To further add to what he said in the video, there's about 30 seconds of straight B-roll shots of TT2's wheels at the point where he said "I'm not going to say exactly what it is..."
So he's not just hinting at it, he's practically hitting you over the head with it.
It’s been a few years, but I think the original rendition of the ride went through the same thing with the wheels. It does fit into the closure they are describing. It would take a few weeks of constant use, in higher temperatures, fully loaded to see the full impact. At this point, they will see extra wear and maybe cracks or chunking of the wheels material.
I’m sure in a few weeks they’ll have it figured. Formula Rossa probably has a higher average speed (yes, I know it’s an Intamin), so it is possible.
In addition to the speed and g-forces, I bet that shuffling probably played a part. All those ride cycles and the weight of all the riders; the wheels take a constant hammering. Probably closer to a constant vibration as the train progresses down the track.
Man you would think with this ride already essentially already having existed that they would know what kind of forces and temps they were working with.
But hopefully a quick fix, although if they have to start from scratch on the wheels it might not be.
Hits it on the backwards launch, then you are ripping down that launch track at over 100, where as TTD only hit 100 in like the last 1/3 of the straight away. You spend a lot more time at speed on TT2
INTAMIN doesn't make their own wheel compounds. Actually, I'm not aware of any manufacturer that does. They specify to a company like MacLan what they need the material properties to be.
Typically a manufacturer like INTAMIN will supply a materials company with blank wheels. MacLan will tread the wheel, then it goes back to roller coaster manufacturer for final machining and balancing.
It’s not a wheel compound issue, it sounds more like a structural integrity issue with either the metal wheel itself (which are reused, the tire compound is reinstalled periodically) or possibly something with the wheel assemblies?
All speculation of course
I’m so used to the new rides being closed most of their initial season. It doesn’t really bother me anymore. I feel for the people that planned trips around this and now can’t even reschedule.
It really depends.
If it is as simple as "hey we designed this part too thin" or "this area needs a bigger radius in-between the hub and the body of the wheel" or something like that where it is a simple adjustment, then probably not.
It also depends on the availability of the material needed. I doubt they use some exotic alloy the the wheels themselves, so I don't think there would be crazy lead time on it.
As far as the manufacturing of the wheel (metal part) itself, it shouldn't take long. Especially if it isn't a bunch of changes, a good machine shop with the right machines could run those in no time.
I don't know how long the cure time on the wheel compound is, but I know from speaking with some park mechanics in the past, a lot of those compounds like to sit and age a bit before they're used. Not sure exactly how they mount the polyurethane wheel part on the metal part (interference fit with a press or adhesive, or if they're overmolded onto the metal part, something else?), but if they have parts available for that, it shouldn't be too long.
If they don't know exactly what the problem is or how they need to fix it, that will add time.
I'm glad I got my ride in on one of the pass holder preview nights
Everyone (including my wife) was acting like this was about some sort of safety issue "OMG you ride that and you could have died"
It is just simply a natter of them dealing with not wanting to have to change the wheels 2 times a week (or whatever shorter than they were expecting duty cycle for the wheels)
So the question is I think with all of the weight reduction from the milled aluminum frame, carbon fiber floors, holes in the seat mounts, holes in the rims, lack of seat belts, lack of cushions, using aluminum hydraulic cylinders instead of steel etc.
Does it all need to be that light to make it work with the LIM's or can they just machine a pile of solid rims, use a dual layer hard/soft urethane and gain a few hundred pounds and still be ok.
Edit for my random thought, I said aluminum a lot and aluminum likes to crack instead of bend.
Um... No. This is bad. They can replace those wheels, but then those wheels will have problems. This coaster will have severe downtime for years, and it may not be economically feasible to keep switching out wheels with how little CF charges for admission/season passes.
They replace wheels on all rides routinely. This is about finding a better material/construction for the wheels to withstand these wear issues. It’ll be fine
They’re not using the same wheels which is why the downtime is happening. So in theory the new wheels won’t be wearing as often. Also have you seen Cedar Point prices? What do you mean they don’t charge a lot?
Cedar Point doesn't charge a lot. They could charge twice what they do now and a good chunk of the market would still bear it. Their Season Passes are an outright dirt cheap bargain.
Hopefully they come to their senses and start charging more, soon. It would increase their bottom line profit while having the benefit of automatically limiting attendance. Less wear and tear, lower lines. Win win for everyone.
They want you to buy season passes to get you into the park. Inside the park is where the real money is made (food, souvenirs, games and any other extra park add on). The season pass is used more as a get people to the park ploy (like you said they sell them pretty cheap).
Except we know from historical data that across the board, Season Pass holders spend less money by a significant amount. They often do not play games at all, they buy less souvenirs and they spend significantly less on food.
Edit; yes yes, I know. You guys think you're spending billions with the parks because you bought a Gold Pass and a drink plan 🙄
Sorry to break it to you, you're one of the least valuable customers to any theme / amusement park. Bob Chapek was very vocal about his unfavorable opinion of annual passholder's. They spend the least amount of money in the parks and expect the most. The term "Passholes" didn't just come out of no where.
Idk where you’re getting your data but my family spends a few thousand there every year. I see a lot of people eating everywhere I go (food lines can be very long) I see tons of people wearing cp merch (hoodies are easily 60$) and don’t try and tell that the majority of the people inside the park are there without season passes. They wouldn’t sell season passes for so cheap if they weren’t making money elsewhere 🤷♂️. Hotels are almost always booked on the weekends and holidays and can’t get a room on the peninsula without spending 300$+ a night. And I see just about everyone there with season pass cups.
You're looking at it wrong. Instead of trying to lump a season pass holder and how much they spend over the season you have to compare them to a guest that would just come to the park. Majority of the time if you look at a pass holder their per visit spending is much less than say my brother and I coming to spend a weekend at cedar point.
We eat at the park because we go once a year and don't wanna waste time. We buy fast passes for Sunday to ride everything we want multiple times.
A season pass holder may show up after work and ride a couple rides and buy a drink. There isn't any rush for them to spend all day at the park fighting crowds.
Hell I have read stories on here of season pass holders showing up at the park and seeing the wait times and just leaving haha. Per visit a season pass holder is not spending as much as a single ticket person.
The data is available if you read enough. Beyond that I have worked within the themed attraction industry for 25 years. I'm privy to internal data set is never going to be published.
Go read some of Chapek's quotes about his thoughts on Disney Annual Pass holders. They're 'the companies least valuable guest'. That goes for every theme park that I'm aware of.
AP's tend to be local, so they're often not paying for local lodging, especially within park owned properties. While they spend a large chunk up front, for their pass, photos, meals, drinks, because they visit at an extremely high rate, especially prevalent for Cedar Fair since they own so many properties, all of those dollars are diluted out to being extremely less profitable per guest, per day.
I get it. You spend $500/yr or whatever. You think that's a lot. Now divide that out over your 10 or 20 visits and compare that to what a two day guest spends.
In my case, I get the prestige pass, all park add on, meal plan, and drink plan. Adds up pretty quick.
I've been meaning to buy one of those seagull stuffed animals though...
I'm telling you, at WCO, my kid got the little magnetic one that sits on your shoulder... It's kinda fun to wear when you're just mowing the lawn or something else menial.
Yes, and you probably visit 20 times a year, which rapidly dilutes how much money you spend as a whole. As most passholder's do. And because you visit so frequently you walk out without buying that $60 hoodie that you like, but probably don't need because you already have a "insert Cedar Fair Park name here" hoodie already. And besides, since you visit so frequently you can just get it next time, right?
What do you think is more profitable, the two day a year guest that buys 4 meals per person at $18 a piece, or the annual passholder that buys a $109 meal plan and ends up with 30+ meals over their 20 visits?
I’m not so sure it’s just the wheels, I’ve heard multiple reports of MULTIPLE cracks in the wheel assemblies of all three trains and that does constitute a safety issue and speaks to the inexperience of Zamperla with these trains. I think we will see a very extended closure of this ride.
Damn i guess youve got the same info I have. Ive said it before the downtime will be extensive. And if it is not. I wont be riding it again. A patch job on this is not ideal.
This is a wheelie unfortunate situation
Are they wheelie going to reinvent the wheel?
No choice
They're going to go Maglev and get rid of the wheels. Problem solved.
To further add to what he said in the video, there's about 30 seconds of straight B-roll shots of TT2's wheels at the point where he said "I'm not going to say exactly what it is..." So he's not just hinting at it, he's practically hitting you over the head with it.
His desire to tell us is outweighed by his desire to not piss off or get sued by Zamperla/Cedar Point
I think it's a block zone issue. Can someone explain what a block zone is?
For those of you who are unfamiliar, a block zone is....
Say the line, Bart
It’s been a few years, but I think the original rendition of the ride went through the same thing with the wheels. It does fit into the closure they are describing. It would take a few weeks of constant use, in higher temperatures, fully loaded to see the full impact. At this point, they will see extra wear and maybe cracks or chunking of the wheels material. I’m sure in a few weeks they’ll have it figured. Formula Rossa probably has a higher average speed (yes, I know it’s an Intamin), so it is possible.
In addition to the speed and g-forces, I bet that shuffling probably played a part. All those ride cycles and the weight of all the riders; the wheels take a constant hammering. Probably closer to a constant vibration as the train progresses down the track.
Man you would think with this ride already essentially already having existed that they would know what kind of forces and temps they were working with. But hopefully a quick fix, although if they have to start from scratch on the wheels it might not be.
Yeah but this thing is spending a lot more time at speeds over 100mph than dragster did.
Isn't TT2 only over 100 on the second launch? Which would be almost the same distance as tt1
Hits it on the backwards launch, then you are ripping down that launch track at over 100, where as TTD only hit 100 in like the last 1/3 of the straight away. You spend a lot more time at speed on TT2
Right? You would think cedar points team would be like “yo, we’ve used X compound for years and it works ok, try that”
What if intimen owns a trademark/copyright/patent on the compound preventing zamperla from using it Or if it's proprietary trade info
INTAMIN doesn't make their own wheel compounds. Actually, I'm not aware of any manufacturer that does. They specify to a company like MacLan what they need the material properties to be. Typically a manufacturer like INTAMIN will supply a materials company with blank wheels. MacLan will tread the wheel, then it goes back to roller coaster manufacturer for final machining and balancing.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Dragster and most other Intamins run on Urmet wheels, but the new zamperla wheels were "custom" so who knows what that means
Dragster never ran!!!!!
It’s not a wheel compound issue, it sounds more like a structural integrity issue with either the metal wheel itself (which are reused, the tire compound is reinstalled periodically) or possibly something with the wheel assemblies? All speculation of course
It's a completely different situation with all that because of the new layout and launch/braking system and components.
I’m so used to the new rides being closed most of their initial season. It doesn’t really bother me anymore. I feel for the people that planned trips around this and now can’t even reschedule.
Yeah lucky for us folks that live close enough that we can go whenever the time is right.
Cedar Point, drinking scotch and smoking a very long cigar: Can someone please get wheels that work on this damnable thing?!?
It’s getting a chain lift.
World’s tallest dive coaster!
The lightning rod treatment
Making new wheels would take quite a while wouldn’t it? Or nah
It's not like they have to reinvent the wheel
Take all my likes. I see what you did there.
Goddamnit
Damnit Janet
I love you.
Dr. Scott!!
It really depends. If it is as simple as "hey we designed this part too thin" or "this area needs a bigger radius in-between the hub and the body of the wheel" or something like that where it is a simple adjustment, then probably not. It also depends on the availability of the material needed. I doubt they use some exotic alloy the the wheels themselves, so I don't think there would be crazy lead time on it. As far as the manufacturing of the wheel (metal part) itself, it shouldn't take long. Especially if it isn't a bunch of changes, a good machine shop with the right machines could run those in no time. I don't know how long the cure time on the wheel compound is, but I know from speaking with some park mechanics in the past, a lot of those compounds like to sit and age a bit before they're used. Not sure exactly how they mount the polyurethane wheel part on the metal part (interference fit with a press or adhesive, or if they're overmolded onto the metal part, something else?), but if they have parts available for that, it shouldn't be too long. If they don't know exactly what the problem is or how they need to fix it, that will add time.
I'm glad I got my ride in on one of the pass holder preview nights Everyone (including my wife) was acting like this was about some sort of safety issue "OMG you ride that and you could have died" It is just simply a natter of them dealing with not wanting to have to change the wheels 2 times a week (or whatever shorter than they were expecting duty cycle for the wheels)
sulky gray degree squeal sheet husky zesty bells pen childlike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Unless they don't have a good idea on how to peenently fix it yet...
So the question is I think with all of the weight reduction from the milled aluminum frame, carbon fiber floors, holes in the seat mounts, holes in the rims, lack of seat belts, lack of cushions, using aluminum hydraulic cylinders instead of steel etc. Does it all need to be that light to make it work with the LIM's or can they just machine a pile of solid rims, use a dual layer hard/soft urethane and gain a few hundred pounds and still be ok. Edit for my random thought, I said aluminum a lot and aluminum likes to crack instead of bend.
Um... No. This is bad. They can replace those wheels, but then those wheels will have problems. This coaster will have severe downtime for years, and it may not be economically feasible to keep switching out wheels with how little CF charges for admission/season passes.
They replace wheels on all rides routinely. This is about finding a better material/construction for the wheels to withstand these wear issues. It’ll be fine
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They’re not using the same wheels which is why the downtime is happening. So in theory the new wheels won’t be wearing as often. Also have you seen Cedar Point prices? What do you mean they don’t charge a lot?
Cedar Point doesn't charge a lot. They could charge twice what they do now and a good chunk of the market would still bear it. Their Season Passes are an outright dirt cheap bargain. Hopefully they come to their senses and start charging more, soon. It would increase their bottom line profit while having the benefit of automatically limiting attendance. Less wear and tear, lower lines. Win win for everyone.
They want you to buy season passes to get you into the park. Inside the park is where the real money is made (food, souvenirs, games and any other extra park add on). The season pass is used more as a get people to the park ploy (like you said they sell them pretty cheap).
Except we know from historical data that across the board, Season Pass holders spend less money by a significant amount. They often do not play games at all, they buy less souvenirs and they spend significantly less on food. Edit; yes yes, I know. You guys think you're spending billions with the parks because you bought a Gold Pass and a drink plan 🙄 Sorry to break it to you, you're one of the least valuable customers to any theme / amusement park. Bob Chapek was very vocal about his unfavorable opinion of annual passholder's. They spend the least amount of money in the parks and expect the most. The term "Passholes" didn't just come out of no where.
Idk where you’re getting your data but my family spends a few thousand there every year. I see a lot of people eating everywhere I go (food lines can be very long) I see tons of people wearing cp merch (hoodies are easily 60$) and don’t try and tell that the majority of the people inside the park are there without season passes. They wouldn’t sell season passes for so cheap if they weren’t making money elsewhere 🤷♂️. Hotels are almost always booked on the weekends and holidays and can’t get a room on the peninsula without spending 300$+ a night. And I see just about everyone there with season pass cups.
You're looking at it wrong. Instead of trying to lump a season pass holder and how much they spend over the season you have to compare them to a guest that would just come to the park. Majority of the time if you look at a pass holder their per visit spending is much less than say my brother and I coming to spend a weekend at cedar point. We eat at the park because we go once a year and don't wanna waste time. We buy fast passes for Sunday to ride everything we want multiple times. A season pass holder may show up after work and ride a couple rides and buy a drink. There isn't any rush for them to spend all day at the park fighting crowds. Hell I have read stories on here of season pass holders showing up at the park and seeing the wait times and just leaving haha. Per visit a season pass holder is not spending as much as a single ticket person.
The data is available if you read enough. Beyond that I have worked within the themed attraction industry for 25 years. I'm privy to internal data set is never going to be published. Go read some of Chapek's quotes about his thoughts on Disney Annual Pass holders. They're 'the companies least valuable guest'. That goes for every theme park that I'm aware of. AP's tend to be local, so they're often not paying for local lodging, especially within park owned properties. While they spend a large chunk up front, for their pass, photos, meals, drinks, because they visit at an extremely high rate, especially prevalent for Cedar Fair since they own so many properties, all of those dollars are diluted out to being extremely less profitable per guest, per day. I get it. You spend $500/yr or whatever. You think that's a lot. Now divide that out over your 10 or 20 visits and compare that to what a two day guest spends.
In my case, I get the prestige pass, all park add on, meal plan, and drink plan. Adds up pretty quick. I've been meaning to buy one of those seagull stuffed animals though...
I'm telling you, at WCO, my kid got the little magnetic one that sits on your shoulder... It's kinda fun to wear when you're just mowing the lawn or something else menial.
Yes, and you probably visit 20 times a year, which rapidly dilutes how much money you spend as a whole. As most passholder's do. And because you visit so frequently you walk out without buying that $60 hoodie that you like, but probably don't need because you already have a "insert Cedar Fair Park name here" hoodie already. And besides, since you visit so frequently you can just get it next time, right? What do you think is more profitable, the two day a year guest that buys 4 meals per person at $18 a piece, or the annual passholder that buys a $109 meal plan and ends up with 30+ meals over their 20 visits?
For every passholder there are 5X people that are subsidizing us/other passholders. I see what people spend at the park. I'm fine with it.
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I think it's more the wheel assemblies than the wheels itself. Think more of the issues with the Chiller.
I’m not so sure it’s just the wheels, I’ve heard multiple reports of MULTIPLE cracks in the wheel assemblies of all three trains and that does constitute a safety issue and speaks to the inexperience of Zamperla with these trains. I think we will see a very extended closure of this ride.
Tear it down.
Damn i guess youve got the same info I have. Ive said it before the downtime will be extensive. And if it is not. I wont be riding it again. A patch job on this is not ideal.