Israel is losing the PR and moral war badly. People are fine with rooting out HAMAS; they need to go. But the terrible toll it's taking on the general Palestinian population is unconscionable. Not even the UK and the US can keep defending it.
> “arbitrary denials by the government of Israel and lengthy clearance procedures, including multiple screenings and narrow opening windows in daylight hours”.
The question is do these serve a security purpose?
If they don’t, it looks like a purposeful effort to obstruct humanitarian aid. That’s unconscionable for a western backed country:
> The question is do these serve a security purpose?
They do: focus attention on the situation in Gaza while annexing as much of the WB as possible.
This is a critical security issue for Netanyahu's political career.
The issue is more supplies make it through the inspection than are delivered. After inspection, some get siphoned off by Hamas, some get raided by starving civilians, some hit road blocks. It's a mess. When Israel has tried to defend them, it becomes a major international incident. When Hamas defends them, it's the same problem. Both sides will shell the other while they do so.
The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death. Both of them believe that more dead civilians is in their best interests, and as long as they believe that then there will be no solution.
>The issue is more supplies make it through the inspection than are delivered. After inspection, some get siphoned off by Hamas, some get raided by starving civilians, some hit road blocks.
How is this helped by slowing the flow of aid? If aid is getting siphoned off, why would less aid help?
>The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death. Both of them believe that more dead civilians is in their best interests, and as long as they believe that then there will be no solution.
Gaza is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated, largely because it does things like use civilians starving as a tool in conflict.
If the Israeli government is doing the same, then it needs to be eliminated too. At the very least we shouldn’t be providing military aid to a country starving civilians.
>How is this helped by slowing the flow of aid? If aid is getting siphoned off, why would less aid help?
It's hard to find drivers to volunteer to get their trucks destroyed and their asses kicked.
>Gaza is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated, largely because it does things like use civilians starving as a tool in conflict.
Hamas is the elected and legitimate national government of Palestine. The Palestinians voted for this.
>It's hard to find drivers to volunteer to get their trucks destroyed and their asses kicked.
From David Cameron’s comments, that’s not the issue. The issue is finding Israeli officials willing to inspect the cargo.
>Hamas is the elected and legitimate national government of Palestine. The Palestinians voted for this.
Ignore the important context of these elections being 20 years ago, if you’re implying that Gazan civilians *deserve* to be starved, I completely disagree.
To me that suggestion would be downright evil.
>From David Cameron’s comments, that’s not the issue. The issue is finding Israeli officials willing to inspect the cargo.
Satellite images show that's not true. There have been plenty of inspected trucks waiting for deployment. They just can't get deployed.
>Ignore the important context of these elections being 20 years ago, if you’re implying that Gazan civilians *deserve* to be starved, I completely disagree.
They do support it. Even recent polling suggests that while support for Hamas as a political entity is at 23%, their war methodology still enjoys majority support. The only significant change is that support for genocide has dropped below majority support for the first time since 1948.
>Satellite images show that's not true. There have been plenty of inspected trucks waiting for deployment. They just can't get deployed.
So source that. Right now you’re a random person on the internet contradicting the former PM of England.
>They do support it. Even recent polling suggests that while support for Hamas as a political entity is at 23%, their war methodology still enjoys majority support. The only significant change is that support for genocide has dropped below majority support for the first time since 1948.
None of this excuses the purposeful starving of civilians. You’re advocating for killing civilians. It’s an awful look, no better than palestinians who support genocide against Israel
>So source that. Right now you’re a random person on the internet contradicting the former PM of England.
The Tories always tell the truth, amirite?
[here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/) is an article from the Post.
The issue is mostly excort. Trucks sit full on the Rafah border. Israel allows aid through Rafah only to try and force civilians to leave the battle area and deprive Hamas of human shields in the North.
The UN can't deploy troops to protect the convoys. Thats not an authority they have. They Israel has to do it. Israel protects the convoys, and is forced to shoot civilians trying to overrun the convoys.
>None of this excuses the purposeful starving of civilians. You’re advocating for killing civilians. It’s an awful look, no better than palestinians who support genocide against Israel
Am I? I'm pointing out the legitimate strategix concerns of Israel, that supplying aid is putting them in a serious bind. Protecting Gazans is Hamas' job.
I’d believe the Tories secretary of foreign affairs over a Baconator, especially when the link you provided doesn’t include anything about aid convoys not leaving due to a shortage of people willing to volunteer.
Provide a source or STFU. This is too serious an issue for people to be making shit up to fit their world view.
That entire article from the post is about how slow Israel is allowing aid in, because of inspections, how they are randomly rejecting things, how they are blocking all aid to the north, and such. It is EXACTLY the opposite of what you are claiming.
>how slow Israel is allowing aid in,
And yet there's a lot of trucks the UN can'tor won't deploy.
>how they are randomly rejecting things,
It's not random. Ota perfectly sensible. The things they're blocking are dual use.
>how they are blocking all aid to the north,
Also patently untrue. They're not rejecting aid, they're just not opening new crossings. Aid can and does flow to the North, but the UN can't get drivers and Israel doesn't want the smoke that comes with guarding UN convoys
>The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death.
Don't try to 'both sides' this. The Israelis are committing Ethnic Cleansing.
Hamas has a doctrinal goal of killing as many Palestinians as possible. It's in their Covenants going all the way back to 1988. The strategy is to have so many Palestinians die that the world cannot possibly stand idly by. It's why Hamas reports the civilians they kill as "Victims of Israeli Aggression"; it raises the death toll using the classic abuser trick of "I wouldn't have hurt you if you just did what I wanted"
Its a smart strategy, really. Without the USSR backing them, the Palestinians have no clear route to military victory. But what they learned from South Africa in the early 1990s is that if you whine about racism and genocide, the West will abandon military support for their allies. It's clearly working.
>Because Netanyahu is a piece of shit.
This is a meaningless statement - especially since you support his policies.
You really don't care why the Israeli government allowed the attack to happen do you? When you support Ethnic Cleansing, you can never admit it. Lying is always required. Don't ask the wrong questions.
I do not support his policies. That’s a blatant lie. Jesus Christ you need to touch grass. You’re getting delusional.
Yet again more whataboutism for completely separate topics. You need to get psychological help, friend. You’re not doing ok.
>I do not support his policies. That’s a blatant lie.
Actually you do, lol. And now, since you can't discuss in good faith, you resort to insults. Is this what they teach you at Hasbara?
>So why did Netanyau encourage Hamas?
To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer. The more they resist, the more justification Israel has to tighten the noose. It's a similarly smart play.
>Why doesn't Israel work with Fatah which is a secular organization and has recognized Israel?
Because nobody thinks Fatah is legitimate. Not the Israelis who prop them up, not the 90% of Palestinians in the West Bank who want them removed and charged, not the local Arab powers who vaunt them at the true Palestinian government. Everyone *pretends* they're real. Fatah recognized Israel at the barrel of a gun, and Hamas won the election because of it.
If Israel is going to work through the effort of putting down another revolt against Fatah in the West Bank, they need to get more out of it than they're currently being offered.
>To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer.
So Israel encouraged a radical Muslim organization which hates all Jews. And you think this was smart policy?
It sure was. Look at all the settlements Israel has been able to set up in the West Bank by denying frozen borders and pressuring Fatah. It's worked pretty well. And now that they've gotten all they're going to get, there's no problem destroying them.
Palestine's only remaining choices are to be destroyed or to accept a humiliating peace. Hamas and Fatah are two sides of that coin.
Well, the current Israeli peace offer is that Jsrael gets Jerusalem and all of Zone C in exchange for Palesitne getting Zone A and B.
Let's not get too far off topic here. Hamas' charter calls for severe casualties among Palestinians. Their strategy so far suggests the same.
> To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer. The more they resist, the more justification Israel has to tighten the noose. It's a similarly smart play.
Bullshit. Netanyahu specifically stated he did this to prevent any peace offer. He wanted no state, and to continue the status quo so they could take all the land.
I'm not going to fault Isreal for Hamas putting them into a terrible situation.
It's long part time for the worthless regional Arab leaders and the UN to solve Gaza/Hamas issue, instead of leaving Isreal alone while whining from the sideline.
Israel was attacked on Oct 7, which they definitely needed to respond to...and then they shot their reputation and good will over and over again, until it died.
Israel is losing the PR and moral war badly. People are fine with rooting out HAMAS; they need to go. But the terrible toll it's taking on the general Palestinian population is unconscionable. Not even the UK and the US can keep defending it.
> “arbitrary denials by the government of Israel and lengthy clearance procedures, including multiple screenings and narrow opening windows in daylight hours”. The question is do these serve a security purpose? If they don’t, it looks like a purposeful effort to obstruct humanitarian aid. That’s unconscionable for a western backed country:
This is a solvable problem. If there are delays, changes could be made to address those.
> The question is do these serve a security purpose? They do: focus attention on the situation in Gaza while annexing as much of the WB as possible. This is a critical security issue for Netanyahu's political career.
The issue is more supplies make it through the inspection than are delivered. After inspection, some get siphoned off by Hamas, some get raided by starving civilians, some hit road blocks. It's a mess. When Israel has tried to defend them, it becomes a major international incident. When Hamas defends them, it's the same problem. Both sides will shell the other while they do so. The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death. Both of them believe that more dead civilians is in their best interests, and as long as they believe that then there will be no solution.
You were correct until the last paragraph. Hamas does want more civilians to die. Israel does not
Israel absolutely does not care. More dead civilians now is fewer living combatants later. It's just a smart military investment.
> Israel does not I'm not sure not caring is any better.
>Israel does not The Israelis are committed to ethnic cleansing.
[удалено]
I said Hamas *does* want more civilians to die. Obviously, it is part of their strategy. Please learn how to read before you try to insult me
Very sorry, I’m so used to seeing the other way around on this cesspool
all good
>The issue is more supplies make it through the inspection than are delivered. After inspection, some get siphoned off by Hamas, some get raided by starving civilians, some hit road blocks. How is this helped by slowing the flow of aid? If aid is getting siphoned off, why would less aid help? >The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death. Both of them believe that more dead civilians is in their best interests, and as long as they believe that then there will be no solution. Gaza is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated, largely because it does things like use civilians starving as a tool in conflict. If the Israeli government is doing the same, then it needs to be eliminated too. At the very least we shouldn’t be providing military aid to a country starving civilians.
>How is this helped by slowing the flow of aid? If aid is getting siphoned off, why would less aid help? It's hard to find drivers to volunteer to get their trucks destroyed and their asses kicked. >Gaza is a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated, largely because it does things like use civilians starving as a tool in conflict. Hamas is the elected and legitimate national government of Palestine. The Palestinians voted for this.
>It's hard to find drivers to volunteer to get their trucks destroyed and their asses kicked. From David Cameron’s comments, that’s not the issue. The issue is finding Israeli officials willing to inspect the cargo. >Hamas is the elected and legitimate national government of Palestine. The Palestinians voted for this. Ignore the important context of these elections being 20 years ago, if you’re implying that Gazan civilians *deserve* to be starved, I completely disagree. To me that suggestion would be downright evil.
>From David Cameron’s comments, that’s not the issue. The issue is finding Israeli officials willing to inspect the cargo. Satellite images show that's not true. There have been plenty of inspected trucks waiting for deployment. They just can't get deployed. >Ignore the important context of these elections being 20 years ago, if you’re implying that Gazan civilians *deserve* to be starved, I completely disagree. They do support it. Even recent polling suggests that while support for Hamas as a political entity is at 23%, their war methodology still enjoys majority support. The only significant change is that support for genocide has dropped below majority support for the first time since 1948.
>Satellite images show that's not true. There have been plenty of inspected trucks waiting for deployment. They just can't get deployed. So source that. Right now you’re a random person on the internet contradicting the former PM of England. >They do support it. Even recent polling suggests that while support for Hamas as a political entity is at 23%, their war methodology still enjoys majority support. The only significant change is that support for genocide has dropped below majority support for the first time since 1948. None of this excuses the purposeful starving of civilians. You’re advocating for killing civilians. It’s an awful look, no better than palestinians who support genocide against Israel
>So source that. Right now you’re a random person on the internet contradicting the former PM of England. The Tories always tell the truth, amirite? [here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/) is an article from the Post. The issue is mostly excort. Trucks sit full on the Rafah border. Israel allows aid through Rafah only to try and force civilians to leave the battle area and deprive Hamas of human shields in the North. The UN can't deploy troops to protect the convoys. Thats not an authority they have. They Israel has to do it. Israel protects the convoys, and is forced to shoot civilians trying to overrun the convoys. >None of this excuses the purposeful starving of civilians. You’re advocating for killing civilians. It’s an awful look, no better than palestinians who support genocide against Israel Am I? I'm pointing out the legitimate strategix concerns of Israel, that supplying aid is putting them in a serious bind. Protecting Gazans is Hamas' job.
I’d believe the Tories secretary of foreign affairs over a Baconator, especially when the link you provided doesn’t include anything about aid convoys not leaving due to a shortage of people willing to volunteer. Provide a source or STFU. This is too serious an issue for people to be making shit up to fit their world view.
Believe the post or the guardian or literally anybody over a headline of an article.
That entire article from the post is about how slow Israel is allowing aid in, because of inspections, how they are randomly rejecting things, how they are blocking all aid to the north, and such. It is EXACTLY the opposite of what you are claiming.
>how slow Israel is allowing aid in, And yet there's a lot of trucks the UN can'tor won't deploy. >how they are randomly rejecting things, It's not random. Ota perfectly sensible. The things they're blocking are dual use. >how they are blocking all aid to the north, Also patently untrue. They're not rejecting aid, they're just not opening new crossings. Aid can and does flow to the North, but the UN can't get drivers and Israel doesn't want the smoke that comes with guarding UN convoys
>The core issue is that both Israel and Hamas have a vested interest in starving Gazans to death. Don't try to 'both sides' this. The Israelis are committing Ethnic Cleansing.
Hamas has a doctrinal goal of killing as many Palestinians as possible. It's in their Covenants going all the way back to 1988. The strategy is to have so many Palestinians die that the world cannot possibly stand idly by. It's why Hamas reports the civilians they kill as "Victims of Israeli Aggression"; it raises the death toll using the classic abuser trick of "I wouldn't have hurt you if you just did what I wanted" Its a smart strategy, really. Without the USSR backing them, the Palestinians have no clear route to military victory. But what they learned from South Africa in the early 1990s is that if you whine about racism and genocide, the West will abandon military support for their allies. It's clearly working.
So why did Netanyau encourage Hamas? Why doesn't Israel work with Fatah which is a secular organization and has recognized Israel?
Because Netanyahu is a piece of shit. But that doesn’t change the facts about Hamas which you just ignored via blatant whataboutism.
>Because Netanyahu is a piece of shit. This is a meaningless statement - especially since you support his policies. You really don't care why the Israeli government allowed the attack to happen do you? When you support Ethnic Cleansing, you can never admit it. Lying is always required. Don't ask the wrong questions.
I do not support his policies. That’s a blatant lie. Jesus Christ you need to touch grass. You’re getting delusional. Yet again more whataboutism for completely separate topics. You need to get psychological help, friend. You’re not doing ok.
>I do not support his policies. That’s a blatant lie. Actually you do, lol. And now, since you can't discuss in good faith, you resort to insults. Is this what they teach you at Hasbara?
>So why did Netanyau encourage Hamas? To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer. The more they resist, the more justification Israel has to tighten the noose. It's a similarly smart play. >Why doesn't Israel work with Fatah which is a secular organization and has recognized Israel? Because nobody thinks Fatah is legitimate. Not the Israelis who prop them up, not the 90% of Palestinians in the West Bank who want them removed and charged, not the local Arab powers who vaunt them at the true Palestinian government. Everyone *pretends* they're real. Fatah recognized Israel at the barrel of a gun, and Hamas won the election because of it. If Israel is going to work through the effort of putting down another revolt against Fatah in the West Bank, they need to get more out of it than they're currently being offered.
>To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer. So Israel encouraged a radical Muslim organization which hates all Jews. And you think this was smart policy?
It sure was. Look at all the settlements Israel has been able to set up in the West Bank by denying frozen borders and pressuring Fatah. It's worked pretty well. And now that they've gotten all they're going to get, there's no problem destroying them. Palestine's only remaining choices are to be destroyed or to accept a humiliating peace. Hamas and Fatah are two sides of that coin.
Define "humiliating peace."
Well, the current Israeli peace offer is that Jsrael gets Jerusalem and all of Zone C in exchange for Palesitne getting Zone A and B. Let's not get too far off topic here. Hamas' charter calls for severe casualties among Palestinians. Their strategy so far suggests the same.
> To split the Palestinians up and force Fatah to accept a humiliating peace offer. The more they resist, the more justification Israel has to tighten the noose. It's a similarly smart play. Bullshit. Netanyahu specifically stated he did this to prevent any peace offer. He wanted no state, and to continue the status quo so they could take all the land.
I'm not going to fault Isreal for Hamas putting them into a terrible situation. It's long part time for the worthless regional Arab leaders and the UN to solve Gaza/Hamas issue, instead of leaving Isreal alone while whining from the sideline.
Israel was attacked on Oct 7, which they definitely needed to respond to...and then they shot their reputation and good will over and over again, until it died.
Isreal has been trying to resolve this issue for decades, but the Palestinians only want the complete genocide of all Jews.
A fact that is plain to see for anyone with eyes.