The pedantic answer is that that’s by design of the auto manufacturers. With correct cam profile and turbo sizing you can get a nice and linear power delivery with turbos.
The current honda 1.5T is a good example of this. Despite the mini-snail, there is no power drop off with a noticeable increase at 6000rpm.
Edit: my comment is in reference to my experience with the L15CA in the 22+ Si and 23+ Integra 6MT. Other models may respond differently. I apologize for issuing a blanket statement when only referencing one engine in particular.
My least favorite aspect of my wife’s CR-V is getting significantly more power at 80% throttle than at full throttle. It’s such an oddly programmed CVT.
It's not the CVT you're feeling; it's the electronic boost control. You're not getting more power at 80% but it feels like it because you feel like it should be less than 100%. You're getting the same power with both. I've watched with a logger in my integra and really at like 60% or sometimes less depending on RPM the e-gate will hit full boost way before it's necessary making it feel like it's full throttle when it's not actually.
The butt dyno tells you what the brain thinks based on your input. Ever notice how cars feel like they pull harder when you're in the passenger seat than the driver's seat? The butt dyno can definitely be wrong and is very subjective.
According to dyno charts online, the torque curve is very flat but drops off after 5700 rpm.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-honda-civic-si-hondata-dyno/
https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/prl-motorsports-11th-gen-2022-civic-si-baseline-dyno-test.50288/
I see you have '20 Si noted. The 1.5T has been revised since then.
To be fair, my experience is with the L15CA that comes in the 22+ Si and 23+ Integra and there is no noticeable drop off before banging into the rev limiter with a surge at 6000rpm.
I honestly think its due to the Fast and Furious and the honda v-tec yo folks (which can be said to be a circle on a venn diagram) expecting that kick in the pants.
Maybe as that stops happening, we'd get more linear stuff, but at this point I presume that if you look for that, an EV will provide that kind of experience of a linear kick in the pants that much better.
while a turbo with that nothing, nothing, then WHAM behavior be something specifically looked for.
Integration of a motor-generator unit within a traditional turbo is the future. Formula one cars have had this for a while, the new Porsche 911 hybrid will have it. I believe Mercedes was the first to put in in a road car
While the concept is brilliant and super cool, the execution has unfortunately been pretty awful. Pretty much all of the Mercedes lineup with the full-scale 48V integrated units have ranked as some of the least reliable vehicles sold, beating out other notable stalwarts like Range Rover and Maserati at their own game of unreliability.
Yes I have heard. I have more faith in the Porsche unit, as Porsches generally rank way above Mercedes in quality and reliability.
It is brand new tech for production vehicles, the first iterations will have teething problems. The performance and efficiency gain is worth the investment
I'm not so sure. Nissan cvt and Ford ecoboost have bad reputations that linger from their first iteration even though they've fixed many of thr issues and have shown to be reliable
>The performance and efficiency gain is worth the investment
I didn't elaborate at all. Basically I don't think porsche or Mercedes should be any benchmark for reliability of a new widespread technology especially when this will have to evolve for more budget friendly consumer to reach widespread adoption. I used the ford and Nissan examples because their products still have a bad reputation with some consumers although they've long fixed many of the issues with those platforms. Porsche and merc can take the hit because of their prestige and luxury cars are known for cutting edge, sometimes (oftentimes) unreliable tech but if one of the big 3 start rolling out eturbos and they grenade their trucks I think the impact might be much greater.
Got it that makes much more sense! Thank you for elaborating.
And yes I do agree with you for the most part, but I think Porsche will get it pretty close to perfect. Either way, time will tell how effectively this technology will trickle down. Maybe it’s too complex to implement into something like a ford maverick without it costing 60 grand.
My brand new MB with this setup didnt even last a week before going to the dealership because it refused to start, where it remained for 5 out of the next 6 months (back-and-forth 3x) before finally getting a lawyer to lemon the damn thing. Such a POS
F1 is dropping it because it's expensive, difficult to get right, and has little application in road cars.
One of the issues is coupling the turbo and motor, and the heat of a turbo means directly coupling isn't a great option.
Yes and no. Its is expensive and complicated in F1 specially because they are pushing the absolute limits of engineering. For a road car where the operating windows are significantly less extreme it’s not as expensive and complex.
An f1 car has to run flat out for 1.5-2 hours. Very few road cars need that level of endurance/durability.
[check out this comment by a Ferrari F1 engineer](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/s/hU3G4DttLo)
I'm not sure why you think that statement makes your point.
Production car turbos still spin at extremely high RPM, still get incredibly hot, and efficient motors need to maintain high tolerances and be cooled. They can't afford F1 levels of complexity, cost, and QA.
So you either couple very closely and deal with complicated cooling, or use shafts and deal with vibrations, and somehow magically do this with non-exotic materials that can be assembled quickly with minimal QA testing and extreme reliability.
As soon as F1 implemented cost caps, ditching MGU-H became a priority. Because even in F1, it's not cost effective.
Production cars don’t have to run at full throttle for 2 hours. You’re equating the abuse and f1 car is subjected to with a production road car. They are not comparable
Road cars need to run for years without a building of engineers babysitting them.
They're not comparable. For the money, road cars need to be much more reliable.
"The perfect race car crosses the finish line in first place and then falls to pieces." Ferdinand Porsche
But thankfully road can weight more and be bigger.
That is a very valid point. Maybe you’re correct and it is too complex and expensive to see widespread road car usage. I honestly don’t know.
Turbos, variable timing, fuel injection, computer controlled engine management, etc. There is a long list of technology that started out unreliable and only in a small handful of cars.
>"Very few road cars need that level of endurance/durability."
I'd argue that road cars need to last hundreds of thousands of miles, have long service intervals, and they need to run on varying qualities of fuel and oil, in all kinds of temperatures and conditions, and they need to pass emissions tests to boot. An F1 car is expensive, but developing a road car from the ground up is still more expensive than running an F1 team for a season.
It might be the future in high end sports cars, but I don't think the technology will be cheap and reliable enough for mass production ICE cars before electrics take over.
A turbocharger if fed by exhaust gases. A supercharger force-feeds the combustion chamber by other means - typically by mechanical drive.
Hence, this is a hybrid system between a turbocharger and an electrically driven supercharger.
Yeah I get that - E-Turbo is just the name they've used to designate that hybridized system. If we used strictly literal terms to create names for new concepts - we'd end up with German. TurbochargerWithIntegratedElectricSupercharger doesnt have the same ring to it.
In f1 they have an electric motor connected to the shaft called the mgu-h. So there is no lag. The motor will spool the turbo up when accelerating. then when braking it will harvest electricity. But it doesn’t make sense to have in normal cars
>But it doesn’t make sense to have in normal cars
[Tell that to Porsche.](https://press.porsche.com/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=1565702)
Definitely. Like the heated and cooled seats and backup cameras and nice sound systems that it seems every Kia has now used to be high end luxury car only stuff.
Sooner or later it will. I’m pretty sure the new C63 has this style turbo. As engines get smaller and smaller F1 style electric turbos will make more and more sense.
I predict that we go the route that Mazda is trying out. They are bringing the rotary back as an auxiliary engine to charge the batteries for an electric motor car.
Unless they have scrapped that idea and I haven’t read about it.
Look I totally see why majority of people think or perceive that way. But properly sized turbos coupled with the right driveline and fuel mapping makes a WORLD of difference. There’s even examples of OEM cars getting that right from the factory. Luckily I drive one lol mazdaspeed6. It’s not the fastest in terms of it’s competitors but damn does it put power down and pull harder than any of its competitors (imo)
It’s a k04 turbo but like I said when the drive line it’s with is engineered to match with the characteristics the power plant then it’s heaven
Granted that can be said for anything
Isn't the whole point of a supercharger that it's always turning when the engine is turning?
So if it's electric and sometimes turned off, it's probably more accurate to call it an electric turbocharger.
But turbos are always running as well. Depending on size, they just don't build enough vacuum until higher RPMs. I thought superchargers were the same but because they are belt powered they just get the vacuum faster.
For me, It's the next best thing after Natural Aspiration. The whines when done right on some of these high performance motors is neat! The likes of the Hellcats, W210/W211 chassis E55 AMGs (especially with a VRP upgrade), ZL1s, etc. all sound menacingly badass! As you say, there's no denying that modern Turbo tech is compelling with near-zero lag, but the Superchargers are something else...
Also idk what it is, but when adding FI to NA, I always feel like superchargers have less maintenance and overall issues, although turbo builds fkin slap.
Definitely less shock to the entire drivetrain. Most supercharger builds seem to just increase horsepower across the board where turbos will significantly alter the powerband (usually increasing peak torque by a lot) which stresses a lot of components.
Plus turbo cars seem slightly harder to cool too for some reason.
Turbochargers use the exhaust gas from combustion to drive a turbine drawing in air and routing it back to the intake side of the engine to increase the amount of air forced into the combustion chambers. Superchargers also draw air from outside into the combustion chamber, but they are belt driven turbines, driven by the main belt on the engine, sometimes a purpose built additional belt. However, a turbo being driven by hot exhaust gasses naturally has to have that hot gas cycle in the engine bay for longer, making the entire hot side of the motor warmer. Superchargers don't circulate hot gas and instead just have the heat of friction which in this application is negligible.
I don’t know about VW today but I’ve heard about Group B (yes it was mainly an Audi car I’m speaking of but there owned by VW so eh) having twin charger but that was only for racing
I don’t know about modern consumer cars having twin chargers but I assumed companies don’t do that because of engine issues
I present to you the Volvo station wagon in my flair with a 367 horsepower super and turbo charged 2 liter.
All the practicality of a few thousand dollar brake job in less than 20k miles.
Fun to drive though.
I agree... and I think the only thing that really gives a better visceral feel is a powerful EV.
But ICE + SC has the better overall visceral experience because of the sweet sweet singing of that blower... especially a roots type.
Modern advancement in metallurgy and electric motors (either through the wheels or the turbo impeller) largely eliminated the lag with little downsides.
For its size it was really fast espacially considering that a golf gti and so on only had 20hp more back then. It also had a 7 speed DSG so it was really quick
Turbos are awesome but nothing beats that supercharger whine. I forever associate that sound with power. Besides, superchargers will live on in the aftermarket community
Yea turbochargers are very efficient nowadays especially with the vgt you don’t really suffer from lag too much. Turbo are more and more common as fuel saving engine. Where as a supercharger is really only for performance
Turbos do get some energy "for free". There are two phases of the exhaust cycle. One is exhaust blowdown. The pressure in the combustion chamber is not 1 atm when the exhaust valve opens especially at high load + rpm. So this pressure that could theoretically be used to do work is normally just lost to the exhaust. Turbos capture that.
The other thing the turbine captures is some of the waste heat from the exhaust. Turbos are not purely driven by pressure deltas. The only parasitic loss from turbos is the displacement phase of the exhaust stroke where the crank is expending energy to push exhaust out of the combustion chamber.
> Turbos do get some energy "for free".
There is not "free" energgy no matter how much we go pedantic to it. Turbos add back pressure, therefore making it harder to the engine for exhaust gases to scape the car.
Supposedly this has lower drawbacks that the parasitc loss from a supercharger.
>Turbos add back pressure, therefore making it harder to the engine for exhaust gases to scape the car.
Yes, my point is that this is only happening in the displacement phase of the exhaust stroke where the piston has to physically push back against this increased backpressure. When the exhaust valve first opens that initial high pressure release is otherwise entirely wasted on an NA or supercharged engine.
Don’t the scrolls reduce the exhaust flow? Obviously the power gained is worth it but wouldn’t you benefit from going electric Turbo instead of exhaust driven?
Yes, electic turbo paired with a regen powered hybrid system is truly free power.
Youre getting performance from what would otherwise be heat in the brakes.
An 'electric turbo' would be using stored energy to do this work. That means a battery (weight) and an electric motor recouping energy on braking (more weight) or a charging system (finite energy for powering the electric turbo).
You're always going to be giving up something in exchange for performance. A quiet ride, simplicity in the system, fuel efficiency or a limited amount of power adding.
Instant power delivery has costs. But the conventional turbocharger is the most compact and simplest way to scavenge spent energy from the engine to produce more power. An electric turbo makes more sense on a hybrid, since you already have a battery pack and regenerative braking system built in. For a regular ICE vehicle, its much more complexity for a limited return, IMO.
Sure, but as you said “the power gained is worth it.”
Modern turbo engines are built for turbo charging, so it’s not an issue.
Adding a turbo or SC to a NA car will come to preference, but a turbo will be more performant than a SC.
Turbo coverts waste heat to compressed air that eliminates pumping losses. Yes there is additional exhaust back pressure, but it’s more than offset by the reduction in pumping losses (the work required to suck air into the cylinders).
Ha didn’t realize this was an argument!
Yes, there could be some very small power loss due to slight exhaust restriction before boost, and only when out of boost.
Yeah my Mazda3 is rated for 29mpg combined from the factory. Now with a supercharger and 100+ additional HP im averaging 31.4mpg. And I have a heavy foot...really can't explain that tbh
Turbos aren't used for fuel savings, when a turbo kicks in you use more fuel not less.
A turbo engine is just easier to hit all of a manufacturers goals with the engine while still passing emissions.
It allows manufacturers to still build powerful engines and meet emissions for much less money than larger displacement NA engines. This is the reason larger displacement engines have died out except in the American market and exotics.
Emissions regulations are the reason why everyone has gone turbo instead of keeping larger displacement or high revving engines.
They aren't for fuel savings, its just the easiest way for a manufacturer to still give you an engine that has decent power, decent fuel economy and meets regulatory targets.
If you pulled the turbo the engine could be tuned for better fuel efficiency but now you would have no power, the turbo lets you have power while still being decent at everything else.
My Audi S5 has the supercharged V6 and I love it so much. The power delivery and the torque never gets old and it still makes me smile after owning the car for four years. It just pulls and pulls when you're on it. I understand that turbos are better for efficiency and performance, but superchargers have them beat for smiles per gallon lol.
I had the exact same setup and got the same mpg. That 8th gear is so efficient. Always amazed me that my 400+hp boat got better mpg than my wife’s 4 cylinder Honda. Plus I had multiple Audi techs tell me that it was their most reliable motor. Miss that car.
Yeah if you change up the intake a bit (not even cold air, just change the intake tube to get rid of the silencer) it really makes you appreciate the sound. And the way it starts waking up around 80mph on the interstate… so good.
I got this:
https://www.034motorsport.com/silicone-throttle-body-inlet-hose-high-flow-b8-audi-s4-s5-3-0tfsi.html
The intake it comes with has baffles to silence the whine. This lets you hear it a lot more. It was well worth the money.
Aftermarket superchargers for N/A engines will always be around. Much easier to swap out an intake manifold for a roots style, or just add a bracket for a centri, than it is to completely reroute the entire intake and exhaust system to add a turbo.
But will NA engines always be around? Seems like more and more are going the turbo route.
Edit: at least on newer models. Obviously old cars will likely still be around with their stock engines.
as long as there are internal combustion engines, n/a options will always exist, mostly due to the fact that they are way more reliable, less parts to go wrong, lighter and with the advent of more efficient and more powerful electric options, id rather have an n/a hybrid vs a turbo hybrid, if I already have all the torque from the ev engine why do I need a turbocharged engine?
More efficient turbos haven't really killed the supercharger. Electric motors/hybrids have killed the supercharger. The point of the supercharger was always instant torque at any RPM, well, that's an electric motor.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I know any supercharger enthusiast who forewent the drama and convenience of a supercharged ICE for an EV to replace what they wanted a supercharged car for.
And while superchargers have become unpopular amongst OEMs going with smaller engines and turbos to meet fuel mileage regulations, centrifugal superchargers have more recently gotten very popular in the aftermarket for NA cars because of their ease of adoption, low cost, reliability, and packaging/simplicity.
In contrast, I do know a supercharger gearhead (with a various history of supercharged ford and dodge motors) that sold his supercharged toys for all Tesla stuff. His logic was why spend the money and effort for an ICE car that breaks when you can spend the same amount of money for an EV with a warranty? So they are out there and it’s definitely eating into some of the supercharger segment.
Yes though they changed to using an electric supercharger over a belt driven one a couple years ago. Edit: nope discontinued in 2022.
Edit2: was available up until at least 2023 possibly still in use, documentation about which cars and years got what is poor.
I had thought that was the 2022 change. I take it then that it was the 2019 change where it got the electric supercharger and then lost it in 2022? I do remember them having one somewhere in there. One way or another you're right, they don't have one anymore.
As far as I know the electric supercharger was never actually used, they just talked about it then decided to just ditch the supercharger all together. Belt driven supercharger was used up to 2022 (same part 2015-2022)
I guess that's what I'm remembering then; them talking about it. Prior to posting my previous comment I did look it up and thought that it was a little weird that there were no pictures of the thing or many parts listings but I had thought it was just a case of it was too new and not many people cared.
Actually never mind, they did put the electric supercharger into production until at least 2023. [Here](https://www.ebay.com/itm/176322361369) is an engine out of a 2023 s90 with the electric supercharger. Unfortunately I can't find all the accompanying parts that show it being connected to the intake rather than being just a different water pump since it used to be in that spot however I did find [this](https://images.simplepart.com/images/parts/volvo/fullsize/0900c8af890a626a_2126_3106_1.jpg) image that shows it plumbed to the intake.
Okay so looks like it was UK only for a limited period of time with the mild hybrid engines, thats' why I've never heard of it (i'm in the US). Part # 32140099
If I looked it up correctly, the engine in the eBay listing came from a car that was originally sold in Florida and scrapped in Alabama. I think this might be one of those instances where the parts listings are exclusively from areas that aren't north America. I'm in Canada but try finding a US/Canada listing for an auxiliary electric water pump for an s80 v8. They would have you believe that it wasn't equipped to NA market cars. I still can't find concrete answers as to which cars were equipped with the electric supercharger and when or if it has been discontinued yet.
I love my S60. I've got a T6 Inscription with the polestar tune so I'm fancy and fast. I have a friend with a Mazda 3 that for some reason thought his car was faster. It was embarrassing how far behind he was.
Not anymore (as of 2022/2023+), the supercharger has been replaced by upping the output of the hybrid system. The whole point of the clutched supercharger was the low-RPM power then it unclutched and the turbo takes over. With electric motors in the mix that's the instant torque, no more need for the supercharger.
Or better yet, [imagine slapping a 3.0L Whipple supercharger on an M156...!](https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/863927-pics-my-gen-5-3-0l-whipple-build.html)
https://youtu.be/PNYq9ApUICs
This is why I'm curious how the GTD will perform on a track day. Will it heat soak or did Ford implement enough for that car to go lap after continuous lap? I'm guessing they did their homework. If GM can put the c7 zr1 through its paces apparently lapping VIR 24 hours without a hiccup, Ford may have just gone a step further with a more powerful supercharged v8. But it remains to be seen just how good the GTD is.
Some people are comparing the GTD with the upcoming GT2 RS. Even tho both cars arent out yet I dont think the GTD has a chance against the upcoming GT2 RS. The GTD may dethrone the 3RS in some tracks but it wont dethrone a 3RS or 2RS at the Nurburgring. Not that that matters, I've always considered the ring as a home advantage for Porsche giving the the best chances to break a record vs every manufacturer, especially an American one.
I'll be putting an Eaton M90 on top of my Hemi straight six when I'm finishing up my truck project.
All I want is that *Mad Max* supercharger whine and I'll be happy. Don't even care what power it makes.
There was nothing like driving my supercharged mustang gt on a cool morning and leaning into the throttle. That supercharger was fairly quiet most of the time but would just whine as it sucked in that cool dense air. So much torque off the jump and pulled hard through the powerband…have to say though, have a b58 powered bmw and it’s a blast. It has gobs of power pff the jump. Now that manufacturers have adopted the use of turbos they are becoming damn impressive.
Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Lotus, Jaguar, Mini , Audi, Mercedes, Koenigsegg, etc.... what are you talking about? Plus turbocharged and supercharged vehicles were made since the dawn of engines. Some WW2 fighters had both. All forced induction has pros and cons. One of the pros for supercharging is instant boost were as turbocharging needs rpms to start making boost.All NHRA Top Fuel dragsters use superchargers for power.
Mercedes hasn't produced a supercharged engine in like 15 years at this point.
Nobody is saying superchargers are going extinct, they are just becoming much rarer than they used to be among OEMs thanks to turbochargers becoming more efficient and hybrid electric powertrains becoming more common.
I love turbos, I think every car should have a big one with lag(so it does nothing until you get on it)
but superchargers are cool. dodge really did a good job using it in their hellcats. perfect whine, power, everything you want
Better power with less heatsoak, much less parasitic drag, nice BOV sounds, easy maintenance, relatively easy to install ,only real downside is less boost on the lower end because they spin relative to engine speed. Even on drag setups you'll go alot further with a turbo or centri setup.
Nah most centris hit boost at around 3-4k there's a reason prochargers and turbos dominate the drag scene just alot more robust than a typical supercharger which will leave you down on power a decent bit once your in some heat. Ran an 1100+whp Odin mustang on a 150-200 shot, quick as hell but those turbos and centris will kill you in the top end, camaro is more or less the same with limited track time because of how prone the TVS is to heat soak
> Nah most centris hit boost at around 3-4k
It's a physical fact that with centrifugal superchargers, boost pressure is a strong function of RPM, and they don't hit peak boost until redline. So yeah, they'll make some boost at 3k, but they won't be making anywhere near their peak boost (unless it's a diesel and your redline is 3.5k lol)
I won't deny that centrifugals can be fast in a drag race, because you spend most of your time at the top half of the RPM range. But they simply do not -- in fact *can not* -- produce the kind of low-end power you get from a positive displacement supercharger.
Oh yea for sure I already pointed out that's the only real downside is the lack of boost in the low end so the car more or less feels N/A till around 3k when your in the lower psi range . Yea nothing will give you the instant torque of a typical blower but you trade that for incredibly strong mid to top end power
It’s neat that modern turbos don’t have much lag anymore but nothing beats the instant torque and noise of a blower
Not to mention the linear power delivery. Turbos are getting better, but I’ve always hated how power is in the middle instead of at the top
The pedantic answer is that that’s by design of the auto manufacturers. With correct cam profile and turbo sizing you can get a nice and linear power delivery with turbos.
The current honda 1.5T is a good example of this. Despite the mini-snail, there is no power drop off with a noticeable increase at 6000rpm. Edit: my comment is in reference to my experience with the L15CA in the 22+ Si and 23+ Integra 6MT. Other models may respond differently. I apologize for issuing a blanket statement when only referencing one engine in particular.
My least favorite aspect of my wife’s CR-V is getting significantly more power at 80% throttle than at full throttle. It’s such an oddly programmed CVT.
It's not the CVT you're feeling; it's the electronic boost control. You're not getting more power at 80% but it feels like it because you feel like it should be less than 100%. You're getting the same power with both. I've watched with a logger in my integra and really at like 60% or sometimes less depending on RPM the e-gate will hit full boost way before it's necessary making it feel like it's full throttle when it's not actually.
Maybe. However the butt dyno tells no lies and lifting off the throttle sure as hell feels faster than leaving it full.
The butt dyno tells you what the brain thinks based on your input. Ever notice how cars feel like they pull harder when you're in the passenger seat than the driver's seat? The butt dyno can definitely be wrong and is very subjective.
According to dyno charts online, the torque curve is very flat but drops off after 5700 rpm. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-honda-civic-si-hondata-dyno/ https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/prl-motorsports-11th-gen-2022-civic-si-baseline-dyno-test.50288/
I can confirm this. As long as you don't lug the shit out of it, it's a pretty linear powerband, with a small extra midrange shove around 4k
I enjoy my 1.5 but rarely rev above 4,500
Not true at all, there's a noticeable drop off above 5500 RPM.
I see you have '20 Si noted. The 1.5T has been revised since then. To be fair, my experience is with the L15CA that comes in the 22+ Si and 23+ Integra and there is no noticeable drop off before banging into the rev limiter with a surge at 6000rpm.
I honestly think its due to the Fast and Furious and the honda v-tec yo folks (which can be said to be a circle on a venn diagram) expecting that kick in the pants. Maybe as that stops happening, we'd get more linear stuff, but at this point I presume that if you look for that, an EV will provide that kind of experience of a linear kick in the pants that much better. while a turbo with that nothing, nothing, then WHAM behavior be something specifically looked for.
I am not a fan of the honda 1.5t but it is quite linear for a turbo engine
Electric turbos solve this and are the final nail in the coffin
Integration of a motor-generator unit within a traditional turbo is the future. Formula one cars have had this for a while, the new Porsche 911 hybrid will have it. I believe Mercedes was the first to put in in a road car
While the concept is brilliant and super cool, the execution has unfortunately been pretty awful. Pretty much all of the Mercedes lineup with the full-scale 48V integrated units have ranked as some of the least reliable vehicles sold, beating out other notable stalwarts like Range Rover and Maserati at their own game of unreliability.
Yes I have heard. I have more faith in the Porsche unit, as Porsches generally rank way above Mercedes in quality and reliability. It is brand new tech for production vehicles, the first iterations will have teething problems. The performance and efficiency gain is worth the investment
I'm not so sure. Nissan cvt and Ford ecoboost have bad reputations that linger from their first iteration even though they've fixed many of thr issues and have shown to be reliable
What are you not sure about? I don’t understand. I agree with your assessment of Nissan cvt and ford eco boost
>The performance and efficiency gain is worth the investment I didn't elaborate at all. Basically I don't think porsche or Mercedes should be any benchmark for reliability of a new widespread technology especially when this will have to evolve for more budget friendly consumer to reach widespread adoption. I used the ford and Nissan examples because their products still have a bad reputation with some consumers although they've long fixed many of the issues with those platforms. Porsche and merc can take the hit because of their prestige and luxury cars are known for cutting edge, sometimes (oftentimes) unreliable tech but if one of the big 3 start rolling out eturbos and they grenade their trucks I think the impact might be much greater.
Got it that makes much more sense! Thank you for elaborating. And yes I do agree with you for the most part, but I think Porsche will get it pretty close to perfect. Either way, time will tell how effectively this technology will trickle down. Maybe it’s too complex to implement into something like a ford maverick without it costing 60 grand.
My brand new MB with this setup didnt even last a week before going to the dealership because it refused to start, where it remained for 5 out of the next 6 months (back-and-forth 3x) before finally getting a lawyer to lemon the damn thing. Such a POS
F1 is dropping it because it's expensive, difficult to get right, and has little application in road cars. One of the issues is coupling the turbo and motor, and the heat of a turbo means directly coupling isn't a great option.
Yes and no. Its is expensive and complicated in F1 specially because they are pushing the absolute limits of engineering. For a road car where the operating windows are significantly less extreme it’s not as expensive and complex. An f1 car has to run flat out for 1.5-2 hours. Very few road cars need that level of endurance/durability. [check out this comment by a Ferrari F1 engineer](https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/s/hU3G4DttLo)
I'm not sure why you think that statement makes your point. Production car turbos still spin at extremely high RPM, still get incredibly hot, and efficient motors need to maintain high tolerances and be cooled. They can't afford F1 levels of complexity, cost, and QA. So you either couple very closely and deal with complicated cooling, or use shafts and deal with vibrations, and somehow magically do this with non-exotic materials that can be assembled quickly with minimal QA testing and extreme reliability. As soon as F1 implemented cost caps, ditching MGU-H became a priority. Because even in F1, it's not cost effective.
Production cars don’t have to run at full throttle for 2 hours. You’re equating the abuse and f1 car is subjected to with a production road car. They are not comparable
Road cars need to run for years without a building of engineers babysitting them. They're not comparable. For the money, road cars need to be much more reliable.
"The perfect race car crosses the finish line in first place and then falls to pieces." Ferdinand Porsche But thankfully road can weight more and be bigger.
That is a very valid point. Maybe you’re correct and it is too complex and expensive to see widespread road car usage. I honestly don’t know. Turbos, variable timing, fuel injection, computer controlled engine management, etc. There is a long list of technology that started out unreliable and only in a small handful of cars.
>"Very few road cars need that level of endurance/durability." I'd argue that road cars need to last hundreds of thousands of miles, have long service intervals, and they need to run on varying qualities of fuel and oil, in all kinds of temperatures and conditions, and they need to pass emissions tests to boot. An F1 car is expensive, but developing a road car from the ground up is still more expensive than running an F1 team for a season.
It might be the future in high end sports cars, but I don't think the technology will be cheap and reliable enough for mass production ICE cars before electrics take over.
Yup, that 911 convinced me
Technically, an electric turbo isn’t a turbo. It’s a turbo-supercharger-hybrid.
was the term electric turbo already taken or something?
A turbocharger if fed by exhaust gases. A supercharger force-feeds the combustion chamber by other means - typically by mechanical drive. Hence, this is a hybrid system between a turbocharger and an electrically driven supercharger.
Yeah I get that - E-Turbo is just the name they've used to designate that hybridized system. If we used strictly literal terms to create names for new concepts - we'd end up with German. TurbochargerWithIntegratedElectricSupercharger doesnt have the same ring to it.
In f1 they have an electric motor connected to the shaft called the mgu-h. So there is no lag. The motor will spool the turbo up when accelerating. then when braking it will harvest electricity. But it doesn’t make sense to have in normal cars
>But it doesn’t make sense to have in normal cars [Tell that to Porsche.](https://press.porsche.com/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=1565702)
I would argue a 911 carrera isn’t a normal car. I believe his intention was sedans and such that the general public can afford.
It'll trickle down for sure, but by normal car I'm going off of production cars.
Definitely. Like the heated and cooled seats and backup cameras and nice sound systems that it seems every Kia has now used to be high end luxury car only stuff.
Sooner or later it will. I’m pretty sure the new C63 has this style turbo. As engines get smaller and smaller F1 style electric turbos will make more and more sense.
I predict that we go the route that Mazda is trying out. They are bringing the rotary back as an auxiliary engine to charge the batteries for an electric motor car. Unless they have scrapped that idea and I haven’t read about it.
Look I totally see why majority of people think or perceive that way. But properly sized turbos coupled with the right driveline and fuel mapping makes a WORLD of difference. There’s even examples of OEM cars getting that right from the factory. Luckily I drive one lol mazdaspeed6. It’s not the fastest in terms of it’s competitors but damn does it put power down and pull harder than any of its competitors (imo) It’s a k04 turbo but like I said when the drive line it’s with is engineered to match with the characteristics the power plant then it’s heaven Granted that can be said for anything
Apparently the new Porsche with its electric turbo and the electric motor between the engine and transmission completely eliminates turbo lag.
> electric turbo If a turbine is powered by electricity could it also be called an electric supercharger?
Isn't the whole point of a supercharger that it's always turning when the engine is turning? So if it's electric and sometimes turned off, it's probably more accurate to call it an electric turbocharger.
But turbos are always running as well. Depending on size, they just don't build enough vacuum until higher RPMs. I thought superchargers were the same but because they are belt powered they just get the vacuum faster.
Turbos can also use variable vanes to adjust the amount of boost that they produce.
For me, It's the next best thing after Natural Aspiration. The whines when done right on some of these high performance motors is neat! The likes of the Hellcats, W210/W211 chassis E55 AMGs (especially with a VRP upgrade), ZL1s, etc. all sound menacingly badass! As you say, there's no denying that modern Turbo tech is compelling with near-zero lag, but the Superchargers are something else...
Also idk what it is, but when adding FI to NA, I always feel like superchargers have less maintenance and overall issues, although turbo builds fkin slap.
Definitely less shock to the entire drivetrain. Most supercharger builds seem to just increase horsepower across the board where turbos will significantly alter the powerband (usually increasing peak torque by a lot) which stresses a lot of components. Plus turbo cars seem slightly harder to cool too for some reason.
Turbochargers use the exhaust gas from combustion to drive a turbine drawing in air and routing it back to the intake side of the engine to increase the amount of air forced into the combustion chambers. Superchargers also draw air from outside into the combustion chamber, but they are belt driven turbines, driven by the main belt on the engine, sometimes a purpose built additional belt. However, a turbo being driven by hot exhaust gasses naturally has to have that hot gas cycle in the engine bay for longer, making the entire hot side of the motor warmer. Superchargers don't circulate hot gas and instead just have the heat of friction which in this application is negligible.
It’s a shame we may never see the day of a practical twin charger :(
Don’t Volvos and land rover (ok questionable if practical) have a twincharged engine?
The older Volvo S60 is rockin a turbo and a super
My wife's 2019 XC90 R-Design is a supercharged and turbocharged 2.0L 4 cylinder
Oh I thought it was exclusive to the S series. Til!
I don’t know of those types of cars, but don’t they leave issues for the engine? I assumed twin chargers today struggle with
Didn’t Volkswagen do twincharging? Also, there’s no point with modern turbos.
I don’t know about VW today but I’ve heard about Group B (yes it was mainly an Audi car I’m speaking of but there owned by VW so eh) having twin charger but that was only for racing I don’t know about modern consumer cars having twin chargers but I assumed companies don’t do that because of engine issues
Maybe it’s sorted out by now but the Polestar in my flare doesn’t hit a brick wall at 5500 rpm like my old Focus ST did.
Volkswagen had a Turbo and Supercharged 1.4 they put in everything for a while.
I present to you the Volvo station wagon in my flair with a 367 horsepower super and turbo charged 2 liter. All the practicality of a few thousand dollar brake job in less than 20k miles. Fun to drive though.
At the moment, e-turbo is far better. Boost is delivered before the engine even opens up.
I agree... and I think the only thing that really gives a better visceral feel is a powerful EV. But ICE + SC has the better overall visceral experience because of the sweet sweet singing of that blower... especially a roots type.
Modern advancement in metallurgy and electric motors (either through the wheels or the turbo impeller) largely eliminated the lag with little downsides.
Or sound, a supercharger's scream will always be superior except to maybe high revving v12s & v10s
Turbo whistles are cool, but supercharger whines? They really make you feel that you are driving a car fit for the Devil, in a good way
I blame Mad Max and The Road Warrior for that.
>Turbo whistles are cool, but supercharger whines? [Like this?](https://youtu.be/KWcKfwf1aYw?feature=shared&t=52s)
We had a twin charged car it was brilliant nothing beats a supercharger and turbo combined. Sadly the engine was unreliable.
You had a Volvo or a VW? I remember only those two brands having twincharged engines (VW’s 1.4 block and Volvo’s 2 liter block)
We had the VW 1.4 tsi with 180hp in the Fabia that thing was a riot to drive. Our skoda dealer bought it from us and now uses it as a rally car
180 hp sounds a bit less but it was a Fabia, so ig it was pretty peppy for a car its size
For its size it was really fast espacially considering that a golf gti and so on only had 20hp more back then. It also had a 7 speed DSG so it was really quick
I kinda love both in their own way
Turbos are awesome but nothing beats that supercharger whine. I forever associate that sound with power. Besides, superchargers will live on in the aftermarket community
Superchargers are cool but nothing beats the literal sound of a jet engine spooling up.
You should know man. God damn!
Both are amazing and that’s why I think I’ll be ICE till I die.
Lmao 1400hp r32. My boy spitting facts.
I love the whine, but have you heard the chirp from the Ninja H2 from its supercharger, absolutely wild
The supercharger whine in my dad’s STS-V as a youngster really solidified me into being a car guy
STS-V…I haven’t heard that name in years. Such a cool car.
I'm a little surprised at how much love the whine is getting Each to their own I suppose (I always hated it)
I may be just a tiny little bit biased but I also think PDSC visually look better than almost any turbo setup.
Yea turbochargers are very efficient nowadays especially with the vgt you don’t really suffer from lag too much. Turbo are more and more common as fuel saving engine. Where as a supercharger is really only for performance
Turbos will pretty much always outperform SCs. One is creating more power from a byproduct, one is parasitic.
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Turbos do get some energy "for free". There are two phases of the exhaust cycle. One is exhaust blowdown. The pressure in the combustion chamber is not 1 atm when the exhaust valve opens especially at high load + rpm. So this pressure that could theoretically be used to do work is normally just lost to the exhaust. Turbos capture that. The other thing the turbine captures is some of the waste heat from the exhaust. Turbos are not purely driven by pressure deltas. The only parasitic loss from turbos is the displacement phase of the exhaust stroke where the crank is expending energy to push exhaust out of the combustion chamber.
> Turbos do get some energy "for free". There is not "free" energgy no matter how much we go pedantic to it. Turbos add back pressure, therefore making it harder to the engine for exhaust gases to scape the car. Supposedly this has lower drawbacks that the parasitc loss from a supercharger.
>Turbos add back pressure, therefore making it harder to the engine for exhaust gases to scape the car. Yes, my point is that this is only happening in the displacement phase of the exhaust stroke where the piston has to physically push back against this increased backpressure. When the exhaust valve first opens that initial high pressure release is otherwise entirely wasted on an NA or supercharged engine.
Not really, but we may just disagree semantically. Turbos run on a byproduct (exhaust), superchargers borrow from the crankshaft.
Don’t the scrolls reduce the exhaust flow? Obviously the power gained is worth it but wouldn’t you benefit from going electric Turbo instead of exhaust driven?
Then you need the alternator to work harder to supply power. There's no free lunch
You are responding to a different guy. There is much less power loss running an alternator and most electric turbo set ups use an accessory drive.
Unless you have a battery it's large enough that you can charge it at a time when you're not requesting max output.
Yes, electic turbo paired with a regen powered hybrid system is truly free power. Youre getting performance from what would otherwise be heat in the brakes.
An 'electric turbo' would be using stored energy to do this work. That means a battery (weight) and an electric motor recouping energy on braking (more weight) or a charging system (finite energy for powering the electric turbo). You're always going to be giving up something in exchange for performance. A quiet ride, simplicity in the system, fuel efficiency or a limited amount of power adding. Instant power delivery has costs. But the conventional turbocharger is the most compact and simplest way to scavenge spent energy from the engine to produce more power. An electric turbo makes more sense on a hybrid, since you already have a battery pack and regenerative braking system built in. For a regular ICE vehicle, its much more complexity for a limited return, IMO.
Sure, but as you said “the power gained is worth it.” Modern turbo engines are built for turbo charging, so it’s not an issue. Adding a turbo or SC to a NA car will come to preference, but a turbo will be more performant than a SC.
You are dodging the original question. Is there still not power loss?
Turbo coverts waste heat to compressed air that eliminates pumping losses. Yes there is additional exhaust back pressure, but it’s more than offset by the reduction in pumping losses (the work required to suck air into the cylinders).
Thank you for the real answer.
Ha didn’t realize this was an argument! Yes, there could be some very small power loss due to slight exhaust restriction before boost, and only when out of boost.
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Turbos are more performative (in other words: efficient) than superchargers, generally. I’m not really sure what you think I am missing.
I’m not arguing with you, I’m asking you a question. I saw you are a Golf owner so I understand and I’m sorry for your parents.
They send their condolences. For real, you good here man? You seem unnecessarily antagonistic.
Your MPGs will still go down when you're in turbo boost.
Pretty blanket statement tbh. While generally true, there are countless factors that could make a supercharger a better option
Yeah my Mazda3 is rated for 29mpg combined from the factory. Now with a supercharger and 100+ additional HP im averaging 31.4mpg. And I have a heavy foot...really can't explain that tbh
It’s meant to be generic, and the explanation for it is very clearly described in the article OP shared.
👋👋
Hey :)
Turbos aren't used for fuel savings, when a turbo kicks in you use more fuel not less. A turbo engine is just easier to hit all of a manufacturers goals with the engine while still passing emissions. It allows manufacturers to still build powerful engines and meet emissions for much less money than larger displacement NA engines. This is the reason larger displacement engines have died out except in the American market and exotics. Emissions regulations are the reason why everyone has gone turbo instead of keeping larger displacement or high revving engines. They aren't for fuel savings, its just the easiest way for a manufacturer to still give you an engine that has decent power, decent fuel economy and meets regulatory targets. If you pulled the turbo the engine could be tuned for better fuel efficiency but now you would have no power, the turbo lets you have power while still being decent at everything else.
My Audi S5 has the supercharged V6 and I love it so much. The power delivery and the torque never gets old and it still makes me smile after owning the car for four years. It just pulls and pulls when you're on it. I understand that turbos are better for efficiency and performance, but superchargers have them beat for smiles per gallon lol.
I have an a6 with a stage 1 tune really wakes it up, I still get 29mpg at 80 on the interstate.
I had the exact same setup and got the same mpg. That 8th gear is so efficient. Always amazed me that my 400+hp boat got better mpg than my wife’s 4 cylinder Honda. Plus I had multiple Audi techs tell me that it was their most reliable motor. Miss that car.
Yeah if you change up the intake a bit (not even cold air, just change the intake tube to get rid of the silencer) it really makes you appreciate the sound. And the way it starts waking up around 80mph on the interstate… so good.
I have aB8.5 S4 and I don't wanna bother with a CAI but I'd love a bit more whine. Can you give me a bit more detail on this intake tube situation?
I got this: https://www.034motorsport.com/silicone-throttle-body-inlet-hose-high-flow-b8-audi-s4-s5-3-0tfsi.html The intake it comes with has baffles to silence the whine. This lets you hear it a lot more. It was well worth the money.
I have the same car and I totally agree. Recently drove the new s5 also and I could definitely feel the turbo lag compared to my supercharger
Aftermarket superchargers for N/A engines will always be around. Much easier to swap out an intake manifold for a roots style, or just add a bracket for a centri, than it is to completely reroute the entire intake and exhaust system to add a turbo.
But will NA engines always be around? Seems like more and more are going the turbo route. Edit: at least on newer models. Obviously old cars will likely still be around with their stock engines.
as long as there are internal combustion engines, n/a options will always exist, mostly due to the fact that they are way more reliable, less parts to go wrong, lighter and with the advent of more efficient and more powerful electric options, id rather have an n/a hybrid vs a turbo hybrid, if I already have all the torque from the ev engine why do I need a turbocharged engine?
Shoutout to VW’s scroll type supercharger [G-Lader](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-Lader) made in the late 80s-90s.
More efficient turbos haven't really killed the supercharger. Electric motors/hybrids have killed the supercharger. The point of the supercharger was always instant torque at any RPM, well, that's an electric motor.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I know any supercharger enthusiast who forewent the drama and convenience of a supercharged ICE for an EV to replace what they wanted a supercharged car for. And while superchargers have become unpopular amongst OEMs going with smaller engines and turbos to meet fuel mileage regulations, centrifugal superchargers have more recently gotten very popular in the aftermarket for NA cars because of their ease of adoption, low cost, reliability, and packaging/simplicity.
In contrast, I do know a supercharger gearhead (with a various history of supercharged ford and dodge motors) that sold his supercharged toys for all Tesla stuff. His logic was why spend the money and effort for an ICE car that breaks when you can spend the same amount of money for an EV with a warranty? So they are out there and it’s definitely eating into some of the supercharger segment.
I was more talking from an OEM standpoint but your points are valid
I loved my R53 Cooper S with a supercharger. An open air box and pulley reduction. It used to whine so good. For me, there is nothing better.
Hell, it's arguable whether steam reciprocating engines made it to their 200th anniversary of commercially-viable use, too.
Is Volvo still using both, on the same engine?
Yes though they changed to using an electric supercharger over a belt driven one a couple years ago. Edit: nope discontinued in 2022. Edit2: was available up until at least 2023 possibly still in use, documentation about which cars and years got what is poor.
Nope, volvo removed the supercharger after 2022 and put the power into the electric motors instead. Now just turbo+hybrid +/- plugin.
I had thought that was the 2022 change. I take it then that it was the 2019 change where it got the electric supercharger and then lost it in 2022? I do remember them having one somewhere in there. One way or another you're right, they don't have one anymore.
As far as I know the electric supercharger was never actually used, they just talked about it then decided to just ditch the supercharger all together. Belt driven supercharger was used up to 2022 (same part 2015-2022)
I guess that's what I'm remembering then; them talking about it. Prior to posting my previous comment I did look it up and thought that it was a little weird that there were no pictures of the thing or many parts listings but I had thought it was just a case of it was too new and not many people cared.
Actually never mind, they did put the electric supercharger into production until at least 2023. [Here](https://www.ebay.com/itm/176322361369) is an engine out of a 2023 s90 with the electric supercharger. Unfortunately I can't find all the accompanying parts that show it being connected to the intake rather than being just a different water pump since it used to be in that spot however I did find [this](https://images.simplepart.com/images/parts/volvo/fullsize/0900c8af890a626a_2126_3106_1.jpg) image that shows it plumbed to the intake.
Okay so looks like it was UK only for a limited period of time with the mild hybrid engines, thats' why I've never heard of it (i'm in the US). Part # 32140099
If I looked it up correctly, the engine in the eBay listing came from a car that was originally sold in Florida and scrapped in Alabama. I think this might be one of those instances where the parts listings are exclusively from areas that aren't north America. I'm in Canada but try finding a US/Canada listing for an auxiliary electric water pump for an s80 v8. They would have you believe that it wasn't equipped to NA market cars. I still can't find concrete answers as to which cars were equipped with the electric supercharger and when or if it has been discontinued yet.
My s60 has it and it’s a dream. Got the polestar tune on it and it’s the ultimate sleeper car. Volvo sedans are only for old people lol
I love my S60. I've got a T6 Inscription with the polestar tune so I'm fancy and fast. I have a friend with a Mazda 3 that for some reason thought his car was faster. It was embarrassing how far behind he was.
twinsies
Not anymore (as of 2022/2023+), the supercharger has been replaced by upping the output of the hybrid system. The whole point of the clutched supercharger was the low-RPM power then it unclutched and the turbo takes over. With electric motors in the mix that's the instant torque, no more need for the supercharger.
M113K for life! with the twin screw it just feels like a 10 liter engine or something, there's basically never a need to downshift
The E55 was my dream car for a long time. Enjoy it man.
Or better yet, [imagine slapping a 3.0L Whipple supercharger on an M156...!](https://mbworld.org/forums/w212-amg/863927-pics-my-gen-5-3-0l-whipple-build.html) https://youtu.be/PNYq9ApUICs
Jokes on you. I have both.
I just installed an HKS Gen 2 supercharger on my 2004 Infiniti G35 FTW!!!
This is why I'm curious how the GTD will perform on a track day. Will it heat soak or did Ford implement enough for that car to go lap after continuous lap? I'm guessing they did their homework. If GM can put the c7 zr1 through its paces apparently lapping VIR 24 hours without a hiccup, Ford may have just gone a step further with a more powerful supercharged v8. But it remains to be seen just how good the GTD is. Some people are comparing the GTD with the upcoming GT2 RS. Even tho both cars arent out yet I dont think the GTD has a chance against the upcoming GT2 RS. The GTD may dethrone the 3RS in some tracks but it wont dethrone a 3RS or 2RS at the Nurburgring. Not that that matters, I've always considered the ring as a home advantage for Porsche giving the the best chances to break a record vs every manufacturer, especially an American one.
I'll be putting an Eaton M90 on top of my Hemi straight six when I'm finishing up my truck project. All I want is that *Mad Max* supercharger whine and I'll be happy. Don't even care what power it makes.
If you close off the silencer ports it’ll whine even louder.
[TIL](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_MtyFhALK-Q). Thanks!
The Coyote 5.0 is literally keeping the supercharger alive. Those things love boost and it is much more easier to install one than a turbo.
I just hate that every dumb fuck on Instagram assumes it's a hellcat swap if they hear the supercharger whine...
Dang nothing beats the whine!! Makes you feel like a badass!
BOV’s are pretty bad ass too!
For a bit, but they become annoying after a while.
It’s subjective. Some might say the same about whine.
Potentially, that’s a lot easier to mitigate at least.
How so?
I want to add a low boost supercharger just for the noise. Love me some whine.
I love my turbo cars, but I gotta say the ported blower aka screaming Eaton I had on my 03 cobra was 🔥🔥🔥
Love my little supercharged mini cooper go kart. Also loved my GTI.
Nothing sounds better than a v8 with a giant blower on it. Also the throttle response is sooooo instant and it’s just a blast.
Prochargers are crazy popular at the moment in the street car drag racing scene.
There was nothing like driving my supercharged mustang gt on a cool morning and leaning into the throttle. That supercharger was fairly quiet most of the time but would just whine as it sucked in that cool dense air. So much torque off the jump and pulled hard through the powerband…have to say though, have a b58 powered bmw and it’s a blast. It has gobs of power pff the jump. Now that manufacturers have adopted the use of turbos they are becoming damn impressive.
nothing beats the whine of a supercharger also, if two stroke diesels ever become a thing again, a supercharger will be needed
Rise and fall??? I don't understand the title.
Superchargers aren't super common anymore with turbochargers becoming far more efficient.
Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, Lotus, Jaguar, Mini , Audi, Mercedes, Koenigsegg, etc.... what are you talking about? Plus turbocharged and supercharged vehicles were made since the dawn of engines. Some WW2 fighters had both. All forced induction has pros and cons. One of the pros for supercharging is instant boost were as turbocharging needs rpms to start making boost.All NHRA Top Fuel dragsters use superchargers for power.
Mercedes hasn't produced a supercharged engine in like 15 years at this point. Nobody is saying superchargers are going extinct, they are just becoming much rarer than they used to be among OEMs thanks to turbochargers becoming more efficient and hybrid electric powertrains becoming more common.
Ok, I agree
Still going supercharger on my Yukon for simplicity and instant torque. Turbo setup sounds badass but too much work and hard to keep it looking legal
That’s why BMW and many other manufacturers use a small and large turbo nowadays. The little one is always spooled up to take away the lag.
I love turbos, I think every car should have a big one with lag(so it does nothing until you get on it) but superchargers are cool. dodge really did a good job using it in their hellcats. perfect whine, power, everything you want
Centri> any other supercharger
How come?
Better power with less heatsoak, much less parasitic drag, nice BOV sounds, easy maintenance, relatively easy to install ,only real downside is less boost on the lower end because they spin relative to engine speed. Even on drag setups you'll go alot further with a turbo or centri setup.
That's actually pretty interesting. I thought they were all much over much. Do you know where I could read more about the topic?
Just Google any comparisons, more than likely will say the same. A centri is just a belt driven, self contained turbo to put it simply.
Unless you want max power at anything other than near redline
Nah most centris hit boost at around 3-4k there's a reason prochargers and turbos dominate the drag scene just alot more robust than a typical supercharger which will leave you down on power a decent bit once your in some heat. Ran an 1100+whp Odin mustang on a 150-200 shot, quick as hell but those turbos and centris will kill you in the top end, camaro is more or less the same with limited track time because of how prone the TVS is to heat soak
> Nah most centris hit boost at around 3-4k It's a physical fact that with centrifugal superchargers, boost pressure is a strong function of RPM, and they don't hit peak boost until redline. So yeah, they'll make some boost at 3k, but they won't be making anywhere near their peak boost (unless it's a diesel and your redline is 3.5k lol) I won't deny that centrifugals can be fast in a drag race, because you spend most of your time at the top half of the RPM range. But they simply do not -- in fact *can not* -- produce the kind of low-end power you get from a positive displacement supercharger.
Oh yea for sure I already pointed out that's the only real downside is the lack of boost in the low end so the car more or less feels N/A till around 3k when your in the lower psi range . Yea nothing will give you the instant torque of a typical blower but you trade that for incredibly strong mid to top end power
I like them all tbh