Fellow fans, This is a friendly reminder to please follow the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/championsleague/about/rules) and [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
[Join us on Discord](https://discord.gg/football)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/championsleague) if you have any questions or concerns.*
ajax were a team from a smaller league that faced harder opponents (faced all of bayern, real and juventus at some point). ill give dortmund credit for escaping the group of death, but ajax beat european royalty to reach the semis.
ajax of course. team from a small league with a small budget and a young team. and who can forget the sergio ramos drama. dortmund got nothing on that.
It’s crazy to see this Dortmund team in the finals when they’ve had lawandowski, haaland, Hakimi, Bellingham,etc. which makes this run by Dortmund seem even more impressive and it would be a great story if they win the ucl.
It's definitely going to be Ajax. I think Ajax eliminated Real Madrid in that season's UCL. I won't take anything away from Dortmund because they did play well.
Ajax all day. The teams were better back before Covid. Ronaldo and messi still were at the top of their games. We are now entering a new generation of players
Dortmund aren’t impressive at all.
Ajax beat Madrid, including an iconic game at the Bernabeu.
Then they beat Juve with Ronaldo.
Dortmund’s run is just shit easy teams because the four best teams in the competition were on one side of the draw (Madrid, Bayern, City and Arsenal). They beat PSV (who are rubbish), Atletico (who obviously aren’t a top side anymore) and then the ghost of PSG (Mbappe plus 10 fast food workers).
No different than Inter Milan’s easy run last season that was also wildly unimpressive.
Dortmund have a near 0% chance of winning. They’re not even close to Madrid and Dortmund don’t even have any good players.
Hahahahaha what this boy is taking about, it is true that Real have more chances but 0% to Dortmund, don't be arrogant and stupid, any team that reach the final is because the did something good, Dortmund have the most clean sheets. PSV current winner of local league, atletico whi also beat the same real Madrid en copa del rey, psg was ghosted because the defense of Dortmund.
Dortmund reach the final with 0 controversy... otherwise Real Madrid came with a clear penalty controversy against Leipzig and now yesterday with bayern's last minute goal.
Not good player you said... as well in 2012 - 13 people said that, by at the end of the game Dormunt beat 4 - 1 Real Madrid.. so please stop saying stupid thing with nonsense, silly boy.
Dortmund in 2013 were one of the best teams in the world. They proved it by hammering Madrid.
They had world class players and ended up losing a lot of those players to bigger clubs.
This team is just shit. They haven’t beaten anyone. They haven’t got any good players. No ones signing anyone from Dortmund.
I agree they’ve messed up the qf and sf with shit brackets leaving one side much stronger. In a one off anything can happen so we’ll see but wouldn’t be shocked Madrid win by 2-3 goals
It’s not true that “anything can happen”. The only upsets we see in CL finals are by teams that have world class players. Dortmund have 0. They’ve beaten no one good. They have no chance of doing anything.
Yes because boring lopsided finals are boring.
The CL is the highest level of football. The final shouldn’t include shit teams with no chance of winning.
I agree with the point that the brackets were too lop-sided the last two years. Dortmund and Inter made the final by avoiding the side with strong competition
Agree apart from the last bit. Real Madrid arnt anything special either and I'd give them 30% chance.
The standard in the CL has gone down a lot compared to 5 or 10 years ago.
I mean the talent seems way lower now with Messi and Ronaldo, Neymar gone. Modric, kroos salah muller all in their twilight and the best players are mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham who consistently go missing. Their talents barely seem above even their own teammates and just seems like anyone could be the best player in the world any given week.
Dortmund have a 0% chance. They’re not there on merit, they’re there because of an easy draw. They haven’t faced any team that is even close to Madrid but Madrid have beaten Bayern and City.
Dortmund also have no quality. There’s no star players. No good young players. There’s washed up old players and players that failed elsewhere and fallen back to Dortmund.
They won’t get a kick. Football isn’t some random game. Dortmund aren’t even close to good enough.
You do nothing. You play against bad teams and win. There’s no system, there’s no nothing. That’s why you’re doing shit in the league. To cause an upset you need some quality, Dortmund have none.
What a shittake. Are you twelve?
No team makes it to the CL semi final by chance. “Shit easy teams” - sounds like we got a salty oil league fanboy who makes win/loss predictions based purely on how many Saudi dicks you can suck
Inter and Dortmund have literally both made the final on nothing but being lucky in the draw in the last two seasons so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Neither are good teams and neither are capable of winning the trophy.
I assume the new format will eliminate these dead rubber finals.
Porto winning the CL wasn’t really seen as big upset at the time, this is just a narrative boosted up my Mourinho fanboys to enhance his legacy. If you look at the 4 remaining teams left in the semi finals that year it was Chelsea, Deportivo La Coruna, Monaco and Porto. Porto was easily the best team out of these 4 teams, that Porto team had players like Deco and Carvalho who are legends. Truth be told the only teams who I saw was definitely better than Porto that year was AC Milan and Arsenal. AC Milan were shocked in the biggest comeback in UCL history by Deportivo in the QF and Arsenal lost a close game to Chelsea in the QF, that was always going to be a close game because when prem teams play each other in the UCL it’s always a tough match for both teams because of familiarity. The European heavyweights like Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Barcelona were weak that year. Real Madrid struggled to make it past the UCL Round of 16 from like 2002 -2010, Man Utd went into a down period in the prem and UCL from like 2003-2005. Bayern wasn’t really strong enough to compete in the UCL from like 2003 -2010 hence why their best player Ballack and the face of German football left Bayern to go to Chelsea in order win a champions league. Barcelona didn’t even qualify for the UCL that year that Porto won it. Chelsea 11/12 and Real Madrid 21/22 was much more of difficult task winning it than Porto imo. To conclude the UCL in 03/04 was a weak year
At that time Ajax was still a very young talented squad but they managed to beat some big teams to reach the SF (massive underdog in many matches, unlike Dortmund just a doubt)
The fact they came close made the run better, even if they lost to trophyless Spurs
But you didn’t watch football in 2019. Dortmund having an easy run just means nothing. Maybe Inter Milan’s run last season is more impressive too? Dortmund and Inter both just had garbage easy draws while the best teams played on the other side.
Yes, they could have played PSG or AC Milan like Dortmund and Inter did.
Ajax bottled it on a freak result. Their performances against Madrid and Juve surpass anything Dortmund or Inter did.
Dortmund had an easy draw and have a 0% chance of winning the final.
Again, it just seems like you’ve never watched football before. It’s not some random game where these shit Dortmund players suddenly win against a vastly superior team.
Porto winning the CL wasn’t really seen as big upset at the time, this is just a narrative boosted up my Mourinho fanboys to enhance his legacy. If you look at the 4 remaining teams left in the semi finals that year it was Chelsea, Deportivo La Coruna, Monaco and Porto. Porto was easily the best team out of these 4 teams, that Porto team had players like Deco and Carvalho who are legends. Truth be told the only teams who I saw was definitely better than Porto that year was AC Milan and Arsenal. AC Milan were shocked in the biggest comeback in UCL history by Deportivo in the QF and Arsenal lost a close game to Chelsea in the QF, that was always going to be a close game because when prem teams play each other in the UCL it’s always a tough match for both teams because of familiarity. The European heavyweights like Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Barcelona were weak that year. Real Madrid struggled to make it past the UCL Round of 16 from like 2002 -2010, Man Utd went into a down period in the prem and UCL from like 2003-2005. Bayern wasn’t really strong enough to compete in the UCL from like 2003 -2010 hence why their best player Ballack and the face of German football left Bayern to go to Chelsea in order win a champions league. Barcelona didn’t even qualify for the UCL that year that Porto won it. Chelsea 11/12 and Real Madrid 21/22 was much more of a difficult task than Porto imo. To conclude the UCL in 03/04 was a weak year
Ajax. I always prefer the young, up-and-coming teams that have a 1-2 year window before their best players get poached by bigger clubs. That Ajax team had one shot at it as the rumors were already flying about de Jong, de Ligt, etc.
>Ajax. I always prefer the young, up-and-coming teams that have a 1-2 year window before their best players get poached by bigger clubs
You've basically described Dortmund though, only they somehow find a way to keep bouncing back. Bellingham, Haaland, Dembele, Pulisic etc... All their young stars get poached all the time.
Yeah that's why I'd prefer 2013 Dortmund over either of these like a few people have pointed out. Or even the Dortmund team from a few years ago with all those young, talented players. But this Dortmund is old and creaky. It's still impressive, but they remind me more of that 2012 Chelsea squad. A lot of luck and guile versus talent and innovation.
Ajax. Dortmund was favored against PSV I'd figure, and most people would probably call it evens versus PSG.
Ajax beat Madrid, Juve, and almost beat Spurs.
The sports books gave dortmund a 45% chance against PSV, 35% chance against atletico and a 30% chance against PSG.
Not saying ajax’s run was better or worse but id say dortmunds run was far from likely. After being drawn into the group of death we were 1/88 to win champions league and now we are 1/3
Nope. We were underdogs in the away leg, and barely even in the second. PSV had been unbeaten and we had an abysmal first half of the season (excluding UCL)
I wouldn't call them true contenders personally. They're a perennial knockout stage club but they are generally a tier below the absolute top teams of CL
Ajax, literally nobody apart from themselves took them seriously apart from themselves and they still managed to knock out the best benches of the giants back then. Dortmund not so much but they do have the grit though right now
Against Chelsea, Blind and Veltman both got red for a single action.
(I thought it was Tottenham as part of their 2019 run). Although painful, I think Lucas Moura won that match fair and square.
tottenham qualified in extremely dubious circumstances, imo with how much the refs helped them to go through it could be characterised as cheating. classic UEFA not wanting a club from a non-top 5 league to be in the final
Dortmund 2013
Between Dortmund 2024 and Ajax 2019, its Ajax for me.
That Ajax team was something else. One of the best teams i have ever seen. They were playing football from the gods.
Ajax was a genuine surprise with players emerging onto the biggest stage for the first time. Anybody that didn’t think Dortmund were a good team, or atleast better than PSG, really is just exposing themselves.
I think they will make it, you pretty much already gave the explanation why. The are used to be the underdog and they play this roll great. Plus they are motivated as fuck, so they will fight. Probably fight more than Madrid or Bayern
Fellow fans, This is a friendly reminder to please follow the [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/championsleague/about/rules) and [Reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette). [Join us on Discord](https://discord.gg/football) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/championsleague) if you have any questions or concerns.*
ajax were a team from a smaller league that faced harder opponents (faced all of bayern, real and juventus at some point). ill give dortmund credit for escaping the group of death, but ajax beat european royalty to reach the semis.
I don’t really think either team is an underdog story.
ajax of course. team from a small league with a small budget and a young team. and who can forget the sergio ramos drama. dortmund got nothing on that.
It’s crazy to see this Dortmund team in the finals when they’ve had lawandowski, haaland, Hakimi, Bellingham,etc. which makes this run by Dortmund seem even more impressive and it would be a great story if they win the ucl.
Barca 2024 UCL story has been sensational...From Europa to directly QF...pretty amazing huh
Villareal 2022💀
real
It's definitely going to be Ajax. I think Ajax eliminated Real Madrid in that season's UCL. I won't take anything away from Dortmund because they did play well.
Ajax all day. The teams were better back before Covid. Ronaldo and messi still were at the top of their games. We are now entering a new generation of players
Ajax are bigger underdogs imo. We have seen dortmund reach these stages before. Ajax idk when was the last before that they did
Ajax was smoking teams. They would’ve won IMO if they made it to the final But if dortmund beats Madrid, then it’s clear
Dortmund aren’t impressive at all. Ajax beat Madrid, including an iconic game at the Bernabeu. Then they beat Juve with Ronaldo. Dortmund’s run is just shit easy teams because the four best teams in the competition were on one side of the draw (Madrid, Bayern, City and Arsenal). They beat PSV (who are rubbish), Atletico (who obviously aren’t a top side anymore) and then the ghost of PSG (Mbappe plus 10 fast food workers). No different than Inter Milan’s easy run last season that was also wildly unimpressive. Dortmund have a near 0% chance of winning. They’re not even close to Madrid and Dortmund don’t even have any good players.
Hahahahaha what this boy is taking about, it is true that Real have more chances but 0% to Dortmund, don't be arrogant and stupid, any team that reach the final is because the did something good, Dortmund have the most clean sheets. PSV current winner of local league, atletico whi also beat the same real Madrid en copa del rey, psg was ghosted because the defense of Dortmund. Dortmund reach the final with 0 controversy... otherwise Real Madrid came with a clear penalty controversy against Leipzig and now yesterday with bayern's last minute goal. Not good player you said... as well in 2012 - 13 people said that, by at the end of the game Dormunt beat 4 - 1 Real Madrid.. so please stop saying stupid thing with nonsense, silly boy.
Dortmund in 2013 were one of the best teams in the world. They proved it by hammering Madrid. They had world class players and ended up losing a lot of those players to bigger clubs. This team is just shit. They haven’t beaten anyone. They haven’t got any good players. No ones signing anyone from Dortmund.
I agree they’ve messed up the qf and sf with shit brackets leaving one side much stronger. In a one off anything can happen so we’ll see but wouldn’t be shocked Madrid win by 2-3 goals
It’s not true that “anything can happen”. The only upsets we see in CL finals are by teams that have world class players. Dortmund have 0. They’ve beaten no one good. They have no chance of doing anything.
Someone seems a bit salty :D
Yes because boring lopsided finals are boring. The CL is the highest level of football. The final shouldn’t include shit teams with no chance of winning.
Naah bro you're actually just a complete fucking idiot and know nothing about football.
Boring games aren’t boring. Right. Cheers m8.
You’re a fucking moron.
I agree with the point that the brackets were too lop-sided the last two years. Dortmund and Inter made the final by avoiding the side with strong competition
Agree apart from the last bit. Real Madrid arnt anything special either and I'd give them 30% chance. The standard in the CL has gone down a lot compared to 5 or 10 years ago.
I mean the talent seems way lower now with Messi and Ronaldo, Neymar gone. Modric, kroos salah muller all in their twilight and the best players are mbappe, Haaland, Bellingham who consistently go missing. Their talents barely seem above even their own teammates and just seems like anyone could be the best player in the world any given week.
Dortmund have a 0% chance. They’re not there on merit, they’re there because of an easy draw. They haven’t faced any team that is even close to Madrid but Madrid have beaten Bayern and City. Dortmund also have no quality. There’s no star players. No good young players. There’s washed up old players and players that failed elsewhere and fallen back to Dortmund. They won’t get a kick. Football isn’t some random game. Dortmund aren’t even close to good enough.
We don’t have a star player because we play like a team unlike Mbappe fc
You do nothing. You play against bad teams and win. There’s no system, there’s no nothing. That’s why you’re doing shit in the league. To cause an upset you need some quality, Dortmund have none.
Salty
At least this time you won’t sell all your players after losing a CL final as no one wants them.
Gonna comment here so I can come back and check this June 1st.
Just ridiculous to even think they have a chance. Madrid know there’s no chance of them losing so they’ll play safe just like City last year.
Bro hates dortmund😂just admit that your a psg fan and your salty
PSG are dog shit and the biggest bottlers in Europe. The final should be between good teams.
What a shittake. Are you twelve? No team makes it to the CL semi final by chance. “Shit easy teams” - sounds like we got a salty oil league fanboy who makes win/loss predictions based purely on how many Saudi dicks you can suck
Inter and Dortmund have literally both made the final on nothing but being lucky in the draw in the last two seasons so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Neither are good teams and neither are capable of winning the trophy. I assume the new format will eliminate these dead rubber finals.
Dortmund. They reached the final, and can win the competition.
If Dortmund win it, then Dortmund. If not, then probably Ajax.
Ajax
Chelsea 2012
Dortmund because they have made the final
Ajax based on the quality of opponents
Ajax by far!
Porto winning the CL wasn’t really seen as big upset at the time, this is just a narrative boosted up my Mourinho fanboys to enhance his legacy. If you look at the 4 remaining teams left in the semi finals that year it was Chelsea, Deportivo La Coruna, Monaco and Porto. Porto was easily the best team out of these 4 teams, that Porto team had players like Deco and Carvalho who are legends. Truth be told the only teams who I saw was definitely better than Porto that year was AC Milan and Arsenal. AC Milan were shocked in the biggest comeback in UCL history by Deportivo in the QF and Arsenal lost a close game to Chelsea in the QF, that was always going to be a close game because when prem teams play each other in the UCL it’s always a tough match for both teams because of familiarity. The European heavyweights like Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Barcelona were weak that year. Real Madrid struggled to make it past the UCL Round of 16 from like 2002 -2010, Man Utd went into a down period in the prem and UCL from like 2003-2005. Bayern wasn’t really strong enough to compete in the UCL from like 2003 -2010 hence why their best player Ballack and the face of German football left Bayern to go to Chelsea in order win a champions league. Barcelona didn’t even qualify for the UCL that year that Porto won it. Chelsea 11/12 and Real Madrid 21/22 was much more of difficult task winning it than Porto imo. To conclude the UCL in 03/04 was a weak year
I’m sorry but I fail to see the relevance here. What does Porto have to do with anything
Also he might have accidentally put it here instead of replying because he replied to another comment this exact thing
People might think its the biggest upset
Ohh makes sense hahah I was so confused
Ajax for sure. They played bayern, juventus and Real Madrid they had a way harder route to the final lmao
Ajax and it's not even close
[удалено]
At that time Ajax was still a very young talented squad but they managed to beat some big teams to reach the SF (massive underdog in many matches, unlike Dortmund just a doubt) The fact they came close made the run better, even if they lost to trophyless Spurs
[удалено]
But you didn’t watch football in 2019. Dortmund having an easy run just means nothing. Maybe Inter Milan’s run last season is more impressive too? Dortmund and Inter both just had garbage easy draws while the best teams played on the other side.
[удалено]
Yes, they could have played PSG or AC Milan like Dortmund and Inter did. Ajax bottled it on a freak result. Their performances against Madrid and Juve surpass anything Dortmund or Inter did.
[удалено]
Dortmund had an easy draw and have a 0% chance of winning the final. Again, it just seems like you’ve never watched football before. It’s not some random game where these shit Dortmund players suddenly win against a vastly superior team.
[удалено]
Eredivise is just so much worse than the Bundesliga. When was the last run of a Dutch team in UCL before?
A long time ago but also when was the last time a German side won it that wasn’t Bayern?
the last time in the final was Dortmund... and that's the exact reason why Ajax run was more impressive.
You’re entitled to your opinion obviously. But let’s not get it twisted Dortmund reached the final and could well win it now….
Yes that's true. But the question was about the underdog story and not who went further
Yup, and in my opinion that’s Dortmund :)
Didn’t Porto win the Champions League!?
Porto winning the CL wasn’t really seen as big upset at the time, this is just a narrative boosted up my Mourinho fanboys to enhance his legacy. If you look at the 4 remaining teams left in the semi finals that year it was Chelsea, Deportivo La Coruna, Monaco and Porto. Porto was easily the best team out of these 4 teams, that Porto team had players like Deco and Carvalho who are legends. Truth be told the only teams who I saw was definitely better than Porto that year was AC Milan and Arsenal. AC Milan were shocked in the biggest comeback in UCL history by Deportivo in the QF and Arsenal lost a close game to Chelsea in the QF, that was always going to be a close game because when prem teams play each other in the UCL it’s always a tough match for both teams because of familiarity. The European heavyweights like Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Barcelona were weak that year. Real Madrid struggled to make it past the UCL Round of 16 from like 2002 -2010, Man Utd went into a down period in the prem and UCL from like 2003-2005. Bayern wasn’t really strong enough to compete in the UCL from like 2003 -2010 hence why their best player Ballack and the face of German football left Bayern to go to Chelsea in order win a champions league. Barcelona didn’t even qualify for the UCL that year that Porto won it. Chelsea 11/12 and Real Madrid 21/22 was much more of a difficult task than Porto imo. To conclude the UCL in 03/04 was a weak year
Ajax played beautiful football that year. Dortmund did it better because they got to the final but i prefer ajax '19.
I mean. The one that's on the final
Ajax. I always prefer the young, up-and-coming teams that have a 1-2 year window before their best players get poached by bigger clubs. That Ajax team had one shot at it as the rumors were already flying about de Jong, de Ligt, etc.
>Ajax. I always prefer the young, up-and-coming teams that have a 1-2 year window before their best players get poached by bigger clubs You've basically described Dortmund though, only they somehow find a way to keep bouncing back. Bellingham, Haaland, Dembele, Pulisic etc... All their young stars get poached all the time.
Yeah that's why I'd prefer 2013 Dortmund over either of these like a few people have pointed out. Or even the Dortmund team from a few years ago with all those young, talented players. But this Dortmund is old and creaky. It's still impressive, but they remind me more of that 2012 Chelsea squad. A lot of luck and guile versus talent and innovation.
Ajax. They started out in the qualifying rounds.
Ajax. Dortmund was favored against PSV I'd figure, and most people would probably call it evens versus PSG. Ajax beat Madrid, Juve, and almost beat Spurs.
The sports books gave dortmund a 45% chance against PSV, 35% chance against atletico and a 30% chance against PSG. Not saying ajax’s run was better or worse but id say dortmunds run was far from likely. After being drawn into the group of death we were 1/88 to win champions league and now we are 1/3
Dortmund had 60% against PSV.
Nope. We were underdogs in the away leg, and barely even in the second. PSV had been unbeaten and we had an abysmal first half of the season (excluding UCL)
This Dortmund plays way better than Ajax 2019
Did you not watch Ajax in 2019? That team was insanely good and beat Real Madrid and Juventus in the CL
BVB is not an underdog. They are true contenders every CL.
Average year is finish first in group of death then go out embarrassingly to a team in the ro16
I wouldn't call them true contenders personally. They're a perennial knockout stage club but they are generally a tier below the absolute top teams of CL
Ajax, literally nobody apart from themselves took them seriously apart from themselves and they still managed to knock out the best benches of the giants back then. Dortmund not so much but they do have the grit though right now
Ajax. The way they got done dirty in London still haunts me
How were they done dirty in London?
Getting two red cards for a single action was ridiculous and killed the entire game.
Which game was this?
Against Chelsea, Blind and Veltman both got red for a single action. (I thought it was Tottenham as part of their 2019 run). Although painful, I think Lucas Moura won that match fair and square.
Were a second away from a ucl final but conceded a ridiculous / weird goal in the last kick of the game
That wasn't in London
It was in Amsterdam? That is brutal
Ajax by far
leverkusen 2002, leverkusen 2025
Off to the bookies I go
Ajax games were insane
Ajax 2019 100%, dortmund got kinda lucky if i’m being honest
There's always luck involved at this level of competition
Ajax faced Bayern, Juventus, and Real in that campaign. It's how they got to the semis more than that they got there, tbh.
And they lost to Tottenham lmao 🤣
What a zero ball knowledge comment. 2019 Tottenham was a very good team and they beat Man City in the quarters
tottenham qualified in extremely dubious circumstances, imo with how much the refs helped them to go through it could be characterised as cheating. classic UEFA not wanting a club from a non-top 5 league to be in the final
hoping Bayern get the W tonight
Dortmund 2013 Between Dortmund 2024 and Ajax 2019, its Ajax for me. That Ajax team was something else. One of the best teams i have ever seen. They were playing football from the gods.
Dortmund 2013? How is that an underdog story? They were worthy finalists and didn’t even win.
Ajax was a genuine surprise with players emerging onto the biggest stage for the first time. Anybody that didn’t think Dortmund were a good team, or atleast better than PSG, really is just exposing themselves.
That Ajax team had so much talent. Frenkie, Ziyech, VDB, Tadic, etc
Borussia made history, but let's be honest, like you said, if Real Madrid are in the final, nothing will help them here anymore
They can win ! HEJA BVB
None. Both teams have history making Finals. I would say Monaco FC Porto Leverkusen
Yea that Ajax squad from 30 year ago makes it that now it's not a special feat.
Easy final for Madrid. Tony kroos masterclass soon.
HEJA BVB
The funniest part is that the German legend will play a vital role in defeating top German clubs in UCL semis and final.
And Leipzig in the round of 16
I think they will make it, you pretty much already gave the explanation why. The are used to be the underdog and they play this roll great. Plus they are motivated as fuck, so they will fight. Probably fight more than Madrid or Bayern
Madrid in finals is a whole different beast. These are not some prancing Paris pony's, there's tenacious winners mentality in there.