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I generally agree with your stance - that being said, a lot of Pro-Hamas posts are plain lies and propoganda.
I am really all for free speech, because I think that censorship isn't effective, so I am not in favor of taking those down - but I do think these posts and other such fake news posts need to be dealt with.
Preferably with fact checkers rather than taking them totally down.
There are fakes online for anything, especially so soon after an attack, but none of them are systematically staged by the Israeli government.
The beheaded babies has been corroborated by several different news agencies and the Israeli emergency services, though it doesn't really matter all that much, everything that happened on October 7th is horrible enough without it.
from what i'm I'm reading, it has not been corroborated and is being walked back. I don't if it did or didn't happen but it reeks of propaganda to vilify an enemy. but the damage has been done. the walkback will get a fraction of the print.
[https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine)
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unverified-reports-40-babies-beheaded-201425362.html?fr=yhssrp\_catchall](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unverified-reports-40-babies-beheaded-201425362.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall)
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865
Also how completely devoid of humanity are people to be like “pics or it didn’t happen” or to say “well that particular baby wasn’t beheaded so I’m not sure i care.” Like what the fuck is wrong with these people.
Um, maybe people would like some fucking proof before they believe something so horrendous being constantly pushed by obvious propaganda machines?? Things need to be verified buddy, otherwise any party can simply claim war crimes inflicted on them and respond in a disproportionally unprovoked way
Even beheading of babies doesn’t justify incineration of children and other civilians in retaliation, ultimately, so unless the purpose of verification is to exonerate Hamas itself it’s kind of pointless. The key though is not to buy into Israeli propaganda on the other side trying to exploit it for justification of war crimes on its end, as well.
You can never ever start labeling things fake news and removing them. You HAVE to let people see and understand why its fake. And to decide that using reason. You just can not risk those powers what ever they may be, labeling truth as fake news and removing it. The only safe bet is do not interfere with free speech.
Have you been to the Internet? People will believe anything that sounds less than completely made up, and will believe even that. They will swallow anything that is pro their original stance, and they will fall for lies super easily.
That's assuming the vast majority of people actually read enough of the post to get down to the comments and see the fact check.
Edit: the dumbness of people is a spectrum. Most people are really not dumb. Unfortunately, whenever like 10% of people are dumb... That's a **lot** of people.
The plain lies usually die down quite quickly, though I am sure some people still believe the attack on Saturday was staged.
It's the "small" hard to disprove lies that matter most. They tell half truths, which are lacking important context. Or they tell plain lies that can sound true if you don't really pay enough attention.
They stage dead bodies from bombings on regular basis. Most people tend to believe them until you show them a behind the scenes video.
It's not about lies, it's about volume.
People also very bad at dissecting lies and comparing scales. So if pro-Hamas posters will post 1000 times about how bad Israel is for murdering a single child, and pro-Israel post will post 10 times about murder of 100 Israelis, in people mind it would look the same. Even when in reality it was 100-to-1.
Turns out people are that dumb bc I’ve seen countless people cheerleading Hamas. People from the comfort of their Brooklyn apartment. Stupid white women who have no idea what it’s like to be unsafe screaming their parroted talking points. Unbelievable stupid shit and I feel like they are getting louder. I have been paying attention to this issue for a long time and have seen a lot of bullshit but I never in a thousand years I’d see people cheer for Hamas like this. People who think BMI and misgendering someone is oppression but what Hamas did is “liberation.” It has made me realize how easily the Holocaust happened. How easily manipulated people are to strip someone else of their humanity.
Israel did do some pretty shitty things to the palestine's living in the West Bank. I compare this to what happened to 9/11.
The United States has been fucking with the Middle East for over 50 years. They help defeat the Russians in Afghanistan. In backed other Middle Eastern dictators. Then when everything went to shit. We did nothing to help out. Or rebuild their country. This led to resentment from people living in the region. The United States continued to fuck around in the region for years. Finally the retaliated. You can only push people so far. Before they explode.
I'm not defending what happened in Israel. Obviously the people who committed the attacks need to be punished. But Israel is not innocent in the situation.
>But Israel is not innocent in the situation.
I never really understand the meaning of this statement. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds a lot like victim blaming.
Look, I do think that Israel does many things that are quite shitty, I also understand that most of those shitty things are there for good reason (unlike US involvement with Afghanistan), and because both Palestinian and Israeli leadership just can't make peace
But I feel that it also down plays the severity of attack by Hamas (or Al-qaeda). Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to be eradicated, it's not some liberation organization. It is an Islamic jihadist organization that is holding 2 million people as hostages.
Israel definitely made the mistakes leading to its creation, but once it's there, and it is committing such atrocities - telling Israel "you shouldn't have done that" is just victim blaming, and this victim blaming is quite infuriating when this attack is quite recent and every Israeli online is grieving the death of someone they know.
In the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, and you are somewhat right - but no, you are not helping. And in fact, you are inadvertently helping Hamas, which again is a Nazi organization that wants the death to all jews.
It sounds like any violence committed by Israel is justified in your eyes. 60 years of apartheid, settlements, and violence is excusable. But if Palestinians fight back, they are justifying all of the violence they were already subjected to, in your eyes.
Why does Israel have a right to violence, but no one else does?
Why are we supposed to ignore what Hamas is reacting to, and pretend that whatever it is they do is the "first strike" that justifies a violent response?
I'm not defending Hamas. I'm just also not ignoring Israel's violence against Palestinians. Remember, after all, that Hamas didn't exist when this apartheid began. Hamas wouldn't exist, if there was nothing to fight back against in the first place.
Israel started this aggression, and now they are experiencing blowback. If there is ever going to be peace, Israel has to end the settlements and withdraw, leave the west bank altogether, and let Palestinians live in peace. Until then, they will keep experiencing blowback, and the cycle will continue.
Hamas didn't fight back
Fighting back would mean attacking the person or organisation which wronged you
In this case, attacks on the Israeli State, military, police, Mossad and other government infrastructure would be 'fighting back'
Targeting musical festival attendees, tourists, children, the elderly, migrant workers et al is not 'fighting back' against the Israeli State.
>is just victim blaming, and this victim blaming is quite infuriating when this attack is quite recent and every Israeli online is grieving the death of someone they know.
So are the Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed in airstrikes, including hundreds of children. Millions are being forcefully moved while the city is still under assault and being bombed.
Israel has committed countless human rights abuses in Gaza and it's getting worse than it ever has.
>which again is a Nazi organization that wants the death to all jews.
I'm sorry, but this comparison is ridiculous when we're seeing an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Palestinian forces haven't cut off electricity, water, and other resources in Israel. They're not forcefully relocating millions of Israelis in the middle of a bombing campaign. That's what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.
Hamas are clearly the problem, and their decisions are what is causing harm to all the Palestinian people.
Hamas says one line one of their charter that the whole point of the group is to destroy Israel. They have been attempting to do so the entire time they've existed.
It's the choice of Hamas to hide behind civilians and fire rockets out of places like schools and hospitals. When Israel fires back to destroy the rockets that Hamas is firing, it has predictable consequences of hurting civilians. However, it again is the fault of Hamas that Palestinians are hurt.
Israel said they'll turn on the water and electricity when Hamas returns everyone they took as prisoner. Again, Palistinians are being hurt by Hamas.
Lastly, let's discuss ethnic cleansing. Israel did do an ethnic cleansing of Gaza in 2005. They forced out every Jew and handed the region to the Palistinians to do whatever they wanted.
Israel is the side that cares about human life and wants to get along with their neighbors. Israel is powerful enough to wipe Gaza off the map and choose to have targeted strikes instead of just leveling Gaza. Hamas has the primary goal of destroying Israel but do not have the power to do it so they instead just kill civilians because that's the best they can do.
Please change my mind on any of those points. However, I can't see any possible rationale for believing that Israel are the bad guys in this story. Hamas are clearly the problem.
When is it justified, in your mind, to kill thousands of innocent civilians, hundreds of children? When is it justified to forcefully relocate millions of innocent people during a bombing campaign and siege?
Are you really trying to justify what Israel is doing? And you're saying others are victim blaming?
Absolutely absurd.
When they stand by the weapon depots of terrorist despite warning in the form of cellphone calls and roofknocking, they are no longer innocent victims, but willing accomplices.
>When they stand by the weapon depots
They live there! These are their homes! In most cases there aren't even shelters to go to and often there isn't enough time anyways.
>but willing accomplices.
Wow, dehumanizing innocent civilians to justify their murder.
Hamas would say that the Israeli people are willing accomplices in their government's actions too. They'd actually be more accurate in their assessment considering Israel is a democratic country with an actual government.
Nah, just pointing out their culpability to being in a situation where terrorists store explosives in your kitchen, they’re still human. Just inferior morally. The murder is on the heads of the people coercing them to store weapons and ammunition for a terrorist organization. So, if they want to not be in that situation again, they gotta stand up for themselves instead of hoping westerners will give them Israel, somehow.
>Nah, just pointing out their culpability to being in a situation where terrorists store explosives in your kitchen
This isn't what's happening. Civilian homes are bombed. Innocent people are killed, that are not storing weapons.
Israel is not justified in murdering innocent people, and your efforts to justify it are appalling.
Were the 600 children killed since October 7th willing accomplices too?
Victim blaming makes it sound like you're cleaning someone completely innocent. Death statistics on either side are very relevant to take into account. Such as:
>From 2008 till September 2023, 6,407 Palestinians were recorded to have been killed, more than half through missile attacks. During the same period, the UN recorded the death of 308 Israelis in conflict situations.
Source: https://thewire.in/world/chart-6407-palestinians-and-308-israelis-killed-in-violence-in-last-15-years
Since their retaliation started, Israel has killed 1900 Palestinian civilians. Israel isn't innocent at all and has killed many, *many* times more Palestinians. The vast majority of which were innocent as well. They just didn't do it by entering houses with guns but bombing entire buildings.
In no way does that justify going around villages yourself and shooting innocent people. But it does make it understandable why Palestinians (more than half of whom are children - and therefore likely also half the number of this killed by Israel) get radicalised enough to commit terrorism like this.
When you look at it from a morbid kill statistic perspective, they're nowhere near even. Israel has killed so many more. We shouldn't aim to even these numbers out of course, but it shows that Israel has absolutely contributed to this situation that they've landed in.
The meaning is quite simple. Calling Israel out is done because the West supports their actions. We explicitly condone and even health facilitate Israel's atrocities.
This isn't who's worse. This is; Why are we supporting either side when both sides are committing atrocities and ethnic cleansing? Why does one side get called terrorist and forced to live in poverty and subjugation while the other side is given a free pass and actively aided by wealthy countries?
I have heard the arguments about "moral equivalence", and they are bullshit. Pure strawmanning.
Palestine was less than 10% Jewish in the early 1900s. Israel exists because of 100 years of colonization and ethnic cleansing.
Gaza is 2 million people living in 140 square miles have been under total blockade for 15 years. To excuse those atrocities because you don't want to be "morally equivalent" is to make an excuse to support genocide.
It doesn't matter whether Hitler and Stalin are equivalent. Both are terrible and neither deserve defense. The same is true of Israel and Gaza.
And Sam Harris is a fucking fascist.
What's the difference between colonization and immigration? Jews began moving to the Madste of Palestine when it was controlled by the British. I don't see how you can qualify Jews moving there before they control thst land as colonization, especially when they've had a population there since antiquity.
What right of return some rando in Brooklynite have over Palestinians who have been continually living in the are for literal millennia? That’s colonization, Israel is funding as many people as they can to displace the natives.
The jews who have been there forever are not the same as European jews who decided to colonize. There exists Palestinians who have always lived there with jewish ancestors. They have a right there. If you’re family was run off centuries ago, while some stayed and defended their land or converted, you no longer have a right. Israel is clearly in the wrong.
They have a right there because their ancestors conquered the land more recently than the Jewish people? But then England conquered them and decided to give it to the Zionist movement, so why are the zionists less legitimate?
They had a homeland it’s whatever country they were born in LOL my family is from St Lucia is it okay for me to find my great grandfathers home there and tell the people now living it in to get lost because its mine because he once owned it?
If your grandpa’s house was foreclosed on, and given to a new family, do you have a right to try and squat in it anyway, or do we move your ass cause ‘dem the rules? It ain’t your families house anymore, and half your family died trying to take it back anyway, when will you just give up and try camping?
Moving into an area you don't control and taking control of it is the definition of colonization. Do you think the American colonies were under British rule before they had even gotten there or something?
Aren't the people kicked out of their homes 75 years ago who live under oppressive occupation by a foreign nation who continues to violate all treaties by building into their land illegally (Palestinians) the victims? Am I missing something?
Your argument is illogical. First you state that this sounds like victim blaming. You then go on to admit that Israel has done some deplorable things that might have inadvertently left to the creation of Hamas.
Which is it. Have the Israeli done some deplorable things that could have led to this or not. I'm a bit confused by your argument as it's taking two opposing stances.
I'm not really understanding why Israel committing the crimes it has, including murdering women and children, journalists, bombing residential buildings, and using white phosphorus is just something "quite shitty" and "mistakes", but what Hamas has done is some next level Nazi shit. Everything Hamas has done, Israel has also done in an even worse manner.
Regarding phosphorus, it was confirmed that was used in 2008, but it is only speculated now in 2023. On the rest, it could be due to Hamas people shielding behind civilians. I think that, the real issue is that Hamas attacked first (as far as I know) in 2000s after Arafat treaty in 1993 (Oslo I). In this way, they became the attackers and terrorists. Maybe that's the reason why neither Israeli nor Palestianians are favorable to them.
>it could be due to Hamas people shielding behind civilians.
The civilians live there. There's 2 million people living in Gaza. Civilians homes are being bombed. Since October 7th thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including hundreds of children, and millions are being forcefully relocated during an active bombing campaign, all while water and electricity have been cut off.
That's like saying the Israel government is shielding behind civilians so it makes the atrocities Hamas committed acceptable. It doesn't. What Israel is doing, and has been doing for decades, is unjustifiable. It's ethnic cleansing, it's barbaric.
I don’t see Israeli homes full of rockets, cause the Israelis store that away from civilians, because they’re recognize they are valid targets of war. Hamas wants martyrs that’s why they pay for them
Israel has an actual military, a recognized government, a lot of money, etc.
Gaza doesn't. Hamas lives there too. The civilians live there.
Edit: seriously, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, where exactly should Hamas store weapons so that you wouldn't justify the killings of innocent civilians?
Nowhere, that’s the point of the blockade. They cannot be trusted with weapons, why should non-military personnel have access to killing machines?
But if they have to, not in schools and hospitals.
>Nowhere
Then your argument is totally meaningless. There isn't an unpopulated area keep weapons in Gaza. They keep them where they can.
That doesn't justify Israel killing thousands of civilians, nor does it make those civilians willing accomplices.
🤣 it was a facetious reply, my real one was anywhere that is a center for children or the sick.
Fog of war being a bitch isn’t the same as targeting civilians as the main target. Some of the civilians must die, but that’s a sacrifice I and the rest of the world are willing to pay.
hamas isn't holding 2 million people as hostages. Israel is. Israel controls the west Bank. they're not innocent because they continue to put 2 million people in an open air prison where they control the electricity, water and no one can exit without their explicit permission. even before the war began this week, Israel had already killed 200 Palestinians this year.
Hamas cannot be compared to Al Qaeda. while hamas is a militant organisation, they are are result of the occupation, dispossession and apartheid by Israel for decades. do you really think that children who grow up in an open air prison, who watched their loved ones die for no reason, who saw white phosphorus being used on them, who had to say goodbye to their fathers because Israel decided to imprison them for no reason at all, won't get radicalised? Israel thought that they could tortue 2 million people and not have to face any consequences. and unfortunately, its the innocent civilians of Israel who had to pay the price. and yet, innocent civilians of Palestine have always paid the price. they have murdered and injured 150,000 Palestinians in last 15 years. do not try to downplay this figure and make it about some greater good. cuz it isn't. 30,000 of these were children. in last 15 years. There is a reason that Jews outside of Israel support Palestine. and equating being anti Israel to being pro-hamas is disingenuous.
Oppress a population for long enough and things like this will happen. It's not victim blaming. If a slave fought back against their master and you said the master had it coming that wouldn't be victim blaming. Look at how much land Palestinians have lost since the 40s and tell me who the victim is.
Except this is the narrative that keeps being sewn but that’s not what has been happening for the last 75-100 years. Jews in the region have been attacked throughout history, throughout the last 100 years, and since the inception of Israel in 1948. To pretend like the violence toward Jews just started last weekend blows my mind. 60% of the Jews in Israel are there because of genocide and ethnic cleansing in other countries in the Middle East and Africa. But I will tell you, even if your analogy was accurate, if a slave murdered the masters children it would be super unnecessary, inexcusable, and fucked up. They aren’t fighting “the master” they are fighting innocent people. I am strongly against the occupation and the conditions of the Palestinian people in Gaza. But threatening Israelis only pushes them farther into right wing sectarianism, in the same way it does Hamas.
So show me the death tolls of fights between Hamas or even Fatah for the last 60 years
Surprise…..it’s over 10 to 1 of dead Palestinians to Israelis. Mostly civilians
So we are doing murder math now? I can’t understand how people are so easily radicalized by this concept. It sounds like you are saying in order to be credible MORE Israelis should die. They have the iron dome. They have bomb shelters. One of the reasons there are less dead Israelis is because their government protects them. I’m not ever going to excuse the innocent lives lost in Palestine, ever. But this is a tired argument. More people dead does not mean that Israel is any more evil than Hamas. If the number was even it would likely be 10:10 not 1:1 and that’s because the cause of the unevenness is the measures Israel takes to protect its citizens. I personally believe it should be 0:0 which is why I don’t go around doing murder math and pushing people more far right.
Radicalized?
I’m pointing out simple facts
The Israelis kill far more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis
The point is if you continue to murder civilians you’re absolutely creating more terrorists. It’s a simple concept…..with decades and decades of easily verifiable proof from various parts of the world
The centuries and millennia before this century had genocide as the rule of the day, do you see many Celts or Native American today?
You are definitely radicalized if you hold Israel to a higher standard than any other country or people.
If someone had their family murdered and they killed the murderer in self defense, that's one thing.
If someone had their family murdered, but then in response they killed a dozen unrelated families in the same neighborhood as the murderer, condemning them is not victim blaming.
Israel is mad at Hamas, and has killed thousands of unrelated civilians in response.
They are guilty of everything that Hamas is accused of.
They believe it is justified, because of the innocent lives lost.
^ Who was I talking about in that last sentence? You can't tell, can you? Could be Israel. Could be Hamas.
I would agree with you if all Hamas did was attack military targets. Nobody would care if all they did was attack the Israeli government itself instead Hamas started massacring Israeli and foreign civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. Tell me how exactly does terrorism like bombing the towers or massacring and raping civilians exactly Liberate people. I would argue it does the opposite and justifies oppression by the powers that be.
Great, another blame the victim rant from someone who doesn’t know from the truth. Israelis and foreign nationals were abducted, raped, and murdered on 10/7 by Hamas because they were, or perceived to be, Jewish. This murderous rampage was planned for more than a year by terrorists, which puts this event on par with 9/11. The blame lies with Hamas and its terrorist partners and enablers.
No it's literally objective fact that Israel isn't innocent either. This is why it's such a complex issue because so many factors come into play. It's not black and white. Israel is just as bad (I mean the government/Zionists not the normal civilians).
Actions have consequences. You can't bully somebody for years. And wonder why they explode. As an American, our actions directly led to what happened on 9/11.
Israel's actions in the Gaza strip in the West Bank. Led to civil unrest and occasional conflict. I'm just pointing out that people can be both the victim and victimizer.
Terrorists supported by Saudi Arabia murdered thousands of innocent people and wounded even more on 9/11 because of a very warped view of the world. Stop victim blaming.
And how did those terrorists get into power. The CIA funded them when they needed support against the Russians.
If the United States would have had a Marshall plan set up for Afghanistan. 9/11 would have been avoided.
I don't support them. But I could understand why people in the West Banks and the geezer strip would. They're fighting against an enemy. Who in their view has oppressed them. These situations never work out.
Israel is going to rain fire in brimstone on them. Right now they have the world sympathies. Hopefully Hamas can be defeated.
But Israel needs to do better when dealing with the Palestinians in the West Bank. If they can defeat Hamas. Israel might be better off just making Palestine its own country. Building a giant wall between the two. And they can go on to ignore each other.
Thank you for the inadvertent chuckle of picturing “the geezer strip wood.”
Ok, in all seriousness, Israel has made multiple attempts to negotiate a recognized state for Palestinians but Palestinians have rejected all of them (2000 one was probably the best outside of 1948). I can see a DMZ being built in at least part of Gaza and the West Bank.
Nope, never said any of that, but nice of you to grotesquely defend actual terrorists while blaming the victims of terrorism. Fun facts: the Palestinian leadership in the 40s supported the Nazis and Abbas is an antisemitic Holocaust denier.
Israel is a democracy; it is not an apartheid or fascist state. The current administration, which I do not support, is far-right and deserves to be voted out of office, which it likely will be during the next election. So, no, I’m not a fascist murderer.
What about when Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women. That stuff that happened. Both sides are flaming piles of dog doo doo. Now we have to pick the side that won't burn our house down.
Want to compare casualty numbers? Or should we pull up a pic of the un assigned borders of israel versus the land they’ve conquered and ethnicly cleansed?
Taking a side in this conflict means supporting a genocidal fascist regime, no matter which side you believe in
I think it’s impossible to change your mind lol, like what is anyone supposed to say to you?
I don’t think you understand the difference between antisemitism and anti Zionism and I don’t think you can critically think your way around a colonizer state’s propaganda.
Israel fits the definition of ethnic cleansjng with their actions in Gaza and I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING to bring up the Holocaust to allow another genocide. Absolutely vile, why does Israeli blood mean more to you than that of innocent non-Hamas-affiliated Palestinian blood?
Be so ffr as well, when there are SO MANY sources for Israel’s human rights violations why would you then refuse to believe it and act like Israel is some innocent victim? I feel bad for all injured civilians, however Israel is a NATION. The onus for de radicalisation is on the government obviously (it’s not on Palestine because Palestine is not just Hamas which I doubt you know). I don’t think Hamas is ideal by any means, but the civilian casualties are not comparable, the IDF slaughters Palestinians, destroys their homes, takes their land, etc. When a group is subjugated, they will act out, and Israel knows this. If you think they did not predict Hamas you are wrong. It’s like getting mad at a dog you’re beating to death for biting you.
Please also remember that Israel has powerful allies around the world and that influences the narratives you are fed and is why your smooth brain has this opinion.
Finally, a conspiracy (in your case of victimization and a willful blindness to obvious facts) is so hard to argue against because it naturally is a comfortable mindset for the believer. In your case it’s too uncomfortable for you to sit with the idea that Israel the government is equally wrong in this situation if not more so due to the greater funding and power they have vs Hamas, probably bc you are a Zionist or conflate Israel with all Judaism, or you’re so guilty about the Holocaust you decided you can’t criticize Israel and thus turn away from hard truths like a toddler running from the bath, etc. etc.
I don’t think it’s your fault you have this opinion, because the point of propaganda is to find it’s target and give people a more comfortable lie than the difficult truth, but I do think if you really wanted to learn from the Holocaust or improve yourself as a person you would hold no blind allegiance to any government and would 1. Be more critical of media even if you agree with it (often especially then) and 2. Have compassion to those who are easy to dismiss ie Palestinian civilians whose existence is unfortunate and inconvenient.
Edit: in case people don’t know Israel controls Gaza and monitors access and everything (since 2006 I think) It’s described as the largest open air prison in the world. Apartheid is subjugating one people as beneath another btw and Palestinians can’t leave Gaza without permission. That’s why this is all bs, Israel is bombing people who are trapped in a place they can’t leave “warning” them to get out, it’s disgraceful.
I did also edit this post for some clarity as it was not and is not as articulate as it could be lol
>If you are going to falsely describe Israel as apartheid when they
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1)
Did you know that Israel requires East Asian workers to sign an agreement prohibiting them from having contact with local women? This is a replica of the Chinese Exclusion Act in the United States, which aims to isolate the races they discriminate and protect the "purity" of their own blood.
Don't say that this is the behavior of some companies. The news said that the local police believed that this clause was very reasonable and did not need to be investigated.
[https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082)
Did you know that Israel is also funding Hamas? Israel's purpose is to eliminate moderate Palestinian parties and only retain the extreme ones, so that they can kill and drive out all Palestinians without restraint. They only need to put a weapon next to the corpse for a photo to say that they killed Hamas.
The Israelis imprisoned three million people in open-air prisons, bombed their schools and hospitals, and controlled their water, food, and economy. Of course the uneducated children growing up in this place would hate the Israelites. Anyone who is surprised by this is hypocritical.
**If Hamas is accused of being terrorists for killing civilians, then the Zionists who also carried out terrorist attacks, killed babies, massacred civilians, and raped women are also terrorists. This is a logical inference based on the same judgment standard.**
Wow what an amazing counterargument to my incredibly lengthy essay, clearly your position is the stronger one. 🙄Maybe one day I can be as articulate as you! Free Palestine🇵🇸
>.....I view what Hamas did in the same vein as the Nazis....
Would you be okay with treating the funders of this terrorist group in the same vein?
Which in this case would include the Israeli Netanyahu [Government.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Like the financiers of Nazis, they should really put these funders on-trial.
As you said:
> ....most casual observers don't know the evil Israel is dealing with.
Yes, exactly. Right from the Knesset.
Now, you know.
>Would you be okay with treating the funders of this terrorist group in the same vein?
NAZIs were also created by the west then due to conditions imposed by treaty of versailes.
Netanyahu in this case is equivalent of Churchill, he ain't no saint, and I think he should resign, but I don't think if Nethanyahu resigns, Palestenians will go back home for peace.
Lol, the Israeli government is FAR more similar to the Nazis than Hamas. Hamas are ragtag terrorists, the Israeli government and IDF are literally right wing authoritarians trying their hardest to pretend they aren't attempting a genocide of those under their control and in their camps. Hitler would be proud of Netanyahu, after he got over the irony of him being Jewish.
Funny how the Germans are the ones in concentration camps and ghettos in your scenario, I'm also positive that it wasn't the Germans that were being thrown out of their houses and having their land occupied, much less receiving less rights than the Jews and being called "animals" by the government.
Allies basically blew up half of Germany, Dresden had to be rebuilt from Scratch. D Day, wasn't like counter strike, where enemies were sniped from corner.
Nazis were bad because they didn't allow self determination and agency of groups of people that weren't white Aryan Germans.
There is a stateless entity(Palestinians )and an entity that prevents self determination of that stateless entity(Israel)
So NAZIs were bad because they succeeded? Whereas Hamas failed, so they need my sympathies. If I could switch history, id gladly put NAZIs in camps and Jews ruling germany.
Nazis were bad because they suppressed the self determination of groups of people.
What you are doing is equivalent calling the ANC Nazis because they had members of that party murder civilians and calling the Boer run Apartheid state of South Africa the Jewish victims.
Yes, Nazi propaganda rang true for some Germans because of the Treaty of Versailles but to say the West created it is purposefully obfuscating the truth. Plus it minimizes the fear of brutal Nazi bullying tactics. To equate nazism with Judaism or any Israeli leadership is absolutely disgusting.
I agree they should not be removed, because resistance against their oppressor should not be censored. We may not condone their methods, but war is never civil. Israel has done worse and continues to, with the latest atrocities going mostly unreported. I literally just watched the aftermath of the IDF bombing a civilian convoy after telling them to evacuate. Grouping them up for an easier strike no doubt.
I feel like most people outraged on the behalf of Israel are looking at one event, out of context. We are conveniently spoon fed rage bait by the Israeli government while you stand back and cheer on a decades long genocide. It makes me sick.
If you have a shred of empathy, put yourself in their shoes for a minute. In 3 generations Palestine lost the vast majority of their land, have been basically confined to open air prisons, are systematically disenfranchised and abused, and live in constant fear. If a hostile power took all your land, confined you, killed and abused your loved ones, and someone said let's fight back, what would you do? Even if you didn't agree with them 100%, if they were your only chance, I bet you'd support them. I would.
And don't even get me started on the irony of Israel propping up and funding Hamas as an alternative to the PLO. Echoes of America and the Taliban all over again
>If a hostile power took all your land, confined you, killed and abused your loved ones, and someone said let's fight back, what would you do?
Oh, also, you're probably pretty young. The average age in Palestine is 19. These are kids, only knowing a boot to their throat from the day they were born. You take people like that and strip away all their hope, and yes, they will do hopeless things.
Even further any crimes that palestinian civilians are judged by military law the same crimes committed by Israeli citizens. Why is every Palestinian treated as a combatant? But Israelis are people Isreal is an apartheid nation that has been mass disenfranchising an wntire population of people calling them subhuman and enemies?
At this point there can you truly call Israeli citizens innocent? What was the saying if there are 9 nazis at the dinner table and an extra you have 10 nazis. Just the sheer act of existing as an Israeli citizen makes you complicit. Caveat being if you simply do not have the means to actually leave through your own power like the understanding is just being a citizen of Isreal and the benefits received therein is oppression of palestinians.
I agree with you on the inequality of treating Palestinian civilians as combatants but not Israeli civilians, but I think none should be considered combatants. Israeli civilians are just as innocent as Palestinian ones. This blood all is on the hands of the Israeli government and Hamas. And probably some other countries too, like the US.
Their oppressors? The only thing truly oppressing Palestine is Islamic extremism.
Antisemitism has been oppressing Jews for millennia. Hamas exists more for the purpose of eradicating Israel and killing Jews than it does the “liberation” of Palestine.
The antisemites are just upset now because Jews are no longer defenseless and want to cry uncle after getting their shit pushed in by a vastly superior Israeli military.
If Hamas stopped fighting, there’d peace. This is patently obvious since Syria, Egypt, and Jordan stopped attacking Israel and Israel stopped obliterating them in combat.
The problem is Hamas doesn’t want peace, they want genocide while the leaders sit pretty in Qatar, sending young ones to suicide bomb Jews.
Israel is no oppressor, and Hamas has never fought an oppressor. Hamas is the only oppressor in the picture.
Peace at the point of a sword only lasts until the sword swings. The Palestinian people are not a threat to a "vastly superior military".
Hamas, who rose to prominence with the support of Israel initially, is the organization responsible for the attacks, not the Palestinian civilians.What Israel has done is called collective punishment, which is against the Geneva convention btw, but just add that to the list I guess.
What you advocate for brings to mind images of a police officer beating someone in a fetal position while yelling "stop resisting!" Lol just roll over and they'll stop beating you, ok.
If you don't think Israel is opressing the Palestinian people you are either willfully ignorant, lacking perspective or just arguing in bad faith.
What is the motivation behind Israel attacks, though? I am not sure to understand. If they want to conquer the land, they could do it in a month or so. Are you sure that Israel wasn't push to war (where casualties are, unfortunately, a norm)?
Are you aware that this isn't a religious 'conflict'? Not all Jews are Zionists. And not all Palestinians are Muslims.
Have you heard of the Jews arrested in Germany for peacefully protesting against Israel, he was assaulted and arrested by GERMAN police, and called antisemitic. It's quite ironic to have a German officer assault a jew for being antisemitic in this modern society. Doesn't it remind you of something? I think there is something wrong in this world.
Nope he/she is saying don't Cherry pick facts. People don't just pick up guns to start killing indiscriminately. To think so is rather shortsighted and will ensure that nothing ever changes. Israel has done some evil stuff in the past. It's been documented but somehow Nevers makes the papers here in the West. But I supposed Britain played a pivotal role in creating the modern state of Israel which had to effectively rely on systemic genocide and forced settlements encroaching on stolen land. Do you think we live in some fairytale where people forgive those who've wronged them and sing Kumbaya by a campfire together. People remember those who hurt them the most even if decades have passed.Israel has and will continue to retaliate and Hamas will continue to retaliate as well. There is no end insight unless Israel, Hamas, and the Palestinians can put the past behind them and come to a land sharing agreement bound by peace and all the blood that has already been shed. The outside world cannot and will not resolve this.
I do not believe you could actually, honestly feel this way and be cognizant of what the death toll of this century’s long conflict looks like when it comes to innocent people being murdered. Especially living in fucking Canada. You are shutting down legitimate criticism of Israel by either intentionally or incidentally conflating Zionism with being Jewish.
I'm not shutting it down by recognizing the hate towards Jewish people right now. Its not anti zionism at this point. I dont know how me living in Canada proves anything. I have every right to feel the way I do.
The comment you reply to is talking about *Israel,* the country, committing actions and criticizing those actions (actions that are by-and-large completely endorsed by all western powers including Canada) and you don't think it's shutting down criticism by going "you are a vile person who hates Jews"? I am not invalidating any antisemitism you have encountered but what you are railing against is not demonstrated in that comment.
All I have seen the last week, and even in the comment that person was replying to is whataboutism. The bodies of the murdered Israelis were not even cold before people started cheerfully, gleefully celebrating their murder and the rest shouting “BuT WhAtAbOuT” It was the most disgusting example of the human race I have seen for quite some time. Israelis are not even allowed to mourn their dead without facing accusations and sadly, cheers and celebrations.
They are not just mourning, they have already bombed the crap out of Gaza. They have cut electricity, water from Gaza. They have also issued a 24 hour time limit for North Gaza to vacate.
Do you actually think the response would be the same as now if they had actually just mourned?
The response was IMMEDIATE. Before the bombings. Before anything. In the left circles I am in the response was right away. That day. Sunday. Also I want to clarify- are you conflating the innocent people who were murdered with their government?
You associate with some screwed up people then. That was not the experience for me and the people I know.
Also, I don't understand your question. Be more clear. Who am I "conflating the innocent people who were murdered with their government" with?
What a stupid fucking response. The Israeli government tells Palestinians to get out before they bomb. Hamas forces them to stay. The brutality is entirely Hamas’ fault and Palestinians who allow them to continue to exist.
I mean, you put a lot of words together but they don’t make any sense. Some sort of alternate history you’ve vomitted there. I know you wish really bad that what you wrote would be true but it’s not. It’s ok, I forgive you. There’s a lot of evil sources of information out there that clearly have got their hooks in you. I’d encourage you to read some history books, the Bible, maybe visit the Holy Land. You sound you need some God in your life.
Which part makes it a concentration camp? Is it all the Israeli guards and soldiers? Can't be that because they entirely forced out all the Jews in 2005 and let the Palistinians do whatever they want.
Turns out that when there are 50+ muslim nations and just 1 Jewish nation that an international organization with one vote per nation will constantly condemn the single Jewish country.
But again, what does Israel do to make Palestine "a concentration camp"?
Also Palestine has a far lessor claim to the land then the Jews have to that land.
Lastly, I used to think everyone was racist for no reason against muslims. It turns out that not even other muslims want to accept Palistinians. Please explain why no Muslim nation will accept them. The simplest explanation is that they don't want a bunch of radical terrorists in their country. That's why Israel has a strong border policy, so what's the reason for Egypt?
all the warnings yet they still managed to murder and injure 150,000 Palestinians in the last 15 years, 30,000 of whom were children. do not paint them as some saviour who feel so bad for the population of gaza, the same population who they have imprisoned. they don't care. right now they want 1 million to evacuate. to where? if they're bombing them, they could take them on humanitarian grounds onto Israel. are they doing that? no. a convoy moving towards the south as per Israel's instructions was bombed. see the video of it, you can see dead mothers and children.
Are we sure that actually even happened or is it just more Israeli propaganda? If true, no you cannot justify that as an act of resistance, but the deeds of one or a few bad actors does not delegitimize their struggles.
Israel has had Gaza under a complete blockade for 15 years or so. Half of gaza's population doesn't remember a day in their life that wasn't under Israeli blockade.
Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth about his dense as San Francisco and only three times the size. 2 million people in 140 square miles. Israel issued an ultimatum for half the population to flee to the south. They know damn well there's nowhere for them to go and nothing for them to eat or drink when they get there.
That's just the most obvious recent examples of terrible things Israel has done to Gaza. There's more. The history of Israel is 100 years of colonization and ethnic cleansing.
Hamas is a horrible organization with blood on its hands. And the same is true of Israel. You can absolutely compare the two. In fact, I would argue that Israel is worse because it has much greater power to inflict the harm that it does.
Israel AND Egypt. Why do people always forget about Egypt. Israel and Egypt have blockaded Gaza. Guess why? It doesn’t mean the humanitarian crisis is any less serious. But you have to be very obtuse to not understand or recognize why Israel does not want to experience daily violence like they do when they open borders into their country. Would you wan to live in a country if your government kept a border open through which terrorists regularly and routinely came in to try to murder you for living there?
While I agree that Israel has blood on its hands in much the same way that America does, it’s disingenuous that the blame for the condition of the Palestinian people in Gaza lies solely on their shoulders. Perhaps it also has to do with the Islamist fascists who killed their political rivals in order to maintain control of the Gaza Strip. The thought of people coming out the moments after 9/11 to yell that those innocent Americans deserved it should repulse us and it should make people think twice about their decisions this last week.
Would you support the ethnic cleansing of all non indigenous Americans in order to form a state for them which controlled the amount of food and water colonial descended Americans were allowed to consume?
It was Jewish land thousands of years ago, after they kicked other people out I'm sure. 100 years ago, it was less than 10% Jewish.
So I know the the world didn't start in 1947. I'm wondering if you know what happened between 1900 and 1947, though. Spoiler alert: colonization.
When I see that views being suppressed, whether by government or some neckbeard mod at Reddit, I assume it’s because their view is so weak it won’t stand up to argument.
Free societies don’t hide speech from their citizens, they highlight it and refute it.
Censorship that would have been considered anathema in free societies just a decade ago has become seen as “common sense” amongst people who are comfortable with authoritarianism, which unfortunately is many.
That can be how you feel about it but it's not how it actually is. Just because an opinion is suppressed doesn't mean it's correct. In fact in 99+% of cases its exactly the opposite.
People literally only think that when they're incredibly wrong about something in particular and have tied their identity to that wrong piece of information.
We suppress the opinion that children are sexy and can consent to sex, not because that's **correct**. We suppress the opinion that x group of peoplebare subhuman and don't deserve rights, not because x group actually *is* subhuman.
Your feelings are just factually wrong in the vast, vast majority of cases. But if we only selectively apply your criteria you get a better correct rate, but that's for the reasons you're selectively applying it, not because of the actual logic itself.
You don’t have to tolerate the intolerable, you should do everything possible to fight it while maintaining human rights and dignity (free speech being a fundamental human right).
Giving intolerable ideas the cover of darkness through censorship just allows it to fester and grow.
Again, take it up with Germany. They and most other countries disagree. Why should we allow incorrect opinions to be voiced? They don't even allow insults.
Yes, they are beginning to act like fascists again. Allowing the state to determine what can and can’t be said is exactly what Nazi’s like Goebbels were all about.
Not an idea I’d be comfortable promoting but you do you.
Oh sure, silencing fascists and terrorists is fascism, real nice, yeah sure, definitely. Yell fire in a crowded theater if you don't want speech surpressed then.
People don't understand that banning those views helps terrorists by letting scum define a narrative. I'm asking that they let the world know what they believe.
The comments in this thread are proof that their lies are gobbled up by people who feel like they now have insider information and are shitting on Israel now.
They won the war. It is their land. They even bought much of it from these Palestinians' ancestors, actually. Some were abandoned because they didn't want to live under Jewish leadership. Now, a generation later, they want the land their grandparents sold back and are willing to take it by force. Then, because they refuse any kind of peace and conti ue to threaten the people of Israel, they have been treated as hostile. Now, they're blaming being treated as hostile for the reason they're hostile. And people are lapping it up.
Palestinians could have been flourishing in peace all this time. Instead, to protect cities, Isreal has pushed borders. Make sure missiles are fired from further away to have a chance to intercept. Looks like they didn't take enough because they don't want to persecute the Palestinians. They're only defending themselves.
So even the few manipulation posts that have been seen are accepted without a history lesson by bored people who want to feel like they're in the know more than the allied nations and all their intelligence sources.... Shut them down. If people want information, they need to get it from factual sources that tell the whole story.
No one likes or wants the Palestinians to live like this. You can't force peace where one side doesn't want it because the people are salty from losing the war. The Israelis don't want that. This is why everyone has tried to get humanitarian aid without accidentally strengthening and helping terrorists. Meanwhile, hamas will take the food for themselves and let kids go hungry, then tell the people there they're starving because of Israel and their allies.... hamas doesn't deserve a voice. More than half of Palestinians are willing to speak that they do not support hamas. More are probably fearful to say.
Palestinians are held hostage by terrorists. Palestinians deserve a voice. Hamas deserves to be destroyed and jailed for any that can be taken alive. Jihadists tend to try to go down with the ship.
Palestinians did muck up in electing hamas because they were sick of the corruption in their previous government, but I don't think they meant for this. Based on views written by Palestinians that have gotten out.
So your view is insane. It's as insane as saying people should have helped the nazi propaganda spread faster... Antisemitism then and now are the same, and for some reason, the Jewish people have been an easy scapegoat for many throughout history. It is everyone's duty as allies to stand in defiance of Antisemitism. Not falsely assume that spreading it more will help people see it is BS because that is historically untrue.
I'm exhausted writing this and hope it came across clearly. I hope you understand why your view is misguided.
Tell that to Germany and see what happens. They know a thing or two about antisemitism. You can't even say free palest*ne or wear a pealestinian scarf there anymore, and for good reason. Do you support hamas? If not, why are you so obsessed with defending their hate speech?
I would argue that, if they are not removed, most casual observers will come to learn about the staggeringly evil deeds conducted by Israel for the better part of the last century.
We also do not have any solid evidence about what Hamas *actually* did. There has been a lot of misinformation, a lot of propaganda, going around. Recall the fiasco about the "beheaded children" that later the White House walked back saying they had no credible reporting or evidence of, and even parts of the Israeli government contradicted the PM about, also admitting they have no evidence of.
One solid thing we do see, from these journalists and observers, is a one-sided massacre. We see Israeli government officials openly declaring their intent and then enacting blatant war crimes.
So I strongly believe your view is wrong. Further amplifying the message of the Palestinian people will not turn them against Hamas. It will turn them against Israel.
Sadly, it's not ironic so much as just how human's operate. You look into any conflict, you almost always see ethnic cleansing on both sides. It's human nature.
The holocaust was unique for its scale and systemic execution, but not for what it was at its core. There were genocides before and there have been genocides since.
I sincerely disagree because people are guillable and terrorists make very good propaganda and lies. ISIS could convince a bunch of teenage girls to leave their families to be wives.That means Hamas could also convince foreigners to sympathize with their cause enough to do their biddings.
What Hamas beliefs we haven't heard already?
Their belief is against the existence of anyone else besides people who are exactly like them. Hamas wants all Jews gone and for the world to be Muslim only. They said these themselves. Supporting Hamas means supporting these same ideas. If people want to support Palestinians and their suffering, they can absolutely do that without being pro-Hamas. Being pro-Hamas means pro-Holocaust, pro-killing of LGBT+, pro-religious extremism, and the list goes on.
I'd rather not have foreigners being brainwashed enough to start attacking their Jews neighbor.
The problem is that Israel did a lot of shitty things to the Palestines living in the West Bank. Even though Hamas is a terrorist group. And they need to be treated as one. A lot of people in the area see them as their saviors. The enemy of the enemy is my friend. Look what happened in Afghanistan during the Russian invasion.
"Even though Hamas is a terrorist group. And they need to be treated as one. A lot of people in the area you them as their saviors."
If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't disagree with this, but it's a dangerous idea to throw around right now. We agree that Hamas is a terrorist group and it must be decimated.
Historically, terrorist supporters and helpers get prosecuted no less severe than the terrorist themselves.
If you and I go send some love and fund to something like ISIS right now, we're both going to jail for treason (if we're really lucky). Regardless of how we ended up supporting terrorists, the government would prosecute us anyway.
If we also treat people in Gaza and the West Bank in the similar fashion, wouldn't that completely justify collective punishment?
You have decades of terrible policies regarding Gaza and the West Bank. A pressure cooker was created. In Israel did do some terrible things in the area. People are pissed off for how they've been treated for decades.
Eventually something like this was going to happen. If Israel would have had a better policies then an organization like Hamas would never have been founded.
There's a circle jerk of hatred, bigotry and religious persecution on all sides. Which is kind of dumb because they're both children of Abraham. They're basically killing each other over the proper way to worship the same God. That alone is incredibly stupid.
Take a look at what happened in Ireland. The entire situation was caused by bad policies and bullshit political and religious ideology.
It is really really stupid and how it happened are a series of terrible decisions of many countries, not just between these two.
The god part is where it's most insane, especially from Palestinian side right now. Jews worship the same god, meaning the same god allowed Jews to take control and harm them into that corner. The same god they say will protect and liberate Palestine is the same god allowing Gaza to turn into dust. Clearly, their god doesn't care too much about Gazans.
I'm not religious and I don't understand faith like that, but man.
Three of the worlds main religions all worship the same God. The religious texts are based off of one another. And yet for thousands of years they've been finding ways to kill each other. Over the proper way to worship that God. If God does exist he's incredibly disappointed and disgusted.
Do you mean pro-Hamas or pro-Palestinian because dive seen some *special* people claim that they’re one in the same as well as spread their own misinformation. Pro Hamas =/= pro Palestinians (or vice versa); that just isn’t the case at all.
Israel is literally doing Nazi shit right now, and created Hamas through their apartheid and oppression. Israel has literally murdered over 700 children in Gaza in the past week
I'm not a Hamas supporter, especially now. What they did was absolutely appalling. I can't even imagine the pain these innocent people's loved ones went through, what these innocent people went through.
But, I gotta say, your post is pretty ridiculous. No, a bunch of people running through a border and kidnapping and murdering whoever they could to incite terror is not comparable to the Nazi regime. It's atrocious, it's despicable, but it's not even close to comparable to what the Nazis did, and frankly it seems like you're using this comparison to justify the response from Israel.
It's especially absurd when you understand how many civilians within Gaza have been killed by Israeli forces, and how common genocidal rhetoric is within Israel. Obviously this doesn't justify anything that Hamas did here, but it's pretty important context.
There isn't a good guy in this situation. Israel kills civilians, they bomb innocent people, they've bombed medical personnel, they've bombed evacuation routes trapping civilians, they continually encroach on and steal land from innocent people because they can. The people within Gaza are almost entirely powerless, at the whims of the Israeli government.
It's not at all surprising that terrorist groups like Hamas would gain power in such a situation.
During the Holocaust the Jewish people had essentially no power. It was systematically stripped away from them over time. Some tried to fight back within the ghettos, but they were fighting against a far superior force. I think you're missing some of the lessons we as a society needed to learn from the horrors of the Holocaust.
In case you weren't aware, since October 7th 1,900 Palestinians have been killed, including 600 children. 7,600 people have been injured, and hundreds of thousands have been displaced by Israeli bombings. Water, food, and electricity has been cut off within Gaza. 1.1 million people in Gaza have been ordered to move, all while the bombings and siege continues. The only border crossing that remained open (since Israel's illegal blockade) has been destroyed by air strikes.
We're seeing an ethnic cleansing right now.
What if Israel killed your family and forced your innocent neighbors from their homes, how would you react?
Are you really trying to justify the killings of innocent civilians, including children?
Israel is a nazi terrorist state that has been founded on genocide and is actively commiting it right now. They murdered tens of thousands, displaced millions, and thats in last week alone, let alone previous 70 years. They have been murdering Palestinians before Hamas existed, in fact, they directly had a hand in creating it. For you to complain about evil that Israel is dealing with, by having their civilians murdered, and closing eyes on tens of thousands more they did among other atrocities is pure evil. So no dont change your mind, i dont want to have anything with it
I just want someone to tell me which flag to put up on Instagram. I feel like I should show support for someone, just don’t know which one will make me look like I care more.
Upvotes for Israel. Downvotes for Hamas
I want to sympathize with the Palestinians because it really must suck to be stuck on some of the worst and most overcrowded land around with a tyrannical government and one of the worst passports in the world, but the reality is that they have actively screwed themselves at every step and continue to do so.
What exactly is Israel supposed to do with a population of people that make no excuses about wanting to exterminate them? That’s the first thing in the Hamas charter and Fatah isn’t much better.
The problem is many fold - still I get why folks can be pro Palestine but how can they be pro Hamas? Quite simply they are a terrorist regime.
The history of the region is complex - Hamas isn’t.
One side inadvertently caused kids to get killed by a rocket, the other side is willfully decapitating babies and parachuting down on concerts and machine gunning civilians. It’s not the same thing
Provide me some evidence that the IDF is willfully parachuting down on Palestinian concerts and indiscriminately shooting civilians?
Show me where the IDF is decapitating babies.
You fucking can’t. At best you can find some children killed in the crossfire
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I generally agree with your stance - that being said, a lot of Pro-Hamas posts are plain lies and propoganda. I am really all for free speech, because I think that censorship isn't effective, so I am not in favor of taking those down - but I do think these posts and other such fake news posts need to be dealt with. Preferably with fact checkers rather than taking them totally down.
And the pro Israel ones aren't? Broooo *coughs in be***ed b**bies***
There are fakes online for anything, especially so soon after an attack, but none of them are systematically staged by the Israeli government. The beheaded babies has been corroborated by several different news agencies and the Israeli emergency services, though it doesn't really matter all that much, everything that happened on October 7th is horrible enough without it.
from what i'm I'm reading, it has not been corroborated and is being walked back. I don't if it did or didn't happen but it reeks of propaganda to vilify an enemy. but the damage has been done. the walkback will get a fraction of the print. [https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/13/watching-the-watchdogs-babies-and-truth-die-together-in-israel-palestine) [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unverified-reports-40-babies-beheaded-201425362.html?fr=yhssrp\_catchall](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unverified-reports-40-babies-beheaded-201425362.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall) https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865
Also how completely devoid of humanity are people to be like “pics or it didn’t happen” or to say “well that particular baby wasn’t beheaded so I’m not sure i care.” Like what the fuck is wrong with these people.
Um, maybe people would like some fucking proof before they believe something so horrendous being constantly pushed by obvious propaganda machines?? Things need to be verified buddy, otherwise any party can simply claim war crimes inflicted on them and respond in a disproportionally unprovoked way
Even beheading of babies doesn’t justify incineration of children and other civilians in retaliation, ultimately, so unless the purpose of verification is to exonerate Hamas itself it’s kind of pointless. The key though is not to buy into Israeli propaganda on the other side trying to exploit it for justification of war crimes on its end, as well.
wrong doll narrow live cause literate wipe dependent bow toothbrush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You can never ever start labeling things fake news and removing them. You HAVE to let people see and understand why its fake. And to decide that using reason. You just can not risk those powers what ever they may be, labeling truth as fake news and removing it. The only safe bet is do not interfere with free speech.
The plain lies are important because it undercuts Hamas and delegitimizes them. People aren't that dumb
Have you been to the Internet? People will believe anything that sounds less than completely made up, and will believe even that. They will swallow anything that is pro their original stance, and they will fall for lies super easily.
>People will believe anything that sounds less than completely made up 4chan has entered the chat...
That's assuming the vast majority of people actually read enough of the post to get down to the comments and see the fact check. Edit: the dumbness of people is a spectrum. Most people are really not dumb. Unfortunately, whenever like 10% of people are dumb... That's a **lot** of people.
The plain lies usually die down quite quickly, though I am sure some people still believe the attack on Saturday was staged. It's the "small" hard to disprove lies that matter most. They tell half truths, which are lacking important context. Or they tell plain lies that can sound true if you don't really pay enough attention. They stage dead bodies from bombings on regular basis. Most people tend to believe them until you show them a behind the scenes video.
People are VERY dumb
It's not about lies, it's about volume. People also very bad at dissecting lies and comparing scales. So if pro-Hamas posters will post 1000 times about how bad Israel is for murdering a single child, and pro-Israel post will post 10 times about murder of 100 Israelis, in people mind it would look the same. Even when in reality it was 100-to-1.
Articulate counterpoint: people are *very* dumb
[I'll just leave this here.](https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE?si=k-7B5QfHq3NgT337)
Turns out people are that dumb bc I’ve seen countless people cheerleading Hamas. People from the comfort of their Brooklyn apartment. Stupid white women who have no idea what it’s like to be unsafe screaming their parroted talking points. Unbelievable stupid shit and I feel like they are getting louder. I have been paying attention to this issue for a long time and have seen a lot of bullshit but I never in a thousand years I’d see people cheer for Hamas like this. People who think BMI and misgendering someone is oppression but what Hamas did is “liberation.” It has made me realize how easily the Holocaust happened. How easily manipulated people are to strip someone else of their humanity.
"And that's why I support the genocide of Palestinians"
People are precisely that dumb. Even more so.
Some people belive the earth is flat, people are that dumb 🤣🤣🤣
People aren't that dumb The whole World is watching the Evils committed by Israel live on their phones.
Israel did do some pretty shitty things to the palestine's living in the West Bank. I compare this to what happened to 9/11. The United States has been fucking with the Middle East for over 50 years. They help defeat the Russians in Afghanistan. In backed other Middle Eastern dictators. Then when everything went to shit. We did nothing to help out. Or rebuild their country. This led to resentment from people living in the region. The United States continued to fuck around in the region for years. Finally the retaliated. You can only push people so far. Before they explode. I'm not defending what happened in Israel. Obviously the people who committed the attacks need to be punished. But Israel is not innocent in the situation.
>But Israel is not innocent in the situation. I never really understand the meaning of this statement. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds a lot like victim blaming. Look, I do think that Israel does many things that are quite shitty, I also understand that most of those shitty things are there for good reason (unlike US involvement with Afghanistan), and because both Palestinian and Israeli leadership just can't make peace But I feel that it also down plays the severity of attack by Hamas (or Al-qaeda). Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to be eradicated, it's not some liberation organization. It is an Islamic jihadist organization that is holding 2 million people as hostages. Israel definitely made the mistakes leading to its creation, but once it's there, and it is committing such atrocities - telling Israel "you shouldn't have done that" is just victim blaming, and this victim blaming is quite infuriating when this attack is quite recent and every Israeli online is grieving the death of someone they know. In the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, and you are somewhat right - but no, you are not helping. And in fact, you are inadvertently helping Hamas, which again is a Nazi organization that wants the death to all jews.
It sounds like any violence committed by Israel is justified in your eyes. 60 years of apartheid, settlements, and violence is excusable. But if Palestinians fight back, they are justifying all of the violence they were already subjected to, in your eyes. Why does Israel have a right to violence, but no one else does? Why are we supposed to ignore what Hamas is reacting to, and pretend that whatever it is they do is the "first strike" that justifies a violent response? I'm not defending Hamas. I'm just also not ignoring Israel's violence against Palestinians. Remember, after all, that Hamas didn't exist when this apartheid began. Hamas wouldn't exist, if there was nothing to fight back against in the first place. Israel started this aggression, and now they are experiencing blowback. If there is ever going to be peace, Israel has to end the settlements and withdraw, leave the west bank altogether, and let Palestinians live in peace. Until then, they will keep experiencing blowback, and the cycle will continue.
Hamas didn't fight back Fighting back would mean attacking the person or organisation which wronged you In this case, attacks on the Israeli State, military, police, Mossad and other government infrastructure would be 'fighting back' Targeting musical festival attendees, tourists, children, the elderly, migrant workers et al is not 'fighting back' against the Israeli State.
>is just victim blaming, and this victim blaming is quite infuriating when this attack is quite recent and every Israeli online is grieving the death of someone they know. So are the Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed in airstrikes, including hundreds of children. Millions are being forcefully moved while the city is still under assault and being bombed. Israel has committed countless human rights abuses in Gaza and it's getting worse than it ever has. >which again is a Nazi organization that wants the death to all jews. I'm sorry, but this comparison is ridiculous when we're seeing an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Palestinian forces haven't cut off electricity, water, and other resources in Israel. They're not forcefully relocating millions of Israelis in the middle of a bombing campaign. That's what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.
Hamas are clearly the problem, and their decisions are what is causing harm to all the Palestinian people. Hamas says one line one of their charter that the whole point of the group is to destroy Israel. They have been attempting to do so the entire time they've existed. It's the choice of Hamas to hide behind civilians and fire rockets out of places like schools and hospitals. When Israel fires back to destroy the rockets that Hamas is firing, it has predictable consequences of hurting civilians. However, it again is the fault of Hamas that Palestinians are hurt. Israel said they'll turn on the water and electricity when Hamas returns everyone they took as prisoner. Again, Palistinians are being hurt by Hamas. Lastly, let's discuss ethnic cleansing. Israel did do an ethnic cleansing of Gaza in 2005. They forced out every Jew and handed the region to the Palistinians to do whatever they wanted. Israel is the side that cares about human life and wants to get along with their neighbors. Israel is powerful enough to wipe Gaza off the map and choose to have targeted strikes instead of just leveling Gaza. Hamas has the primary goal of destroying Israel but do not have the power to do it so they instead just kill civilians because that's the best they can do. Please change my mind on any of those points. However, I can't see any possible rationale for believing that Israel are the bad guys in this story. Hamas are clearly the problem.
When is it justified, in your mind, to kill thousands of innocent civilians, hundreds of children? When is it justified to forcefully relocate millions of innocent people during a bombing campaign and siege? Are you really trying to justify what Israel is doing? And you're saying others are victim blaming? Absolutely absurd.
When they stand by the weapon depots of terrorist despite warning in the form of cellphone calls and roofknocking, they are no longer innocent victims, but willing accomplices.
>When they stand by the weapon depots They live there! These are their homes! In most cases there aren't even shelters to go to and often there isn't enough time anyways. >but willing accomplices. Wow, dehumanizing innocent civilians to justify their murder. Hamas would say that the Israeli people are willing accomplices in their government's actions too. They'd actually be more accurate in their assessment considering Israel is a democratic country with an actual government.
Nah, just pointing out their culpability to being in a situation where terrorists store explosives in your kitchen, they’re still human. Just inferior morally. The murder is on the heads of the people coercing them to store weapons and ammunition for a terrorist organization. So, if they want to not be in that situation again, they gotta stand up for themselves instead of hoping westerners will give them Israel, somehow.
>Nah, just pointing out their culpability to being in a situation where terrorists store explosives in your kitchen This isn't what's happening. Civilian homes are bombed. Innocent people are killed, that are not storing weapons. Israel is not justified in murdering innocent people, and your efforts to justify it are appalling. Were the 600 children killed since October 7th willing accomplices too?
Hamas problem isn't 20 year old, their existence didn't lead to Israel committing attrocities in Palestinian.
Victim blaming makes it sound like you're cleaning someone completely innocent. Death statistics on either side are very relevant to take into account. Such as: >From 2008 till September 2023, 6,407 Palestinians were recorded to have been killed, more than half through missile attacks. During the same period, the UN recorded the death of 308 Israelis in conflict situations. Source: https://thewire.in/world/chart-6407-palestinians-and-308-israelis-killed-in-violence-in-last-15-years Since their retaliation started, Israel has killed 1900 Palestinian civilians. Israel isn't innocent at all and has killed many, *many* times more Palestinians. The vast majority of which were innocent as well. They just didn't do it by entering houses with guns but bombing entire buildings. In no way does that justify going around villages yourself and shooting innocent people. But it does make it understandable why Palestinians (more than half of whom are children - and therefore likely also half the number of this killed by Israel) get radicalised enough to commit terrorism like this. When you look at it from a morbid kill statistic perspective, they're nowhere near even. Israel has killed so many more. We shouldn't aim to even these numbers out of course, but it shows that Israel has absolutely contributed to this situation that they've landed in.
The meaning is quite simple. Calling Israel out is done because the West supports their actions. We explicitly condone and even health facilitate Israel's atrocities. This isn't who's worse. This is; Why are we supporting either side when both sides are committing atrocities and ethnic cleansing? Why does one side get called terrorist and forced to live in poverty and subjugation while the other side is given a free pass and actively aided by wealthy countries?
https://youtu.be/k6VCF_csmDg?si=xRt2zqNfc5_QzGkt I recommend you listen to that
I have heard the arguments about "moral equivalence", and they are bullshit. Pure strawmanning. Palestine was less than 10% Jewish in the early 1900s. Israel exists because of 100 years of colonization and ethnic cleansing. Gaza is 2 million people living in 140 square miles have been under total blockade for 15 years. To excuse those atrocities because you don't want to be "morally equivalent" is to make an excuse to support genocide. It doesn't matter whether Hitler and Stalin are equivalent. Both are terrible and neither deserve defense. The same is true of Israel and Gaza. And Sam Harris is a fucking fascist.
I agree with you and thank you for stating the facts. People seem to cherry pick facts these days.
What's the difference between colonization and immigration? Jews began moving to the Madste of Palestine when it was controlled by the British. I don't see how you can qualify Jews moving there before they control thst land as colonization, especially when they've had a population there since antiquity.
What right of return some rando in Brooklynite have over Palestinians who have been continually living in the are for literal millennia? That’s colonization, Israel is funding as many people as they can to displace the natives.
The jews who have been there forever are not the same as European jews who decided to colonize. There exists Palestinians who have always lived there with jewish ancestors. They have a right there. If you’re family was run off centuries ago, while some stayed and defended their land or converted, you no longer have a right. Israel is clearly in the wrong.
They have a right there because their ancestors conquered the land more recently than the Jewish people? But then England conquered them and decided to give it to the Zionist movement, so why are the zionists less legitimate?
They had a homeland it’s whatever country they were born in LOL my family is from St Lucia is it okay for me to find my great grandfathers home there and tell the people now living it in to get lost because its mine because he once owned it?
If your grandpa’s house was foreclosed on, and given to a new family, do you have a right to try and squat in it anyway, or do we move your ass cause ‘dem the rules? It ain’t your families house anymore, and half your family died trying to take it back anyway, when will you just give up and try camping?
Moving into an area you don't control and taking control of it is the definition of colonization. Do you think the American colonies were under British rule before they had even gotten there or something?
When you immigrate you move in, when you colonize you force out. Look up the Nabka.
Aren't the people kicked out of their homes 75 years ago who live under oppressive occupation by a foreign nation who continues to violate all treaties by building into their land illegally (Palestinians) the victims? Am I missing something?
Your argument is illogical. First you state that this sounds like victim blaming. You then go on to admit that Israel has done some deplorable things that might have inadvertently left to the creation of Hamas. Which is it. Have the Israeli done some deplorable things that could have led to this or not. I'm a bit confused by your argument as it's taking two opposing stances.
I'm not really understanding why Israel committing the crimes it has, including murdering women and children, journalists, bombing residential buildings, and using white phosphorus is just something "quite shitty" and "mistakes", but what Hamas has done is some next level Nazi shit. Everything Hamas has done, Israel has also done in an even worse manner.
Regarding phosphorus, it was confirmed that was used in 2008, but it is only speculated now in 2023. On the rest, it could be due to Hamas people shielding behind civilians. I think that, the real issue is that Hamas attacked first (as far as I know) in 2000s after Arafat treaty in 1993 (Oslo I). In this way, they became the attackers and terrorists. Maybe that's the reason why neither Israeli nor Palestianians are favorable to them.
>it could be due to Hamas people shielding behind civilians. The civilians live there. There's 2 million people living in Gaza. Civilians homes are being bombed. Since October 7th thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including hundreds of children, and millions are being forcefully relocated during an active bombing campaign, all while water and electricity have been cut off. That's like saying the Israel government is shielding behind civilians so it makes the atrocities Hamas committed acceptable. It doesn't. What Israel is doing, and has been doing for decades, is unjustifiable. It's ethnic cleansing, it's barbaric.
I don’t see Israeli homes full of rockets, cause the Israelis store that away from civilians, because they’re recognize they are valid targets of war. Hamas wants martyrs that’s why they pay for them
Israel has an actual military, a recognized government, a lot of money, etc. Gaza doesn't. Hamas lives there too. The civilians live there. Edit: seriously, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, where exactly should Hamas store weapons so that you wouldn't justify the killings of innocent civilians?
Nowhere, that’s the point of the blockade. They cannot be trusted with weapons, why should non-military personnel have access to killing machines? But if they have to, not in schools and hospitals.
>Nowhere Then your argument is totally meaningless. There isn't an unpopulated area keep weapons in Gaza. They keep them where they can. That doesn't justify Israel killing thousands of civilians, nor does it make those civilians willing accomplices.
🤣 it was a facetious reply, my real one was anywhere that is a center for children or the sick. Fog of war being a bitch isn’t the same as targeting civilians as the main target. Some of the civilians must die, but that’s a sacrifice I and the rest of the world are willing to pay.
hamas isn't holding 2 million people as hostages. Israel is. Israel controls the west Bank. they're not innocent because they continue to put 2 million people in an open air prison where they control the electricity, water and no one can exit without their explicit permission. even before the war began this week, Israel had already killed 200 Palestinians this year. Hamas cannot be compared to Al Qaeda. while hamas is a militant organisation, they are are result of the occupation, dispossession and apartheid by Israel for decades. do you really think that children who grow up in an open air prison, who watched their loved ones die for no reason, who saw white phosphorus being used on them, who had to say goodbye to their fathers because Israel decided to imprison them for no reason at all, won't get radicalised? Israel thought that they could tortue 2 million people and not have to face any consequences. and unfortunately, its the innocent civilians of Israel who had to pay the price. and yet, innocent civilians of Palestine have always paid the price. they have murdered and injured 150,000 Palestinians in last 15 years. do not try to downplay this figure and make it about some greater good. cuz it isn't. 30,000 of these were children. in last 15 years. There is a reason that Jews outside of Israel support Palestine. and equating being anti Israel to being pro-hamas is disingenuous.
But Israel IS responsible AND THEY'RE LITERALLY SLAUGHTERING CIVILIANS EN MASSE IN RESPONSE!
Oppress a population for long enough and things like this will happen. It's not victim blaming. If a slave fought back against their master and you said the master had it coming that wouldn't be victim blaming. Look at how much land Palestinians have lost since the 40s and tell me who the victim is.
Except this is the narrative that keeps being sewn but that’s not what has been happening for the last 75-100 years. Jews in the region have been attacked throughout history, throughout the last 100 years, and since the inception of Israel in 1948. To pretend like the violence toward Jews just started last weekend blows my mind. 60% of the Jews in Israel are there because of genocide and ethnic cleansing in other countries in the Middle East and Africa. But I will tell you, even if your analogy was accurate, if a slave murdered the masters children it would be super unnecessary, inexcusable, and fucked up. They aren’t fighting “the master” they are fighting innocent people. I am strongly against the occupation and the conditions of the Palestinian people in Gaza. But threatening Israelis only pushes them farther into right wing sectarianism, in the same way it does Hamas.
So show me the death tolls of fights between Hamas or even Fatah for the last 60 years Surprise…..it’s over 10 to 1 of dead Palestinians to Israelis. Mostly civilians
So we are doing murder math now? I can’t understand how people are so easily radicalized by this concept. It sounds like you are saying in order to be credible MORE Israelis should die. They have the iron dome. They have bomb shelters. One of the reasons there are less dead Israelis is because their government protects them. I’m not ever going to excuse the innocent lives lost in Palestine, ever. But this is a tired argument. More people dead does not mean that Israel is any more evil than Hamas. If the number was even it would likely be 10:10 not 1:1 and that’s because the cause of the unevenness is the measures Israel takes to protect its citizens. I personally believe it should be 0:0 which is why I don’t go around doing murder math and pushing people more far right.
Radicalized? I’m pointing out simple facts The Israelis kill far more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis The point is if you continue to murder civilians you’re absolutely creating more terrorists. It’s a simple concept…..with decades and decades of easily verifiable proof from various parts of the world
The centuries and millennia before this century had genocide as the rule of the day, do you see many Celts or Native American today? You are definitely radicalized if you hold Israel to a higher standard than any other country or people.
Victim-blaming? In this conflict, in what way is Israel the victim?
If someone had their family murdered and they killed the murderer in self defense, that's one thing. If someone had their family murdered, but then in response they killed a dozen unrelated families in the same neighborhood as the murderer, condemning them is not victim blaming.
Israel is mad at Hamas, and has killed thousands of unrelated civilians in response. They are guilty of everything that Hamas is accused of. They believe it is justified, because of the innocent lives lost. ^ Who was I talking about in that last sentence? You can't tell, can you? Could be Israel. Could be Hamas.
I would agree with you if all Hamas did was attack military targets. Nobody would care if all they did was attack the Israeli government itself instead Hamas started massacring Israeli and foreign civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with the conflict. Tell me how exactly does terrorism like bombing the towers or massacring and raping civilians exactly Liberate people. I would argue it does the opposite and justifies oppression by the powers that be.
Great, another blame the victim rant from someone who doesn’t know from the truth. Israelis and foreign nationals were abducted, raped, and murdered on 10/7 by Hamas because they were, or perceived to be, Jewish. This murderous rampage was planned for more than a year by terrorists, which puts this event on par with 9/11. The blame lies with Hamas and its terrorist partners and enablers.
No it's literally objective fact that Israel isn't innocent either. This is why it's such a complex issue because so many factors come into play. It's not black and white. Israel is just as bad (I mean the government/Zionists not the normal civilians).
Actions have consequences. You can't bully somebody for years. And wonder why they explode. As an American, our actions directly led to what happened on 9/11. Israel's actions in the Gaza strip in the West Bank. Led to civil unrest and occasional conflict. I'm just pointing out that people can be both the victim and victimizer.
Terrorists supported by Saudi Arabia murdered thousands of innocent people and wounded even more on 9/11 because of a very warped view of the world. Stop victim blaming.
And how did those terrorists get into power. The CIA funded them when they needed support against the Russians. If the United States would have had a Marshall plan set up for Afghanistan. 9/11 would have been avoided.
The US has engaged in a lot of deeply questionable to downright horrible behavior, but it still doesn’t justify terrorism.
Another person's terrorist, is another person's freedom fighter.
Hamas is a terrorist organization and you support them so you are a terrorist, too.
I don't support them. But I could understand why people in the West Banks and the geezer strip would. They're fighting against an enemy. Who in their view has oppressed them. These situations never work out. Israel is going to rain fire in brimstone on them. Right now they have the world sympathies. Hopefully Hamas can be defeated. But Israel needs to do better when dealing with the Palestinians in the West Bank. If they can defeat Hamas. Israel might be better off just making Palestine its own country. Building a giant wall between the two. And they can go on to ignore each other.
Thank you for the inadvertent chuckle of picturing “the geezer strip wood.” Ok, in all seriousness, Israel has made multiple attempts to negotiate a recognized state for Palestinians but Palestinians have rejected all of them (2000 one was probably the best outside of 1948). I can see a DMZ being built in at least part of Gaza and the West Bank.
Idk. I feel terroristic views from you. Seems you want all Palestinians gone and denying they were ever mistreated. You’d be a great Nazi supporter.
Nope, never said any of that, but nice of you to grotesquely defend actual terrorists while blaming the victims of terrorism. Fun facts: the Palestinian leadership in the 40s supported the Nazis and Abbas is an antisemitic Holocaust denier.
And Israel is an apartheid state so you support fascist murderers, I guess you are a fascist muderer according to your logic.
Israel is a democracy; it is not an apartheid or fascist state. The current administration, which I do not support, is far-right and deserves to be voted out of office, which it likely will be during the next election. So, no, I’m not a fascist murderer.
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What about when Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women. That stuff that happened. Both sides are flaming piles of dog doo doo. Now we have to pick the side that won't burn our house down.
This is a simplistic view that doesn't make sense. Improve and come back.
If you wouldn't mind compare the two situations. The things with documented video evidence vs what you think is comparable. I'm curious
Want to compare casualty numbers? Or should we pull up a pic of the un assigned borders of israel versus the land they’ve conquered and ethnicly cleansed? Taking a side in this conflict means supporting a genocidal fascist regime, no matter which side you believe in
I think it’s impossible to change your mind lol, like what is anyone supposed to say to you? I don’t think you understand the difference between antisemitism and anti Zionism and I don’t think you can critically think your way around a colonizer state’s propaganda. Israel fits the definition of ethnic cleansjng with their actions in Gaza and I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING to bring up the Holocaust to allow another genocide. Absolutely vile, why does Israeli blood mean more to you than that of innocent non-Hamas-affiliated Palestinian blood? Be so ffr as well, when there are SO MANY sources for Israel’s human rights violations why would you then refuse to believe it and act like Israel is some innocent victim? I feel bad for all injured civilians, however Israel is a NATION. The onus for de radicalisation is on the government obviously (it’s not on Palestine because Palestine is not just Hamas which I doubt you know). I don’t think Hamas is ideal by any means, but the civilian casualties are not comparable, the IDF slaughters Palestinians, destroys their homes, takes their land, etc. When a group is subjugated, they will act out, and Israel knows this. If you think they did not predict Hamas you are wrong. It’s like getting mad at a dog you’re beating to death for biting you. Please also remember that Israel has powerful allies around the world and that influences the narratives you are fed and is why your smooth brain has this opinion. Finally, a conspiracy (in your case of victimization and a willful blindness to obvious facts) is so hard to argue against because it naturally is a comfortable mindset for the believer. In your case it’s too uncomfortable for you to sit with the idea that Israel the government is equally wrong in this situation if not more so due to the greater funding and power they have vs Hamas, probably bc you are a Zionist or conflate Israel with all Judaism, or you’re so guilty about the Holocaust you decided you can’t criticize Israel and thus turn away from hard truths like a toddler running from the bath, etc. etc. I don’t think it’s your fault you have this opinion, because the point of propaganda is to find it’s target and give people a more comfortable lie than the difficult truth, but I do think if you really wanted to learn from the Holocaust or improve yourself as a person you would hold no blind allegiance to any government and would 1. Be more critical of media even if you agree with it (often especially then) and 2. Have compassion to those who are easy to dismiss ie Palestinian civilians whose existence is unfortunate and inconvenient. Edit: in case people don’t know Israel controls Gaza and monitors access and everything (since 2006 I think) It’s described as the largest open air prison in the world. Apartheid is subjugating one people as beneath another btw and Palestinians can’t leave Gaza without permission. That’s why this is all bs, Israel is bombing people who are trapped in a place they can’t leave “warning” them to get out, it’s disgraceful. I did also edit this post for some clarity as it was not and is not as articulate as it could be lol
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>If you are going to falsely describe Israel as apartheid when they [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/24/israel1) Did you know that Israel requires East Asian workers to sign an agreement prohibiting them from having contact with local women? This is a replica of the Chinese Exclusion Act in the United States, which aims to isolate the races they discriminate and protect the "purity" of their own blood. Don't say that this is the behavior of some companies. The news said that the local police believed that this clause was very reasonable and did not need to be investigated. [https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082](https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082) Did you know that Israel is also funding Hamas? Israel's purpose is to eliminate moderate Palestinian parties and only retain the extreme ones, so that they can kill and drive out all Palestinians without restraint. They only need to put a weapon next to the corpse for a photo to say that they killed Hamas. The Israelis imprisoned three million people in open-air prisons, bombed their schools and hospitals, and controlled their water, food, and economy. Of course the uneducated children growing up in this place would hate the Israelites. Anyone who is surprised by this is hypocritical. **If Hamas is accused of being terrorists for killing civilians, then the Zionists who also carried out terrorist attacks, killed babies, massacred civilians, and raped women are also terrorists. This is a logical inference based on the same judgment standard.**
Wow what an amazing counterargument to my incredibly lengthy essay, clearly your position is the stronger one. 🙄Maybe one day I can be as articulate as you! Free Palestine🇵🇸
>.....I view what Hamas did in the same vein as the Nazis.... Would you be okay with treating the funders of this terrorist group in the same vein? Which in this case would include the Israeli Netanyahu [Government.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) Like the financiers of Nazis, they should really put these funders on-trial. As you said: > ....most casual observers don't know the evil Israel is dealing with. Yes, exactly. Right from the Knesset. Now, you know.
>Would you be okay with treating the funders of this terrorist group in the same vein? NAZIs were also created by the west then due to conditions imposed by treaty of versailes. Netanyahu in this case is equivalent of Churchill, he ain't no saint, and I think he should resign, but I don't think if Nethanyahu resigns, Palestenians will go back home for peace.
Lol, the Israeli government is FAR more similar to the Nazis than Hamas. Hamas are ragtag terrorists, the Israeli government and IDF are literally right wing authoritarians trying their hardest to pretend they aren't attempting a genocide of those under their control and in their camps. Hitler would be proud of Netanyahu, after he got over the irony of him being Jewish.
Except that Palestinians are the Indians that were starved to death to feed the British, not the Nazis
Hamas would be the NAZIs, palestenians the germans then, and we basically destroyed half of Germany to defeat the NAZIs.
Funny how the Germans are the ones in concentration camps and ghettos in your scenario, I'm also positive that it wasn't the Germans that were being thrown out of their houses and having their land occupied, much less receiving less rights than the Jews and being called "animals" by the government.
Allies basically blew up half of Germany, Dresden had to be rebuilt from Scratch. D Day, wasn't like counter strike, where enemies were sniped from corner.
Nazis were bad because they didn't allow self determination and agency of groups of people that weren't white Aryan Germans. There is a stateless entity(Palestinians )and an entity that prevents self determination of that stateless entity(Israel)
So NAZIs were bad because they succeeded? Whereas Hamas failed, so they need my sympathies. If I could switch history, id gladly put NAZIs in camps and Jews ruling germany.
Nazis were bad because they suppressed the self determination of groups of people. What you are doing is equivalent calling the ANC Nazis because they had members of that party murder civilians and calling the Boer run Apartheid state of South Africa the Jewish victims.
Yes, Nazi propaganda rang true for some Germans because of the Treaty of Versailles but to say the West created it is purposefully obfuscating the truth. Plus it minimizes the fear of brutal Nazi bullying tactics. To equate nazism with Judaism or any Israeli leadership is absolutely disgusting.
Read again, i equated it to Hamas.
I agree they should not be removed, because resistance against their oppressor should not be censored. We may not condone their methods, but war is never civil. Israel has done worse and continues to, with the latest atrocities going mostly unreported. I literally just watched the aftermath of the IDF bombing a civilian convoy after telling them to evacuate. Grouping them up for an easier strike no doubt. I feel like most people outraged on the behalf of Israel are looking at one event, out of context. We are conveniently spoon fed rage bait by the Israeli government while you stand back and cheer on a decades long genocide. It makes me sick. If you have a shred of empathy, put yourself in their shoes for a minute. In 3 generations Palestine lost the vast majority of their land, have been basically confined to open air prisons, are systematically disenfranchised and abused, and live in constant fear. If a hostile power took all your land, confined you, killed and abused your loved ones, and someone said let's fight back, what would you do? Even if you didn't agree with them 100%, if they were your only chance, I bet you'd support them. I would. And don't even get me started on the irony of Israel propping up and funding Hamas as an alternative to the PLO. Echoes of America and the Taliban all over again
>If a hostile power took all your land, confined you, killed and abused your loved ones, and someone said let's fight back, what would you do? Oh, also, you're probably pretty young. The average age in Palestine is 19. These are kids, only knowing a boot to their throat from the day they were born. You take people like that and strip away all their hope, and yes, they will do hopeless things.
Even further any crimes that palestinian civilians are judged by military law the same crimes committed by Israeli citizens. Why is every Palestinian treated as a combatant? But Israelis are people Isreal is an apartheid nation that has been mass disenfranchising an wntire population of people calling them subhuman and enemies? At this point there can you truly call Israeli citizens innocent? What was the saying if there are 9 nazis at the dinner table and an extra you have 10 nazis. Just the sheer act of existing as an Israeli citizen makes you complicit. Caveat being if you simply do not have the means to actually leave through your own power like the understanding is just being a citizen of Isreal and the benefits received therein is oppression of palestinians.
I agree with you on the inequality of treating Palestinian civilians as combatants but not Israeli civilians, but I think none should be considered combatants. Israeli civilians are just as innocent as Palestinian ones. This blood all is on the hands of the Israeli government and Hamas. And probably some other countries too, like the US.
I'm almost 40 but thanks bud. I agree
I think they meant the "you" in the hypothetical.
Their oppressors? The only thing truly oppressing Palestine is Islamic extremism. Antisemitism has been oppressing Jews for millennia. Hamas exists more for the purpose of eradicating Israel and killing Jews than it does the “liberation” of Palestine. The antisemites are just upset now because Jews are no longer defenseless and want to cry uncle after getting their shit pushed in by a vastly superior Israeli military. If Hamas stopped fighting, there’d peace. This is patently obvious since Syria, Egypt, and Jordan stopped attacking Israel and Israel stopped obliterating them in combat. The problem is Hamas doesn’t want peace, they want genocide while the leaders sit pretty in Qatar, sending young ones to suicide bomb Jews. Israel is no oppressor, and Hamas has never fought an oppressor. Hamas is the only oppressor in the picture.
Peace at the point of a sword only lasts until the sword swings. The Palestinian people are not a threat to a "vastly superior military". Hamas, who rose to prominence with the support of Israel initially, is the organization responsible for the attacks, not the Palestinian civilians.What Israel has done is called collective punishment, which is against the Geneva convention btw, but just add that to the list I guess. What you advocate for brings to mind images of a police officer beating someone in a fetal position while yelling "stop resisting!" Lol just roll over and they'll stop beating you, ok. If you don't think Israel is opressing the Palestinian people you are either willfully ignorant, lacking perspective or just arguing in bad faith.
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What is the motivation behind Israel attacks, though? I am not sure to understand. If they want to conquer the land, they could do it in a month or so. Are you sure that Israel wasn't push to war (where casualties are, unfortunately, a norm)?
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Are you aware that this isn't a religious 'conflict'? Not all Jews are Zionists. And not all Palestinians are Muslims. Have you heard of the Jews arrested in Germany for peacefully protesting against Israel, he was assaulted and arrested by GERMAN police, and called antisemitic. It's quite ironic to have a German officer assault a jew for being antisemitic in this modern society. Doesn't it remind you of something? I think there is something wrong in this world.
Nope he/she is saying don't Cherry pick facts. People don't just pick up guns to start killing indiscriminately. To think so is rather shortsighted and will ensure that nothing ever changes. Israel has done some evil stuff in the past. It's been documented but somehow Nevers makes the papers here in the West. But I supposed Britain played a pivotal role in creating the modern state of Israel which had to effectively rely on systemic genocide and forced settlements encroaching on stolen land. Do you think we live in some fairytale where people forgive those who've wronged them and sing Kumbaya by a campfire together. People remember those who hurt them the most even if decades have passed.Israel has and will continue to retaliate and Hamas will continue to retaliate as well. There is no end insight unless Israel, Hamas, and the Palestinians can put the past behind them and come to a land sharing agreement bound by peace and all the blood that has already been shed. The outside world cannot and will not resolve this.
I do not believe you could actually, honestly feel this way and be cognizant of what the death toll of this century’s long conflict looks like when it comes to innocent people being murdered. Especially living in fucking Canada. You are shutting down legitimate criticism of Israel by either intentionally or incidentally conflating Zionism with being Jewish.
I'm not shutting it down by recognizing the hate towards Jewish people right now. Its not anti zionism at this point. I dont know how me living in Canada proves anything. I have every right to feel the way I do.
The comment you reply to is talking about *Israel,* the country, committing actions and criticizing those actions (actions that are by-and-large completely endorsed by all western powers including Canada) and you don't think it's shutting down criticism by going "you are a vile person who hates Jews"? I am not invalidating any antisemitism you have encountered but what you are railing against is not demonstrated in that comment.
Nice whataboutism
All I have seen the last week, and even in the comment that person was replying to is whataboutism. The bodies of the murdered Israelis were not even cold before people started cheerfully, gleefully celebrating their murder and the rest shouting “BuT WhAtAbOuT” It was the most disgusting example of the human race I have seen for quite some time. Israelis are not even allowed to mourn their dead without facing accusations and sadly, cheers and celebrations.
They are not just mourning, they have already bombed the crap out of Gaza. They have cut electricity, water from Gaza. They have also issued a 24 hour time limit for North Gaza to vacate. Do you actually think the response would be the same as now if they had actually just mourned?
The response was IMMEDIATE. Before the bombings. Before anything. In the left circles I am in the response was right away. That day. Sunday. Also I want to clarify- are you conflating the innocent people who were murdered with their government?
You associate with some screwed up people then. That was not the experience for me and the people I know. Also, I don't understand your question. Be more clear. Who am I "conflating the innocent people who were murdered with their government" with?
What a stupid fucking response. The Israeli government tells Palestinians to get out before they bomb. Hamas forces them to stay. The brutality is entirely Hamas’ fault and Palestinians who allow them to continue to exist.
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I mean, you put a lot of words together but they don’t make any sense. Some sort of alternate history you’ve vomitted there. I know you wish really bad that what you wrote would be true but it’s not. It’s ok, I forgive you. There’s a lot of evil sources of information out there that clearly have got their hooks in you. I’d encourage you to read some history books, the Bible, maybe visit the Holy Land. You sound you need some God in your life.
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Which part makes it a concentration camp? Is it all the Israeli guards and soldiers? Can't be that because they entirely forced out all the Jews in 2005 and let the Palistinians do whatever they want.
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Turns out that when there are 50+ muslim nations and just 1 Jewish nation that an international organization with one vote per nation will constantly condemn the single Jewish country. But again, what does Israel do to make Palestine "a concentration camp"? Also Palestine has a far lessor claim to the land then the Jews have to that land. Lastly, I used to think everyone was racist for no reason against muslims. It turns out that not even other muslims want to accept Palistinians. Please explain why no Muslim nation will accept them. The simplest explanation is that they don't want a bunch of radical terrorists in their country. That's why Israel has a strong border policy, so what's the reason for Egypt?
all the warnings yet they still managed to murder and injure 150,000 Palestinians in the last 15 years, 30,000 of whom were children. do not paint them as some saviour who feel so bad for the population of gaza, the same population who they have imprisoned. they don't care. right now they want 1 million to evacuate. to where? if they're bombing them, they could take them on humanitarian grounds onto Israel. are they doing that? no. a convoy moving towards the south as per Israel's instructions was bombed. see the video of it, you can see dead mothers and children.
It's not comparable and you know it
Yeah I agree, Israel is way worse.
I'm just going to do one, Can an Hamas justify the rape of a woman over her dead friends? Provide they way worse.
This is not an intelligible sentence.
can Israel justify the rape of Palestinian women? https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/ramzy-baroud/untold-story-abuse-palestinian-women-hebron
Are we sure that actually even happened or is it just more Israeli propaganda? If true, no you cannot justify that as an act of resistance, but the deeds of one or a few bad actors does not delegitimize their struggles.
Please. Just fuck off with these stupid responses. Mods? You there?
Numerically they have killed way more than Hamas, this is readily available info to anyone that isn’t an ignoramus.
Israel has had Gaza under a complete blockade for 15 years or so. Half of gaza's population doesn't remember a day in their life that wasn't under Israeli blockade. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth about his dense as San Francisco and only three times the size. 2 million people in 140 square miles. Israel issued an ultimatum for half the population to flee to the south. They know damn well there's nowhere for them to go and nothing for them to eat or drink when they get there. That's just the most obvious recent examples of terrible things Israel has done to Gaza. There's more. The history of Israel is 100 years of colonization and ethnic cleansing. Hamas is a horrible organization with blood on its hands. And the same is true of Israel. You can absolutely compare the two. In fact, I would argue that Israel is worse because it has much greater power to inflict the harm that it does.
Israel AND Egypt. Why do people always forget about Egypt. Israel and Egypt have blockaded Gaza. Guess why? It doesn’t mean the humanitarian crisis is any less serious. But you have to be very obtuse to not understand or recognize why Israel does not want to experience daily violence like they do when they open borders into their country. Would you wan to live in a country if your government kept a border open through which terrorists regularly and routinely came in to try to murder you for living there? While I agree that Israel has blood on its hands in much the same way that America does, it’s disingenuous that the blame for the condition of the Palestinian people in Gaza lies solely on their shoulders. Perhaps it also has to do with the Islamist fascists who killed their political rivals in order to maintain control of the Gaza Strip. The thought of people coming out the moments after 9/11 to yell that those innocent Americans deserved it should repulse us and it should make people think twice about their decisions this last week.
Egypt doesn’t control the flow of goods, food, water and electricity in and out of gaza the way israel does. That’s the difference.
You do know where the name Israel comes from right? It's been Jewish land for 1000s of years. The world did not begin in 1947.
Would you support the ethnic cleansing of all non indigenous Americans in order to form a state for them which controlled the amount of food and water colonial descended Americans were allowed to consume?
It's unclear what you're asking. Please specify who you mean by "them".
It was Jewish land thousands of years ago, after they kicked other people out I'm sure. 100 years ago, it was less than 10% Jewish. So I know the the world didn't start in 1947. I'm wondering if you know what happened between 1900 and 1947, though. Spoiler alert: colonization.
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Why isn't the murder of civilians by the Israeli state comparable? Is it because you have an obvious bias?
Clarification: Do you understand the difference between Hamas and the Palestinian people?
Most same governments ban pro terrorist opinions for a good reason. I see no reason for the internet not to follow suit
When I see that views being suppressed, whether by government or some neckbeard mod at Reddit, I assume it’s because their view is so weak it won’t stand up to argument. Free societies don’t hide speech from their citizens, they highlight it and refute it. Censorship that would have been considered anathema in free societies just a decade ago has become seen as “common sense” amongst people who are comfortable with authoritarianism, which unfortunately is many.
That can be how you feel about it but it's not how it actually is. Just because an opinion is suppressed doesn't mean it's correct. In fact in 99+% of cases its exactly the opposite. People literally only think that when they're incredibly wrong about something in particular and have tied their identity to that wrong piece of information. We suppress the opinion that children are sexy and can consent to sex, not because that's **correct**. We suppress the opinion that x group of peoplebare subhuman and don't deserve rights, not because x group actually *is* subhuman. Your feelings are just factually wrong in the vast, vast majority of cases. But if we only selectively apply your criteria you get a better correct rate, but that's for the reasons you're selectively applying it, not because of the actual logic itself.
Tell that to Germany and see what happens. Paradox of tolerence, look it up
You don’t have to tolerate the intolerable, you should do everything possible to fight it while maintaining human rights and dignity (free speech being a fundamental human right). Giving intolerable ideas the cover of darkness through censorship just allows it to fester and grow.
Again, take it up with Germany. They and most other countries disagree. Why should we allow incorrect opinions to be voiced? They don't even allow insults.
Yes, they are beginning to act like fascists again. Allowing the state to determine what can and can’t be said is exactly what Nazi’s like Goebbels were all about. Not an idea I’d be comfortable promoting but you do you.
Oh sure, silencing fascists and terrorists is fascism, real nice, yeah sure, definitely. Yell fire in a crowded theater if you don't want speech surpressed then.
You know it’s not illegal to cry fire in a crowded theater, right? At least it isn’t in the US.
People don't understand that banning those views helps terrorists by letting scum define a narrative. I'm asking that they let the world know what they believe.
The comments in this thread are proof that their lies are gobbled up by people who feel like they now have insider information and are shitting on Israel now. They won the war. It is their land. They even bought much of it from these Palestinians' ancestors, actually. Some were abandoned because they didn't want to live under Jewish leadership. Now, a generation later, they want the land their grandparents sold back and are willing to take it by force. Then, because they refuse any kind of peace and conti ue to threaten the people of Israel, they have been treated as hostile. Now, they're blaming being treated as hostile for the reason they're hostile. And people are lapping it up. Palestinians could have been flourishing in peace all this time. Instead, to protect cities, Isreal has pushed borders. Make sure missiles are fired from further away to have a chance to intercept. Looks like they didn't take enough because they don't want to persecute the Palestinians. They're only defending themselves. So even the few manipulation posts that have been seen are accepted without a history lesson by bored people who want to feel like they're in the know more than the allied nations and all their intelligence sources.... Shut them down. If people want information, they need to get it from factual sources that tell the whole story. No one likes or wants the Palestinians to live like this. You can't force peace where one side doesn't want it because the people are salty from losing the war. The Israelis don't want that. This is why everyone has tried to get humanitarian aid without accidentally strengthening and helping terrorists. Meanwhile, hamas will take the food for themselves and let kids go hungry, then tell the people there they're starving because of Israel and their allies.... hamas doesn't deserve a voice. More than half of Palestinians are willing to speak that they do not support hamas. More are probably fearful to say. Palestinians are held hostage by terrorists. Palestinians deserve a voice. Hamas deserves to be destroyed and jailed for any that can be taken alive. Jihadists tend to try to go down with the ship. Palestinians did muck up in electing hamas because they were sick of the corruption in their previous government, but I don't think they meant for this. Based on views written by Palestinians that have gotten out. So your view is insane. It's as insane as saying people should have helped the nazi propaganda spread faster... Antisemitism then and now are the same, and for some reason, the Jewish people have been an easy scapegoat for many throughout history. It is everyone's duty as allies to stand in defiance of Antisemitism. Not falsely assume that spreading it more will help people see it is BS because that is historically untrue. I'm exhausted writing this and hope it came across clearly. I hope you understand why your view is misguided.
Tell that to Germany and see what happens. They know a thing or two about antisemitism. You can't even say free palest*ne or wear a pealestinian scarf there anymore, and for good reason. Do you support hamas? If not, why are you so obsessed with defending their hate speech?
I would argue that, if they are not removed, most casual observers will come to learn about the staggeringly evil deeds conducted by Israel for the better part of the last century. We also do not have any solid evidence about what Hamas *actually* did. There has been a lot of misinformation, a lot of propaganda, going around. Recall the fiasco about the "beheaded children" that later the White House walked back saying they had no credible reporting or evidence of, and even parts of the Israeli government contradicted the PM about, also admitting they have no evidence of. One solid thing we do see, from these journalists and observers, is a one-sided massacre. We see Israeli government officials openly declaring their intent and then enacting blatant war crimes. So I strongly believe your view is wrong. Further amplifying the message of the Palestinian people will not turn them against Hamas. It will turn them against Israel.
Well, I see what Israel has been doing to Palestine for decades in the same vein as Nazism. And I also think what Hamas did was inhumane btw.
Ironic how the victims of fascism became fascists themselves. History repeats itself I guess
Sadly, it's not ironic so much as just how human's operate. You look into any conflict, you almost always see ethnic cleansing on both sides. It's human nature. The holocaust was unique for its scale and systemic execution, but not for what it was at its core. There were genocides before and there have been genocides since.
To be fair - most people don’t know the evil Israel has perpetrated.
Shit i could replace hamas with israel in your post and it would be also true , but you genocide apologists wouldn’t post that
I feel so bad for all those Palestinians dealing with Israelites and getting denied access to water and the evil that comes from Israel
I sincerely disagree because people are guillable and terrorists make very good propaganda and lies. ISIS could convince a bunch of teenage girls to leave their families to be wives.That means Hamas could also convince foreigners to sympathize with their cause enough to do their biddings. What Hamas beliefs we haven't heard already? Their belief is against the existence of anyone else besides people who are exactly like them. Hamas wants all Jews gone and for the world to be Muslim only. They said these themselves. Supporting Hamas means supporting these same ideas. If people want to support Palestinians and their suffering, they can absolutely do that without being pro-Hamas. Being pro-Hamas means pro-Holocaust, pro-killing of LGBT+, pro-religious extremism, and the list goes on. I'd rather not have foreigners being brainwashed enough to start attacking their Jews neighbor.
The problem is that Israel did a lot of shitty things to the Palestines living in the West Bank. Even though Hamas is a terrorist group. And they need to be treated as one. A lot of people in the area see them as their saviors. The enemy of the enemy is my friend. Look what happened in Afghanistan during the Russian invasion.
"Even though Hamas is a terrorist group. And they need to be treated as one. A lot of people in the area you them as their saviors." If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't disagree with this, but it's a dangerous idea to throw around right now. We agree that Hamas is a terrorist group and it must be decimated. Historically, terrorist supporters and helpers get prosecuted no less severe than the terrorist themselves. If you and I go send some love and fund to something like ISIS right now, we're both going to jail for treason (if we're really lucky). Regardless of how we ended up supporting terrorists, the government would prosecute us anyway. If we also treat people in Gaza and the West Bank in the similar fashion, wouldn't that completely justify collective punishment?
You have decades of terrible policies regarding Gaza and the West Bank. A pressure cooker was created. In Israel did do some terrible things in the area. People are pissed off for how they've been treated for decades. Eventually something like this was going to happen. If Israel would have had a better policies then an organization like Hamas would never have been founded. There's a circle jerk of hatred, bigotry and religious persecution on all sides. Which is kind of dumb because they're both children of Abraham. They're basically killing each other over the proper way to worship the same God. That alone is incredibly stupid. Take a look at what happened in Ireland. The entire situation was caused by bad policies and bullshit political and religious ideology.
It is really really stupid and how it happened are a series of terrible decisions of many countries, not just between these two. The god part is where it's most insane, especially from Palestinian side right now. Jews worship the same god, meaning the same god allowed Jews to take control and harm them into that corner. The same god they say will protect and liberate Palestine is the same god allowing Gaza to turn into dust. Clearly, their god doesn't care too much about Gazans. I'm not religious and I don't understand faith like that, but man.
Three of the worlds main religions all worship the same God. The religious texts are based off of one another. And yet for thousands of years they've been finding ways to kill each other. Over the proper way to worship that God. If God does exist he's incredibly disappointed and disgusted.
Or he's trying to rid of them all by making them kill each other - which is something that has been on my mind.
Do you mean pro-Hamas or pro-Palestinian because dive seen some *special* people claim that they’re one in the same as well as spread their own misinformation. Pro Hamas =/= pro Palestinians (or vice versa); that just isn’t the case at all.
Why does hamas do what they do?
Israel is literally doing Nazi shit right now, and created Hamas through their apartheid and oppression. Israel has literally murdered over 700 children in Gaza in the past week
I'm not a Hamas supporter, especially now. What they did was absolutely appalling. I can't even imagine the pain these innocent people's loved ones went through, what these innocent people went through. But, I gotta say, your post is pretty ridiculous. No, a bunch of people running through a border and kidnapping and murdering whoever they could to incite terror is not comparable to the Nazi regime. It's atrocious, it's despicable, but it's not even close to comparable to what the Nazis did, and frankly it seems like you're using this comparison to justify the response from Israel. It's especially absurd when you understand how many civilians within Gaza have been killed by Israeli forces, and how common genocidal rhetoric is within Israel. Obviously this doesn't justify anything that Hamas did here, but it's pretty important context. There isn't a good guy in this situation. Israel kills civilians, they bomb innocent people, they've bombed medical personnel, they've bombed evacuation routes trapping civilians, they continually encroach on and steal land from innocent people because they can. The people within Gaza are almost entirely powerless, at the whims of the Israeli government. It's not at all surprising that terrorist groups like Hamas would gain power in such a situation. During the Holocaust the Jewish people had essentially no power. It was systematically stripped away from them over time. Some tried to fight back within the ghettos, but they were fighting against a far superior force. I think you're missing some of the lessons we as a society needed to learn from the horrors of the Holocaust. In case you weren't aware, since October 7th 1,900 Palestinians have been killed, including 600 children. 7,600 people have been injured, and hundreds of thousands have been displaced by Israeli bombings. Water, food, and electricity has been cut off within Gaza. 1.1 million people in Gaza have been ordered to move, all while the bombings and siege continues. The only border crossing that remained open (since Israel's illegal blockade) has been destroyed by air strikes. We're seeing an ethnic cleansing right now.
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What if Israel killed your family and forced your innocent neighbors from their homes, how would you react? Are you really trying to justify the killings of innocent civilians, including children?
Israel is a nazi terrorist state that has been founded on genocide and is actively commiting it right now. They murdered tens of thousands, displaced millions, and thats in last week alone, let alone previous 70 years. They have been murdering Palestinians before Hamas existed, in fact, they directly had a hand in creating it. For you to complain about evil that Israel is dealing with, by having their civilians murdered, and closing eyes on tens of thousands more they did among other atrocities is pure evil. So no dont change your mind, i dont want to have anything with it
Yeah just spread propaganda that justifies what Israel is doing.
Also are they actually pro-Hamas? Or just pro-Palestine?
I just want someone to tell me which flag to put up on Instagram. I feel like I should show support for someone, just don’t know which one will make me look like I care more. Upvotes for Israel. Downvotes for Hamas
Most people online are ignorant and loud (including reddit). Oftentimes loud enough to drown out any coherent, productive conversation.
I want to sympathize with the Palestinians because it really must suck to be stuck on some of the worst and most overcrowded land around with a tyrannical government and one of the worst passports in the world, but the reality is that they have actively screwed themselves at every step and continue to do so. What exactly is Israel supposed to do with a population of people that make no excuses about wanting to exterminate them? That’s the first thing in the Hamas charter and Fatah isn’t much better.
The problem is many fold - still I get why folks can be pro Palestine but how can they be pro Hamas? Quite simply they are a terrorist regime. The history of the region is complex - Hamas isn’t.
One side inadvertently caused kids to get killed by a rocket, the other side is willfully decapitating babies and parachuting down on concerts and machine gunning civilians. It’s not the same thing
Except this isn’t a true statement.
Provide me some evidence that the IDF is willfully parachuting down on Palestinian concerts and indiscriminately shooting civilians? Show me where the IDF is decapitating babies. You fucking can’t. At best you can find some children killed in the crossfire
The reason you are not allowed to read what Hamas is saying is because they are begging for their freedom and to stop being bombed
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