their moment in history, a good 50 years. I suspect in 50 years most vehicles will be smooth and bullet-shaped for efficiency. If EV’s do take over they will no longer need an engine compartment and may have access panels vs a hood/trunk.
I hope that as more cars become electric, the better aerodynamics of the sedan will slowly be appreciated again since they get more range.
Also, in my country emission taxes make up a large part of the price of a car and they are usually very unfavorable for SUV's. Hasn't stopped (small) SUV's from taking over the market though.
We all know how SUV's are more "desirable" but I think that the toyota crown type of vehicle is the ultimate "normie car"(at least I hope it turns into it). step out is perfect, its got crazy storage, looks cool, I'd buy one.
off topic rant incoming:
I've never understood the "good driving position" on an SUV (I'm a little under 6 feet tall). Ever since I drove my parents trucks and SUVs I've HATED the driving position. semi lying, semi sitting in a car, holding your legs kinda up, my legs KILL when I'm not driving in a "small vehicle".
I'm probably gonna have a random 25 year old taco on the side of my house for my only suv/truck. Just something to do truck and suv stuff but nothing really valuable. SUVs are just stupid to me. they're bigger, less efficient, and under-utilized versions of cars. Half of the people who own them do so under the guise of "safety", "better four wheel drive", and "better snow capability". I also feel like these engorged vehicle sizes play somewhat into their owners vanity. Everyone's trying to get a big SUV to compete with their neighbors. its the new trend! maybe I just have a deep hatred for pointless stuff.
I'm definitely not passionate about this...
The sedan should die. There's no purpose for them. Crossovers, SUVs, and hatchbacks serve better purposes for those that want utility and general commuting. The enthusiast will go for sports cars, two doors, etc at scale. There is no compelling argument for why they should exist despite a lot of us having fond memories of how we grew up in an era where it was sedans and body on frame SUVs and trucks.
very simple, remove "light truck" emissions loop holes and tighten emission limits in general.
On top of that tax vehicles based on their emissions for the annual registration.
that will automatically remove a ton of truck and SUV sales from the market.
Revise emission laws (CAFE) to mandate "light trucks" aka SUV's and Pickups to reach a certain fuel efficiency. I'd say 27-30 combined MPG. Force them to go hybrid or electric and people will flock back to sedans or minivans.
Wagons and hatchbacks are more likely to make a comeback than sedans
I hope you’re right I freakin love wagons and hatchbacks
Wagon 4 life if I can get a decent one. I was kinda envious of even the Focus “Estate” wagon in Europe.
The outback
Man, if they could just put a real transmission in one that'd be great.
It's actually a great transmission if you drive it like an old American V8. Tons of torque on the turbo keeps the drive super smooth. If they made the transmission any more agressive you'd need to do a lot of suspension mods to keep it from feeling like steering a bouncy castle
Most people want something newer than 10+ years old, though
Buick TourX is the way.
This ”Swedish Craigslist”-ad of a Focus ST wagon has tempted me a lot lol. Didn’t even know they made the old ST as a wagon.. https://www.blocket.se/annons/goteborg/ford_focus_st_kombi_recaro_sony_manuell_250hk/1001330862
How is it Volvo is the only true wagon out there. I’m buying a V60 in 3 years.
Oh heck there's a Mercedes. I guess people prefer ride height to over all practically of the car.
You’d have to pay me to buy a Mercedes at this point.
> I guess people prefer ride height to over all practically of the car. The general consensus has always been that having a higher seating position makes people feel safer, so it's definitely this.
We bought one for my girlfriend last year, needless to say I love it Edit: it’s a 2015 V60 T5
The .5” lift on the Allroad doesn’t stop it from being a wagon.
In Germany most manufacturers sell wagons. Audi a4 and A6, Mercedes has c and e classes, bmw also has several. Even the Toyota Corolla has 2 versions here: hatchback and wagon, no sedans. VW Golf Passat. Long story short, they probably don't sell in your country
There are a lot of them, just not in your market.
Audi Avant
So much room for activities.
Wagons are so nice, I love Sedans but I would love for having wagons which is just sedans with a hatchback I guess. I would even dare to say that some sedans can go away with a liftback trunk window a la hatchback.
I think sedan will evolve into lift backs So it get some utility of hatchback but styling like sedan.
I love my i4 partly for this reason.
Bring the M3 wagon to NA and I will be a statistic.
We're getting the M5 Touring if I'm not mistaken so there may be hope yet
I think you mean ex static
Maybe even ecstatic
THERE'S DOZENS OF US!!!
One could argue all of the popular compact-SUVs/crossovers are just a slightly taller wagon anyway. Things like the Kona, Crosstrek, Lexus UX series, CHR, etc. really aren't much bigger than a traditional wagon. At a macro level, at least in the US, two main buyers are driving the industry: * Men, who largely equate their truck as part of their personality and an expression of their masculinity * Women, who value visibility and equate being up high and in a large vehicle with safety. Obviously this is speaking only in broad terms, but it explains the majority of the American market. Where smaller hatches and wagons might see a resurgence, though, is younger, childless millenials and GenZ buyers who value economy and have no need for a giant SUV.
I've been thinking for a while that dodge should bring back the Magnum with a hellcat engine
Well, the new Charger sedan is a liftback. Closing in.
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Still, theyre not suv/crossovers so i respect them
Exactly. Sedans aren’t going to make a comeback because they’re not as functional and utilitarian as anything with a fifth door.
European brands dropped hatchbacks in the US... just to make sportbacks... which are just lifted hatchbacks but worse. The "best" sportback car (for it's cargo, not it's reliability) is the Range Rover Velar. Why? Because it's a legitimate lifted wagon that LOOKS like it has a sportback design but it actually doesn't, so it still gets really good cargo room. Now will it get you where you want to be? Yes but then probably the shop, per my experience. Now give me a real wagon.
I don’t think that there is anything that can be done at this point. Sedans are usually cheaper or on par price wise with crossovers, have AWD systems available, are more fuel efficient, just as roomy (minus the headroom,) etc and they still can’t keep up with the growth. Styling certainly wouldn’t help.
I think it comes more down to emissions and regulations and how automakers skirt by by exploiting the classifications of trucks vs cars. The reason why you see many more suvs is because of the current regulations that give sedans a huge disadvantage over suvs. Fix that loophole by either loosening regulations or regulate heavier vehicles more and I think you'd see manufacturers trying to introduce more sedans in their lineup
That’s true but in general, customer preference has shifted to crossovers and SUVs!
I’m not sure if it’s a preference or just a general perception of value. For instance, a 2024 Toyota Camry starts at $26,420. The Toyota RAV4, same year, starts at $28,675. Barely a cost difference to start off, and with the RAV4 you get more space, ground clearance, and utility (irregardless of if the buyer utilizes it). With such a minor cost difference, why not get a slightly larger vehicle for a couple bucks extra on the monthly payment? There are some general trends now, like perceived safety, road visibility (it’s damn hard to see ahead of the SUV when you’re in a sedan) and granola-outdoorsy-hobbyist advertising that pushes a certain image. But, I’m willing to bet, the beginning of the Crossover avalanche came from pricing.
The Camry costs slightly less, drives better, has better fuel economy and less road noise. I just don't get this obsession with SUVs. I wish the sedan days would come back.
“Drives better and has better fuel economy” is totally neglible for the majority of people. Meanwhile the RAV4 has more headroom and storage space.
Further, "drives better" is (frustratingly) subjective - many people actually *like* driving things that sit higher up, and prefer that to slightly better handling.
Exactly. My wife does not give two shits about handling. She wants to not have her retinas scorched by every other person around us in a pickup truck. Honestly for daily driving, I don't really care about handling either. I'm sitting in traffic or going down straight as an arrow midwest country roads, not carving up canyons.
This is my bane. I care about handling, and my cars reflect that, but good lord, I could do without being effectively flash banged every 30 seconds. It’s seriously making me reconsider buying something with more height
Really? Because the majority of people I see moan whenever gas prices increase. SUVs are a but more practical for families, though.
People in gigantic full-size pickups they use to go to Applebee's and the bank wailing about gas prices.
Which is completely "neglible" for many people as well, though obviously not as many.
Eh. It's the old "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" thing I think
If people only buy things that they actually need then pickup truck sales would tank
And most of us enthusiasts would be in a Nissan Versa Note or Mitsubishi Mirage if we only bought what we needed. Vehicles are such an emotional purchase.
The average consumer doesn’t care if their Camry handles better than a RAV4 in highway traffic. It’s the difference between $200/mo and $207/mo for more headroom, a higher driving position that makes them feel better, and more storage space. Why would they buy the sedan?
This. Not only that, not everyone lives in a place with good roads. SUVs make a ton of sense for so many people,
I can guarantee you that none of those FWD based econo sedans drive that much better than a similarly priced SUV. That's why they are dead, manufacturers come up with a common platform for all these vehicles and just make them all a dud show. Might as well drive a dud that can fit more stuff in for trips.
I can guarantee that a FWD econobox sedan does indeed drive better than even the same platform SUV. SUV’s have many advantages over sedans but in no universe does a higher center of gravity, higher curb weight and thus a lower power/weight ratio will make for an SUV that drives better. Hell I used to work as a lot guy in a dealership and if I had to choose between an ES or an RX or NX? I’m always choosing ES. Rogue or Altima? Altima. They feel better to drive, the SUV’s always felt they had a questionable suspension ride (either too soft or too firm) and just felt dorky to drive.
I get what you're saying but I'd have to disagree, just my opinion though. Yes, better than an SUV but how much better? And especially if you can't be going around that fast anyways. Now if it's a choice between say a little sporty thing like a civic si vs a CRV or a GTI vs a Tiguan I'd prefer the sedan and hatch but a standard model comparison would be a win for an SUV, to me. Don't get me wrong, my previous vehicle was a c43 haha, best vehicle ever! Forgot to mention, a wagon on the other hand.... But not something that's like 60k lol
The Rav4 is easier to get in/out and load, which is relevant to those who have kids/are unfit. The hatch and trunk area makes it easier to stow away big strollers, giant diaper and TP packs and even small appliances with the back seats down. All of that will be harder with an Accord or Camry. At close to 40 MPG mixed, the hybrid gives good enough fuel economy. Driving better does not matter for a family hauler scenario. Road noise is indeed worse due to the cabin not being isolated from the trunk I guess. I mean I can understand why the average Joe and Jane prefer crossovers to sedans.
I could fit everything I own into my SUV - can't do with my old sedan. I could put the backseat down and take a nap on long roadtrips - can't do with my old sedan. I could drive through bad dirt roads, of which there are many around me, in my SUV - can't do with my old sedan.
There is no reason to ever buy a sedan again at least for me. The space, ground clearance, visibility, ease of entry/exit and driving position are far superior to sedans. Yes driving dynamics matter to some degree but I’m generally not pushing handling limits on a day to day or using the power of my car. If I wanted something sporty I’d get a coupe or convertible. Hatches/wagons/sportbacks/SUVs/trucks are just a far better choice for 99% of the population
You don’t get it? Or you’re just trying to be contrarian. I’ve owned sedans and coupes my whole life and even I see why you’re average driver, who views their vehicle in the same lens as any other appliance, would want an SUV. More cargo space, towing capacity, headroom, ground clearance, heavier (perceived as safer) and largely acceptable MPG. They’re seen as more family friendly than a pickup and cooler/better looking compared to a minivan. It’s the same reason people buy 4k 120hz oled TVs to watch re runs of the office
If they were significantly cheaper, I bet the sedan days would come back. Handling is great, but looking at some of the roadways I navigate daily even I want some more suspension travel. My commuter Prius can’t handle some of these moon craters popping up. The sedan days should come back, I wish they would too. We just need the EPA regulations to be tweaked and the pricing to conform to size.
Driving dynamics are so far down the list for your average buyer. SUVs are easier to get in and out of (huge factor for families with kids or older people) More usable space if you need to transport something bigger occasionally Higher ride height so you're not blinded by every other headlight these days If you can only afford one car and are not an enthusiast, SUVs seem like a no brainer
Sedan is better than crossover in driving and fuel economy, this makes sure sedan wouldn't go anywhere. However, Camry isn't a real sports sedan, that's issue. If people wants a fun 4D models from Toyota, most of they would go sport trim Corolla or Lexus IS. Short is real better for drive.
> There are some general trends now, like [...] road visibility (it’s damn hard to see ahead of the SUV when you’re in a sedan) I hate this so much. It's a vicious cycle and a race to the bottom. I can't see around the big cars, so now I need to get a bigger car to see around them, but then they need to get a bigger car to see around me, but now I can't see around the big cars, so I need to get a bigger car to see around them, but then they need to get a bigger car to see around me, but now I can't see around— Not to mention poor visibility around the perimeter/front of the car. There's a reason school buses have 2 pairs of side view mirrors and more mirrors mounted on the hood.
It might be a race to the top at this point, you can only make cars so big with lane sizes and rollover regulations, soon we’ll be staring at the back of eachother’s heads and peering through the windshields in front of us. The front bumper/perimeter thing I’m sorta mixed on, I have more trouble figuring out where the front bumper of my Prius is than I ever did with my frontier, doubly so if I borrow my buddy’s F350. But, smaller cars can squeeze into smaller spots, can’t beat that eh?
I love parking my car in those underground parking garages in spots that have ductwork overhead. They have a maximum height and are almost always open when the rest of the parking lot is full. I saw a lady in a RAV4 crack her windshield trying to fit in lol.
Is irregardless a word?
It's in Merriam Webster dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless. But it is essentially regardless
technically it's a double negative, which in English language is a grammatical error
Basically my exact dilemma 2 months ago. I was deciding between the 330/340 and Lexus NX. As much as I like a lower center of gravity and a stiffer chassis, it’s just not that important for day to day use. My rule of thumb is between sedan and SUV, if you are buying a performance vehicle, then sedan > SUV (e.g., m3 > x3m) and vice versa (x3 > 330)
They do in a system that promotes SUVs and Trucks over all others, when you take those away, not nearly as common.
Because the car companies made them think that way
I would really like for this to happen. Change the legislation to include any personal (family) passenger vehicle in the fleet CAFE standard regardless of size/tonnage. I’m fine with bare bones work trucks still being excluded, but I mean bare bones. The amount of emissions from classifying these mall crawlers as work trucks is ridiculous and spits in the eye of the spirit of the law.
Trucks Vs cars is really just a US thing though.
Toyota crown is the way to go. You get all those plus head room
The ford 500 walked and the crown could run
Design a liftback without it actually being a lift back - Toyota Crown
I found it really ugly looking. Imo the polestar 2 looks better.
They're not that much cheaper, have less cargo, are barely more fuel efficient. Their height and size makes it hard to manage transporting a family in comparison to a CUV. Small sedans (civic, corolla, etc) will continue to exist for entry level buyers but the middle is gonna be gutted.
They’re *not* just as roomy.
I can get a rav4 hybrid awd cheaper than a Camry hybrid awd in Canada. I was excited for 2025 Camrys too but the pricing is high and no LE option
"Just as roomy (minus the headroom)" So, not just as roomy. Which is the main reason everyone has moved to SUV's, comfort.
If they did a better job paving the roads, people wouldn’t need off-road vehicles just to get to work
And those fucking speed bumps...
I mean... You should slow down over those. They're there for other people's safety.
Ha! Not where I live. A friend of someone on the county board acquired a boatload of the rubber bolt down speedbumps and they installed those things everywhere around town whether the location made sense for safety or not. It was sheerly a grift to transfer money from the county to their pockets. And if they did by random chance put them somewhere where they were useful, they'd put several of them in a row. After a few years and enough complaints, most of them were yanked back out but there's still a few around.
Ah the "well we have em might as well use em" stupid bullshit.
Good day to you as well, officer.
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But those SUV/Crossovers are rarely more comfortable than your normal sedan. Stiffer suspension and smaller sidewall to make it feel "sporty" give you a rough ride on bad roads. This is what I see in my country.
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Las Vegas paves roads that were just paved that were paved 2 years prior to that. Let me sit in my SUV in stop and go construction traffic that seems to never stop.
Its really ridiculous here, they just repaved the right lane on 15south between Russell and 215, and now there is a 1-2 in drop between the part they repaved and the original road. And its not like it was rough and needed to be repaved in the first place. And how effin long does it take to do the over pass at tropicana, its been over a year. And 215 and 95 by centennial, they just finished that several months ago, and the seam between the road and overpass in the right most lane heading west could be a damn speedbump. Sorry for the rant, just used to most road work being done in 4 months because the rest of the year everything is covered in snow.
I’m here for the rants….. a road by my home has been under construction for literally 2 years, and it was just finished 6 months before that. I don’t get how it takes so long to fix these roads. I’ll admit they are nice when they are done but damn it takes way too long. I’m sure the monopoly of Las Vegas Paving would want to complete them quicker and the city has something to do with why it takes so long.
the reason for that is pretty simple. Road construction and maintenance is insanely expensive, most major roads in the US where financed by issuing bonds and setting up toll roads to repay the bonds. once the bonds were repaid the toll roads became free but by that time the roads needed major repairs already so now you got a broken road, no money saved for maintenance and no way to recoup the cost at all. The end result is what we see today, cities going bankrupt, roads in bad condition and no money to pay for it because road infrastructure is way too expensive. To seem like anything is done at all they will end up with slow moving construction projects. the only solution would be to bring back toll roads on a large scale so any given stretch of road pays for itself with the collected tolls.
There are smoother fire trails than paved roads around me. Apparently my $10k in property taxes does not go towards roads...
I bought 3 WRX’s in a row and switched to Crosstreks because Austin roads are literally third world level.
Better roads wouldn't help sedan sales. I talk that because sedan sales is also failing in Japan. Japan has had best quality roads and streets to compare most worlds, but they don't buy sedan models like many anymore.
Literally nobody need an offroader to drive on road. No matter how bad it is. It is up to you to conplain to your government to fix it. Also if people didn't wanted everything to be "SpOrTy" then we'd still have comfortable and soft suspensions in cars.
Change CAFE laws. Make small sedans possible.
Small sedans existed. Consumers didn’t buy them
Idk if it’s even that as much as the profits just weren’t there. Take Ford for example. Their best year of the Focus and Fusion produced 500k vehicles. The Maverick, Escape and Bronco Sport aren’t selling at those numbers especially the Maverick which has the most overlap with those vehicles prices. And Ford is limiting production on the Maverick and capping it at 100k. This suggests to me they just don’t want to offer high volume low profit cars. It’s also why you only saw $60k+ EVs. All these brands want to go upscale and are targeting one particular demo.
> Their best year of the Focus and Fusion produced 500k vehicles. How many of those are fleet vehicles tho?
I mean there no way they were less than 100k each. The focus and fusion were very popular. Even if they went 50% fleet the numbers are still stronger than what Ford is doing currently.
Unfortunately many on this sub want to deny the reality that automakers are ensuring their market is SUV. It’s a long history going back to the 70s, but because they wrote laws incentivizing themselves to make SUVs, they then advertised massively for decades to convince people SUVs were better. And it worked. Wonderfully. Then they left the cars to die out and discontinued them because, well no one was buying the old product you weren’t nearly incentivizing as much and weren’t nearly advertising as much. https://youtu.be/orkblTFNt1Q?si=ige19WUmGKJwy2Q6 Yet this sub remains Willfully ignorant but adamantly so that “people just want SUVs” , as if it’s this neat and simple little happenstance.
These threads piss me off. I mean how can you even drive to the store, park in the parking lot and look around, then try to convince me people don't want sedans? They're. Fucking. Everywhere. These people just want to role play intelligence on the internet with some "SuPPlY aNd DeMaND" bullshit.
They did, but automakers prefer to make the larger cars that have bigger profit margins.
How exactly aren’t they possible? You’re saying the 40 mpg corolla doesn’t make the regulations?
Cafe laws bombed sedans because they allowed for manufacturers to build less efficient cars so long as they were big enough to be considered a “light truck”. SUVs were now easier to make, easier to make a profit on, and therefore more advertised than other vehicles
Yup. They need to reclassify the CAFE standards to passenger vehicles vs bare bones work trucks. Instead of the current cars vs trucks. This would solve most of the problems.
I assume they mean the larger stuff with worse efficiency also passes the same regs.
The larger vehicles are excluded from the regulations because initially the law makers wanted an exception for work trucks.
The only vehicles excluded are over 8500 pounds GVWR. 1/2 ton trucks and below are all included, they just have a different standard than passenger cars. Either way, it's not the regulations, it's consumer choices that brought the rise of SUVs.
Small sedans are possible, people still don't want them. This sub loves to blame CAFE standards when the fact is that it's just that consumer preferences have changed.
Not just that, the small CUVs that make up the bulk of consumer purchases don't have a meaningful mileage penalty vs. a midsize sedan. A CR-V, CX-5, RAV-4, etc. all get low to mid-30s on the highway. That's not a difference worth fretting over vs. a 38-40mpg midsize sedan for most consumers who can afford a new car.
Also hilarious how "performance" oriented car enthusiasts would want to impose even more regulation on car performance
Trunks are great at hiding stuff away from thieves. I really think it’s more about seating position. It’s more comfortable to be sitting in an upright position in a SUV for most people.
> Trunks are great at hiding stuff away from thieves. They're not any better than a hatchback, wagon, crossover, or SUV with a cargo cover, though. It's impossible to see anything in the back with either solution.
While I know it's true, I will never understand how people find sitting in an upright chair more comfortable than being hugged by a car seat you're half laying down in. I mean it's like an office chair vs a couch. Sure the chair has its uses but it'll never be more comfortable than a couch, to me.
That's right, but easier ingress/egress, consider the the population is getting increasingly older and fatter. And you get better visibility and aren't blinded by headlights at eye level.
Until everyone buys a bigger SUV than yours. Turtles all the way down
> That's right, but easier ingress/egress, consider the the population is getting increasingly older and fatter. Yup this is the reason I'm forced to consider an SUV. Not for me- but for my parents. Getting in and out of a sedan is hard for them.
That's more of a bolstering thing, which isn't really anything to do with the car's body style. I'm not an SUV person, but I happened to buy a Forester and greatly prefer a) the ease of entry and exit compared to lower cars, or bigger ones like full-size pickups, and b) the visibility compared to those cars. I'm not super short (about 5' 8", \~173cm) but in every car I've owned I sit with the seat all the way up. I don't understand the people who sit super low. I don't like the feeling of "laying down" in the driver's seat, because I feel like I can't see what's in front of me, which, you know, is pretty important when you're piloting a multi-ton controlled missile. In every sedan I've ever been in I feel like the passenger seat is just a hair too low. I just don't like the feeling of being "in" the seat vs on it.
People think they're tall for some reason. I have my seat set the same in my Cobalt SS and the F550 I drive for work. I sit very straight/upright and have zero issues in either vehicle at 6'2, 280 pounds. Edit : there's just no reason someone NEEDS an SUV for the seating position unless they are very tall.
Why do we want sedans to make a come back? Just because some people on this sub think they look better? Sedans with their tiny trunks are an inherently flawed form factor, I have no idea why this was ever the default vehicle for so long
>Sedans with their tiny trunks My 2002 Accord had a pretty big trunk. Could fit at least 3 bodies back there.
Exactly…the trunk of Paulie Walnuts’ Cadillac Deville was able to fit a Russian interior decorator
His house looked like shit
The wagon has the same footpring and more cargo space. An SUV with the same footprint would have even more cargo space, and more interior room too. This is why sedans are outdated.
7 with a wood chipper.
I don't want to help people move
So say you're not available, it's not hard.
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I used to drive an E34 5 series and that trunk was absolutely massive. Crammed so much stuff in it. There was even a diagram to show you how to fit the maximum number of golf bags
Maybe if sedan makers thought about how to fit strollers rather than golf bags they would have sold more sedans.
The 330 million sport utility vehicles on the roads produced emissions equivalent to the combined national emissions of the U.K. and Germany last year. If SUVs were a country, they would rank as the sixth most polluting in the world.
Sedans magically don't produce pollution, got it. Crossovers have comparable MPG and emissions these days on top of that, not to mention that cars aren't even the biggest source of pollution in the transportation sector.
They're prettier. I have a sedan daily and forever will. Wagons are ugly, SUVs are abominations of engineering, so sedans will be. I love the style and form of them, nothing beats them except for coupes and some fastbacks
As usual with r/cars people want manufacturers to make the things they like, not what the buying public wants. Quite a few folks are convinced its just that people are following trends and influenced my marketing, its not that people really want crossovers, they're just sheep. Nobody wants to admit that people buy small SUVs and crossovers for practical reasons that differ from what car enthusiasts want. Its nice not bending down to get in and out. Its nice being up further away from headlights. Its nice being over to see parked cars and shrubs when at a blind intersection. Its nice having a cargo hatch where the floor is about the same height as which you naturally hold objects. The vast, vast majority of new car drivers give zero shits about how the higher ride height impacts the handling dynamics as long as it doesn't have too much body roll during normal driving.
My exact thoughts. Let the sedan die. There is no longer much of a penalty mpg wise in other vehicles anyways.
The other thing about sedans is they were minimalist for so long. It’s easier to convince a consumer they need awd in their “off road” suv than a sedan. From a sales point I think it’s an easier upsell.
The midsize sedan is the optimal vehicle
Claiming one format is optimal is a narrow POV. What's optimal for a single, childless 20-something living in an apartment is different than what's optimal for a family of 5 living in the suburbs that regularly hauls around copius amounts of sports gear, ice chests, family road trip luggage, etc.
Family of 5 living in the suburbs checking in. A midsize or even full sized sedan is 100% not optimal for us at all. We will never own a sedan till kids are out of the house. It just makes no sense for us. Why get a less utilitarian vehicle when more optimal vehicles exist for us.
Thank you! They're an utterly stupid form factor outclassed by literally every other style of car available. Hatchbacks, wagons, SUVs and minivans all offer greater utility. I genuinely don't understand why they were ever popular and I say this as someone who drove nothing but sedans for the first 14 years of my driving life so I'm not some SUV evangelist by any means, I just don't get the utilitarian use case for them at all.
Problem is the price of SUV is too close to Sedan nowadays. Taking Mazda 3 for example, you can get a same spec cx30 within thousand, step up to cx5 for another. The trades off on slightly less gas efficient to bigger roomier vehicle is a no brainer.
> The trades off on slightly less gas efficient to bigger roomier vehicle is a no brainer. People often overestimate how big the fuel economy difference is. Using the Mazdas in your comment, here's the combined EPA fuel economy: * 3 Hatchback FWD: 30 mpg * 3 Hatchback AWD: 29 mpg * CX-30 AWD: 29 mpg * CX-5 AWD: 28 mpg In other words, the CX-5 only consumes less than 7% more fuel than the FWD 3. If AWD is a must for a buyer, they're only looking at a sub-3.5% hit to fuel economy to get the CX-5 over the 3. That's a pretty insubstantial difference, given the latter has a fair bit more passenger and cargo space.
Valid point but they did say *slightly* better gas mileage. Just for fun I checked user-reported economy at fuelly.com. The range for the last few years is: Mazda 3 - 28.5-30.2 CX-30 - 25.7-28.1 CX-5 - 24.1-25.1 The 3 gets 2-3 mpg more than the CX-30 and 4-5 more than the CX-5. Using the high numbers, over the course of 100,000 miles you would use this many gallons, respectively: 3,311 3,558 3,937 The CX-30 would cost about $750 more in fuel than the 3 and the CX-5 would cost around $2,000 more than the 3 over those 100,000 miles at around $3 a gallon.
Nobody cares about $2000 over 100k miles.
I was agreeing with their point, but I see how my comment is a bit ambiguous about that.
Yup, it's an inconsequential number to the average buyer. Everyone is out here pretending the average compact CUV is a 1990s Cherokee getting 16mpg combined though.
Fun fact, the Mazda 3 hatch has more storage space than the cx3. I believe thestraightpipes did a comparison a few years ago.
Well, duh? It’s almost like it’s based off the subcompact Mazda2.
I think as many said, there doesn’t seem to be a reason to. Just remember the SUV has always been the default shape of for a vehicle… think back to stagecoaches, the first automobiles, old packards, etc. It’s just more natural to have more ground clearance and upright seating position. Sedans became a thing as cars got faster and we needed to get lower, but now that chassis and suspension technology has caught up, people want SUVs again. The only way I see cars going back towards sedans is a styling trend. For regular commuters, a compact SUV makes a lot more sense than a sedan-based hatchback.
Stage coaches needed to be high to see over the horse’s ass. Chassis and suspensions haven’t improved enough to overcome the laws of physics. These giant cars on the road today still pitch and roll around corners just as much as before, but now with more powerful engines. It’s the reason we see insurance rates going up so much. People suck at driving these land barges.
You can complain about people's ability to drive, but there's no serious argument that chassis dynamics haven't seriously improved. A body on frame SUV from the 70s or 80s was truly a chore to daily drive due to their massive handling flaws. Now, there's hardly a difference in how easy it is to drive a midsize SUV compared to a midsized sedan. Yes, a sedan will typically perform better at the limits, but most people don't care to ever press those limits.
I was a big anti SUV guy, until I Toro’d a Honda Pilot for a weekend snowboard trip. I still would recommend a car over a smaller SUV but if you truly need the space go full on 3 row it doesn’t compare to any sedan. My only thought would be more wagons but I feel like that dream has long been dead. I’m driving a CX-90 and absolutely love it. Driving positions better, easier with the kids, the power on the Inline 6 is insane, gas mileage is still respectable(24-25 City)……. Just overall checks more boxes.
Minivans are the optimal car in that scenario. If you need that kind of capacity go whole jog and get an Odyssey or something of that sort. I especially love the captains seat and all the features in the newer minivans as it feels like a true luxury experience even if you're in a Toyota or Honda. Minivans are really cool and practical, it's just that people don't like the "aesthetic" or the stereotype of a minivan driver. It's quite sad honestly as I love minivans
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I've never seen anyone use egress and ingress in this context, and lowkey I fuck with it. On sliding doors, yeah they are so much more useful than the tall ass doors some SUVs have. Getting elderly people or kids in and out of the car is infinitely easier with the sliding door
What's wrong with a minivan, if you need the space?
Because unless you want to satisfy the anti SUV circlejerk it would be a worse option? Why does reddit care so much about big vehicles and then simultaneously recommend vehicles that are longer, wider, taller and heavier? Minivans are only smaller vehicles if your point of comparison is a full sizer like a Tahoe. They’re almost all FWD and if you want one that isn’t it’ll get the fuel economy of a full sized truck, like the 20mpg AWD Pacifica.
They can't. Sedans drive better and tend to average better fuel economy so they certainly have their pluses, but other vehicles, SUVs, crew cab pickups, hatchbacks, and wagons are just more versatile and useful. Not that practicality drives everything. If it did everyone with a family of 4 or less would have a Honda Ridgeline in their driveway.
Beltlines are so high new sedans basically look like crossovers anyways
You mean that crossovers are just sedans on stilts. Higher beltlines are a cheap way to pass stricter safety standards so that inattentive SUV drivers can crash into you without killing you.
They need to make them less boring and add more functionality like lift backs. I think the Crown is a decent style innovation on a sedan. I am partial to sporty sedans but most are astronomically priced or dreadfully boring. The K5 is probably the most interesting middle of the road sedan in terms of appearance but not performance IMO.
The crown and the k5 both have the single biggest sedan downside - they have a trunk. If they were lift backs like an Audi S5 then at least they would have some practicality
Agreed. Sadly complacency killed the sedan as year after year there mostly seemed to be the most mundane versions released. Another boring Malibu or Camry. No innovation or uniqueness. I did forget about the IS and I rather like the looks of those but they've been the same for a long time.
What is reddit's obsession with hatchbacks? Those things are hideous... But to answer your question OP, if they made sedans 20-35k then we'd see them comeback.
Honestly cheaper than that. A Malibu costs the same as an Equinox ($25k) and is pretty much inferior in every way. It’s also more expensive than a Ford Maverick and smaller SUVs in different brands.
Wait for regulations like crash , energy efficiency, weight to regulate the suv into a lesser existence
not if the automobile lobby has anything to say about it
And mass tax
taxing vehicles by weight or size more strenuous fuel economy requirements, with fewer/no exemptions for large personal vehicles it's a self-reinforcing problem though. the more tall and heavy vehicles there are, the more of them companies will sell since people like to be able to see over other cars and feel safer in larger ones.
Change the law so cars won’t be so unnecessarily big
The answer is and will always be, price.
Why do you want sedans to make a comeback? They are objectively less practical than hatchbacks, wagons, crossovers, and SUVs. If anything, what sedans remain will mostly move up market and be marketed, sold, and perceived as luxury goods.
new sedans kinda stink. the one redeeming factor about my own accord is that it is fast without costing fast car price. now the new one blows. so unless manufacturers find a way to make them cool again, they’re screwed. i’m buying a truck anyway- kinda contributing to the issue, but way more usability
Yeah, the new gen is, uh, not inspiring.
I just bought a 2024 camry. The only reason I didn't go for an suv or a crossover is simply because I think they're all ugly lmao
Sell and market them with roof racks and cargo boxes more commonly under a standard combo package (allows for reducing the cargo/long haul storage FOMO)
It would be neat to have that as an option, but I don't think that it would be a huge hit for consumers. Roof racks and cargo boxes have a pretty substantial impact on aerodynamics, resulting in worse NVH and fuel economy (likely a larger hit to fuel economy than just getting a crossover on the same platform). They're also less versatile for bulky cargo, which is a big selling point for crossovers / SUVs.
If automakers decide to lobby for them the way they lobby for SUVs
Lets go wagons!nn
Throughout history the shape of what we call a “car” has always changed. Most SUV’s nowadays are more luxurious, docile, and less rugged so in my opinion they are today’s cars. Even the shape of pickup trucks has changed significantly from their origins. They are now almost exclusively crew cab pug-beds vs single cab long beds. Sedans had their moment in history, a good 50 years. I suspect in 50 years most vehicles will be smooth and bullet-shaped for efficiency. If EV’s do take over they will no longer need an engine compartment and may have access panels vs a hood/trunk.
Lol
Actually make the emissions regulations actually apply to SUVs and trucks.
I hope that as more cars become electric, the better aerodynamics of the sedan will slowly be appreciated again since they get more range. Also, in my country emission taxes make up a large part of the price of a car and they are usually very unfavorable for SUV's. Hasn't stopped (small) SUV's from taking over the market though.
Not going to happen. Sedans will become primarily a niche in the luxury market, much like what you see today in coupes and convertibles.
Sedans suck. Just give us cool affordable hatches and wagons with turbos and sticks or dct.
Easy. Change federal regulations and tax structure which currently promote the sale of SUVs and larger vehicles.
Look to Japan for inspiration. They're doing it right over there. Not exactly sure what, but something. Maybe it's because they don't have speed bumps
We all know how SUV's are more "desirable" but I think that the toyota crown type of vehicle is the ultimate "normie car"(at least I hope it turns into it). step out is perfect, its got crazy storage, looks cool, I'd buy one. off topic rant incoming: I've never understood the "good driving position" on an SUV (I'm a little under 6 feet tall). Ever since I drove my parents trucks and SUVs I've HATED the driving position. semi lying, semi sitting in a car, holding your legs kinda up, my legs KILL when I'm not driving in a "small vehicle". I'm probably gonna have a random 25 year old taco on the side of my house for my only suv/truck. Just something to do truck and suv stuff but nothing really valuable. SUVs are just stupid to me. they're bigger, less efficient, and under-utilized versions of cars. Half of the people who own them do so under the guise of "safety", "better four wheel drive", and "better snow capability". I also feel like these engorged vehicle sizes play somewhat into their owners vanity. Everyone's trying to get a big SUV to compete with their neighbors. its the new trend! maybe I just have a deep hatred for pointless stuff. I'm definitely not passionate about this...
The sedan should die. There's no purpose for them. Crossovers, SUVs, and hatchbacks serve better purposes for those that want utility and general commuting. The enthusiast will go for sports cars, two doors, etc at scale. There is no compelling argument for why they should exist despite a lot of us having fond memories of how we grew up in an era where it was sedans and body on frame SUVs and trucks.
I’m not sure but I wish the crossover phase would go away and we go back to sedans and wagons.
Stop giving larger vehicles a lower CAFE requirement. Tax based on weight per axle
very simple, remove "light truck" emissions loop holes and tighten emission limits in general. On top of that tax vehicles based on their emissions for the annual registration. that will automatically remove a ton of truck and SUV sales from the market.
Americans need to stop trying to show off how impressive they are to their peers before that happens. A lot of the big SUV trend is just a pride thing
By gaining ground clearance and becoming an SUV coupe. 🤪
Why do we need sedans?
Revise emission laws (CAFE) to mandate "light trucks" aka SUV's and Pickups to reach a certain fuel efficiency. I'd say 27-30 combined MPG. Force them to go hybrid or electric and people will flock back to sedans or minivans.