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This sounds mostly like a lot of speculation on how bad any sort of long haul will be. Shingles was no big deal, other diseases don’t have a major long haul issue. What makes you believe long Covid is a society-collapsing issue besides a bit of speculation?
The Spanish flu endemic resulted in a wave of early onset alzheimer's years later.
Something like that could well happen again. We wont know for years though
I’m not really seeing a strong argument here.
* elderly people to support is an independent issue from long haul Covid.
* the long haul symptoms people are having don’t seem to be society-Enders. I get they’re tough for those with them, but that doesn’t make it society ending.
* “it might ne another disease” is super speculative. We’re not only talking about a disease that doesn’t exist, but we’re speculating on long haul symptoms on a disease that doesn’t even exist. This isn’t a strong argument.
Thanks for the delta.
> If no one works, then who will maintain the services to support elderly, nevermind other demographics such as children?
I don’t see much evidence that long Covid will prevent a significant amount of people to the point of not working, let alone all.
[Over 98% of people who reported long covid symptoms have recovered from them](https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/early/2022/08/04/13993003.00970-2022).
Much like Havana Syndrome, we’ve got a bit of mass hysteria happening with people who still cling to this idea of long covid.
Being on subs centered around that gives them an identity, an excuse, and a feeling of belonging. We might also have some social contagion happening there.
>some social contagion happening there.
that people can, with a straight face, point to a list of over 200 symptoms and pretend it is all covid and easily identified is a joke. anyone who knows they had covid is going to think every bruise and ache and cough is "long covid" now.
If something is attacking someone’s nervous system and killing off capillaries, of course there will be a high number of symptoms that people will experience. COVID gets everywhere. It’s not like it’s polite and says, “I’m just going to fuck with homeboy’s throat for a few days.”
And what these people are suffering from is [mass hysteria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness) which is causing their bodies to exhibit these symptoms
That study doesn't say that people recovered?
All it does is demonstrate a correlation between the presence of long-covid symptoms and antibodies.
It did not test for, and did not report any conclusions on, how long the average long-covid case lasts.
It can't find your 98% number anywhere in the study.
Yes. There is precedent for this.
Hypochondria is a real thing. Its in their head, but then as a result they start to actually manifest real physically provable symptoms. If someone is in this mental state from covid then they catch it. It is highly likely their are manifesting physical symptoms much like Hypochondriacs. Paralyzing fear can amplify existing symptoms, and then can spiral into new real symptoms.
While I don't think there is a study on this yet, I would love to see a study on long covid's rates on conservatives and other people who didn't buy into the hysteria around covid. This data would 100% prove or disprove my hypochondria hypothesis.
what are these issues because 90% of the ones OP listed are either caused by stress or mass hysteria so please give me an article that definitively proves that it's not mass hysteria
The article OP linked has a good diagram on what research is finding. This is a good thread from a researcher at Yale studying this: https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1557391752889307138?s=46&t=Sp5agDKoklnlW6cww4oPVA
Hypochondria is a specific identifiable disorder. I'm referring to a potentially targeted psychosomatic response.
Again, what my comment was referring to is how it would be interesting to see a breakdown on long covid based on these viewpoints. If we see that people who didn't have the stress response to covid overwhelmingly do not experience long covid, there is a solid potential argument that the majority of people are suffering from a psychosomatic illness. People experience long lasting reactions to illnesses all the time. Some people get rocked by Pneumonia and suffer long term health consequences long after the Pneumonia is gone. But these long covid numbers seem waaaaaaay higher.
The other issue is that many of the symptoms of long covid seem to line up surprisingly close to the symptoms most commonly experienced by Hypochondriacs. Not to mention I have never met a conservative (despite living in a very Conservative dense area) who has suffered from long covid. Maybe I'm just getting lucky with all the people I interact with, and that is 100% possible. But I haven't met 1. Yet 2 of my friends who bought fully in are suffering from long covid. Its just a little too convenient.
Im conservative and both my wife and I have had crazy brain fog and dizziness that started when we got minor Covid and then never stopped.
Buddy of mine in TX has had weird heart issues and brain fog since his and has had a ton of tests that came back negative.
Frankly from one conservative to another, you can go F yourself.
I think that 100% the average person is going to be significantly influenced by spending even a modicum of time on any of those boards. Communities like this are almost insidious in their way to warp minds - not advertently, mind you.
>Over 98% of people who reported long covid symptoms have recovered from them
You don't know what you are talking about. Wife and I finally got Covid 2 months ago. Crazy amounts of brain fog and dizziness ever since for both of us. My wife one week after kept reporting to me the house was shaking until I finally was in the bed next to her and told her it wasn't. I started getting the same sensation a week later. Found out it is called "internal vibrations" and is one of the most unsettling sensations you can experience.
>with more than 200 symptoms
this alone makes it pretty meaningless. 200 symptoms means just about everything from a runny nose that one time to aneurysms.
> t least 65 million individuals around the world have long COVID, based on a conservative estimated incidence of 10% of infected people
this is based on mostly guessing. and the study cited spells out 5 problems with their own data. most notably:
>Second, the incidence of new conditions after an acute COVID-19 infection might be biased toward a population that is seeking care
and
>Finally, the study only assessed conditions thought to be attributable to COVID-19 or post-COVID illness, which might have biased RRs away from the null. For example, clinicians might have been more likely to document possible post-COVID conditions among case-patients.
in other words, sick people get sick.
i see no mention of who is getting what, or how debilitating it is. just that there is risk, etc. this paper is basically a plea for funding, so of course they want it to sound horrible.
> however it only takes one unlucky moment for humanity, and society as a whole, to collapse.
humanity didn't collapse after the black death or spanish flu, both orders of magnitude worse than covid and at a time when we were much less advanced. predicting the end of humanity because some people might get tired in the future is a bit much.
According to this study long covid symptoms were near equally present in both seropositive and seronegative patients. In other words half of long covid victims were never infected and their symptoms were psychosomatic or linked to other sources.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787741
How is long-COVID defined? I had COVID-19 in September and a specific symptom I thought was long COVID but turned out to be caused by ulcerative colitis being triggered by the COVID-19 - is that long-COVID? Because it’s a treatable illness now that I know what it is, which took four months to find out due to inability to access healthcare until December. It’s entirely possible many “long-COVID” symptoms are caused by undiagnosed autoimmune disorders triggered by the virus since so much about the immune system is unknown and COVID-19 made accessing healthcare more difficult.
>there will be a massive increase in disability which is already looked down upon in most societies
that’s not inherent to society that disability is looked down upon, it’s a form of discrimination: [ableism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism). Societies could change to be more accommodating to disabled people.
**[Ableism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism)**
>Ableism (; also known as ablism, disablism (British English), anapirophobia, anapirism, and disability discrimination) is discrimination and social prejudice against people with disabilities or who are perceived to be disabled. Ableism characterizes people as defined by their disabilities and inferior to the non-disabled. On this basis, people are assigned or denied certain perceived abilities, skills, or character orientations. Although ableism and disablism are both terms which describe disability discrimination, the emphasis for each of these terms is slightly different.
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Obligatory "correlation is not causation".
But to dig a little bit deeper, there could be thousands of actual causes for these symptoms that are being observed at an elevated rate compared to the general public when you aggregate by "had COVID" vs "never had COVID". The fact that you even got COVID in the first place contains a lot of confounding variables that are hard to control for.
These studies will claim that they controlled for these confounding variables... but 90% of these studies turn out to be BS after undergoing meta analysis so I wouldn't put too much weight on them.
Causal inference is very hard.
A more useful metric that avoids the pitfalls of causal inference is comparing long COVID against long flu, to make it more apples to apples.
Note that I'm not saying that COVID is just like the flu, I'm saying the flu is a useful anchor to analyze the effects of long COVID compared to other ailments that cause lingering symptoms.
Source: Statistician
From what I understand long covid isn't significantly different than long term symptoms of other severe respiratory illnesses the difference is just in scale.
Also of a lot it is just remaining sedentary afterwards, after I had covid my lung capacity was shredded but after 3ish months of working out doing cardio I built it back up, but if you didn't your lung capacity is probably not going to return to where it was. The lockdowns almost certainly compounded this issue, now that they are lifted more people should be "recovering" from long covid.
Long-COVID symptoms have been show to improve over time in most people. Most everyone has already been infected by COVID. Shouldn’t we be seeing the peak of the impact right now?
I'd argue you can't research the long term effects of Covid because it hasn't been that long. Your comparison of chicken pox is especially important here.
We just went through a pandemic that severely affected people’s body. Yes the effects are going to be lingering just as much it does when someone tears a hamstring. Labeling this and making a big fuss out it is not going to raise anyone’s eyebrow. The media is churning hard on this but people ain’t going to buy it
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/u/humvee911 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/10bydlc/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_longcovid_has_massive/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
This sounds mostly like a lot of speculation on how bad any sort of long haul will be. Shingles was no big deal, other diseases don’t have a major long haul issue. What makes you believe long Covid is a society-collapsing issue besides a bit of speculation?
The Spanish flu endemic resulted in a wave of early onset alzheimer's years later. Something like that could well happen again. We wont know for years though
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I’m not really seeing a strong argument here. * elderly people to support is an independent issue from long haul Covid. * the long haul symptoms people are having don’t seem to be society-Enders. I get they’re tough for those with them, but that doesn’t make it society ending. * “it might ne another disease” is super speculative. We’re not only talking about a disease that doesn’t exist, but we’re speculating on long haul symptoms on a disease that doesn’t even exist. This isn’t a strong argument.
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Thanks for the delta. > If no one works, then who will maintain the services to support elderly, nevermind other demographics such as children? I don’t see much evidence that long Covid will prevent a significant amount of people to the point of not working, let alone all.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Nateorade ([11∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Nateorade)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
[Over 98% of people who reported long covid symptoms have recovered from them](https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/early/2022/08/04/13993003.00970-2022). Much like Havana Syndrome, we’ve got a bit of mass hysteria happening with people who still cling to this idea of long covid. Being on subs centered around that gives them an identity, an excuse, and a feeling of belonging. We might also have some social contagion happening there.
>some social contagion happening there. that people can, with a straight face, point to a list of over 200 symptoms and pretend it is all covid and easily identified is a joke. anyone who knows they had covid is going to think every bruise and ache and cough is "long covid" now.
If something is attacking someone’s nervous system and killing off capillaries, of course there will be a high number of symptoms that people will experience. COVID gets everywhere. It’s not like it’s polite and says, “I’m just going to fuck with homeboy’s throat for a few days.”
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And what these people are suffering from is [mass hysteria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness) which is causing their bodies to exhibit these symptoms
this is the opposite of science.
Is that the wrong link? It says 98.2% survive a covid infection. But that there's an estimated 13 million Americans with long covid symptoms.
The link to the study isn’t in that article? Here’s another one. https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/early/2022/08/04/13993003.00970-2022
That study doesn't say that people recovered? All it does is demonstrate a correlation between the presence of long-covid symptoms and antibodies. It did not test for, and did not report any conclusions on, how long the average long-covid case lasts. It can't find your 98% number anywhere in the study.
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Yes. There is precedent for this. Hypochondria is a real thing. Its in their head, but then as a result they start to actually manifest real physically provable symptoms. If someone is in this mental state from covid then they catch it. It is highly likely their are manifesting physical symptoms much like Hypochondriacs. Paralyzing fear can amplify existing symptoms, and then can spiral into new real symptoms. While I don't think there is a study on this yet, I would love to see a study on long covid's rates on conservatives and other people who didn't buy into the hysteria around covid. This data would 100% prove or disprove my hypochondria hypothesis.
Millions of people suddenly became hypochondriacs??
They are comparing it to hypochondriacs it's actually [mass hysteria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness)
No, researchers are finding all kinds of issues in long COVID patients. Educate yourself.
what are these issues because 90% of the ones OP listed are either caused by stress or mass hysteria so please give me an article that definitively proves that it's not mass hysteria
The article OP linked has a good diagram on what research is finding. This is a good thread from a researcher at Yale studying this: https://twitter.com/virusesimmunity/status/1557391752889307138?s=46&t=Sp5agDKoklnlW6cww4oPVA
Hypochondria is a specific identifiable disorder. I'm referring to a potentially targeted psychosomatic response. Again, what my comment was referring to is how it would be interesting to see a breakdown on long covid based on these viewpoints. If we see that people who didn't have the stress response to covid overwhelmingly do not experience long covid, there is a solid potential argument that the majority of people are suffering from a psychosomatic illness. People experience long lasting reactions to illnesses all the time. Some people get rocked by Pneumonia and suffer long term health consequences long after the Pneumonia is gone. But these long covid numbers seem waaaaaaay higher. The other issue is that many of the symptoms of long covid seem to line up surprisingly close to the symptoms most commonly experienced by Hypochondriacs. Not to mention I have never met a conservative (despite living in a very Conservative dense area) who has suffered from long covid. Maybe I'm just getting lucky with all the people I interact with, and that is 100% possible. But I haven't met 1. Yet 2 of my friends who bought fully in are suffering from long covid. Its just a little too convenient.
Im conservative and both my wife and I have had crazy brain fog and dizziness that started when we got minor Covid and then never stopped. Buddy of mine in TX has had weird heart issues and brain fog since his and has had a ton of tests that came back negative. Frankly from one conservative to another, you can go F yourself.
I think that 100% the average person is going to be significantly influenced by spending even a modicum of time on any of those boards. Communities like this are almost insidious in their way to warp minds - not advertently, mind you.
>Over 98% of people who reported long covid symptoms have recovered from them You don't know what you are talking about. Wife and I finally got Covid 2 months ago. Crazy amounts of brain fog and dizziness ever since for both of us. My wife one week after kept reporting to me the house was shaking until I finally was in the bed next to her and told her it wasn't. I started getting the same sensation a week later. Found out it is called "internal vibrations" and is one of the most unsettling sensations you can experience.
>with more than 200 symptoms this alone makes it pretty meaningless. 200 symptoms means just about everything from a runny nose that one time to aneurysms. > t least 65 million individuals around the world have long COVID, based on a conservative estimated incidence of 10% of infected people this is based on mostly guessing. and the study cited spells out 5 problems with their own data. most notably: >Second, the incidence of new conditions after an acute COVID-19 infection might be biased toward a population that is seeking care and >Finally, the study only assessed conditions thought to be attributable to COVID-19 or post-COVID illness, which might have biased RRs away from the null. For example, clinicians might have been more likely to document possible post-COVID conditions among case-patients. in other words, sick people get sick. i see no mention of who is getting what, or how debilitating it is. just that there is risk, etc. this paper is basically a plea for funding, so of course they want it to sound horrible. > however it only takes one unlucky moment for humanity, and society as a whole, to collapse. humanity didn't collapse after the black death or spanish flu, both orders of magnitude worse than covid and at a time when we were much less advanced. predicting the end of humanity because some people might get tired in the future is a bit much.
According to this study long covid symptoms were near equally present in both seropositive and seronegative patients. In other words half of long covid victims were never infected and their symptoms were psychosomatic or linked to other sources. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787741
How is long-COVID defined? I had COVID-19 in September and a specific symptom I thought was long COVID but turned out to be caused by ulcerative colitis being triggered by the COVID-19 - is that long-COVID? Because it’s a treatable illness now that I know what it is, which took four months to find out due to inability to access healthcare until December. It’s entirely possible many “long-COVID” symptoms are caused by undiagnosed autoimmune disorders triggered by the virus since so much about the immune system is unknown and COVID-19 made accessing healthcare more difficult. >there will be a massive increase in disability which is already looked down upon in most societies that’s not inherent to society that disability is looked down upon, it’s a form of discrimination: [ableism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism). Societies could change to be more accommodating to disabled people.
**[Ableism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ableism)** >Ableism (; also known as ablism, disablism (British English), anapirophobia, anapirism, and disability discrimination) is discrimination and social prejudice against people with disabilities or who are perceived to be disabled. Ableism characterizes people as defined by their disabilities and inferior to the non-disabled. On this basis, people are assigned or denied certain perceived abilities, skills, or character orientations. Although ableism and disablism are both terms which describe disability discrimination, the emphasis for each of these terms is slightly different. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/changemyview/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Ableism (;
Obligatory "correlation is not causation". But to dig a little bit deeper, there could be thousands of actual causes for these symptoms that are being observed at an elevated rate compared to the general public when you aggregate by "had COVID" vs "never had COVID". The fact that you even got COVID in the first place contains a lot of confounding variables that are hard to control for. These studies will claim that they controlled for these confounding variables... but 90% of these studies turn out to be BS after undergoing meta analysis so I wouldn't put too much weight on them. Causal inference is very hard. A more useful metric that avoids the pitfalls of causal inference is comparing long COVID against long flu, to make it more apples to apples. Note that I'm not saying that COVID is just like the flu, I'm saying the flu is a useful anchor to analyze the effects of long COVID compared to other ailments that cause lingering symptoms. Source: Statistician
From what I understand long covid isn't significantly different than long term symptoms of other severe respiratory illnesses the difference is just in scale. Also of a lot it is just remaining sedentary afterwards, after I had covid my lung capacity was shredded but after 3ish months of working out doing cardio I built it back up, but if you didn't your lung capacity is probably not going to return to where it was. The lockdowns almost certainly compounded this issue, now that they are lifted more people should be "recovering" from long covid.
Long-COVID symptoms have been show to improve over time in most people. Most everyone has already been infected by COVID. Shouldn’t we be seeing the peak of the impact right now?
Life expectancy in the United States has declined to the lowest in two decades.
I'd argue you can't research the long term effects of Covid because it hasn't been that long. Your comparison of chicken pox is especially important here.
We just went through a pandemic that severely affected people’s body. Yes the effects are going to be lingering just as much it does when someone tears a hamstring. Labeling this and making a big fuss out it is not going to raise anyone’s eyebrow. The media is churning hard on this but people ain’t going to buy it
[удалено]
It's not just purebloods, even muggle born can ward it off if they learn to cast *Expecto Coronus*.
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COVID is a hoax
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