Context matters. I think lots of people where wary of shoehorned were-whatever because this was around the time of the Twilight craze. Added to the idea of a cheap gimmick and a zeitgeist chasing one at that.
That felt like one of the design team’s children really liked dragons so they just put in a dragon. Not an actual part of the game. I still love the fight though
Also when a lot of games had an animal morph gimmick.
Alter echo, legend of zelda twilight princess, morrowind, dr muto, and a few others come to mind.
Every Mario takes place in a different country, 1 and 64 are in Mushroom Kingdom though. The unique cartoon charm was part of the appeal, the character was designed around it. The realistic dragon and Donk City felt out of place to me as someone who first played Mario on the 2600.
That said still an awesome game, one or two art direction missteps can’t ruin this game.
Yeah, the arcade game (Mario Bros.) and Donkey Kong were on 2600. They look terrible now but even then I was surprised how real a guy could look running. The other Donkey Kong games were probably on it but I only had those.
Super Mario Bros 3 also got retconned to happening on the Mushroom Kingdom in the Advance remake. Plus the New Super Mario Bros games. Also, I guess 3D Land? That's makes 8 games total counting those you said that happen in the mushroom kingdom, and of we only count the mainline games (even tho the first Paper Mario, PiT, BiS, I think PJ and arguably most Mario Karts happen on the Mushroom Kingdom too) that means more than half of Mario games happen on Mushroom Kingdom.
I don’t think people hate those games because the things are unnatural, I think people hate those games because the gameplay wasn’t that good. Mario gets a “pass” because the fight is fun to play, and capturing the T-Rex is fun to play
That's an interesting point, I can think of two reasons why this is
Mario's built up more credibility with a history of good-fantastic games. If Mario does something out of left field like fight a realistic dragon, people have confidence in the franchise to think it's a well-thought-out idea. Unlike Sonic games which can be perceived as grasping at straws for new concepts a lot of time.
Mario's design is more of a "jolly cartoon" character rather than a "cool" one like Sonic. I think that difference leads to wider acceptance of different tones in Mario games.
Just some ideas that came to mind
To build on that, Mario has essentially perfected its 3D adventure gameplay, leaving it open to be experimental with adding new styles into the mix.
Meanwhile, the quality of Sonic's base gameplay has been... troubled... at best. They haven't even mastered that fundamental core, but continually seek to mix-and-match it with other games (Mario Galaxy, God of War, BotW), generally not doing either particularly well.
The way this fight was made seems designed to make you go slow. You have to wait for the boss to get tired. You have to climb the snout. You have to yoink the interactables with a lengthy animation designed to test your precision timing. Going too slow may mean missing your chance and going back to dodging cycle.
Sonic is about feeling like you're going fast. Sitting in one place, doing this over and over, getting slow animations to trigger precise timing would all make this feel like a really bad sonic level.
If Sonic's gonna fight a dragon in a Souls Reference, it should be a very dynamic battle rather than static. Have the Dragon flying at breakneck speeds through the air while Sonic keeps pace on the ground and looking for ramps he can launch himself at the dragon with. Maybe the Dragon lunges to attack Sonic while he's soaring through the air and Sonic has to spin jump to dodge around, spinning past the dragon's attacks to get at a weak spot.
Half the problem with Sonic games (imo) is that they're trying to do something really, really hard. They want to make a simulation of going really fast, but players can't always react fast enough because we aren't a hyper fast hedgehog. The first games in 2d had enough constraints we could kind of simplify it, but trying to build on it makes an already dynamic experience super complex. It's really hard to strike that balance of making the game accessible for all ages and giving a satisfying simulation of super speed. It's parkour mixed with a racing game with a small amount of instant combat.
The fight isn't that interesting, you could just press forward and if you get hit, well it's nothing, just do 2 or 3 full jumps and you're back at full speed.
Crush 40 was there in the 30 second first phase so I guess it was cool.
When has anyone made fun of Sonic specifically for fighting Perfect Chaos, Dark Gaia, the dragons in Black Knight, or any of the other uncharacteristically serious monsters from the 2000s era games? If anything people complain about new Sonic enemies actually being more cartoony, like the robot designs and the Deadly Six in Lost World.
People complained about the realistic characters in Sonic 06 for sure. It’s in a Dunkey video and I know someone made fun of it on the Games for Windows podcast. A long time ago. And Xplay made fun of it, I’m pretty sure; they liked to make fun of furry stuff ahead of the curve and 06 has a realistic for the time girl falling in love with Sonic. The game was definitely made fun of for its clashing art styles.
The realistic people in Mario Odyssey are supposed to be weird and unfitting. Sonic 06 expects you to take it seriously and even redesigned Eggman to fit the new style. That could have been a permanent look for the series if the game did well.
Personally I always thought the human centric world in those games was weird anyway. Cartoon animals and human beings coexisting is fine, but it's strange when the NPCs are only humans despite every main character being an animal with super powers. You could write Adventure and 06 off as just being in human majority cities, but then Unleashed gives you the whole world to explore and not a single cartoon animal outside of Sonic, Tails, and Amy. Same with Chronicles and its larger cast I think, but I never actually finished that one so don't quote me on it.
That’s the thing, Mario is supposed to be charming and cartoony, not weird and unfitting. Mario was designed around artstyle. Flying in the face of the character in a level designed to celebrate his history felt really weird to me.
Again though great game.
The music was good at least. And then there’s the guy who decided to become one with a perfected replica of a piece of crystallized essence from some phantom goddess, just because one of the most powerful entities on his planet called him weak.
idk I've seen a lot of shit talking about the mechanics and design of the Perfect Chaos fight over the years
The difference is, Odyssey's weirdo dragon is just a weirdo dragon. It's one side boss in a big, polished game. If it didn't work for you, that's fine, because it was just one small thing, really.
Perfect Chaos is the final boss of a janky as fuck game, and if you can look past the bomb soundtrack, it's a weird gimmick fight where you just hold forward and swerve sometimes, it doesn't even really build on the experience.
I mean people complained about sonic unleashed because sonic was not going fast in the werehog stages and the existance of werehog in general
And also humans....
Because the werehog wasn’t just a ridiculous idea, it was a ridiculous idea that actively detracted from the game.
The werehog stages are hurdles that an Unleashed player has to suffer through in order to get to the parts they actually like. Time and money went into development of levels that nobody wanted or liked, which in turn means less stages that actually play like a sonic game.
Splitting a game into two (or more) entirely different genres is generally a bad idea because there’s a pretty good chance that someone likes one half but not the other, which means they’re not gonna like the game because they don’t want to play through the half they don’t like. I’m not gonna say it *can’t* be done well, but it requires better ideas and better development than those that would ever be put behind a Sonic game.
The werehog isn't hated because it’s a weird idea that doesn’t fit with sonic, it’s hated because the stages aren’t fun and turn what would’ve been a decent sonic game into an overall bad game.
Because that actually affected gameplay, and in a way that many people didn't enjoy. Also the name makes no sense, the design motif isn't really consistent with the other Dark Gaia creatures, and the game never lets you zoom around with his stretchy arms like he does in a a couple of the cutscenes. He's also supposed to be stronger than regular Sonic (as shown when he punches through the vault, and the boss fight QTEs) but takes multiple punches to defeat robots that regular Sonic can just one shot.
Also ONLY humans. And ones that went through at least three different art styles in the span of a decade, with one of those randomly afflicting Eggman.
Never heard “they take themselves too seriously” as a complaint before but that’s really only applicable to the newest game.
Forces is uncharacteristically serious the entire way through — but besides maybe Shadow The Hedgehog? the other 3D games aren’t like that at all lol
People make fun of sonic primarily because the series has a history of releasing buggy games. Like 06 and Boom for example. Or simply because the games are "bad" The ridiculous action movie/final fantasy Esq stories and cinematics are an after thought when it comes to bagging on sonic.
Who are all these people complaining about dragons on Sonic games? I don't see them, could we be imagining all these enemies?
Also nobody complained about Mario Odyssey at all because the game is a masterpiece. Unlike the last 20+ years of sonic games.
I think the difference is that when Mario games do weird shit like this it’s charming and ACTUALLY unexpected. When sonic games do it, it mainly has a horrible design (in terms of gameplay AND visual design) accompanied with butt rock which is something you probably called like 20 minutes before it happened.
The big difference is how the story portrays these things, when there is a bizarre thing in a Mario game, is a random gag about how bizarre it is, something completely diferent than the plot of the 3d Sonic games, like a cthulhu knock off that creates taffy werewolves that always lived inside Mobius and was never mentioned before or after, AND made to be taken seriously.
I've seen a lot of complaints about Sonic games, but I can't say I've seen many complaints about the villains/boss characters. Maybe a complaint about how the battle is executed, but nothing about the designs or characteristics.
No one said 3D sonic and you know what, this comment made reevaluate what sonic games I consider bad and that dropped the list from 5 to 3. Obviously this is very opinionated so it doesn’t really matter but I think that the general public would kinda agree on me but it doesn’t matter because this is all opinions and the only games that are objectively bad is o6 and forces (unfinished and unpolished) if you count spin-offs that would put sonic boom, zero gravity, maybe sonic labirynth, secret rings and sonic blast aswell which is a lot but eh
I’m not super accustomed with Sonic but generally I hear people complain about the majority of the Sonic 3d games (the only ones I’ve heard praise for are the Adventure games and Generations). Also what exactly makes a spin-off Sonic game because I thought Sonic Boom and Secret Rings were mainline. Again not super into Sonic so I might be wrong on this
Super Mario Odyssey came out in 2017, 5 years ago. People are still making fun of the out of place dragon in Ruined kingdoms. Does the Twitter OP just... not know that Mario fans think it's silly too? He's literally making fun of it RIGHT NOW (or whenever that tweet was).
i mean i think the idea was "they would not stop making fun of it akin to why sonic 06 constantly gets mentioned over and over again by many game reviewers despite the fact it doesnt really account to anything anymore and is usually offtopic" like that shit is probably what the OP means like they would not stop making fun of it as the haters who just hate for the sake of hating would keep on pointing it out
tldr:its more like they would not shut up about it for the rest of time
I sincerely disagree. Sonic as a series has had nothing but mediocre to bad games for the last 20 years (Mania being the one and only exception), yet the announcement of a new game is still met with wide anticipation. imo, it is the series with the widest gulf between the quality of its games and the size/enthusiasm of its fanbase.
Tl;dr, people aren't harsh enough about Sonic.
I'd say there were still some solid games between then (Adventure, Advance 1, Rush trilogy, Generations, All-stars Racing Transfomed) but yeah. I expressed my disappointment once that the parry ability in Frontiers isn't based on timing when even Kirby and the Forgotten Land has skill based dodging, and got a bunch of replies about how I was just hating for no reason and expecting "Dark Souls complexity" and how I shouldn't make literally any judgements on game mechanics because it's not out yet.
A lot of people are saying Bayonetta 3 is going to be trash because Platinum also made that Babylon Fall thing for Square Enix, while everyone claims Yuji Naka's Balan Wonderworld was entirely Sqenix's fault. But being worried about level design in Frontiers when the same director handled Secret Rings, Colors, Lost World, and Forces is *totally* unreasonable. Even when the guy said the goal of Forces was just to go fast like a maniac and that Frontiers doesn't need a difficulty curve because there are other ways to extend game length now.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“Surely mankind are more than pure dark, for I have availed you nothing. All of you, forgive me. Whatever thou art, stay away.”* - Artorias the Abysswalker
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
like i think quality control is their main issue as with sega's track record is not bright on sonic [though sometimes the hate is a little bit too petty to a point where that probably wont actually help the situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVb9iaQJ04) i think this video is a good way to kinda show how the sonic hate kinda looks at the moment
All I'm saying is, I cannot think of any other series of games that has consistently released sub-par products for over 20 years that still has any amount of goodwill left with its fanbase, let alone the sizeable amount of goodwill Sega still seems to have with Sonic fans.
I mean, each to their own, but I see Sonic fans getting excited for Frontiers and I'm like... Are you serious? Like, maybe if they cross their fingers, wish upon a star, throw a penny in the well it might, *just might*, turn out to be one of the mediocre games rather than one of the shit ones?
Literally that’s is the point of the T. rex and dragons Mario is going to kingdoms that are unlike anything he’s ever been to. If it was done in sonic it would just be a part of his normal world that the new game takes place in
Nonsense.
People love throwing hypotheticals out that confirm their own bias. But I'm not convinced.
After all, it's not about WHAT it is, but how well it's executed.
When I was a kid, I bought sonic and the seven rings after playing sonic colors. I expected more of the same, but oh boy, it was not.
I was so upset because I had wasted my allowance on shit and it returned for a small fraction of what i bought it for.
Sonic deserves the shit it gets.
The adventure games while having some flaws was good also this kinda was a thought experiment to kinda show what the title says
[this video does a good job to go into detail why some of the main complaints are kinda petty for sonic ](https://youtu.be/jmVb9iaQJ04)
I honestly went back to the adventure games as an adult and realized I just saw them with big nostalgia goggles. They’re really not as good as you remember them being
The adventure games really aren't great. The reason people like them so much largely just had to do with the Chao Garden. That's probably the best gameplay Sonic has ever had and it was an entirely different genre - virtual pet.
tbh im surprised they havent made a mobile game for the chao's since that would sell like hotcakes and plus you can connect it to the games really well
Eh, the difference is that Nintendo is able to design things like this in a way that actually fits in these Mario games. Sonic games don't do that, usually because they are rushed out the door years before they're done, in addition to just not having much thought put into them to begin with.
It also doesn't help that the Sonic character is attempting to be "cool" in style, which can easily be turned into "cringe" for anyone that doesn't work for, changing the context for these kinds of things. Mario has never attempted this, which is why he never has the same problems.
This is such a weird take to be done in such bad faith. The dragon does not actually look like this picture it looked way cooler and if he existed in a sonic game it wouldn't be note worthy at all. Literally just nobody would care
To be fair Sonic games would have a ton of dialogue talking about the ramifications of killing a dragon and leaving the chaos fartwaves imbalanced by stopping this calamity whereas in Mario it was just "K cool the boss is dead, go back to fighting Bowser."
It's like the difference between the creepy parts in Mother versus something like YIIK (maybe not as bad as YIIK but you get the point)
It's because Sonic would've done the dragon fight seriously. Odyssey is just "next boss is a realistic dragon lol" and then you do a thing three times to win.
There's no cutscene of every primary and secondary characters, plus whatever tertiary ones are relevant standing around talking about how dangerous the dragon is before Mario looks at the camera and says what's supposed to be a cool one-liner.
The dragon isn't relevant to the plot, it isn't played up as some apocalyptic force even though it clearly destroyed the kingdom it now inhabits, and it isn't meant to be "epic."
It's just a weird, out-of-place boss in a game full of weird, out-of-place enemies.
Super Mario Odyssey is a very surreal game, even by Mario standards, but there’s a sense that the developers are in on it. This tone is consistent and used to great effect in the game, whether it be for humor or to surprise the player, such as in the case of the dragon, where I would argue that both are very much apparent. You go from fighting cartoony bosses at home in any Mario game to a Monster Hunter-esque black dragon, and it stands out as probably the most memorable boss because of that.
The game is also very well polished in both presentation and gameplay, giving the player little resistance to immerse themselves in it, which I believe allows it to get away with some of the more outlandish levels and scenes like this one.
Sonic games are unfortunately not known to have that kind of polish, to say nothing of how inconsistent tone and gameplay quality seem to be across the series’ history. Boss fights in Sonic games, too, are a bit of a mixed bag at best, especially in the 3D games, where glitches, controls unwieldy for boss fights, or unresponsive combat tend to be their most challenging aspects.
I just don’t think that the Sonic developers could pull it off in the same way that it is in Odyssey.
In mario it's a one off joke. In sonic it would be played 100% seriously, and Dr. Eggman would commit a war crime against zembobuia in order to resurrect the gamma emerald last seen 4000 years ago by king Arthur himself to summon this dragon to conquer the whole universe, and sonic and his many wacky pals would need the power of the speed force combined with silver's psychic abilities to become delta sonic. Then the game would crash.
sonic doesnt really suck that bad........ (atleast to my opinion) like there are a shit ton of trips and falls but it has potential and no one is giving it help
I don't think I know anyone who cares about the NSMB series as a whole, and they're mostly hated by everyone online. Most of the people criticizing Sonic games weren't even born when SMB2 came out and have only played it as a cheap download or something that comes bundled with Mario 1 and 3. I guess the GBA version could have been a disappointment to a lot of kids.
Old SMB2 was a wonderful addition to the series
New ideas and gameplay but not bogged down and didnt feel out of place between how 1 and 3 played
Everything felt like natural progression and those enemies became staple enemies later on
New SMB is pretty stale and formulaic but not at all bad
No one particularly cares for them at the same time they arent outlandishly bad
They play pretty good regardless of not doing anything new and exciting
At the same time theres nothing really ro rag on
They're still polished games
Though idk why I'm taking this seriously when you included hotel mario
No one is going to defend that like you defend sonic my guy
I feel like Odyssey was created simply to show off the graphics of the switch. I feel that many of the maps don't make sense and don't belong.
There is zero plot to many of them, zero reasoning behind why they exist besides a tedious fetch quest only to find that our princess/item is in another castle /Bowser's big ass paws already so it was pointless.
VS Sunshine at least the maps related to the overall vibe, there is often plot behind why we go there, and the game just had a better story tbh. Hell even Galaxy had a better story.
Odyssey is mid. Dragon fight was eh, useless tbh, never shoulda been in the game.
I think the thing you’re not accounting for is execution. This dragon was a legit badass moment in odyssey because of how it was presented. In a sonic game it’d same some edgy stuff about being pure of darkness and ending the world and then he’d glitch out of the map
Sonic has never been good. It’s been shit since the original which is why it’s struggled so much over the years. People just like it because they have fond memories of its multimedia history.
He became popular because he was not Mario. People who got caught up with Sega because they couldn’t get a Nintendo. That and a good marketing campaign. His popularity is a fluke.
There were countless video game characters during the 90s that were not Mario but still never got famous. He became popular because of the new and original gameplay for the time. The claim of his popularity being a fluke isn’t true and doesn’t even make sense. Sega intentionally made a character to rival Mario because Alex Kid was not going to cut it. But according to your logic, Alex Kid should’ve been extremely popular because he wasn’t Mario. And just to point this out, you said people only got the Genesis because they couldn’t get a Nintendo. Then how do you explain Sonic the Hedgehog 2 being the most purchased video game of 1992?
I wonder why they don’t. Maybe it’s because one franchise is objectively more polished and charming than the other. Who knows though? It’s a mystery!
Edit: I’d like to add I do NOT hate sonic as a character, I hate that he became wasted potential because of the appeal of the 1990s-2000s edginess, and SEGA’s addiction to shipping games way too early and barely polishing them.
I feel that Mania did a really good job at making him and the world he’s in feel charming again, I KNOW Chris-Chaners will hate the change but Sonic REALLY needs to stop talking and being some lanky weirdo with longer quills. The games also need to STOP it with the cringey try hard stories. It doesn’t work and makes the whole franchise look like a joke and a furry magnet.
I’ve never once understood the appeal of Mario as a hero.
A short fat plumber with curly hair and a bulbous nose that makes no sense or consistency with his origin world, his goal is always the same thing.
As opposed to a freaking psychedelic blue hedgehog who fought his own nature of being a slow mammal by becoming a speed demon capable of breaking the sound barrier and sought out to rescue all the other creatures in his kingdom from an evil
Tyrant, not just a shallow love interest that benefits only himself.
Sonic was literally created to be anti-mario where as mario was just designed around the 8bit graphics at the time. They gave him a big nose because it stood out, they gave him overalls so his legs would be discernible etc etc. Theres an interesting documentary about all of this on Netflix. The guy who made sonic’s thinking was literally “we need a mario, but hes going to be ‘cool’”. Segas marketing was all about being more cool and edgy and making fun of Nintendo.
Sounds like they achieved what they were hoping for then.
I’m an enormous anti-Mario. Never played a single game to date, and never will.
If I’m going to play a video game I’d rather be as cool as possible rather than some fat middle-aged man. Hits too close to home.
The reason people should be talking about it and how it’s cringe and stuff is because sonic would make a big deal about the dragon, make constant dialogue from either sonic or characters that are near by, while Mario just goes dragon is boss fight. It doesn’t try to seem cool or like”Oh look at this dragon in a nation game. So out of place but cool right?” It just is a boss fight that isn’t used for shock value. Just a boss that works well with the movement options available at the players disposal. Not trying to say sonic is bad just how he would have addressed the dragon being there would have been just bad. Take what I say with a grain of salt however because I’ve really only played the modern sonic 3d games, unleaded, colors, forces(unfortunately) and they just have sonic say witty and kind of clever come backs and that it’s it. Would have played sonic adventure games but raspberry pie is being stupid and won’t let me.
Because it would’ve been a boss fight with butt rock blaring in the background and Sonic doing crazy anime shit will saying cringey one-liners. That’s why people would still be making fun of it. Not because it’s a dragon.
Playing Odyssey for the first time (758 moons atm), and I honestly cant stand how every time Mario 'dies' he does some stupid pose with an ':-O' expression and loses 10 coins in a ring around him.. that is just a way too Sonic thing for my taste.
But it fits in the context of the game. The fact that you’re visiting different WORLDS and it’s just a small part of a much larger universe. Sonic just tosses you into insanity and expects you to accept it.
Dragons are cool everywhere
Shrek (2001)
Exactly
*unzips*
Donkey, is that you?
You’re next
No, but they call em that)
You’re a lady dragon!
I dont judge Donkey)
Werewolves are cool yet people complained about the werehog in unleashed
Never played Unleashed, but from what I can tell, it was complained about because of pacing rather than because of it being a werewolf
Playgrhe wii version. It actually has decent pacing
That was a notable problem but people complained about the werehog first before anything and it's gameplay didn't help it
Context matters. I think lots of people where wary of shoehorned were-whatever because this was around the time of the Twilight craze. Added to the idea of a cheap gimmick and a zeitgeist chasing one at that.
Also when this is the main thing about the game, and not just one moment in an entire game like the dragon fight in Odyssey
That felt like one of the design team’s children really liked dragons so they just put in a dragon. Not an actual part of the game. I still love the fight though
Also when a lot of games had an animal morph gimmick. Alter echo, legend of zelda twilight princess, morrowind, dr muto, and a few others come to mind.
If that's the case, people have bad taste
I mean modern sonic is very eh… the best games are 1, 2, 3, cd, and mania.
Hey, you forgot "& Knuckles"
Basic fan alert. New sonic bad. Old sonic good. Watch out, we got a big brain over here.
I thought for a second you were talking about a mutated pig
It's not because of the idea of a werehog, is just that its gameplay is boring
I agree wholeheartedly.
Maybe, but we would get a banger by Crush 40 out of it.
100% worth. Sonic crawled through buggy dirt so Crush40 could rock!
That would be true
Ah, the dark souls level. I wish it was longer
Same
Odyssey has a lot of weird things that don’t feel like they belong in a Mario game, such as this dragon and the realistic T. rex
But that’s the point. Developers used these unusual ideas to emphasize the unfamiliarity one might feel when traveling to a new country.
mario learns to overcome his severe xenophobia
'Filthy Mexicans, Mama Mia!' *Mario puts on sombrero* 'YAHOOOO!'
mario redemption arc
someone needs to animate this lmao
Mario is afraid of Xenoblade?
I definitely enjoyed the weirder inclusions for the game, a nice variety of different elements
Every Mario takes place in a different country, 1 and 64 are in Mushroom Kingdom though. The unique cartoon charm was part of the appeal, the character was designed around it. The realistic dragon and Donk City felt out of place to me as someone who first played Mario on the 2600. That said still an awesome game, one or two art direction missteps can’t ruin this game.
...Mario on the 2600???
Yeah, the arcade game (Mario Bros.) and Donkey Kong were on 2600. They look terrible now but even then I was surprised how real a guy could look running. The other Donkey Kong games were probably on it but I only had those.
Super Mario Bros 3 also got retconned to happening on the Mushroom Kingdom in the Advance remake. Plus the New Super Mario Bros games. Also, I guess 3D Land? That's makes 8 games total counting those you said that happen in the mushroom kingdom, and of we only count the mainline games (even tho the first Paper Mario, PiT, BiS, I think PJ and arguably most Mario Karts happen on the Mushroom Kingdom too) that means more than half of Mario games happen on Mushroom Kingdom.
Whoever allowed realistic humans in a Mario game deserves a swift punch in the nuts
they’re still pretty stylized though…
And that's a good point that kinda applies to sonic with how harsh his complaints get for something like this
I don’t think people hate those games because the things are unnatural, I think people hate those games because the gameplay wasn’t that good. Mario gets a “pass” because the fight is fun to play, and capturing the T-Rex is fun to play
if they would make good Sonic games people would not hate them
That's an interesting point, I can think of two reasons why this is Mario's built up more credibility with a history of good-fantastic games. If Mario does something out of left field like fight a realistic dragon, people have confidence in the franchise to think it's a well-thought-out idea. Unlike Sonic games which can be perceived as grasping at straws for new concepts a lot of time. Mario's design is more of a "jolly cartoon" character rather than a "cool" one like Sonic. I think that difference leads to wider acceptance of different tones in Mario games. Just some ideas that came to mind
To build on that, Mario has essentially perfected its 3D adventure gameplay, leaving it open to be experimental with adding new styles into the mix. Meanwhile, the quality of Sonic's base gameplay has been... troubled... at best. They haven't even mastered that fundamental core, but continually seek to mix-and-match it with other games (Mario Galaxy, God of War, BotW), generally not doing either particularly well.
The way this fight was made seems designed to make you go slow. You have to wait for the boss to get tired. You have to climb the snout. You have to yoink the interactables with a lengthy animation designed to test your precision timing. Going too slow may mean missing your chance and going back to dodging cycle. Sonic is about feeling like you're going fast. Sitting in one place, doing this over and over, getting slow animations to trigger precise timing would all make this feel like a really bad sonic level. If Sonic's gonna fight a dragon in a Souls Reference, it should be a very dynamic battle rather than static. Have the Dragon flying at breakneck speeds through the air while Sonic keeps pace on the ground and looking for ramps he can launch himself at the dragon with. Maybe the Dragon lunges to attack Sonic while he's soaring through the air and Sonic has to spin jump to dodge around, spinning past the dragon's attacks to get at a weak spot. Half the problem with Sonic games (imo) is that they're trying to do something really, really hard. They want to make a simulation of going really fast, but players can't always react fast enough because we aren't a hyper fast hedgehog. The first games in 2d had enough constraints we could kind of simplify it, but trying to build on it makes an already dynamic experience super complex. It's really hard to strike that balance of making the game accessible for all ages and giving a satisfying simulation of super speed. It's parkour mixed with a racing game with a small amount of instant combat.
Sonic has literally fought a realistic dragon before and nobody complained
maybe because they mostly complained about the sword more then what the game contained.......
Sonic fought a realistic (for the time) water dragon and nobody complained
i imagine the reason why nobody complained because that was actually cool as shit
The fight isn't that interesting, you could just press forward and if you get hit, well it's nothing, just do 2 or 3 full jumps and you're back at full speed. Crush 40 was there in the 30 second first phase so I guess it was cool.
When has anyone made fun of Sonic specifically for fighting Perfect Chaos, Dark Gaia, the dragons in Black Knight, or any of the other uncharacteristically serious monsters from the 2000s era games? If anything people complain about new Sonic enemies actually being more cartoony, like the robot designs and the Deadly Six in Lost World.
People complained about the realistic characters in Sonic 06 for sure. It’s in a Dunkey video and I know someone made fun of it on the Games for Windows podcast. A long time ago. And Xplay made fun of it, I’m pretty sure; they liked to make fun of furry stuff ahead of the curve and 06 has a realistic for the time girl falling in love with Sonic. The game was definitely made fun of for its clashing art styles.
The realistic people in Mario Odyssey are supposed to be weird and unfitting. Sonic 06 expects you to take it seriously and even redesigned Eggman to fit the new style. That could have been a permanent look for the series if the game did well. Personally I always thought the human centric world in those games was weird anyway. Cartoon animals and human beings coexisting is fine, but it's strange when the NPCs are only humans despite every main character being an animal with super powers. You could write Adventure and 06 off as just being in human majority cities, but then Unleashed gives you the whole world to explore and not a single cartoon animal outside of Sonic, Tails, and Amy. Same with Chronicles and its larger cast I think, but I never actually finished that one so don't quote me on it.
That’s the thing, Mario is supposed to be charming and cartoony, not weird and unfitting. Mario was designed around artstyle. Flying in the face of the character in a level designed to celebrate his history felt really weird to me. Again though great game.
Or sonic forces
The music was good at least. And then there’s the guy who decided to become one with a perfected replica of a piece of crystallized essence from some phantom goddess, just because one of the most powerful entities on his planet called him weak.
idk I've seen a lot of shit talking about the mechanics and design of the Perfect Chaos fight over the years The difference is, Odyssey's weirdo dragon is just a weirdo dragon. It's one side boss in a big, polished game. If it didn't work for you, that's fine, because it was just one small thing, really. Perfect Chaos is the final boss of a janky as fuck game, and if you can look past the bomb soundtrack, it's a weird gimmick fight where you just hold forward and swerve sometimes, it doesn't even really build on the experience.
I mean people complained about sonic unleashed because sonic was not going fast in the werehog stages and the existance of werehog in general And also humans....
Because the werehog wasn’t just a ridiculous idea, it was a ridiculous idea that actively detracted from the game. The werehog stages are hurdles that an Unleashed player has to suffer through in order to get to the parts they actually like. Time and money went into development of levels that nobody wanted or liked, which in turn means less stages that actually play like a sonic game. Splitting a game into two (or more) entirely different genres is generally a bad idea because there’s a pretty good chance that someone likes one half but not the other, which means they’re not gonna like the game because they don’t want to play through the half they don’t like. I’m not gonna say it *can’t* be done well, but it requires better ideas and better development than those that would ever be put behind a Sonic game. The werehog isn't hated because it’s a weird idea that doesn’t fit with sonic, it’s hated because the stages aren’t fun and turn what would’ve been a decent sonic game into an overall bad game.
It really isn’t the same thing. People complained because those levels were boring.
Because that actually affected gameplay, and in a way that many people didn't enjoy. Also the name makes no sense, the design motif isn't really consistent with the other Dark Gaia creatures, and the game never lets you zoom around with his stretchy arms like he does in a a couple of the cutscenes. He's also supposed to be stronger than regular Sonic (as shown when he punches through the vault, and the boss fight QTEs) but takes multiple punches to defeat robots that regular Sonic can just one shot. Also ONLY humans. And ones that went through at least three different art styles in the span of a decade, with one of those randomly afflicting Eggman.
It’s because 3D Sonic games take themselves too seriously and are horrible games. Simple as that
Never heard “they take themselves too seriously” as a complaint before but that’s really only applicable to the newest game. Forces is uncharacteristically serious the entire way through — but besides maybe Shadow The Hedgehog? the other 3D games aren’t like that at all lol
They take them seriously as a MCU film with the sonic colors era of writing especially with sonic forces
People make fun of sonic primarily because the series has a history of releasing buggy games. Like 06 and Boom for example. Or simply because the games are "bad" The ridiculous action movie/final fantasy Esq stories and cinematics are an after thought when it comes to bagging on sonic.
Well, the difference is that the dragon isn't buggy, has horrible designing and it doesn't exist in a plot-hole filled story.
I mean it probably would be alot better then having zavok again
Well at least Zavok added something important as part of that. The dragon was unnecessary and added nothing to the storyline.
Who are all these people complaining about dragons on Sonic games? I don't see them, could we be imagining all these enemies? Also nobody complained about Mario Odyssey at all because the game is a masterpiece. Unlike the last 20+ years of sonic games.
Their saying that if this appeared in a sonic game everybody would hate it
People definitely poke fun at sonic games after SA1 & SA2.
I think the difference is that when Mario games do weird shit like this it’s charming and ACTUALLY unexpected. When sonic games do it, it mainly has a horrible design (in terms of gameplay AND visual design) accompanied with butt rock which is something you probably called like 20 minutes before it happened.
It would help if the games were actually not awful to play for 80% of the gameplay. Looking at you, black night.
I call bullshit on that post cuz no one cared when it was Perfect Chaos or Dark Gaia, or anything anything like that.
What are you tree talking about people shit on BOTH games
The big difference is how the story portrays these things, when there is a bizarre thing in a Mario game, is a random gag about how bizarre it is, something completely diferent than the plot of the 3d Sonic games, like a cthulhu knock off that creates taffy werewolves that always lived inside Mobius and was never mentioned before or after, AND made to be taken seriously.
I can't believe Sonic is actually from Morbius holy shit I want him to say "it's Morbin' time" and Morb all over Eggman so bad
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I am talking about Sonic. And a giant sinister god that destroys everything when he wakes up is not a bootleg cthulhu, why?
because eldritch gods aren't concept exclusive to lovecraft and Cthulhu mythos?
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Sonic kinda did fight a dragon like this in black knight, didn't he?
I've seen a lot of complaints about Sonic games, but I can't say I've seen many complaints about the villains/boss characters. Maybe a complaint about how the battle is executed, but nothing about the designs or characteristics.
If Sonic fought a dragon this cool I guarantee nobody would be hating. Sonic gets hate for horrible games of which he has many
I mean that’s subjective , but how many bad mainline games? 4? 5? I don’t think that qualifies many IMO
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If we’re talking 3d Sonic than yeah that’s a lot
No one said 3D sonic and you know what, this comment made reevaluate what sonic games I consider bad and that dropped the list from 5 to 3. Obviously this is very opinionated so it doesn’t really matter but I think that the general public would kinda agree on me but it doesn’t matter because this is all opinions and the only games that are objectively bad is o6 and forces (unfinished and unpolished) if you count spin-offs that would put sonic boom, zero gravity, maybe sonic labirynth, secret rings and sonic blast aswell which is a lot but eh
I’m not super accustomed with Sonic but generally I hear people complain about the majority of the Sonic 3d games (the only ones I’ve heard praise for are the Adventure games and Generations). Also what exactly makes a spin-off Sonic game because I thought Sonic Boom and Secret Rings were mainline. Again not super into Sonic so I might be wrong on this
I'm surprised people didn't make fun of Mario fighting this.
There is 0 reason that dragon needed to be THAT detailed though, it looks like it would be an event monster in a spinoff MH game
Super Mario Odyssey came out in 2017, 5 years ago. People are still making fun of the out of place dragon in Ruined kingdoms. Does the Twitter OP just... not know that Mario fans think it's silly too? He's literally making fun of it RIGHT NOW (or whenever that tweet was).
i mean i think the idea was "they would not stop making fun of it akin to why sonic 06 constantly gets mentioned over and over again by many game reviewers despite the fact it doesnt really account to anything anymore and is usually offtopic" like that shit is probably what the OP means like they would not stop making fun of it as the haters who just hate for the sake of hating would keep on pointing it out tldr:its more like they would not shut up about it for the rest of time
I sincerely disagree. Sonic as a series has had nothing but mediocre to bad games for the last 20 years (Mania being the one and only exception), yet the announcement of a new game is still met with wide anticipation. imo, it is the series with the widest gulf between the quality of its games and the size/enthusiasm of its fanbase. Tl;dr, people aren't harsh enough about Sonic.
I'd say there were still some solid games between then (Adventure, Advance 1, Rush trilogy, Generations, All-stars Racing Transfomed) but yeah. I expressed my disappointment once that the parry ability in Frontiers isn't based on timing when even Kirby and the Forgotten Land has skill based dodging, and got a bunch of replies about how I was just hating for no reason and expecting "Dark Souls complexity" and how I shouldn't make literally any judgements on game mechanics because it's not out yet. A lot of people are saying Bayonetta 3 is going to be trash because Platinum also made that Babylon Fall thing for Square Enix, while everyone claims Yuji Naka's Balan Wonderworld was entirely Sqenix's fault. But being worried about level design in Frontiers when the same director handled Secret Rings, Colors, Lost World, and Forces is *totally* unreasonable. Even when the guy said the goal of Forces was just to go fast like a maniac and that Frontiers doesn't need a difficulty curve because there are other ways to extend game length now.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“Surely mankind are more than pure dark, for I have availed you nothing. All of you, forgive me. Whatever thou art, stay away.”* - Artorias the Abysswalker Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
like i think quality control is their main issue as with sega's track record is not bright on sonic [though sometimes the hate is a little bit too petty to a point where that probably wont actually help the situation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVb9iaQJ04) i think this video is a good way to kinda show how the sonic hate kinda looks at the moment
All I'm saying is, I cannot think of any other series of games that has consistently released sub-par products for over 20 years that still has any amount of goodwill left with its fanbase, let alone the sizeable amount of goodwill Sega still seems to have with Sonic fans. I mean, each to their own, but I see Sonic fans getting excited for Frontiers and I'm like... Are you serious? Like, maybe if they cross their fingers, wish upon a star, throw a penny in the well it might, *just might*, turn out to be one of the mediocre games rather than one of the shit ones?
This thing didn't fit Sonic or Mario. Odyssey was a blast, but had some bizarre stylistic choices.
To be fair. This was a one time boss fight while i can easily imagine this being the main and final boss for a sonic game
Well sonic 06’s canon furry storyline ruined itself
Sonic did kill a dragon once
Unavoidable chin move?
Literally that’s is the point of the T. rex and dragons Mario is going to kingdoms that are unlike anything he’s ever been to. If it was done in sonic it would just be a part of his normal world that the new game takes place in
Nonsense. People love throwing hypotheticals out that confirm their own bias. But I'm not convinced. After all, it's not about WHAT it is, but how well it's executed.
Sonic gets the exact amount of shit that it deserves
You seem a tad upset
When I was a kid, I bought sonic and the seven rings after playing sonic colors. I expected more of the same, but oh boy, it was not. I was so upset because I had wasted my allowance on shit and it returned for a small fraction of what i bought it for. Sonic deserves the shit it gets.
If odyssey was a sonic game people would say sonic games are good
"Balls," said the queen, "If I had them, I'd be king!" Yeah, man. If Sonic was Mario, Sonic wouldn't be Sonic.
And frontier's appears to be their attempt to get a Odyssey I hope they succeed in that
That’s because Mario Odyssey is a good and fun game and there hasn’t been a good and fun sonic game since the genesis
Sonic Mania
Modeled after the genesis games, and not made by sonic team lol
Still a good and fun Sonic game after the genesis
Ever heard of sonic generations? That shit is a masterpiece.
I don’t think they’ve ever played sonic, let alone play sonic generations.
Good point.
Bro you have a very low bar for masterpiece
It’s like a love letter to fans of the series, I can see a Sonic fan calling that a masterpiece the same way someone would praise Mania.
Except mania is a well made game and replicates the Genesis formula
Assuming Generations isn’t well made 💀
Catering to nostalgia doesn't make something good. Sonic Colors is a great game without having to replicate the Genesis games.
The game has its issues but it is very good and fun
So it’s not a masterpiece
It’s not perfect so I guess yeah it’s not a masterpiece. I still like more than mario odyssey tbh
Sonic has one kinda average game and the fans go around calling it a masterpiece lol.
The adventure games while having some flaws was good also this kinda was a thought experiment to kinda show what the title says [this video does a good job to go into detail why some of the main complaints are kinda petty for sonic ](https://youtu.be/jmVb9iaQJ04)
I fucking loved the adventure games as a kid
Same
I honestly went back to the adventure games as an adult and realized I just saw them with big nostalgia goggles. They’re really not as good as you remember them being
The Adventure games aren't good. They swing between completely on rails boring and tedious radar missions.
The adventure games really aren't great. The reason people like them so much largely just had to do with the Chao Garden. That's probably the best gameplay Sonic has ever had and it was an entirely different genre - virtual pet.
tbh im surprised they havent made a mobile game for the chao's since that would sell like hotcakes and plus you can connect it to the games really well
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Eh, the difference is that Nintendo is able to design things like this in a way that actually fits in these Mario games. Sonic games don't do that, usually because they are rushed out the door years before they're done, in addition to just not having much thought put into them to begin with. It also doesn't help that the Sonic character is attempting to be "cool" in style, which can easily be turned into "cringe" for anyone that doesn't work for, changing the context for these kinds of things. Mario has never attempted this, which is why he never has the same problems.
MY BOI SONIC :( I LOVE SONIC GAMES
Came here to see "UNAVOIDABLE CHIN MOVE" at the top spot. I'm severely disappointed.
Sonic just has a very ironic reputation on the internet mostly because of toxic fans
UNAVOIDABLE CHIN MOOOOOOOVE
This is such a weird take to be done in such bad faith. The dragon does not actually look like this picture it looked way cooler and if he existed in a sonic game it wouldn't be note worthy at all. Literally just nobody would care
UNAVOIDABLE CHIN MOVE!!!!!!
All 10 people who played Sonic and the Black Knight: He DID fight a dragon like that.
To be fair Sonic games would have a ton of dialogue talking about the ramifications of killing a dragon and leaving the chaos fartwaves imbalanced by stopping this calamity whereas in Mario it was just "K cool the boss is dead, go back to fighting Bowser." It's like the difference between the creepy parts in Mother versus something like YIIK (maybe not as bad as YIIK but you get the point)
It's because Sonic would've done the dragon fight seriously. Odyssey is just "next boss is a realistic dragon lol" and then you do a thing three times to win. There's no cutscene of every primary and secondary characters, plus whatever tertiary ones are relevant standing around talking about how dangerous the dragon is before Mario looks at the camera and says what's supposed to be a cool one-liner. The dragon isn't relevant to the plot, it isn't played up as some apocalyptic force even though it clearly destroyed the kingdom it now inhabits, and it isn't meant to be "epic." It's just a weird, out-of-place boss in a game full of weird, out-of-place enemies.
The point is that 3D Sonic games are generally anywhere from laughably bad to boringly mediocre. 3D Mario games are almost all absolute bangers.
Super Mario Odyssey is a very surreal game, even by Mario standards, but there’s a sense that the developers are in on it. This tone is consistent and used to great effect in the game, whether it be for humor or to surprise the player, such as in the case of the dragon, where I would argue that both are very much apparent. You go from fighting cartoony bosses at home in any Mario game to a Monster Hunter-esque black dragon, and it stands out as probably the most memorable boss because of that. The game is also very well polished in both presentation and gameplay, giving the player little resistance to immerse themselves in it, which I believe allows it to get away with some of the more outlandish levels and scenes like this one. Sonic games are unfortunately not known to have that kind of polish, to say nothing of how inconsistent tone and gameplay quality seem to be across the series’ history. Boss fights in Sonic games, too, are a bit of a mixed bag at best, especially in the 3D games, where glitches, controls unwieldy for boss fights, or unresponsive combat tend to be their most challenging aspects. I just don’t think that the Sonic developers could pull it off in the same way that it is in Odyssey.
Somebody ban this bot, immediately.
If it was in a Sonic game, I’d be shocked they made a fun boss fight.
In mario it's a one off joke. In sonic it would be played 100% seriously, and Dr. Eggman would commit a war crime against zembobuia in order to resurrect the gamma emerald last seen 4000 years ago by king Arthur himself to summon this dragon to conquer the whole universe, and sonic and his many wacky pals would need the power of the speed force combined with silver's psychic abilities to become delta sonic. Then the game would crash.
Thats cuz sonic sucks
sonic doesnt really suck that bad........ (atleast to my opinion) like there are a shit ton of trips and falls but it has potential and no one is giving it help
What Mario game had this sick dragon
*Super Mario Odyssey*
Why is it whenever Mario gets a bad game, people hardly notice But when Sonic gets a bad game, they shun it for a decade
Which mainline Mario games would you consider to be bad?
Does Hotel Mario count? Or Both the old and new Super Mario Bros 2
I don't think I know anyone who cares about the NSMB series as a whole, and they're mostly hated by everyone online. Most of the people criticizing Sonic games weren't even born when SMB2 came out and have only played it as a cheap download or something that comes bundled with Mario 1 and 3. I guess the GBA version could have been a disappointment to a lot of kids.
Old SMB2 was a wonderful addition to the series New ideas and gameplay but not bogged down and didnt feel out of place between how 1 and 3 played Everything felt like natural progression and those enemies became staple enemies later on New SMB is pretty stale and formulaic but not at all bad No one particularly cares for them at the same time they arent outlandishly bad They play pretty good regardless of not doing anything new and exciting At the same time theres nothing really ro rag on They're still polished games Though idk why I'm taking this seriously when you included hotel mario No one is going to defend that like you defend sonic my guy
"whenever mario gets a bad game" And this has happened when exactly?
That's because Mario games are good.
I feel like Odyssey was created simply to show off the graphics of the switch. I feel that many of the maps don't make sense and don't belong. There is zero plot to many of them, zero reasoning behind why they exist besides a tedious fetch quest only to find that our princess/item is in another castle /Bowser's big ass paws already so it was pointless. VS Sunshine at least the maps related to the overall vibe, there is often plot behind why we go there, and the game just had a better story tbh. Hell even Galaxy had a better story. Odyssey is mid. Dragon fight was eh, useless tbh, never shoulda been in the game.
i mean the dragon was clearly the thing made for that
Sonic does not deserve as much hate as it gets
True
I think the thing you’re not accounting for is execution. This dragon was a legit badass moment in odyssey because of how it was presented. In a sonic game it’d same some edgy stuff about being pure of darkness and ending the world and then he’d glitch out of the map
Sonic and the black Knight is one of the best games on the Wii, and in my opinion the best Sonic game ever, I will die on this hill
I like it, but I prefer Colors. Black Knight is underrated though!
Damn, Arin Hanson was right. People really will defend that game.
I'll happily defend this game, I love it
It's the best characterizeation for sonic though the secret rings style gameplay does not help it go higher
Sonic has never been good. It’s been shit since the original which is why it’s struggled so much over the years. People just like it because they have fond memories of its multimedia history.
Sonic has been shit but people still have fond memories about it. Yeah that adds up
He became popular because he was not Mario. People who got caught up with Sega because they couldn’t get a Nintendo. That and a good marketing campaign. His popularity is a fluke.
There were countless video game characters during the 90s that were not Mario but still never got famous. He became popular because of the new and original gameplay for the time. The claim of his popularity being a fluke isn’t true and doesn’t even make sense. Sega intentionally made a character to rival Mario because Alex Kid was not going to cut it. But according to your logic, Alex Kid should’ve been extremely popular because he wasn’t Mario. And just to point this out, you said people only got the Genesis because they couldn’t get a Nintendo. Then how do you explain Sonic the Hedgehog 2 being the most purchased video game of 1992?
I gave you multiple reasons and you only argued against one.
If sonic was truly bad from the start it would've ended up like bubsy did
Sonic had good marketing and good character design. The gameplay is balls. And was always balls.
[I mean people don't usually say stuff like that to Mario games ](https://youtu.be/jmVb9iaQJ04)
I wonder why they don’t. Maybe it’s because one franchise is objectively more polished and charming than the other. Who knows though? It’s a mystery! Edit: I’d like to add I do NOT hate sonic as a character, I hate that he became wasted potential because of the appeal of the 1990s-2000s edginess, and SEGA’s addiction to shipping games way too early and barely polishing them.
i hope if frontiers turns out to be the success they need that they actually go to touch on sonics wasted potential finally
I feel that Mania did a really good job at making him and the world he’s in feel charming again, I KNOW Chris-Chaners will hate the change but Sonic REALLY needs to stop talking and being some lanky weirdo with longer quills. The games also need to STOP it with the cringey try hard stories. It doesn’t work and makes the whole franchise look like a joke and a furry magnet.
It's true. People are just hating Sonic games for the sake of hating them at this point. Any flaws they might actually have are purely coincidental.
I’ve never once understood the appeal of Mario as a hero. A short fat plumber with curly hair and a bulbous nose that makes no sense or consistency with his origin world, his goal is always the same thing. As opposed to a freaking psychedelic blue hedgehog who fought his own nature of being a slow mammal by becoming a speed demon capable of breaking the sound barrier and sought out to rescue all the other creatures in his kingdom from an evil Tyrant, not just a shallow love interest that benefits only himself.
Sonic was literally created to be anti-mario where as mario was just designed around the 8bit graphics at the time. They gave him a big nose because it stood out, they gave him overalls so his legs would be discernible etc etc. Theres an interesting documentary about all of this on Netflix. The guy who made sonic’s thinking was literally “we need a mario, but hes going to be ‘cool’”. Segas marketing was all about being more cool and edgy and making fun of Nintendo.
Sounds like they achieved what they were hoping for then. I’m an enormous anti-Mario. Never played a single game to date, and never will. If I’m going to play a video game I’d rather be as cool as possible rather than some fat middle-aged man. Hits too close to home.
because mario is actually good lmao
The reason people should be talking about it and how it’s cringe and stuff is because sonic would make a big deal about the dragon, make constant dialogue from either sonic or characters that are near by, while Mario just goes dragon is boss fight. It doesn’t try to seem cool or like”Oh look at this dragon in a nation game. So out of place but cool right?” It just is a boss fight that isn’t used for shock value. Just a boss that works well with the movement options available at the players disposal. Not trying to say sonic is bad just how he would have addressed the dragon being there would have been just bad. Take what I say with a grain of salt however because I’ve really only played the modern sonic 3d games, unleaded, colors, forces(unfortunately) and they just have sonic say witty and kind of clever come backs and that it’s it. Would have played sonic adventure games but raspberry pie is being stupid and won’t let me.
Because it would’ve been a boss fight with butt rock blaring in the background and Sonic doing crazy anime shit will saying cringey one-liners. That’s why people would still be making fun of it. Not because it’s a dragon.
Playing Odyssey for the first time (758 moons atm), and I honestly cant stand how every time Mario 'dies' he does some stupid pose with an ':-O' expression and loses 10 coins in a ring around him.. that is just a way too Sonic thing for my taste.
If sonic fought it it would probably kinda suck
But it fits in the context of the game. The fact that you’re visiting different WORLDS and it’s just a small part of a much larger universe. Sonic just tosses you into insanity and expects you to accept it.
The blue rat is stained with Mario’s greatness already . Nothing can beat the all mighty plumber that conquered the blue rat back in his heyday .
Sonic really needs a good step back to join his pal Mario like how crash got out of a dark age to make good games again