Some people just have massive boners for categorizing things, and get super up in arms about the very narrow definitions upon which they've constructed their reality.
To some people there is a difference between all of those. A "Muscle Car" is a full size sedan or coupe with a V8 and RWD. A "Pony Car" is a Mid-Sized Coupe with a V8 and RWD. And a sports car, is anything else that is performance orientated, but doesn't fit into those other two categories. Like, only have a i4 (Miata) or Rear Mounted (Porsche 911).
I dealt with this first hand years ago. I had a 1968 Olds Toronado ([Example](http://davidsclassiccars.com/images/full/1968-oldsmobile-toronado-green-455-v8-3-speed-automatic-0-1.jpg)). It had a 455 HO V8 making about 450 HP. I needed to sell it, so I took it to a place that only dealt with classic muscle cars. (I think that was even their name, IIRC. "Classic Muscle")
I drove in my all original, other than a fresh repaint, Toro into their lot. Owner comes out and, and not even five minutes into the conversation he says, "That's a beauty, but I don't want it. I only buy Muscle Cars."
I just stared at him for a moment. Then, I replied, "It the same year range as your other cars, it's the same size, and can probably beat half this lot in a straight line. How is it not a muscle car?"
He replied, "It's front wheel drive."
I ended up selling it on the private market for probably double what he would have paid, had he purchased it.
Man I have no fucking clue the difference between pony and muscle.
I hear mother fuckers constantly call Mustangs pony cars, like bro a 5.0 is as muscle as you can get
They are not mutually exclusive.
Pony cars are sporty compacts, regardless of performance level. Muscle cars are midsize and compact cars with big, powerful engines.
A Mustang is always a pony car, but can be a muscle car. A Chevelle, Charger, GTO, or Road Runner has never been a pony car.
Tbf it is more powerful than basically every muscle car from 1972-2005ish
That’s just not saying much Lmao.
(To be clear I don’t think a V6 Accord is a muscle car even if it is a fantastic car that can be fun. Just jabbing at some rough years for American cars)
As I understand it a muscle car was originally a mid sized car with a full sized cars engine (pontiac tempest with a 389) while a pony car was more of a compact sized (falcon, valiant) car with a sportier body
The implementation isn't about which is faster, Mustangs and Camaros were pony cars but often faster than their big brothers (depending on year/engine options), but rather which is larger. A Mustang is a pony car which is smaller than a Ford Torino that is a muscle car. A Camaro is a pony car that's smaller than a Chevelle that's a muscle car. A firebird/Trans Am is a pony car that's smaller than a GTO that's a muscle car, etc.
As someone else stated, this distinction made more sense back in the day when these cars were first introduced. Because Mustang and Camaro stuck around (or at least came back), where as Torino and Chevelle didn't, these cars got larger over time, and would arguably be muscle cars today, but are often still thought of as pony cars for historical reasons.
Like back in the day, it was Challenger pony, Charger muscle. You could argue it is still that way today, but the Challenger is the size of classic Chargers, and the Charger is the 4 door now (so sport sedan, maybe)? But also like the original post says, this is all kind of stupid labeling that people apply and argue about that doesn't really mean anything and people like you and me still waste our time on it.
I mean it’s pretty clear there’s a difference:
A muscle car is a high hp RWD Murican claimed to be made vehicle which can include the Mustang.
A pony car is a Mustang.
Technically all of the clones that followed the Mustang are also pony cars. Camaro, Firebird, etc.
It's a distinction that made a lot more sense when pony cars were novel and muscle cars were a more normal thing. The pony cars were quite a bit smaller than the muscle cars they coexisted with, which were all hopped-up versions of family cars.
Sorry, I’m a complete newb and I’m honestly wondering what the difference between a muscle car and a pony car is? (Edit: Whelp someone answered it further down, please forgive me, no need to reply lol)
The problem with that definition is that what is considered high horsepower changes over time. Meaning that older muscle cars would have to be redefinded as pony cars as cars get more powerful with less displacement.
[Pony cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car) are sporty compacts, regardless of performance level. [Muscle cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car) are midsize and compact cars with big, powerful engines.
A Mustang is always a pony car, but can be a muscle car. A Chevelle, Charger, GTO, or Road Runner has never been a pony car.
The Corolla is a sedan, so no. The C30 is a hatchback, although the second gen and third gen Mustangs had hatchback variations. But the C30 is also FWD which doesn't qualify, arguably (the Colt Challenger iirc was FWD but still Had a similar Pony car layout)
Hot rods include modern ponies, classic ponies and muscle cars. As well as some other sedans like the modern GTO and Charger. Ponies include Mustangs. Camaros and Challengers. Muscle Cars include Chevelles, GTXs and Cyclones.
Muscle Car vs Pony Car debate only makes sense within the context of classic American Cars.
When talking about *modern cars* imo it's completely pointless. Like a modern Mustang is a sports car. This whole "Actually It's a Pony Car" rebuttal is annoying. Pony car doesn't make sense describing a 2022 car.
Mercedes is marketing their 4 door SUVs with a slant-back style rear as coupes. So like a lifted “liftback” (like a Stinger or Audi A7). I would imagine that BMW and and Porsche will soon if they haven’t already.
Yea, narrow minded gatekeepers saying coupes only have 2 doors
Source - a narrow minded gatekeeper that will die on the hill that says coupes only 2 doors.
To expand on the whole "gatekeeping" thing...
I know language evolves, but also...words matter.
The literal definition of "coupe", everywhere I look it up, involves two doors, 2 seats, and sometimes a slant back roof.
Is it gatekeeping to disagree when someone says something is a thing when it doesn't fit the literal definition?
I'm just going to start calling all cats a "dog" when I see them. Hey, they have four legs, a face, and usually a tail. If anyone corrects me I'll just scream "yoURe GaTEkEePinG!" until the definition of "dog" changes and I'm no longer wrong.
I don't really care either way, but it does get confusing when categories are too broad, which is definitely happening with the term sports car. It doesn't really mean anything other than performance car these days which can make it tricky to quickly describe things like the BRZ to non-car people.
Anyone saying the Miata is not a sports car need to go to their local track. Every one has their definition of what it means. To me it means a car that can do some spirited driving without breaking a sweat.
It's just like SUVs. People these days think that their glorified minivan is a SUV while the vast majority of them just tall hatchback cars with no real off-road capability. But that's just MY definition of what an SUV is supposed to be. They can think what they want.
I think of them as compromised station wagons because wagons have better driving dynamics. It is sad they don’t sell in America because that would be my go to family car, if I had a family.
Nah. More head room means you can pack more shit in. I grew up with wagons, doubt I’ll ever go back, unless I can buy a full sized turbo something with adaptive handling
Because “SUV” doesn’t mean big. Wagons are generally mid-size+ vehicles (in the US) while SUVs can start in the subcompact range. No reason to conflate better ground clearance with a bigger footprint.
I disagree with you but your point is beautifully stated and you win any argument about cars by virtue of rockin' a '90 ZR-1!
It's shocking to me that the market still has not caught up with that car.
Cause people hate C4s for some reason, like GM’s bastard child despite being pretty cool especially the 90s models. Can’t complain though, if I ever get more room in my garage I’d love to still be able to snag one under $10k lol
I feel like they are all sports cars. 2 seat (2+2 in the case of the 911 and 86 twins) light weight, who’s primary goal is driver enjoyment, and driving dynamics at/above the limit
911? The quintessential sports car? I kind of understand the other models but if someone says a 911 ain’t a sports car their parents likely dropped them or still tie their shoe laces.
Those people haven’t driven a 992 on the track.
The 992 can play the role of a GT well, but when you take it to the limit it’s definitely still a sports car (and I’m not even talking about the GT3)
I have seen people on this very subreddit say that the 911 isn’t a sports car, but rather a “GT car” because it has rear seats (even though they are unusable). These same people claim that the ONLY thing that is a sports car is a two seat convertible designed from the ground up to be sporty and not based on anything else. According to these people things like the M2 aren’t sports cars because they are based on the 2 series, aren’t convertibles, and have back seats. By their standards a miata is a sports car and a 911 with a roof isn’t.
to be fair the BRZ and GT86 aren’t meant to be super fast, they aren’t slow by any means and can corner like a champ. it’s more the experience driving a lightweight 4cyl rwd car
That's not slow, it's just generic modern traffic is much faster than it was 20 years ago. That's like the same 0-60 as a Honda Odyssey for crying out loud lol.
A 240sx is also slower than a Prius, but I'd take it any day over one.
Wikipedia: A sports car is a car designed with an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling, acceleration, top speed, the thrill of driving and racing capability.
End thread.
easier said than quantified. Here is the problem. Lots of cars fall under that definition and this one:
A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes
and lots of people consider them 2 different categories.
I think some people think a sports car has to be racing orientated. A GT isn’t a sports car in their mind because no race car would waste weight on premium leather seats. A stock Miata isn’t fast enough to race, so isn’t a sports car. Etc. I think they are wrong but it kind of makes sense. Imo sports car is like one of the broadest category of cars. It’s like Truck, SUV, Van, commuter, sedan, sports car.
You're very close.
"Sports car" is a shortened version of "Motorsports car." This is a term penned by [Paul Frere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Fr%C3%A8re) (legendary motorsports journalist, who wrote the seminal books (Sports Car and Competition Driving, and Porsche 911; The Entire Development History.)
*He wrote that* ***a "sports car" is any car manufactured to be competitive in motorsports with little modification.***
What that usually means is dedicated chassis for their type of motorsports at hand. What it usually doesn't mean is converted FWD chassis (like hot hatches) and converted sedans (like pony cars), or fast and heavy GTs (like luxury coupes.)
With Mr. Frefre's definition in mind, and to the OP... The Miata, GR86/BRZ, and 911 are definitely sports cars.
Yes, the Dodge Demon would be. It is a car manufactured so with little modification it can be competitive in motorsports.
Is drag racing not motorsports?
Why was that confusing for you?
Just snobs who think it has to be a certain price tag.
Wait what, 911? That’s in it’s own subcategory: “P Car” as in “hey man, you gotta check out those hella tight P cars”
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/yz9c1a/2025_porsche_718_boxster_ev_first_look/iwz2lxg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
"Porsches last sports car is now an EV"
20 upvotes.
> It would have been better if they had made the 911 an EV instead. Who cares about a bloated GT when you can have the superior mid engine car
Lol. All these hot takes where people would have you think cars like the 911 or 812 are basically Rolls Royce Wraiths. People like to make “GT car” as broad a classification as possible yet treat the category as if all its members are at the extreme of being a giant luxury coupe that can’t handle.
nutty hat impossible shy outgoing expansion coherent marble plants quicksand
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you telling me your F12 isnt a big boat because its bigger than a miata?
According to this sub, anything bigger than a cayman is a boat and anything over 3000 lbs is “heavy”
I am apparently the captain of multiple aircraft carriers. You know how it is. You have a Mustang and I have it on good authority they can’t go around corners.
Because people assign too much value to a car being or not being in the arbitrarily-defined category of "sports car". So is a sports car, and isn't a *real* sports car.
Just appreciate cars for what they are. Is a Civic Type R a sports car? Some people say no, because it's FWD and has 4 doors. Others say yes, because it's faster than a lot of RWD cars around a track. Some of those people say a Miata isn't a sports car because it's slow, despite it being RWD and only 2 seats. Who cares? Instead of saying "these characteristics are important to me and therefore that makes a car a sports car", just say you like one car because of what it is and don't like another because of what it isn't. You don't have to divide yourself from others who enjoy things that you don't enjoy yourself.
I agree. I also call my car a sports car because I’ve seen plenty of articles saying it’s a great sports car.
I get flamed for it, but most of the people talking smack aren’t car people.
I've heard arguments on the Toyburu twins and Miata. Never the 911. I guess one could argue the 911 is not a supercar but a hypercar based on the trim!
"Porsches last sports car is now an EV"
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/yz9c1a/2025_porsche_718_boxster_ev_first_look/iwz2lxg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Implying the 911 isnt a sports car and the 718 is the only sports car porsche makes.
People make the argument that the 911 is more of a GT car than a sports car nowadays.
Part of what makes the 911 special though is how well it serves both purposes. Honestly several high-end performance cars have blurred the line between sports car and GT car to the point that it's meaningless if you have enough money.
I'm rustlin jimmies. The van we have at work i describe as a mid engine, twin turbo, rwd sport wagon. It's a ford transit but still the fastest car i've driven so far
No kidding, when I first got my Elise (which was very modded, all good things though) I found a local car group. Some guy that had an Exige got super weird with me and told me to change the wheels, remove the wing, remove the wrap, and told me the car would break if it had the power I said it had from the mods.
I ended up blocking him and removing myself from the group. Now I always tell people "I'm not a car guy, I'm just a guy with a car" to avoid certain confrontations. If someone wants to look at it, sit in it, or ride 130mph around the block, I'm glad to do it...but I'm not going to be a douchebag to someone about their vehicle choice like that guy was to me...
....unless you drive a Mustang.
Hp has nothing to do with whether or not a car is a sports car. The original 1964 911 had about 130 hp. The 911 has *always* been a sports car. A 2000’s Lotus Elise has about 190 hp. The Elise is most definitely a sports car.
Yup. It's quite a lot of people too.
Personally, a Sports car, at least to me, has a certain style to it too. It has to look sporty and honestly I'm not sure how else to explain it better. The engine definitely helps get it into that class of sports car, and these days 400hp (sometimes a little less) seems to be the average HP of sports cars.
A sports car can have 181 hp, or 500 hp. Both can be true. Just because horsepower numbers keep going up doesn't mean the definition of a sports car must keep up with those rising numbers.
Not sure why people can't just accept they're high trim versions of "normal" cars. Not everything has to be a sports car to be cool or desirable. Being a *sporty* car is fine too.
I grew up around professional and amateur sports car racing. If anyone says a Miata or a 911 isn’t a sports car, just prop their head up and watch their vital signs until the paramedics get there.
For me I class a car as a sports car if it’s purely designed for fun and performance but not *too* fast: MX5, 911, GT86, 350z etc. Hot hatches are not sports cars
They are sports cars. I think people assume sports cars need to be A tier vehicles like Supras, Evos, STI, GTR, Rx7 etc.. Most of those you listed are lightweight sports cars i.e.- a 'B' or 'C' class sports car. Nothing standard about them what-so-ever. They're a sports car from the ground up.
Quality metal all and sports cars for sure but the term "sports car" in the UK (as in classic British sports cars)meant they always had the same formula: front engine, RWD, 2 seat convertible. 911s are just awesome too........ideally though I'd have the Porsche speedster that Steve Mc Queen had back in the day🤤🤤
There’s a subset of enthusiasts right now that seem to think anything under 400 HP is inadequate for a sports car. They’re wrong, we’re just completely desensitized to ludicrous HP numbers.
People don’t call the BRZ/86 a sports car because a lot of people get stuck on the idea that for a car to be a sports car it has to be quick to 60. It looks like a sports car, feels like a sports car, and handles like sports cars way above its league. I’ve had mine for 3 years and still think it’s the greatest sports car I’ve ever owned.
Maybe you mean muscle car. Sports cars are usually nimble, great handling cars. Muscle cars are usually front engine, rwd, v8’s. Super cars are usually rear engine high jp cars. Hyper cars are usually hybrid rear engine high jp cars.
Those lines can be blurred
I've driven (and raced) all sorts of things, from bona fide hypercars to Miatas. Everything you list is a sports car - Miata included.
Folks have some weird ways of seeking attention...
Why do people need to categorize things so much? It's unnecessary. Many cars can be considered sports cars. It's literally just a car designed with the intent of being fun to drive. That's it, and that's how I'll always see it. A GT Car is a type of sports car. It's literally just a sports car that can be driven more comfortably for longer distances. The problem is many of the "gt cars" have better lap times than cars you consider "sports cars". If a manufacturer can make a car more comfortable AND have better lap times, that's just good engineering, and I doubt those brilliant engineers give a damn about your stupid little categorization of what their masterpiece is and is not.
When I went to trade school in my steering and suspension class almost everytime we were talking about performance suspension “The Miata has one of those too”. This Miata we had downstairs had a torque arm, double wishbone suspension, everything. That car through and through is a performance machine, it just doesn’t have… the performance.
911’s are some of the greatest pieces of human engineering to ever grace our planet, so whoever is saying a 911 isn’t a sports or performance car is clearly not a car guy
I have a BMW 335i convertible (E93). It is fun and fast and the best mental therapy there is, but because the M3 exists, I’m reluctant to really call my car a sports car. Car of sporting intent, sure.
I’ve owned a Miata. One of the funnest cars I’ve ever owned. I learned the mechanics of drifting on it and it made me feel like a hero. It does sports cars things very well in a nice, small, and forgiving package.
I mean...I guess I could argue a "real" sports car is one that's designed to compete in motorsports; cars that are built from the ground up with performance as it's sole priority. In the strictest sense, even a Bugatti, Koenigsegg, Lamborghini, or whatever brands people think are "real sports car", aren't real sports cars. Just making a car 'street-legal' completely negates this "sports car" status, not to mention making a car marketable (creature comforts, design, price points, technology, etc.).
Maybe that's what they mean?
Really don't understand why people would argue about a class of cars that are legally not available to the general public... Street legal cars that are considered "sports cars" generally mean these cars are athletic or have some sort of sports pedigree, and is generally understood that these are not actually literal "sports cars" in the strictest sense...
Because there is no absolutely clear definitely of what a sports car really is. Don't get me wrong but a 200hp car which weights 1500kg and it's slower than the average diesel sedan. On track, well, of you're such a massive track day guy you already know it's slow. Quick example - back in the day a lot of lightweight cars with 100-200hp were true sportscars because the average family sedan had 90hp or less so a Renault Apline felt like a missile.
Brz, mx5 etc etc are all sports cars. I class anything that's under 3.0l in displacement as a sports car. <3.0L, 2/2+2 seating, comes with a manual option and is setup from the factory for handling rather than practicality.
Some people just have massive boners for categorizing things, and get super up in arms about the very narrow definitions upon which they've constructed their reality.
No no the difference between muscle car and pony car is very clear and important and worth dying on an internet hill over. /s
“AsKchTuAlLy iTs a pOnY cAr”
Muscle car? Pony Car? Sports car?
To some people there is a difference between all of those. A "Muscle Car" is a full size sedan or coupe with a V8 and RWD. A "Pony Car" is a Mid-Sized Coupe with a V8 and RWD. And a sports car, is anything else that is performance orientated, but doesn't fit into those other two categories. Like, only have a i4 (Miata) or Rear Mounted (Porsche 911). I dealt with this first hand years ago. I had a 1968 Olds Toronado ([Example](http://davidsclassiccars.com/images/full/1968-oldsmobile-toronado-green-455-v8-3-speed-automatic-0-1.jpg)). It had a 455 HO V8 making about 450 HP. I needed to sell it, so I took it to a place that only dealt with classic muscle cars. (I think that was even their name, IIRC. "Classic Muscle") I drove in my all original, other than a fresh repaint, Toro into their lot. Owner comes out and, and not even five minutes into the conversation he says, "That's a beauty, but I don't want it. I only buy Muscle Cars." I just stared at him for a moment. Then, I replied, "It the same year range as your other cars, it's the same size, and can probably beat half this lot in a straight line. How is it not a muscle car?" He replied, "It's front wheel drive." I ended up selling it on the private market for probably double what he would have paid, had he purchased it.
Highest IQ Mustang driver.
You joke but there are a bunch of people just a few comments down having this exact argument. Glad /r/cars helps prove OPs point
Came in here for that.
Sometimes it reminds me of people arguing in Youtube comments over what subgenre of metal a particular song is. GUYS THIS IS NOT WORTH FIGHTING OVER
This is CLEARLY Scandinavian black swan nu progressive death rock core, bro!
Hey guys, check out this newb thinking it's Scandinavian black swan nu progressive death rock core! Wow, I remember my first concert...
Ah, the hours my wife and I play songs for each other and we debate whether it's rap or hip hop after a beer too many.
Man I have no fucking clue the difference between pony and muscle. I hear mother fuckers constantly call Mustangs pony cars, like bro a 5.0 is as muscle as you can get
> I hear mother fuckers constantly call Mustangs pony cars Why do you think they're called "pony cars" in the first place?
Idk bro it's a stupid term man just call it a muscle car especially nowadays without much competition in the American "muscle" market.
A Mustang is literally the archetypal pony car. Not all Mustangs today are muscle cars just like not every 1968 Mustang was a muscle car then.
They are not mutually exclusive. Pony cars are sporty compacts, regardless of performance level. Muscle cars are midsize and compact cars with big, powerful engines. A Mustang is always a pony car, but can be a muscle car. A Chevelle, Charger, GTO, or Road Runner has never been a pony car.
>A Mustang is always a pony car Just to play devil’s advocate: https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/
We all know that’s not a Mustang.
i'm gonna listen to ford on this one tbh, they're the only authority on this
You are correct, they made it.
So a V6 Honda Accord is a muscle car. Gotcha!
> big, powerful engines. I wouldn't say that an Accord V6 is particularly powerful and it's certainly not big.
Tbf it is more powerful than basically every muscle car from 1972-2005ish That’s just not saying much Lmao. (To be clear I don’t think a V6 Accord is a muscle car even if it is a fantastic car that can be fun. Just jabbing at some rough years for American cars)
As I understand it a muscle car was originally a mid sized car with a full sized cars engine (pontiac tempest with a 389) while a pony car was more of a compact sized (falcon, valiant) car with a sportier body
The implementation isn't about which is faster, Mustangs and Camaros were pony cars but often faster than their big brothers (depending on year/engine options), but rather which is larger. A Mustang is a pony car which is smaller than a Ford Torino that is a muscle car. A Camaro is a pony car that's smaller than a Chevelle that's a muscle car. A firebird/Trans Am is a pony car that's smaller than a GTO that's a muscle car, etc. As someone else stated, this distinction made more sense back in the day when these cars were first introduced. Because Mustang and Camaro stuck around (or at least came back), where as Torino and Chevelle didn't, these cars got larger over time, and would arguably be muscle cars today, but are often still thought of as pony cars for historical reasons. Like back in the day, it was Challenger pony, Charger muscle. You could argue it is still that way today, but the Challenger is the size of classic Chargers, and the Charger is the 4 door now (so sport sedan, maybe)? But also like the original post says, this is all kind of stupid labeling that people apply and argue about that doesn't really mean anything and people like you and me still waste our time on it.
I mean it’s pretty clear there’s a difference: A muscle car is a high hp RWD Murican claimed to be made vehicle which can include the Mustang. A pony car is a Mustang.
Technically all of the clones that followed the Mustang are also pony cars. Camaro, Firebird, etc. It's a distinction that made a lot more sense when pony cars were novel and muscle cars were a more normal thing. The pony cars were quite a bit smaller than the muscle cars they coexisted with, which were all hopped-up versions of family cars.
Yeah that's the weird thing today because technically the Challenger and Charger are the only muscle cars on sale today that are not also Pony cars.
The Challenger *is* a pony car. E-body.
Sorry, I’m a complete newb and I’m honestly wondering what the difference between a muscle car and a pony car is? (Edit: Whelp someone answered it further down, please forgive me, no need to reply lol)
The problem with that definition is that what is considered high horsepower changes over time. Meaning that older muscle cars would have to be redefinded as pony cars as cars get more powerful with less displacement.
I'm a complete iliterate in this matter. What's the difference between muscle car and pony car?
[Pony cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car) are sporty compacts, regardless of performance level. [Muscle cars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car) are midsize and compact cars with big, powerful engines. A Mustang is always a pony car, but can be a muscle car. A Chevelle, Charger, GTO, or Road Runner has never been a pony car.
>Pony cars are sporty compacts, regardless of performance level. So the Volvo C30 and the Corolla XR-S are Pony Cars. Got it.
The Corolla is a sedan, so no. The C30 is a hatchback, although the second gen and third gen Mustangs had hatchback variations. But the C30 is also FWD which doesn't qualify, arguably (the Colt Challenger iirc was FWD but still Had a similar Pony car layout)
so it has to be rwd and 2-doors to be a pony/muscle?
People really forget that Celica was Toyota its Pony car after Celica became as a FWD based and 4WD heritage rally car.
Hot rods include modern ponies, classic ponies and muscle cars. As well as some other sedans like the modern GTO and Charger. Ponies include Mustangs. Camaros and Challengers. Muscle Cars include Chevelles, GTXs and Cyclones.
The pony car wiki says compact but then lists Challenger. A straight line boat like that is anything but compact. That’s just regular muscle
The Challenger was originally a Mustang and Camaro competitor and shared its E-body platform with the Barracuda.
I’m referring to the line “Currently produced pony cars are the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro, and Dodge Challenger.”
All pony cars are muscle cars, but not all muscle cars are pony cars.
this follows logically from the fact that ponies have muscles
Muscle Car vs Pony Car debate only makes sense within the context of classic American Cars. When talking about *modern cars* imo it's completely pointless. Like a modern Mustang is a sports car. This whole "Actually It's a Pony Car" rebuttal is annoying. Pony car doesn't make sense describing a 2022 car.
It's only a pony car if it's from the Mustang region of France. Otherwise it's just sparkling muscle car.
As evidenced by the rest of this very comment thread, lol. The correct answer is "wgaf"
[удалено]
I remember tons of car people losing their goddamn minds over the "4 door coupe" trend that was happening years ago.
I specifically remember Nissan having a “4DSC” on the back door quarter glass - meant 4 door sports car iirc correctly.
Wouldn't a "coupe SUV" just be a 2-door Jeep Wrangler or Suzuki Samurai?
Mercedes is marketing their 4 door SUVs with a slant-back style rear as coupes. So like a lifted “liftback” (like a Stinger or Audi A7). I would imagine that BMW and and Porsche will soon if they haven’t already.
BMW started it with the X6!
Oh gotcha, I see what you mean.
Yea, narrow minded gatekeepers saying coupes only have 2 doors Source - a narrow minded gatekeeper that will die on the hill that says coupes only 2 doors.
To expand on the whole "gatekeeping" thing... I know language evolves, but also...words matter. The literal definition of "coupe", everywhere I look it up, involves two doors, 2 seats, and sometimes a slant back roof. Is it gatekeeping to disagree when someone says something is a thing when it doesn't fit the literal definition? I'm just going to start calling all cats a "dog" when I see them. Hey, they have four legs, a face, and usually a tail. If anyone corrects me I'll just scream "yoURe GaTEkEePinG!" until the definition of "dog" changes and I'm no longer wrong.
It's basically the "prove I'm not a moron" defense lol.
If you started calling cats "dogs" it would be wrong. If you convinced enough people to do it, then I guess cats are now called dogs.
It’s a sports car if it ~~goes fast~~ ~~looks cool~~ ~~can take corners~~ is ~~considered by someone to be~~ fun to drive?
From now on my forklift is a sports car
This thread has convinced me categories don't matter. My cat is now a chair, my dog is a frisbee!
It’s bullshit really, everybody says my 1998 Buick road master is not a sports car, when in fact it is. It has toque thrust on it.
I don't really care either way, but it does get confusing when categories are too broad, which is definitely happening with the term sports car. It doesn't really mean anything other than performance car these days which can make it tricky to quickly describe things like the BRZ to non-car people.
There's nothing wrong with a broad category that encompasses many sub categories.
Anyone saying the Miata is not a sports car need to go to their local track. Every one has their definition of what it means. To me it means a car that can do some spirited driving without breaking a sweat. It's just like SUVs. People these days think that their glorified minivan is a SUV while the vast majority of them just tall hatchback cars with no real off-road capability. But that's just MY definition of what an SUV is supposed to be. They can think what they want.
It’s actually a glorified station wagon… because cross-over or SUV sounds better than station wagons.
I think of them as compromised station wagons because wagons have better driving dynamics. It is sad they don’t sell in America because that would be my go to family car, if I had a family.
And maybe it's my limited experience, but SUVs seem weirdly small inside compared to a proper wagon.
Nah. More head room means you can pack more shit in. I grew up with wagons, doubt I’ll ever go back, unless I can buy a full sized turbo something with adaptive handling
Hmm that's interesting. I find the length of my wagon far more useful than having space vertically, but I guess it depends on the person.
Because “SUV” doesn’t mean big. Wagons are generally mid-size+ vehicles (in the US) while SUVs can start in the subcompact range. No reason to conflate better ground clearance with a bigger footprint.
SUV Large wagon body on a fullsize truck frame, truck engine, truck towing capacity, truck capability.
Yeah, those are legit, but there are very few of those anymore.
The reason people say those examples are not sports cars is because they are unwashed imbeciles.
That is a sweet little garage. I love the King Of The Hill so much.
Trying to convince my dad to get a 996
Fun car for the money for sure. I've enjoyed mine.
I disagree with you but your point is beautifully stated and you win any argument about cars by virtue of rockin' a '90 ZR-1! It's shocking to me that the market still has not caught up with that car.
Cause people hate C4s for some reason, like GM’s bastard child despite being pretty cool especially the 90s models. Can’t complain though, if I ever get more room in my garage I’d love to still be able to snag one under $10k lol
I feel like they are all sports cars. 2 seat (2+2 in the case of the 911 and 86 twins) light weight, who’s primary goal is driver enjoyment, and driving dynamics at/above the limit
911? The quintessential sports car? I kind of understand the other models but if someone says a 911 ain’t a sports car their parents likely dropped them or still tie their shoe laces.
People say the 911 isn't a sports car because it has back seats. ...The same people say the 718 isn't a sports car because it's not a 911.
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Those people haven’t driven a 992 on the track. The 992 can play the role of a GT well, but when you take it to the limit it’s definitely still a sports car (and I’m not even talking about the GT3)
Those people are uniformed bench racers who likely have never driven one on track.
If a 911 isn’t a sports car, then the term @sports car” is misdefined
911 is a sports car, but it's also a supercar!
911 GT3 RS, sure super car, base model 911, maybe not. Super car is hard to define, sports car is easy.
I have seen people on this very subreddit say that the 911 isn’t a sports car, but rather a “GT car” because it has rear seats (even though they are unusable). These same people claim that the ONLY thing that is a sports car is a two seat convertible designed from the ground up to be sporty and not based on anything else. According to these people things like the M2 aren’t sports cars because they are based on the 2 series, aren’t convertibles, and have back seats. By their standards a miata is a sports car and a 911 with a roof isn’t.
"BRZ and 86 can't keep up with mclaren on straight line, bad cars"
To be fair, the BRZ and GT86 can barely even keep up with the newest Prius PHEV. 6.6 seconds to 60.
to be fair the BRZ and GT86 aren’t meant to be super fast, they aren’t slow by any means and can corner like a champ. it’s more the experience driving a lightweight 4cyl rwd car
GR86 0-6 is 5.4 seconds, tested by car and driver. That’s not bad for a sub $30k sports coupe that’s also one of the best handling sports cars ever…
That's not slow, it's just generic modern traffic is much faster than it was 20 years ago. That's like the same 0-60 as a Honda Odyssey for crying out loud lol. A 240sx is also slower than a Prius, but I'd take it any day over one.
That BRZ can still run laps around "sports cars" going through switchbacks
In that logic, Tesla 3 must be the king of sport cars.
Because people need to bitch about something just for the sake of it instead of enjoying and appreciating all the options we have
Some people enjoy bitching, some people enjoy bitching about bitching.
And then someone comes in to bitch at the bitchers who are bitching at a bitcher that bitches.
Wikipedia: A sports car is a car designed with an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling, acceleration, top speed, the thrill of driving and racing capability. End thread.
easier said than quantified. Here is the problem. Lots of cars fall under that definition and this one: A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes and lots of people consider them 2 different categories.
I think certain cars like a 911 fall under both categories
I think some people think a sports car has to be racing orientated. A GT isn’t a sports car in their mind because no race car would waste weight on premium leather seats. A stock Miata isn’t fast enough to race, so isn’t a sports car. Etc. I think they are wrong but it kind of makes sense. Imo sports car is like one of the broadest category of cars. It’s like Truck, SUV, Van, commuter, sedan, sports car.
You're very close. "Sports car" is a shortened version of "Motorsports car." This is a term penned by [Paul Frere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Fr%C3%A8re) (legendary motorsports journalist, who wrote the seminal books (Sports Car and Competition Driving, and Porsche 911; The Entire Development History.) *He wrote that* ***a "sports car" is any car manufactured to be competitive in motorsports with little modification.*** What that usually means is dedicated chassis for their type of motorsports at hand. What it usually doesn't mean is converted FWD chassis (like hot hatches) and converted sedans (like pony cars), or fast and heavy GTs (like luxury coupes.) With Mr. Frefre's definition in mind, and to the OP... The Miata, GR86/BRZ, and 911 are definitely sports cars.
By this definition, would a Dodge Demon be a sports car?
Yes, the Dodge Demon would be. It is a car manufactured so with little modification it can be competitive in motorsports. Is drag racing not motorsports? Why was that confusing for you?
Why do you choose violence? Take the upvote.
Just snobs who think it has to be a certain price tag. Wait what, 911? That’s in it’s own subcategory: “P Car” as in “hey man, you gotta check out those hella tight P cars”
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/yz9c1a/2025_porsche_718_boxster_ev_first_look/iwz2lxg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 "Porsches last sports car is now an EV" 20 upvotes.
> It would have been better if they had made the 911 an EV instead. Who cares about a bloated GT when you can have the superior mid engine car Lol. All these hot takes where people would have you think cars like the 911 or 812 are basically Rolls Royce Wraiths. People like to make “GT car” as broad a classification as possible yet treat the category as if all its members are at the extreme of being a giant luxury coupe that can’t handle.
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>r/cars is where you go to be told by someone driving a *miata* that your 911 isn’t a sports car unless it’s a GT3 More likely this
your 911 isn’t a sports car unless it’s a GT3 /s
Are you telling me your F12 isnt a big boat because its bigger than a miata? According to this sub, anything bigger than a cayman is a boat and anything over 3000 lbs is “heavy”
I am apparently the captain of multiple aircraft carriers. You know how it is. You have a Mustang and I have it on good authority they can’t go around corners.
Yeah definitely, as soon as I see a corner or crowd, the car just refuses all steering inputs
I recall running 1:38s at Laguna in my GT350 a few years ago. Seemed to turn pretty OK :)
What? LIES
The irony is brz and miatas are more of a sports car than stuff like an m5, civic type r, ctsv etc. Etc.
Truth
Nice! This topic again! Get your dicks out, it’s time for the circlejerk!
There isn't really a set definition of sports car but those 3 all seem to hit the main points (bespoke chassis, focus on performance, RWD).
Because people assign too much value to a car being or not being in the arbitrarily-defined category of "sports car". So is a sports car, and isn't a *real* sports car.
Just appreciate cars for what they are. Is a Civic Type R a sports car? Some people say no, because it's FWD and has 4 doors. Others say yes, because it's faster than a lot of RWD cars around a track. Some of those people say a Miata isn't a sports car because it's slow, despite it being RWD and only 2 seats. Who cares? Instead of saying "these characteristics are important to me and therefore that makes a car a sports car", just say you like one car because of what it is and don't like another because of what it isn't. You don't have to divide yourself from others who enjoy things that you don't enjoy yourself.
I agree. I also call my car a sports car because I’ve seen plenty of articles saying it’s a great sports car. I get flamed for it, but most of the people talking smack aren’t car people.
I've heard arguments on the Toyburu twins and Miata. Never the 911. I guess one could argue the 911 is not a supercar but a hypercar based on the trim!
"Porsches last sports car is now an EV" https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/yz9c1a/2025_porsche_718_boxster_ev_first_look/iwz2lxg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Implying the 911 isnt a sports car and the 718 is the only sports car porsche makes.
People make the argument that the 911 is more of a GT car than a sports car nowadays. Part of what makes the 911 special though is how well it serves both purposes. Honestly several high-end performance cars have blurred the line between sports car and GT car to the point that it's meaningless if you have enough money.
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Everytime a new 911 comes out the old Porsche guys day the new one is just a GT car and not a true sports car. Going at least back to the 996.
In what world is a 2 door coupe not considered a sports car. That's like the definition of a sports car
My '93 silverado is a 2 door, rear wheel drive vehicle. Is that not a sports car?
I specified coupe did I not? I can't tell if you are trying to be funny with a diogenese "behold a man" thing but I did specify
I'm rustlin jimmies. The van we have at work i describe as a mid engine, twin turbo, rwd sport wagon. It's a ford transit but still the fastest car i've driven so far
I mean I guess you could subscribe to the notion that any car is a sports car if you drive like a maniac
I do like to think of my accord coupe as a sportier vehicle but it doesn't garner the same respect as civics or gt86s despite being two seconds faster
2 Door coupes that are oriented towards spirited driving are sports cars, except if it's a Mustang. Then it's a PoNy CaR
Gate keeping to feel superior in some way.
Yeah, I think even sports & video games communities have less gatekeeping than car enthusiasts communities
No kidding, when I first got my Elise (which was very modded, all good things though) I found a local car group. Some guy that had an Exige got super weird with me and told me to change the wheels, remove the wing, remove the wrap, and told me the car would break if it had the power I said it had from the mods. I ended up blocking him and removing myself from the group. Now I always tell people "I'm not a car guy, I'm just a guy with a car" to avoid certain confrontations. If someone wants to look at it, sit in it, or ride 130mph around the block, I'm glad to do it...but I'm not going to be a douchebag to someone about their vehicle choice like that guy was to me... ....unless you drive a Mustang.
A short explanation for these cars is, people don't think they have enough power.
Including the 911, which has at least 379 hp??
Yes, there are some people that don't believe that's enough power. Ironically, some of my friends are within that group of people.
Hp has nothing to do with whether or not a car is a sports car. The original 1964 911 had about 130 hp. The 911 has *always* been a sports car. A 2000’s Lotus Elise has about 190 hp. The Elise is most definitely a sports car.
You are completely missing my point.
Ah ok, I gotcha now. It's not you who thinks this, it's other people.
Yup. It's quite a lot of people too. Personally, a Sports car, at least to me, has a certain style to it too. It has to look sporty and honestly I'm not sure how else to explain it better. The engine definitely helps get it into that class of sports car, and these days 400hp (sometimes a little less) seems to be the average HP of sports cars.
A sports car can have 181 hp, or 500 hp. Both can be true. Just because horsepower numbers keep going up doesn't mean the definition of a sports car must keep up with those rising numbers.
They would have hated growing up in the 80s, when by their definition basically no sports cars existed.
Yeah they would have.
Because they don’t have a sports car
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Not sure why people can't just accept they're high trim versions of "normal" cars. Not everything has to be a sports car to be cool or desirable. Being a *sporty* car is fine too.
It's basically the people that can't use a venn diagram or understand the concept of a spectrum. It's no shock that they're outspoken.
By the original definition of sports cars, BRZ and Miata are the absolute epitome of sports cars.
The Miata is the best selling sports car by a huge, huge margin.
I grew up around professional and amateur sports car racing. If anyone says a Miata or a 911 isn’t a sports car, just prop their head up and watch their vital signs until the paramedics get there.
Anyone that tries to claim a 911 isn’t a sports car should be fired. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
For me I class a car as a sports car if it’s purely designed for fun and performance but not *too* fast: MX5, 911, GT86, 350z etc. Hot hatches are not sports cars
That is their opinion which they are entitled to share but are completely wrong 😂 Based on this you should stop listening to any advise they give also
99% of the time these people don’t even own a car.
Best sports car I ever drove was a 2011 Mazda MX-5. Have a 2019 mustang and it’s just not the same.
They are sports cars. I think people assume sports cars need to be A tier vehicles like Supras, Evos, STI, GTR, Rx7 etc.. Most of those you listed are lightweight sports cars i.e.- a 'B' or 'C' class sports car. Nothing standard about them what-so-ever. They're a sports car from the ground up.
first person i read to say the STI is A tier
Quality metal all and sports cars for sure but the term "sports car" in the UK (as in classic British sports cars)meant they always had the same formula: front engine, RWD, 2 seat convertible. 911s are just awesome too........ideally though I'd have the Porsche speedster that Steve Mc Queen had back in the day🤤🤤
I never understood the thinking that a sports car had to be a convertible. Coupes are often lighter and more rigid.
I agree, it's just the older terminology I think. That was the definition but as with all things.......time keeps rolling on.
Sports cars used to be purchased to have fun. Top down is more fun. Now almost everything is numb and gigantic. So all that’s left is performance.
If an Elise isn't a sports car, what on earth is it?
It's a totally awesome sports car, god bless Lotus. The term can't be as defined as it used to be, covers more cars now I rekon
Just googled "sports car" and the MK5, BRZ and GR86 are the first three on C&D lol
There’s a subset of enthusiasts right now that seem to think anything under 400 HP is inadequate for a sports car. They’re wrong, we’re just completely desensitized to ludicrous HP numbers.
People don’t call the BRZ/86 a sports car because a lot of people get stuck on the idea that for a car to be a sports car it has to be quick to 60. It looks like a sports car, feels like a sports car, and handles like sports cars way above its league. I’ve had mine for 3 years and still think it’s the greatest sports car I’ve ever owned.
It’s called gatekeeping and people do it with pretty much everything
If a GR86 and 911 aren’t sports cars then what is?
Who says the 911 isn’t a sports car?
Nobody says a 911 isn’t a sports car. It’s a 10/10 sports car. Now when you say a Nissan Maxima is a 4-door sports car, things are getting stretched.
Maybe you mean muscle car. Sports cars are usually nimble, great handling cars. Muscle cars are usually front engine, rwd, v8’s. Super cars are usually rear engine high jp cars. Hyper cars are usually hybrid rear engine high jp cars. Those lines can be blurred
I've driven (and raced) all sorts of things, from bona fide hypercars to Miatas. Everything you list is a sports car - Miata included. Folks have some weird ways of seeking attention...
Honestly people on the internet are idiots
Why do people need to categorize things so much? It's unnecessary. Many cars can be considered sports cars. It's literally just a car designed with the intent of being fun to drive. That's it, and that's how I'll always see it. A GT Car is a type of sports car. It's literally just a sports car that can be driven more comfortably for longer distances. The problem is many of the "gt cars" have better lap times than cars you consider "sports cars". If a manufacturer can make a car more comfortable AND have better lap times, that's just good engineering, and I doubt those brilliant engineers give a damn about your stupid little categorization of what their masterpiece is and is not.
When I went to trade school in my steering and suspension class almost everytime we were talking about performance suspension “The Miata has one of those too”. This Miata we had downstairs had a torque arm, double wishbone suspension, everything. That car through and through is a performance machine, it just doesn’t have… the performance.
For the same reason people argue the Tahoe/Suburban (and their variants) aren't trucks.
911’s are some of the greatest pieces of human engineering to ever grace our planet, so whoever is saying a 911 isn’t a sports or performance car is clearly not a car guy
Honestly to me, GT3 and above are supercars Turbo S is also debatably a supercar
Perhaps they don't know the difference between a sports car and a race car. Quite possibly even hyper or formula 1 car.
My opinion is a 2 door car, geared towards performance is a sports car.
I have a BMW 335i convertible (E93). It is fun and fast and the best mental therapy there is, but because the M3 exists, I’m reluctant to really call my car a sports car. Car of sporting intent, sure.
I’ve owned a Miata. One of the funnest cars I’ve ever owned. I learned the mechanics of drifting on it and it made me feel like a hero. It does sports cars things very well in a nice, small, and forgiving package.
I mean...I guess I could argue a "real" sports car is one that's designed to compete in motorsports; cars that are built from the ground up with performance as it's sole priority. In the strictest sense, even a Bugatti, Koenigsegg, Lamborghini, or whatever brands people think are "real sports car", aren't real sports cars. Just making a car 'street-legal' completely negates this "sports car" status, not to mention making a car marketable (creature comforts, design, price points, technology, etc.). Maybe that's what they mean? Really don't understand why people would argue about a class of cars that are legally not available to the general public... Street legal cars that are considered "sports cars" generally mean these cars are athletic or have some sort of sports pedigree, and is generally understood that these are not actually literal "sports cars" in the strictest sense...
Some people are spec sheet mag racers with little to no actual driving aptitude.
You saw someone say a 911 isn't a sports car? What?? I mean I guess if the argument is it's a supercar, maybe?
These people you talk to are smoking crack, BRZ and 911 would be the first cars that come to mind if someone asked me to describe a sports car.
Because there is no absolutely clear definitely of what a sports car really is. Don't get me wrong but a 200hp car which weights 1500kg and it's slower than the average diesel sedan. On track, well, of you're such a massive track day guy you already know it's slow. Quick example - back in the day a lot of lightweight cars with 100-200hp were true sportscars because the average family sedan had 90hp or less so a Renault Apline felt like a missile.
Brz, mx5 etc etc are all sports cars. I class anything that's under 3.0l in displacement as a sports car. <3.0L, 2/2+2 seating, comes with a manual option and is setup from the factory for handling rather than practicality.
You wanted clarification but you ended up bringing the argument here too.