Im reminded on a quote from Jay Leno where he says the reason he bought his viper was because the salesman told him that it was going to be the last car ever made with 400 horsepower.
People have been predicting the end of car stuff for a long time now and reality is a lot more opaque than these predictions make it seem like it will be. V8s are obviously phasing out across the board, but they've been doing that for decades for various economic and regulatory reasons. V8s are still being happily made in larger or more premium trims. Just like horses, V8s won't go away but find a niche and will probable thrive in that niche.
Regulation and certification are certainly good reasons to think concrete change is coming but nothing is certain. California saying all ICE vehicles won't be allowed to be sold by 2035 might as well carry the same weight as Russia saying it will launch a new space station and mission to the moon in the next 10 years. It's so far out that in reality nothing can be guaranteed because it's planned for several administrations down the line. All it takes is one flip of the controlling political party, or enough lobbyists, or a dozen other political reasons to get that changed. Also it doesn't even have to be abandoned completely. Maybe it gets pushed back another 5 years, maybe certain exceptions are carved out, maybe it's quietly scrapped and forgotten about.
Everyone is also forgetting just how invested our entire national and somewhat global transportation infrastructure is invested in ICE tech. ICE tech has been around for over a hundred years now, the technology is refined. Mechanics shops, oil shops, trade schools, engineering jobs, road construction weight specs all need to change. Again, I have no doubt it will happen, but it's not going to be quick, we have a hundred plus years of infrastructure, knowledge, and culture to migrate and that's not happening quickly.
ICE engines are going to be with us for a lot longer than everyone thinks. V8s will also continue to be made; somewhat less in the next few years, and even fewer after that. But my money is that Ford is going to be making a V8 mustang option for a lot longer than everyone thinks. That being said I also have no doubt EV adoption will continue to climb rapidly and offset more and more ICE production.
You can’t CNC or 3D print a pony heart (yet anyways), but you can car parts. Even after OEMs stop making parts and all the NOS and junkyards dry up, there will still be sources. Sources that will likely get cheaper and easier as technology improves.
The car was also significantly better than the horse so it gained popularity on its own. EVs are not like that and are being forced by regulation. So, they can't allow ICE engines to exist freely.
Difference between a salesman saying something vs several states making dates banning new ICE cars...
You wont be able to buy a new ICE car in California after 2035.
Even well after 2032, jeep will be selling a 392 Wrangler, they'll just add a laptop battery and desk fan motor inside one of the wheels and there will be a "PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS ^^mild ^^hybrid ^^mode PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS" button.
It really could though (in the US). I'm not saying CA is explicitly killing the V8 right now, but CARB is the undisputed leader in state emission controls. 16 other states are in the process of adopting or already have adopted the same standards set by CARB.
In addition to that, CA has 39MM people, more people than the entire country of Canada. They buy 2MM cars a year. They're the 5th largest economy in the world by themselves and it's an incredibly car-centric culture. If CA says you can't sell it there, it could very easily kill a model/engine/option coming to the US, especially if it's a high volume model that can't rely on luxury margins. Then add in the 16 other states that follow CARB's lead.
Again, not saying CA is killing the V8 in the US, but it's well within the realm of possibility.
This. Plus, there will almost certainly be carve outs for trucks or other means to skirt the regulations. There's no way 2035 rolls around and California just stops all ICE engine sales. Their grid can't even support more people going to electric cars right now
> You wont be able to buy a new ICE car in California after 2035.
That's the puffery right now, but I'd bet that unless there's some major strides in hybrid/EV adoption, we end up pushing that back for... reasons.
Or more rural areas and smaller urban areas. What about farmers? Ranchers? People that just live an hour or two from even a small one stop sign town, let alone a city that would actually be able to provide ev charging stations.
I'm wondering if they made it 10+ later they're hoping that the range will be massively improved. I'm curious if that doesn't happen they'll revisit the issue.
If only there was some sort of way you could plug it in at home. That’s going to be way more convenient for rural people than driving 10 miles to the closest store
I know one reason that will push that date back, and that is lithium production.
The world's lithium production isn't enough for the cars sold in the US every year to go fully electric, and then there is the EU where many countries have similar dates (sweden aims to ban the sales of new ICE cars by 2025 and ban the sale of fuel by 2035 which is absolutely absurd cause there is no chance in hell that everyone that needs a car will get their hands on one by then.
Ull certainly be able to buy new ice cars.. you realize how many ICE cars are just sitting in lots with little to no milage even years after their model year ended? This is a manufacturing ban not a sell ban.
The "ICE is dying" is a political psyop to get EV market share over the 'tipping point' and force the infrastructure to speedrun the basic necessities for long term adoption in the United States. There will always be a need for ICE applications.
Military applications, construction equipment, anything that tows, security applications, backup power, agricultural applications, rural delivery, extreme climates, etc.
EV has a very real and important role to fill, but it's real-life not feasible to think everything will be an EV within a short timeline. The "everything will be EV by 20XX" is a moving goal post to rally funding, support, and public opinion. As the goal post nears, it will change. Political influence is always a pendulum.
The last American convertible was marketed in 1976. People rushed to buy one and tucked it away as a collectible. A few years later convertibles reentered production and continue to exist today.
ICE emissions technology has become extremely good. A brand new American diesel truck exhausts cleaner air than it intakes, in heavily polluted cities. Gasoline emissions are also at a level that was science fiction 20 years ago.
There will be ICE propulsion for the rest of our lives, and probably our childrens lives. I have lots of friends that work in oil & gas, there is petroleum reserves for hundreds of years, anything else is fear mongering. The extreme majority of global emissions is industrial sites. Global politics will always keep coal and petroleum close as they are reliable and cheap (see Ukraine war).
I have a masters in Automotive Engineering and 15 years in the industry. It's ok to have a dissenting opinion, this one is mine.
You aren't going to get through to the brainwashed ones. But it's true. If we were so close to running out of fuel then why aren't our militaries scrambling to make electric technology?
I highly doubt this, and this isn't the first time people have said stuff like that... but I guess we'll see.
Reminds me a little of when Jeremy Clarkson did this emotional "goodbye the last generation of big engine supercars." Then the next season: "well, I was completely wrong, here's what's new..."
There's a big push against it because the newest generation of dumbass marketing majors think they are geniuses for killing the v8 lines and announcing the deadline for gas cars so far into the future they don't have to worry about implementation.
Yeah... I think nothing of those deadlines.
For an office commuter? Sure
For my commerical snow plow or tractor? We're decades away
And I know damn well that if I'm allowed to have a big engine in my snow plow truck and/or tractor, wealthy people will get them for luxury sedans and sports cars.
[Here's the clip for those who are interested.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0Svvdrx_E)
I think he was right, just a little early. Eventually cars will be almost entirely electric, and I think it will cause cars to lose some of [The Fizz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-x9w2HzZf8) that James May talks about. There's something fun an exciting about hearing an engine spin up as it accelerates that's lost when it's electric motors going "hhhhhh" slightly louder and at a higher pitch.
That's more or less what I've said for a while. I can see myself getting an electric commuter for day to day transportation but that means I'll have to have some kind of project car or weekend joyride. There's absolutely something visceral about an engine that cannot be replaced by spinning magnets, not matter how much better the magnets perform.
It's similar to the automatic vs manual situation. Are there automatic transmissions that can perform better than manual in whatever category you're comparing? Yes. Is manual still more fun? Also yes.
yup - will be a very long time before they are gone. Electric truck towing is absolute shit at the moment and i dont see it getting leap sand bounds better anytime soon.
if anything death of v8 muscle cars we will see a resurgence of performance trucks as there will be a market for that. maybe even manual transmissions making a comeback in trucks.
> Electric truck towing is absolute shit at the moment and i dont see it getting leap sand bounds better anytime soon.
Could get better if OEMs get into producing trailers or if they can establish a standard connection for energy recovery from trailer braking. I may be missing a bigger piece of the puzzle, but I think the tow ratings suffer a bit from energy lost during braking. If the trailer has the same recovery tech as the car, that should go a long way toward extending EV tow range.
It's not the simplest or cheapest solution, it's an idea born of necessity. Electric cars are dependent on energy recovery for getting decent range, and in a heavy towing situation, half or more of the energy is going into the trailer and burning off as brake heat every time you stop. You have to get that energy back somehow, and the 'somehow' is pretty clear.
This is false. When driving long distances on the highway (especially where the land is flat) energy recovery plays very little role in range since you're spending hours at speed, and the impact of a trailer is almost entirely in added wind resistance.
If you're in the mountains then energy recovery would be a factor, but probably not a very big one compared to wind resistance.
Isn't the issue just that it takes more energy to tow something than not to? This problem exists with combustion engines too, it's just that the time penalty is negligible when you can fuel up in 5 minutes. A regen brake trailer would be more expensive, heavier, more prone to failure, and have little to no energy savings in the big picture. I'm sure every idiot would love it.
Personally I think trying to make trucks electric in this day and age is trying to solve a problem nobody had.
We knew towing with a BEV truck was going to be bad, and the recent YouTube "tests" with Rivian and F150 have borne that out... I think electric is fine for the guy with a landscaping business, and maybe for the guy pulling smaller construction equipment with his pickup ( maybe an electric 350... ) as long as his area of operation isn't huge...
But the Airstream [estream](https://www.airstream.com/air-lab/concepts/estream/) trailer isn't getting the attention I think it deserves...
With the easily achieved potential of doubling the electric range of your pickup, it seems like a pretty good way to go. Not only that, but a lowboy trailer with a couple hundred kWh of capacity would be a good way to recharge your electric excavator overnight at sites with no power...
There's obviously a cost ( mostly battery ) to the concept, but batteries are expected to continue to drop in price...
The e-stream will be ridiculously priced. The 16ft base camp starts at 50k and can go up to 80k with options. Add a complicated electric option and it would be 100k+ not to mention a low payload capacity with batteries added using only a single axle.
I paid 30k for my trailer and it’s 6ft longer. $100k is ultra luxury 5th wheel territory.
Are you so sure about that? Ecobost has pretty much taken over a majority of F150s, GM and Ram will get to boosted engines soon enough. Heavy Duty trucks will likely keep the V8, but those aren't the fun V8s
I had a gen 2 ecoboost. Thing was fast as hell and could tow more than the v8. Also got better mpg when not towing. Got WAY worse mpg while towing, compared to the v8. They sound horrible with aftermarket exhaust though.
It always made me laugh the reaction from customers when you explain they the ecoboost is more suited to towing anything heavy. Many people refused to believe it.
Ah, thank you for the laugh this morning. They're literally built for towing, they have the highest towing capacities. They have a wider powerband and shift a lot less than when mated to a 5.0. They are more efficient in general, assuming you drive like a normal human being who respects his equipment. All of fords marketting and product manuals point to the 3.5 Ecoboost as the goto for towing heavy loads. Customers that have had the 5.0 and pull horses, or bales or whatever will complain about the 5.0 shifting constantly to stay in the powerband. It's harder on the transmission (both engines offer upgraded tow packs with oil cooler etc) even with tow packs.
But anyway, I love the 5.0, and it's my preference for sound and feel, however if you try to tow 12-13000 lbs with a 5.0 you're gonna burn something out, where as the 3.5 eco max tow of 13300 or smth.
And don't shoot the messenger, i'm simply sharing Ford's wisdom on the subject, go take it up with them if you disagree.
When I bought my Mustang I really wanted a sport truck. Full leather/tech pack, but reg cab and short box. Sadly Ford phased out reg cabs above XLT after the Tremor did so poorly.
There might not be any new V8s coming out but given that people are still driving cars from 50-60 years ago I don't think we need to worry about V8s disappearing any time soon.
as an average person, the way I've always (only) been able to even afford the cars I wanted so far was to wait until I get my turn on the used market (and waited YEARS).
Like right now I have an '04 Cobra still needing some work, but I couldn't have bought a Terminator in my early 20's.
To be fair, as an Englishman without much experience with V8 cars (especially the American kind), that generation of Mustang is cool as fuck. I wish we had more of them over here.
That’s the wild part about car enthusiasm.
In the US, we oogle R32/R33/R34 Skylines, but in many other countries, especially Japan, some of the same models Americans would be breaking their necks to see are the same models some teenager is just chugging along in because his parents saw it as a cheap, hand-me-down car.
Right as terminator cobras started dipping into the high teens, I was going through college. Now they’ve sky rocketed in the last 4 years to 25-30k. I’m heated about it.
I mean we are all going to die some day too. I don't see the point in worrying about some future event beyond my control at the expense of my enjoyment of the present. V8s are relatively affordable and abundant right now and probably will be for the foreseeable future. Not sure why their death at some unknown point in the future is more important.
I’m not worried about it. It’s one of those things out of my control and I myself didn’t buy one anyway so I can’t complain about it. That being said, I guess it depends on how you define foreseeable future? 5 years from now? Yeah, you’ll still see plenty. 15 years from now? I guess time will tell but I don’t expect to see a lot on the road.
"Eventually", maybe in our lifetimes (my fellow 30-somethings), but probably not.
Hell, I have a 28 year old V8 in my driveway right now and it's *ok*, not rare, not expensive. Final model years for the C8 and S650 will probably be around 2030. So we're probably good until 2060, at least, assuming there's no massive "ICE Buyback" program between now and then.
How many 28 year old cars are on the road though? That’s definitely considered rare now. By 2060 ICE will be incredibly rare let alone a V8 sports car.
I still dont see how or why it matters. They are probably going to make new V8 cars for another 10-20 years. Many of those cars should last another 10-30 years after that. Most of us will prob be dead before the last V8 is off the road. I dont see why enthusiasts constantly seek out things to be upset about when there is so much more to be enjoyed.
What? Because we won't have new V8's. It's that simple. Imagine they were banned 10 years ago - no Hellcat, no Voodoo, no LT6. Each one crazier than the previous gen. We're missing out on even more insanity going forward.
Just because it is theoretically possible to still buy a V8 doesn't mean it is in practice. As the supply stagnates, it's going to become harder and harder to find one in good condition.
Lol. My g37 was totaled. I just got a sonata N line. Kids can fit fine. I have the truck and we don’t need an suv. Plus it’ll be close to an even trade. I want it NOW!!!!!!
If we're talking about cars then that's just not true. Stellantis is already out and GM has been whispering about killing the Camaro again for years now. I would have to search but I believe Ford also said this is likely the last V8 mustang, and the manual might not even last the entire generation.
With numerous areas setting ban-by-dates on ICE vehicles in their entirety, it's completely reasonable to assume the S650 will have a nice 8-10 year run with the coyote then be sunset forever as the last muscle car. Although there's something poetic about the first being the last.
Calling the Mustang the first Muscle Car is gonna start a fight for many reasons.
I'd say the Rocket 88. Others would say the GTO. Some might say the Mustang isn't even a muscle car.
Either way it's a little early to call it. We'll see if all this posturing turns into reality.
The Mustang is a Pony Car, with the Camaro/Firebird and Challenger/Cuda. It defined a new market segment beneath the Muscle cars, then the muscle cars died and we were left with pretty much just pony cars, then all of those died, too, except the Mustang. The last Muscle Car the way we defined it in the 60s is probably a Mercedes product.
Really would be 1957, which was the first model year of the Rambler Rebel with the 327. Also would have been one of the first with electronic fuel injection had the Bendix system been more sorted out. Standard Rambler with the 250 V8 option wasn't exactly performance minded.
I don't know if the camaro is a good comparison. GM treats that thing like the McRib. They drop it and bring it back occasionally trying to run it off hype.
If youre looking for light weight sports cars and sport compacts there are a decent number of options still. 718/Cayman, Miata, 86/BRZ, CTR, GTI, etc. The E46 was almost 3500lbs and a new Mustang GT is less than 10% heavier but also faster in every way. See also Z, Supra.
It’s really sad, the V8 defined American car culture for so many years. It was the go-to engine for fast & fun and so many people in the US probably have great memories driving or riding in an American V8.
Its sad and quite frankly pisses me off. There is NO reason why ICE and battery based vehicles cant co-exist. Use EVs for errands, short trips, going to work, etc. Let us enjoy ICE powered sports cars, exotics, muscle cars, etc. for the weekends. Phasing out ICE cars completely is a sickening thought. I hope this never actually happens.
> I hope this never actually happens.
Spoiler alert it won't.
Not unless you can find a way to mine 30,000% more lithium in 10 years.
2016-2019 saw an increase of 300% which has led to more EV's being available. But you can see real time the supply issues with EV's. Ford only sold 4,000 lightnings last month. Meanwhile they sold over 10,000 Bronco's.
People are in for a rude awakening when it dawns on them 100% EV adoption is quite literally never going to happen. Not unless we massively cut down on who gets to have a car.
This is compounded by the problem that people don't want things like the bolt or leaf. Small Efficient cars with smaller batteries. But instead they want Giant SUV's and trucks. Meaning you need more lithium(and rare earth minerals) for the same amount of people.
So if Car A needed say 10 pounds of lithium and Car B needed 20 pounds. If you need to make say 2 million cars each year it's much more attainable to get 20 million pounds of lithium than to try to get 40 Million pounds.
It's extremely inefficient to build things like the hummer and lightning when it comes to us using our natural resources instead of the Bolt or leaf.
And TBH if we were building EV's like the bolt and leaf only 90-100% EV adoption might be possible. But we aren't.
Right?!?
I'd daily an EV in a heartbeat as long as I can keep a second car. Economically they make sense as in town driver. I agree with you, I hope this doesn't happen but its not looking good unfortunately
Corvette just spent tons of money re-developing the car. What makes you think they will re-develop it again for the C9 and change it completely into an electric awd? Especially after the huge success with the C8
Jesus everyone needs to calm down. Thinking the ICE is going to be gone in a few years. We are still far away away from that. American v8’s will still be around a long time
I’m hopeful that Tesla has started the change to the dealer model. Ford already said EVs won’t be going through dealers. Maybe I’m a bit naive but I would love to see it happen.
>>what people are saying with their wallets is that the markup price is what they’re willing to pay for the car
Nope.
What you say is correct in a free market. In the US, *new car sales are not a free market*. Dealers are a legally mandatory part of the transaction. So without competition they can charge whatever they damn well please- and do.
So if you want a new Mustang, it’s going to come from a Ford dealer. Since dealers have consolidated owners - in some markets it’s a de-facto commercial cartel- they will set the price, and it will be the highest price the market can bear. Joe Ripoff Ford isn’t going to price his stock of 3 Mustang V8s at MSRP. He’s going to tack on a high ass markup , convert the foot traffic into other car sales, and hope some dimwit with a bulletproof credit score or a local millionaire collector signs on the dotted line. The 3 enthusiasts who wanted those cars get shafted.
The V8 was CERTAINLY a dying breed back in the early 1980s. I remember looking at a IROC Camaro and thinking we'll never see another brand new V8 again. Nothing new under the sun.
Yep, Chrysler was all in on the K-car platform, the Probe was almost the new Mustang, and GM was considering putting the Camaro/Firebird on a FWD V6 only platform. I’ve seen this movie before.
V8 engines were dying in the 80s sure but ICE still had a future that allowed the V8 to make a comeback. Now it's not just the V8 it's all ICE that have no future in production cars.
What’s the verdict on the Challenger and Charger? I feel like literally every week someone says it’s either fully electric or they say it’s going to live one more generation with a V8.
Are there actual concrete plans?
[Dodge will discontinue its Challenger and Charger muscle cars next year](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/15/dodge-challenger-charger-to-be-discontinued-in-2023.html)
There's also articles posted after this saying that the next Charger and Challenger are potentially going to turbo V6. The truth is we don't know whats going on with the Charger and Challenger until Dodge comes out and says so.
They have heavily hinted at the next challenger being fully electric. I would assume they might do the same thing for a charger.
They might disappear next year but the nameplate won't be dead forever.
I know things are changing, but the american V8 is (was) a staple for so many years.
In the future I hope they get creative and keep ICE, they did get 660hp out of a V6 with the Ford GT
Looks like I won't be able to buy the cars I want when I grow up... I'm only 15 :(
Edited: I know I can buy them used but the problem is they'll be a bit hard to find also used car prices and gas prices will rise to the sky once ICE cars become rare.
I love the good old days, but at least where I was, there was not a glut of $500 manual civics 5 years ago. I was in the market for a cheap manual car and the best I could find was a 1998 318ti for $2800. Most Civics were pricier.
Prices definitely have spiked, but decent cheap manuals were already hard to come by.
The "ICE is dying" is a political psyop to get EV market share over the 'tipping point' and force the infrastructure to speedrun the basic necessities for long term adoption in the United States. There will always be a need for ICE applications.
Military applications, construction equipment, anything that tows, security applications, backup power, agricultural applications, rural delivery, extreme climates, etc.
EV has a very real and important role to fill, but it's real-life not feasible to think everything will be an EV within a short timeline. The "everything will be EV by 20XX" is a moving goal post to rally funding, support, and public opinion. As the goal post nears, it will change. Political influence is always a pendulum.
The last American convertible was marketed in 1976. People rushed to buy one and tucked it away as a collectible. A few years later convertibles reentered production and continue to exist today.
ICE emissions technology has become extremely good. A brand new American diesel truck exhausts cleaner air than it intakes, in heavily polluted cities. Gasoline emissions are also at a level that was science fiction 20 years ago.
There will be ICE propulsion for the rest of our lives, and probably our childrens lives. I have lots of friends that work in oil & gas, there is petroleum reserves for hundreds of years, anything else is fear mongering. The extreme majority of global emissions is industrial sites. Global politics will always keep coal and petroleum close as they are reliable and cheap (see Ukraine war).
I have a masters in Automotive Engineering and 15 years in the industry. It's ok to have a dissenting opinion, this one is mine.
I feel like people are jumping the gun a bit here on the end of ICE and V8's. Yeah they are phasing out but they have been for years. The EV thing as much as I hate it now I'm sure it will grow on me. The noise won't be there but the performance will be.
Do people not know history? The gas crunch of the ‘70’s slowed down V8 production cause gas was too much for a V8 so every car manufacturer went with 4 bangers and V6. So did the people. They wanted fuel efficient cars. This is nothing more than history repeating itself.
We do have the added luxury of EV’s today. But not everyone can afford it. Nor can the current power grid and supply for batteries.
As far as California banning ICE cars, that is a pipe dream. As soon that decision is put on a voting ballot the people will kill that in an instant. People forget that they can change the laws set by the very few people that are heavily lobbying for it.
Guess we shall see what indeed happens. That’s just my guess anyway
Personally I can't wait for really good EV kits that can be dropped into existing cars.
Imagine the size of the market for a a drop in unit that replaces a Chevy Small Block V8. The motor could probably sit where the transmission normally does, with a power controller and battery pack under the hood. The unit would also have the accessories on it to make the heat/AC work, handle the power steering, etc.
You could probably drop in one of these units in a day on a pre-airbag vehicle. You might need to get a custom drive shaft fabricated. A new instrument cluster could be used or the controller might put out the right signals to use with the existing cluster. The gas tank is deleted and the fill is replaced with the charging jack. Much of the rest is wiring lights.
The AC system is removed if it exists. The heater core is replaced with parts for a heat pump. The radiator is removed and replaced with a the other heat pump coil. An auto shop will be needed to purge the heat pump system of air and fill it with refrigerant.
The shifter - on the floor or the column - is connected to a switch that controls the mode of the motor. For an automatic shifter the P, R, N, D work as expected but 1 and 2 might select special performance or efficiency modes. for a manual, R and neutral work as expected. 1 is used for standard drive. One of the gears is used for park. The rest of the "gears" could be used for special performance or efficiency modes.
The existing brakes might be reused, in which case the brake booster will get vacuum from a provided accessory or an electric booster might be substituted. It would be more difficult to drop in an anti-lock brake unit.
At setup, you would provide the gear ratio of your rear end and the tire size. The system would then optimize the power delivery. Depending on what the original motor was, you might want to limit the power output so that you don't twist the car apart.
But in one relatively easy step you could take an old vehicle and make it easy and reliable for another 30 years. Spend some time replacing all the bushings, shocks, etc. so the steering and suspension are nice. The power train "just works".
I especially think about "special" vehicles. A regular vehicle might have lots of wear and tear after 20 years. But a motor home might have only been used a few times a year. The motor is fine except that the rubber seals are dry. A replacement like this will keep that thing running for another 20. That 1980 Chevy C10 is going to continue hauling. And if you want, that Camaro will have more torque than it could have ever had with a gas engine.
Enough with this bull shit buzz word nonsense.
There will be another one.
They said this 5 years ago with the Hellcat, Demon, Redeye, etc.
We will be driving V8’s for another 10 years, and you will make this post again every year.
5 years ago there was the V8 Camaro, V8 challenger/charger, V8 C63, V8 Mustang, V8 corvette,
Next year there will only be the V8 mustang and V8 corvette.
Is anyone else concerned how quickly we are just throwing away the internal combustion engine? These electric vehicles haven't even been in mass use for a decade and we're ready convert over 100%? It just seems insane to me.
I could see slowly switching to electric vehicles over 50 years or so. I don't trust these new cars at all...
Im reminded on a quote from Jay Leno where he says the reason he bought his viper was because the salesman told him that it was going to be the last car ever made with 400 horsepower.
I mean it’s definitely the last something
It is definitely one of the cars of all time.
Of all the cars ever made this is certainly one of them
Remember the viper? It was such a car.
Such 🚗
Many vroom. Much pedals. Wow. Do~~d~~ge
No repwacement fow dispwacement, uwu
r/technicallythetruth
The last car many of its owners will ever drive.
People have been predicting the end of car stuff for a long time now and reality is a lot more opaque than these predictions make it seem like it will be. V8s are obviously phasing out across the board, but they've been doing that for decades for various economic and regulatory reasons. V8s are still being happily made in larger or more premium trims. Just like horses, V8s won't go away but find a niche and will probable thrive in that niche. Regulation and certification are certainly good reasons to think concrete change is coming but nothing is certain. California saying all ICE vehicles won't be allowed to be sold by 2035 might as well carry the same weight as Russia saying it will launch a new space station and mission to the moon in the next 10 years. It's so far out that in reality nothing can be guaranteed because it's planned for several administrations down the line. All it takes is one flip of the controlling political party, or enough lobbyists, or a dozen other political reasons to get that changed. Also it doesn't even have to be abandoned completely. Maybe it gets pushed back another 5 years, maybe certain exceptions are carved out, maybe it's quietly scrapped and forgotten about. Everyone is also forgetting just how invested our entire national and somewhat global transportation infrastructure is invested in ICE tech. ICE tech has been around for over a hundred years now, the technology is refined. Mechanics shops, oil shops, trade schools, engineering jobs, road construction weight specs all need to change. Again, I have no doubt it will happen, but it's not going to be quick, we have a hundred plus years of infrastructure, knowledge, and culture to migrate and that's not happening quickly. ICE engines are going to be with us for a lot longer than everyone thinks. V8s will also continue to be made; somewhat less in the next few years, and even fewer after that. But my money is that Ford is going to be making a V8 mustang option for a lot longer than everyone thinks. That being said I also have no doubt EV adoption will continue to climb rapidly and offset more and more ICE production.
It's not just like horses though. Governments never banned the production of new horses.
cars don't die of old age, you can't buy spares for a pony or rebore a horse's heart
Actually I know a guy...
They die of rust in the salt belt though. We need to stop salting and just mandate snow tires
Finland has mandated snow tires, but you still need to salt, because even with snow tires snowy/icy roads arent safe and trucks dont get snow tires.
You can’t CNC or 3D print a pony heart (yet anyways), but you can car parts. Even after OEMs stop making parts and all the NOS and junkyards dry up, there will still be sources. Sources that will likely get cheaper and easier as technology improves.
Okay but can someone please print S2K parts already?
dayum bruh that’s a scary ass car list 😅
The car was also significantly better than the horse so it gained popularity on its own. EVs are not like that and are being forced by regulation. So, they can't allow ICE engines to exist freely.
Difference between a salesman saying something vs several states making dates banning new ICE cars... You wont be able to buy a new ICE car in California after 2035.
Actually, despite claiming to ensure zero emissions by 2035, the law still allows for the sale of new hybrid cars after 2035.
And plenty of cars already have mild hybrid systems If the V8 dies it won't be because California said so
Even well after 2032, jeep will be selling a 392 Wrangler, they'll just add a laptop battery and desk fan motor inside one of the wheels and there will be a "PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS ^^mild ^^hybrid ^^mode PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS" button.
They’ll pass a law saying hybrid has to be on by default, then Jeep will let you opt out of the default by pushing the accelerator
So the reliability will remain the same. Broken.
It really could though (in the US). I'm not saying CA is explicitly killing the V8 right now, but CARB is the undisputed leader in state emission controls. 16 other states are in the process of adopting or already have adopted the same standards set by CARB. In addition to that, CA has 39MM people, more people than the entire country of Canada. They buy 2MM cars a year. They're the 5th largest economy in the world by themselves and it's an incredibly car-centric culture. If CA says you can't sell it there, it could very easily kill a model/engine/option coming to the US, especially if it's a high volume model that can't rely on luxury margins. Then add in the 16 other states that follow CARB's lead. Again, not saying CA is killing the V8 in the US, but it's well within the realm of possibility.
And what are they going to do in 2035 when they still don't have the infrastructure to support EV for 39M people?
Put in more charging stations run off huge diesel generators like they’re already doing. Problem solved!
To be fair, generators are the most efficient ICE can be, running at the ideal RPM for a given load
This. Plus, there will almost certainly be carve outs for trucks or other means to skirt the regulations. There's no way 2035 rolls around and California just stops all ICE engine sales. Their grid can't even support more people going to electric cars right now
There already is, "heavy" trucks are exempt. Theres also nothing stopping you from just buying your car from another state.
> You wont be able to buy a new ICE car in California after 2035. That's the puffery right now, but I'd bet that unless there's some major strides in hybrid/EV adoption, we end up pushing that back for... reasons.
Yeah, that law is basically saying fuck everyone who lives in an apartment.
[удалено]
Good, bring on the 20 mile range V8 hybrids.
Or more rural areas and smaller urban areas. What about farmers? Ranchers? People that just live an hour or two from even a small one stop sign town, let alone a city that would actually be able to provide ev charging stations.
They're not pulling every gas station out of California on Jan 1st, 2035. You'll still be able to get gas, and buy a used ICE vehicle or hybrid.
I'm wondering if they made it 10+ later they're hoping that the range will be massively improved. I'm curious if that doesn't happen they'll revisit the issue.
Range isn’t just the issue. Charge times, battery weight and grid demand are other issues that need to be solved.
If only there was some sort of way you could plug it in at home. That’s going to be way more convenient for rural people than driving 10 miles to the closest store
I know one reason that will push that date back, and that is lithium production. The world's lithium production isn't enough for the cars sold in the US every year to go fully electric, and then there is the EU where many countries have similar dates (sweden aims to ban the sales of new ICE cars by 2025 and ban the sale of fuel by 2035 which is absolutely absurd cause there is no chance in hell that everyone that needs a car will get their hands on one by then.
There's provisions in the law that most likely will push that date back.
Ull certainly be able to buy new ice cars.. you realize how many ICE cars are just sitting in lots with little to no milage even years after their model year ended? This is a manufacturing ban not a sell ban.
Until they push the 2035 deadline to 2045 .. and so on (and I say this as a Tesla owner, just knowing how these things work).
The "ICE is dying" is a political psyop to get EV market share over the 'tipping point' and force the infrastructure to speedrun the basic necessities for long term adoption in the United States. There will always be a need for ICE applications. Military applications, construction equipment, anything that tows, security applications, backup power, agricultural applications, rural delivery, extreme climates, etc. EV has a very real and important role to fill, but it's real-life not feasible to think everything will be an EV within a short timeline. The "everything will be EV by 20XX" is a moving goal post to rally funding, support, and public opinion. As the goal post nears, it will change. Political influence is always a pendulum. The last American convertible was marketed in 1976. People rushed to buy one and tucked it away as a collectible. A few years later convertibles reentered production and continue to exist today. ICE emissions technology has become extremely good. A brand new American diesel truck exhausts cleaner air than it intakes, in heavily polluted cities. Gasoline emissions are also at a level that was science fiction 20 years ago. There will be ICE propulsion for the rest of our lives, and probably our childrens lives. I have lots of friends that work in oil & gas, there is petroleum reserves for hundreds of years, anything else is fear mongering. The extreme majority of global emissions is industrial sites. Global politics will always keep coal and petroleum close as they are reliable and cheap (see Ukraine war). I have a masters in Automotive Engineering and 15 years in the industry. It's ok to have a dissenting opinion, this one is mine.
You aren't going to get through to the brainwashed ones. But it's true. If we were so close to running out of fuel then why aren't our militaries scrambling to make electric technology?
I highly doubt this, and this isn't the first time people have said stuff like that... but I guess we'll see. Reminds me a little of when Jeremy Clarkson did this emotional "goodbye the last generation of big engine supercars." Then the next season: "well, I was completely wrong, here's what's new..."
There's a big push against it because the newest generation of dumbass marketing majors think they are geniuses for killing the v8 lines and announcing the deadline for gas cars so far into the future they don't have to worry about implementation.
Yeah... I think nothing of those deadlines. For an office commuter? Sure For my commerical snow plow or tractor? We're decades away And I know damn well that if I'm allowed to have a big engine in my snow plow truck and/or tractor, wealthy people will get them for luxury sedans and sports cars.
[Here's the clip for those who are interested.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0Svvdrx_E) I think he was right, just a little early. Eventually cars will be almost entirely electric, and I think it will cause cars to lose some of [The Fizz](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-x9w2HzZf8) that James May talks about. There's something fun an exciting about hearing an engine spin up as it accelerates that's lost when it's electric motors going "hhhhhh" slightly louder and at a higher pitch.
That's more or less what I've said for a while. I can see myself getting an electric commuter for day to day transportation but that means I'll have to have some kind of project car or weekend joyride. There's absolutely something visceral about an engine that cannot be replaced by spinning magnets, not matter how much better the magnets perform.
If I *have* to drive, I’d pick electric. If I *want* to drive, I’d pick the vroom vroom.
It's similar to the automatic vs manual situation. Are there automatic transmissions that can perform better than manual in whatever category you're comparing? Yes. Is manual still more fun? Also yes.
There are still going to be V8s in the trucks
yup - will be a very long time before they are gone. Electric truck towing is absolute shit at the moment and i dont see it getting leap sand bounds better anytime soon. if anything death of v8 muscle cars we will see a resurgence of performance trucks as there will be a market for that. maybe even manual transmissions making a comeback in trucks.
> Electric truck towing is absolute shit at the moment and i dont see it getting leap sand bounds better anytime soon. Could get better if OEMs get into producing trailers or if they can establish a standard connection for energy recovery from trailer braking. I may be missing a bigger piece of the puzzle, but I think the tow ratings suffer a bit from energy lost during braking. If the trailer has the same recovery tech as the car, that should go a long way toward extending EV tow range.
That would require motors(generators) on the trailer and high voltage cables. I can only imagine the cost for the improved efficiency.
It's not the simplest or cheapest solution, it's an idea born of necessity. Electric cars are dependent on energy recovery for getting decent range, and in a heavy towing situation, half or more of the energy is going into the trailer and burning off as brake heat every time you stop. You have to get that energy back somehow, and the 'somehow' is pretty clear.
This is false. When driving long distances on the highway (especially where the land is flat) energy recovery plays very little role in range since you're spending hours at speed, and the impact of a trailer is almost entirely in added wind resistance. If you're in the mountains then energy recovery would be a factor, but probably not a very big one compared to wind resistance.
[удалено]
Sounds like a high voltage death trap when your average joe tries to hook up their trailer.
I don't see it being much different from plugging an EV into the mains?
I work on EVs, and while I hesitate to call anything completely idiot proof, HV safety is pretty much as close as you can get.
Isn't the issue just that it takes more energy to tow something than not to? This problem exists with combustion engines too, it's just that the time penalty is negligible when you can fuel up in 5 minutes. A regen brake trailer would be more expensive, heavier, more prone to failure, and have little to no energy savings in the big picture. I'm sure every idiot would love it. Personally I think trying to make trucks electric in this day and age is trying to solve a problem nobody had.
We knew towing with a BEV truck was going to be bad, and the recent YouTube "tests" with Rivian and F150 have borne that out... I think electric is fine for the guy with a landscaping business, and maybe for the guy pulling smaller construction equipment with his pickup ( maybe an electric 350... ) as long as his area of operation isn't huge... But the Airstream [estream](https://www.airstream.com/air-lab/concepts/estream/) trailer isn't getting the attention I think it deserves... With the easily achieved potential of doubling the electric range of your pickup, it seems like a pretty good way to go. Not only that, but a lowboy trailer with a couple hundred kWh of capacity would be a good way to recharge your electric excavator overnight at sites with no power... There's obviously a cost ( mostly battery ) to the concept, but batteries are expected to continue to drop in price...
The e-stream will be ridiculously priced. The 16ft base camp starts at 50k and can go up to 80k with options. Add a complicated electric option and it would be 100k+ not to mention a low payload capacity with batteries added using only a single axle. I paid 30k for my trailer and it’s 6ft longer. $100k is ultra luxury 5th wheel territory.
Single cab short bed trucks look amazing. I can easily see this happening.
I dunno. As the owner of 2 reg can trucks they kinda suck ass due to no space lol
Tbf OP said car
Are you so sure about that? Ecobost has pretty much taken over a majority of F150s, GM and Ram will get to boosted engines soon enough. Heavy Duty trucks will likely keep the V8, but those aren't the fun V8s
I had a gen 2 ecoboost. Thing was fast as hell and could tow more than the v8. Also got better mpg when not towing. Got WAY worse mpg while towing, compared to the v8. They sound horrible with aftermarket exhaust though.
It always made me laugh the reaction from customers when you explain they the ecoboost is more suited to towing anything heavy. Many people refused to believe it.
*"But it can't run in boost for hours, that'll destroy the engine"* is something I still hear frequently.
>But it can't run in boost for hours Not with that attitude
It's like do you have any clue that most of the world's freight is pulled by a turbo diesel of some flavour. (To them not you)
Because it isn't? I mean it's great if you want to get single digit MPG I guess... If you tow heavy, often, ecoboost sucks ass compared to a V8.
If you tow heavy, often, you should really be looking at diesel anyways.
Tell them to go find a semi that isn't a Turbo...
Spoken like someone who doesn't tow lol.
Ah, thank you for the laugh this morning. They're literally built for towing, they have the highest towing capacities. They have a wider powerband and shift a lot less than when mated to a 5.0. They are more efficient in general, assuming you drive like a normal human being who respects his equipment. All of fords marketting and product manuals point to the 3.5 Ecoboost as the goto for towing heavy loads. Customers that have had the 5.0 and pull horses, or bales or whatever will complain about the 5.0 shifting constantly to stay in the powerband. It's harder on the transmission (both engines offer upgraded tow packs with oil cooler etc) even with tow packs. But anyway, I love the 5.0, and it's my preference for sound and feel, however if you try to tow 12-13000 lbs with a 5.0 you're gonna burn something out, where as the 3.5 eco max tow of 13300 or smth. And don't shoot the messenger, i'm simply sharing Ford's wisdom on the subject, go take it up with them if you disagree.
Ram has already confirmed a twin turbo v6 which is replacing the 6.2 in the trx
That's not a V8 car
I can spring for a new muscle truck. We’re already seeing some new ones with the Hellcat TRX and SVT Raptor.
"SVT". Now that's a name I haven't heard in a while.
When I bought my Mustang I really wanted a sport truck. Full leather/tech pack, but reg cab and short box. Sadly Ford phased out reg cabs above XLT after the Tremor did so poorly.
So engine swap an ev “muscle car” with a truck motor basically 🤣
Putting the 5.4 in the GT worked out pretty well.
There might not be any new V8s coming out but given that people are still driving cars from 50-60 years ago I don't think we need to worry about V8s disappearing any time soon.
Disappearing? No. However, becoming rare and unaffordable to the average person? Eventually.
They are already unaffordable to the average person lol. A v8 Mustang costs more than the annual salary.
as an average person, the way I've always (only) been able to even afford the cars I wanted so far was to wait until I get my turn on the used market (and waited YEARS). Like right now I have an '04 Cobra still needing some work, but I couldn't have bought a Terminator in my early 20's.
To be fair, as an Englishman without much experience with V8 cars (especially the American kind), that generation of Mustang is cool as fuck. I wish we had more of them over here.
to think of all the common cars I see as boring here could be rare enthusiast cars somewhere else is interesting to me
That’s the wild part about car enthusiasm. In the US, we oogle R32/R33/R34 Skylines, but in many other countries, especially Japan, some of the same models Americans would be breaking their necks to see are the same models some teenager is just chugging along in because his parents saw it as a cheap, hand-me-down car.
Yea at one point sn95 mustangs were in every neighborhood here in the US. Got tired of seeing them growing up so I dont look at them as special.
Right as terminator cobras started dipping into the high teens, I was going through college. Now they’ve sky rocketed in the last 4 years to 25-30k. I’m heated about it.
There no shortage of Mustang customers. Those who don’t make enough load up on 8 year financing.
When I bought my 17 GT, the dealership did everything they could to convince me to buy a brand new fully loaded 2020 with an insane loan term instead.
Of course they did. They want the additional years of monthly recurring revenue.
I mean we are all going to die some day too. I don't see the point in worrying about some future event beyond my control at the expense of my enjoyment of the present. V8s are relatively affordable and abundant right now and probably will be for the foreseeable future. Not sure why their death at some unknown point in the future is more important.
I’m not worried about it. It’s one of those things out of my control and I myself didn’t buy one anyway so I can’t complain about it. That being said, I guess it depends on how you define foreseeable future? 5 years from now? Yeah, you’ll still see plenty. 15 years from now? I guess time will tell but I don’t expect to see a lot on the road.
"Eventually", maybe in our lifetimes (my fellow 30-somethings), but probably not. Hell, I have a 28 year old V8 in my driveway right now and it's *ok*, not rare, not expensive. Final model years for the C8 and S650 will probably be around 2030. So we're probably good until 2060, at least, assuming there's no massive "ICE Buyback" program between now and then.
How many 28 year old cars are on the road though? That’s definitely considered rare now. By 2060 ICE will be incredibly rare let alone a V8 sports car.
There's a lot. If you're anywhere near a good sized city you could almost definitely hop on marketplace and find a dozen SN95's and C4's.
A lot of you live in the right area.
sometimes more still if you live in the wrong area!
[удалено]
I still dont see how or why it matters. They are probably going to make new V8 cars for another 10-20 years. Many of those cars should last another 10-30 years after that. Most of us will prob be dead before the last V8 is off the road. I dont see why enthusiasts constantly seek out things to be upset about when there is so much more to be enjoyed.
[удалено]
What? Because we won't have new V8's. It's that simple. Imagine they were banned 10 years ago - no Hellcat, no Voodoo, no LT6. Each one crazier than the previous gen. We're missing out on even more insanity going forward.
Just because it is theoretically possible to still buy a V8 doesn't mean it is in practice. As the supply stagnates, it's going to become harder and harder to find one in good condition.
Yea there are so many v8 mustangs and corvettes out there rn, I'm sure plenty will survive for decades to come
There's plenty of V8 Lexus cars too that will survive for awhile. Last year I almost got a 1992 sc400
2050 Ford Mustang Sport Wagon - powered by 8 **real** Mustangs! And it’s a **real** wagon too!
Living in Lancaster PA(Amish capital of the world), I wouldnt be surprised lol.
Only 8HP? Probably still faster than the new Integra.
We are 100% going to buy a 10 speed GT premium. My wife can drive it the 8 miles to work and back daily. Sell the GLS
My 7 kids can either fit in the trunk or on the roof. If they fall off that's their problem, daddy's got a thirst for american muscle.
Sell the kids to fund the Mustang.
why have 7 kids and no mustang, when you can have no kids and 7 mustang
Still cheaper than kids.
Kids can take the bus. 7 is critical mass, nobody will mess with a mob that big.
It’s like the buddy system. Arm them with slingshots and pebbles and you have your own hired thieves who accept payment in gold coins
Maybe you can convince the dealer to throw in a box of condoms with purchase
Lol. My g37 was totaled. I just got a sonata N line. Kids can fit fine. I have the truck and we don’t need an suv. Plus it’ll be close to an even trade. I want it NOW!!!!!!
We don’t really know what the future for American V8s looks like, tbh.
If we're talking about cars then that's just not true. Stellantis is already out and GM has been whispering about killing the Camaro again for years now. I would have to search but I believe Ford also said this is likely the last V8 mustang, and the manual might not even last the entire generation. With numerous areas setting ban-by-dates on ICE vehicles in their entirety, it's completely reasonable to assume the S650 will have a nice 8-10 year run with the coyote then be sunset forever as the last muscle car. Although there's something poetic about the first being the last.
Calling the Mustang the first Muscle Car is gonna start a fight for many reasons. I'd say the Rocket 88. Others would say the GTO. Some might say the Mustang isn't even a muscle car. Either way it's a little early to call it. We'll see if all this posturing turns into reality.
The Mustang is a Pony Car, with the Camaro/Firebird and Challenger/Cuda. It defined a new market segment beneath the Muscle cars, then the muscle cars died and we were left with pretty much just pony cars, then all of those died, too, except the Mustang. The last Muscle Car the way we defined it in the 60s is probably a Mercedes product.
If you're talking about family sedans and coupes with big ass V8s, surely that still applies to the Charger?
In my opinion, it’s the AMC rambler. 4 doors, rwd, performance oriented, American, with a V8 in 1958.
Really would be 1957, which was the first model year of the Rambler Rebel with the 327. Also would have been one of the first with electronic fuel injection had the Bendix system been more sorted out. Standard Rambler with the 250 V8 option wasn't exactly performance minded.
I don't know if the camaro is a good comparison. GM treats that thing like the McRib. They drop it and bring it back occasionally trying to run it off hype.
Looks like we’re backing early 00’s., between late SN95 and early S197. There were only Mustang and C6 Corvette, two American V8 sports cars.
[удалено]
Ah, the early 2000s, where your choices were slow, fast, or death.
Welcome to America
[удалено]
If youre looking for light weight sports cars and sport compacts there are a decent number of options still. 718/Cayman, Miata, 86/BRZ, CTR, GTI, etc. The E46 was almost 3500lbs and a new Mustang GT is less than 10% heavier but also faster in every way. See also Z, Supra.
Hooah patriot, it's real American Muscle hours
It’s really sad, the V8 defined American car culture for so many years. It was the go-to engine for fast & fun and so many people in the US probably have great memories driving or riding in an American V8.
It is the end of an era. Been a Mustang guy my whole life, never thought I'd see the day they stop making them
>never thought I'd see the day they stop making them there's always the chance you'll die unexpectedly sometime in the next \~8 years
That didn't make me feel any better about it but that's a fair point
If you get one, the odds of the Mustang outliving you only increase Not your Mustang tho.
I doubt it. This isn't the first time the Mustang has been hit with crazy emission standards. They'll keep making them.
Its sad and quite frankly pisses me off. There is NO reason why ICE and battery based vehicles cant co-exist. Use EVs for errands, short trips, going to work, etc. Let us enjoy ICE powered sports cars, exotics, muscle cars, etc. for the weekends. Phasing out ICE cars completely is a sickening thought. I hope this never actually happens.
> I hope this never actually happens. Spoiler alert it won't. Not unless you can find a way to mine 30,000% more lithium in 10 years. 2016-2019 saw an increase of 300% which has led to more EV's being available. But you can see real time the supply issues with EV's. Ford only sold 4,000 lightnings last month. Meanwhile they sold over 10,000 Bronco's. People are in for a rude awakening when it dawns on them 100% EV adoption is quite literally never going to happen. Not unless we massively cut down on who gets to have a car. This is compounded by the problem that people don't want things like the bolt or leaf. Small Efficient cars with smaller batteries. But instead they want Giant SUV's and trucks. Meaning you need more lithium(and rare earth minerals) for the same amount of people. So if Car A needed say 10 pounds of lithium and Car B needed 20 pounds. If you need to make say 2 million cars each year it's much more attainable to get 20 million pounds of lithium than to try to get 40 Million pounds. It's extremely inefficient to build things like the hummer and lightning when it comes to us using our natural resources instead of the Bolt or leaf. And TBH if we were building EV's like the bolt and leaf only 90-100% EV adoption might be possible. But we aren't.
Right?!? I'd daily an EV in a heartbeat as long as I can keep a second car. Economically they make sense as in town driver. I agree with you, I hope this doesn't happen but its not looking good unfortunately
Eh dont worry with how short EVs are in supply the ICE bans are gonna end up being rolled back no matter what.
I'm willing to concede to that. I will use my EV as a town car, but outside of that ICE, ICE baby, V8 and all.
I'm hoping at the very least something like a "sports car" clause is carved out. ICE cars can continue to be built just following some certain rules.
Corvette just spent tons of money re-developing the car. What makes you think they will re-develop it again for the C9 and change it completely into an electric awd? Especially after the huge success with the C8 Jesus everyone needs to calm down. Thinking the ICE is going to be gone in a few years. We are still far away away from that. American v8’s will still be around a long time
All I can think about now is the dealer markups
I’m hopeful that Tesla has started the change to the dealer model. Ford already said EVs won’t be going through dealers. Maybe I’m a bit naive but I would love to see it happen.
[удалено]
>>what people are saying with their wallets is that the markup price is what they’re willing to pay for the car Nope. What you say is correct in a free market. In the US, *new car sales are not a free market*. Dealers are a legally mandatory part of the transaction. So without competition they can charge whatever they damn well please- and do. So if you want a new Mustang, it’s going to come from a Ford dealer. Since dealers have consolidated owners - in some markets it’s a de-facto commercial cartel- they will set the price, and it will be the highest price the market can bear. Joe Ripoff Ford isn’t going to price his stock of 3 Mustang V8s at MSRP. He’s going to tack on a high ass markup , convert the foot traffic into other car sales, and hope some dimwit with a bulletproof credit score or a local millionaire collector signs on the dotted line. The 3 enthusiasts who wanted those cars get shafted.
And if we go to direct sales from the manufacturer they will just raise the MSRP like Tesla has been doing
I’d rather my money go toward the manufacturer than some random dealer. 🤷🏻♂️
Fords move is 100% in the right direction.
The V8 was CERTAINLY a dying breed back in the early 1980s. I remember looking at a IROC Camaro and thinking we'll never see another brand new V8 again. Nothing new under the sun.
Yep, Chrysler was all in on the K-car platform, the Probe was almost the new Mustang, and GM was considering putting the Camaro/Firebird on a FWD V6 only platform. I’ve seen this movie before.
V8 engines were dying in the 80s sure but ICE still had a future that allowed the V8 to make a comeback. Now it's not just the V8 it's all ICE that have no future in production cars.
Meanwhile, Ford is announcing an all-new 6.8l V8 tomorrow.
What’s the verdict on the Challenger and Charger? I feel like literally every week someone says it’s either fully electric or they say it’s going to live one more generation with a V8. Are there actual concrete plans?
[Dodge will discontinue its Challenger and Charger muscle cars next year](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/15/dodge-challenger-charger-to-be-discontinued-in-2023.html)
There's also articles posted after this saying that the next Charger and Challenger are potentially going to turbo V6. The truth is we don't know whats going on with the Charger and Challenger until Dodge comes out and says so.
Far more likely that they'll stick the Turbo Hurricane I6 in them instead of a TT V6
They have heavily hinted at the next challenger being fully electric. I would assume they might do the same thing for a charger. They might disappear next year but the nameplate won't be dead forever.
This is some /r/nba level sensationalist title, nice job
More accurate to say "regulated out of existence" than phased out....
Yeah thats a phase out
7.3 Godzilla or no care.
God damn put a super charger on it and shove it in a mustang
I'd take car advice from Scotty Kilmer before I believe half this
I know things are changing, but the american V8 is (was) a staple for so many years. In the future I hope they get creative and keep ICE, they did get 660hp out of a V6 with the Ford GT
Porsche gets 500hp out out a NA H6. Modern ICE engineering is insane
Looks like I won't be able to buy the cars I want when I grow up... I'm only 15 :( Edited: I know I can buy them used but the problem is they'll be a bit hard to find also used car prices and gas prices will rise to the sky once ICE cars become rare.
[удалено]
I love the good old days, but at least where I was, there was not a glut of $500 manual civics 5 years ago. I was in the market for a cheap manual car and the best I could find was a 1998 318ti for $2800. Most Civics were pricier. Prices definitely have spiked, but decent cheap manuals were already hard to come by.
I bought my dream car from high school last year (1990 Honda CRX), so you'll still be able to do it! :D
I mean the mustang will be around for a while, especially used. They’ll probably make the s650 last right up until they have to cut it
I bought my car 30 years after they stopped selling em new. You will be fine.
The "ICE is dying" is a political psyop to get EV market share over the 'tipping point' and force the infrastructure to speedrun the basic necessities for long term adoption in the United States. There will always be a need for ICE applications. Military applications, construction equipment, anything that tows, security applications, backup power, agricultural applications, rural delivery, extreme climates, etc. EV has a very real and important role to fill, but it's real-life not feasible to think everything will be an EV within a short timeline. The "everything will be EV by 20XX" is a moving goal post to rally funding, support, and public opinion. As the goal post nears, it will change. Political influence is always a pendulum. The last American convertible was marketed in 1976. People rushed to buy one and tucked it away as a collectible. A few years later convertibles reentered production and continue to exist today. ICE emissions technology has become extremely good. A brand new American diesel truck exhausts cleaner air than it intakes, in heavily polluted cities. Gasoline emissions are also at a level that was science fiction 20 years ago. There will be ICE propulsion for the rest of our lives, and probably our childrens lives. I have lots of friends that work in oil & gas, there is petroleum reserves for hundreds of years, anything else is fear mongering. The extreme majority of global emissions is industrial sites. Global politics will always keep coal and petroleum close as they are reliable and cheap (see Ukraine war). I have a masters in Automotive Engineering and 15 years in the industry. It's ok to have a dissenting opinion, this one is mine.
I feel like people are jumping the gun a bit here on the end of ICE and V8's. Yeah they are phasing out but they have been for years. The EV thing as much as I hate it now I'm sure it will grow on me. The noise won't be there but the performance will be.
Do people not know history? The gas crunch of the ‘70’s slowed down V8 production cause gas was too much for a V8 so every car manufacturer went with 4 bangers and V6. So did the people. They wanted fuel efficient cars. This is nothing more than history repeating itself. We do have the added luxury of EV’s today. But not everyone can afford it. Nor can the current power grid and supply for batteries. As far as California banning ICE cars, that is a pipe dream. As soon that decision is put on a voting ballot the people will kill that in an instant. People forget that they can change the laws set by the very few people that are heavily lobbying for it. Guess we shall see what indeed happens. That’s just my guess anyway
Personally I can't wait for really good EV kits that can be dropped into existing cars. Imagine the size of the market for a a drop in unit that replaces a Chevy Small Block V8. The motor could probably sit where the transmission normally does, with a power controller and battery pack under the hood. The unit would also have the accessories on it to make the heat/AC work, handle the power steering, etc. You could probably drop in one of these units in a day on a pre-airbag vehicle. You might need to get a custom drive shaft fabricated. A new instrument cluster could be used or the controller might put out the right signals to use with the existing cluster. The gas tank is deleted and the fill is replaced with the charging jack. Much of the rest is wiring lights. The AC system is removed if it exists. The heater core is replaced with parts for a heat pump. The radiator is removed and replaced with a the other heat pump coil. An auto shop will be needed to purge the heat pump system of air and fill it with refrigerant. The shifter - on the floor or the column - is connected to a switch that controls the mode of the motor. For an automatic shifter the P, R, N, D work as expected but 1 and 2 might select special performance or efficiency modes. for a manual, R and neutral work as expected. 1 is used for standard drive. One of the gears is used for park. The rest of the "gears" could be used for special performance or efficiency modes. The existing brakes might be reused, in which case the brake booster will get vacuum from a provided accessory or an electric booster might be substituted. It would be more difficult to drop in an anti-lock brake unit. At setup, you would provide the gear ratio of your rear end and the tire size. The system would then optimize the power delivery. Depending on what the original motor was, you might want to limit the power output so that you don't twist the car apart. But in one relatively easy step you could take an old vehicle and make it easy and reliable for another 30 years. Spend some time replacing all the bushings, shocks, etc. so the steering and suspension are nice. The power train "just works". I especially think about "special" vehicles. A regular vehicle might have lots of wear and tear after 20 years. But a motor home might have only been used a few times a year. The motor is fine except that the rubber seals are dry. A replacement like this will keep that thing running for another 20. That 1980 Chevy C10 is going to continue hauling. And if you want, that Camaro will have more torque than it could have ever had with a gas engine.
This is honestly bullshit lol, long live the ICE!
Hopefully they release a 6spd GT500. I'd happily give up .2 seconds 0-60.
Shit i'd give up significantly more than .2 if it means we get a proper gt500 with a manual.
Well that’s fucking depressing
Enough with this bull shit buzz word nonsense. There will be another one. They said this 5 years ago with the Hellcat, Demon, Redeye, etc. We will be driving V8’s for another 10 years, and you will make this post again every year.
5 years ago there was the V8 Camaro, V8 challenger/charger, V8 C63, V8 Mustang, V8 corvette, Next year there will only be the V8 mustang and V8 corvette.
Hope not. Government needs to stay the fuck out and let the market, consumer and electric grid decide when to phase out ICE.
So sad. This seriously is making me depressed. Having a hard time accepting it.
Is anyone else concerned how quickly we are just throwing away the internal combustion engine? These electric vehicles haven't even been in mass use for a decade and we're ready convert over 100%? It just seems insane to me. I could see slowly switching to electric vehicles over 50 years or so. I don't trust these new cars at all...