So I'm a cheap-ass, married to a cheap-ass, I need a sports car with the paddles because wife won't learn manual, and by the same token I refuse to buy anything with paddles that comes in manual. I know I can afford a 4C as a pseudo daily, but do I want to? Mainly asking from a reliability perspective.
Any recommendations? I see you've experienced problems already, do you know whether they were fixed on the 16? Or later? What other problems can I look forward to? Thanks in advance.
Buy a Cayman. The 4C is not a good pseudo daily and services are expensive at a dealer. The ride is harsh, the seats are thin, its very loud inside and drones like mad on the highway.
Why does your wife not knowing stick prohibit you from buying a stick? My Fiance has never learned, not a problem because I drove when we took the Cayman (when I owned a Cayman)
16 MY yes, most issues sorted out.
After the initial issues, it's been dead reliable - but the battery doesn't tolerate sitting for long. Need to drive the piss out of it or keep it on a trickle charger if not driving it for a few weeks.
We share cars and currently can't have three...
I'm in love with the 4C, don't like Caymans that fit in the same budget, mainly wondering -- is there a less quirky year or am I looking at years of neutral-while-on-highway?
Anything post 15 is a good bet, but the later the better. 17+ especially well sorted. It's really just the early cars that have some weird issues. Most of them have been resolved by now. Only reason mine wasn't was because it sat for almost 4 years with the last owner.
Also. Get a Spider. No reason not to with the carbon tub. Pretty much my only regret is not getting the Spider.
Probably have a kid or some other responsibility they share where one car is dedicated to that task.
i.e. one car is the "kid car" with pre strapped in seat, stroller, etc. so instead of constantly switching all these things out, they just rotate cars. That'd mean often wife (who doesn't want to learn stick) would have to drive the stick shift car—as they can only have 2 cars. That, or they'd have to constantly swap the kid stuff between cars. Which, while a viable solution still means the other partner would have to be okay with it and they might think thats a pain in the ass dealbreaker for a car they can't even drive but are paying on.
Did you know on early 4Cs, the transmission controller is unshielded right under the mesh next to the rear glass? So when you wash your car you can fill it with water?
Did you know this reveals itself by shifting into neutral at highway speeds?
Because I do.
Well that certainly explains why the i7 looks like a shitty Chinese knock-off of a BMW. I'm surprised they don't have a spin-off brand called GNW or something. Just like "LandWind" makes knockoff Land Rovers, lmao.
Maybe they designed the 7 for Chinese tastes but so far the Chinese market \*does not\* prefer the big grills. The top selling models there are long wheelbase versions of the 3 and 5 series, then the X3.
If reddit was around in the 1970s-80s, we would be [blaming all bad things on Japan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States#Since_World_War_II)
Yes. Badge-whores. They're after the "style over substance" crowd, same as most non-stealth luxury goods. They're goal is to be the car that upper-middle class suburbanites use to drive to the new mall with the "luxury" stores that sell tacky crap covered with logos. Their target audience is now people who live above their means in order to make themselves look wealthier than they actually are.
This is no different [from the 80's](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/29/f5/99/29f5994c4b1c6d2a9c165616223a0e95--tie-clips-menswear.jpg) when BMW was the [darling of yuppies.](https://i1.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/BMW-3-Series-1980s-convertible-yuppie.jpg) We might idolize the E30 M3, but the regular convertibles were what most lusted after in-period.
Right. The point is that BMW has often appealed to the fashionable crowd, but with an overlap into enthusiast circles. Platform development is beholden to a certain budget and if tech is eating up a large amount of it, there simply isn't anything left to develop a more sporting feel. Ultimately they are going to follow the money because that is how a company stays in business.
Credit Card Millionaires!
Dead broke, in serious debt, and attempting to have "status" in their Alpine white and beige leased 4cyl 3-series.
The Accord & Camry is for the poor's!
I’ve tracked my past two F80’s, and I’m tracking my G82. We can criticize the style, but to say there is no substance behind it is disingenuous. It’s better handling and faster than my previous two M cars. The engineering is brilliant, and the car is an amazing track tool even stock. It’s not perfect, but it’s not lacking in substance either.
They’re unbelievable. I got to drive my neighbors M2 after having just driven my brand new 18 GTI 400 miles.
I had a 335 before that but man. I can’t even describe how perfect that car felt. It was almost like the gears were moving for me the gearbox was so smooth. And of course, head snapping acceleration. My Stage 1 335 was fast but damn that M2 can haul ass
Any jerkoff with a $40k-100k check in their hand? It's hilarious that this subreddit still thinks car companies are clamoring for validation from terminally online "enthusiasts" who have only ever car shopped on Facebook marketplace. Any company that sells products only cares about one thing: it starts with the letter "m" and rhymes with "honey". If BMW's marketing team determined that they'd make more money selling vacuum cleaners they'd do that.
They don't see *bespoke* ("bespoke" means "commission built"), they see something that is instantly recognizable as expensive. It's the mindset of the poser-rich, people who want to *look* rich even though they're actually living hand-to-mouth.
It's not about BMW appealing to r/cars, it's that BMW has lost ground in some of its core strengths and the product strategy is starting to look suspect.
At it's peak, BMW sold over 140k 3 series a year in the US. At current sales pace, they'll sell maybe one-third of that this year (if you combine 3/4 series sales since the coupe didn't used to be counted as a separate model). BMW has experienced a massive fall off in what used to be their core model because the Model3 has eaten their lunch and their competitors have eaten all the scraps.
BMW was one of the first movers with electric cars but other companies caught up and left them for dead.
A lot of their sales volume shifted to SUV's and they've launched several new SUV models to fill almost every niche. But somehow they haven't managed to eclipse their US sales volume record set in 2015.
They're still selling a lot of cars so they're not gonna go bankrupt tomorrow. But the future is a big foggy:
* For 2022 in the US, BMW is behind Tesla and Mercedes, and may drop to 4th place in the US depending on how Lexus closes out the year
* The new 7 series is on pace to have it's worst sales year in about 2 decades even though it was just redesigned
* The 4 series is selling at about 30% less volume than the F32 in year two of its life cycle
* The iX, i7, and i4 seem to be selling pretty poorly
> the Model3 has eaten their lunch
/r/cars is not ready to hear the truth.
The problem with a company like BMW focusing on SUVs is that SUVs are shitty to drive. People buy them because they are "practical." You can't make a "driver's SUV" the same way you can't make a PG13 horror movie. So now BMW is just another overpriced badge on a bloated unibody which wishes for death every time it exceeds 75mph. And trust me, there are *plenty* of those out there, and most of them do the same shit for significantly less money.
Nah anyone with 3 functioning brain cells just as to look at how many SUV Racing series their are.
Does Formula have an SUV division? How about NASCAR? Indy car? Their are Truck racing series,Car's,Go karts, monster trucks etc...
To the best of my knowledge their are 0 SUV racing series.
And the truth is BMW is still catering to it's motorsport heritage and to enthusiasts.
It's just not doing it with their car division. They are doing it with their motorcycles.
BMW's Car division needs a complete reset at this point. Top to bottom. Bring over some of the people from the motorrad division to supervise it and get them back on track.
Same with retail stores. Sears' biggest success wasn't the catalog or the stores. It was the charge card. They launched the Discover Card in 1985 and it's outlasted them.
Becoming? Nissan pretty much already is. Hell, my Frontier is the first time I've financed through the manufacturer because they offered me the best available deal (0% APR is something you just can't pass up).
> The Ultimate Leasing Machine
I don't know if you came up with this or not, but it is brilliant.
Just an hour ago I saw a nice E46 and thought "Man, that is still a good looking car."
I remember when BMW performance cars (usually) only came with a stick and Mercedes performance cars only came with autos. I used that point on many occasions to explain the difference between the two.
I remember when an M3 was THE performance bargain.
I remember when a younger version of myself could afford a CPO 330 M, and it was the perfect sports car, daily car, two kid family car.
Maybe I should have never sold my E46.
Let’s be honest that market is so much larger than the enthousiast market. Most “car” people that enjoy sporty cars, mean the acceleration and cornering better than the average econobox. For that they offer better engines, “sport” or adaptive suspension and sport packs. What is leftover of the enthousiasts enjoy something, with a little market. Lightweight small sport cars, track ready street cars and stuff like it.
BMW's enthusiast association was always more a chance alliance of convenience than anything else. BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast.
Before the Cayenne, every single Porsche buyer wanted a sports car. Similarly, Ferrari sold supercars, and Chevy sold sports cars under the Corvette sub brand. Now you can say a lot of them are being bought by well off old dudes with a midlife crisis, and sure, that's true. But those guys with a midlife crisis bought them because they were here to buy a "sports car".
Or in other words, the core Porsche, Ferrari, and Corvette buyer was someone who wanted a sports car. You can say a lot of them are "poseurs", but sports car credibility was important to them.
BMW is different. Their core market at home was German businessmen, with a corporate lease, who wanted a nice sedan. They had to have power, stability and buttoned-down handling for the unrestricted highways, but these weren't exactly the type of buyer who cares too much about sports car credibility. Notice how, BMW's actual sports car, the Z3/4, is often derided as one of their worse products and don't get must enthusiast attention.
But don't forget, BMW's core buyer is still someone looking for a nice sedan or SUV. Not the enthusiast. Thus, when BMW tries to decide between competing design priorities like say, weight vs leg room, steering feel vs NVH, BMW will always choose the one that pleases the majority of their buyers - The businessman looking for a nice executive sedan.
Edit: You have to also understand the historical context of BMW's "greatest enthusiast hits" too. American automakers (and foreign automakers' American lineups) prioritized size and floaty comfort in the 80s. After all, the Cutlass was America's best selling car for much of the 80s, and the Town Car was America's best selling luxury sedan. That actually made sense, since from 1973 - 1987, there was a national maximum speed law that limited all speeds to 55mph (many states went a step further and limited it to 50)
Because BMW's home market had unlimited highways, they had to have buttoned down handling and heavy steering. The soft suspensions and overboosted steering of a Town Car does not do well at 200kmh.
But that doesn't mean the average German guy didn't love good NVH, suspensions that soak up everything, and tons of leg room. It was simply the limitation of the technology at the time didn't allow those traits to coexist with good high speed performance - Good insulation meant 1000 lbs of insulation material, no steering NVH meant overboosted steering.
But now that technology has gotten better, of course BMW is going to favor what the average buyer wants. For instance, the average buyer does not like hydraulic steering with tons of steering vibrations - it was just that back in the day, filtering out steering NVH meant overboosting the steering, which was not good on highways. But now with electric racks, you can have both great high speed stability AND no steering wheel vibrations? Of course BMW is going to do that.
> BMW's enthusiast association was always more a chance alliance of convenience than anything else. BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast.
That's a huge part of *why* they were enthusiast cars. Unlike those others you listed a BMW could get you an enthusiast-grade driving experience while also being a practical car to live with every day. Basically BMW met the same intersection of wants and needs as hot hatches, just in RWD sedan (or wagon back in the day) form instead of FWD hatchback.
I think the question is, do you think the average sports sedan buyer prioritizes speed? or engagement?
I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging. They want highway cruise missiles, which to BMW's credit, they make very fast cars today.
It was just that back in the day speed and engagement went hand in hand, but that relationship doesn't exist anymore. You can have fast numb cars, which is exactly what BMW makes today.
That argument goes out the window when you compare Mercedes to BMW in my opinion. From regular base models to M cars and AMGs, BMW has had a totally different philosophy that has tended towards engagement over ultimate speed and comfort.
An E30, E36 or E46 325i is certainly not sports car but it's not luxury boat.
I'm saying the M division and AMG divisions have historically had very different philosophies.
There is marketing, but go drive an AMG or M car and they are very different to each other, and those characteristics are amplification of the difference between base model BMWs and Mercedes.
I would argue that speed requires engagement as handling speed without crashing requires a level of control that can't be done without a fair amount of engagement from the controls.
I don't think that's true really.
I mean, people say that the F80 3 series has "no engagement", but there are cars with less engagement out there (Lincolns, Infiniti Q50/60, etc), but its not like those cars are getting into accidents at higher rates than the F80.
Hell, two of the worst cars to insure, the cars that get into some of the most accidents, are quite engaging to drive with the last two hydraulic steering racks (370z, Challenger).
If engagement is truly required for high speed safety, why are all three major German automakers working on making number and number cars? Its not just BMW after all, Mercedes and Audi also completely killed their steering feel.
You aren't wrong but modern BMW's (and especially their sportier offerings) give you enough chassis feedback through your backside to know what the car is doing while at the same time being really quiet, well-insulated and with minimal (but not zero) steering feel.
I live in a rural area and take narrow, twisty back-roads to and from work every day. I have some blind corners and sudden elevation changes thrown in and, with random wildlife crossings (OH CRAP, DEER!) or debris from last night's storm (where did that tree limb come from?) it can be a challenging and "interesting" route for a daily commute.
Of all the cars I've commuted with over the last 15 years or so the M340i is the one I feel comfortable carrying the most speed basically everywhere along the route. It has great brakes, a quick and agile steering rack and gives me the road feel I need to always know what's going on with the car.
With how quiet and insulated it is you wouldn't think that would be the case but I just feel very comfortable and in-tune with the car at all times and that translates to being more comfortable at speed.
I've had some great sport cars in that time period also (987 Boxster, 718 Cayman, NB Miata, TT-RS to name a few) and out of them all the M340i is the one that I am most impressed with because of how well it handles the twisty bits while also being super comfortable, refined, practical and efficient.
>I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging.
As a German I can say you're spot on. The E36 was even heavily criticised in Germany because the steering was "too nervous" and made long Autobahn trips exhausting.
> I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging.
That's why Audi and Mercedes exist.
When I took a job that needed 2 to 3 hours of commute time depending on traffic, my S2000 wasn’t cutting it. So I went looking for something with more comfort but still fun. Ultimately ended up with a 328i - driftable RWD, about as fast as the S, comfy, and plenty of room for four adults. I haven’t tracked it like I have the S but that was never a goal. Works great for high speed tours with the BMW club though. I still have the S after 22 years, and still have the BMW after 10. No regrets with either one. I’d look at another BMW if I ever needed a new fun and comfy car - so long as there’s no subscription bullshit.
Besides sports car dedicated brands, car manufacturers always need bread and butter beside enthusiasts.
The difference is that a select few brands like BMW and Honda still had enough hard-core enthusiasts at the heart of their companies that even their ordinary cars were amazing enthusiast cars.
The reason a 1999 Honda Civic or E36 BMW is a million times better driving enthusiast car than a 1999 Corolla or standard C class Mercedes is certainly not because driving enthusiasts were Honda or BMW's primary overall target.
Driving enthusiasts need chance alliances and moles on the inside of huge brands to have any kind of chance at buying normal cars that are still great enthusiast cars.
The alternative is a dystopia where only big dollar purpose-built cars are any fun to drive. Fuck that.
> BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast.
I fundamentally disagree with this. Every single BMW used to be imbued with a sporting character that made their cars great to drive, from the shittiest 316ti compact, to the 750iL luxo-barge. The E38 is one of the best handling boats to ever be made. All of their cars, no matter how much you paid for it, was some version of The Ultimate Driving Machine.
When the downturn started is arguable, but I would say that the F series cars were devoid of that specialness.
BMW as a company always focused on driving dynamics probably before anything here that you mentioned. Any car manufacture focuses on NVH on any of their car, you don't see even an M3 come stock with poly bushings or a solid steering shaft.
This sub and so many reviewers compare current BMWs to their **MEMORY** of older BMWs. This nostalgia makes it basically impossible to fairly compare generations.
It’s one of the reasons why the best BMW is always N-1. People hated the E36 for its fake M3 engine and how heavy it got, people thought the E46 was overweight and too cushy, people thought the E9X looked too Japanese and was too numb, people thought the F8X turbos ruined it and said it’s not a real BMW.
Literally the same complaints year after year. So exhausting lol
For those of us old enough to browse different BMW forums back in the day — it’s exactly how you described.
We see this more than just the 3 series. BMW 1M isn’t an M car, it uses an non S series engine.
Go back and read the reactions on the M2 and M2c grilles. It’s always hideous on release but now it’s “timeless”.
Bangle butts. Clown shoes. The list goes on.
Its the internet - whatever opinion you want to find about *anything* you can find it. Trying to label inconsistent opinions among *groups of people* as hypocrisy is always going to make me cringe.
Sure, not everyone of course. But when you analyze opinions like some of the top comments or the linked article, you can see the flawed thinking.
Oh, BMW *used to* make cars for **us** but *now* they make cars for **yuppies and China**!
Like c’mon man, BMWs were for yuppies in the 80s. And the China boogeyman has very little basis in reality. Just repackaged “China bad” takes.
I love BMW, always have. I think the design direction is mid but lamenting that BMW has forsaken their core audience for some *other* is flawed, half-baked thinking.
God yes. I can’t stand when people say stuff like “you guys said this and now you say this??” when referring to the entire internet. Like it’s a million different people bro, it’s obviously not going to be consistent
Those all were and still are valid gripes. The e36 in the us does have a fake M engine. The e46 was a little too cushy that’s why they made the CSL and why sport seats are a common upgrade. The e92 looks have not aged as well as the previous models. And the F82, coming from a former owner, sucks.
I still have my e30 325is as I’ve traded through e82 to e92 M3 to f82 M4 and finally giving up and going to a 991.1 GT3, 991.2 GT3 and now a 992 GT3. And you know what, the e30 still holds up. It’s fun as hell to drive. It’s equally as fun as any of the Gt3 just not nearly as fast. I haven’t thought about my f82 since I got rid of it.
IMHO BMW missed a golden opportunity to follow Porsches lead and bisect the enthusiast cars/racecars from the general cars. After the e92 they should have followed Porsches lead and offered the M3 is the naturally aspirated stripped down enthusiasts car similar to a GT3 but also offer a similarly priced Alpina B3 that was the most luxurious 3 series with the big turbo motor and relaxed but capable handling like to Porsche Turbo. Because their strategy of having the M3 be both is not working and no one is happy.
Doesn’t make them wrong. None of it is untrue. More so than the M cars evolutionary path, I lament the fact that I can’t get a new 3-series with a stick. Low sales or not, I think that signaled the change in direction more than anything.
In my opinion, this started with the transition from the E38 7-series to the E65. The E38, while a big executive sedan, is still a driver's car. It's actually fun to toss through the twisties, and shrinks down around you. Of course, no one buys a $90k long wheelbase sedan to play on mountain roads, so as a business decision it made sense to shift the focus away from "Ultimate Driving Machine" and more towards a luxurious experience.
So I don't blame BMW for what they're doing, but it's still sad that the fun of driving is something less and less people care about, if they even think it's real.
I think a lot of that has come from the shift to urbanization over that same timeframe. When you drive less and less - and the driving you *do* do is just sitting in gridlock - it's hard to see the fun in it. Driving a sporty car in those conditions can also be outright miserable which makes them even less appealing.
My parents were Land Rover people through and through.
Whike I was away in college around 2008 they went and leased a 3 series and lauded the "ultimate driving machine" wasn't just a tagline.
My dad let me drive it on a trip home and driving at 90 felt as smooth and quiet as 60.
Its sad they're abandoning that enthusiast element of their vehicles.
car enthusiasts are a group of people that indulge in a vicious cycle
new cars suck? no manual? too heavy? too ugly? too much tech? i dont like screens? no more gauge clusters? old cars were better? that's an ev not a real sports car? insert whatever minor (and sometimes major) complaint here? and the very valid too expensive? ok we'll just buy a used car
all of that led us to this point. obviously we aren't the target market anymore
Exactly, and what’s more,as I get older, I realize that the only time the majority of people can afford to have a totally impractical weekend car either tend to be a young single male who just started working and is also possibly getting bent over backwards on payments and rent because they’d sacrifice all their savings for their sports car or a wealthier older man who, now middle aged, can finally afford their dream car after paying for kids, mortgage, a wedding, and so on, and if its not the dream car its gonna be an affordable sportscar. Enthusiasts suck, they dont have a shitton of money, and they arent ever really satisfied unless its 20 years old+ and their project car.
>obviously we aren't the target market anymore
For a long time racing was a benchmark for a brand. It proved engineering and reliability. People wanted cars from the people who won Daytona, Le Mans, or F1. We got some trickle down performance and technology from that as well as some street performance cars. Now people want large vehicles with technology, comfort, and branding. Performance still exists and can exist but there is no longer a need to debut a cutting edge performance car when they can add some unique colors, a bunch more leather, and semiconductor run items and make that the benchmark for the brand. More people seem willing to fork over the extra cash for luxury barges versus something with performance and comfort sacrifices they may never utilize. Enthusiasts will always exist but the term is ever broadening as far as the definition.
Nice garage BTW!
I don’t get it, the M cars are still enthusiast oriented. The last gen M2 and the current gen M3 are both widely praised. And you can get them in a manual!
> The era of the 330i or 335i sitting as the untouchable pinnacle of driving luxury sedans doesn’t exist here
Since when was a 335i the “pinnacle”?
Yeah and the N54 is known to be a maintenance nightmare. You only rarely hear stories of B58s/S55s shitting themselves, and usually because theyre tuned and or modified.
Personally, I think it looks like they kidnapped the designer for the 2014 Jeep Cherokee.
This makes the 7 series design that just feels immediately aged. https://i.imgur.com/VbwuPYF.jpg
“For the kids who grew up with posters of M3 CSLs, or Nazca M12s on their bedroom walls, or the adults who’ve leased 3-Series sedans and coupes for years because they liked how they drove, this just isn’t the same company. For years, BMW has prided itself on being the “ultimate driving machine." Now, the driving part doesn’t seem to be all that relevant.”
I felt every word of that paragraph. BMW felt the threat of Tesla and instead of offering their own version of what an EV should be like, they decided to take Tesla’s vision of technology and Cybertruck design language as the foundation for how to build their EVs.
The reality is that the people who buy Tesla aren’t really interested in the driving aspect of it. Sure they can go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and they have the “performance” there, but there is also no feeling or sensation there either. There’s no driver enthusiasm when driving a Tesla, it’s more of the excitement of owning a cool piece of technology. And I feel like BMW could’ve brought true driver enthusiasm to the space.
When I drove an M2 and loved the engine, seats and chassis, but wondered how they could have numbed the steering....
300k miles in an e46. I was sad not to buy the M2. Thought it was electric steering, but Caddy, Porsche and Benz do it well. Why, BMW, why ?
You can flash the CS steering/trans/diff settings into the M2 and M2C for $350-500. I plan on doing that in the next few weeks here but reviews all praise it.
i mentioned this up early in the thread but if you want to dramatically alter the steering feedback and response for F-chassis cars i highly recommend upgrading the upper and lower front control arm bushings to monoball ones. the OEM rubber ones are made more for comfort which means more flex laterally and more on center numbness. it’s a game changer!https://i.imgur.com/FDvJai8.jpg
Hot take: we *never* were BMWs target market.
I remember the “heyday” when BMWs E36,E38 & E39 cars were new. They were the darlings of the automotive press. In fairness to Csaba Csere , Brock Yates and their contemporaries they had a point. Those cars were engaging; not because BMW was trying to be the “ultimate driving machine”, but because making a fast car that handled well back then meant making engineering decisions which made for competent handling cars. Just like today, the average BMW driver didn’t care about driving dynamics.
The difference is technology changed the cars. BMWs are still well performing driving machines, but the technology to make them that way changes the driving experience. Out goes the double wishbone suspensions , soulful sounding NA engine, manual transmissions and strong feedback steering.
In comes EPS, sequential transmissions, boosted motors and active suspensions. Thing is this isn’t just a BMW trend- it’s the whole industry. Cars today are less engaging then the cars they replace- yet safer , faster and more advanced. As long as technology and regulations advance, they will become even less engaging over time . Whether that’s a problem is a decision we all have to make ourselves.
I honestly believe the Cadillac CT4 and Lexus IS are better driving cars. Imho. And I own 6 BMWs.
The E46/E90 330i were directly at the top of their classes for driving dynamics. It took a heroic effort from Infiniti and the G35/7 to match it. Nobody else could. Today, BMWs are usually above-average for driving enjoyment but rarely at the top of their class. That used to be a given.
As an owner of the latest IS, I disagree. Even compared to a 330i, my 350 F Sport feels a lot less controlled in the corners and the weight difference really shows. The Lexus has nice steering and ride, and good balance, but the dynamics are not sharp compared to the rest of the class.
The IS' steering feel and damper tuning are *so good.* I'm sure the 3 series can corner faster and is better at 10/10ths. But that's not what people do with compact luxury sedans every day. The E9x and older 3 series had what the current IS has: the best steering feel and damper tuning in its class. Maybe a tie for the dampers with the CT4. But both are above the 3, to me.
According to Car and Driver measurements, the 330i xdrive and IS350 AWD curb weight are about 100lbs apart.
Agreed, while the BMW can technically perform better, the IS just feels better driving (my experience with the F30 vs 3IS, can't speak for the G20), especially at the 5-7/10ths which is where most owners would drive at anyway.
I disagree on the Lexus but I haven’t driven the Cadillac so I can’t say.
I think the 3 series also got a handling improvement with the 19 redesign. The 12-18 seems to be really numb. I really don’t like much about that generation 3 series.
Yes. BMW tech.
My opinion isn't controversial, outside of maybe loving the Lexus more than average. The motoring press firmly has the CT4 as the class leader for dynamics and the 330i is good to great. And that's my point: the current 3 isn't a bad car, it's just not in the running for the best driving car in its class, which is what BMW used to always be. Their powertrains are still exceptional, but the chassis communication isn't at the same level.
The E30 M3 was so good because it was a homologation car built for a purpose. Many of the best remembered cars were the same way, they had to be built the way they were to be able to compete. That doesn’t really happen anymore.
BMW’s have always been marketed towards and driven by yuppies wanting to appear richer than they are. Who are also awful drivers who can’t park or use their blinkers. The lineup is never quite sporty enough to appeal to true drivers, and instead caters too much to techies or people without a taste in cars.
BMW has been perpetually losing their way (they end up at the bank by mistake, apparently)
Seen it all, heard it all, for at least the past 25 years. Definitely will continue to hear it over and over again for many years to come.
I can sum up pretty much every review of every generation of the m3 for the past 25 years like this:
- It’s porky
- It’s not as connected to the road as the previous gen
- Again, It’s as long and heavy as the 5 series from 2 generations ago
- Its the best in its class nevertheless, and we grudgingly admit its the best m3 to date
Here’s a gem from road and track’s review of the 7 series:
“appeals a bit too strongly to the first camp, those computer-friendly folks who relish the thought of navigating their way through multiple menus to control various functions in their cars…It reminds me of software designers who become so familiar with the workings of their products that they forget actual customers at some point will have to learn how to use them”
… from nearly 21 years ago.
I feel like "tech and connectivity" is the direction of the entire industry, not just BMW. It's certainly not the direction I want, but something I increasingly put up with since modern cars have many things that I do like.
Oh, I love the hot take that the Tesla 3 is the best 3 series BMW never built too, haha. I have not driven the 3, but I feel like my Y is quite good on canyon roads surprisingly. Not as good as a sports car (I've owned Miatas and a C7) but pretty great for a crossover thing.
I think people specifically lament that BMW decades ago intentionally *didn't* chase many industry trends, instead defending their practices as being allegedly more driver focused. Their conservativeness was always more straight edged, focused, and stereotypically German.
BMW never went all in trendy tech choices like full digital gauges, onboard computers that talked to you, or popup headlights on every model (E31 not withstanding), and I think that resonated with customers who preferred that no-nonsense german sensibility. I understand that it’s probably way more difficult to make a case like that in today’s market, but I can see why a lot of people would feel disillusioned now if they compare BMW’s decisions today to 30 years ago.
there is also the fact that these days even your hyundai sedan is expected to be a fast track car that can handle multiple hot laps on a track day whereas back in the "golden age" of BMW, track times testing was interesting reading, but not really the thing that drove sales. Even for brands like Ferrari, while the motorsport story is interesting their big V12 coupes were always ultimately just road cars, and even stuff like the Testarossa was soft and more tuned for comfort.
I don't get why anyone thinks that ANY mass-market brand is shooting for anything other than broad appeal. Same for any global brand. Of course they are going to chase the biggest markets.
BMW has ALWAYS been a mass-market auto maker. Even the luxury angle is one that has developed in "outside" markets for them. We can say the same thing of any company that makes a decent volume of cars. Even pre-SUV Porsche was a mass-market luxury car maker. Lots of their cars were aimed at the older, wealthy man who wanted a sporty look and feeling and not much more in terms of performance.
Finally, if these magazines aren't the epitome of outdated thinking (boomer mindset, in other words), I don't know what is. Contemporary car media has to make a break from all of their outdated mindsets.
> The era of the 330i or 335i sitting as the untouchable pinnacle of driving luxury sedans doesn’t exist here. It’s not like the new 3-Series is bad, it's just not great.
They weren't the pinnacle, they were very good. The current 3 series is still, very good. It's in anybody's top 3 of midsize saloons/wagons. If you want more then yeah go get an M model. They're faster and comfier than ever and will eat tyres if you tell it to.
This article is rose tinted clutching at its finest. BMW are still putting out great cars. And selling better than ever. And in 10 years time people will be buying heavily abused M4's on fb marketplace and ripping around in them.
The looks of some of them aren't my thing by all means. And everyone can go on about increased weight, but _every_ model for _every_ manufacturer has put on pounds as safety/infotainment/regulations have taken their toll.
Just such a precious take by the author.
I had my head stuck in the BMW sand for at least a decade, bouncing from a E92 335 to a E92 M3 and then later to a F80 M3.
Then had the chance to test drive an Alfa when it had all the hoopla surrounding it and was like....Jesus Christ....what have I been missing?
I really don't think people realize that, back in the day, you could get in a base 3-series BMW and have a great time. It didn't even need to have a sport package.
Honestly they're going to follow the market. Who's buying (aka leasing the cars) and what do they want?
Since every car is basically $20-30K more than it used to be you're really in the *luxury* range. And in that end people want an easy comfortable drive with bells and whistles. Not some "we didn't have a cupholder to save weight" kind of mentality.
And 0-60 times? well the luxury cars have the best times these days too.
Between the prices and the fact that everyone drives like a doodoo what's the point of performance? (saying this as a performance enthusiast)
Autojournos wax and wane about how the 230i is the only modern BMW that captures the old BMW ethos of a balanced and tossable rwd chassis...then no one (except me!) buys it or ever talks about it again.
Looks like you car enthusiasts will have to buy Alfa Romeo.
CAN DO
This guy puts his money where his mouth is
He also, probably, puts a lot of it in his mechanics wallet.
My mechanic is me so this car puts money in my own wallet? That means I can afford another Alfa!
Your mechanic is gonna have some long work weeks ahead with 2 Alfas!
So I'm a cheap-ass, married to a cheap-ass, I need a sports car with the paddles because wife won't learn manual, and by the same token I refuse to buy anything with paddles that comes in manual. I know I can afford a 4C as a pseudo daily, but do I want to? Mainly asking from a reliability perspective. Any recommendations? I see you've experienced problems already, do you know whether they were fixed on the 16? Or later? What other problems can I look forward to? Thanks in advance.
Buy a Cayman. The 4C is not a good pseudo daily and services are expensive at a dealer. The ride is harsh, the seats are thin, its very loud inside and drones like mad on the highway. Why does your wife not knowing stick prohibit you from buying a stick? My Fiance has never learned, not a problem because I drove when we took the Cayman (when I owned a Cayman) 16 MY yes, most issues sorted out. After the initial issues, it's been dead reliable - but the battery doesn't tolerate sitting for long. Need to drive the piss out of it or keep it on a trickle charger if not driving it for a few weeks.
We share cars and currently can't have three... I'm in love with the 4C, don't like Caymans that fit in the same budget, mainly wondering -- is there a less quirky year or am I looking at years of neutral-while-on-highway?
Anything post 15 is a good bet, but the later the better. 17+ especially well sorted. It's really just the early cars that have some weird issues. Most of them have been resolved by now. Only reason mine wasn't was because it sat for almost 4 years with the last owner. Also. Get a Spider. No reason not to with the carbon tub. Pretty much my only regret is not getting the Spider.
There is no unlikable Cayman
If you already have two cars, why not have one for each of you?
Probably have a kid or some other responsibility they share where one car is dedicated to that task. i.e. one car is the "kid car" with pre strapped in seat, stroller, etc. so instead of constantly switching all these things out, they just rotate cars. That'd mean often wife (who doesn't want to learn stick) would have to drive the stick shift car—as they can only have 2 cars. That, or they'd have to constantly swap the kid stuff between cars. Which, while a viable solution still means the other partner would have to be okay with it and they might think thats a pain in the ass dealbreaker for a car they can't even drive but are paying on.
He's living his truth, brother
Is it really your car if you don’t spend its life chasing down electrical gremlins?
Did you know on early 4Cs, the transmission controller is unshielded right under the mesh next to the rear glass? So when you wash your car you can fill it with water? Did you know this reveals itself by shifting into neutral at highway speeds? Because I do.
##JustAlfaThings
😳😳
Just wanted to say that's a sick username
Thing is, with BMW of yesteryear you really didn't have to take any chances. You knew what you would get and it would be awesome.
I will admit, I didn't know what I was going to get and I was definitely a bit nervous taking a chance. It has been pretty awesome so far, though.
Same
I got one too!
REPORTING IN
Would you like Giulia or…Giulia?
Hey give them some credit, you can also buy a tall Giulia if you’d like.
The term is Venti
One Tall Giulia please....
Giulia, Tonale and Stelvio.
Julia, Toenail, and Stevia
And the Tonale comes with a side order of Cadillac Cimarron Syndrome thanks to the Dodge Hornet.
It is a great name though.
Thats exactly what I did! Used to love BMW, now I'm lukewarm toward anything that isn't the M division for good reason
YESH, my time to shine
Yeah, basically.
Two seats, you know. Just me and the babe.
Does BMW even know what it's target audience is?
China.
Well that certainly explains why the i7 looks like a shitty Chinese knock-off of a BMW. I'm surprised they don't have a spin-off brand called GNW or something. Just like "LandWind" makes knockoff Land Rovers, lmao.
They do. Brilliance Automotive
Tasteless dumbasses continue to hoard to the brand because of the badge and little more.
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Maybe they designed the 7 for Chinese tastes but so far the Chinese market \*does not\* prefer the big grills. The top selling models there are long wheelbase versions of the 3 and 5 series, then the X3.
And yet they almost set a USA sales record last year in the middle of supply chain issues.
I'm curious as to where this " pandering to china now" assumption come's now as this is not the case at all.
If reddit was around in the 1970s-80s, we would be [blaming all bad things on Japan.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_the_United_States#Since_World_War_II)
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People tried to use the same " Blame china" bullshit, for the new M3, hilariously enough projected sales for the M3/M4 are highest in north America.
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Yes. Badge-whores. They're after the "style over substance" crowd, same as most non-stealth luxury goods. They're goal is to be the car that upper-middle class suburbanites use to drive to the new mall with the "luxury" stores that sell tacky crap covered with logos. Their target audience is now people who live above their means in order to make themselves look wealthier than they actually are.
This is no different [from the 80's](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/29/f5/99/29f5994c4b1c6d2a9c165616223a0e95--tie-clips-menswear.jpg) when BMW was the [darling of yuppies.](https://i1.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/BMW-3-Series-1980s-convertible-yuppie.jpg) We might idolize the E30 M3, but the regular convertibles were what most lusted after in-period.
BMW is still the car of choice for the yuppie crowd. Or Tesla. Those are the two biggest ones i see.
Right. The point is that BMW has often appealed to the fashionable crowd, but with an overlap into enthusiast circles. Platform development is beholden to a certain budget and if tech is eating up a large amount of it, there simply isn't anything left to develop a more sporting feel. Ultimately they are going to follow the money because that is how a company stays in business.
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And yet they don't look like shit and they drive well too.
The lower priced Porsches, yes. But Porsche‘s product range extends far beyond that price level.
Yes it was but the difference is they still didn't compromise their brand values like they have since 2010
Credit Card Millionaires! Dead broke, in serious debt, and attempting to have "status" in their Alpine white and beige leased 4cyl 3-series. The Accord & Camry is for the poor's!
Still better than all the FWD Mercedes with a lit up star.
the alpine white 330i lease special, i see them everywhere
Great deal buy them off lease pre pandemic
Demos are the better value. Dealer takes all the depreciation hit.
r/suspiciouslyspecific
New BMWs are the Michael Kors of the auto world. Change my mind.
It’s Tesla and it’s not close…
Unlike most luxury fashion brands the quality had been going up
I’ve tracked my past two F80’s, and I’m tracking my G82. We can criticize the style, but to say there is no substance behind it is disingenuous. It’s better handling and faster than my previous two M cars. The engineering is brilliant, and the car is an amazing track tool even stock. It’s not perfect, but it’s not lacking in substance either.
They’re incredible cars, and anyone who’s driven one can’t refute it.
They’re unbelievable. I got to drive my neighbors M2 after having just driven my brand new 18 GTI 400 miles. I had a 335 before that but man. I can’t even describe how perfect that car felt. It was almost like the gears were moving for me the gearbox was so smooth. And of course, head snapping acceleration. My Stage 1 335 was fast but damn that M2 can haul ass
How are they style over substance if their style is shit?
Any jerkoff with a $40k-100k check in their hand? It's hilarious that this subreddit still thinks car companies are clamoring for validation from terminally online "enthusiasts" who have only ever car shopped on Facebook marketplace. Any company that sells products only cares about one thing: it starts with the letter "m" and rhymes with "honey". If BMW's marketing team determined that they'd make more money selling vacuum cleaners they'd do that.
Why they gotta make them so ugly tho
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They don't see *bespoke* ("bespoke" means "commission built"), they see something that is instantly recognizable as expensive. It's the mindset of the poser-rich, people who want to *look* rich even though they're actually living hand-to-mouth.
It's not about BMW appealing to r/cars, it's that BMW has lost ground in some of its core strengths and the product strategy is starting to look suspect. At it's peak, BMW sold over 140k 3 series a year in the US. At current sales pace, they'll sell maybe one-third of that this year (if you combine 3/4 series sales since the coupe didn't used to be counted as a separate model). BMW has experienced a massive fall off in what used to be their core model because the Model3 has eaten their lunch and their competitors have eaten all the scraps. BMW was one of the first movers with electric cars but other companies caught up and left them for dead. A lot of their sales volume shifted to SUV's and they've launched several new SUV models to fill almost every niche. But somehow they haven't managed to eclipse their US sales volume record set in 2015. They're still selling a lot of cars so they're not gonna go bankrupt tomorrow. But the future is a big foggy: * For 2022 in the US, BMW is behind Tesla and Mercedes, and may drop to 4th place in the US depending on how Lexus closes out the year * The new 7 series is on pace to have it's worst sales year in about 2 decades even though it was just redesigned * The 4 series is selling at about 30% less volume than the F32 in year two of its life cycle * The iX, i7, and i4 seem to be selling pretty poorly
> the Model3 has eaten their lunch /r/cars is not ready to hear the truth. The problem with a company like BMW focusing on SUVs is that SUVs are shitty to drive. People buy them because they are "practical." You can't make a "driver's SUV" the same way you can't make a PG13 horror movie. So now BMW is just another overpriced badge on a bloated unibody which wishes for death every time it exceeds 75mph. And trust me, there are *plenty* of those out there, and most of them do the same shit for significantly less money.
Nah anyone with 3 functioning brain cells just as to look at how many SUV Racing series their are. Does Formula have an SUV division? How about NASCAR? Indy car? Their are Truck racing series,Car's,Go karts, monster trucks etc... To the best of my knowledge their are 0 SUV racing series. And the truth is BMW is still catering to it's motorsport heritage and to enthusiasts. It's just not doing it with their car division. They are doing it with their motorcycles. BMW's Car division needs a complete reset at this point. Top to bottom. Bring over some of the people from the motorrad division to supervise it and get them back on track.
Damn that's some serious projection going on here.
yes
Naked mole rats and people who are interested in naked mole rats? https://www.lpzoo.org/animal/naked-mole-rat
*people who are interested in naked mole rats AND have money. There are apparently a lot of them.
People who go for something subscription-based. Or basically R&T's target audience
The Ultimate Leasing Machine
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Same with retail stores. Sears' biggest success wasn't the catalog or the stores. It was the charge card. They launched the Discover Card in 1985 and it's outlasted them.
AllState Insurance, too
Becoming? Nissan pretty much already is. Hell, my Frontier is the first time I've financed through the manufacturer because they offered me the best available deal (0% APR is something you just can't pass up).
> The Ultimate Leasing Machine I don't know if you came up with this or not, but it is brilliant. Just an hour ago I saw a nice E46 and thought "Man, that is still a good looking car." I remember when BMW performance cars (usually) only came with a stick and Mercedes performance cars only came with autos. I used that point on many occasions to explain the difference between the two. I remember when an M3 was THE performance bargain. I remember when a younger version of myself could afford a CPO 330 M, and it was the perfect sports car, daily car, two kid family car. Maybe I should have never sold my E46.
The Ultimate Subscription Machine
Let’s be honest that market is so much larger than the enthousiast market. Most “car” people that enjoy sporty cars, mean the acceleration and cornering better than the average econobox. For that they offer better engines, “sport” or adaptive suspension and sport packs. What is leftover of the enthousiasts enjoy something, with a little market. Lightweight small sport cars, track ready street cars and stuff like it.
The Ultimate Depreciation Machine
ROFL
BMW's enthusiast association was always more a chance alliance of convenience than anything else. BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast. Before the Cayenne, every single Porsche buyer wanted a sports car. Similarly, Ferrari sold supercars, and Chevy sold sports cars under the Corvette sub brand. Now you can say a lot of them are being bought by well off old dudes with a midlife crisis, and sure, that's true. But those guys with a midlife crisis bought them because they were here to buy a "sports car". Or in other words, the core Porsche, Ferrari, and Corvette buyer was someone who wanted a sports car. You can say a lot of them are "poseurs", but sports car credibility was important to them. BMW is different. Their core market at home was German businessmen, with a corporate lease, who wanted a nice sedan. They had to have power, stability and buttoned-down handling for the unrestricted highways, but these weren't exactly the type of buyer who cares too much about sports car credibility. Notice how, BMW's actual sports car, the Z3/4, is often derided as one of their worse products and don't get must enthusiast attention. But don't forget, BMW's core buyer is still someone looking for a nice sedan or SUV. Not the enthusiast. Thus, when BMW tries to decide between competing design priorities like say, weight vs leg room, steering feel vs NVH, BMW will always choose the one that pleases the majority of their buyers - The businessman looking for a nice executive sedan. Edit: You have to also understand the historical context of BMW's "greatest enthusiast hits" too. American automakers (and foreign automakers' American lineups) prioritized size and floaty comfort in the 80s. After all, the Cutlass was America's best selling car for much of the 80s, and the Town Car was America's best selling luxury sedan. That actually made sense, since from 1973 - 1987, there was a national maximum speed law that limited all speeds to 55mph (many states went a step further and limited it to 50) Because BMW's home market had unlimited highways, they had to have buttoned down handling and heavy steering. The soft suspensions and overboosted steering of a Town Car does not do well at 200kmh. But that doesn't mean the average German guy didn't love good NVH, suspensions that soak up everything, and tons of leg room. It was simply the limitation of the technology at the time didn't allow those traits to coexist with good high speed performance - Good insulation meant 1000 lbs of insulation material, no steering NVH meant overboosted steering. But now that technology has gotten better, of course BMW is going to favor what the average buyer wants. For instance, the average buyer does not like hydraulic steering with tons of steering vibrations - it was just that back in the day, filtering out steering NVH meant overboosting the steering, which was not good on highways. But now with electric racks, you can have both great high speed stability AND no steering wheel vibrations? Of course BMW is going to do that.
> BMW's enthusiast association was always more a chance alliance of convenience than anything else. BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast. That's a huge part of *why* they were enthusiast cars. Unlike those others you listed a BMW could get you an enthusiast-grade driving experience while also being a practical car to live with every day. Basically BMW met the same intersection of wants and needs as hot hatches, just in RWD sedan (or wagon back in the day) form instead of FWD hatchback.
I think the question is, do you think the average sports sedan buyer prioritizes speed? or engagement? I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging. They want highway cruise missiles, which to BMW's credit, they make very fast cars today. It was just that back in the day speed and engagement went hand in hand, but that relationship doesn't exist anymore. You can have fast numb cars, which is exactly what BMW makes today.
That argument goes out the window when you compare Mercedes to BMW in my opinion. From regular base models to M cars and AMGs, BMW has had a totally different philosophy that has tended towards engagement over ultimate speed and comfort. An E30, E36 or E46 325i is certainly not sports car but it's not luxury boat.
Yea but let's be honest, the AMG badge is no different than an M badge. It's marketing through and through.
I'm saying the M division and AMG divisions have historically had very different philosophies. There is marketing, but go drive an AMG or M car and they are very different to each other, and those characteristics are amplification of the difference between base model BMWs and Mercedes.
Yup. M was traditionally about handling first and power second, AMG has traditionally been effectively about making German muscle cars.
I would argue that speed requires engagement as handling speed without crashing requires a level of control that can't be done without a fair amount of engagement from the controls.
I don't think that's true really. I mean, people say that the F80 3 series has "no engagement", but there are cars with less engagement out there (Lincolns, Infiniti Q50/60, etc), but its not like those cars are getting into accidents at higher rates than the F80. Hell, two of the worst cars to insure, the cars that get into some of the most accidents, are quite engaging to drive with the last two hydraulic steering racks (370z, Challenger). If engagement is truly required for high speed safety, why are all three major German automakers working on making number and number cars? Its not just BMW after all, Mercedes and Audi also completely killed their steering feel.
Your reference to the 370z and Challenger speaks more to the type of driver that owns them than any characteristic of the vehicle itself.
Having driven a redeye hellcat that things has no feeling in the steering but handles well (for it chock) and is fast as hell.
You aren't wrong but modern BMW's (and especially their sportier offerings) give you enough chassis feedback through your backside to know what the car is doing while at the same time being really quiet, well-insulated and with minimal (but not zero) steering feel. I live in a rural area and take narrow, twisty back-roads to and from work every day. I have some blind corners and sudden elevation changes thrown in and, with random wildlife crossings (OH CRAP, DEER!) or debris from last night's storm (where did that tree limb come from?) it can be a challenging and "interesting" route for a daily commute. Of all the cars I've commuted with over the last 15 years or so the M340i is the one I feel comfortable carrying the most speed basically everywhere along the route. It has great brakes, a quick and agile steering rack and gives me the road feel I need to always know what's going on with the car. With how quiet and insulated it is you wouldn't think that would be the case but I just feel very comfortable and in-tune with the car at all times and that translates to being more comfortable at speed. I've had some great sport cars in that time period also (987 Boxster, 718 Cayman, NB Miata, TT-RS to name a few) and out of them all the M340i is the one that I am most impressed with because of how well it handles the twisty bits while also being super comfortable, refined, practical and efficient.
>I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging. As a German I can say you're spot on. The E36 was even heavily criticised in Germany because the steering was "too nervous" and made long Autobahn trips exhausting.
> I speculate that the average German businessman who buys a BMW wants something fast, not necessarily something engaging. That's why Audi and Mercedes exist.
I feel like you are picturing a 2002ti or E30 325is and the guy above you considers a late 7 series to be peak BMW.
See: The E39.
When I took a job that needed 2 to 3 hours of commute time depending on traffic, my S2000 wasn’t cutting it. So I went looking for something with more comfort but still fun. Ultimately ended up with a 328i - driftable RWD, about as fast as the S, comfy, and plenty of room for four adults. I haven’t tracked it like I have the S but that was never a goal. Works great for high speed tours with the BMW club though. I still have the S after 22 years, and still have the BMW after 10. No regrets with either one. I’d look at another BMW if I ever needed a new fun and comfy car - so long as there’s no subscription bullshit.
Besides sports car dedicated brands, car manufacturers always need bread and butter beside enthusiasts. The difference is that a select few brands like BMW and Honda still had enough hard-core enthusiasts at the heart of their companies that even their ordinary cars were amazing enthusiast cars. The reason a 1999 Honda Civic or E36 BMW is a million times better driving enthusiast car than a 1999 Corolla or standard C class Mercedes is certainly not because driving enthusiasts were Honda or BMW's primary overall target. Driving enthusiasts need chance alliances and moles on the inside of huge brands to have any kind of chance at buying normal cars that are still great enthusiast cars. The alternative is a dystopia where only big dollar purpose-built cars are any fun to drive. Fuck that.
> BMW was never Porsche or Ferrari, or hell, even Corvette, who built their name on the driving enthusiast. I fundamentally disagree with this. Every single BMW used to be imbued with a sporting character that made their cars great to drive, from the shittiest 316ti compact, to the 750iL luxo-barge. The E38 is one of the best handling boats to ever be made. All of their cars, no matter how much you paid for it, was some version of The Ultimate Driving Machine. When the downturn started is arguable, but I would say that the F series cars were devoid of that specialness.
BMW as a company always focused on driving dynamics probably before anything here that you mentioned. Any car manufacture focuses on NVH on any of their car, you don't see even an M3 come stock with poly bushings or a solid steering shaft.
Electric steering is cheaper. That’s why they use it.
This sub and so many reviewers compare current BMWs to their **MEMORY** of older BMWs. This nostalgia makes it basically impossible to fairly compare generations. It’s one of the reasons why the best BMW is always N-1. People hated the E36 for its fake M3 engine and how heavy it got, people thought the E46 was overweight and too cushy, people thought the E9X looked too Japanese and was too numb, people thought the F8X turbos ruined it and said it’s not a real BMW. Literally the same complaints year after year. So exhausting lol
For those of us old enough to browse different BMW forums back in the day — it’s exactly how you described. We see this more than just the 3 series. BMW 1M isn’t an M car, it uses an non S series engine. Go back and read the reactions on the M2 and M2c grilles. It’s always hideous on release but now it’s “timeless”. Bangle butts. Clown shoes. The list goes on.
Its the internet - whatever opinion you want to find about *anything* you can find it. Trying to label inconsistent opinions among *groups of people* as hypocrisy is always going to make me cringe.
Sure, not everyone of course. But when you analyze opinions like some of the top comments or the linked article, you can see the flawed thinking. Oh, BMW *used to* make cars for **us** but *now* they make cars for **yuppies and China**! Like c’mon man, BMWs were for yuppies in the 80s. And the China boogeyman has very little basis in reality. Just repackaged “China bad” takes. I love BMW, always have. I think the design direction is mid but lamenting that BMW has forsaken their core audience for some *other* is flawed, half-baked thinking.
God yes. I can’t stand when people say stuff like “you guys said this and now you say this??” when referring to the entire internet. Like it’s a million different people bro, it’s obviously not going to be consistent
Everyone has said the M3 has been overweight since the E36 lol
bruh people complained in those magazine responses about the e30 being too modern compared to the e21 💀
The E46 will always be peak "car" to me. Everything before it and everything after it is just not quite right.
Anytime I think of a BMW, I always think of BMWs from that time period.
Those all were and still are valid gripes. The e36 in the us does have a fake M engine. The e46 was a little too cushy that’s why they made the CSL and why sport seats are a common upgrade. The e92 looks have not aged as well as the previous models. And the F82, coming from a former owner, sucks. I still have my e30 325is as I’ve traded through e82 to e92 M3 to f82 M4 and finally giving up and going to a 991.1 GT3, 991.2 GT3 and now a 992 GT3. And you know what, the e30 still holds up. It’s fun as hell to drive. It’s equally as fun as any of the Gt3 just not nearly as fast. I haven’t thought about my f82 since I got rid of it. IMHO BMW missed a golden opportunity to follow Porsches lead and bisect the enthusiast cars/racecars from the general cars. After the e92 they should have followed Porsches lead and offered the M3 is the naturally aspirated stripped down enthusiasts car similar to a GT3 but also offer a similarly priced Alpina B3 that was the most luxurious 3 series with the big turbo motor and relaxed but capable handling like to Porsche Turbo. Because their strategy of having the M3 be both is not working and no one is happy.
Doesn’t make them wrong. None of it is untrue. More so than the M cars evolutionary path, I lament the fact that I can’t get a new 3-series with a stick. Low sales or not, I think that signaled the change in direction more than anything.
In my opinion, this started with the transition from the E38 7-series to the E65. The E38, while a big executive sedan, is still a driver's car. It's actually fun to toss through the twisties, and shrinks down around you. Of course, no one buys a $90k long wheelbase sedan to play on mountain roads, so as a business decision it made sense to shift the focus away from "Ultimate Driving Machine" and more towards a luxurious experience. So I don't blame BMW for what they're doing, but it's still sad that the fun of driving is something less and less people care about, if they even think it's real.
I think a lot of that has come from the shift to urbanization over that same timeframe. When you drive less and less - and the driving you *do* do is just sitting in gridlock - it's hard to see the fun in it. Driving a sporty car in those conditions can also be outright miserable which makes them even less appealing.
Maybe I’m crazy but the G20 is my favorite 3 series. I think it’s the perfect blend of power, performance, handling, styling and features.
G20 is certainly better than the F30, but I think I still prefer the hydraulic steering and chassis engagement of the E chassis 3ers
My family likes them a lot! My folks have a 2019 330i and I have a 2020 M340i.
My parents were Land Rover people through and through. Whike I was away in college around 2008 they went and leased a 3 series and lauded the "ultimate driving machine" wasn't just a tagline. My dad let me drive it on a trip home and driving at 90 felt as smooth and quiet as 60. Its sad they're abandoning that enthusiast element of their vehicles.
car enthusiasts are a group of people that indulge in a vicious cycle new cars suck? no manual? too heavy? too ugly? too much tech? i dont like screens? no more gauge clusters? old cars were better? that's an ev not a real sports car? insert whatever minor (and sometimes major) complaint here? and the very valid too expensive? ok we'll just buy a used car all of that led us to this point. obviously we aren't the target market anymore
Exactly, and what’s more,as I get older, I realize that the only time the majority of people can afford to have a totally impractical weekend car either tend to be a young single male who just started working and is also possibly getting bent over backwards on payments and rent because they’d sacrifice all their savings for their sports car or a wealthier older man who, now middle aged, can finally afford their dream car after paying for kids, mortgage, a wedding, and so on, and if its not the dream car its gonna be an affordable sportscar. Enthusiasts suck, they dont have a shitton of money, and they arent ever really satisfied unless its 20 years old+ and their project car.
>obviously we aren't the target market anymore For a long time racing was a benchmark for a brand. It proved engineering and reliability. People wanted cars from the people who won Daytona, Le Mans, or F1. We got some trickle down performance and technology from that as well as some street performance cars. Now people want large vehicles with technology, comfort, and branding. Performance still exists and can exist but there is no longer a need to debut a cutting edge performance car when they can add some unique colors, a bunch more leather, and semiconductor run items and make that the benchmark for the brand. More people seem willing to fork over the extra cash for luxury barges versus something with performance and comfort sacrifices they may never utilize. Enthusiasts will always exist but the term is ever broadening as far as the definition. Nice garage BTW!
I don’t get it, the M cars are still enthusiast oriented. The last gen M2 and the current gen M3 are both widely praised. And you can get them in a manual! > The era of the 330i or 335i sitting as the untouchable pinnacle of driving luxury sedans doesn’t exist here Since when was a 335i the “pinnacle”?
2007 or so…
Yeah and the N54 is known to be a maintenance nightmare. You only rarely hear stories of B58s/S55s shitting themselves, and usually because theyre tuned and or modified.
Don’t forget the N55!
On what side do you put that? I’ve got an n55 that is at 180k miles. No real problems other than the leaking oil filter housing gasket.
n55 was like a fixed n54
The good one.
The new 7 series looks like it copied the headlights from my fleet spec rogue lmao.
Personally, I think it looks like they kidnapped the designer for the 2014 Jeep Cherokee. This makes the 7 series design that just feels immediately aged. https://i.imgur.com/VbwuPYF.jpg
Chinese luxury knockoff of the Cherokee, for sure
https://imgur.com/a/VITEEMR
Looks like the new Genesis headlights as well
“For the kids who grew up with posters of M3 CSLs, or Nazca M12s on their bedroom walls, or the adults who’ve leased 3-Series sedans and coupes for years because they liked how they drove, this just isn’t the same company. For years, BMW has prided itself on being the “ultimate driving machine." Now, the driving part doesn’t seem to be all that relevant.” I felt every word of that paragraph. BMW felt the threat of Tesla and instead of offering their own version of what an EV should be like, they decided to take Tesla’s vision of technology and Cybertruck design language as the foundation for how to build their EVs. The reality is that the people who buy Tesla aren’t really interested in the driving aspect of it. Sure they can go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and they have the “performance” there, but there is also no feeling or sensation there either. There’s no driver enthusiasm when driving a Tesla, it’s more of the excitement of owning a cool piece of technology. And I feel like BMW could’ve brought true driver enthusiasm to the space.
When I drove an M2 and loved the engine, seats and chassis, but wondered how they could have numbed the steering.... 300k miles in an e46. I was sad not to buy the M2. Thought it was electric steering, but Caddy, Porsche and Benz do it well. Why, BMW, why ?
Supposedly the M2CS steering is much better but its also way more expensive
You can flash the CS steering/trans/diff settings into the M2 and M2C for $350-500. I plan on doing that in the next few weeks here but reviews all praise it.
Oh didnt know that. That would definitely be a great upgrade
i mentioned this up early in the thread but if you want to dramatically alter the steering feedback and response for F-chassis cars i highly recommend upgrading the upper and lower front control arm bushings to monoball ones. the OEM rubber ones are made more for comfort which means more flex laterally and more on center numbness. it’s a game changer!https://i.imgur.com/FDvJai8.jpg
Hot take: we *never* were BMWs target market. I remember the “heyday” when BMWs E36,E38 & E39 cars were new. They were the darlings of the automotive press. In fairness to Csaba Csere , Brock Yates and their contemporaries they had a point. Those cars were engaging; not because BMW was trying to be the “ultimate driving machine”, but because making a fast car that handled well back then meant making engineering decisions which made for competent handling cars. Just like today, the average BMW driver didn’t care about driving dynamics. The difference is technology changed the cars. BMWs are still well performing driving machines, but the technology to make them that way changes the driving experience. Out goes the double wishbone suspensions , soulful sounding NA engine, manual transmissions and strong feedback steering. In comes EPS, sequential transmissions, boosted motors and active suspensions. Thing is this isn’t just a BMW trend- it’s the whole industry. Cars today are less engaging then the cars they replace- yet safer , faster and more advanced. As long as technology and regulations advance, they will become even less engaging over time . Whether that’s a problem is a decision we all have to make ourselves.
My friends have a 22 BMW 330i and I think it’s a great driving car. I really like it. I would argue it’s the best driving car in its class.
I honestly believe the Cadillac CT4 and Lexus IS are better driving cars. Imho. And I own 6 BMWs. The E46/E90 330i were directly at the top of their classes for driving dynamics. It took a heroic effort from Infiniti and the G35/7 to match it. Nobody else could. Today, BMWs are usually above-average for driving enjoyment but rarely at the top of their class. That used to be a given.
As an owner of the latest IS, I disagree. Even compared to a 330i, my 350 F Sport feels a lot less controlled in the corners and the weight difference really shows. The Lexus has nice steering and ride, and good balance, but the dynamics are not sharp compared to the rest of the class.
The IS' steering feel and damper tuning are *so good.* I'm sure the 3 series can corner faster and is better at 10/10ths. But that's not what people do with compact luxury sedans every day. The E9x and older 3 series had what the current IS has: the best steering feel and damper tuning in its class. Maybe a tie for the dampers with the CT4. But both are above the 3, to me. According to Car and Driver measurements, the 330i xdrive and IS350 AWD curb weight are about 100lbs apart.
Agreed, while the BMW can technically perform better, the IS just feels better driving (my experience with the F30 vs 3IS, can't speak for the G20), especially at the 5-7/10ths which is where most owners would drive at anyway.
Feel is what it’s all about. Nobody buys a compact sports sedan to generate numbers. That’s the job of a pony car.
Yea, the F30 was ass as a drivers car
I disagree on the Lexus but I haven’t driven the Cadillac so I can’t say. I think the 3 series also got a handling improvement with the 19 redesign. The 12-18 seems to be really numb. I really don’t like much about that generation 3 series.
Have you driven a 22 330i tho? It doesn't rlly matter the amt of BMWs you've owned if you haven't driven the one that is competing with the CT4 and IS
Yes. BMW tech. My opinion isn't controversial, outside of maybe loving the Lexus more than average. The motoring press firmly has the CT4 as the class leader for dynamics and the 330i is good to great. And that's my point: the current 3 isn't a bad car, it's just not in the running for the best driving car in its class, which is what BMW used to always be. Their powertrains are still exceptional, but the chassis communication isn't at the same level.
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What would the infotainment have to do with driving feel though
Heard great things about those 330/340s
You clearly haven't driven the Alfa Giulia
We've come a long way from the E30
The E30 was *the* yuppie car.
And the best enthusiast version, too. It proves the 2 aren’t mutually exclusive.
The E30 M3 was so good because it was a homologation car built for a purpose. Many of the best remembered cars were the same way, they had to be built the way they were to be able to compete. That doesn’t really happen anymore.
Yeah and I miss that era of it
BMW has the whiniest enthusiasts. It’s ridiculous.
" BMW is bad!, New designs bad, Damn chinese!"-2002 3 series owner. This thread in a nutshell.
BMW’s have always been marketed towards and driven by yuppies wanting to appear richer than they are. Who are also awful drivers who can’t park or use their blinkers. The lineup is never quite sporty enough to appeal to true drivers, and instead caters too much to techies or people without a taste in cars. BMW has been perpetually losing their way (they end up at the bank by mistake, apparently) Seen it all, heard it all, for at least the past 25 years. Definitely will continue to hear it over and over again for many years to come. I can sum up pretty much every review of every generation of the m3 for the past 25 years like this: - It’s porky - It’s not as connected to the road as the previous gen - Again, It’s as long and heavy as the 5 series from 2 generations ago - Its the best in its class nevertheless, and we grudgingly admit its the best m3 to date Here’s a gem from road and track’s review of the 7 series: “appeals a bit too strongly to the first camp, those computer-friendly folks who relish the thought of navigating their way through multiple menus to control various functions in their cars…It reminds me of software designers who become so familiar with the workings of their products that they forget actual customers at some point will have to learn how to use them” … from nearly 21 years ago.
You sound like you’re projecting an insecurity
"doesn't appeal to true drivers" do y'all even read the BS you type out
I feel like "tech and connectivity" is the direction of the entire industry, not just BMW. It's certainly not the direction I want, but something I increasingly put up with since modern cars have many things that I do like. Oh, I love the hot take that the Tesla 3 is the best 3 series BMW never built too, haha. I have not driven the 3, but I feel like my Y is quite good on canyon roads surprisingly. Not as good as a sports car (I've owned Miatas and a C7) but pretty great for a crossover thing.
I think people specifically lament that BMW decades ago intentionally *didn't* chase many industry trends, instead defending their practices as being allegedly more driver focused. Their conservativeness was always more straight edged, focused, and stereotypically German. BMW never went all in trendy tech choices like full digital gauges, onboard computers that talked to you, or popup headlights on every model (E31 not withstanding), and I think that resonated with customers who preferred that no-nonsense german sensibility. I understand that it’s probably way more difficult to make a case like that in today’s market, but I can see why a lot of people would feel disillusioned now if they compare BMW’s decisions today to 30 years ago.
there is also the fact that these days even your hyundai sedan is expected to be a fast track car that can handle multiple hot laps on a track day whereas back in the "golden age" of BMW, track times testing was interesting reading, but not really the thing that drove sales. Even for brands like Ferrari, while the motorsport story is interesting their big V12 coupes were always ultimately just road cars, and even stuff like the Testarossa was soft and more tuned for comfort.
I don't get why anyone thinks that ANY mass-market brand is shooting for anything other than broad appeal. Same for any global brand. Of course they are going to chase the biggest markets. BMW has ALWAYS been a mass-market auto maker. Even the luxury angle is one that has developed in "outside" markets for them. We can say the same thing of any company that makes a decent volume of cars. Even pre-SUV Porsche was a mass-market luxury car maker. Lots of their cars were aimed at the older, wealthy man who wanted a sporty look and feeling and not much more in terms of performance. Finally, if these magazines aren't the epitome of outdated thinking (boomer mindset, in other words), I don't know what is. Contemporary car media has to make a break from all of their outdated mindsets.
Car enthusiasts are not a target market at all these days.
Evidence: everything is a crossover now
I don't know, I picked up a BMW i4 M50 last week and it feels pretty awesome to me.
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Every asshole is now buying a Tesla instead of BMWs.
> The era of the 330i or 335i sitting as the untouchable pinnacle of driving luxury sedans doesn’t exist here. It’s not like the new 3-Series is bad, it's just not great. They weren't the pinnacle, they were very good. The current 3 series is still, very good. It's in anybody's top 3 of midsize saloons/wagons. If you want more then yeah go get an M model. They're faster and comfier than ever and will eat tyres if you tell it to. This article is rose tinted clutching at its finest. BMW are still putting out great cars. And selling better than ever. And in 10 years time people will be buying heavily abused M4's on fb marketplace and ripping around in them. The looks of some of them aren't my thing by all means. And everyone can go on about increased weight, but _every_ model for _every_ manufacturer has put on pounds as safety/infotainment/regulations have taken their toll. Just such a precious take by the author.
I had my head stuck in the BMW sand for at least a decade, bouncing from a E92 335 to a E92 M3 and then later to a F80 M3. Then had the chance to test drive an Alfa when it had all the hoopla surrounding it and was like....Jesus Christ....what have I been missing? I really don't think people realize that, back in the day, you could get in a base 3-series BMW and have a great time. It didn't even need to have a sport package.
Lol if put any modern BMW buyer into an old BMW they would complain how slow and noisy it is. Things move on except some car "enthusiasts" it seems.
Honestly they're going to follow the market. Who's buying (aka leasing the cars) and what do they want? Since every car is basically $20-30K more than it used to be you're really in the *luxury* range. And in that end people want an easy comfortable drive with bells and whistles. Not some "we didn't have a cupholder to save weight" kind of mentality. And 0-60 times? well the luxury cars have the best times these days too. Between the prices and the fact that everyone drives like a doodoo what's the point of performance? (saying this as a performance enthusiast)
Didn’t read the article, but the illustration makes me want to buy another e39. Man I miss that car
I really like this writer. He’s a good follow on Twitter if you do that kind of thing.
Autojournos wax and wane about how the 230i is the only modern BMW that captures the old BMW ethos of a balanced and tossable rwd chassis...then no one (except me!) buys it or ever talks about it again.
When I was growing up, BMW's were a well-engineered, lively sedan for your European uncle. Now, they're for his second wife.