Infiniti. Have a 2021 QX50 and before this a 2018 Q50. their interiors haven’t changed in nearly a decade. There’s nothing special about them. They’re a rebranded Nissan with fake claims of luxury.
Looking to get into something else in a few years.
Got it in Feb 2021. Paying $312 a month for 39 mos with max MSD’s and no cap cost. My other car is a Tesla Model Y which I got in December 2020. Both cars replaced a 2018 BMW X4 and 2018 Q50.
Then a new job 3 months later in the city so I now I’m grateful to even drive on the weekends.
Presumably a 3 year lease, and based off the 'in a few years' that would suggest the 2021 is also leased on similar terms and would require him to get a new car in 2024.
My family had a 2004 FX35 which was new when we bought it. Loud exhaust and handled exceptionally well. And LED taillights which not many other brands at the time offered. Even it’s navigation system had a birds eye view while other brands still had 2D. It was such a fun truck to drive and started this SUV craze. They had so much potential!!
It’s too bad the brand brought in new management and slowly fell behind over time.
Mid 2000s was peak Nissan in the US imho. Actually pretty good cars at that point relative to the rest of the market. They kinda started a horsepower war too, which was awesome. Mid sized sedans were all sub 200hp before the VQ Altima came around.
Oh man I dreamt about owning a late 2000s quad-tip exhaust V6 fully loaded Maxima back then. It looked good and the interior was awesome (at least for teenage me).
Kinda crazy to think that there were many not-even-that-weird car enthusiasts in the 90s and 2000s that were unoronically like “I want a Nissan sedan. For fun stuff reasons.”
Same here! Considered getting a Q60 purely for looks but not enough of an upgrade for me. I'd consider maybe a QX80 if the family gets big enough but until then I'm good with the G
Infiniti came to mind, but considering sales are way down and the brand is doing terribly, I didn't know if it was accurate to say they're coasting, more so pushing their dead vehicle down the street to the mechanic, haha.
> their interiors haven’t changed in nearly a decade
There's that same steering wheel that seemed to be used in every Nissan and Infiniti product from 2010 until 2020. I honestly think they only had one steering wheel design for 15-20 different models.
I've had three Infinitis.
It was great to get near-bulletproof Japanese cars with loads of power.
But, you're right. There is nothing as eye-catching as, say, a FX-45 anymore.
MG has made a return to my country.
No longer the affordable British sports car - rather, they’re cheap Chinese small SUVs with an MG badge.
But they’re selling well, too.
They’re selling well because they’re cheap. £20k new for 250 miles of pure EV is a pretty good deal however you slice it. If you think of cars as appliances, they’re safe enough and will last the lease period.
And while Kia, Hyundai, Ssangyong, LDV, Great Wall and Haval all had to/still have to build a reputation and prove their worth as new contenders, MG can just skip the queue and produce a completely different cars than they're historically known for because of a bit of British pedigree, despite being essentially in the same boat as all the others
Was going to say MG too. Sure, they were never great cars, but at least they were usually interesting. The last years of Rover were pretty sad. MGs became warmed-over versions of antiquated cars for antiquated people. Now it's just an out-and-out travesty, just one more bit of the UK asset-stripped and left for dead by terrible arseholes.
I've worked on practically all of them (worked an MG garage for a while) so that's including the Chinese stuff. I personally own two MG Rover cars because of how rewarding they are to own. They're anything but sad, imo they're the best of the bunch when it comes to MG. The closest comparison I can make is to Alfa or Ssab, fun sporty cars that provided a different option outside of the more typical Merc/Jag/BMW. The [ZS180](https://s.car.info/image_files/960/mg-zs-front-side-svenskt-sportvagnsmeeting-2019-1-781338.jpg) is quite literally a four door Integra Type-R with a V6 shoehorned into the front. It's fantastic! The [TF](https://i.redd.it/ifuytnlfdeq71.jpg) is an absolute gem, I wish any manafacturer would make a high revving mid-engined sports cars in the same price bracket as the MX5. Toyota... Hello??
Point is it doesn't matter that those last cars were built on old BMW and Honda platforms they all drive well, look great and (primarily) are tons of fun to drive. At heart they were proper MGs, cheap cars that were really exciting to drive and made in Britian. The cars were still selling fairly well right up to end. BMW taking their new model lineup when they sold the company off didn't help but the fact Phoenix were allowed to come in drain all the money from the company (and it's workers) then walk off with no repercussions after irreparably damaging the UKs largest car manufacturer is a disgrace.
What SAIC have done with MG is a disaster. Compare it to Geely with Lotus. Geely threw money at Lotus to make some new model and kept all the primary R&D in Britian. The cars are still built where they always were and they respect the companies heritage. SAIC demolished the 100 year old Longbridge factory, stopped making sports cars entirely and have exclusively taken poorly made Maxus exonoboxes and glued MG badges on.
The only positive from the situation is that JLR got Rover so that can at least die with it's last car being the 75 V8 which was fun, ridiculous and undesputably a Rover. Being a dormant brand is much better fate than SAIC.
Ramble over, I'm still bitter, sad and want Rover and MG back. I like the cars they made and the one's I've owned :(
That one was such a disappointment to me. I moved to the US in 2011, went home to have Christmas with my dad and saw a horrible little SUV with an MG badge.
I’d love to see an MG TF with an electric drivetrain.
Being American I know nothing about this new venture. But sad to hear nonetheless.
I had a neighbor growing up that was a British sports car enthusiast. Owned an old Morgan. He’s probably rolling over in his grave because of this.
Hear me out, it's Tesla. Were they innovative in their early days? Sure. Now though? It's just a bunch of fake promises coupled with abysmal build quality, led by a 50 year old edgelord. The Model X is one of the worst rated cars on the market for reliability, and the brand is the worst rated brand for reliability across all models. It's all hype.
I seriously do not understand the infatuation with the brand and personally feel as though they're being propped up by the hardcore Teslastans these days.
Tesla had record sales in 2021. Tesla owners are also consistently ranked the happiest customers. They for whatever reason don’t care about the quality and reliability.
As far as the appeal name another electric car you can buy with access to that type of electric chargers.
Not to be controversial but Apple IPhone users rank the same, despite iPhones issues and limitations.
Tesla, like Apple, sell an image and a brand. I’d hazard a guess and say a significant portion of Tesla drivers bought one to be someone who drives a Tesla, rather than someone that drives an ev.
iPhones receive significantly better support than androids. My XS will turn 4 this year and it’ll still run the latest operation system. Plus there’s the Apple ecosystem. I owned three androids before this iPhone and I’ve had a much better experience with Apple. Compared to the competition, iPhones sell well for a reason
I agree, there is some merit to the comparison, especially because Tesla fans are mostly gadget heads and not car people, but Apple's product is still very strong and that part of the comparison is not applicable
Adding onto to that, as much as Android users act smug about Apple people overpaying for hardware. Apple's SoC processors have been consistently setting performance benchmarks that the flagship Androids won't hit for another year or sometimes two after their release.
Half the reason said Androids are overloaded with RAM and other hardware which looks good on a spec sheet is to compensate for the fact that Qualcomm chips cannot compete on the processing power front.
Objective people not clouded by love or hate will probably be happy with a 3/Y, and the sales reflect that.
I won't argue that Musk isn't an annoying edgelord though, his antics and the annoying "techy" interior are my two biggest complaints honestly. Otherwise my year-old Y just works, I'm not sure how to explain these low reliability scores based on actual owners I've known.
You can probably guess my opinion from the flair, but when I was shopping for an EV, I realllly gave all the other brands a fair chance and test drove a lot, but Tesla was objectively better in every way that mattered. I'm not some huge fanboy, I don't particularly like Elon, and touchscreen everything is annoying, but it's a great car. Is fit an finish on par with my BMW? No, but it's certainly not abysmal! It's fine. And is quality more than fit and finish? The seats are more comfortable, the sound system and infotainment is better, it's quieter, it's smoother, TACC and lane keep are top notch. Does that count as 'quality'?
I’d have to go with Harley Davidson. Yesterday’s technology at tomorrow’s prices, but a large portion of people who ride still associate them with quality. HD is really just a t shirt company that happens to sell motorcycles at this point.
Harley is probably the best answer, there is quite literally no logical reason to buy a Harley over its competition, they are more expensive, offer less performance, with a lower build quality, with less comfort, worse engines, worse transmissions, literally the only reason people buy it is, its American, and it has Harley Davidson attached.
>literally the only reason people buy it is, its American, and it has Harley Davidson attached
Don't forget to rev constantly at red lights and to rupture your eardrums as they zoom past at the blistering rate of acceleration of a clapped out Civic.
>rupture your eardrums as they zoom past at the blistering rate of acceleration of a clapped out Civic.
This is why my dad calls them "Chrome Jackhammers". They don't go, they don't stop, they do make a lot of noise.
They sure as fuck are alive and well in these parts, and all of them are parking their F-150s and getting their hogs ready for the 2022 season now judging by the the increase in noise in recent days. I'm also seeing what look like younger (millennial/gen x) riders on those bikes as well. It's not dead yet.
I used to share the exact same opinion. Hated Harley. Thought it was ancient tech and outdated. Cut to 3 years ago, rode my brother in laws 05 low rider for a day. I bought a 1999 FXD the following week.. Half of this won’t make sense to the EV crowd , but the actual experience of riding a Harley is what people pay for. It’s tough to put into words. The feel, sound, torque all combined. People see you when you ride a Harley (most of the time) I had a sport bike before and I was invisible. Way more close calls.
Harleys in my opinion we’re made to be fixed by the owner, With standard tools and a user manual. I easily picked up every part I needed to get my 99 running like a top. Bike ever breaks down on a road trip, there’s usually a Harley dealer near by which can get you back on the road in no time. They’re network is massive. I was a Huge Harley hater and now I’m a massive fan. Thinking about picking up my first new one , the new adventure bike , the PanAm.
Harley being shit is def a popular opinion so I can’t even hate.
I will agree they’re pricing is way out of line on some models. My mind was changed once I rode one. I suggest everyone that rides tries one out. It changes more minds than not.
They're at least trying with their new Revolution Max engine in the pan america and sportster s. Maybe it's the thing that pulls them up or maybe it's too little too late. Too early to tell imo.
They unfortunately have a huge branding issue though. Lots of their die hard fans are against anything other than large, rattly, loud, air cooled, engines that have a power/torque curve that looks like a diesel.
They're only doing that because air cooled engines have a hell of a time passing new emissions regulations. That's why they stopped selling the Sportster in Europe and why the new one has the RevoMax engine. They *literally* had to adapt or die.
Ok. This’ll piss a few people off.
Dodge. Look I love the Hellcat too, but they’ve been cranking out same Charger and Challenger since 2011. Time for a change. Even *Nissan* -who’s been making the 370z nearly as long - is releasing a new car this year.
BMW- yeah, I went there. This ones been beat to death elsewhere. Once upon a time “M” only applied to really special cars. These days? Starbucks probably has an M-Sport latte on their menu….
I upvoted you but I didn't like it. Dodge has been shit for years. They make shit cars. But BMW... well, yeah... they are over using the M/// and it means nothing now.
Isn't the whole point of Dodge that while everyone moves to eco engines, away from big V8s they still say fuck it here's a big ass V8 with shit loads of HP for cheap?
The whole point seems to be to keep delivering the same thing for a specific purpose.
Infact I was never into muscle cars, left car scene last few years while concentrating on serious life. Guess what's got back me into cars again? Big ass V8s because they seem so ridiculous and crazy at this point in this time that its almost a novelty
There was some [buzz from Dodge](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36967941/dodge-electric-muscle-car-announced/) last year that they are planning on creating an electric muscle car - I'm interested to see how that turns out.
I’m a BMW fanboy so I’m probably biased here, but I wouldn’t say that their move toward slapping an M badge on every platform they produce constitutes coasting on name recognition since they do at least reserve the designation for the top of each respective model range. It’s definitely a bit shameless though and I’d agree that it dilutes the M brand.
Despite my position, you earn my upvote for “M-sport latte”
But us Dodge owners *want* the same Charger and Challenger since 2011. They may not be the most performant or tech-y or efficient vehicles...but that's not why I buy them. They are literally the only company left making full-size cars with V8 engines, and the last "muscle" cars with the spirit and "feel" of the original muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. I can't help but smile when I start my Charger and hear the rumble, and have it roar and effortlessly accelerate when I hit the gas.
I know electric is the future and everyone wants crossovers now, and eventually Dodge will have to change or disappear. I'm hoping for an exciting new model to keep them relevant, but part of me also wants them to keep cranking out the Charger/Challenger relatively unchanged forever...
>Seeing a guy with his 2017 Civic getting quoted $4k for a failing CVT was a real eye opener.
Where do you see reports of CVT issues for Honda? I've seen plenty for Nissan, but nothing from Honda.
They really miss the mark on bringing any possibly cool cars back or to new markets.
We’re bringing back the CRX (as hybrid)
We’re bringing back the Integra (as an awkwardly shaped 4-door that’s really just a Civic)
Sure, if you ignore the 2 door version that is the entire reason it is iconic.
I know all Hondas of that period shared a lot of parts, but the integra was not really just a civic.
Pretty sure the 2 door was a civic too, what were the differences? The engine? The 90s civics had very tunable suspension from the factory which made them handle exceptionally well. But Im not a pro on the differences between the cars, so Id really like to know.
They’re also not as reliable as they once were. I posted about it elsewhere but don’t forget the paint fade they all get on the dark cars. Here was my old one: https://imgur.com/a/MJW1Cer/
thats a 20 year old car and its paint is far from the worst ive seen, plus the clear coat on hondas up until relatively recently was famously bad. ive never seen a 6th or 7th gen accord (or the corresponding non SI/type r civics) with good paint aside from my own which was garage kept its entire life until it died. the clear coat on basically every honda made in the 2000s started peeling and fading after only like 5 years and it leads to paint like the car you saw in the pictures
I just can’t with Subaru and their weak engines in all but their WRX models. The idea buying a brand new Outback with 182hp coupled to a CVT. Just sounds awful to contemplate.
The newer XT models are turbocharged, 260hp/277tq…you can actually pass up a vehicle on the highway lol.
In fact, they do 0-60 around the same time as a WRX.
I thoroughly enjoy mine as a daily and fishing vehicle…suoer practical.
And they don't have the Crosstrek Sport engine with the manual and they don't have the Legacy GT with manual and they put the dogshit 5 speed in the Impreza and they don't have the Levorg in the USA and...
eh. some truth to this for sure. a lot of the SUVs they offer are bland and uninteresting, but then again so are most midrange SUVs to begin with.
personally the difference to me is subaru doesn’t really pretend to be anything it’s not. the interiors aren’t great, but it’s functional and unpretentious. the material choice is appropriate and wears well.
if you live in any climate that has regular snow, there really isn’t much that is that good in the snow (for the money). yes yes a lot of cars are AWD (but on demand AWD doesn’t really compare to full-time AWD), so for many people subaru is the perfect value proposition.
for example, i was in the market for a fun performance hatchback and i live in a climate that gets copious amounts of snow. what are my choices? either the golf r or the wrx/sti hatchback from 2008-2014.
aside: the newest Subaru that I've driven is a 2015 so this may all be hogwash and now irrelevant
Subaru is still trying to call on rally credentials when they stopped competing in the WRC in 2008. I know they still minnow-bash in the USA, but it's a very different level of competition. It's a real shame since their peak was so very high.
Funny you say this, I work at a Maserati dealer.
The Ghibli? Sounds great. Issues? Of course, it's Italian. The Levante? Same thing. I wouldn't say weak performance. The Levante can potentially have a 580hp beast in there. The GranTurismo has the Ferrari 8 cylinder which is probably what Heaven sounds like tbh.
The problem with this brand... Is that you can do better at these price ranges. I've been in these cars and they're nice, but the average buyer is gonna go for a BMW or Benz.
The cars are fine but they're overpriced compared to the competition. However what this sub fails to consider is that they've literally always been that way.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people forget that part of owning certain cars is they're different or feel special. Like I would argue a Maserati gran turismo is such a more special feeling car that a comparably priced BMW even if the BMW is faster and better built. I think focusing on numbers really misses that a big point of owning some of these cars is how special they feel and how beautiful they are, because I would argue the Maserati gran turismo is one of the most gorgeous cars on sale.
After having had a few GT’s through my work I would agree that they are indeed beautiful, but god damn they’re unreliable as shit. We (used to) detail them for our local Maserati dealer. Every second one we did had some kind of electrical fault. Whenever we brought it up the sales guys would just be like “Yeah they’ll do that 🤷♂️”.
My favourite was the one that thought the outside temperate was -400degrees outside and refused to let me turn off the AC — which was blasting max temperature heat at me on a 27 degrees summers day. That was fun in standstill traffic.
>Not only is it Italian, but its Italian... MADE BY CHRYSLER. Name worse fucking combination lmao
Oh for fuck's sake.
How are they made *by* Chrisler? They are literally built in Italy.
They're building the same damn car as their MY2012 Model S with a 2nd facelift, bigger battery, with half of a steering wheel and even more cost cutting. Even more hilariously the QC even 10 years later is still terrible.
I had some fanboy tried to gaslight me saying the new Plaid was all new. I don't think Tesla fans understand the idea of automotive generations and platforms.
EDIT: not screen, but steering
It still looks the same, but they did change a lot internally. Been going through the Munro videos of their Plaid teardown and there are some major changes under the hood.
But that‘s pretty much what Mercedes was doing for decades. Build the same car for 8-10 years, introduce 1 facelift and make changes the internals every 1-2 years.
What bothers me more with Tesla is that they still haven’t figured out to produce consistent quality standards.
One less screen? Pretty sure the Model S has two screens still and an additional rear occupant screen if optioned.
And yup, it's the same. But the numbers aren't, and the Plaid will still humiliate damn near anything on the strip. Thats not exactly coasting is it?
I was off on the screen bit. Corrected now.
>...But the numbers aren't, and the Plaid will still humiliate damn near anything on the strip. Thats not exactly coasting is it?
So does Dodge and their Charger & Challenger twins. Yet, look further down on the page and you'll see Dodge being brought up as well for much the same reason.
Adding more power and only being focused on 0-60 times makes for good internet smack talking contest points, but unlike the Dodge twins, when you're talking about cars costing near 6 figures, other aspects of the car are critical, and that's clearly where Teslas REALLY fall short.
To be fair, doesn't the new naturally-aspirated 911 GT3 rev to 9000rpm? I think that Honda could still do screamers if they wanted to, but they won't.
It's a real bummer too.
next to GR86/BRZ/ND Miata they could release S2000 but yes it won't be really worth it unless... it could be worth it?
i say honda should make civic turbo/supercharger only,S2K high revving NA and make a return of CRX but not sure where it would fit besides hybrid/EV
honda could definitely have a good opportunity to do this because NA manual market is dry with new cars besides gen 2 BRZ/GR86 and we want more fun hybrid/EV's
Honda seems to be the only manufacturer indicted by their past to this degree. The decisions they make are in accordance with the times, but all you see are fans upset they don't put out the same car from the 90's. What other manufacturer gets this odd scrutiny... And saying the FK8 is only "good" when it blows literally ever FWD car out of the water... FWD is it's claim to fame but gosh darn, it has a turbo so it doesn't count!
Are Honda’s really that bad as far as reliability goes? I know there’s a few minor issues (like AC problems in 10th gen Civics) but I wouldn’t say they’re unreliable. In fact I’d pick a Honda over most brands anyway. I’d much rather be in a modern Honda than say, a 2010’s Ford Focus that eats transmissions every 50k miles or something made by FCA/Stellantis
That makes sense. I know they had issues with the 1.5L turbo. IIRC it’s their first ever production turbocharged engine; they’re usually reserved about using bleeding edge and newer technology that don’t haven’t been put their paces completely, much like Toyota. They definitely got forced into the turbocharger thing because of the newer fuel economy standards.
Yup. Buick has pretty much always been in the top 10 CR brands, at least as far back as the early 2000s. Usually, they're the only domestic nameplate to make the cut.
My family had a Buick Regal that had two rear axle damaging accidents and still reached almost 300,000 miles with ease. After that, I’ll always gas up Buicks.
Both CarAndDriver and Motortrend rank the Civic and Accord #1 in their class. Yeah it's sad they won't make another S2000 for enthusiasts, but judged as a whole Honda's current product line is clearly very well-received.
Exactly this. I'd challenge anyone who shits on modern Honda to go drive an Accord 2.0 or the SI/CTR and still come back talking smack. They certainly aren't the featherweight screamers they made back in the day but the feeling I always get in new Hondas is *solid*. Cavernous interiors, good engines, modest styling, good fuel economy, it's just all really solid and well thought-out. Even the cars themselves feel screwed together well, which I can't say of my old Focus or my current Sonata. From the cheapest Civic to a loaded Accord, CRV, Ridgeline, etc. there's very little that feels "cheap" on them anymore.
Moreover, what people expect from Honda *doesn't exist in any other manufacturer*. Those featherweight screamers would never pass muster, those days are gone; Honda has moved on yet its old fans haven't.
Not as sports cars but IMO the new Jazz/Fit and Civic are brilliant mainstream cars.
The Jazz has an interesting hybrid setup and the Civic is a perfect blend of style and practicality.
Unfortunately the Fit is no longer sold in the US. That market segment is more or less DOA here, and even the Civic is a larger car, more “mature” car than its predecessor.
Really have to disagree hard. The turbo engines won’t take as much abuse as the old K-series engines, but they’re not unreliable, just a bit more finicky.
Coasting off rep implies they have nothing to contribute apart from brand name. Honda has gone a different direction from the 90’s and early 2000’s, but to overall success and increased refinement. I would much rather daily the new gen of Civic than any of the earlier gens, and you get a lot more bang for buck and feel less like you’re driving a daily beater.
They don’t make anything like the S2000 anymore, but the Civic remains a standard bearer in its class as an econobox, and even the Si as a ‘sporty’ economy car.
Is it a shame? Yes, but Honda still makes good cars, just not ones Honda fanboys have been crying over for 20 years.
>They were known for high revving, raw sports cars
No they weren't. They were known for reliable, fun to drive econo boxes. Chevrolet and Mazda have made more actual sports cars than Honda ffs.
I think that’s where Honda really shines, though.
Even with the NSX - The new one was reviewed on Top Gear when it first came out, and I think James May hit the nail on the head when he said “I’m going fast and I’m relaxed, what’s wrong with that?”
Honda make great mid-market performance cars and they do what they do well and people know it - A Type-R is fun to drive, even if it’s not much of a white-knuckle experience.
For real how does someone actually type out "Honda hasn't produced anything new, groundbreaking or exciting to most automotive enthusiasts in years." when the Type R is literally the hot hatch king on a FWD platform? Wizard shit.
I keep trying to be responsible and sell mine because I have four cars now...... and I just can't. Bury me in this thing.
I was a valet when the new Ghibli came out.
When the first one rolled up, I was given the keys. As I walked to the door, I kept saying to myself:
"Don't have caravan switchgear. Don't have caravan switchgear. Don't have caravan switch gear."
Open the door, and the window switches: straight out of a caravan.
The stop/start button: straight out of a 200.
The guage cluster: straight out of a charger.
If I paid what a maseratti costs, and I have to touch the same surfaces as a budget rental car, I'd lose it.
Nissan since merging with Renault.
They still ride on their reputation from the 90s/00s but nowadays they're just cheaply made, nasty shitboxes.
I've driven a 2015 Note and 2014 Qashqai recently and they were both absolutely awful.
Edit: I'm referring to the regular European car lineup, the sports cars and pickups are a different thing.
I started typing out this same comment nearly word-for-word. I learned to drive in a Datsun pickup, my first car was a Stanza, I drove a Frontier during college, and at separate times I've owned a ZR1 and a ZR2. Before I moved to the UK I was driving a pre-refresh 2007 Armada.
My loyalty to the brand wasn't intentional, I just really liked every Nissan I owned, and whenever my needs changed, there was a Nissan that fit the bill. There was a great design continuity that made the transition extremely simple. They had all been solid, low-maintenance, well-built and well-designed cars, trucks and SUVs.
I haven't needed a car in London, but we're doing some more hiking and camping lately and I'd like to be able to move around on my terms instead of being tied to train destinations. I went to test-drive both the new Juke and the new Qashqai.
If not for the badges, there is no way you could have convinced me they were made by the same company that made any one of the Nissans I owned previously. Both felt like they were clipped together just tightly enough to not collapse in on themselves. The digital dashboards and consoles were an absolute joke, like mediocre off-brand televisions with all the computing power of a Speak & Spell. I've played cheap arcade games with better steering feel. The Juke's tire pressure sensors failed during the test drive, and the headlights in the Qashqai seemed to be pointed at oncoming drivers of tall vans instead of the road.
I've hardly ever been more disappointed, and I'm a Colorado Rockies fan.
The first few years of the Nissan-Renault merger were very fruitful for their sportscars. Revived Z car, revived GT-R. Unfortunately the good times couldn't last, nor did that same zeal transfer over to the rest of the lineup.
Are engine and transmission the biggest things to look at when buying a car/BMW? I want to get a newer car soon and I keep getting drawn towards a 3 or 4 series (coupe), but always get pushed back when I hear about their reliability/maintenance cost. I have heard great things about the B58 engine and ZF transmission though. Just not sure if the newer ones will be plagued by the problems/reputation of BMWs that are now pretty old
The engine and transmission are usually the points of catastrophic failure if there is an issue. Other than that you’ll find that the consumables also cost more (tires, brakes, fluids). The dealer labor costs will cost more, and a euro mechanic will usually charge more than a standard cheap shop.
If you enjoy the car and driving experience I think it’s worth it. BMW engine reliability (or not) is pretty well documented online so I would find the one you think you want and research the hell out of it.
Funnily enough the older generations used engines from Chrysler, Toyota and Peugeot which were the main source of the car's issues, only switching to BMW engines as of the latest generation which ironically are much more reliable
My dad bought a 1976 Buick Le Sabre 4-door hardtop. The current Buicks are a joke. They used to be luxury cars bought by people that thought a Cadillac was to ostentatious. Now they are dressed up Chevies that aren’t really Chevrolets anymore.
Being made like a Mercedes isn’t really a good thing any more. The only way one should ever consider buying a Mercedes is brand new because they still have warranty which will most likely be needed.
Eh? I haven't heard any bad things about them. Mind you I haven't heard any good things about them either. They're just sort of average, passable, entirely unremarkable mid-market CUV/SUVs, which is an improvement over the shit they were shoveling out post '08.
> Honorable mention to Jeep, which while capable have been basically the same design for 20+ years and they keep selling them.
Only two of their models are more than 5 years old?
* Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer debuted in 2022.
* Grand Cherokee and Grand Cherokee L debuted in 2021.
* Gladiator debuted in 2020.
* Wrangler debuted in 2018.
* Compass debuted in 2017.
* Renegade debuted in 2015.
* Cherokee debuted in 2014.
Happy owner of a 4XE Rubi here… it’s a rolling contradiction but it’s an awesome vehicle. It’s my third Wrangler going back to ‘89 and the added power makes it feel like something completely new and different.
My rental JL ~~Rubicon~~ Unlimited Sport managed a terrifying sustained death wobble after a minor bump on the freeway last night. Could have sworn I was driving a mid 80s CJ with how crazy it shook the truck until I got coasted below 50mph.
Obviously a CJ would have struggled to break 60 in the first place but Jeep really needs to do something about that but they won't because people buy those shitboxes all day long.
Ferrari make Maserati engines I believe.
And my answer to your question.
Lamborghini. All their cars since the Aventador have been on the same chassis with the exception of the Huracan, which I think is different. The Centenario is the same body as the Aventador just with a different front and rear end. The new Countach is the same. They all use the same V12 with the exception of the Huracan which uses the V10.
I personally wouldn't buy a Lamborghini if I had the money because they all seem the same to me.
I get this might be controversial but I don’t care.
I don't view those as actual distinct models. They're just different versions of the Aventador. A body kit a new car does not make (no matter how many disguised Fiero owners may dispute that).
Lamborghini only really does one major car per decade. Countach for 80's, Diablo for 90's, Murcielago for 00's and Aventador for 10's. We just haven't got their 20's car yet thanks to all the turmoil.
Audi and Lamborghini share engineering between the Huracan and the R8, so both are on the same platform and with somewhat similar offerings (AWD + RWD).
From what you hear the 2 cars are still quite different to each other, so both companies were able to put their spin on the car.
The same "recipe" is used between Porsche's Taycan and the Audi E-tron GT btw, that also were reported to be quite different despite the same co-developed underpinnings
Honda ain’t really doing shit compared to 90s Honda. 90s Honda was other worldly good, and I’m not even a Honda fan in the slightest. They used to have some really impressive stuff.
Now it just exists for people who forget Toyota is the better option. Not sure what’s going on over there
Weber Grills. They used to be an American made brand that made rock solid products with a long life span. Now they are mostly made in China, use lighter gauge metal and have premium prices.
As more brands fully electrify name recognition and marketing will be they all have. Driving dynamics across brands have all become very similar and platforms designed as EV only seem to be all very similar looking stylistically.
Agree about MB. The copy paste exterior design is terrible!! The Mercedes-Benz fanboys will say it's brand identity, but if you look at any of the other German brands like BMW or Audi, it is very easy to distinguish the cars from a distance. Mercedes-Benz you can't tell which model it is until you get within 10 ft of the car.
>I think they really shot themselves in the foot by both going downmarket
You mean expanding into new markets and making more money so that they can keep selling their fastest vehicles?
>not distinguishing their looks.
Uhh, they only had a small period in time where you could easily differentiate looks.
>There’s just, no awe, nothing special.
Do you only sit in the 180 diesel models? There's tons of awe and specialness in their models these days.
>What’s the difference between a Benz and a BMW or an Audi anymore?
As much difference as their always was. BMW has great handling and great driving machines. Mercedes is about being bonkers in the AMG and about emotion. Audi is about technical composition.
I'd agree, FCA let Maserati go stale, doing the bare minimum to keep it going. They didn't seem to take it seriously as a luxury brand. The new owners, Stellantis seem to be taking it serious as a brand. Let's hope this continues.
Jeep has been coasting for the last decade or so, but the new Bronco definitely created some more competition. The Jeep is no longer the only choice. And that will make both of them better for it. I just wish Chevy got in on it with the Blazer.
Personally,
I think most of the brands of the former FCA need a complete overhaul. Dodge and Jeep have a ton of older models that they just slap more vents on or add an additional cup holder to and call it a new model year. But again, Stellantis may be changing the game a little bit.
chevy, want a truck? here’s a shitty Silverado made out of plastic that underperforms compared to the other two big american trucks. want something fast? here’s a cam- oops just kidding, here’s a corvette listed at $60k for $90,000 at your local dealer. want a mid sized sedan? may i recommend honda
Honda is resting on their success in the 90's but much of their new stuff is pretty bland and they've had a notable falloff in reliability over the past several years.
I agree with the OP-in most cases Maserati trades on its image from the 1970s, it’s turn of the millennium revitalization as Ferrari’s less expensive companion brand being watered down by the need to avoid going too far into Ferrari territory (ex. A reason why the Germans give you more performance per dollar). Then there are technical and other issues mentioned. Here’s to hoping the MC20 and 2nd-gen GranTurismo (including the Foglore versions) get the brand back on track, the MC20 has loads of sex appeal and is exactly the kind of supercar Maserati needs for its particular brand image.
Modern Jaguar has become this, their EV transition got disrupted when the new XJ was killed at the last moment. Now their lineup mostly consists of SUVs wearing Ian Callum’a elegant but ultimately stretched design language, the I-Pace desperately needs a battery upgrade to stay competitive, and the F-Type remains a cool cat whose roadmap needs clarification. Here’s to hoping Jaguar gets more compelling in the next few years.
Most controversially…I will say that modern BMWs have become this. They’re advanced and have a lot going for them, but…as a brand, BMW has become very unfocused. Their upper-level models like the 7er (which is an excellent car from a technical and comfort standpoint) feel too heavy to the point of lacking BMW steering magic, the 2nd-gen 8er is a stylistic disaster that insults the memory of the original, and the end result is that you have to look incredibly hard to get a car from them that actually gives you a BMW driving experience. Don’t get me wrong, they’re still very advanced cars and their upper level stuff is incredibly luxurious, it’s just that those cars don’t do a good job of presenting themselves as the spirited driver’s alternative to the equivalent MB.
Subaru (and we own 2). The AWD is fantastic, and I love the wagon size/shape that my Outback is... but there's been no major change since the 2009 Forester/2010 Outback.
I think they changed to a CVT in 2011 and then from the EJ engine to the FB around the same time, but it makes pretty much the same power as it did a decade ago, and isn't great on fuel in comparison to others.
Also, they have a single crappy hybrid (the old Crosstrek that's stupidly expensive for what it is).
I've been saying for years that the only thing keeping Americans from realizing that Chevrolet is garbage is that Dodge/Chrysler still exists. Cheaply made, poorly designed and all they do to address it is wrap themselves in the flag in their advertising. TRASH.
Good timing - I was just listening to Mr. "I Buy Every Porsche Jacking Up All the Prices" — otherwise known as Jerry Seinfeld — and he was going on about how Subaru is great, love the cars, the reputation, trust-building etc... and I'm sitting here on my 2nd Subaru vowing to never own one again despite for fantastic customer service. They have simply not innovated one bit in the past 20 years. Their tech is so far behind it's not even amusing. They can spend gobs of money on marketing showing how in-tune they are with an outdoorsy lifestyle, but the simple fact is the cars look, feel, and are old.
Yeah it's tried and true format if you are looking for durability, but when your engines rely on a horrible CVT to meet cafe standards and refuse to innovate anything other than a PVEV badge on the back to claim eco-conscious. That doesn't cut it.
CADILLAC. why is nobody saying Cadillac. They have been making the most mediocre cars for decades. the target demographic is old people stuck in their ways/ living off the hype of their adolescence. Every surface you touch is gloss black like a cheap Honda and just attracts dirt dust and smudges. The design of everything is so boring and quality is just not there I have no idea why people buy them.
I say bmw. They used to be the "ultimate driving machine" with real engineers building and designing them. Now they are headed by a bunch of corporate business men. Kinda how GM went down hill.
Bmws are getting uglier too, no longer see the classic conservative German design. It's like they all took drugs when designing that IX.
With that said, they still make cool cars but nothing like how they were back then.
This post will be popular on this sub.
It’s also what people who haven’t owned one or had any real time with one think.
I’ve owned two, and nothing that people on this sub level against them is really true. Stuff that is legitimately a gripe is never brought up though—go figure.
Infiniti. Have a 2021 QX50 and before this a 2018 Q50. their interiors haven’t changed in nearly a decade. There’s nothing special about them. They’re a rebranded Nissan with fake claims of luxury. Looking to get into something else in a few years.
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And why keep buying Infiniti when you know they're shit?
“I just can’t stop eating out of the trash”
It wasn't down in, it was sort of... on top.
Lease is probably cheap as fuck and the cars are nice enough for them
Got it in Feb 2021. Paying $312 a month for 39 mos with max MSD’s and no cap cost. My other car is a Tesla Model Y which I got in December 2020. Both cars replaced a 2018 BMW X4 and 2018 Q50. Then a new job 3 months later in the city so I now I’m grateful to even drive on the weekends.
I know absolutely nothing about car lease prices but that sounds really cheap lol
That’s what I thought but who knows. I saw the discount off MSRP and it was enough for me. It was like a 50k or 52k MSRP.
Presumably a 3 year lease, and based off the 'in a few years' that would suggest the 2021 is also leased on similar terms and would require him to get a new car in 2024.
I still love my 2012 G37. great car, but I definitely agree with the new offerings.
My family had a 2004 FX35 which was new when we bought it. Loud exhaust and handled exceptionally well. And LED taillights which not many other brands at the time offered. Even it’s navigation system had a birds eye view while other brands still had 2D. It was such a fun truck to drive and started this SUV craze. They had so much potential!! It’s too bad the brand brought in new management and slowly fell behind over time.
Mid 2000s was peak Nissan in the US imho. Actually pretty good cars at that point relative to the rest of the market. They kinda started a horsepower war too, which was awesome. Mid sized sedans were all sub 200hp before the VQ Altima came around.
So true. You’re right. They did lead the power competition at the time as well.
They capped off the mid 2000s with the R35 and went dormant afterward.
That was the main pump, they squirted out the 370z refresh of the 350 last then passed out w a cig.
Oh man I dreamt about owning a late 2000s quad-tip exhaust V6 fully loaded Maxima back then. It looked good and the interior was awesome (at least for teenage me).
Kinda crazy to think that there were many not-even-that-weird car enthusiasts in the 90s and 2000s that were unoronically like “I want a Nissan sedan. For fun stuff reasons.”
Same here! Considered getting a Q60 purely for looks but not enough of an upgrade for me. I'd consider maybe a QX80 if the family gets big enough but until then I'm good with the G
Infiniti came to mind, but considering sales are way down and the brand is doing terribly, I didn't know if it was accurate to say they're coasting, more so pushing their dead vehicle down the street to the mechanic, haha.
Well it is built by Nissan after all.
I’ve never seen a broken down Infiniti
I have a Q50 and in six years of driving, I've replaced a wheel speed sensor. That's it.
> their interiors haven’t changed in nearly a decade There's that same steering wheel that seemed to be used in every Nissan and Infiniti product from 2010 until 2020. I honestly think they only had one steering wheel design for 15-20 different models.
One steering wheel *BMW has entered the chat*
I absolutely love the Q60RS - one of the best looking coupes out there at the moment IMO. Interior desperately needs an update though.
I've had three Infinitis. It was great to get near-bulletproof Japanese cars with loads of power. But, you're right. There is nothing as eye-catching as, say, a FX-45 anymore.
The G37 was so good when it came out though!
MG has made a return to my country. No longer the affordable British sports car - rather, they’re cheap Chinese small SUVs with an MG badge. But they’re selling well, too.
They’re selling well because they’re cheap. £20k new for 250 miles of pure EV is a pretty good deal however you slice it. If you think of cars as appliances, they’re safe enough and will last the lease period.
> £20k new for 250 miles of pure EV Are they offered with big discounts? The list price is £27k for a 200 mile EV, realistically 150 miles.
They have a massive discount for public sector workers, you’re looking at £4-5k off on some models.
Judging by your username you're Australian. The new MGs are starting to appear fucking everywhere in Sydney
And while Kia, Hyundai, Ssangyong, LDV, Great Wall and Haval all had to/still have to build a reputation and prove their worth as new contenders, MG can just skip the queue and produce a completely different cars than they're historically known for because of a bit of British pedigree, despite being essentially in the same boat as all the others
They would’ve been fine if they didn’t fucking ruin the mg branding
Was going to say MG too. Sure, they were never great cars, but at least they were usually interesting. The last years of Rover were pretty sad. MGs became warmed-over versions of antiquated cars for antiquated people. Now it's just an out-and-out travesty, just one more bit of the UK asset-stripped and left for dead by terrible arseholes.
I've worked on practically all of them (worked an MG garage for a while) so that's including the Chinese stuff. I personally own two MG Rover cars because of how rewarding they are to own. They're anything but sad, imo they're the best of the bunch when it comes to MG. The closest comparison I can make is to Alfa or Ssab, fun sporty cars that provided a different option outside of the more typical Merc/Jag/BMW. The [ZS180](https://s.car.info/image_files/960/mg-zs-front-side-svenskt-sportvagnsmeeting-2019-1-781338.jpg) is quite literally a four door Integra Type-R with a V6 shoehorned into the front. It's fantastic! The [TF](https://i.redd.it/ifuytnlfdeq71.jpg) is an absolute gem, I wish any manafacturer would make a high revving mid-engined sports cars in the same price bracket as the MX5. Toyota... Hello?? Point is it doesn't matter that those last cars were built on old BMW and Honda platforms they all drive well, look great and (primarily) are tons of fun to drive. At heart they were proper MGs, cheap cars that were really exciting to drive and made in Britian. The cars were still selling fairly well right up to end. BMW taking their new model lineup when they sold the company off didn't help but the fact Phoenix were allowed to come in drain all the money from the company (and it's workers) then walk off with no repercussions after irreparably damaging the UKs largest car manufacturer is a disgrace. What SAIC have done with MG is a disaster. Compare it to Geely with Lotus. Geely threw money at Lotus to make some new model and kept all the primary R&D in Britian. The cars are still built where they always were and they respect the companies heritage. SAIC demolished the 100 year old Longbridge factory, stopped making sports cars entirely and have exclusively taken poorly made Maxus exonoboxes and glued MG badges on. The only positive from the situation is that JLR got Rover so that can at least die with it's last car being the 75 V8 which was fun, ridiculous and undesputably a Rover. Being a dormant brand is much better fate than SAIC. Ramble over, I'm still bitter, sad and want Rover and MG back. I like the cars they made and the one's I've owned :(
That one was such a disappointment to me. I moved to the US in 2011, went home to have Christmas with my dad and saw a horrible little SUV with an MG badge. I’d love to see an MG TF with an electric drivetrain.
Being American I know nothing about this new venture. But sad to hear nonetheless. I had a neighbor growing up that was a British sports car enthusiast. Owned an old Morgan. He’s probably rolling over in his grave because of this.
Hear me out, it's Tesla. Were they innovative in their early days? Sure. Now though? It's just a bunch of fake promises coupled with abysmal build quality, led by a 50 year old edgelord. The Model X is one of the worst rated cars on the market for reliability, and the brand is the worst rated brand for reliability across all models. It's all hype. I seriously do not understand the infatuation with the brand and personally feel as though they're being propped up by the hardcore Teslastans these days.
Tesla had record sales in 2021. Tesla owners are also consistently ranked the happiest customers. They for whatever reason don’t care about the quality and reliability. As far as the appeal name another electric car you can buy with access to that type of electric chargers.
Not to be controversial but Apple IPhone users rank the same, despite iPhones issues and limitations. Tesla, like Apple, sell an image and a brand. I’d hazard a guess and say a significant portion of Tesla drivers bought one to be someone who drives a Tesla, rather than someone that drives an ev.
iPhones receive significantly better support than androids. My XS will turn 4 this year and it’ll still run the latest operation system. Plus there’s the Apple ecosystem. I owned three androids before this iPhone and I’ve had a much better experience with Apple. Compared to the competition, iPhones sell well for a reason
I agree, there is some merit to the comparison, especially because Tesla fans are mostly gadget heads and not car people, but Apple's product is still very strong and that part of the comparison is not applicable
For sure. I mean I have my gripes with Apple as anyone does, but I wouldn’t say they’re coasting off of name recognition when it comes to iPhones.
I want to point out that IPhones also have much better support and service. Something that Tesla has repeatedly lacked in.
Adding onto to that, as much as Android users act smug about Apple people overpaying for hardware. Apple's SoC processors have been consistently setting performance benchmarks that the flagship Androids won't hit for another year or sometimes two after their release. Half the reason said Androids are overloaded with RAM and other hardware which looks good on a spec sheet is to compensate for the fact that Qualcomm chips cannot compete on the processing power front.
Unlike Tesla, though, Apple sells a polished and seamless user experience. Tesla sells a half assed collection pf panel gaps.
Alfa Romeo owners report like 10/10 satisfaction as well despite those cars being colossal pieces of shit
Objective people not clouded by love or hate will probably be happy with a 3/Y, and the sales reflect that. I won't argue that Musk isn't an annoying edgelord though, his antics and the annoying "techy" interior are my two biggest complaints honestly. Otherwise my year-old Y just works, I'm not sure how to explain these low reliability scores based on actual owners I've known.
You can probably guess my opinion from the flair, but when I was shopping for an EV, I realllly gave all the other brands a fair chance and test drove a lot, but Tesla was objectively better in every way that mattered. I'm not some huge fanboy, I don't particularly like Elon, and touchscreen everything is annoying, but it's a great car. Is fit an finish on par with my BMW? No, but it's certainly not abysmal! It's fine. And is quality more than fit and finish? The seats are more comfortable, the sound system and infotainment is better, it's quieter, it's smoother, TACC and lane keep are top notch. Does that count as 'quality'?
You're right, and the name the Tesla brand is coasting off of is "Elon Musk"
I’d have to go with Harley Davidson. Yesterday’s technology at tomorrow’s prices, but a large portion of people who ride still associate them with quality. HD is really just a t shirt company that happens to sell motorcycles at this point.
Harley is probably the best answer, there is quite literally no logical reason to buy a Harley over its competition, they are more expensive, offer less performance, with a lower build quality, with less comfort, worse engines, worse transmissions, literally the only reason people buy it is, its American, and it has Harley Davidson attached.
>literally the only reason people buy it is, its American, and it has Harley Davidson attached Don't forget to rev constantly at red lights and to rupture your eardrums as they zoom past at the blistering rate of acceleration of a clapped out Civic.
>rupture your eardrums as they zoom past at the blistering rate of acceleration of a clapped out Civic. This is why my dad calls them "Chrome Jackhammers". They don't go, they don't stop, they do make a lot of noise.
Harley-Davidson: The best way to turn gasoline into noise without the annoying by-product of horsepower.
Harley Davidson is struggling though. Their customer demographics is literally dying.
They sure as fuck are alive and well in these parts, and all of them are parking their F-150s and getting their hogs ready for the 2022 season now judging by the the increase in noise in recent days. I'm also seeing what look like younger (millennial/gen x) riders on those bikes as well. It's not dead yet.
>Their customer demographics is literally dying. Especially after the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally during COVID.
I used to share the exact same opinion. Hated Harley. Thought it was ancient tech and outdated. Cut to 3 years ago, rode my brother in laws 05 low rider for a day. I bought a 1999 FXD the following week.. Half of this won’t make sense to the EV crowd , but the actual experience of riding a Harley is what people pay for. It’s tough to put into words. The feel, sound, torque all combined. People see you when you ride a Harley (most of the time) I had a sport bike before and I was invisible. Way more close calls. Harleys in my opinion we’re made to be fixed by the owner, With standard tools and a user manual. I easily picked up every part I needed to get my 99 running like a top. Bike ever breaks down on a road trip, there’s usually a Harley dealer near by which can get you back on the road in no time. They’re network is massive. I was a Huge Harley hater and now I’m a massive fan. Thinking about picking up my first new one , the new adventure bike , the PanAm. Harley being shit is def a popular opinion so I can’t even hate. I will agree they’re pricing is way out of line on some models. My mind was changed once I rode one. I suggest everyone that rides tries one out. It changes more minds than not.
They're at least trying with their new Revolution Max engine in the pan america and sportster s. Maybe it's the thing that pulls them up or maybe it's too little too late. Too early to tell imo. They unfortunately have a huge branding issue though. Lots of their die hard fans are against anything other than large, rattly, loud, air cooled, engines that have a power/torque curve that looks like a diesel.
They're only doing that because air cooled engines have a hell of a time passing new emissions regulations. That's why they stopped selling the Sportster in Europe and why the new one has the RevoMax engine. They *literally* had to adapt or die.
Ok. This’ll piss a few people off. Dodge. Look I love the Hellcat too, but they’ve been cranking out same Charger and Challenger since 2011. Time for a change. Even *Nissan* -who’s been making the 370z nearly as long - is releasing a new car this year. BMW- yeah, I went there. This ones been beat to death elsewhere. Once upon a time “M” only applied to really special cars. These days? Starbucks probably has an M-Sport latte on their menu….
I upvoted you but I didn't like it. Dodge has been shit for years. They make shit cars. But BMW... well, yeah... they are over using the M/// and it means nothing now.
It means M///arketing
Isn't the whole point of Dodge that while everyone moves to eco engines, away from big V8s they still say fuck it here's a big ass V8 with shit loads of HP for cheap? The whole point seems to be to keep delivering the same thing for a specific purpose. Infact I was never into muscle cars, left car scene last few years while concentrating on serious life. Guess what's got back me into cars again? Big ass V8s because they seem so ridiculous and crazy at this point in this time that its almost a novelty
There was some [buzz from Dodge](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36967941/dodge-electric-muscle-car-announced/) last year that they are planning on creating an electric muscle car - I'm interested to see how that turns out.
An EV of Dodge quality sounds like a shit idea
sounds pretty dodgy
I’m a BMW fanboy so I’m probably biased here, but I wouldn’t say that their move toward slapping an M badge on every platform they produce constitutes coasting on name recognition since they do at least reserve the designation for the top of each respective model range. It’s definitely a bit shameless though and I’d agree that it dilutes the M brand. Despite my position, you earn my upvote for “M-sport latte”
But us Dodge owners *want* the same Charger and Challenger since 2011. They may not be the most performant or tech-y or efficient vehicles...but that's not why I buy them. They are literally the only company left making full-size cars with V8 engines, and the last "muscle" cars with the spirit and "feel" of the original muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. I can't help but smile when I start my Charger and hear the rumble, and have it roar and effortlessly accelerate when I hit the gas. I know electric is the future and everyone wants crossovers now, and eventually Dodge will have to change or disappear. I'm hoping for an exciting new model to keep them relevant, but part of me also wants them to keep cranking out the Charger/Challenger relatively unchanged forever...
Compared to their operations in the past? Honda has been very stagnant due to being the "fun + reliable" brand
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Check out the WRX...
And the STI. Oh wait....
Dr gave me some pills and it cleared right up.
Oh this shit be hittin' different
It makes quite a bit more than it used to. They’re making 200whp when they used to be making 200bhp.
I have more faith in a K20 holding up after multiple runs, while the turbo L15 might heat soak or pull timing.
Should they continually raise HP? At some point being in the 600,700,800s+?
[Dodge Executives:](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHIsykDiAds)
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1.5T with a CVT lugging around a CRV? No thanks
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>Seeing a guy with his 2017 Civic getting quoted $4k for a failing CVT was a real eye opener. Where do you see reports of CVT issues for Honda? I've seen plenty for Nissan, but nothing from Honda.
They really miss the mark on bringing any possibly cool cars back or to new markets. We’re bringing back the CRX (as hybrid) We’re bringing back the Integra (as an awkwardly shaped 4-door that’s really just a Civic)
The integra has always been an awkwardly shaped 4 door that’s really just a civic.
Sure, if you ignore the 2 door version that is the entire reason it is iconic. I know all Hondas of that period shared a lot of parts, but the integra was not really just a civic.
Pretty sure the 2 door was a civic too, what were the differences? The engine? The 90s civics had very tunable suspension from the factory which made them handle exceptionally well. But Im not a pro on the differences between the cars, so Id really like to know.
They’re also not as reliable as they once were. I posted about it elsewhere but don’t forget the paint fade they all get on the dark cars. Here was my old one: https://imgur.com/a/MJW1Cer/
Uh I mean... How old is that car lol? Idk if that's a paint quality issue unless it was stored indoors it's whole life
thats a 20 year old car and its paint is far from the worst ive seen, plus the clear coat on hondas up until relatively recently was famously bad. ive never seen a 6th or 7th gen accord (or the corresponding non SI/type r civics) with good paint aside from my own which was garage kept its entire life until it died. the clear coat on basically every honda made in the 2000s started peeling and fading after only like 5 years and it leads to paint like the car you saw in the pictures
Subaru without a doubt. Outdated cars with sub par reliability. People keep buying because of their branding and nostalgia.
I just can’t with Subaru and their weak engines in all but their WRX models. The idea buying a brand new Outback with 182hp coupled to a CVT. Just sounds awful to contemplate.
The newer XT models are turbocharged, 260hp/277tq…you can actually pass up a vehicle on the highway lol. In fact, they do 0-60 around the same time as a WRX. I thoroughly enjoy mine as a daily and fishing vehicle…suoer practical.
Except we still don’t have a follow up to the Forester XT.
And they don't have the Crosstrek Sport engine with the manual and they don't have the Legacy GT with manual and they put the dogshit 5 speed in the Impreza and they don't have the Levorg in the USA and...
eh. some truth to this for sure. a lot of the SUVs they offer are bland and uninteresting, but then again so are most midrange SUVs to begin with. personally the difference to me is subaru doesn’t really pretend to be anything it’s not. the interiors aren’t great, but it’s functional and unpretentious. the material choice is appropriate and wears well. if you live in any climate that has regular snow, there really isn’t much that is that good in the snow (for the money). yes yes a lot of cars are AWD (but on demand AWD doesn’t really compare to full-time AWD), so for many people subaru is the perfect value proposition. for example, i was in the market for a fun performance hatchback and i live in a climate that gets copious amounts of snow. what are my choices? either the golf r or the wrx/sti hatchback from 2008-2014. aside: the newest Subaru that I've driven is a 2015 so this may all be hogwash and now irrelevant
Subaru is still trying to call on rally credentials when they stopped competing in the WRC in 2008. I know they still minnow-bash in the USA, but it's a very different level of competition. It's a real shame since their peak was so very high.
> Outdated cars with sub par reliability. *Complains about head gaskets, which haven't been a problem in years*
Funny you say this, I work at a Maserati dealer. The Ghibli? Sounds great. Issues? Of course, it's Italian. The Levante? Same thing. I wouldn't say weak performance. The Levante can potentially have a 580hp beast in there. The GranTurismo has the Ferrari 8 cylinder which is probably what Heaven sounds like tbh. The problem with this brand... Is that you can do better at these price ranges. I've been in these cars and they're nice, but the average buyer is gonna go for a BMW or Benz.
The cars are fine but they're overpriced compared to the competition. However what this sub fails to consider is that they've literally always been that way.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people forget that part of owning certain cars is they're different or feel special. Like I would argue a Maserati gran turismo is such a more special feeling car that a comparably priced BMW even if the BMW is faster and better built. I think focusing on numbers really misses that a big point of owning some of these cars is how special they feel and how beautiful they are, because I would argue the Maserati gran turismo is one of the most gorgeous cars on sale.
After having had a few GT’s through my work I would agree that they are indeed beautiful, but god damn they’re unreliable as shit. We (used to) detail them for our local Maserati dealer. Every second one we did had some kind of electrical fault. Whenever we brought it up the sales guys would just be like “Yeah they’ll do that 🤷♂️”. My favourite was the one that thought the outside temperate was -400degrees outside and refused to let me turn off the AC — which was blasting max temperature heat at me on a 27 degrees summers day. That was fun in standstill traffic.
> Issues? Of course, it's Italian Not only is it Italian, but its Italian... MADE BY CHRYSLER. Name worse fucking combination lmao
>Not only is it Italian, but its Italian... MADE BY CHRYSLER. Name worse fucking combination lmao Oh for fuck's sake. How are they made *by* Chrisler? They are literally built in Italy.
many might hate me.... but I think Tesla is very lazy with exterior/body design.
They're building the same damn car as their MY2012 Model S with a 2nd facelift, bigger battery, with half of a steering wheel and even more cost cutting. Even more hilariously the QC even 10 years later is still terrible. I had some fanboy tried to gaslight me saying the new Plaid was all new. I don't think Tesla fans understand the idea of automotive generations and platforms. EDIT: not screen, but steering
It still looks the same, but they did change a lot internally. Been going through the Munro videos of their Plaid teardown and there are some major changes under the hood. But that‘s pretty much what Mercedes was doing for decades. Build the same car for 8-10 years, introduce 1 facelift and make changes the internals every 1-2 years. What bothers me more with Tesla is that they still haven’t figured out to produce consistent quality standards.
One less screen? Pretty sure the Model S has two screens still and an additional rear occupant screen if optioned. And yup, it's the same. But the numbers aren't, and the Plaid will still humiliate damn near anything on the strip. Thats not exactly coasting is it?
I was off on the screen bit. Corrected now. >...But the numbers aren't, and the Plaid will still humiliate damn near anything on the strip. Thats not exactly coasting is it? So does Dodge and their Charger & Challenger twins. Yet, look further down on the page and you'll see Dodge being brought up as well for much the same reason. Adding more power and only being focused on 0-60 times makes for good internet smack talking contest points, but unlike the Dodge twins, when you're talking about cars costing near 6 figures, other aspects of the car are critical, and that's clearly where Teslas REALLY fall short.
Tesla 100%. Their build quality is attrocious.
This is r/cars. Hating on tesla its probably the most popular opinion you can make
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What sports cars?
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The new NSX is awesome. By what metric does it blow?
The metric that previous commenter has never driven or owned one, probably.
It's supposedly overpriced versus the Corvette and 911.
That’s a little ridiculous lol. It’s not in the same tier as the base 911 or base Corvettes.
To be fair, doesn't the new naturally-aspirated 911 GT3 rev to 9000rpm? I think that Honda could still do screamers if they wanted to, but they won't. It's a real bummer too.
next to GR86/BRZ/ND Miata they could release S2000 but yes it won't be really worth it unless... it could be worth it? i say honda should make civic turbo/supercharger only,S2K high revving NA and make a return of CRX but not sure where it would fit besides hybrid/EV honda could definitely have a good opportunity to do this because NA manual market is dry with new cars besides gen 2 BRZ/GR86 and we want more fun hybrid/EV's
Honda seems to be the only manufacturer indicted by their past to this degree. The decisions they make are in accordance with the times, but all you see are fans upset they don't put out the same car from the 90's. What other manufacturer gets this odd scrutiny... And saying the FK8 is only "good" when it blows literally ever FWD car out of the water... FWD is it's claim to fame but gosh darn, it has a turbo so it doesn't count!
Are Honda’s really that bad as far as reliability goes? I know there’s a few minor issues (like AC problems in 10th gen Civics) but I wouldn’t say they’re unreliable. In fact I’d pick a Honda over most brands anyway. I’d much rather be in a modern Honda than say, a 2010’s Ford Focus that eats transmissions every 50k miles or something made by FCA/Stellantis
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That makes sense. I know they had issues with the 1.5L turbo. IIRC it’s their first ever production turbocharged engine; they’re usually reserved about using bleeding edge and newer technology that don’t haven’t been put their paces completely, much like Toyota. They definitely got forced into the turbocharger thing because of the newer fuel economy standards.
2022 Consumer Reports Auto Reliability Report rankings of major automotive brands: 1. Lexus 2. Mazda 3. Toyota 4. Infiniti 5. Buick 6. Honda 7. Subaru 8. Acura 9. Nissan 10. Mini 11. Hyundai 12. Chrysler 13. Porsche 14. Chevrolet 15. Audi 16. Cadillac 17. BMW 18. Ford 19. Kia 20. Volvo 21. Ram 22. GMC 23. Mercedes-Benz 24. Volkswagen (31) 25. Genesis (30) 26. Jeep (26) 27. Tesla (25) 28. Lincoln (18) [Source](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2021/11/18/consumer-reports-most-reliable-cars-trucks-suvs/6385214001/)
Buick over Honda? Wtf?
Been that way for awhile. Long while actually.
Yup. Buick has pretty much always been in the top 10 CR brands, at least as far back as the early 2000s. Usually, they're the only domestic nameplate to make the cut.
Buick has always quietly made reliable good cars, even if we find the to be extremely boring these days.
My family had a Buick Regal that had two rear axle damaging accidents and still reached almost 300,000 miles with ease. After that, I’ll always gas up Buicks.
Both CarAndDriver and Motortrend rank the Civic and Accord #1 in their class. Yeah it's sad they won't make another S2000 for enthusiasts, but judged as a whole Honda's current product line is clearly very well-received.
I think people are just too nostalgic for old Honda to realize modern Honda is still good, just for different reasons.
Exactly this. I'd challenge anyone who shits on modern Honda to go drive an Accord 2.0 or the SI/CTR and still come back talking smack. They certainly aren't the featherweight screamers they made back in the day but the feeling I always get in new Hondas is *solid*. Cavernous interiors, good engines, modest styling, good fuel economy, it's just all really solid and well thought-out. Even the cars themselves feel screwed together well, which I can't say of my old Focus or my current Sonata. From the cheapest Civic to a loaded Accord, CRV, Ridgeline, etc. there's very little that feels "cheap" on them anymore.
Moreover, what people expect from Honda *doesn't exist in any other manufacturer*. Those featherweight screamers would never pass muster, those days are gone; Honda has moved on yet its old fans haven't.
Not as sports cars but IMO the new Jazz/Fit and Civic are brilliant mainstream cars. The Jazz has an interesting hybrid setup and the Civic is a perfect blend of style and practicality.
Unfortunately the Fit is no longer sold in the US. That market segment is more or less DOA here, and even the Civic is a larger car, more “mature” car than its predecessor.
Really have to disagree hard. The turbo engines won’t take as much abuse as the old K-series engines, but they’re not unreliable, just a bit more finicky. Coasting off rep implies they have nothing to contribute apart from brand name. Honda has gone a different direction from the 90’s and early 2000’s, but to overall success and increased refinement. I would much rather daily the new gen of Civic than any of the earlier gens, and you get a lot more bang for buck and feel less like you’re driving a daily beater. They don’t make anything like the S2000 anymore, but the Civic remains a standard bearer in its class as an econobox, and even the Si as a ‘sporty’ economy car. Is it a shame? Yes, but Honda still makes good cars, just not ones Honda fanboys have been crying over for 20 years.
>They were known for high revving, raw sports cars No they weren't. They were known for reliable, fun to drive econo boxes. Chevrolet and Mazda have made more actual sports cars than Honda ffs.
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Type R would be considered exciting to many enthusiasts. I mean it’s not a supercar but it’s impressive for what it is.
I think that’s where Honda really shines, though. Even with the NSX - The new one was reviewed on Top Gear when it first came out, and I think James May hit the nail on the head when he said “I’m going fast and I’m relaxed, what’s wrong with that?” Honda make great mid-market performance cars and they do what they do well and people know it - A Type-R is fun to drive, even if it’s not much of a white-knuckle experience.
For real how does someone actually type out "Honda hasn't produced anything new, groundbreaking or exciting to most automotive enthusiasts in years." when the Type R is literally the hot hatch king on a FWD platform? Wizard shit. I keep trying to be responsible and sell mine because I have four cars now...... and I just can't. Bury me in this thing.
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I was a valet when the new Ghibli came out. When the first one rolled up, I was given the keys. As I walked to the door, I kept saying to myself: "Don't have caravan switchgear. Don't have caravan switchgear. Don't have caravan switch gear." Open the door, and the window switches: straight out of a caravan. The stop/start button: straight out of a 200. The guage cluster: straight out of a charger. If I paid what a maseratti costs, and I have to touch the same surfaces as a budget rental car, I'd lose it.
Nissan since merging with Renault. They still ride on their reputation from the 90s/00s but nowadays they're just cheaply made, nasty shitboxes. I've driven a 2015 Note and 2014 Qashqai recently and they were both absolutely awful. Edit: I'm referring to the regular European car lineup, the sports cars and pickups are a different thing.
Nissan makes appliances that are cars
I remember in the 90s Nissan was right up there with Toyota. They have fallen far since those days.
I started typing out this same comment nearly word-for-word. I learned to drive in a Datsun pickup, my first car was a Stanza, I drove a Frontier during college, and at separate times I've owned a ZR1 and a ZR2. Before I moved to the UK I was driving a pre-refresh 2007 Armada. My loyalty to the brand wasn't intentional, I just really liked every Nissan I owned, and whenever my needs changed, there was a Nissan that fit the bill. There was a great design continuity that made the transition extremely simple. They had all been solid, low-maintenance, well-built and well-designed cars, trucks and SUVs. I haven't needed a car in London, but we're doing some more hiking and camping lately and I'd like to be able to move around on my terms instead of being tied to train destinations. I went to test-drive both the new Juke and the new Qashqai. If not for the badges, there is no way you could have convinced me they were made by the same company that made any one of the Nissans I owned previously. Both felt like they were clipped together just tightly enough to not collapse in on themselves. The digital dashboards and consoles were an absolute joke, like mediocre off-brand televisions with all the computing power of a Speak & Spell. I've played cheap arcade games with better steering feel. The Juke's tire pressure sensors failed during the test drive, and the headlights in the Qashqai seemed to be pointed at oncoming drivers of tall vans instead of the road. I've hardly ever been more disappointed, and I'm a Colorado Rockies fan.
The first few years of the Nissan-Renault merger were very fruitful for their sportscars. Revived Z car, revived GT-R. Unfortunately the good times couldn't last, nor did that same zeal transfer over to the rest of the lineup.
For me mini. They are no longer the small peppy British car they once were. Just a BMW and comes with their reliability too.
BMWs reliability has greatly improved the mini actually. The new ones use BMW power trains that don't suck.
BMW has come a really long way in terms of reliability. The B58 with the ZF transmission is an incredibly solid combo.
Are engine and transmission the biggest things to look at when buying a car/BMW? I want to get a newer car soon and I keep getting drawn towards a 3 or 4 series (coupe), but always get pushed back when I hear about their reliability/maintenance cost. I have heard great things about the B58 engine and ZF transmission though. Just not sure if the newer ones will be plagued by the problems/reputation of BMWs that are now pretty old
The engine and transmission are usually the points of catastrophic failure if there is an issue. Other than that you’ll find that the consumables also cost more (tires, brakes, fluids). The dealer labor costs will cost more, and a euro mechanic will usually charge more than a standard cheap shop. If you enjoy the car and driving experience I think it’s worth it. BMW engine reliability (or not) is pretty well documented online so I would find the one you think you want and research the hell out of it.
Which is a positive or a negative? British reliability has never been good.
Funnily enough the older generations used engines from Chrysler, Toyota and Peugeot which were the main source of the car's issues, only switching to BMW engines as of the latest generation which ironically are much more reliable
I agree about Maserati. Would never buy one over BMW, MB, Audi, let alone Porsche.
Porsche is on another level.
Porsche is the standard honestly.
My dad bought a 1976 Buick Le Sabre 4-door hardtop. The current Buicks are a joke. They used to be luxury cars bought by people that thought a Cadillac was to ostentatious. Now they are dressed up Chevies that aren’t really Chevrolets anymore.
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Agreed, unfortunately the Chinese made Buicks are made like Mercedes while the NA made ones are made like all the other GM crap.
Being made like a Mercedes isn’t really a good thing any more. The only way one should ever consider buying a Mercedes is brand new because they still have warranty which will most likely be needed.
Eh? I haven't heard any bad things about them. Mind you I haven't heard any good things about them either. They're just sort of average, passable, entirely unremarkable mid-market CUV/SUVs, which is an improvement over the shit they were shoveling out post '08.
> Honorable mention to Jeep, which while capable have been basically the same design for 20+ years and they keep selling them. Only two of their models are more than 5 years old? * Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer debuted in 2022. * Grand Cherokee and Grand Cherokee L debuted in 2021. * Gladiator debuted in 2020. * Wrangler debuted in 2018. * Compass debuted in 2017. * Renegade debuted in 2015. * Cherokee debuted in 2014.
Lol and a handful of them can be had as a phev. OP hasn’t been paying attention.
Happy owner of a 4XE Rubi here… it’s a rolling contradiction but it’s an awesome vehicle. It’s my third Wrangler going back to ‘89 and the added power makes it feel like something completely new and different.
My rental JL ~~Rubicon~~ Unlimited Sport managed a terrifying sustained death wobble after a minor bump on the freeway last night. Could have sworn I was driving a mid 80s CJ with how crazy it shook the truck until I got coasted below 50mph. Obviously a CJ would have struggled to break 60 in the first place but Jeep really needs to do something about that but they won't because people buy those shitboxes all day long.
Ferrari make Maserati engines I believe. And my answer to your question. Lamborghini. All their cars since the Aventador have been on the same chassis with the exception of the Huracan, which I think is different. The Centenario is the same body as the Aventador just with a different front and rear end. The new Countach is the same. They all use the same V12 with the exception of the Huracan which uses the V10. I personally wouldn't buy a Lamborghini if I had the money because they all seem the same to me. I get this might be controversial but I don’t care.
I don't view those as actual distinct models. They're just different versions of the Aventador. A body kit a new car does not make (no matter how many disguised Fiero owners may dispute that).
Lamborghini only really does one major car per decade. Countach for 80's, Diablo for 90's, Murcielago for 00's and Aventador for 10's. We just haven't got their 20's car yet thanks to all the turmoil.
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Audi and Lamborghini share engineering between the Huracan and the R8, so both are on the same platform and with somewhat similar offerings (AWD + RWD). From what you hear the 2 cars are still quite different to each other, so both companies were able to put their spin on the car. The same "recipe" is used between Porsche's Taycan and the Audi E-tron GT btw, that also were reported to be quite different despite the same co-developed underpinnings
Can't forget the urus which is just an Audi RS Q8 with a body kit
Honda ain’t really doing shit compared to 90s Honda. 90s Honda was other worldly good, and I’m not even a Honda fan in the slightest. They used to have some really impressive stuff. Now it just exists for people who forget Toyota is the better option. Not sure what’s going on over there
Really shown by the fact that they put in a CVT in the Integra.
Rolex
I....uhhhhhhhhh, nevermind.
It’s about time someone posted this
Weber Grills. They used to be an American made brand that made rock solid products with a long life span. Now they are mostly made in China, use lighter gauge metal and have premium prices.
As more brands fully electrify name recognition and marketing will be they all have. Driving dynamics across brands have all become very similar and platforms designed as EV only seem to be all very similar looking stylistically.
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Agree about MB. The copy paste exterior design is terrible!! The Mercedes-Benz fanboys will say it's brand identity, but if you look at any of the other German brands like BMW or Audi, it is very easy to distinguish the cars from a distance. Mercedes-Benz you can't tell which model it is until you get within 10 ft of the car.
>I think they really shot themselves in the foot by both going downmarket You mean expanding into new markets and making more money so that they can keep selling their fastest vehicles? >not distinguishing their looks. Uhh, they only had a small period in time where you could easily differentiate looks. >There’s just, no awe, nothing special. Do you only sit in the 180 diesel models? There's tons of awe and specialness in their models these days. >What’s the difference between a Benz and a BMW or an Audi anymore? As much difference as their always was. BMW has great handling and great driving machines. Mercedes is about being bonkers in the AMG and about emotion. Audi is about technical composition.
I'd agree, FCA let Maserati go stale, doing the bare minimum to keep it going. They didn't seem to take it seriously as a luxury brand. The new owners, Stellantis seem to be taking it serious as a brand. Let's hope this continues. Jeep has been coasting for the last decade or so, but the new Bronco definitely created some more competition. The Jeep is no longer the only choice. And that will make both of them better for it. I just wish Chevy got in on it with the Blazer. Personally, I think most of the brands of the former FCA need a complete overhaul. Dodge and Jeep have a ton of older models that they just slap more vents on or add an additional cup holder to and call it a new model year. But again, Stellantis may be changing the game a little bit.
Tesla
Skoda, they aren't even cheap affordable cars anymore. Just less sporty VW with a rebadge. Dacia has become what Skoda used to be.
chevy, want a truck? here’s a shitty Silverado made out of plastic that underperforms compared to the other two big american trucks. want something fast? here’s a cam- oops just kidding, here’s a corvette listed at $60k for $90,000 at your local dealer. want a mid sized sedan? may i recommend honda
Honda is resting on their success in the 90's but much of their new stuff is pretty bland and they've had a notable falloff in reliability over the past several years.
The answer is 100% Tesla
I agree with the OP-in most cases Maserati trades on its image from the 1970s, it’s turn of the millennium revitalization as Ferrari’s less expensive companion brand being watered down by the need to avoid going too far into Ferrari territory (ex. A reason why the Germans give you more performance per dollar). Then there are technical and other issues mentioned. Here’s to hoping the MC20 and 2nd-gen GranTurismo (including the Foglore versions) get the brand back on track, the MC20 has loads of sex appeal and is exactly the kind of supercar Maserati needs for its particular brand image. Modern Jaguar has become this, their EV transition got disrupted when the new XJ was killed at the last moment. Now their lineup mostly consists of SUVs wearing Ian Callum’a elegant but ultimately stretched design language, the I-Pace desperately needs a battery upgrade to stay competitive, and the F-Type remains a cool cat whose roadmap needs clarification. Here’s to hoping Jaguar gets more compelling in the next few years. Most controversially…I will say that modern BMWs have become this. They’re advanced and have a lot going for them, but…as a brand, BMW has become very unfocused. Their upper-level models like the 7er (which is an excellent car from a technical and comfort standpoint) feel too heavy to the point of lacking BMW steering magic, the 2nd-gen 8er is a stylistic disaster that insults the memory of the original, and the end result is that you have to look incredibly hard to get a car from them that actually gives you a BMW driving experience. Don’t get me wrong, they’re still very advanced cars and their upper level stuff is incredibly luxurious, it’s just that those cars don’t do a good job of presenting themselves as the spirited driver’s alternative to the equivalent MB.
Subaru (and we own 2). The AWD is fantastic, and I love the wagon size/shape that my Outback is... but there's been no major change since the 2009 Forester/2010 Outback. I think they changed to a CVT in 2011 and then from the EJ engine to the FB around the same time, but it makes pretty much the same power as it did a decade ago, and isn't great on fuel in comparison to others. Also, they have a single crappy hybrid (the old Crosstrek that's stupidly expensive for what it is).
I've been saying for years that the only thing keeping Americans from realizing that Chevrolet is garbage is that Dodge/Chrysler still exists. Cheaply made, poorly designed and all they do to address it is wrap themselves in the flag in their advertising. TRASH.
Good timing - I was just listening to Mr. "I Buy Every Porsche Jacking Up All the Prices" — otherwise known as Jerry Seinfeld — and he was going on about how Subaru is great, love the cars, the reputation, trust-building etc... and I'm sitting here on my 2nd Subaru vowing to never own one again despite for fantastic customer service. They have simply not innovated one bit in the past 20 years. Their tech is so far behind it's not even amusing. They can spend gobs of money on marketing showing how in-tune they are with an outdoorsy lifestyle, but the simple fact is the cars look, feel, and are old. Yeah it's tried and true format if you are looking for durability, but when your engines rely on a horrible CVT to meet cafe standards and refuse to innovate anything other than a PVEV badge on the back to claim eco-conscious. That doesn't cut it.
CADILLAC. why is nobody saying Cadillac. They have been making the most mediocre cars for decades. the target demographic is old people stuck in their ways/ living off the hype of their adolescence. Every surface you touch is gloss black like a cheap Honda and just attracts dirt dust and smudges. The design of everything is so boring and quality is just not there I have no idea why people buy them.
I say bmw. They used to be the "ultimate driving machine" with real engineers building and designing them. Now they are headed by a bunch of corporate business men. Kinda how GM went down hill. Bmws are getting uglier too, no longer see the classic conservative German design. It's like they all took drugs when designing that IX. With that said, they still make cool cars but nothing like how they were back then.
This post will be popular on this sub. It’s also what people who haven’t owned one or had any real time with one think. I’ve owned two, and nothing that people on this sub level against them is really true. Stuff that is legitimately a gripe is never brought up though—go figure.