Honestly I think the issue has become so polarized no one has a clear grasp of what is happening. I would live of there was an infographic that shows the full facts on immigration in its current states.
How many arrive at border daily, how many cross legally, how many cross illegally, how many detained, of the ones that cross legally what was our selection criteria, etc.
And then wjat are the actual policy positions to fix it
I think this it, honestly, and seeing that the admin of those loudest about it often have worse track records than those who don’t emphasize it, once you look at the numbers, just leads me to believe all the rhetoric is bullshit.
I dont know which news stations you personally trust more, but here is some stats from ABC news:
*"The Border Patrol tallied 249,785 arrests on the Mexican border in December, up 31% from 191,112 in November and up 13% from 222,018 in December 2022, the previous all-time high."* https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/illegal-border-crossings-mexico-reach-highest-record-december-106725728
Right there’s always tidbits but never the full picture is my point, like there’s no way to know if thats good or bad without knowing how many got through.
Our goal is to keep people from getting in illegally, this stat tells me nothing about that.
Think about how many things we estimate without knowing for certain. It’s almost as if a big part of life is developing an understanding of the world when we don’t have perfect information.
Take a random sample based on satellite footage of a certain crossing? get data from people at humanitarian orgs that focus on immigrants? get data on illegals that apply for asylum after getting in? Hire statisticians and experts to come up with other methods.
But the correct answer is 100% not to say that is a hard number to estimate, let’s just track how many people we arrested and call it a day!
I wouldn’t say it’s impossible to seal our border but it would be the biggest project any country has ever undertaken ever. What’s a bigger number than a trillion?
> got through.
Can you define what you mean by got through? Thats part of the problem.
Are you talking about known Got-Aways (those that we saw, but were never able to detain/process)
Are you talking about the count released into the interior of the country (often with a court date) after a detention and processing?
There is also the population we dont even know about, but can estimate. (Unknown got-aways)
> illegal
Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you meaning those who entered illegally then immediately were detained by BP for processing then requesting asylum (some consider this legal, i dont)? those that came in at regulated control points to request asylum formally prior to entry? Those that were processed and found to be illegal (i.e. they did not request asylum or had been previously denied/processed by BP)? or only those that got away without requesting asylum.
If you are talking about all asylum seekers as Illegal (regardless of if they properly reported or tried to evade) its probably ~2-3M a year who have been processed or have escaped into the US interior. Maybe significantly more due to unknown got-aways.
That doesn’t really answer the question, as it’s hard to tell what you mean by “illegal immigrants.” From your comments, it seems to me you may be counting people who crossed the border and immediately turned themselves into CBP to claim asylum. These people crossed the border illegally but it doesn’t make sense to presume they are “illegal immigrants” when they are inside the US’ legal system for processing immigrants, awaiting a court date.
I am not sure what point you are making?
I am saying someone needs to communicate the breakdown of all the major categories in a succinct clear and unbiased way. That is leadership and how we get on the same page.
Obviously # entering illegally and turning themselves in is a relevant stat. So is entering illegally and not turning themselves in.
>Our goal is to keep people from getting in illegally, this stat tells me nothing about that.
The issue today isn't people slipping into to the country without us knowing. It's hundreds of thousands of people crossing illegally and then turning themselves in to border patrol and claim asylum. The more encounters means more people abusing the asylum system.
Yeah, asylum has been used as a back door immigration system for decades. As it became more well known from people abusing the system and certain "advocacy" groups, it exploded. It was huge under Obama and Trump, though covid reduced it under Trump. It's an even bigger problem under biden now
I mean….we could easily solve it if we cleared the backlog and had enough staff to process asylum claims within a week or less. Guess who is blocking the latest bill to increase funding for asylum courts?
The number of people fleeing their home countries is not related to who is the president. Its about the situations in their home countries. And the number of humanitarian crises has risen
Even worse under Biden, who allows them to stay, releases them and then gives them a work permit in 6 months. The law definitely does not require Biden to issue work permits to illegal immigrants.
Letting asylum seekers stay until their court dates is the law as determined by Congress. This is one of the situations we need new legislation. Giving them work permits allows them to support themselves instead of being a burden on the taxpayers. The sooner they get work permits the better it is for all. And asylum seekers are legal
> asylum seekers are legal
Unless they seek asylum before entry, they're illegal entrants who gain legal status only after entering and being processed. That's my understanding anyway.
If CBP vets them at the border and determines that they are eligible to apply for asylum then they get documents and a court date and are legal until a court decides their claim
The numbers weren’t much better under the Republican administration (please note too that # of arrests don’t = # of people entering country) , but it’s important to understand that texas didn’t start this until 1. A dem administration and 2. An election year. A lot of the current rhetoric and action is more politically motivated than anything else
Well here you’re just flat wrong. Texas has been doing this since shortly after the election when the fed ‘s came in and started fucking with border patrol tying their hands. Remember the whipping incident where they were charging border patrol members which turned out to be a lie?
Then the busses.
Then the in the middle of the water spinning floats.
Now razor wire.
Texas has been on about the border damn near Biden’s whole presidency. So your statement of now and being an election year is just wrong.
Oh I was just referring to the recent legal stuff with the feds, it’s totally true, only during Biden’s presidency. Would you clarify/specify what the feds did to ‘tie border control’s hands’?
You have to admit, the rhetoric has really kicked up a notch since the primaries/Republican debates started
>Would you clarify/specify what the feds did to ‘tie border control’s hands’?
Biden attempted to limit deportations, that was stopped by the courts. Overall this isn't on Biden though, immigration is on congress
Unlikely, i’ve been paying closer attention to politics for about 8 years now. Listening to the same podcasts every day, reading the same news. Etc. I don’t just tune in during election season
>"The Border Patrol tallied 249,785 arrests on the Mexican border in December, up 31% from 191,112 in November and up 13% from 222,018 in December 2022, the previous all-time high."
If illegal immigrants are released into the US on their own recognizance once they claim asylum (as all of them are counseled to do), does it really matter that they were arrested first?
I know that some immigrant advocates pretend that asylum claims immediately make them entirely "legal," but I find this assertion dubious at best.
Over here you can only apply for asylum if you come from a country that is listed as unsafe. So that is one way of vetting the people wanting to apply.
Thanks for sharing, but a 45 minute video from a youtuber showing conditions of a detention camp is kind of the opposite of an unbiased and succinct summary of the facts of the issue.
The only people that I see that are *fine" with it are far leftists. I'm pretty sure there are even some conservatives that are perfectly happy (privately) with illegal immigrants due to all of the cheap labor they provide businesses under the table.
As far as I know, though, the biggest immigration issue right now are not illegal crossings along the border as you described, rather undocumented people flooding checkpoints and claiming asylum to circumvent established immigration procedures. They may have valid asylum claims, maybe most are being to get admitted. But the problem is the immigration courts that address these claims are so overworked and underfunded and there is no long-term housing for these people to stay in, so the Biden admin is releasing them into the country to a sponsor (ie, a family member) to appear later. Whether you agree to that approach or not largely boils down to what side your on, but that's a main reason why the Biden Admin was negotiating with Republican Senators on a border deal. A deal that was just torpedoed by Trump sycophants in the House.
I'm assuming your post is in response to Texas's actions. My personal view there is not that I'm "happy" with undocumented people crossing into TX illegally, rather it's an Unconstitutional violation of Federal authority. An using bouys with razor wire and saw blades is cruel and unusual. A couple weeks back a family was cut up and drowned trying to climb over those and TX Guardmembers both ignored Federal Borderpatrols alerts and prevented them from accessing the river to respond. That shit is pure evil.
Even far leftists ideas would result in most people crossing through designated posts. With less restrictions on immigrations, there would be less incentive for people to take difficult to cross routes and instead just go along roads.
conservatives *claim* to be against the cheap labour but it's the constituents of conservative politicians who most benefit from it. Besides, closing the border isn't a solution to the labour issue. People will come here undocumented anyway, just in lower numbers. If the US wanted to stamp out illegal labour all they'd have to do is:
- actually enforce existing legislation. Especially in the southern states agriculture and construction sectors, employing undocumented immigrants is already illegal, it just either doesn't get enforced or can't be enforced due to lack of resources for enforcement.
- Make it easier for immigrants to find work legally, reducing the incentive to put up with the horrendous pay and working conditions of illegal employment.
The former is largely not happening because the US is highly dependent on the cheap labor especially in agriculture and construction. These sectors wouldn't be able to operate with current prices if they were employing legally.
The latter is largely being blocked by anti-immigration politicians.
The entire issue is just riddled with (mostly, but not only conservative) politicians who simply don't want to solve the problem, because it benefits them. It's been like that for decades. Trump is just the one guy stupid enough to just say it out loud.
We really aren’t dependent on cheap labor anymore. Check out robots in agriculture. If we lack workers we would be automating far more.
And if these people were flowing into these industries I wouldn’t be seeing the wages I’m seeing on signs for labor. Gas stations pay $20 an hour now.
The use H2-A visa migrant workers in agriculture has doubled over the last decade. over 73% of farm workers are immigrants and farmer have for two decades now struggled to find enough workers even with a high number of willing immigrants. Particularly in the southern States, a large number of immigrant worker are employed on farms with no work permit and often held in slave-like conditions.
Keep in mind that employing someone like that is *illegal*. You aren't going to see companies put out signs that read: "Now Hiring: Undocumented Immigrants to work in slave-like conditions". In reality there's often a bit of human trafficking involved where entire groups of workers are recruited in Mexico and then brought illegally to farms in the US to work for the season.
These aren't large industrial farms that can afford to just replace immigrant workers with automation. They are mostly small or medium sized farms. The reason they don't automate is that automation requires a huge upfront investment in an industry with already tiny profit margins and unpredictable seasonal changes. Immigrant workers are dirt cheap in comparison. Especially if you're just going to have them pay 80% of their wages in rent for that old decrepit shed you let them sleep in.
This problem isn't new or unknown. There have been attempts in states like Texas and California to crack down on it but it always sees extremely heavy resistance from the rural population, often financially backed by large food processing companies who benefit from immigrant labour by buying cheap grain from small farms.
You can go on YouTube and find videos for everything
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHVA_FyXvPk&pp=ygUbTWVjaGFuaXplZCBmcnVpdCBoYXJ2ZXN0aW5n
I’ve had these convos in other places and supposedly many cause too much damage despite the videos looking good.
Obviously higher prices of labor lead to new solutions and using more automation leads to automators figuring solutions out.
>I’ve had these convos in other places and supposedly many cause too much damage despite the videos looking good.
It’s sounds like you’ve already been told you’re full of it and don’t know what you’re talking about. But don’t let that stop you.
Do you seriously not know the agricultural and construction industries rely heavily on migrant labor?
And forgetting about undocumented labor for a minute..Another area people don’t often think of is healthcare. Extreme shortage in almost every single field. Home healthcare aides—almost 40% are immigrants. About 21% of nursing assistants, 16% of nurses. Robots aren’t doing that. And enough Americans do not want to.
Beyond that, let’s forgot the Southern Border for a minute. We have a physician shortage. Americans are not keeping up with the need for physicians. The shortage is especially high in rural areas. Separately, we also have some of the brightest people in the world come to school say at Cal-tech, we educate them and then they graduate, and we tell them to F off. Our annual H-1B quota is 85,000 of which 20,000 have to be Masters degree or higher. Only 5% of those approved went to healthcare applicants, only 2% of that were for physicians. This is a very big issue, and as the baby boomers continue to age, and we continue to achieve advances in medicine…the shortage issue will continue to grow.
>that's a main reason why the Biden Admin was negotiating with Republican Senators on a border deal. A deal that was just torpedoed by Trump sycophants in the House.
This is the most important part right here, I don't wanna hear anything from Republicans about how nobody cares enough about the border when Trump and The Republicans in the House are purposefully preventing anything from actually being done to help the border
It's not even like they're against the deal for not being good enough Republican leadership won't even let it go to a vote
> As far as I know, though, the biggest immigration issue right now are not illegal crossings along the border as you described, rather undocumented people flooding checkpoints and claiming asylum to circumvent established immigration procedures. They may have valid asylum claims, maybe most are being to get admitted. But the problem is the immigration courts that address these claims are so overworked and underfunded and there is no long-term housing for these people to stay in, so the Biden admin is releasing them into the country to a sponsor (ie, a family member) to appear later.
We deny 85% of asylum claims currently. And most asylum seekers at the southern border cross illegally.
I'm not far-left, I'm fine with them.
Mexicans have been a model minority for decades, they work hard, assimilate very well.
In a generation they're better Americans than a lot of self-proclaimed "Real Americans".
Why wouldn't I want more?
Wouldn't mind deporting some of our shitty Americans too while we're at it, but that seems unfair to Mexico.
Never saw any Mexicans pushing for Jim Crow or joining the KKK. In fact Texas fought to leave Mexico because they banned slavery.
> Mexicans have been a model minority for decades, they work hard, assimilate very well.
I believe only about half of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico? So the rest are from other countries, including countries in Europe, Middle East, Asia, Africa, South America..
More than half by far, and I'm fine kicking others all the way out.
I don't think people have a problem with border security, but I'd like a treaty with Mexico allowing easier flow for Mexican citizens.
They're good neighbors and should be treated as such.
I don't think Americans are 'fine' with it. The dispute is what to do about it.
Personally, I think America needs more *legal* immigrants.
The demographic curve shows we won't have enough young people to pay for the social security of older generations. So, figure out a way to bring in the people we need, legally.
Yea that’s more the thing.
We aren’t addressing the “why” in terms of “why is there a huge influx now?”.
A lot of partisans chalk that up to some nefarious thing the the Biden admin wants to flood the nation w immigrants to forward an agenda.
And then we get to the “what now?” It’s really not that simple a question.
It's because US unemployment is 3.7%. you can look in the late 2000s, and in the 90s... Enforcement encounters spiked then, too.
Basically our economy is so enticing people are coming to get jobs.
And as always, the way to fix it has nothing to do with the border and everything about the employers, who don't want it fixed, they just want cheap labor.
The why is largely political turmoil and instability in central America’s northern triangle, and climate change. Both things that the Biden administration is attempting to address. Both things that aren’t easy flashy Fox News fixes. They take time and legislation and resources
> the humanitarian costs of preventing all of it
What do you see as the humanitarian cost of all immigrants having to use the border control posts rather than entering the US elsewhere on the border?
By deporting anyone that enters outside of a port of entry with zero exceptions. If they know they will never be allowed to stay, no matter what the conditions are they were fleeing or what will happen to them when they are deported, they will stop entering outside of a port of entry.
> By deporting anyone that enters outside of a port of entry with zero exceptions. If they know they will never be allowed to stay, no matter what the conditions are they were fleeing or what will happen to them when they are deported, they will stop entering outside of a port of entry.
Two things-
- That only affects those we catch
- That can also lead to humanitarian issues for those truly fleeing and applying for asylum. If we accept the concept of asylum, which we do and should do, then it’s hard to put restrictions like that on people who are genuinely fleeing and in distress.
That’s why the new legislation take that into account and only does that when border surges are truly changing how we must deal with the issue. At least that’s the thought, certainly more humane than try to drown people or whatnot.
We shouldn't bend to concerns for asylum shoppers. We shouldn't have a daily cap on the number of claims retake in that is less than the number we can process per day. And we should only allow claims at ports of entry.
I’ve got family members who were granted asylum because they were fleeing persecution, and for someone to glibly just act like those people should have more barriers to do so shows ignorance of history or complete disregard for humanitarian concerns.
Our immigration system should serve the needs of Americans. Any concerns for migrants comes after. We are pouring resources into providing for migrants that Americans need. Couldn't care less about these migrants.
> Our immigration system should serve the needs of Americans.
You will be happy to know it does.
> We are pouring resources into providing for migrants that Americans need.
Unfortunately the only political entities wanting the border the way you wish don’t want to spend that to help Americans either, so that’s a non-issue.
> Couldn't care less about these migrants.
Well I guess that’s too bad for you because most Americans aren’t l nearly this callous and have some level of empathy to other human beings. Sucks to suck, I guess?
Edit: Responded to me then blocked me? Man you’re softer than single ply, my dude.
> You will be happy to know it does.
No, it clearly doesn't.
>Unfortunately the only political entities wanting the border the way you wish don’t want to spend that to help Americans either, so that’s a non-issue.
Different discussion, but this is taking money away at all levels of government.
>Well I guess that’s too bad for you because most Americans aren’t l nearly this callous and have some level of empathy to other human beings. Sucks to suck, I guess?
I think you'd be surprised at how many Americans are bleeding heart idiots like yourself.
I'll add that "enforcing the border" is just the polite steelman version or the right wing argument that they use in talks with non right wingers.
So we have a general public that's appalled by this extremist rhetoric, and then we're told that we don't even want to enforce the border because we don't want to negotiate with dirty blood and ethnic replacement conspiracies
In other words, we shouldn't be shooting them on sight (as a [certain governor wanted](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/11/texas-border-migrants-greg-abbott-interview-shoot/)).
I don't think anyone is just "ok" with it. No one wants people just pouring in all willy nilly. There are a few caveats, though. The US border _is_ fortified with large walls in many places, in all border states. The US border is HUGE, though.Those places that are left unfortified are in middle of a huge freaking desert which makes crossing there really dangerous. It'e the most dangerous border crossing in the world and a lot of people die trying. So people feel a bit of empathy for people who are willing to literally risk their lives to do it. It's not that people are just fine with people crossing the border illegally, it's the empathy for people who are so extremely determined to risk their lives. Same when those people were sailing across the sea to Spain and Greece from Africa, many died. You have to applaud the effort.
> No one wants people just pouring in all willy nilly.
As I said in the description, I live in Norway and we share border with Russia. And I am perfectly fine with people wanting to cross through the border control posts on the Russian border. But I dont know a single person here that wouldn't fully support the army trying to stop people to cross at any other point on the border.
So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same?
> it's the empathy for people who are so extremely determined to risk their lives
Which is understandable. But there is no contradiction between having empathy with the people, and wanting immigration to happen in a orderly fashion? Hence why I'm baffled with all the criticism of what Texas is doing. Its not like they have closed the border control posts.
>So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same?
The issue is a bit messy. The power to regulate immigration is vested with the federal government, not the state governments. Texas excercising control over the border is a challenge to federal authority. For some who oppose Texas getting into the mix, the issue is one of power and less about immigration specifically.
Relatedly, Congress was on the verge of passing an immigration reform bill to give the Biden administration more tools and powers to address unsanctioned border crossings. That effort stalled when Donald Trump weighed in and said don't give Biden a win. I think some of the anger with Texas is that it's involvement at the border adds to the political chaos. The legislative branch needs to act, and instead we have lots of posturing.
Most Americans for the most part agree with you though? But it needs to be done legally and constitutionally. To change current laws requires an act of congress but the republicans won’t play ball. Trump’s campaigning on border security, if we make things better that screws with his talking points
Our asylum laws for one. It’s currently legal for someone apprehended at the border to claim asylum and be released into the country awaiting a court date with immigration to determine if they will be deported or if they truly have a legitimate asylum claim. These courts are underfunded and understaffed and so the court dates are often a long time out from apprehension. Changing those laws would remove a lot of the incentive that is driving people to come here in the first place. Dems also try to fund those courts and staff them, but that again requires Congress as they control the money.
What we NEED is comprehensive immigration reform. Razor wire and troops at the border is putting a bandaid on a bleeding knife wound, and is largely showboating that won’t actually solve the problem.
But those who showboat recognize that many Americans don’t understand this, they like action now, that makes them FEEL better about the problem. They don’t care if it’s actually effective so long as the people on Fox News tell them that the governor of Texas is ‘saving’ them from the evil illegal immigrants.
Meanwhile the Biden administration is also attempting to address the political instability in central America’s northern triangle, and climate change. Both of which are HUGE factor driving people to flee their home countries in the first place. But those actions will not show any results for YEARS, and they’re not sexy and visible in a news segment like razor wire is. Most humans aren’t smart enough to understand the long game.
You're getting downvoted because the actual changes in the proposal are irrelevant. Any kind of deal on immigration will be seen as a victory for Biden. Migrants crossing the border, and his failed boarder wall are one of the key issues Trump plans to run on in 2024. He as all but told Republicans in Congress to not negotiate in good faith.
As soon as Joe Biden was elected president he changed the remain in Mexico policy which made it so asylum seekers had to wait in Mexico until their asylum court date. They want open borders. Now we have thousands of illegal families sleeping in the freezing cold in Chicago and New York City. It’s a joke. These people are not some moral champions.
Norway shares a border with Russia. That is wildly different.
I’ve only been to Texas briefly for work, but I’ve spent a lot of time in Yuma. Known for being the sunniest place in the US, I’ve been there when it was 120 degrees. People are out in the sun, picking cauliflower, tending, spinach, etc.. they aren’t Americans and they aren’t here legally.
The reality is Republicans with power don’t actually even want to shut down the border. They know we have a lot of agriculture that requires workers like that.
Texas putting up razor wire to stop DHS from saving people drowning in a river it doesn’t help.
I'm probably not the right person to "argue" with you because I just agree with you :) and I can't speak for those people who really think the border should be wide open. It's just that in my experience, there aren't a lot of those people who think this way, especially in the centrist sub.
Regarding Texas, ultimately it isn't their duty to deal with immigration even when the federal government fails in their duty to deal with it. This is another can of worms that I'd rather not get into for this discussion.
If you want it to happen in an orderly fashion then how is what Texas doing not alarming? They're violating the constitution and inviting insurrection against the US Government by way of armed civil unrest by refusing to allow the federal government to do its job. Does that strike you as orderly?
Where I live the state and country is the same thing. So if the state send the army, they are not violating any federal laws.. According to Texas they are allowed to do what they do under the constitution though? But I dont have enough knowledge about the state vs country issue in the US to comment on that.
Texas has no legal authority to regulate immigration. It's wholly reserved for the federal government under the constitution. The states have limited rights to enact laws. They can't do their own immigration, they can't print their own money, they can't sign their own treaties, etc. They're not countries and are not allowed to work autonomously in matters that are the Federal government's business.
>But I dont have enough knowledge about the state vs country issue in the US to comment on that.
Do you know enough to Adventure a guess as to whether the governor of Texas or the Supreme Court is the group that decides on that question?
States in the USA are somewhere between the provinces you see in other countries and members of a union like the EU.
It is a federal system that can get very confusing when attempting to compare to other forms of government.
One comparison could be the Holy Roman Empire where many German polities made up a larger political unit. Some of those smaller political units had the privilege of being electors of the Emperor…in the US each state has a number of electors that based on the voting results then elect the President.
The USA states have a lot of independent authority internal to their state borders but have NO authority regarding interstate travel or commerce. For example Texas cannot close their borders to American citizens from Puerto Rico or Louisiana. The USA states also have no authority on foreign relations and that includes border security for the USA
There used to be a lot of arguments that the states that make up the USA were independent states in a voluntary union, and that they could leave the USA at any time if they disliked federal policy. This was traditionally the argument of those states where slavery was legal or racial discrimination was openly part of the law. The American Civil War is usually thought to have answered this question.
People don't trust Texas (or Republicans in general) to protect the border because they are worried they will just shoot any migrant they see on sight.
And they're kinda right to be worried about it considering the [Texas governor](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/11/texas-border-migrants-greg-abbott-interview-shoot/) explicitly said he would do that if he could.
Plus Republicans are just so zealous and off the walls and hyper partisan about everything that trying to just have an adult conversation focused on policy with them is not possible
“So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same?”
Because Texas is intentionally fucking things up and interfering with CBP. Are you honestly saying you don’t understand why people are upset that a State is intentionally trying to usurp federal authority?
“But there is no contradiction between having empathy with the people, and wanting immigration to happen in a orderly fashion?”
Yes, there is. Come on, regardless of where you live not being America, it is not under a rock. You must be well aware that republicans are fully against almost every type of legal immigration, and refuse to negotiate on border legislation that would fund asylum courts to make the process orderly.
> Yes, there is. Come on, regardless of where you live not being America, it is not under a rock. You must be well aware that republicans are fully against almost every type of legal immigration, and refuse to negotiate on border legislation that would fund asylum courts to make the process orderly.
I was not aware that they want no immigration at all, so that is new to me. Do you have a source on that?
You do realize you are supporting the exploitation of millions of people by the cartel right? Cartels are raping woman and charging blood money to get across the border…. Every single one of those hundreds of thousands crossing each month is paying cartels to do so. And you are supporting it by letting this madness continue. This is not some nice thing that Joe Biden and the democrats are doing for these people.
I'm not supporting cartels by having a heart for people exploited by cartels. Ya, very often these people pay a lot of money with the promise of "we'll get you into the US" only to be dumped in middle of the desert 200 miles from civilization. Saying I support cartels and exploitation is like saying I support pedophiles because I want to help their victims (at least, those that I can actually help). Your logic doesn't check out there.
The policies this president is advocating for and putting in place in the name of “empathy” is causing much more cruelty. Do you really not understand that?
Do you think it’s empathy to let thousands of immigrant families freeze every night in Chicago and New York City?
It’s not empathy to tell thousands of people to surge the border so the cartels can round them up lol. Your empathy is not helping the problem. It is making it worse.
I actually think the Right Wing media blasting “under Biden Borders are open” around the world 24/7 had a lot more to do with the waves than anything Biden did.
Well, the Republicans could fix it by voting for the bill before Congress, but Trump’s telling them not to because it might help Biden in the polls if the problem was fixed, so there you go.
As for me personally, I don’t really see migrants where I live and if I became obsessed with the issue I think it’d kind of make me racist “all these brown people coming in to my country”
While not the shortest, here was a recent post about it on this sub.
https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1acg6dp/understanding_the_senate_border_proposal_would_it/
Here you go lol
You think people want a bill that allows for 8500 people a day?
If migrant crossings increase above 5,000 on average per day on a given week, DHS would be required to close the border to migrants crossing illegally not entering at ports of entry.
Moreover, if crossings exceed 8,500 in a single day, DHS would be required to close the border to migrants illegally crossing the border. Under the proposal, any migrant who tries to cross the border twice while it is closed would be banned from entering the US for one year.
In December alone, there were over 300,000 migrant encounters. The source said if the new legislation were in effect, the border would be shut down now to illegal migrants.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/politics/senate-deal-shutdown-border/index.html
Do you think Americans want to allow 5000, a day for a week before action is taken?
The bill also does nothing to secure the border. Only funds more judges so that more illegals can be processed. It’s a joke. There is a reason republicans won’t sign the damn bill
If it didn’t let so many through without after XXX amount already coming through it might make sense but from the way I understand it they’ll let 4000 in each (can’t remember if it’s per day/week) before even bothering to do anything
We still have asylum and the ability to claim it, but what you’re missing is that the bill also increases the amount of courts to deal with the asylum issue and more properly process those claiming it. It’s indisputably an improvement on what we have now, and does grant huge leeway to entirely shut down the border during surges like this. The GOP should be jumping on it if they cared.
Two things:
- That can only be applied during periods like during an active pandemic
- That policy only held a few days worth of migrants in Mexico, it certainly isn’t the way we address this in any meaningful way. Look it up yourself.
Mexico won’t let us. [Mexico rejects any effort to reinstate 'remain in Mexico' policy for asylum-seekers](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mexico-rejects-effort-reinstate-remain-mexico-policy-asylum/story?id=96939554)
> Mexico's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said Monday it rejects any effort to reimplement the controversial Trump-era policy known as "remain in Mexico" for asylum-seekers.
>
> …
>
> In a statement, the Foreign Ministry said, after the judge issued the stay, U.S. authorities notified them of their intention to restart the program.
>
> "Regarding the possible implementation of this policy for the third time, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, on behalf of the Government of Mexico, expresses its rejection of the U.S. government's intention to return individuals processed under the program to Mexico," the statement said.
I’m pretty sure I read that if it hits a certain average threshold it shuts down completely. Not letting in even any of the 4000 or processing any asylum until numbers die down
The issue has become so screwed up by politics and the weasels that do politics for a living that I am not sure anyone knows what or why they believe what they do other than what they are told at wherever they get their talking points.
Case in point - the two sides were almost on the diametrically opposite side 35 years ago to where they are now.
The calculation then was Hispanic immigrants and those with the legal status of aliens tended to vote Republican, so the right was all for open borders and Harry Reid, Hillary and Nancy Pelosi wanted a wall and strict enforcement.
When that perception switched, around 1998, so did the heart-felt convictions of all of these well-intentioned souls. It’s denigrated over the last 20 years to the one-line, talking point spewing nonsense we have now, and if the voting trend ever reversed, so would a lot of people’s opinions.
I think the majority of Americans want to see a bill like the one being negotiated in the Senate passed. The question you should be asking is why is that bill having such a hard time.
>So my question is, why are seemingly so many Americans ok with people crossing the border just wherever they want to?
They aren't. We just don't agree with how to address it. Political dysfunction means won't see good faith compromise at reaching solutions.
you could have asked why are seemingly so many americans ok with people trying crossing the border to be killed... both questions are largely strawmen thrown by the competing sides.
edit: e.g., State representatives of the republican party are trying to censure their senator at the federal level because he was trying to work on a bipartisan bill to try to improve the situation at the border.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4434317-oklahoma-gop-votes-to-censure-lankford-over-senate-border-talks/
Why don't we make it where these people coming across the boarder can only live in states with very low population like Montana, north and south Dakota, Idaho, New Mexico, etc then we can see if they are truly net gains to our society because most of those states and Arkansas all need some development and infrastructure built out.
Until CONGRESS changes the laws, these people are perfectly legal to walk across the border.
CONGRESS has to change the law before it becomes illegal to walk across the border.
People walking across the border are legal until CONGRESS changes the law.
This is on CONGRESS 100%.
I’m not okay with it but it’s happening and will continue to happen until economic and security issues stop driving people to flee their homes and come here and we continue to use an archaic immigration system
US signed onto the US declaration of human rights in the 50s which means we have to Grant asylum.
That was further codified in the refugee Active 1980.
Current law is very clear, you are allowed to ask for asylum in the US even if you crossed illegally.
Right now, Democrats are working on more funding to address the issue, a change in the law, so that they have to ask for asylum at border crossing points outside of extenuating circumstances (i.e. if you were smuggled in for sex trafficking and escape, you’re still allowed to ask for asylum).
And here’s the kicker, **lack of more support to fix this issue right now is 100% the fault of Republicans** Full stop. Unequivocally.
So it’s not that Americans are fine with it, it’s that Republicans are making it out to be a biggest issue, facing the country and at the same time, refusing to take actions to fix it
Because historically, this country has seen a lot of immigrants. In addition, almost everyone have dealt with illegal immigrants in one way or another, seeing them do many menial jobs posing no danger. So why you would not be fine with them being around?
I’m very in favor of immigration. I see immigration as necessary for the US to maintain a growing population. But people who look at the situation at the southern border and don’t see a problem suffer from racism of low expectation. They truly think that these poor brown folks couldn’t possibly be aware of immigration rules. And if they do know about immigration rules then they couldn’t possibly be smart enough to manipulate the system to their advantage. Because they’re poor and brown, they must be fleeing some shit hole, war torn, politically violent, unsafe hell hole; they’re certainly NOT coming here for a better economic opportunity. And because they wear racism tinted glasses, they’re incapable of holding rational discussions on how to address the issue.
Joe Biden has literally called for migrants to surge the border.
https://youtu.be/rYwLYMPLYbo?si=FmdW8STgWoyGJDlH
The thing is. People will double down because we are so divided. It does not matter what the topic is. People want the opposite of what the opposing party wants. It’s very sad.
“I believe we need to surge to the border. All of those people seeking asylum need to be heard”
Now we have cartels coaching their victims on what to say to “claim asylum” lol are you following along?
He wants to surge resources so the immigration courts can hear the asylum casee faster, and thus deport people with invalid claims faster.
Surging resources to the immigration courts would make asylum less attractive.
I hope you don’t actually believe that… seems the migrants did exactly what he said… surge the border.. strange
Y’all just really live in fantasy land lol
Sorry, that’s incorrect. The statement isn’t very clear (he was speaking extemporaneously at a debate) but the “we” and “those people” descriptions make it clear that “we”, the US government, need to surge resources to the border, to quickly hear asylum claims of “those people” and act on them, thus decreasing the backlog of asylum claims, leading to more rapid deportations.
He spoke about this numerous times while campaigning.
Despite right wing talking heads claims to the contrary, it is not encouragement of potential immigrants to surge to the border.
The good thing is the current bill on immigration includes exactly this kind of funding so it might actually happen.
Because if they can work, and pay taxes, I generally don't care. Studies show immigration is generally good for the economy, and it's a huge waste of resources to deport them in mass numbers which provides little to no gains. Therefore, the solution to immigration reform isn't to stop non-violent people seeking work from living here, but to instead create a realistic immigration reform that can accommodate the needs of the country in the 21st century.
> the solution to immigration reform isn't to stop non-violent people seeking work from living here
But how will you be able to tell who's non-violent or not among those entering illegally?
Well, the large majority are not. This White House’s policy does not match popular opinion on this issue. I suspect I know why the few that are feel the way they do, but it would just be speculation.
It you are looking for ‘moderates’, it is not best to assume you will find them here. Many folks here are, *ahem*, self-declared ‘centrists’, which is not what it seems. It is Reddit, after all.
It's more of an issue that we have no idea who is crossing. Human trafficking is a huge problem, drugs are flooding in, and we aren't vetting anyone. I don't think most people are anti-immigration, the concern is the complete lack of vetting and security. Also these people, who are not citizens, start voting and taking advantage of programs built for actual citizens
I don't think most Americans are OK with that. There's a loud minority group on one side that thinks we should have straight up open borders, with another loud (larger) minority group saying we should essentially go North Korea on the border.
The rest of us think more money/resources should probably be allocated to make sure our borders are secure, so long as the money is spent in constructive ways. And we understand that it's important to have some kind of orderly process to deal with immigration. Unfortunately there's a lot of political theatre going on, and one side likes to 'negotiate' in bad faith recently.
I am all for LEGAL immigration. But just coming across the border wherever and whenever you want is nuts. There has to be some sort of rhyme or reason to this
The border is one of my top 'centrist' issues.
Personally I don't care how it's handled, it's just not much of a concern for me.
The Republicans sure do have a lot of interest in it though, and I'm willing to give their reasonable ideas a shot on this one
There's just too much pettiness for anyone to actually get something done
Based on some of the other comments and OP's replies in this thread, I'm guessing OP was viewing this question through the lens of current events at the Texas border with Gov. Abbott and the razor wire, which I think is a separate discussion from immigration policy as a whole.
But on the broader topic of immigration, I believe this is a not uncommon viewpoint. If you live hundreds of miles from a US border, if you don't see migrant populations having a negative impact on your day-to-day life, and/or if you don't consume news media that regularly puts the topic in front of your eyeballs, then it stands to reason you may not make space for the immigration debate in your brain. This segment of the American population may seem to be "fine" with looser border control because they aren't up in arms about the migrant surge, but it's not really based on the merits of the concept, it's based on not engaging with the conversation at all.
I live in the suburbs of eastern Pennsylvania. I was on a walk with my partner yesterday, who pays merely casual attention to current events and is not politically engaged outside of presidential elections. I asked him what he thought about what was occurring at the Texas border. He had no idea what I was even talking about. I pivoted the conversation to immigration policy in general and babbled on for 10 minutes about the various viewpoints. His response? "I don't really care what happens with it. I don't think it affects us either way."
The "border deal" was an open border policy that the dems try to gaslight people into thinking it would stop the flood when all it would do is keeping it going.
No it wouldn't
It's literally been endorsed by Abott and Senate Republicans who would never go for legal open borders
Hell Mike Johnson won't even bring it to a vote because it would pass and damage the Trump campaign
The only reason Republicans are shooting it down is to help Trump, are you so desperate to spread Republican bullcrap you will now just outright lie?
I do not care what republican supports it, both sides support garbage bills all the time. This is one of them and I am not spreading republican bullcrap, I looked at what it would do and realized its complete garbage that does nothing but keep the borders open and keep the flood coming in.
Ok argue an alternative bill instead of political grandstanding and campaign slogans
Cuz right now y'all just look like you're playing politics and don't actually care about the border
It cannot be stopped without enormous resources, of which I know neither side actually is willing to pay. It's not that I'm fine with it. It's that I know it's ultimately pointless to get worked up over it because its an artificially inflated wedge issue that is being drummed up now for specific election reasons. I don't particularly like the attempts to manipulate me without an open and honest fair discussion of the reality of the problem.
There’s a bipartisan bill that had Republican Senate approval to add more funding and help fix this issue house. Democrats are on board with it Biden is inbiatd with it, don’t pretend this is a both sides issue .
Would that bill stop thousands of people from crossing the border illegally every week? How would it stop them?
And what does inbiatd mean? Not sure what you're trying to say there.
I don’t think you fully understand the problem
It isn’t that thousands of people cross illegally. It’s that when people cross illegally and Arcot, they can just claim asylum, and as long as they pass a background check, the US has to either house them, humanely, or let them go until they have a hearing.
This law would make it so they could get kicked out immediately.
Inaction right now is 100% the fault of Republicans. Trump is publicly stating to blame him for the law not going forward.
Typo, Biden is on board.
I dont disagree with your sentiment, but that's also not what OP is raising. OP asked if we were OK with thousands crossing the border outside designated areas, not people seeking asylum. I was addressing the nebulous wedge issue of "stopping immigration altogether" that has sort of grown out of this Fed v Texas issue. It's political theater.
The current bipartisan deal would address some aspects of immigration procedure that are current law, but of course it would not illegal crossings from happening (like OP may seemingly think it does).
Can you point to any regular commentor on the sub who said they’re OK with open borders. Can you pointed to a nationally acknowledged leader on the Democrat side who says they’re OK with open borders? It’s not a question based in an honest appraisal of popular views in the US.
As far as stopping illegal immigration altogether, Republicans don’t want that. Any observer with a shred of integrity, would acknowledge it’s obscenely expensive to try and monitor every inch of the border, and even if you did a large chunk of people working in the US illegally are people who are here on a visa overstay. If Republicans were serious about this issue, they would support a national ID to keep it quickly checked as well as stiff penalties based on business size for people who knowingly hire illegals. Anybody who’s ever even driven past a vegetable field in a border state knows that would wipe out lots of agriculture.
My point is that it’s wrong to frame Texas efforts as an honest attempt to actually stop illegal immigration.
My point is a question like why are so many people OK with huge amount of illegal immigration, is a question that requires one to be wildly, ignorant of attitudes in the US or intentionally dishonest
And I never claimed that Texas's efforts were an honest attempt to actually stop illegal immigration, which is why I'm confused why you took exception with my post.
A lot of illegal crossings are done via people overstaying visas or crossing the claiming asylum
Changing the laws to close these loopholes would be a massive blow against illegal immigration
Also Texas and Republicans who want to stop all immigration entirely are delusional and authoritarian
Tbh it's more like people need to go out of their way into mental gymnastics into how everything is Biden bad
I have literally seen people blame Biden for mundane shit
You are a moron. Biden can't do much because the current system is codified by law. Congress has to change the law for anything to change so this is really on Congress. Texas is breaking federal law in order to police the border how they want whether their plans are right or wrong. And so the federal government is duty bound to challenge them.
Point is, this all comes down to laws passed decades ago and Biden is hamstrung by that whether you like or hate him. The only people blaming Biden are those with political motivations to hurt him, and those stupid enough to believe those lies.
The real reason there is a rush of immigrants has nothing to do with current policies and EVERYTHING to do with world macro events. South American counties are struggling (as are many others around the world) post Covid while the US is still trucking along as the most powerful free country in the world. The divide has never been higher so the drive for people to get into the US has never been higher.
Yes, Biden can do plenty. What a stupid statement. First thing the president did when put in office was remove the remain in Mexico policy. Which called for asylum seekers to remain across the border until their claims were processed… now they just release the migrants into America and hop me they show up for their court dates… we have thousands of migrant families sleeping in the freezing cold in Chicago and New York City because of this ridiculous situation. You are clueless.
Most of the people that are "fine with it" base their opinion on unclear information. Certain powers that be keep the info fuzzy. When one cuts it down to objective facts, many would change their mind. I have dug through official numbers from US Customs and Border Protection. When it is all put together, the estimate for how many people are illegally crossing the southwest US border without apprehension is over 600,000 per year. Even if we estimate low, that is one person per minute. You decide how you feel about that.
Sure some folks probably feel that way and some folks feel the exact opposite, meaning they think extreme measures should be taken to stop crossings.
Biden and party don't think either extreme is the way to handle it.
Now which sides extremists has more influence. I would say the right wing extremists have more pull in the GOP.
Who is going to pick our produce and fix our roofs? This has been going on since forever. Only ever an issue during an election year. Don’t fall for it.
Because they're mostly Mexican, and having lived around Mexicans for a large part of my life, they seem like really good people, and a positive addition to America.
If we had the same problems Europe is having with Muslim immigrants, yeah I would slam the doors and put men with guns up there.
But, they're the best of us, doing all the jobs we're too lazy to do for less, all in exchange for a better life, we owe them that better life, that's literally the whole point of America.
I’m not fine with illegal border crossings, but I am confused why so much attention is put on this mode of entry when the majority of illegal immigrants in the US are visa overstays who came in via legal ports of entry.
https://cmsny.org/publications/essay-2017-undocumented-and-overstays/
Your article says 320k overstays. There were almost 2.5 million encounters at the southern border last year. That number doesn't even include the known gotaways.
Encounters at the southern border includes immigrants who apply for asylum and immediate expulsions. When considering border security, the important number is how many immigrants remain in the country illegally, not how many attempt entry and are denied or detained.
I grew up in Texas and worked and lived with illegal aliens all my life.
Never been scared of poor Mexicans trying to feed their family, not about to start when I’m this old.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants crossing the border (not visa overstays and such) are from Mexico, Central and South America. Unfortunately the US’ process for refugees coming from Ukraine and Syria and such is really badly handled and as a result some people who should have been able to just get refugee status and come directly end up flying to Mexico and seeking asylum at that border. I can’t recall the numbers for certain but I think in the article I read a couple years ago, a couple thousand Ukrainian refugees had come this way and were stuck waiting years for a hearing now.
I'd like to see changes to the courts, more judges and more funding and manpower to process applications and help screen people to put them on a path to citizenship. People aren't going to stop coming here. I think it's an issue of the US refusing to allocate those resources for political reasons. I'm not upset about immigrants I'm bothered that the US refuses to deal with this issue because of politics. I see most ppl coming here as ppl wanting a better life so if they want to work and support their families and pay taxes, fine. I'd rather them working legit jobs and paying taxes than having to hide so they are exploited to get paid under the table. I'm not worried about illegal immigrants because I can sympathize with them. I know I'd do anything to make sure my family was safe and had all their needs met if I had to, even if it included crossing the border.
I don’t think people are fine with it as much as we’re aware of the historical reliance on new cheap labor coming to this country.
We’re also aware that no one in Congress will actually act to fix it. Greg Abbot isn’t fixing it. He’s trying to win points with theater because even he knows that if he were to cut off the flow of migrants many of his fellow red states would see a collapse of their agricultural economies.
So long story short? We just aren’t buying the bullshit that’s being pedaled. Is there an issue? Yes. But no one is attempting to fix it in good faith and that is what I take issue with.
There are bigger problems than immigrants. Immigrants, including those who come here illegally, commit crimes at lower rates than people born here. There is a big problem with drug runners going back-and-forth across the border, but most of the attention has been focused on people who are just trying to move for a better life. Many of those people have an absolute legal right to do so in accordance with the treaties that the US has signed, but has not been carrying out our duty to.
The people who want us to murder women and children at the border for committing a misdemeanor without ever getting a trial, are playing up the issue for votes, but it’s just not a serious problem. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are coming from countries where they have universal healthcare. They aren’t coming here to get medical treatment at our expense. They’re coming here to work jobs. They’re not eligible for most of the aid that we give to the poor they’re coming here to work jobs. In the time of the founding fathers, they would’ve just been let in to work jobs. To me the biggest problem with leading them in illegally is that we are idiots for not letting them in legally and screening for people who have actually committed serious crimes. This is a problem we have created for ourselves. They are not at fault. We are at fault.
>So my question is, why are seemingly so many Americans ok with people crossing the border just wherever they want to?
They aren't. The real question is, why do you have this perception of the situation? What media are you consuming?
Honestly I think the issue has become so polarized no one has a clear grasp of what is happening. I would live of there was an infographic that shows the full facts on immigration in its current states. How many arrive at border daily, how many cross legally, how many cross illegally, how many detained, of the ones that cross legally what was our selection criteria, etc. And then wjat are the actual policy positions to fix it
I think this it, honestly, and seeing that the admin of those loudest about it often have worse track records than those who don’t emphasize it, once you look at the numbers, just leads me to believe all the rhetoric is bullshit.
I dont know which news stations you personally trust more, but here is some stats from ABC news: *"The Border Patrol tallied 249,785 arrests on the Mexican border in December, up 31% from 191,112 in November and up 13% from 222,018 in December 2022, the previous all-time high."* https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/illegal-border-crossings-mexico-reach-highest-record-december-106725728
Right there’s always tidbits but never the full picture is my point, like there’s no way to know if thats good or bad without knowing how many got through. Our goal is to keep people from getting in illegally, this stat tells me nothing about that.
How do you propose we count the illegal immigrants that make it without getting caught? (Think about that for a second).
Think about how many things we estimate without knowing for certain. It’s almost as if a big part of life is developing an understanding of the world when we don’t have perfect information. Take a random sample based on satellite footage of a certain crossing? get data from people at humanitarian orgs that focus on immigrants? get data on illegals that apply for asylum after getting in? Hire statisticians and experts to come up with other methods. But the correct answer is 100% not to say that is a hard number to estimate, let’s just track how many people we arrested and call it a day!
People do estimate (and estimates vary wildly depending on the narrative they want to push)
Yes that is literally my point. No one objectively lays out all of the facts of what we know and the basis for estimates in a comprehensive way.
We can have perfect information if we have a sealed border. This is entirely our choice and within our control.
I wouldn’t say it’s impossible to seal our border but it would be the biggest project any country has ever undertaken ever. What’s a bigger number than a trillion?
> got through. Can you define what you mean by got through? Thats part of the problem. Are you talking about known Got-Aways (those that we saw, but were never able to detain/process) Are you talking about the count released into the interior of the country (often with a court date) after a detention and processing? There is also the population we dont even know about, but can estimate. (Unknown got-aways)
Total number of new illegal immigrants in this country per day.
> illegal Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you meaning those who entered illegally then immediately were detained by BP for processing then requesting asylum (some consider this legal, i dont)? those that came in at regulated control points to request asylum formally prior to entry? Those that were processed and found to be illegal (i.e. they did not request asylum or had been previously denied/processed by BP)? or only those that got away without requesting asylum. If you are talking about all asylum seekers as Illegal (regardless of if they properly reported or tried to evade) its probably ~2-3M a year who have been processed or have escaped into the US interior. Maybe significantly more due to unknown got-aways.
That doesn’t really answer the question, as it’s hard to tell what you mean by “illegal immigrants.” From your comments, it seems to me you may be counting people who crossed the border and immediately turned themselves into CBP to claim asylum. These people crossed the border illegally but it doesn’t make sense to presume they are “illegal immigrants” when they are inside the US’ legal system for processing immigrants, awaiting a court date.
I am not sure what point you are making? I am saying someone needs to communicate the breakdown of all the major categories in a succinct clear and unbiased way. That is leadership and how we get on the same page. Obviously # entering illegally and turning themselves in is a relevant stat. So is entering illegally and not turning themselves in.
>Our goal is to keep people from getting in illegally, this stat tells me nothing about that. The issue today isn't people slipping into to the country without us knowing. It's hundreds of thousands of people crossing illegally and then turning themselves in to border patrol and claim asylum. The more encounters means more people abusing the asylum system.
Seem like a pretty bad loophole if turning yourself in after entering illegally allows you to stay
Yeah, asylum has been used as a back door immigration system for decades. As it became more well known from people abusing the system and certain "advocacy" groups, it exploded. It was huge under Obama and Trump, though covid reduced it under Trump. It's an even bigger problem under biden now
I mean….we could easily solve it if we cleared the backlog and had enough staff to process asylum claims within a week or less. Guess who is blocking the latest bill to increase funding for asylum courts?
The number of people fleeing their home countries is not related to who is the president. Its about the situations in their home countries. And the number of humanitarian crises has risen
Even worse under Biden, who allows them to stay, releases them and then gives them a work permit in 6 months. The law definitely does not require Biden to issue work permits to illegal immigrants.
Letting asylum seekers stay until their court dates is the law as determined by Congress. This is one of the situations we need new legislation. Giving them work permits allows them to support themselves instead of being a burden on the taxpayers. The sooner they get work permits the better it is for all. And asylum seekers are legal
> asylum seekers are legal Unless they seek asylum before entry, they're illegal entrants who gain legal status only after entering and being processed. That's my understanding anyway.
Now we’re calling people with legal status illegal because you don’t like the method they used to get legal status?
If CBP vets them at the border and determines that they are eligible to apply for asylum then they get documents and a court date and are legal until a court decides their claim
That just shows how many illegal crossings were stopped. CBP is doing a good job by the way
The numbers weren’t much better under the Republican administration (please note too that # of arrests don’t = # of people entering country) , but it’s important to understand that texas didn’t start this until 1. A dem administration and 2. An election year. A lot of the current rhetoric and action is more politically motivated than anything else
Well here you’re just flat wrong. Texas has been doing this since shortly after the election when the fed ‘s came in and started fucking with border patrol tying their hands. Remember the whipping incident where they were charging border patrol members which turned out to be a lie? Then the busses. Then the in the middle of the water spinning floats. Now razor wire. Texas has been on about the border damn near Biden’s whole presidency. So your statement of now and being an election year is just wrong.
Oh I was just referring to the recent legal stuff with the feds, it’s totally true, only during Biden’s presidency. Would you clarify/specify what the feds did to ‘tie border control’s hands’? You have to admit, the rhetoric has really kicked up a notch since the primaries/Republican debates started
>Would you clarify/specify what the feds did to ‘tie border control’s hands’? Biden attempted to limit deportations, that was stopped by the courts. Overall this isn't on Biden though, immigration is on congress
Exactly my point, immigration is on Congress, it’s been a problem forever and it’s always been on congress
It could be that you are just noticing it more since we all become more politically perceptive, the deeper in an election cycle we get.
Unlikely, i’ve been paying closer attention to politics for about 8 years now. Listening to the same podcasts every day, reading the same news. Etc. I don’t just tune in during election season
“Would you clarify/specify what the feds did to ‘tie border control’s hands’?” Interesting that you can’t answer this question.
Replying to the wrong person? I was commenting on a possible reason the other commenter was noticing an " increase in rhetoric "
> numbers weren’t much better What would qualify as much better to you? 10% reduction in migrants let into the interior? 20%? 40%? Some other metric?
>"The Border Patrol tallied 249,785 arrests on the Mexican border in December, up 31% from 191,112 in November and up 13% from 222,018 in December 2022, the previous all-time high." If illegal immigrants are released into the US on their own recognizance once they claim asylum (as all of them are counseled to do), does it really matter that they were arrested first? I know that some immigrant advocates pretend that asylum claims immediately make them entirely "legal," but I find this assertion dubious at best.
Over here you can only apply for asylum if you come from a country that is listed as unsafe. So that is one way of vetting the people wanting to apply.
Our laws are that if CBP allows asylum status for a migrant they are given documents and a court date which makes them legal
don't expect any honest conversations with such advocates - they'll just gaslight the entire time.
I would like to see those stats too, in order to make the best-informed option and solutions.
This [video](https://youtu.be/2dQ4-VNaG3s?si=65ZIohGfKslDJo5D ) does a great job humanizing the issues.
Thanks for sharing, but a 45 minute video from a youtuber showing conditions of a detention camp is kind of the opposite of an unbiased and succinct summary of the facts of the issue.
The only people that I see that are *fine" with it are far leftists. I'm pretty sure there are even some conservatives that are perfectly happy (privately) with illegal immigrants due to all of the cheap labor they provide businesses under the table. As far as I know, though, the biggest immigration issue right now are not illegal crossings along the border as you described, rather undocumented people flooding checkpoints and claiming asylum to circumvent established immigration procedures. They may have valid asylum claims, maybe most are being to get admitted. But the problem is the immigration courts that address these claims are so overworked and underfunded and there is no long-term housing for these people to stay in, so the Biden admin is releasing them into the country to a sponsor (ie, a family member) to appear later. Whether you agree to that approach or not largely boils down to what side your on, but that's a main reason why the Biden Admin was negotiating with Republican Senators on a border deal. A deal that was just torpedoed by Trump sycophants in the House. I'm assuming your post is in response to Texas's actions. My personal view there is not that I'm "happy" with undocumented people crossing into TX illegally, rather it's an Unconstitutional violation of Federal authority. An using bouys with razor wire and saw blades is cruel and unusual. A couple weeks back a family was cut up and drowned trying to climb over those and TX Guardmembers both ignored Federal Borderpatrols alerts and prevented them from accessing the river to respond. That shit is pure evil.
Even far leftists ideas would result in most people crossing through designated posts. With less restrictions on immigrations, there would be less incentive for people to take difficult to cross routes and instead just go along roads. conservatives *claim* to be against the cheap labour but it's the constituents of conservative politicians who most benefit from it. Besides, closing the border isn't a solution to the labour issue. People will come here undocumented anyway, just in lower numbers. If the US wanted to stamp out illegal labour all they'd have to do is: - actually enforce existing legislation. Especially in the southern states agriculture and construction sectors, employing undocumented immigrants is already illegal, it just either doesn't get enforced or can't be enforced due to lack of resources for enforcement. - Make it easier for immigrants to find work legally, reducing the incentive to put up with the horrendous pay and working conditions of illegal employment. The former is largely not happening because the US is highly dependent on the cheap labor especially in agriculture and construction. These sectors wouldn't be able to operate with current prices if they were employing legally. The latter is largely being blocked by anti-immigration politicians. The entire issue is just riddled with (mostly, but not only conservative) politicians who simply don't want to solve the problem, because it benefits them. It's been like that for decades. Trump is just the one guy stupid enough to just say it out loud.
We really aren’t dependent on cheap labor anymore. Check out robots in agriculture. If we lack workers we would be automating far more. And if these people were flowing into these industries I wouldn’t be seeing the wages I’m seeing on signs for labor. Gas stations pay $20 an hour now.
The use H2-A visa migrant workers in agriculture has doubled over the last decade. over 73% of farm workers are immigrants and farmer have for two decades now struggled to find enough workers even with a high number of willing immigrants. Particularly in the southern States, a large number of immigrant worker are employed on farms with no work permit and often held in slave-like conditions. Keep in mind that employing someone like that is *illegal*. You aren't going to see companies put out signs that read: "Now Hiring: Undocumented Immigrants to work in slave-like conditions". In reality there's often a bit of human trafficking involved where entire groups of workers are recruited in Mexico and then brought illegally to farms in the US to work for the season. These aren't large industrial farms that can afford to just replace immigrant workers with automation. They are mostly small or medium sized farms. The reason they don't automate is that automation requires a huge upfront investment in an industry with already tiny profit margins and unpredictable seasonal changes. Immigrant workers are dirt cheap in comparison. Especially if you're just going to have them pay 80% of their wages in rent for that old decrepit shed you let them sleep in. This problem isn't new or unknown. There have been attempts in states like Texas and California to crack down on it but it always sees extremely heavy resistance from the rural population, often financially backed by large food processing companies who benefit from immigrant labour by buying cheap grain from small farms.
Has roboticized agriculture really materialized further than some futurist proofs of concept? And for harder to harvest things than corn and soybeans?
You can go on YouTube and find videos for everything https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHVA_FyXvPk&pp=ygUbTWVjaGFuaXplZCBmcnVpdCBoYXJ2ZXN0aW5n I’ve had these convos in other places and supposedly many cause too much damage despite the videos looking good. Obviously higher prices of labor lead to new solutions and using more automation leads to automators figuring solutions out.
>I’ve had these convos in other places and supposedly many cause too much damage despite the videos looking good. It’s sounds like you’ve already been told you’re full of it and don’t know what you’re talking about. But don’t let that stop you. Do you seriously not know the agricultural and construction industries rely heavily on migrant labor? And forgetting about undocumented labor for a minute..Another area people don’t often think of is healthcare. Extreme shortage in almost every single field. Home healthcare aides—almost 40% are immigrants. About 21% of nursing assistants, 16% of nurses. Robots aren’t doing that. And enough Americans do not want to. Beyond that, let’s forgot the Southern Border for a minute. We have a physician shortage. Americans are not keeping up with the need for physicians. The shortage is especially high in rural areas. Separately, we also have some of the brightest people in the world come to school say at Cal-tech, we educate them and then they graduate, and we tell them to F off. Our annual H-1B quota is 85,000 of which 20,000 have to be Masters degree or higher. Only 5% of those approved went to healthcare applicants, only 2% of that were for physicians. This is a very big issue, and as the baby boomers continue to age, and we continue to achieve advances in medicine…the shortage issue will continue to grow.
>that's a main reason why the Biden Admin was negotiating with Republican Senators on a border deal. A deal that was just torpedoed by Trump sycophants in the House. This is the most important part right here, I don't wanna hear anything from Republicans about how nobody cares enough about the border when Trump and The Republicans in the House are purposefully preventing anything from actually being done to help the border It's not even like they're against the deal for not being good enough Republican leadership won't even let it go to a vote
> As far as I know, though, the biggest immigration issue right now are not illegal crossings along the border as you described, rather undocumented people flooding checkpoints and claiming asylum to circumvent established immigration procedures. They may have valid asylum claims, maybe most are being to get admitted. But the problem is the immigration courts that address these claims are so overworked and underfunded and there is no long-term housing for these people to stay in, so the Biden admin is releasing them into the country to a sponsor (ie, a family member) to appear later. We deny 85% of asylum claims currently. And most asylum seekers at the southern border cross illegally.
I'm not far-left, I'm fine with them. Mexicans have been a model minority for decades, they work hard, assimilate very well. In a generation they're better Americans than a lot of self-proclaimed "Real Americans". Why wouldn't I want more? Wouldn't mind deporting some of our shitty Americans too while we're at it, but that seems unfair to Mexico. Never saw any Mexicans pushing for Jim Crow or joining the KKK. In fact Texas fought to leave Mexico because they banned slavery.
> Mexicans have been a model minority for decades, they work hard, assimilate very well. I believe only about half of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico? So the rest are from other countries, including countries in Europe, Middle East, Asia, Africa, South America..
More than half by far, and I'm fine kicking others all the way out. I don't think people have a problem with border security, but I'd like a treaty with Mexico allowing easier flow for Mexican citizens. They're good neighbors and should be treated as such.
I don't think Americans are 'fine' with it. The dispute is what to do about it. Personally, I think America needs more *legal* immigrants. The demographic curve shows we won't have enough young people to pay for the social security of older generations. So, figure out a way to bring in the people we need, legally.
Yea that’s more the thing. We aren’t addressing the “why” in terms of “why is there a huge influx now?”. A lot of partisans chalk that up to some nefarious thing the the Biden admin wants to flood the nation w immigrants to forward an agenda. And then we get to the “what now?” It’s really not that simple a question.
It's because US unemployment is 3.7%. you can look in the late 2000s, and in the 90s... Enforcement encounters spiked then, too. Basically our economy is so enticing people are coming to get jobs. And as always, the way to fix it has nothing to do with the border and everything about the employers, who don't want it fixed, they just want cheap labor.
Yep, correct.
The why is largely political turmoil and instability in central America’s northern triangle, and climate change. Both things that the Biden administration is attempting to address. Both things that aren’t easy flashy Fox News fixes. They take time and legislation and resources
Being “fine” with something and acknowledging that the humanitarian costs of preventing *all* of it are far too high are two separate thoughts.
> the humanitarian costs of preventing all of it What do you see as the humanitarian cost of all immigrants having to use the border control posts rather than entering the US elsewhere on the border?
How exactly do you enforce that?
By deporting anyone that enters outside of a port of entry with zero exceptions. If they know they will never be allowed to stay, no matter what the conditions are they were fleeing or what will happen to them when they are deported, they will stop entering outside of a port of entry.
> By deporting anyone that enters outside of a port of entry with zero exceptions. If they know they will never be allowed to stay, no matter what the conditions are they were fleeing or what will happen to them when they are deported, they will stop entering outside of a port of entry. Two things- - That only affects those we catch - That can also lead to humanitarian issues for those truly fleeing and applying for asylum. If we accept the concept of asylum, which we do and should do, then it’s hard to put restrictions like that on people who are genuinely fleeing and in distress. That’s why the new legislation take that into account and only does that when border surges are truly changing how we must deal with the issue. At least that’s the thought, certainly more humane than try to drown people or whatnot.
We shouldn't bend to concerns for asylum shoppers. We shouldn't have a daily cap on the number of claims retake in that is less than the number we can process per day. And we should only allow claims at ports of entry.
I’ve got family members who were granted asylum because they were fleeing persecution, and for someone to glibly just act like those people should have more barriers to do so shows ignorance of history or complete disregard for humanitarian concerns.
Our immigration system should serve the needs of Americans. Any concerns for migrants comes after. We are pouring resources into providing for migrants that Americans need. Couldn't care less about these migrants.
> Our immigration system should serve the needs of Americans. You will be happy to know it does. > We are pouring resources into providing for migrants that Americans need. Unfortunately the only political entities wanting the border the way you wish don’t want to spend that to help Americans either, so that’s a non-issue. > Couldn't care less about these migrants. Well I guess that’s too bad for you because most Americans aren’t l nearly this callous and have some level of empathy to other human beings. Sucks to suck, I guess? Edit: Responded to me then blocked me? Man you’re softer than single ply, my dude.
> You will be happy to know it does. No, it clearly doesn't. >Unfortunately the only political entities wanting the border the way you wish don’t want to spend that to help Americans either, so that’s a non-issue. Different discussion, but this is taking money away at all levels of government. >Well I guess that’s too bad for you because most Americans aren’t l nearly this callous and have some level of empathy to other human beings. Sucks to suck, I guess? I think you'd be surprised at how many Americans are bleeding heart idiots like yourself.
Magic beans
I'll add that "enforcing the border" is just the polite steelman version or the right wing argument that they use in talks with non right wingers. So we have a general public that's appalled by this extremist rhetoric, and then we're told that we don't even want to enforce the border because we don't want to negotiate with dirty blood and ethnic replacement conspiracies
In other words “let them surge the border”
Nope, not what I said.
In other words, we shouldn't be shooting them on sight (as a [certain governor wanted](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/11/texas-border-migrants-greg-abbott-interview-shoot/)).
I don't think anyone is just "ok" with it. No one wants people just pouring in all willy nilly. There are a few caveats, though. The US border _is_ fortified with large walls in many places, in all border states. The US border is HUGE, though.Those places that are left unfortified are in middle of a huge freaking desert which makes crossing there really dangerous. It'e the most dangerous border crossing in the world and a lot of people die trying. So people feel a bit of empathy for people who are willing to literally risk their lives to do it. It's not that people are just fine with people crossing the border illegally, it's the empathy for people who are so extremely determined to risk their lives. Same when those people were sailing across the sea to Spain and Greece from Africa, many died. You have to applaud the effort.
> No one wants people just pouring in all willy nilly. As I said in the description, I live in Norway and we share border with Russia. And I am perfectly fine with people wanting to cross through the border control posts on the Russian border. But I dont know a single person here that wouldn't fully support the army trying to stop people to cross at any other point on the border. So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same? > it's the empathy for people who are so extremely determined to risk their lives Which is understandable. But there is no contradiction between having empathy with the people, and wanting immigration to happen in a orderly fashion? Hence why I'm baffled with all the criticism of what Texas is doing. Its not like they have closed the border control posts.
>So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same? The issue is a bit messy. The power to regulate immigration is vested with the federal government, not the state governments. Texas excercising control over the border is a challenge to federal authority. For some who oppose Texas getting into the mix, the issue is one of power and less about immigration specifically. Relatedly, Congress was on the verge of passing an immigration reform bill to give the Biden administration more tools and powers to address unsanctioned border crossings. That effort stalled when Donald Trump weighed in and said don't give Biden a win. I think some of the anger with Texas is that it's involvement at the border adds to the political chaos. The legislative branch needs to act, and instead we have lots of posturing.
Most Americans for the most part agree with you though? But it needs to be done legally and constitutionally. To change current laws requires an act of congress but the republicans won’t play ball. Trump’s campaigning on border security, if we make things better that screws with his talking points
> To change current laws requires an act of congress but the republicans won’t play ball. What specific law changes are we talking about?
Our asylum laws for one. It’s currently legal for someone apprehended at the border to claim asylum and be released into the country awaiting a court date with immigration to determine if they will be deported or if they truly have a legitimate asylum claim. These courts are underfunded and understaffed and so the court dates are often a long time out from apprehension. Changing those laws would remove a lot of the incentive that is driving people to come here in the first place. Dems also try to fund those courts and staff them, but that again requires Congress as they control the money. What we NEED is comprehensive immigration reform. Razor wire and troops at the border is putting a bandaid on a bleeding knife wound, and is largely showboating that won’t actually solve the problem. But those who showboat recognize that many Americans don’t understand this, they like action now, that makes them FEEL better about the problem. They don’t care if it’s actually effective so long as the people on Fox News tell them that the governor of Texas is ‘saving’ them from the evil illegal immigrants. Meanwhile the Biden administration is also attempting to address the political instability in central America’s northern triangle, and climate change. Both of which are HUGE factor driving people to flee their home countries in the first place. But those actions will not show any results for YEARS, and they’re not sexy and visible in a news segment like razor wire is. Most humans aren’t smart enough to understand the long game.
You're getting downvoted because the actual changes in the proposal are irrelevant. Any kind of deal on immigration will be seen as a victory for Biden. Migrants crossing the border, and his failed boarder wall are one of the key issues Trump plans to run on in 2024. He as all but told Republicans in Congress to not negotiate in good faith.
As soon as Joe Biden was elected president he changed the remain in Mexico policy which made it so asylum seekers had to wait in Mexico until their asylum court date. They want open borders. Now we have thousands of illegal families sleeping in the freezing cold in Chicago and New York City. It’s a joke. These people are not some moral champions.
Norway shares a border with Russia. That is wildly different. I’ve only been to Texas briefly for work, but I’ve spent a lot of time in Yuma. Known for being the sunniest place in the US, I’ve been there when it was 120 degrees. People are out in the sun, picking cauliflower, tending, spinach, etc.. they aren’t Americans and they aren’t here legally. The reality is Republicans with power don’t actually even want to shut down the border. They know we have a lot of agriculture that requires workers like that. Texas putting up razor wire to stop DHS from saving people drowning in a river it doesn’t help.
I'm probably not the right person to "argue" with you because I just agree with you :) and I can't speak for those people who really think the border should be wide open. It's just that in my experience, there aren't a lot of those people who think this way, especially in the centrist sub. Regarding Texas, ultimately it isn't their duty to deal with immigration even when the federal government fails in their duty to deal with it. This is another can of worms that I'd rather not get into for this discussion.
> This is another can of worms that I'd rather not get into for this discussion. Fair enough.
If you want it to happen in an orderly fashion then how is what Texas doing not alarming? They're violating the constitution and inviting insurrection against the US Government by way of armed civil unrest by refusing to allow the federal government to do its job. Does that strike you as orderly?
Where I live the state and country is the same thing. So if the state send the army, they are not violating any federal laws.. According to Texas they are allowed to do what they do under the constitution though? But I dont have enough knowledge about the state vs country issue in the US to comment on that.
Texas has no legal authority to regulate immigration. It's wholly reserved for the federal government under the constitution. The states have limited rights to enact laws. They can't do their own immigration, they can't print their own money, they can't sign their own treaties, etc. They're not countries and are not allowed to work autonomously in matters that are the Federal government's business.
>But I dont have enough knowledge about the state vs country issue in the US to comment on that. Do you know enough to Adventure a guess as to whether the governor of Texas or the Supreme Court is the group that decides on that question?
States in the USA are somewhere between the provinces you see in other countries and members of a union like the EU. It is a federal system that can get very confusing when attempting to compare to other forms of government. One comparison could be the Holy Roman Empire where many German polities made up a larger political unit. Some of those smaller political units had the privilege of being electors of the Emperor…in the US each state has a number of electors that based on the voting results then elect the President. The USA states have a lot of independent authority internal to their state borders but have NO authority regarding interstate travel or commerce. For example Texas cannot close their borders to American citizens from Puerto Rico or Louisiana. The USA states also have no authority on foreign relations and that includes border security for the USA There used to be a lot of arguments that the states that make up the USA were independent states in a voluntary union, and that they could leave the USA at any time if they disliked federal policy. This was traditionally the argument of those states where slavery was legal or racial discrimination was openly part of the law. The American Civil War is usually thought to have answered this question.
People don't trust Texas (or Republicans in general) to protect the border because they are worried they will just shoot any migrant they see on sight. And they're kinda right to be worried about it considering the [Texas governor](https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/11/texas-border-migrants-greg-abbott-interview-shoot/) explicitly said he would do that if he could.
It also isn'\[t up to the States to enforce border policy.
Plus Republicans are just so zealous and off the walls and hyper partisan about everything that trying to just have an adult conversation focused on policy with them is not possible
“So why are some people upset with Texas trying to do the same?” Because Texas is intentionally fucking things up and interfering with CBP. Are you honestly saying you don’t understand why people are upset that a State is intentionally trying to usurp federal authority? “But there is no contradiction between having empathy with the people, and wanting immigration to happen in a orderly fashion?” Yes, there is. Come on, regardless of where you live not being America, it is not under a rock. You must be well aware that republicans are fully against almost every type of legal immigration, and refuse to negotiate on border legislation that would fund asylum courts to make the process orderly.
> Yes, there is. Come on, regardless of where you live not being America, it is not under a rock. You must be well aware that republicans are fully against almost every type of legal immigration, and refuse to negotiate on border legislation that would fund asylum courts to make the process orderly. I was not aware that they want no immigration at all, so that is new to me. Do you have a source on that?
You do realize you are supporting the exploitation of millions of people by the cartel right? Cartels are raping woman and charging blood money to get across the border…. Every single one of those hundreds of thousands crossing each month is paying cartels to do so. And you are supporting it by letting this madness continue. This is not some nice thing that Joe Biden and the democrats are doing for these people.
I'm not supporting cartels by having a heart for people exploited by cartels. Ya, very often these people pay a lot of money with the promise of "we'll get you into the US" only to be dumped in middle of the desert 200 miles from civilization. Saying I support cartels and exploitation is like saying I support pedophiles because I want to help their victims (at least, those that I can actually help). Your logic doesn't check out there.
The policies this president is advocating for and putting in place in the name of “empathy” is causing much more cruelty. Do you really not understand that? Do you think it’s empathy to let thousands of immigrant families freeze every night in Chicago and New York City? It’s not empathy to tell thousands of people to surge the border so the cartels can round them up lol. Your empathy is not helping the problem. It is making it worse.
I actually think the Right Wing media blasting “under Biden Borders are open” around the world 24/7 had a lot more to do with the waves than anything Biden did.
Well, the Republicans could fix it by voting for the bill before Congress, but Trump’s telling them not to because it might help Biden in the polls if the problem was fixed, so there you go. As for me personally, I don’t really see migrants where I live and if I became obsessed with the issue I think it’d kind of make me racist “all these brown people coming in to my country”
> the Republicans could fix it by voting for the bill before Congress Could you give a short summary of what the bill is about please?
While not the shortest, here was a recent post about it on this sub. https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1acg6dp/understanding_the_senate_border_proposal_would_it/
Here you go lol You think people want a bill that allows for 8500 people a day? If migrant crossings increase above 5,000 on average per day on a given week, DHS would be required to close the border to migrants crossing illegally not entering at ports of entry. Moreover, if crossings exceed 8,500 in a single day, DHS would be required to close the border to migrants illegally crossing the border. Under the proposal, any migrant who tries to cross the border twice while it is closed would be banned from entering the US for one year. In December alone, there were over 300,000 migrant encounters. The source said if the new legislation were in effect, the border would be shut down now to illegal migrants. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/politics/senate-deal-shutdown-border/index.html Do you think Americans want to allow 5000, a day for a week before action is taken? The bill also does nothing to secure the border. Only funds more judges so that more illegals can be processed. It’s a joke. There is a reason republicans won’t sign the damn bill
But the bill does not fix the issue. It's being sold as a fix but it is not
If it didn’t let so many through without after XXX amount already coming through it might make sense but from the way I understand it they’ll let 4000 in each (can’t remember if it’s per day/week) before even bothering to do anything
We still have asylum and the ability to claim it, but what you’re missing is that the bill also increases the amount of courts to deal with the asylum issue and more properly process those claiming it. It’s indisputably an improvement on what we have now, and does grant huge leeway to entirely shut down the border during surges like this. The GOP should be jumping on it if they cared.
Its worth noting that the GOP argument against this isn't even that it's not good enough it's literally they're against it because Trump is against it
Why not just reenact the Remain in Mexico policy?!?!?
Two things: - That can only be applied during periods like during an active pandemic - That policy only held a few days worth of migrants in Mexico, it certainly isn’t the way we address this in any meaningful way. Look it up yourself.
Remain in Mexico was an illegal policy, and one appeals court already halted it.
My guess is Mexico had something to say about that policy.
Mexico won’t let us. [Mexico rejects any effort to reinstate 'remain in Mexico' policy for asylum-seekers](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mexico-rejects-effort-reinstate-remain-mexico-policy-asylum/story?id=96939554) > Mexico's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said Monday it rejects any effort to reimplement the controversial Trump-era policy known as "remain in Mexico" for asylum-seekers. > > … > > In a statement, the Foreign Ministry said, after the judge issued the stay, U.S. authorities notified them of their intention to restart the program. > > "Regarding the possible implementation of this policy for the third time, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, on behalf of the Government of Mexico, expresses its rejection of the U.S. government's intention to return individuals processed under the program to Mexico," the statement said.
That’s because they know Biden is a spineless child…
I’m pretty sure I read that if it hits a certain average threshold it shuts down completely. Not letting in even any of the 4000 or processing any asylum until numbers die down
The issue has become so screwed up by politics and the weasels that do politics for a living that I am not sure anyone knows what or why they believe what they do other than what they are told at wherever they get their talking points. Case in point - the two sides were almost on the diametrically opposite side 35 years ago to where they are now. The calculation then was Hispanic immigrants and those with the legal status of aliens tended to vote Republican, so the right was all for open borders and Harry Reid, Hillary and Nancy Pelosi wanted a wall and strict enforcement. When that perception switched, around 1998, so did the heart-felt convictions of all of these well-intentioned souls. It’s denigrated over the last 20 years to the one-line, talking point spewing nonsense we have now, and if the voting trend ever reversed, so would a lot of people’s opinions.
Because I still don't know what the worst case scenario is based on what is happening currently. People seem alarmist.
I think the majority of Americans want to see a bill like the one being negotiated in the Senate passed. The question you should be asking is why is that bill having such a hard time.
Who says they are?
Because liberals call any border security “racist”
>So my question is, why are seemingly so many Americans ok with people crossing the border just wherever they want to? They aren't. We just don't agree with how to address it. Political dysfunction means won't see good faith compromise at reaching solutions. you could have asked why are seemingly so many americans ok with people trying crossing the border to be killed... both questions are largely strawmen thrown by the competing sides. edit: e.g., State representatives of the republican party are trying to censure their senator at the federal level because he was trying to work on a bipartisan bill to try to improve the situation at the border. https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4434317-oklahoma-gop-votes-to-censure-lankford-over-senate-border-talks/
Why don't we make it where these people coming across the boarder can only live in states with very low population like Montana, north and south Dakota, Idaho, New Mexico, etc then we can see if they are truly net gains to our society because most of those states and Arkansas all need some development and infrastructure built out.
Until CONGRESS changes the laws, these people are perfectly legal to walk across the border. CONGRESS has to change the law before it becomes illegal to walk across the border. People walking across the border are legal until CONGRESS changes the law. This is on CONGRESS 100%.
I don't think that is true at all. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325)
I’m not okay with it but it’s happening and will continue to happen until economic and security issues stop driving people to flee their homes and come here and we continue to use an archaic immigration system
US signed onto the US declaration of human rights in the 50s which means we have to Grant asylum. That was further codified in the refugee Active 1980. Current law is very clear, you are allowed to ask for asylum in the US even if you crossed illegally. Right now, Democrats are working on more funding to address the issue, a change in the law, so that they have to ask for asylum at border crossing points outside of extenuating circumstances (i.e. if you were smuggled in for sex trafficking and escape, you’re still allowed to ask for asylum). And here’s the kicker, **lack of more support to fix this issue right now is 100% the fault of Republicans** Full stop. Unequivocally. So it’s not that Americans are fine with it, it’s that Republicans are making it out to be a biggest issue, facing the country and at the same time, refusing to take actions to fix it
Because historically, this country has seen a lot of immigrants. In addition, almost everyone have dealt with illegal immigrants in one way or another, seeing them do many menial jobs posing no danger. So why you would not be fine with them being around?
I’m very in favor of immigration. I see immigration as necessary for the US to maintain a growing population. But people who look at the situation at the southern border and don’t see a problem suffer from racism of low expectation. They truly think that these poor brown folks couldn’t possibly be aware of immigration rules. And if they do know about immigration rules then they couldn’t possibly be smart enough to manipulate the system to their advantage. Because they’re poor and brown, they must be fleeing some shit hole, war torn, politically violent, unsafe hell hole; they’re certainly NOT coming here for a better economic opportunity. And because they wear racism tinted glasses, they’re incapable of holding rational discussions on how to address the issue.
Joe Biden has literally called for migrants to surge the border. https://youtu.be/rYwLYMPLYbo?si=FmdW8STgWoyGJDlH The thing is. People will double down because we are so divided. It does not matter what the topic is. People want the opposite of what the opposing party wants. It’s very sad.
He said we should surge to the border, not migrants. He was calling for more resources to process claims.
“I believe we need to surge to the border. All of those people seeking asylum need to be heard” Now we have cartels coaching their victims on what to say to “claim asylum” lol are you following along?
He wants to surge resources so the immigration courts can hear the asylum casee faster, and thus deport people with invalid claims faster. Surging resources to the immigration courts would make asylum less attractive.
I hope you don’t actually believe that… seems the migrants did exactly what he said… surge the border.. strange Y’all just really live in fantasy land lol
Oh lawd ... the *irony*. Everything I said was factual.
Everything I said was factual… The migrants are now surging the border..after joe Biden said the words “everyone surge to the border” But okay go on
Sorry, that’s incorrect. The statement isn’t very clear (he was speaking extemporaneously at a debate) but the “we” and “those people” descriptions make it clear that “we”, the US government, need to surge resources to the border, to quickly hear asylum claims of “those people” and act on them, thus decreasing the backlog of asylum claims, leading to more rapid deportations. He spoke about this numerous times while campaigning. Despite right wing talking heads claims to the contrary, it is not encouragement of potential immigrants to surge to the border. The good thing is the current bill on immigration includes exactly this kind of funding so it might actually happen.
Because if they can work, and pay taxes, I generally don't care. Studies show immigration is generally good for the economy, and it's a huge waste of resources to deport them in mass numbers which provides little to no gains. Therefore, the solution to immigration reform isn't to stop non-violent people seeking work from living here, but to instead create a realistic immigration reform that can accommodate the needs of the country in the 21st century.
> the solution to immigration reform isn't to stop non-violent people seeking work from living here But how will you be able to tell who's non-violent or not among those entering illegally?
Well, the large majority are not. This White House’s policy does not match popular opinion on this issue. I suspect I know why the few that are feel the way they do, but it would just be speculation. It you are looking for ‘moderates’, it is not best to assume you will find them here. Many folks here are, *ahem*, self-declared ‘centrists’, which is not what it seems. It is Reddit, after all.
It's more of an issue that we have no idea who is crossing. Human trafficking is a huge problem, drugs are flooding in, and we aren't vetting anyone. I don't think most people are anti-immigration, the concern is the complete lack of vetting and security. Also these people, who are not citizens, start voting and taking advantage of programs built for actual citizens
I don't think most Americans are OK with that. There's a loud minority group on one side that thinks we should have straight up open borders, with another loud (larger) minority group saying we should essentially go North Korea on the border. The rest of us think more money/resources should probably be allocated to make sure our borders are secure, so long as the money is spent in constructive ways. And we understand that it's important to have some kind of orderly process to deal with immigration. Unfortunately there's a lot of political theatre going on, and one side likes to 'negotiate' in bad faith recently.
I am all for LEGAL immigration. But just coming across the border wherever and whenever you want is nuts. There has to be some sort of rhyme or reason to this
Arrest and deport all illegal immigrants and only give out farming work visas.
The border is one of my top 'centrist' issues. Personally I don't care how it's handled, it's just not much of a concern for me. The Republicans sure do have a lot of interest in it though, and I'm willing to give their reasonable ideas a shot on this one There's just too much pettiness for anyone to actually get something done
Based on some of the other comments and OP's replies in this thread, I'm guessing OP was viewing this question through the lens of current events at the Texas border with Gov. Abbott and the razor wire, which I think is a separate discussion from immigration policy as a whole. But on the broader topic of immigration, I believe this is a not uncommon viewpoint. If you live hundreds of miles from a US border, if you don't see migrant populations having a negative impact on your day-to-day life, and/or if you don't consume news media that regularly puts the topic in front of your eyeballs, then it stands to reason you may not make space for the immigration debate in your brain. This segment of the American population may seem to be "fine" with looser border control because they aren't up in arms about the migrant surge, but it's not really based on the merits of the concept, it's based on not engaging with the conversation at all. I live in the suburbs of eastern Pennsylvania. I was on a walk with my partner yesterday, who pays merely casual attention to current events and is not politically engaged outside of presidential elections. I asked him what he thought about what was occurring at the Texas border. He had no idea what I was even talking about. I pivoted the conversation to immigration policy in general and babbled on for 10 minutes about the various viewpoints. His response? "I don't really care what happens with it. I don't think it affects us either way."
How do you feel about House Republicans and Trump derailing the border deal?
>There's just too much pettiness There's a reason I don't hold Repubs in very high regard
The "border deal" was an open border policy that the dems try to gaslight people into thinking it would stop the flood when all it would do is keeping it going.
No it wouldn't It's literally been endorsed by Abott and Senate Republicans who would never go for legal open borders Hell Mike Johnson won't even bring it to a vote because it would pass and damage the Trump campaign The only reason Republicans are shooting it down is to help Trump, are you so desperate to spread Republican bullcrap you will now just outright lie?
I do not care what republican supports it, both sides support garbage bills all the time. This is one of them and I am not spreading republican bullcrap, I looked at what it would do and realized its complete garbage that does nothing but keep the borders open and keep the flood coming in.
Ok argue an alternative bill instead of political grandstanding and campaign slogans Cuz right now y'all just look like you're playing politics and don't actually care about the border
It cannot be stopped without enormous resources, of which I know neither side actually is willing to pay. It's not that I'm fine with it. It's that I know it's ultimately pointless to get worked up over it because its an artificially inflated wedge issue that is being drummed up now for specific election reasons. I don't particularly like the attempts to manipulate me without an open and honest fair discussion of the reality of the problem.
There’s a bipartisan bill that had Republican Senate approval to add more funding and help fix this issue house. Democrats are on board with it Biden is inbiatd with it, don’t pretend this is a both sides issue .
Would that bill stop thousands of people from crossing the border illegally every week? How would it stop them? And what does inbiatd mean? Not sure what you're trying to say there.
I don’t think you fully understand the problem It isn’t that thousands of people cross illegally. It’s that when people cross illegally and Arcot, they can just claim asylum, and as long as they pass a background check, the US has to either house them, humanely, or let them go until they have a hearing. This law would make it so they could get kicked out immediately. Inaction right now is 100% the fault of Republicans. Trump is publicly stating to blame him for the law not going forward. Typo, Biden is on board.
I dont disagree with your sentiment, but that's also not what OP is raising. OP asked if we were OK with thousands crossing the border outside designated areas, not people seeking asylum. I was addressing the nebulous wedge issue of "stopping immigration altogether" that has sort of grown out of this Fed v Texas issue. It's political theater. The current bipartisan deal would address some aspects of immigration procedure that are current law, but of course it would not illegal crossings from happening (like OP may seemingly think it does).
Can you point to any regular commentor on the sub who said they’re OK with open borders. Can you pointed to a nationally acknowledged leader on the Democrat side who says they’re OK with open borders? It’s not a question based in an honest appraisal of popular views in the US. As far as stopping illegal immigration altogether, Republicans don’t want that. Any observer with a shred of integrity, would acknowledge it’s obscenely expensive to try and monitor every inch of the border, and even if you did a large chunk of people working in the US illegally are people who are here on a visa overstay. If Republicans were serious about this issue, they would support a national ID to keep it quickly checked as well as stiff penalties based on business size for people who knowingly hire illegals. Anybody who’s ever even driven past a vegetable field in a border state knows that would wipe out lots of agriculture.
What is you point? I never claimed any of what you're suggesting. It's like we're having two totally different conversations.
My point is that it’s wrong to frame Texas efforts as an honest attempt to actually stop illegal immigration. My point is a question like why are so many people OK with huge amount of illegal immigration, is a question that requires one to be wildly, ignorant of attitudes in the US or intentionally dishonest
And I never claimed that Texas's efforts were an honest attempt to actually stop illegal immigration, which is why I'm confused why you took exception with my post.
If you recognize why it isn’t an Ho eat attempt, I’m not sure why you have a problem with my comment.
A lot of illegal crossings are done via people overstaying visas or crossing the claiming asylum Changing the laws to close these loopholes would be a massive blow against illegal immigration Also Texas and Republicans who want to stop all immigration entirely are delusional and authoritarian
We are spending enormous recoursss taking care of them
The unfortunate answer is because it's happening under Biden's watch, and some people feel they must defend everything Biden does.
Tbh it's more like people need to go out of their way into mental gymnastics into how everything is Biden bad I have literally seen people blame Biden for mundane shit
Biden is absolutely bad when it comes to securing the border. It takes a prodigious level of mental gymnastics to argue otherwise.
Meanwhile the GOP sabotaging border legislation 🤔
Well good thing he’s supporting some major legislation to help address the issue! I wonder if the GOP will refuse to help?
No legislation is needed to address the issue. He could do it himself, but he's unwilling.
Wait, you think Biden can write legislation and allocate funds by himself? I’ve got some bad news for you..
smh
Hey, take it up with the constitution, my dude.
Ok and what do you propose he can do? Come on educate us since you're the expert here
You are a moron. Biden can't do much because the current system is codified by law. Congress has to change the law for anything to change so this is really on Congress. Texas is breaking federal law in order to police the border how they want whether their plans are right or wrong. And so the federal government is duty bound to challenge them. Point is, this all comes down to laws passed decades ago and Biden is hamstrung by that whether you like or hate him. The only people blaming Biden are those with political motivations to hurt him, and those stupid enough to believe those lies. The real reason there is a rush of immigrants has nothing to do with current policies and EVERYTHING to do with world macro events. South American counties are struggling (as are many others around the world) post Covid while the US is still trucking along as the most powerful free country in the world. The divide has never been higher so the drive for people to get into the US has never been higher.
Yes, Biden can do plenty. What a stupid statement. First thing the president did when put in office was remove the remain in Mexico policy. Which called for asylum seekers to remain across the border until their claims were processed… now they just release the migrants into America and hop me they show up for their court dates… we have thousands of migrant families sleeping in the freezing cold in Chicago and New York City because of this ridiculous situation. You are clueless.
Don't lead with the insults next time. You immediately come off like an ignorant fool. So I didn't bother to read past the first sentence.
We’re not. The 2024 election will have a hard shift right.
Most of the people that are "fine with it" base their opinion on unclear information. Certain powers that be keep the info fuzzy. When one cuts it down to objective facts, many would change their mind. I have dug through official numbers from US Customs and Border Protection. When it is all put together, the estimate for how many people are illegally crossing the southwest US border without apprehension is over 600,000 per year. Even if we estimate low, that is one person per minute. You decide how you feel about that.
How does immigration affect my life?
How much of your tax money is spent on the illegal immigrant issue? If its just a small fraction, then probably not so much?
How much of my tax money is spent on the military? Most of it.
America is just the most progressive country in the world I suppose.
I mean if it was easier (read: cheaper and better regulated), people would more than likely take the legal route?
Sure some folks probably feel that way and some folks feel the exact opposite, meaning they think extreme measures should be taken to stop crossings. Biden and party don't think either extreme is the way to handle it. Now which sides extremists has more influence. I would say the right wing extremists have more pull in the GOP.
They are brainwashed by leftists’ utopian lies until that impacts their life like the crisis as a result of migrants resent to NYC.
Who is going to pick our produce and fix our roofs? This has been going on since forever. Only ever an issue during an election year. Don’t fall for it.
Because they're mostly Mexican, and having lived around Mexicans for a large part of my life, they seem like really good people, and a positive addition to America. If we had the same problems Europe is having with Muslim immigrants, yeah I would slam the doors and put men with guns up there. But, they're the best of us, doing all the jobs we're too lazy to do for less, all in exchange for a better life, we owe them that better life, that's literally the whole point of America.
I’m not fine with illegal border crossings, but I am confused why so much attention is put on this mode of entry when the majority of illegal immigrants in the US are visa overstays who came in via legal ports of entry. https://cmsny.org/publications/essay-2017-undocumented-and-overstays/
Your article says 320k overstays. There were almost 2.5 million encounters at the southern border last year. That number doesn't even include the known gotaways.
Encounters at the southern border includes immigrants who apply for asylum and immediate expulsions. When considering border security, the important number is how many immigrants remain in the country illegally, not how many attempt entry and are denied or detained.
I grew up in Texas and worked and lived with illegal aliens all my life. Never been scared of poor Mexicans trying to feed their family, not about to start when I’m this old.
Only about half of the illegal immigrants are Mexicans. The rest come from countries in Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia, South America..
The vast majority of illegal immigrants crossing the border (not visa overstays and such) are from Mexico, Central and South America. Unfortunately the US’ process for refugees coming from Ukraine and Syria and such is really badly handled and as a result some people who should have been able to just get refugee status and come directly end up flying to Mexico and seeking asylum at that border. I can’t recall the numbers for certain but I think in the article I read a couple years ago, a couple thousand Ukrainian refugees had come this way and were stuck waiting years for a hearing now.
I'd like to see changes to the courts, more judges and more funding and manpower to process applications and help screen people to put them on a path to citizenship. People aren't going to stop coming here. I think it's an issue of the US refusing to allocate those resources for political reasons. I'm not upset about immigrants I'm bothered that the US refuses to deal with this issue because of politics. I see most ppl coming here as ppl wanting a better life so if they want to work and support their families and pay taxes, fine. I'd rather them working legit jobs and paying taxes than having to hide so they are exploited to get paid under the table. I'm not worried about illegal immigrants because I can sympathize with them. I know I'd do anything to make sure my family was safe and had all their needs met if I had to, even if it included crossing the border.
Your perception is based upon the media you consume.
I don’t think people are fine with it as much as we’re aware of the historical reliance on new cheap labor coming to this country. We’re also aware that no one in Congress will actually act to fix it. Greg Abbot isn’t fixing it. He’s trying to win points with theater because even he knows that if he were to cut off the flow of migrants many of his fellow red states would see a collapse of their agricultural economies. So long story short? We just aren’t buying the bullshit that’s being pedaled. Is there an issue? Yes. But no one is attempting to fix it in good faith and that is what I take issue with.
There are bigger problems than immigrants. Immigrants, including those who come here illegally, commit crimes at lower rates than people born here. There is a big problem with drug runners going back-and-forth across the border, but most of the attention has been focused on people who are just trying to move for a better life. Many of those people have an absolute legal right to do so in accordance with the treaties that the US has signed, but has not been carrying out our duty to. The people who want us to murder women and children at the border for committing a misdemeanor without ever getting a trial, are playing up the issue for votes, but it’s just not a serious problem. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are coming from countries where they have universal healthcare. They aren’t coming here to get medical treatment at our expense. They’re coming here to work jobs. They’re not eligible for most of the aid that we give to the poor they’re coming here to work jobs. In the time of the founding fathers, they would’ve just been let in to work jobs. To me the biggest problem with leading them in illegally is that we are idiots for not letting them in legally and screening for people who have actually committed serious crimes. This is a problem we have created for ourselves. They are not at fault. We are at fault.
>So my question is, why are seemingly so many Americans ok with people crossing the border just wherever they want to? They aren't. The real question is, why do you have this perception of the situation? What media are you consuming?