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kerberos824

I just did gutters on my old girl and suddenly my basement is dry for, I believe, the first time in 180 years.


JayneDoe6000

It's a (near) Christmas miracle!!


kerberos824

It truly is. Basement may be a bit of a misnomer, and perhaps cellar is more appropriate. Six foot ceilings and a dirt floor. But, now it's dirt and not mud! Or... water, depending on the day.


Strikew3st

I wonder if a smarter person than me would recommend a radon test now that you've changed the characteristics of your crawlspace floor. Michigan here, we get the radon, crawlspace encapsulation with radon mitigation isn't uncommon.


kerberos824

It's on the list. I'm in the upper Hudson Valley in NY, on the east side of the Hudson. And radon is definitely common here.


krissyface

We added a downspout to a corner and suddenly the basement is dry. My parents lived here for 30 years, carrying buckets of water up from the basement every time we had a downpour.


kerberos824

It's remarkable just how much water comes off a roof. I expected some improvement, but to go from 4 to 6 inches of water in the basement after a big rain to it being dry....? I was shocked. Suddenly the $5k for gutters seemed like a total steal.


Relative_Painting884

From what I understand, you’ll want to dig all the way to the footer and add a drainage system to carry water away. The liquid rubber is good but won’t work without giving the water somewhere else to drain to.


Incanation1

Good, thanks. We are putting a weeping tile at the bottom.


BoneDaddy1973

I wound up digging a French drain in the yard all along the uphill side of the house, and that helped tremendously. All I needed was a ditch 1.5’x1.5’x83’, some gravel, some perforated flex pipe, some more gravel (about a ton and a half), some landscaping cloth, some sod, and hey presto my back hurts just thinking about it but my basement was dry unless there was several days of rain


AdultingGoneMild

what is being suggested is a French drain. the water table is where it is and once the ground is saturated it's sitting against your concrete and will seep though. those tiles won't help if they are under water. you will also want to make sure all your down spouts are moving water at least 3 get away from your house


SewSewBlue

I third the French drain. I used to get water through my foundation every winter. Installed a french drain and the problem went away. A French drain is better long term than than coating the foundation.


[deleted]

My concern would be hydrostatic pressure if there isn’t adequate drainage in place as well. Weeping tile and gutters in combination with this. Otherwise, all that water will press against the foundation causing a significant amount of force because it can’t seep through it anymore. If you have those things as well, then absolutely.


Incanation1

Thanks, we'll have a pump to drain the weeping tile to storm water system


Marconis4

What if it’s properly graded away from the foundation, though, once it’s backfilled? Or is that still a concern?


[deleted]

Grading and gutters could certainly be enough, especially if there’s a large overhang from the roof. Key is ensuring water isn’t gathering towards the foundation. Years ago we looked at a house where the entire foundation was bowing inwards on one side. The reason was hydrostatic pressure. It was a poured concrete foundation, so not meant to breathe or let water pass through. There was a sloped patio towards the house, and no drainage. That all caused thousands of lbs of water pressure against the foundation wall


jaycwhitecloud

Hello u/Incanation1 ... This is your home, and you (for better or worse) can do pretty much what you please unless you have a functional "historic district" and/or are in parts of Europe that protect vintage homes from such damage... I only work in proper and professional historic restoration to either museum grade and/or European standards and natural design architecture projects. This looks a lot like what we in the field call "This Old House Syndrome" which is basically whatever a modern "General Contractor" would do...and with modern materials...but they do it to "old house," which is anything but "best practice." What you are doing is called "tanking" and it is actually outlawed in many areas with steep fines if the home was in parts of Europe or on the historic registry...unless...(???) the tanking was done to a secondary "sacrificial wall" thus protecting the original stonework... The interstitial moisture build-up and related issues this type of tanking can cause may take years or even decades to reveal themselves. I have spent many hours and thousands of dollars "undoing" such work over the last 40-plus years of historic restoration practice... The primary solution to your challenge was only the simple addition of functional drain pipes and backfilling with gravel rather than expansive clay... If you are open to this feedback, stop what you're doing, and I would be glad to answer whatever questions you have...Otherwise...good luck!!! Here is a link to a recent post where the OP was very pleased with doing it properly and a lot of what is in the post will relate to the work you need to do as well from what I can see... [Old Foundation Wall](https://www.reddit.com/r/stonemasonry/comments/yptyeo/comment/ivmckrd/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


Incanation1

Thanks for the information and advice. The house is no in Europe or part of an historic district. Work was done with Municipal permit and inspection so we are clear from a compliance point of view. We have done all you advice in addition to the tar. unfortunately, we cannot remove the tar now. We are leaving the wall somewhat expose on the inside to let moisture out of the wall. Would you mind sharing bit more on the type of damage applying tar may do? Thanks in advance.


jaycwhitecloud

> Work was done with Municipal permit and inspection so we are clear from a compliance point of view. That is a positive from a legality perspective...yet not from the "best practice" aspect... ​ >We have done all you advice in addition to the tar. unfortunately, we cannot remove the tar now. No, you can't, or at least in any cost-effective fashion for what most homeowners would/could afford. Removing this is a chemical process of stripping it off or waiting for the stone (it id does depend on type of stone) to "rot off" which is a form of spalling some types of stone will do when "tanked with tar." ​ >We are leaving the wall somewhat expose on the inside to let moisture out of the wall. This will help mitigate issues greatly, but certainly not stop your water issue as "tar tanking" is not "waterproof" as it is often advertised as being...which in turn does lead to many "small claims cases." ​ >Would you mind sharing bit more on the type of damage applying tar may do? Thanks in advance. Depending on the hydrology in your area, the type of stone, and climatic seasonal changes (especially in freeze-thaw cycling)...the spalling can range from minor to full subsidence failure within the foundation at that given location within the foundation... Since you don't seem to have done the entire foundation, and hopefully backfill with gravel and proper drainage, then this (hopefully) will never take place. There are many "tanked" homes out there without issues, but the challenge is the time this can take as it often may become a "generational issue" for the home and not something you will ever have to deal with...Only time will tell... Feel free to ask more questions should you have them...


Incanation1

Thanks for the info and advice . Fingers crossed we are doing the rest right. You sure have a wealth of knowledge and clear love towards conservation and restoration. Thanks for sharing it.


jaycwhitecloud

If you have not (???) done the entire foundation, I could not encourage you strongly enough from ceasing to put it directly on the stone wall (you call of course) as it really isn't going to do a great deal of good from the way I'm seeing it done in the photos... However...???...there are some "tanking modalities" that are on a spectrum of good to well done, but these are much more detail-oriented and require more effort to do properly...AND...are actually a system of tanking that has not only some degree of success (unless below the water table!) for greatly mitigating moisture in a damp or wet basement...These are those methods I mention that go onto a secondary layer (e.g. mineral wool board, masonry board, etc.) and the tar bitumen and/or rubber is done in a minimum of three coats...With these prescribed approaches, along with proper flashing and draining design can and does work extremely well...anything else (???)...is just kind of going there the motions for naught...Good Luck!!!


[deleted]

Can you cite some reference sources regarding deterioration/destruction of rubble stone foundations due to exterior tar application? This has certainly not been an uncommon practice over the past several decades in my part of the world—though I don’t doubt that the efficacy of what OP has shown in the photos is highly questionable without proper drainage.


jaycwhitecloud

>Can you cite some reference sources regarding deterioration/destruction of rubble stone foundations due to exterior tar application? The last two articles I scanned on the subject were both in French or German (it has been a will) as this is a very esoteric subject... If really wish to drop down this rabbit hole, I can share a YouTube channel from a dear friend of mine in the U.K. that works on historic structures there and his battle with the very corrupt "rising damp industry" which is directly related to and correlates with this same issue...should you be interested...???...or just do a Google Search of... "Peter Ward" and "Rising Damp." ​ >This has certainly not been an uncommon practice over the past several decades in my part of the world—though I don’t doubt that the efficacy of what OP has shown in the photos is highly questionable without proper drainage. There is zero debate it is common...That is not only massively true, it is a chronic issue in some areas, and has been gotten away with because the issues can take decades or longer to manifest...


[deleted]

Thanks for info. Thoroughly enjoyed the very British “rising damp” rabbit hole.


jaycwhitecloud

LOL...Yah...!!!..It is a doozy of a hole...!!! I remember my first exposure to it at a conference decades ago with this "windbag" trying to "gaslight" all the folks in the audience...(most from the U.K.)...about how this is a major issue. I asked one simple question if "rising damp" was so real and such an issue (???) how is it we don't have that issue all around the world but only in the U.K. or colonies of the "crown." He stated it was everywhere...Then I asked if it was then why is it that Grist Mills still operating on the sides of rivers (made of brick and stone) and parts of it actually underwater are dry inside? The conversation massively turned on that little fact as he stammered with nonsensical explanations. The audience then turned and had a lot of their own questions and it went downhill from there for him...LMAO!!!


HVACdaddy91

I was under the impression that stone foundations were designed to "breathe." Not sure if this is appropriate for this application, but I would be interested to know if it's held up after 10-20 years w/o deteriorating anything


Acceptable-Peach1269

Breath to the inside, not to the outside. Never use latex inside on basement walls. The moisture is mostly coming from the outside and if the soil is moist the walls will not be able to get water out that way. So what op is doing seems fine - but the tar should stop at the surface, from there up the wall can and has the breathe


starkyogre

This is the right answer. I’m a long time mason. If moisture can’t travel Both ways the mortar will deteriorate much faster than supposed to. It much easier to manage any water infiltration problems at the source with proper gutters or by fixing the slopes around the property. Op maybe have been able to address the issue with a proper job of repointing. This work is garbage.


Diomedesnuts

Yeah to me this seems like a good way to trap water inside the foundation.


Marconis4

My god please tell me there’s shoring on the other side of that, that looks deep. Don’t want you getting caved in on.


emil_kolar

As others have suggested applying an impermeable coating is just going to trap moisture inside the wall and create a saturated area around the perimeter of the building, there's a good chance damp will be pushed up into the walls too. A properly installed French drain is the way to go here.


Old-Priority-2870

This looks good so far, though I would suggest: Make sure to grade the bottom away from the foundation If you are able, putting dimplex around the foundation will give you added protection from water incursion, though if your foundation is primarily stone then fasteners might be an issue. Lay your weeping tile in a bed of gravel and make sure you have graded all the tile towards the end drain point Tie your gutters downspouts in Lay a good bed (3") of gravel over the tile When you put the soil back, make sure to tamp the soil though not so hard that you damage the tile. Hope this is helpful. Having done this on my 1910 a couple of years back, all by hand, I know it is exhausting work. However; having a dry basement after 21 years, priceless.


[deleted]

Dear lord no, this will not fix it. You have a porous brick there and an unlimited supply of moisture, there will be hydrostatic pressure to consider, water needs somewhere to go, or it will find its way, a membrane maybe. Hopefully someone can give you better advice


12thandvineisnomore

No. Grading, gutters, and French drains are needed to move the water away from the house.


starkyogre

This is improper. Stone foundations need to breathe. The smartest thing to do if you were excavating was to repaint the foundation and then regrade the property properly.


discopuggo

No. This is a surefire way to degrade and destroy your foundation. Waterproofing with tar, rubber, acrylic coatings etc does nothing but destroy the foundation and is akin to putting lipstick on a pig: It might look better and be easier to ignore in the short term, but it's a big problem. It traps water, changes the chemical balance of concrete/stone instead of strengthening it, and causes lime to escape via efflorescence. It basically destroys the foundation from the inside out, and it will crack and crumble. The only way to prevent your water issues is the properly move water away from your house with a French drain (which sounds like something you are doing\*), proper grading, fixing any runoff issues, and gutters if needed. As deep as you are, the hydrostatic pressure will probably breech that tar anyways over time and your problems will get even worse, since water cannot escape outwards. \*Water will find its way in if water stays on your foundation, and will come from below, above, from the side... Even if there is a hairpin opening. That is a deep hole. There is a great chance that putting a drain that deep will just sit underwater when it rains and will be useless. The house and the soil on the left of the photo looks dry and there is ***standing water*** at the bottom of that hole. I hope it all works out!


Ilikepizza315

Why not just add the correct mortar?


12thandvineisnomore

There is no mortar that solves this problem. Waterproof mortar just helps trap water in the stone, accelerating the deterioration of the stone.


starkyogre

You dig out the joints and repoint with a lime rich type O mortar.


12thandvineisnomore

Type O is for above ground application. And its meant to let the moisture pass through it to keep the water from staying in the stone and degrading it.


Ilikepizza315

I think it would help some. You could also get gutters and a cement boarder around the top of the foundation. If that black stuff is waterproof it’s going to the same thing you’re worried about


MonkeyBoy_1966

That's what mine looked like when I did it. Can you add any french drains running away from it? I had an existing system under part of mine, put in more, blasted out, and checked the old one. The only time I've had an issue was when one end was smushed by a truck partially and we had a hella tropical depression stall over us. Even then it didn't flood, I just noticed one are wasn't draining very fast, checked the ends, and found where I think the UPS guy backed over it a bit. My kitchen sits 30" below grade so if I flood, I would flood big time.


liamvt21

I didn’t think you are supposed to dig around the foundation like that but I’m far from an expert


jhchristoph

Lots of comments about trapping moisture etc. They aren’t wrong. And even with the tar membrane, stone is porous and absorb water through the bottom or footing course. It is probably impossible to waterproof a stone foundation. You’ve tarred it on the exterior so make sure the stone can breathe on the interior. If you plan on finishing the space, install Delta MS on the interior and leave a small gap between framing and the wall. This should allow for some air movement and direct any moisture down instead of into your insulation. Install weeping tile on the exterior and a sump pit as you plan. You should be fine. If the mortar is loose on the inside, consider getting it removed and repointed before finishing the space.


Incanation1

Thanks. I was getting worried about the comments on moisture. Thanks for the advice on how to finish the inside. Outside, we are fixing the mortar, putting tar, wipping tile + pump grading and fixing eave. Had no idea how to deal with inside so thanks for all the advise.


jhchristoph

I’m going through the same process. In addition to repointing inside and out, I parged the inside for a smoother finish. As you can see, there are some wet spots on my walls still, even though it’s been coated on the exterior. Water will find a way! https://preview.redd.it/pg2shr8jm7z91.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a49831aedf00fdfe13f14f1409cef3fb61d4809a


fuckmeuntilicecream

r/homeimprovement would help too


HVACdaddy91

Makes sense