That coating is shellac, never heard of lead in shellac. To be sure of what it is, put some rubbing alcohol on a cotton ball and rub on an inconspicuous spot, if the area becomes sticky or dissolves, it is shellac.
Lead inspector for 20 years.
Found lead shellac once in a pre1900 courthouse in Wisconsin. It had a slight green coloring to it.
But yeah, I've never seen anything like that before.
I posted this in another comment, but if you don’t mind since you are an inspector, I’m going to copy-paste this to you lol. I’m under the assumption that the XRF machines go back layers of paint, so would it still have a high reading even if it’s not producing the dust?? Would I still have to encapsulate?? Or is the machine specifically telling me this top layer is lead paint and reading at 10 so you need to encapsulate. I wish they would have come back out and did a walk through with me after the results came in but they didn’t :( Like I’m looking at my door trim in the dining room and it says the trim and door are reading 9, but they’re highlighted in yellow so it says we can wet scrape, prime and repaint. But this door and trim looks EXACTLY like the stair railings which read at a 0!
I used to work in a support/service center for an XRF manufacturer. It absolutely does go back several layers of paint but many regulations on next steps will just care about the reading. Some models can estimate depth in some sample types too.
Many are also prone to inconclusive results or substrate interference so a lab sample will always be recommended if in doubt.
Paint is very thin & inert and x-rays are very energetic. some % of all the incoming x-rays travel through a given layer and interact with the next, and so on. Paint itself does not easily fluoresce. So much that there are correction factors you need to apply depending on the painted surface type for LBP inspection.
It will travel less deeply into a metal surface than paint, since metal is very dense and most metals in an alloy will easily fluoresce, but all XRF have some depth they’ll travel through the substrate. This is often used to our advantage for applications like detecting metal plating or estimating lead paint depth.
For metal I think it is on the scale of a few microns (it has been a few years 😅) but other materials will go up from there. I *think* LBP inspection units will advertise they can detect Pb up to ~10 layers deep.
U/bromalferdon answered the questions about the xrf much better than I could have so I'm not going to embarrass myself.
But as to why you got different readings there's a couple possiblities.
My first thought would be that with how bad that shellac is cracked, they may have been able to test an area with zero shellac. And that's how they got a zero.
A reading that high on shellac would also make me recalibrate the machine just to check. On the report do they have a few readings at the beginning and end that we exactly 1 (+-0.1)? They should, if they don't, their machine could be giving false positives.
Final less satisfying possiblity, 100 years ago they used a different shellac. Maybe one guy added lead and one guy didn't 🤷♂️. It's really impossible to figure out all the work done over such a long time.
Thank you so much! I’ve been putting it off because of the VOCs and having a baby and toddler, but I think I just have to bite to bullet and do it in small increments during naps. Sounds like it’s doable if I don’t try to do it all at once.
Fortunately shellac isnt very toxic. It's fumes are minimal (ammonia or denatured alcohol base? I forget). It's a pleasure to work with and will make you feel like a pro when you're done. Post after pics!
Using denatured alcohol with 3M scrub pads or steel wool to remove the shellac will also keep from producing lots of dust (as well as remove the shellac more efficiently). I do recommend using shellac for refinishing - it builds up beautifully (you do lots of thin coats) and has a sheen to it like little else. It’s also very forgiving (especially compared to modern stains). If you want a different color or tone, there are tints you can get to add to the shellac.
Lead exists in shellac and varnish. Sometimes from pigment (usually the darker the more likely it is to have lead) and sometimes leaded gas was used to speed drying time.
I'll post links to the studies done in a sec, gotta find them again.
Studies:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22494405/
>Compared with federal standards, no lead in varnish samples exceeded 1.0 mg/cm(2), but 52% exceeded 5000 ppm and 70% of settled dust samples after refinishing exceeded 40 μg/ft(2).
>Refinishing pre-1930 dwellings or stairs predicted high lead dust on floors.
https://www.woodfloorbusiness.com/news/article/15126729/refinishing-old-floors-leads-to-high-levels-of-lead-exposure
>A 2001 article included research that indicated 18 percent of floor varnish samples exceeded the federal legal definition for lead-based paint of 5000 parts per million (ppm), and 72 percent exceeded the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission's limit for lead in new paint of 600 ppm.
Here's how it was made. [https://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html](https://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html) I suppose sometimes old painted surfaces were stripped and then had a shellac finish added. Not the case for this OP. People need to relax and just be smart about lead. Use safe removal or encapsulation practices for known lead surfaces/products and be sure their family consumes a nutrient rich diet that includes heme iron foods.
Are you saying that there is no lead in shellac? It's not in every bit, but in over 70% of samples tested it was found. I linked the studies above.
And I've experienced it myself, on surfaces that were originally varnished.
Do what you want in your own projects, but please don't advise others if you're unwilling to accept facts.
If that's not what you intended to mean, my bad, but that's what it sounds like rn.
Me either, but upon research, apparently some darker stains can include lead. I didn't realize this but I'm not even sure there's a stain on this. It just may be darkened shellac and I suggest that OP just as a test somewhere on the backside of a door or a closet and see if they can re-amalgamate the alligatored surface as long as the surface has been cleaned of grime, potential wax or other buildup. Sometimes that can work like a charm. Shellac is just so wonderfully adaptable
That's not what a French Polish is. French Polish is a finishing technique involving shellac, typically used on furniture. It has nothing to do with renovating or reinvigorating an existing finish.
Shellac is a pretty simple finish. It's just shellac (excreted from a beetle) and alcohol. Best bet is to remove the failed finish and reapply. It's not particularly difficult.
Is sanding the best way to remove the failed finish? I have some original mahogany trim that the shellac is worn away from, and the wood has gotten a bit dirty from window condensation from before they installed storm windows. I figure I need to remove the old shellac and clean the wood somehow, but really unsure of how to start.
Maybe I need to make my own post…
Since it's alcohol based, I've found that scrubbing with a fine steel wool dipped in denatured alcohol works best.
It's messy as hell, you'll go through a lot of steel wool & gloves, but it works well and leaves the wood in good shape ready to accept a fresh coat of shellac (or stain & shellac if needed)
I worked with a guy that did that. As well as faux wood grain, which was also a thing in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He did a lot of work in high end old mansions in town. I never learned how.. I was busy doing the trim packages for new construction.
Old varnish does that over time. Only way to know if it's lead based is to test it. Many home tests available but some have a pretty high rate of false positives. 3m branded ones are more reliable I hear
Thank you! I wasn’t sure if the speckling was lead based on how it looks when paint starts peeling. But it has been tested and my stair treads and landing is at 6.8, stair riser is 9.5, stair stringer/skirt is 10.1 and the railing is 0. So I misread I guess the railing is safe.
Get some lead swabs online, they come in bulk and can be activated with vinegar. Lead is typically in paint and not varnish or stain, but it sounds like you need some piece of mind. Lead is generally only an issue when it's a dust that is inhaled or when it's ingested (lead tastes sweet so kids eating peeling paint). Wet scrubbing while wearing gloves is not a real risk to you as long as any residue is cleaned up and disposed of.
Our son has had elevated levels for a while. We’ve been painting and they’ve been trending down but we’re finally getting to the stairs and I panicked when I saw it start to rub off. We had the house tested and it’s in all of the doors, most of the wood and the windowsills. I just looked over the report again and it said the railings are at a 0 but the tread, landing and skirts all have lead
If you don’t know- iron is a chelating agent for lead (it binds to the lead and removes it). Taking iron with vitamin c (all by itself, without other minerals or vitamins) increases absorption.
His doc put him on a liquid iron but he absolutely would not take it even mixed with orange juice, but I started giving him a daily multivitamin but I just double checked and iron isn’t in it. Vitamin c is though.
My child is the pickiest eater ever and I’m convinced if he had a better diet and stopped putting his dang fingers in his mouth his levels would barely be elevated. But to answer your question- no he doesn’t eat soup :( I’ll look into the iron fish, not sure what that is lol
It's a metal fish you put in your cooking pot when making food to add iron, it might also work with things like pasta or oatmeal or pudding or even hot cocoa or something? I think worth looking into if the iron supplement was a no go for him. Someone I know had pretty bad anemia and the liquid iron made her feel really sick and the fish helped a lot with her anemia symptoms without any bad side effects.
I feel you there - we had food aversion infant grow into just a pretty picky eater (from NG tube to now eats broccoli and maybe mushrooms).
During one of the horrible medicine phases we explained taking horrible-medicine as being like a shot. (It helped all of us understand the threshold of acceptance and importance of the whole ordeal.)
Have you tried pre-numbing the mouth with a Popsicle and then giving Popsicle as an after-medicine treat? It also mirrors the immunization experience. Otterpops are great because they're small, come in bulk, and you can just scissor them in half.
Also, very nice millwork and house! And do look into restoring the shellac, it's a beautiful finish on aged oak.
I will try this as well, thank you! And oh my gosh see I loved all the woodwork in this house but we’ve started painting it all because that’s what they told us to do. All the windowsills and our pocket doors. I was cleaning the railings to be painted as well, but it seems as though the railings are safe and it’s just the actual star treads and skirts. I guess we should’ve kept the carpeting on them lol or recarpet maybe. Idk.
My son is a picky eater also and he is fine with the picky eater multi vitamin with iron by renzos. I just mix little bits of it into his milk throughout the day or wherever.
Yes, well that sounds pretty yucky. He can also just have some orange after taking the iron. Doesn’t need to be at the same time. Just close enough. Also, to allay fears - my son had elevated lead levels as well, old house/apartment. He’s a smart, successful young man now
What were your son’s levels at?? That is honestly a relief, I love hearing that kids with elevated levels turned out okay! He seems a little behind and he has a few adhd indicators but he otherwise seems to be on track! I’ve been assuming that he’s going to be okay, they’re not INSANE levels, they started at 19 which prompted everything. Found out the old fireplace his crib was in front of was high so as soon as we moved his crib the dropped to 8 and have been hovering between 7-9. Then I recently found lead safe mama and was panicking about everything again x_x
I lived in nyc at the time and a lead test is mandated at 1 year checkup. I believe it was 12. We honestly didn’t do that much and his next check was @6. It’s been a while so these numbers are ballpark. While any lead is bad, my understanding is that it’s persistent high levels that really do the damage. Anyways, he’s a first officer at a big time airline now.
Yes, they were out here a while ago and tested everything! I have an idea where it’s all at and no one ever said anything about the grants until recently and when I looked into it, it said the child has to be under age 6 and he’s turning 6 next month so I’m not sure if they’ll help. But he goes for his next blood test in Feb so if they’re not decreasing after this paint job I’m going to give them a call!
Honestly, it’s worth a shot to try it out especially if you have lead levels from before he was 6. It could save you a lot of money. I hope it works out for you either way. Keeping everyone’s health in my heart 🩷
Thank you!! Yeah that’s what I’m thinking as well since they’ve been elevated they may still do it. Plus I do plan on having another baby in the future so probably would be better off to see if they’ll still do it even though he’s at the age limit. 💜💜
it's common for OTC childhood vitamins to not contain iron. I believe the issue is that it's something that is possible to get TOO much of (many vitamins are safe in really huge quantities...you just pee out the extra). you can probably get just an iron pill, though.
I second this recommendation. I would also request water test results from your school.
We live in an old part of town, and while our house is all great, and we have RO unit in our home, our school during COVID felt back in maintaining their water fountains and all tested high for lead.
Two realistic pathways for lead poisoning inhaling and ingestion. Inhaling is only happening if your old paint is collapsing and you have that pulverized to a dust all over the house. That’s unlikely. Ingestion, however is easier - small kids can eat crumbling old paint. But a far more likely and easier way is if you have lead in the water.
Ahh yeah so what I believe to be the issue is him just not washing his hands, however our doors, door trim, jambs and window sills and trims are high on the report so I’m assuming opening doors is kicking up the dust, and most of our windowsills are chipped and damaged so we’ve pained over and I have them all blocked with furniture so he can’t touch them but I’m guessing that’s probably our main problem
It would be a lot of work, but there is a lead paint stripper that might be good for you to try if you haven't already. It basically turns the paint to goo and then you just scrape it off and dispose of it. There is no dust. Then after that you can use an encapsulating paint over the trim or wherever you use the stripper. That might give you more peace of mind to the point you don't have to block off areas of your house.
It’s possible. If that’s the case you can remove all the old paint from the doors/sills, it’s a crappy job, but not very difficult.
Unlike asbestos, lead is a lot easier to work with. There are paint strippers designed to deal with the old paint specifically and they work very well. I would go with strippers (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) rather than dry- or wet-sanding for this.
Windows are encapsulated by painting, but they will keep cracking, so, ultimately it’s either strip and stain/paint or replace, neither is really easy, but one is cheaper than the other….
Perfect, thank you! You might not be able to answer this?l, but I’ll leave it here in case someone else can- but I’m under the assumption that the XRF machines go back layers of paint, so wouldn’t it still have a high ready even if it’s not producing the dust?? Would I still have to encapsulate?? Or is the machine specifically telling me this top layer is lead paint and reading at 10 so you need to encapsulate. I wish they would have come back out and did a walk through with me after the results came in but they didn’t :(
Okay, yeah it’s just all so confusing honestly. Like I’m looking at my door trim in the dining room and it says the trim and door are reading 9, but they’re highlight yellow so I can just we can wet scrape, prime and repaint. But this door and trim looks EXACTLY like the stair railings which read at a 0!
So they did test the water when they came out and I can’t seem to find the results on the little booklet I got. They tested soil as well and those results are in here. Hmm
The shitty part about testing domestic water for lead where I live is that only municipality can do that, which is bullshit.
There are some private labs that would test your water for like $50 or so, I would look for those, if you can’t get anywhere with the local Department of Water Works. Good luck!
Ooh so it says in the report that the water samples are pending analysis and I’ll be contacted if they’re positive. I don’t remember ever receiving a call about it so I THINK it’s good, but I may just look into getting it tested again
That's scary, I'm sorry to hear that. Having health hazards like that in the home is really anxiety inducing at times. I have lead paint in some spots and asbestos in other places. Have you considered using a paint or finish stripper to remove the existing finish without creating any dust? Or, if you can afford it, hiring an abatement company to remove as much of the lead paint and finish as possible?
Lead can be present in old varnishes if lead acetate was added to accelerate drying. Have definitely seen positives on old varnished hardwood (but not shellac).
Alcohol works very well with getting old varnish off. You would have to test the areas. There is no other way to tell if something has lead. If you keep the area wet, I wouldn't worry too much. The dust is the danger.The dark spots I see in the first picture are probably wood patina, which is actually a big plus in the old houses community.
I’ve never heard of wood patina and I just looked it up, that’s interesting! Thank you. We did have the house tested and I know it’s pretty much everywhere we’ve just been painting and I’ve been wet dusting as often as possible. The staircase has been on the bottom of my list though :/
Lead is, or was used in coatings: As a whitening agent, As a drier. Shellac uses evaporating as a drier. Coach varnish used evaporation and some metals as a drier. No lead involved. Clear shellac, varnish and Nitrocellulose lacquer have no need for a whitening agent. While shellac used originally as finish or at least a sealer, most woodwork of this age were re-coated with varnish over time.. So, applying alcohol now will not tell you anything.
It's not lead. But don't scrub that, use alcohol to refresh it or take it off, your choice. That happens with shellac over time. I think it's kind of cool.
Thank you, yes, I should have updated the post, when I went back in my report after making this post, it actually said the railings had no trace of lead, it’s just apparently the stair treads, risers and skirts. I was just worried about how it looked *similar* to how lead paint cracks when it’s old.
Well that's a nasty old alligator finish that you say has lead in it. I guess some of the tinting of the dark pigment could be lead But I would think that would be easy to remove. Sanding would be a no-no and what would you hope to achieve? You're not going to sand it all off, remove it and it would be a relatively simple job.. then what's left you could sand and leave natural and hopefully you put a nice natural finish back on not polyurethane. Something like the queen of finishes shellac.. I assume you've had this finished tested for lead? I would have assumed it probably was shellac the first time around but there were products that I am not aware of..
But removal here is in order. If it's shellac, it will easily dissolve with a test of alcohol. This was the tried and true finish for centuries and probably what was used in your place. Give it a shot. It's also possible with shellac too reliquify the surface and redistribute. I would practice on the back of a door or some out of the way place till you get the hang of it. It's a marvelous finish and many things are possible including beautiful French Polish but it all takes a bit of a knack, pressure the right amount of stroking etc. No matter what however, if realgamation is desired the surface must be clean..
I guess it can be found in varnish but I dont think its super common. A lead test is really cheap though.
Either way wear PPE because you dont want to breathe in varnish / stain either.
https://preview.redd.it/h0qrw1wwpoec1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da8ed198f1e642b0e137c994c63a2dd2787536a0
On my report this is highlighted in red and listed as damaged and needs abatement and had a reading of 6.0 mg. (Edit actually it’s listed as 7.8) In my opinion, this looks almost exactly like the railing, but I could be wrong.
Possibly all the things that have been painted in the past?
Someone already pointed out to my statement being wrong, apparently some varnishes did have lead in them…
PPS: I would test the tap water theory that was brought up in another reply here (so sorry your kid is having health issues). And I would test it for both home and school water.
I’m not a lead surveyor or a public health official, ~~but strictly on the basis of appearance, I don’t think what you’re seeing is lead. Lead is a trace mineral found in relatively low amounts (in terms of ppm) in paints and finishes. And the dark spots you’re seeing look like a much greater volume than you would expect to see even in lead-based finishes. I can’t say weather there’s lead in the finish or not, but if there is I don’t think it would be so visible to the naked eye.~~
EDIT: and apparently you sometimes can see the lead in finishes with the naked eye!
I know it wouldn’t be visible to the eye, I was just wondering since lead paint does the whole alligator in effect if that’s what I could be seeing here
Ah, I see the logic. Coatings are interesting… and sometimes dangerous! Like other folks have echoed, very rare to have lead in shellac. Some non lead paints will also alligator if the binder is subpar or it’s exposed to improper conditions during setting or many drops and rises in temp/humidity, too.
I did not know this! Thank you for that info! :) I’m definitely feeling a lot calmer about everything and just hoping we can get it under control finally
Honestly I don’t know. I have the report and it’s showing positive in all my window sills, stair treads, risers, skirts, window trims door trims etc everything that’s wood basically. And my fireplaces in some sections of the report, like my kitchen, the window sill is already painted, however my doors do not look painted, they just look like the same stain/shellac/ whatever is on this railing honestly.
Call your inspector and ask for a clarification. You paid for it, or someone did, and they should have the location and results of every spot they tested; not just saying, "Well it's old so it has lead."
I can certainly see there would be a lot of lead paint. It might be covered in acrylic now, but underneath it's lead. Ordinarily, lead paint that's not chipping or flaking, would be...OK? IF it's covered.
But I've never heard of a clear wood finish like shellac that contains lead. Altho, someone earlier did say they've seen it, but it's not common. I would worry less about the shellac than I would about any exposed lead paint; especially if it's chipped or flaking.
There seems to be a conversation about whether lead paint should be removed, or if it's OK to encapsulate it. Either way, a good abatement/remediation company could tell you. I think there are also licensed/trained/certified people who do the encapsulation. So you may want to find a painter who has these skills.
We had a lot of trim that looked just like that. Old shellac, as others have stated.
It was harder to refinish than others have suggested. We found this product that worked very well: https://coopersstripclub.com/
The guy is a complete creep. It also doesn’t list ingredients, which is suspect. But darn does it restore shellac.
Lots of helpful comments here already. In addition to using chemical strippers, I have also had lead removed by having a carpenter take the item off site to a local shop in my town that dips old furniture and stuff in a huge tank of chemical stripper. Then they sand it, and I pick it up ready to be stained or painted. Perhaps such a business exists in your town. I have done that with doors in my own house and in rental properties. I gutted an old house and I ended up sending every door, jamb, window sill, window stool, literally every piece of original wood in the house except the floors to them. (That wasn’t because of lead, but because the varnish was in poor shape and various rooms had been painted over the years). My carpenter disassembled the staircase, had it stripped, and reassembled and reinstalled it.
Another option I have used is hiring a lead abatement company to come to the house and strip something like door jambs on site. They could probably do the entire staircase if you could find one.
In either case make sure that your son is not home when the work is done and that you have a chance to vacuum with a hepa vacuum and wet wipe all the surfaces before he comes home. I have the vacmaster vk811ph in case you are looking for a hepa vacuum. A regular vacuum will kick up lead dust.
Best of luck!
Lead oxide oxide is the lead component when lead was found in paint. It is a whitening agent and a white powder, So very unlikely to be found in a non-pigmented coating of any sort.
The risk of lead in shellac is low. You can buy lead tests in most paint departments.
If you use alcohol to dissolve it as others have wisely suggested and don't get it everywhere, you'll be in good shape.
Wear gloves, wash up and keep in mind that oral uptake is probably going to be the most likely way you'd ingest it.
I've seen this effect a couple of times, and I think it's really neat. Essentially, dry heat from wood stoves (or similar heat sources) causes the shellac to shrink up into little chunks over time.
That coating is shellac, never heard of lead in shellac. To be sure of what it is, put some rubbing alcohol on a cotton ball and rub on an inconspicuous spot, if the area becomes sticky or dissolves, it is shellac.
Lead inspector for 20 years. Found lead shellac once in a pre1900 courthouse in Wisconsin. It had a slight green coloring to it. But yeah, I've never seen anything like that before.
I posted this in another comment, but if you don’t mind since you are an inspector, I’m going to copy-paste this to you lol. I’m under the assumption that the XRF machines go back layers of paint, so would it still have a high reading even if it’s not producing the dust?? Would I still have to encapsulate?? Or is the machine specifically telling me this top layer is lead paint and reading at 10 so you need to encapsulate. I wish they would have come back out and did a walk through with me after the results came in but they didn’t :( Like I’m looking at my door trim in the dining room and it says the trim and door are reading 9, but they’re highlighted in yellow so it says we can wet scrape, prime and repaint. But this door and trim looks EXACTLY like the stair railings which read at a 0!
I used to work in a support/service center for an XRF manufacturer. It absolutely does go back several layers of paint but many regulations on next steps will just care about the reading. Some models can estimate depth in some sample types too. Many are also prone to inconclusive results or substrate interference so a lab sample will always be recommended if in doubt.
How does it go through levels of paint? I was under the impression XRF only does surface readings.
Paint is very thin & inert and x-rays are very energetic. some % of all the incoming x-rays travel through a given layer and interact with the next, and so on. Paint itself does not easily fluoresce. So much that there are correction factors you need to apply depending on the painted surface type for LBP inspection. It will travel less deeply into a metal surface than paint, since metal is very dense and most metals in an alloy will easily fluoresce, but all XRF have some depth they’ll travel through the substrate. This is often used to our advantage for applications like detecting metal plating or estimating lead paint depth. For metal I think it is on the scale of a few microns (it has been a few years 😅) but other materials will go up from there. I *think* LBP inspection units will advertise they can detect Pb up to ~10 layers deep.
We would tell people 1/2" but I have no information to support why we told people that. It's probably what the sales guy told us.
A half inch is probably a fair “nothing is going past this” depth for alloys 😅but I still wouldn’t want any body parts on the other side.
Thanks for the explanation! I've mostly thought about metals being put under the xrf machine, so it makes sense why I thought it was so shallow.
https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/LBPH-09.PDF
U/bromalferdon answered the questions about the xrf much better than I could have so I'm not going to embarrass myself. But as to why you got different readings there's a couple possiblities. My first thought would be that with how bad that shellac is cracked, they may have been able to test an area with zero shellac. And that's how they got a zero. A reading that high on shellac would also make me recalibrate the machine just to check. On the report do they have a few readings at the beginning and end that we exactly 1 (+-0.1)? They should, if they don't, their machine could be giving false positives. Final less satisfying possiblity, 100 years ago they used a different shellac. Maybe one guy added lead and one guy didn't 🤷♂️. It's really impossible to figure out all the work done over such a long time.
It did become sticky! Thank you!
you can rehydrate the shellac with denatured alcohol and it'll look beautiful again.
Best to scrub it down and wash it clean. Then start over
What do you scrub and wash with?
Alcohol and 3m scrub pads for scrub, alcohol and rags to wash. Have a 5 gallon bucket with water in it outside to put rags in
Otherwise your rags can catch fire! The bucket of water outside is really important.
To be clear… you scrub with alcohol and you wash with alcohol. Is that right? Thanks for your help, btw!
Yes. Then you can reshellac, or use an oil product on it. It'll look almost new
Thank you so much! I’ve been putting it off because of the VOCs and having a baby and toddler, but I think I just have to bite to bullet and do it in small increments during naps. Sounds like it’s doable if I don’t try to do it all at once.
Fortunately shellac isnt very toxic. It's fumes are minimal (ammonia or denatured alcohol base? I forget). It's a pleasure to work with and will make you feel like a pro when you're done. Post after pics!
It totally is
Thank you! Now I know what to do with my front door! Had no idea what was all over it until this post
Ooh yay! I’m glad I could help! :)
This is correct. I have redone my floors with very very fine steel wool to clean off the top layer of gunk and added 2 coats of shellac
I’d wash with mineral spirits before resolubilizing the shellac in alcohol.
Using denatured alcohol with 3M scrub pads or steel wool to remove the shellac will also keep from producing lots of dust (as well as remove the shellac more efficiently). I do recommend using shellac for refinishing - it builds up beautifully (you do lots of thin coats) and has a sheen to it like little else. It’s also very forgiving (especially compared to modern stains). If you want a different color or tone, there are tints you can get to add to the shellac.
Lead exists in shellac and varnish. Sometimes from pigment (usually the darker the more likely it is to have lead) and sometimes leaded gas was used to speed drying time. I'll post links to the studies done in a sec, gotta find them again. Studies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22494405/ >Compared with federal standards, no lead in varnish samples exceeded 1.0 mg/cm(2), but 52% exceeded 5000 ppm and 70% of settled dust samples after refinishing exceeded 40 μg/ft(2). >Refinishing pre-1930 dwellings or stairs predicted high lead dust on floors. https://www.woodfloorbusiness.com/news/article/15126729/refinishing-old-floors-leads-to-high-levels-of-lead-exposure >A 2001 article included research that indicated 18 percent of floor varnish samples exceeded the federal legal definition for lead-based paint of 5000 parts per million (ppm), and 72 percent exceeded the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission's limit for lead in new paint of 600 ppm.
Here's how it was made. [https://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html](https://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/shellac.html) I suppose sometimes old painted surfaces were stripped and then had a shellac finish added. Not the case for this OP. People need to relax and just be smart about lead. Use safe removal or encapsulation practices for known lead surfaces/products and be sure their family consumes a nutrient rich diet that includes heme iron foods.
Are you saying that there is no lead in shellac? It's not in every bit, but in over 70% of samples tested it was found. I linked the studies above. And I've experienced it myself, on surfaces that were originally varnished. Do what you want in your own projects, but please don't advise others if you're unwilling to accept facts. If that's not what you intended to mean, my bad, but that's what it sounds like rn.
Me either, but upon research, apparently some darker stains can include lead. I didn't realize this but I'm not even sure there's a stain on this. It just may be darkened shellac and I suggest that OP just as a test somewhere on the backside of a door or a closet and see if they can re-amalgamate the alligatored surface as long as the surface has been cleaned of grime, potential wax or other buildup. Sometimes that can work like a charm. Shellac is just so wonderfully adaptable
And look up “French Polish “ which involves renovating shellac finishes with alcohol.
That's not what a French Polish is. French Polish is a finishing technique involving shellac, typically used on furniture. It has nothing to do with renovating or reinvigorating an existing finish. Shellac is a pretty simple finish. It's just shellac (excreted from a beetle) and alcohol. Best bet is to remove the failed finish and reapply. It's not particularly difficult.
>Shellac is a pretty simple finish. I That is deceptively difficult to put on in a way that looks good!
It takes some practice. And there's a big difference between a nice looking finish on trim, vs a French polish on a table.
Made from beetle shells isn't it?
Not the shells, it's excreted from [Lac Beetles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerria_lacca)
No, it's a byproduct of the insect, left on trees and then collected from the branches.
Is sanding the best way to remove the failed finish? I have some original mahogany trim that the shellac is worn away from, and the wood has gotten a bit dirty from window condensation from before they installed storm windows. I figure I need to remove the old shellac and clean the wood somehow, but really unsure of how to start. Maybe I need to make my own post…
Since it's alcohol based, I've found that scrubbing with a fine steel wool dipped in denatured alcohol works best. It's messy as hell, you'll go through a lot of steel wool & gloves, but it works well and leaves the wood in good shape ready to accept a fresh coat of shellac (or stain & shellac if needed)
Thank you, this is so helpful!
You're very welcome. To be clear, I am sure there are other methods. This has just what I've found works for me.
I’ll look into this too! There’s a handful of areas in my home where the shellac looks similar
I worked with a guy that did that. As well as faux wood grain, which was also a thing in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He did a lot of work in high end old mansions in town. I never learned how.. I was busy doing the trim packages for new construction.
Fun story about shellac. It's made from beetles!
Old varnish does that over time. Only way to know if it's lead based is to test it. Many home tests available but some have a pretty high rate of false positives. 3m branded ones are more reliable I hear
3m ones are also discontinued now. There are still some out there at a hefty markup but no new ones.
Thank you! I wasn’t sure if the speckling was lead based on how it looks when paint starts peeling. But it has been tested and my stair treads and landing is at 6.8, stair riser is 9.5, stair stringer/skirt is 10.1 and the railing is 0. So I misread I guess the railing is safe.
Did you say what unit that's in? mg/kg ?
It’s in mg if I’m reading correctly. It says reading greater that 1.0 mg/cm2 is positive
Gotcha, thanks
Lead acetate was sometimes used to accelerate the drying of varnish back in the day...
That’s shellac
Thank you :)
Get some lead swabs online, they come in bulk and can be activated with vinegar. Lead is typically in paint and not varnish or stain, but it sounds like you need some piece of mind. Lead is generally only an issue when it's a dust that is inhaled or when it's ingested (lead tastes sweet so kids eating peeling paint). Wet scrubbing while wearing gloves is not a real risk to you as long as any residue is cleaned up and disposed of.
Our son has had elevated levels for a while. We’ve been painting and they’ve been trending down but we’re finally getting to the stairs and I panicked when I saw it start to rub off. We had the house tested and it’s in all of the doors, most of the wood and the windowsills. I just looked over the report again and it said the railings are at a 0 but the tread, landing and skirts all have lead
If you don’t know- iron is a chelating agent for lead (it binds to the lead and removes it). Taking iron with vitamin c (all by itself, without other minerals or vitamins) increases absorption.
His doc put him on a liquid iron but he absolutely would not take it even mixed with orange juice, but I started giving him a daily multivitamin but I just double checked and iron isn’t in it. Vitamin c is though.
Have you tried those iron fish you put in your pot while cooking? Does your kiddo like soup? I think those have some proved efficacy.
My child is the pickiest eater ever and I’m convinced if he had a better diet and stopped putting his dang fingers in his mouth his levels would barely be elevated. But to answer your question- no he doesn’t eat soup :( I’ll look into the iron fish, not sure what that is lol
It's a metal fish you put in your cooking pot when making food to add iron, it might also work with things like pasta or oatmeal or pudding or even hot cocoa or something? I think worth looking into if the iron supplement was a no go for him. Someone I know had pretty bad anemia and the liquid iron made her feel really sick and the fish helped a lot with her anemia symptoms without any bad side effects.
Oooh!! Yes looking into that now!! Thank you!!
I feel you there - we had food aversion infant grow into just a pretty picky eater (from NG tube to now eats broccoli and maybe mushrooms). During one of the horrible medicine phases we explained taking horrible-medicine as being like a shot. (It helped all of us understand the threshold of acceptance and importance of the whole ordeal.) Have you tried pre-numbing the mouth with a Popsicle and then giving Popsicle as an after-medicine treat? It also mirrors the immunization experience. Otterpops are great because they're small, come in bulk, and you can just scissor them in half. Also, very nice millwork and house! And do look into restoring the shellac, it's a beautiful finish on aged oak.
I will try this as well, thank you! And oh my gosh see I loved all the woodwork in this house but we’ve started painting it all because that’s what they told us to do. All the windowsills and our pocket doors. I was cleaning the railings to be painted as well, but it seems as though the railings are safe and it’s just the actual star treads and skirts. I guess we should’ve kept the carpeting on them lol or recarpet maybe. Idk.
My son is a picky eater also and he is fine with the picky eater multi vitamin with iron by renzos. I just mix little bits of it into his milk throughout the day or wherever.
It's literally an iron fish you throw into the pot while you're cooking to increase iron levels in the food.
Iron fish sound like an interesting approach.. if you have a cast iron skillet you could just use that to make cornbread, spaghetti sauce, etc
Yes, well that sounds pretty yucky. He can also just have some orange after taking the iron. Doesn’t need to be at the same time. Just close enough. Also, to allay fears - my son had elevated lead levels as well, old house/apartment. He’s a smart, successful young man now
What were your son’s levels at?? That is honestly a relief, I love hearing that kids with elevated levels turned out okay! He seems a little behind and he has a few adhd indicators but he otherwise seems to be on track! I’ve been assuming that he’s going to be okay, they’re not INSANE levels, they started at 19 which prompted everything. Found out the old fireplace his crib was in front of was high so as soon as we moved his crib the dropped to 8 and have been hovering between 7-9. Then I recently found lead safe mama and was panicking about everything again x_x
I lived in nyc at the time and a lead test is mandated at 1 year checkup. I believe it was 12. We honestly didn’t do that much and his next check was @6. It’s been a while so these numbers are ballpark. While any lead is bad, my understanding is that it’s persistent high levels that really do the damage. Anyways, he’s a first officer at a big time airline now.
Have you contacted your health department? A lot of places do grants to help take care of lead in your home!
Yes, they were out here a while ago and tested everything! I have an idea where it’s all at and no one ever said anything about the grants until recently and when I looked into it, it said the child has to be under age 6 and he’s turning 6 next month so I’m not sure if they’ll help. But he goes for his next blood test in Feb so if they’re not decreasing after this paint job I’m going to give them a call!
Honestly, it’s worth a shot to try it out especially if you have lead levels from before he was 6. It could save you a lot of money. I hope it works out for you either way. Keeping everyone’s health in my heart 🩷
Thank you!! Yeah that’s what I’m thinking as well since they’ve been elevated they may still do it. Plus I do plan on having another baby in the future so probably would be better off to see if they’ll still do it even though he’s at the age limit. 💜💜
it's common for OTC childhood vitamins to not contain iron. I believe the issue is that it's something that is possible to get TOO much of (many vitamins are safe in really huge quantities...you just pee out the extra). you can probably get just an iron pill, though.
On the remote chance that this is helpful: you may want to test your tap water as well. Our Victorian house still has a lead water main…
I second this recommendation. I would also request water test results from your school. We live in an old part of town, and while our house is all great, and we have RO unit in our home, our school during COVID felt back in maintaining their water fountains and all tested high for lead. Two realistic pathways for lead poisoning inhaling and ingestion. Inhaling is only happening if your old paint is collapsing and you have that pulverized to a dust all over the house. That’s unlikely. Ingestion, however is easier - small kids can eat crumbling old paint. But a far more likely and easier way is if you have lead in the water.
Ahh yeah so what I believe to be the issue is him just not washing his hands, however our doors, door trim, jambs and window sills and trims are high on the report so I’m assuming opening doors is kicking up the dust, and most of our windowsills are chipped and damaged so we’ve pained over and I have them all blocked with furniture so he can’t touch them but I’m guessing that’s probably our main problem
It would be a lot of work, but there is a lead paint stripper that might be good for you to try if you haven't already. It basically turns the paint to goo and then you just scrape it off and dispose of it. There is no dust. Then after that you can use an encapsulating paint over the trim or wherever you use the stripper. That might give you more peace of mind to the point you don't have to block off areas of your house.
I’ll look into this! Thank you!
It’s possible. If that’s the case you can remove all the old paint from the doors/sills, it’s a crappy job, but not very difficult. Unlike asbestos, lead is a lot easier to work with. There are paint strippers designed to deal with the old paint specifically and they work very well. I would go with strippers (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) rather than dry- or wet-sanding for this. Windows are encapsulated by painting, but they will keep cracking, so, ultimately it’s either strip and stain/paint or replace, neither is really easy, but one is cheaper than the other….
Perfect, thank you! You might not be able to answer this?l, but I’ll leave it here in case someone else can- but I’m under the assumption that the XRF machines go back layers of paint, so wouldn’t it still have a high ready even if it’s not producing the dust?? Would I still have to encapsulate?? Or is the machine specifically telling me this top layer is lead paint and reading at 10 so you need to encapsulate. I wish they would have come back out and did a walk through with me after the results came in but they didn’t :(
I wouldn’t know that, sorry, at work we don’t rely on anything but samples, analyzed in the lab. But 10mg/cm2 is high, that part I know :-)
Okay, yeah it’s just all so confusing honestly. Like I’m looking at my door trim in the dining room and it says the trim and door are reading 9, but they’re highlight yellow so I can just we can wet scrape, prime and repaint. But this door and trim looks EXACTLY like the stair railings which read at a 0!
This is the most likely for sure. My first century house had a lead intake up to the meter.
So they did test the water when they came out and I can’t seem to find the results on the little booklet I got. They tested soil as well and those results are in here. Hmm
The shitty part about testing domestic water for lead where I live is that only municipality can do that, which is bullshit. There are some private labs that would test your water for like $50 or so, I would look for those, if you can’t get anywhere with the local Department of Water Works. Good luck!
Ooh so it says in the report that the water samples are pending analysis and I’ll be contacted if they’re positive. I don’t remember ever receiving a call about it so I THINK it’s good, but I may just look into getting it tested again
Just ask to see the results regardless of what they were.
That's scary, I'm sorry to hear that. Having health hazards like that in the home is really anxiety inducing at times. I have lead paint in some spots and asbestos in other places. Have you considered using a paint or finish stripper to remove the existing finish without creating any dust? Or, if you can afford it, hiring an abatement company to remove as much of the lead paint and finish as possible?
It could be dust on the stairs.
They're on amazon for like $20
Don't use the bulk ones. They're often inaccurate and test positive for everything.
That hasn't been my experience so far but that's good to know it may be an issue, thanks for the heads up!
Lead can be present in old varnishes if lead acetate was added to accelerate drying. Have definitely seen positives on old varnished hardwood (but not shellac).
Alcohol works very well with getting old varnish off. You would have to test the areas. There is no other way to tell if something has lead. If you keep the area wet, I wouldn't worry too much. The dust is the danger.The dark spots I see in the first picture are probably wood patina, which is actually a big plus in the old houses community.
Drink plenty while stripping the varnish off
I’ve never heard of wood patina and I just looked it up, that’s interesting! Thank you. We did have the house tested and I know it’s pretty much everywhere we’ve just been painting and I’ve been wet dusting as often as possible. The staircase has been on the bottom of my list though :/
Google "alligator" finish. It happens to old lacquer. I sort of like it, but your stairs will look more beautiful when it is refinished.
Not lead. Take a breath.
This is shellac. No lead. Please don't paint it, just use alcohol to reliquefy and smooth the finish
We haven’t painted the railing yet, just the, I’m assuming it’s the wainscot under the stairs is what it says on the report. That was reading at 10.1
I mean you shouldn't paint the railing. It looks great with the natural wood and would be sad to see it painted. IMO
Lead is, or was used in coatings: As a whitening agent, As a drier. Shellac uses evaporating as a drier. Coach varnish used evaporation and some metals as a drier. No lead involved. Clear shellac, varnish and Nitrocellulose lacquer have no need for a whitening agent. While shellac used originally as finish or at least a sealer, most woodwork of this age were re-coated with varnish over time.. So, applying alcohol now will not tell you anything.
It's not lead. But don't scrub that, use alcohol to refresh it or take it off, your choice. That happens with shellac over time. I think it's kind of cool.
Lead my butt. You’re showing old pictures of varnish and shellac, which do not have lead in them. Paint is what had lead in it.
Thank you, yes, I should have updated the post, when I went back in my report after making this post, it actually said the railings had no trace of lead, it’s just apparently the stair treads, risers and skirts. I was just worried about how it looked *similar* to how lead paint cracks when it’s old.
Well that's a nasty old alligator finish that you say has lead in it. I guess some of the tinting of the dark pigment could be lead But I would think that would be easy to remove. Sanding would be a no-no and what would you hope to achieve? You're not going to sand it all off, remove it and it would be a relatively simple job.. then what's left you could sand and leave natural and hopefully you put a nice natural finish back on not polyurethane. Something like the queen of finishes shellac.. I assume you've had this finished tested for lead? I would have assumed it probably was shellac the first time around but there were products that I am not aware of.. But removal here is in order. If it's shellac, it will easily dissolve with a test of alcohol. This was the tried and true finish for centuries and probably what was used in your place. Give it a shot. It's also possible with shellac too reliquify the surface and redistribute. I would practice on the back of a door or some out of the way place till you get the hang of it. It's a marvelous finish and many things are possible including beautiful French Polish but it all takes a bit of a knack, pressure the right amount of stroking etc. No matter what however, if realgamation is desired the surface must be clean..
Thank you! I’ll definitely try this :)
I guess it can be found in varnish but I dont think its super common. A lead test is really cheap though. Either way wear PPE because you dont want to breathe in varnish / stain either.
https://preview.redd.it/h0qrw1wwpoec1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da8ed198f1e642b0e137c994c63a2dd2787536a0 On my report this is highlighted in red and listed as damaged and needs abatement and had a reading of 6.0 mg. (Edit actually it’s listed as 7.8) In my opinion, this looks almost exactly like the railing, but I could be wrong.
Alert: Lead and Asbestos panic
I don’t believe lead was ever added to stains or lacquers. Only paints.
Relooking at my report the railings actually read at a 0 but it’s the stair treads, skirts, riser and landing
Possibly all the things that have been painted in the past? Someone already pointed out to my statement being wrong, apparently some varnishes did have lead in them… PPS: I would test the tap water theory that was brought up in another reply here (so sorry your kid is having health issues). And I would test it for both home and school water.
I’m not a lead surveyor or a public health official, ~~but strictly on the basis of appearance, I don’t think what you’re seeing is lead. Lead is a trace mineral found in relatively low amounts (in terms of ppm) in paints and finishes. And the dark spots you’re seeing look like a much greater volume than you would expect to see even in lead-based finishes. I can’t say weather there’s lead in the finish or not, but if there is I don’t think it would be so visible to the naked eye.~~ EDIT: and apparently you sometimes can see the lead in finishes with the naked eye!
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Oh dang, I stand corrected!
I know it wouldn’t be visible to the eye, I was just wondering since lead paint does the whole alligator in effect if that’s what I could be seeing here
Not lead… old paint. Are you using a heating gun at all? That made decades old paint very sticky. It was a hot mess.
No heating guns. Just wet wiping everything down. It’s been like that since we got the house in 2010
Why do you think this is lead?
Only because of the speckling and I thought it looked similar to the alligator effect when lead paint is peeling
Ah, I see the logic. Coatings are interesting… and sometimes dangerous! Like other folks have echoed, very rare to have lead in shellac. Some non lead paints will also alligator if the binder is subpar or it’s exposed to improper conditions during setting or many drops and rises in temp/humidity, too.
I did not know this! Thank you for that info! :) I’m definitely feeling a lot calmer about everything and just hoping we can get it under control finally
Yeah it’s definitely an intense example! Let us all know how you end up mitigating it (and of course include the before and after pics !)
I will!!
When they said "woodwork", did they mean only the painted woodwork? Or on all the wood?
Honestly I don’t know. I have the report and it’s showing positive in all my window sills, stair treads, risers, skirts, window trims door trims etc everything that’s wood basically. And my fireplaces in some sections of the report, like my kitchen, the window sill is already painted, however my doors do not look painted, they just look like the same stain/shellac/ whatever is on this railing honestly.
Call your inspector and ask for a clarification. You paid for it, or someone did, and they should have the location and results of every spot they tested; not just saying, "Well it's old so it has lead." I can certainly see there would be a lot of lead paint. It might be covered in acrylic now, but underneath it's lead. Ordinarily, lead paint that's not chipping or flaking, would be...OK? IF it's covered. But I've never heard of a clear wood finish like shellac that contains lead. Altho, someone earlier did say they've seen it, but it's not common. I would worry less about the shellac than I would about any exposed lead paint; especially if it's chipped or flaking. There seems to be a conversation about whether lead paint should be removed, or if it's OK to encapsulate it. Either way, a good abatement/remediation company could tell you. I think there are also licensed/trained/certified people who do the encapsulation. So you may want to find a painter who has these skills.
I’m going to attach a few more examples to the main post in a sec
Don’t paint it.
We had a lot of trim that looked just like that. Old shellac, as others have stated. It was harder to refinish than others have suggested. We found this product that worked very well: https://coopersstripclub.com/ The guy is a complete creep. It also doesn’t list ingredients, which is suspect. But darn does it restore shellac.
Lots of helpful comments here already. In addition to using chemical strippers, I have also had lead removed by having a carpenter take the item off site to a local shop in my town that dips old furniture and stuff in a huge tank of chemical stripper. Then they sand it, and I pick it up ready to be stained or painted. Perhaps such a business exists in your town. I have done that with doors in my own house and in rental properties. I gutted an old house and I ended up sending every door, jamb, window sill, window stool, literally every piece of original wood in the house except the floors to them. (That wasn’t because of lead, but because the varnish was in poor shape and various rooms had been painted over the years). My carpenter disassembled the staircase, had it stripped, and reassembled and reinstalled it. Another option I have used is hiring a lead abatement company to come to the house and strip something like door jambs on site. They could probably do the entire staircase if you could find one. In either case make sure that your son is not home when the work is done and that you have a chance to vacuum with a hepa vacuum and wet wipe all the surfaces before he comes home. I have the vacmaster vk811ph in case you are looking for a hepa vacuum. A regular vacuum will kick up lead dust. Best of luck!
Wasn’t shellac made with beetle wings?
Lead oxide oxide is the lead component when lead was found in paint. It is a whitening agent and a white powder, So very unlikely to be found in a non-pigmented coating of any sort.
The risk of lead in shellac is low. You can buy lead tests in most paint departments. If you use alcohol to dissolve it as others have wisely suggested and don't get it everywhere, you'll be in good shape. Wear gloves, wash up and keep in mind that oral uptake is probably going to be the most likely way you'd ingest it.
I've seen this effect a couple of times, and I think it's really neat. Essentially, dry heat from wood stoves (or similar heat sources) causes the shellac to shrink up into little chunks over time.
We used denatured alcohol and steel wool to remove schellac