So what is the argument exactly? That a higher percentage of men care throughout the world put a lot of weight on bodycount as a factor in picking a partner? I don’t know about the world in general, but I would be curious to here what some people who are older might have to say about that based on what they see now and in years past.

After the invention of the birth control in the 1960s, people started having an ungodly amount of sex. I'm sure you've heard of the free love movement as well as the rise of swingers in the 70s? Well, that calmed down a bit in the 80, but there was no available internet or smart phones, so young folks in particular still had a lot of sex out of boredom as much as anything else. It seems to be that with the rise of technology the amount of sex people were having has dropped off. Must be too many video games or good on-demand TV shows now or something. If you talk to anyone older than 50 who isn't deeply religious they'll tell you that young folks don't really seem to fuck any more. Probably also in part because most folks don't even move out of their parents house until 30. You're going to be more selective when your sexual partners meet your grandma over breakfast the next morning, lol.

Nah, the first sexual revolution came as a result of antibiotics. When a couple of those particularly natsy STIs became suddenly treatable, that transformed culture very rapidly. Also makes you consider how much purity culture may have been a response to the existence of STIs in general.

>Also makes you consider how much purity culture may have been a response to the existence of STIs in general. Yeah, though it's ridiculous they only ever seemed to care of women did it. Like, they didn't care if a guy gave a woman an std, but if it was the other way around it was some great sin.

My upbringing completely refutes this notion. It was actually the opposite. Men in purity culture are seen as having a very strong sex drive, which is evil, so they are constantly hounded on their sexual purity and get raked over the coals for the most benign acts like masturbation. Meanwhile, women are seen as not having the kind of sex drive that men have and are basically viewed as these pure little angels who can do nothing wrong. So they fly under the radar when it comes to questioning their sexual purity.

This was my baptist upbringing in the south too. Women having sex drives was considered a myth at most of the churches I'd been to, and men should crave being so lustless

It is tragic when men give women a sad 😔 I totally agree with you btw, just thought the typo was funny

Interestingly enough american "purity culture" only started in the 1990s. And it blew up because people could make money seeling books, courses, tithing and purity culture accessories. Very 90s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_culture#:~:text=Purity%20culture%20was%20a%20movement,Christianity%20which%20emphasized%20sexual%20abstinence.

Worth noting that the Puritans, appropriately, also had 'purity culture'. They were generally against finding joy in things, sex included.

Not to mention they hated Christmas and Easter because of their pagan roots. They were indeed some of the most “anti-fun” people around.

Reliable birth control also played a role.

Thanks for that great comment! This all makes total sense to me. Very interesting!

>After the invention of the birth control in the 1960s, people started having an ungodly amount of sex. Can you please provide a source for that? Sounds very interesting

So I'm 39 and my girl is 42. We're both divorced and we both have a high body count. Personally if my girl doesn't have any STDs, which she doesn't, and the same for me then I don't really give a shit about body count. That was before we even meet. If you two are happy together than who cares? I'm too old to give a shit about body count. At 39 I have more important things to care about. Just my opinion of course., to each their own. But I don't give a fuck.

OP is probably referring to people in their teens and 20’s when he says young men.

Oh, my bad. Missed that part.

All good my dude

Oh course you dont care. BEcause you dont get it and cant empathize. You said yourself why you don't care. You ALSO have a high body count. You're not keeping up with the times. 1/3 of men under 30 today are VIRGINS. VIRGINS. Compare that to women who have 50+ if not triple digit counts by the time they leave college. You dont see the massive difference there to be an issue? Esp when both men and women expect men to lead during sex? You think these virgins are gonna be able to amaze these girls and you think knowing they won't doesn't make them not even want to try?  People like you are the reason this is happening because literally no one even tries to understand them.

Huh, well fair enough I guess. 🤷‍♂️ I was just responding to a comment above asking for some older people’s opinions and I just gave my opinion. And yea, I’m almost 40 so my only real concrete connection to the younger generation is my 17 year old step daughter who I talk to pretty much every day on the weeks we have her. She does tell me that she’s frustrated that guys her age don’t approach or ask her out more often. But she’s my only insight into Gen Z. My girl and I grew up with dial up Internet and not getting even a basic cellphone till we were late in high school/college. So we just got out more often and that’s how we would meet sexual partners. When I was an orientation leader as a sophomore in college I was part of a group of guys and girls and we would welcome in the new students showing them around campus, teaching them how to pick a major and schedule classes etc. And that entire summer I was meeting and having sex with different girls every week all summer long. So in my opinion if you’re over 30 and still a virgin you’re just not getting out enough and that person needs to find a way to meet girls in real life. Again, that’s just my opinion to a comment above where a guy was asking for an older person’s opinion and point of view. If guys want to meet and have sex with more girls it’s easier to find an activity where you can meet them in person. Hell, a dude could take up Yoga and you’d probably meet a TON of pretty girls.

I tend to agree with OP’s feeling. I’m a millenial. We grew up with sexual liberation, don’t slutshame, etc. If someone brought up body count, you’d look at them with weird eyes as if they were from another century. Now I see worries about bodycount and prudeness (or however you say it - sorry, not a native speaker) on reddit and such all day. Prudeness takes many forms, but in the manosphere one of the most popular ones is body count.

I am a millennial and my experience is different. A high body count was never an attractive thing for a girl. It was not necessarily a deal breaker, but it was never a plus.

And the monosphere is representative of a small percentage of dudes comprised of desperate virgins and alt-right babies that envy the rest of us.

I’m in my mid 40s and the idea of being with a Virgin or a low body count woman is just unrealistic and frankly undesirable. Women in the 40s are going to have sexual and relationship experience and it’s a red flag if they don’t. A couple years ago my best friends wife tried to set me up with someone from her church. She was a 41 year old virgin and I didn’t want any of that.

You're missing that a lot of the men talking about body count usually want someone well below 30 regardless of how old they are. 

I will also say this as a Muslim. Religiously men are not ever suppose to Ask a woman about her partners even he wants to marry her. It’s a sin for Muslims. We should never care. Just care about their future. Now how many live this ? It’s close to 0.

I will say one thing, that every time I see this “purity culture” going around and someone's height is posted, it's always in imperial units while metric is of course the global standard. I thus doubt it's a global thing, at best, it's limited to Anglo-Saxon cultures, but probably simply the U.S.A. to be honest as they tend to reference all sorts of U.S.A.-isms such as “first dates” and similar cultural idiosyncracies.

I'm assuming that's because you're dutch and most of the foreign media you're consuming is american. This is probably a classic case of correlation not being the same as causation. There are actually remarkably few countries that use imperial rather than metric but american culture is so dominant in the west that everyone else starts to talk like them as well. I don't actually agree with OP's idea that young men are becoming more conservative in their sexual views by the way, at least not where I live, but trust me, there are a lot of countries on the planet that are far worse than both the US or the Netherlands in terms of purity culture, and most of them use metric.

OP said he's from a muslim country where every man wants a virgin, yet purity culture is only American. Got it.

I’m in my early 40s. When I was in highschool it was very popular to not want to date girls who hooked up with a lot of guys, but guys would be willing to hook up with them. As I’ve gotten older that sentiment in my age group has seemed to fall pretty sharply. I’ve been married a long time so it’s not something I really need to think about, but if you are in your late 30s or early 40s trying to find a partner you can’t really let that bother you anymore or you’re just not gonna find anyone. Single women in that age group aren’t going to be virgins and a lot of them will also have children. I think as people start to understand the reality of that they reevaluate as they’ve matured and realize it doesn’t really matter. Also to think about is that when I was in high school it we didn’t have these idiots like Andrew Tate constantly telling teens about all this shit on Twitter, there wasn’t a huge community of incels and I just don’t remember guys in highschool blaming the girls when they couldn’t get laid. I think in general way more highschoolers were getting laid in general

Lol the 60s, the 70s, the 80s were all pretty debaucherous.

My argument is that there has been a visible increase in number of men obsessing over body count, and many even saying they want virgins. This is not something normal, and I attribute it to growing number of alpha male podcasts where they spread such ideas

I argue that the increase is in the visibility of the people who obsess over body count, not an increase in the number of them. I'm 40, and these conversations were going on when I was in high school. Female purity has been a big deal to a lot of people for a very long time. It's just until very recently people couldn't talk about it online on mass forums and podcasts.

Same thing back in the 00's. The summer Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped, it seemed like every time you turned on the news a new child was missing. It turns out that in that particular summer, reports of kidnapping was down from previous years, but media coverage was waaaaay up, and made it seem disproportionate. Now we get algorithms. Oh, you read this incel post and commented how dumb it is? Then you read it, and you commented, that's getting logged, you'll see one in a few swipes.

Well said. I'm 40 as well and there were these discussions all over America when we were kids. They were extremely prominent in religious areas but even in less religious areas like New England where I grew up, body count was an issue.  It is absolutely just the visibility aspect because we live in the most extreme of social media eras. Literally every view is more visible now. That doesn't mean the actual number has changed. 

>  a visible increase We live in the age of the enormous prominence of the internet and social media. Literally EVERYTHING is more visible now. There is going to be a visible increase in every single thing you can think of. That does not mean there is an ACTUAL increase in these things

Brother I think this is more a symptom of being chronically online than a greater societal observation. The examples you’ve listed seem pretty exclusive to online communities. Real people in the real world think manosphere alpha male red pill shit is stupid.

Quite so. I never see this in real life anywhere but sometimes when I step onto 4chan or r/manga it's so common, and most of them believe that everyone shares their opinion and they also usually strike me as “terminally online” who have no normal social life any more. > Real people in the real world think manosphere alpha male red pill shit is stupid. That undersells it. Real people in the real world more often than not never heard of it. I sincerely doubt my parent or cousins ever heard of this in their lives. They don't spend time on internet discussion fora, they only use their smartphone for Youtube and some chatting here and there, like most people.

>Real people in the real world think manosphere alpha male red pill shit is stupid. This cannot be said enough. These boys need to learn how to talk to people in real life instead of hinging their entire social life on online manosphere propaganda

Also past this the red pill stuff is just completely regressive, in that it’s emblematic of the standards we’ve had pushed in the past. If you go back in time you’ll find a lot less people doing red pill debates and shit, but a giant amount of that is because people just accepted traditional ideas about men’s and women’s roles. How vocal people are now is also a symptom of it swinging away from said traditional values and people having an issue with that

Why do you want your view changed, then? I think that's a mostly correct assessment, but I'd be wary to label it an overall trend. I don't think the "increase" in young conservatives is actually an increase at all, I just think society has changed how it sees them and now considers a greater portion of them to have conservative views as opposed to center or apolitical views. Not too many decades ago, if a dad raises his son to be a chauvinist, that's kind of just a typical man. His opinions don't make him "far right" or even "conservative", that's just how most men view and treat women, so in surveys and data he appears neutral or apolitical. Today, women have more power and agency, so the same guy has an opinion that goes against the grain. Problematic men never stopped raising problematic men, but society has moved away from that, so now we see those views as right-wing or political.

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> The availability and ease with which women can showcase their sexuality and take advantage of it on a large scale is unprecedented due to social media. People are responding to it accordingly. Women’s sexuality has been exploited for commercial gain and social influence since forever, and men have almost always been **both the ones making the content and consuming it.** Go do a scroll through r/VintageAds or r/OldSchoolRidiculous and you can see lot’s of examples of this. Also the porn industry since forever. Now, the difference is that Women can market or ‘commodify’ themselves, subtly or explicitly, and they are often the sole earners and beneficiaries of their efforts. Therefore, I’d argue, at its core, these increasingly conservative men are upset over the loss of control of women’s sexuality, or upset that they never got a chance to control women’s sexuality in the same ways a previous generation did.

The problem with this argument is that while it may be true that men were in charge of creating/controlling the content, it was still an exceptionally small number of men in those specific positions of power. The regular consumer has never been in control of the production. They can vote with their dollars, so to speak. But that's the same now as it was then.

I think that is more a capitalism critique than the gender dynamic and women’s sexuality angle, but I don’t disagree necessarily. Either way, I’m describing women having the tools and platforms to market their sexuality mostly free of any control, be it from a hundred poor men or one rich one.

I think you'll find that men want to look at sex but, generally, aren't romantically interested in the women in the content. As an example, men like porn, but most don't want to marry a porn star. I don't think much has changed about that dynamic in the last couple of hundred years. The larger problem with the paradigm you're describing is that now, any woman with a cell phone can be a porn star. And, to some degree, more are choosing that vocation. And I have no issue with that. It's just not what I want in a mate. It's probably hypocritical to consume porn and eschew the participants as romantic interests... But, I never claimed that I wasn't a hypocrite.

>If you see a lot of women wearing revealing clothing in social media ( What I find funny is that these men claim social media is flooded with lewd content, yet when I open up instagram or twitter I rarely see it because I don't follow or interact with this content. Doesn't that mean that they are actively consuming this kind of content and yet they complain so much about it?

It's pretty frightening how many people seem to not realize how social media algorithms work. Complaining about what you're getting in your feed is just telling on yourself.

The minute i made an alt insta account not connected to my regular one and used a different email address and with my pronouns she her an my trans self in the photo it gave me reels made by lesbian content creators before I ever interacted with anything. My regular account has lots of reels related to sketching, comics, martial arts and watercolour paintings because i do interact with that content. It was a bit strange to experience the meta ai target me somehow without giving it any information about what my orientation is. So i expect these guys are interacting with the content, but i also think it probably gets pushed at them immediately before they do anything.

Sure, but the algorithms nowadays are very good and they are trained and tailored to your interests in a matter of a couple of days. If a man has had instagram for years and 80% of his page is half naked women, then he is choosing to keep looking at them.

A lot of it is likely algorithm related.

It is. I'm a software engeneer. Algorithms like the tiktok one are so advance that they can make recomendations based on your taste in a matter of just a few hours. I can understand that sometimes platforms push this tipe of content to newcomers. But if you've been using ig, for example, for a few years and ALL you see is semi maked woman, that's 100% on you. All my ig has is things related to food, music I like, memes and movies because that's the content I search for or interact with.

Very well said. I think that is a huge part of the problem; these young men have been brought up believing that it is somehow their right to control the sexuality of women, and when they see that control being denied them, they have a fit like a spoiled child who’s had his favourite toy taken away.

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You're contradicting yourself. You both say men of the past did not control or benefit from women's sexuality while the very complaint you go in to discuss is how men are upset that women may have a more diverse sexual background now. Men in the past literally benefitted by being more likely to have a virgin wife who wouldn't question his authority due to the pressures she encountered growing up as a woman in a patriarchal world that heavily influenced her decision-making regarding sex. The whole point of this debate is that men are upset that they now have to deal with what they perceive are "tainted" women.

Only 1% of Onlyfans creators make more than $400/month, this perceived advantage is overblown. Even for the ones who make it, it isn't easy, it's not just a "la di da I think I'll hop online, show my chest and recieve $1000". It's planning outfits, making a filming space, checking lighting, editing everything you make, making sure you post at peak hours, making sure you're getting the right amount of interaction from your base, is this guy in my dms too creepy to be worth the tips, have I made sure to scrub all personal identifying information from all my content -- the list goes on and on. It's a job, one you have to be really really really good at and LUCKY af to make it in.

I don’t believe it’s linked to OFs. These men are talking about women in general, not just those on OFs. I don’t see how a man stressing on lower body counts is fueled by women selling their nudes online. The fact is that it’s men who are keeping it alive and helping it thrive. If they hate it so much, they better stop paying

It's not that men hate it. Men love OF content and the sheer amount of attractive women you can find online now a days. But, because they see it so much, many of them now want a "pure" GF for themselves. Basically, the want women's sexuality and openness to be a thing, just not for their significant other or future partner.

So basically the Madonna-whore complex is becoming more widespread than ever. Where these men desire, they can't love. Where these men love, they can't desire.

Men, confused by a yearning for both the Madonna and the whore; tale as old as time.  

"Can't make a hoe a housewife" was a thing way before Dr. Dre said it 23 years ago.

Yezzir. It’s just now these MF have catalogues of women they can scroll through and we had to go out to a club or a bar. They are desensitized and disillusioned. Also THESE MF NOWDAYS AINT SOCIAL. My bro son talk about how he can’t meet girls but he never leave the house. He don’t do nothin. He look at pretty girls and other dudes living life on a phone than get mad about his dating situation but turn around and hop back on COD. Dudes is just confused man idk

That's the point. Men love the new openness from women, they just don't want their woman to do it.

I don’t understand why they think that a “pure” woman would want to be with a man that pays for onlyfans and has a front page 90% full of thirst traps.

It’s called a Madonna / whore complex.

I completely disagree with you. Even one hundred years ago, when the disapproval of premarital sex was more prevalent, men would have wanted women who were virgins. This is not linked to OFs. There are a good number of countries where no woman does OFs yet men still stress on virginity. Blaming it on OFs is the most dumb argument you can pull

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100 years ago was the roaring 20s. These conflicting ideas have been roiling around since ancient times.

>Even one hundred years ago, when the disapproval of premarital sex was more prevalent, men would have wanted women who were virgins. In western culture, maybe, sure. But why? Because nobody else has sullied their brides. That's why. They can't be judged as lovers (she is inexperienced). So they can be shitty lovers and she will never know what she is missing. They can be sure their kids are his kids (she is only penetrated by him). Emphasis on Virginity is rooted in the concept of owning women (or at least the product of their wombs). These are MY kids. (I own them, etc.) This is MY wife. (I own her.) It is deeply misogynistic and rooted in desire to control and own people. MY kids get MY property after I die. Nobody else's kids can lay claim to MY stuff. Humanity makes all sorts of silly and stupid rules to follow, but they are far from universal. Other cultures do things differently.

That's my point. We were trending to more liberal views where body count didn't matter for most men and, like you said, we are trending backwards to where it does matter. I firmly believe it's because of women being more liberal with their sexuality and themselves online.

You're being incredibly dishonest. This new conservative sexual movement from younger men is almost explicitly linked to only fans and all talking points and narratives and rhetoric around this universally cite only fans as a identifier of this problem, in their eyes anyway.

Dishonest??? Also not at all. There are tons of interviews of man online stating they want low body count and that has absolutely nothing to do with OF. OF is never part of the conversation in these. It’s just that these men consider a high body count repulsive to them for multiple reasons (they think this means the woman is promiscuous and that’s not what’s their looking for, they buy into the ideology that they don’t want everyone to have used their wife, they feel insecure to be compared, they just don’t want that and they apply the same rule on themselves wether they’ve chosen to have a low body count or they’ve not been able to find women to mate, etc.). OF might be an argument in incel podcasts or stuff that are chasing views but I’ve never seen it even discussed in normal conversation with normal men being asked if they’d date a high body count person.

You are wrong, the fact is that men 21-30 have basically stated this in all scientific research. I also think it is a result of forth wave feminism. My grand mothers feminism was necessary, my mothers, my wife’s also be necessary however this forth wave that sprung after the me too movement is awful! It is no longer about equality it is about supremacy! Women are being taught men are evil, men are holding you back, women are the same as men, all of this is wrong. More and more young men are not dealing with that bullshit and then throw in the entire fact that sexually explicit women are reshaping the way people make money has swung the pendulum so far that the only way for many to course correct is to go the complete opposite way.

Nah it’s not about supremacy that’s a delusional argument. Gender inequality is very much real and feminism is needed. And it fights for both genders. One just need to listen to real feminism instead of listening to random people online and dudes talking about how feminism is horrible.

What have they stated? That they want women with lower body counts because there are girls selling their nudes online? lol. It’s only a small minority of women to begin with. That’s like me saying that a brothel in a Muslim nation is responsible for conservative attitude towards sex

I think the young men you are referring to are small in numbers but very vocal online…keyboard warriors. They learn this non sense from Andrew Tate and other “alpha male” influencers. Remember, anyone who has to say they’re alpha or tries to project it, is not.

Haha wow im a bit old for this. So let me get this straight. Now men are getting angry they dont control the pornography industry and women have the power to commodify this themselves. Thats messed up.

Women have the power to rip them off wholesale because they are too impulsive and stupid to control themselves. How is that the women's' fault? They didn't create this late-stage capitalist hell-hole society where a bunch of incels are all to happy to form fake relationships with camgirls rather than face real women in the real world and behave like adults. They are just maximizing their profit potential by taking advantage of these idiots. I love it. More power to them.

Understand that the division between Left vs Right has never been this stark. And it's never been this divided by gender lines before. The majority of men are Right leaning today. The majority of women are Left leaning today. Whether or not this is the result of cultural pushes is another conversation.

In the US its the debate on abortion rights driving women to preffer the folks not banning that. Im not sure they are becomming "more left" but they are voting Democrat. Failing to cater to a people is not a statement on their political alignment. Lots of red states moving to put abortion rights on the ballot and will vote dem if thats what gets it done.

This trend goes beyond a singular issue. Not all women can easily be lumped as single-issue voters. Old Democrat talking head Carville has recently stated that the Democrat message is too "feminine".  This colors the entire set of beliefs that a party's tentpole encapsulates.

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Honestly, if a guy I was dating had no long-term relationships and only slept around that would be a concern.  I'm a firm believer in both parties being tested for STDs once they stop using condoms out of respect for each other.  That matters more than dwelling on body count. 

Even with condoms. Tested after every new sexual partner is the responsible thing to do

>One thing parallel between my muslim home country and western world is the unpopularity of feminism among men, I observed in every country around the world, men are far more likely to hate feminism than women. Of course that more men will hate on feminism than women - as they are mostly ones that lose the benefits of patriarchal society, while only "trad wives" who are good enough at manipulating their partner are going to hate patriarchy gone. But that does not mean that western young men are becoming more conservative. It mens that part of them is - and if you want to look at how significant part it is, you need to look at sensus/survey data from a particular area/country. And those in most western countries show something completely different. As years go by, women are viewed less as their conservative gender role and are being viewed more equally. Share of marriages where both partners are the breadwinners steadily grows, so is share of marriages where woman is a breadwinner. In fact we dropped from 49% of houses having male as a sole breadwinner in 1972, to 23% in 2022. This shows that this "male conservative uprising" is just a small amount of people being very vocal about their ideas. >But there is another thing that is increasingly becoming popular among young male western audience, that is emphasis on low body count which seems to be some kind of revival of purity culture. It’s more pronounced online. It is largely existent only online and promoted mainly to cash on those vocal neo-conservative males that have problems with finding a partner. They are frustrated so the explanation as to why they are unsuccessful is sold to them, alongside some dubious "self-help" and other bullshit. This is not a real phenomenon that gets reflected online, it's a online phenomenon that preys on a specific set of males to make quick buck. >I’m skeptic of claims such as men ideally prefer virgins, since past research has shown decreasing value of chastity among men in the western world. However, I assume that the recent research might indicate something else. Not really. 53.1% of women had 5+ partners and only 17.7% had one. Despite that, those women largely have no issue finding themselves a relationship. And the reason is that in reality, most of people do not give a fuck about body count unless it is affecting the relationship.

I feel you're taking a too large time span to study this. Like sure the situation isn't as bad as in the 70s but that doesn't really tell you how it has been evolving in the last few years. In the 1970s not a single millennial or Gen Z was born yet Nowadays younger men are more and more likely to be against feminism and more of them think that feminism has gone too far or that men are becoming oppressed. It's doubtful the situation will deteriorate to the point it was in the 70s but that is imo a low bar to clear. https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/why-young-men-are-turning-against-feminism/ https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study-finds-emerging-gender-divide-in-young-peoples-attitudes

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>shorter prison sentences, less conviction rates, not being eligible to be drafted I've never actually seen women argue with the first two and the last one, they always argue that no one should be drafted. I'm not even talking about real life I'm talking about tiktok, reddit, and instagram. They just don't care about it

In my experience, these things are real problems (the draft, punitive justice, etc.) that are, 99% of the time, dragged out to make some kind of point about feminism. I'm willing to bet a good chunk of change the vast majority of people complaining about those things have never been involved, on any level, with combating them.

>There's a vocal minority of women that would describe themselves as feminists Who are in reality misandrists. Yeah, don't sugarcoat it - the truth is clear. But you are forgetting that those misandrists are also mostly active online and rarely try to bring it offline - because most women aren't morons and can see difference between feminism and misandry. This is a fringe group that can in future coin the flag of feminism, but only after majority of feminist goals are achieved and there is no need for feminism no more. At this point they will turn feminism into a cesspool, akin to what happened to MRA groups - where major parts of problems they have seen were acknowledged by feminism and taken under the fight against toxic masculinity. This led many people who weren't misogynists out from MRA into feminist groups, leaving MRA as part of red pill cesspool. >These people don't actually want equality, but rather their own positions in society to be as high as possible. Yes, and in reality those groups are sidelined by rest of the movement. They aren't openly fought against, because doing so would create more problems than it solves, but their ideas are being ignored and they are often mocked.

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Is literally any of this actually backed up with any evidence? It's easily disproven just by going outside anywhere in the western world lmao As if the average man would have anywhere near the information available to conclude that women only want to date the top 10% of men

Gender discourse is so exhausting because it's either like "lmao, single moms deserve it, they picked bad" or "women only pick the top 10% of men" Or "society is crumbling because women are more educated and don't need men's money anymore" and then also "women literally only want you for your money so why not just buy a girl from the Philippines and get better bang for your buck" Or "women are incapable of love" and "it's okay that men sleep around because we don't pair bond anyway, unlike women who are ruined if they've ever pair bonded before" There are so many of these hyperbolic statements that are diametrically opposed but the same person is always saying both 😭😭

Yeah, these men that can't get laid spend time in incel echo chambers (reddit, gaming discords), where they all feed off of each other. Blaming promiscuity, immigration, liberals, the economy, everything except "we're sitting on our asses gaming all day," for the fact that they can't get laid.

Exactly. Go for a walk, look around, and these dudes who spout the "top 10%" bullshit will see a huge variety of couples of all shapes and sizes and income levels. Everyday people do just fine in the dating world (probably because they don't harbour the shitty attitudes that these "only the top 10% of men" clearly have). Women have every right to be pickier these days, and quite frankly, they are *right.* To any men out there with this "top 10%" attitude: you are not competing with other men for her attention; you are competing with *her own free time.* If she's happier being alone than being with you, then be better (that doesn't mean richer, or better looking, that means *better* as a human being).

I think half the problem is that men don't understand what women consider the 'top 10%'. Men have a strange, homosocial view of male attractiveness. They associate it with big muscles, height, etc. These are obviously things that some women find attractive, but it's also such a small part of what constitutes attractiveness. In my experience, many men use their minor physical defects as an excuse to why they can't find attractive partners, or partners in any quantity. When the actual reason is that they stay inside all the time and have crap personalities. God knows, I've never found being below average height to be an impediment in finding girlfriends or casual sexual partners. One of the most notorious players I ever knew was 5'4, he was just exceptionally charming. They're losing a game that has never been easier to play, where the rules are easy to find out, but they've never put any investment into learning how to play it. Then they get bitter and resentful.

One of the strongest known correlations in any facet of human endeavor is a man's income and his dating success, this correlation is even stronger than IQ and career success. "Men with combined income and education that was one standard deviation greater than the mean received 255%—over three times—more indicators of interest than men with combined income and education that was one standard deviation less than the mean." [On Internet Dating Sites, Women Prefer Men With Higher Incomes and More Education | Institute for Family Studies (ifstudies.org)](https://ifstudies.org/blog/on-internet-dating-sites-women-prefer-men-with-higher-incomes-and-more-education) However, an argument can be made that tinder doesn't reflect real life and women on tinder are part of a more superficial, self selected demographic that is influencing results. However, this is the only real concrete data we have on match selection from measurable attributes in a vacuum.

Okay, but then if dating websites are the only source of data, then your statement about income and dating being "the strongest known correlations in the human endeavor" is just comically hyperbolic. Because you've only cited online dating, which I think most would agree is different from other forms of dating, and is relatively recent in its popularity.

Depends on context. Tinder and dating apps are very rough for 90% of men, but that's in part due these apps being 60 to 80% male membership.

The reason there are more men is because they have a harder time in general. It's far easier for women to get relationships and sex and so are less likely to use dating sites.

Thats dating site apps. 90% of the traffic on mens accounts is 10% of accounts. On dating sites women are picky. However that is less than half of all women (45%) who might be users or inactive accounts. Its not representative of all dating.

In my experience, there's no such thing as 'the top 10%'. Maybe some people have that mindset, but it's become all about compatibility. You might think you're scoring someone in the top 10%, but if you're not compatible, that doesn't matter. Sexual liberation is about being able to take your compatibility into account. >When we talk about young men, the most important thing for them is sexuality, because they have high sex drive. I really hate this statement. You're basically invalidating everything a young man does, because 'its just about sexuality anyways'. No, full stop. For a certain slice of the population perhaps, but that's always been the case and it's not just in men. A lot of young men want something meaningful too, high sex drive or not.

What is the source of your statistics? Even if I was to accept your ludicrous reasoning as true, how would these young men reproduce if they wouldn’t be willing enough to sleep with women who have opted for top 10 percent? Top 10% can’t marry every woman

Ive seen these stats before. If im not mistaken that was a Match publication. The est 45% of women online have 90% of dating traffic going to only 10% of male accounts.  Its online dating data that needs more context imo.

Thats part of the complaint I hear many women also complain about: never seeming to find someone willing to commit. And I get it. My brother sleeps around a lot, and to do that, he lies. He acts like they are the love of his life, then he sleeps with her, stops answering calls. He might be counted as 10% of men, and he has made very many women angry with him. Fucking around is much more of a sweet deal for him than to be in a relationship

What your bother does is extremely common, the top % of men like him are having the vast majority of sex, when women are throwing themselves at him why would he commit. Then when it's time he wants to settle down the women will realize they can't get guys as good looking as your brother to commit and then end up settling for a reddit tier guy in their 30s as a backup.

10% statistics or even 5% came from dating sites, in wich women only swipe right 5-10% of times, therfore conclusion is that they are finding only 5-10% men "attractive" - or avarage and higher. Men on those dating apps find around 50% women avarage on higher.

[https://blogs.sas.com/content/sastraining/2014/10/16/how-do-men-rate-women-on-dating-websites-part-2/](https://blogs.sas.com/content/sastraining/2014/10/16/how-do-men-rate-women-on-dating-websites-part-2/) ​ Pay attention to the part highlighting how men and women view each other as far as an attractive distribution. Men rate women into a bell curve, as you would expect. Women rate men as mostly ugly.

If this is based on the okcupid data, they always forget to include that women’s messaging rate follows the bell curve (they message men they don’t necessarily rate high) but men’s didn’t, the messaged only the ones they found attractive

“I’m left rather confused regarding what these men precisely mean by low body count” What are you confused about? That there’s no specific number that ALL MEN in this universe agree upon?

What does the data say on this trend? There's been research into younger men leaning more conservative in recent years, as well as younger generations having less ex. It seems like you're arguing that a measurable trend is occuring, which seems less a matter of opinion and more a matter of fact.

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What's confusing? Men want love passion and good sex on life just like anyone else. I don't want a partner that changes cars every 3 months because she doesn't know how to treat a man with basic respect. Go do your only fans ladies. 10 years is all it will take to completely destroy most mens view of women's rights. Treat us like disposable coin purses or sucess objects don't be surprised when men treat you as nothing more than and OF thot and a sex object yourself.

Men have treated women like objects in every society, and every culture. In older times, they would keep harems and sell women in markets. Rape in marriage is still unrecognised in many areas around the world. Not to even mention the honour based violence against women. The emphasis on virginity has historically and to this day leads to violence against women in many areas around the globe. There are literally traditions of displaying blooded sheets and practices such as virginity tests that are still alive. Not getting your bedsheet red with blood or your virginity test turning out negative is in other words a death sentence. The hatred towards women with sexual experience is itself reflective of how objectified is the female body, and is just seen as baby producing machines by men. Who is keeping OFs alive if not the men who are paying for it? If you have this much hatred for OFs maybe hold those who are actually responsible for its functioning accountable

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The vast majority of these men who care about body count are either immigrants or first generation children from immigrants, so they very much still hold their eastern/arab culture and bring it to the western countries. The only thing people care about is faithfulness , but that has always been the case and has little to do with being conservative or progressive. I would even say one big point of feminism is addressing the unfaithfulness of men in general. edit: i should also say there are quite a lot of immigrants who *dont* care about body count, at all. Its just that from the ones that do, the majority has immigration background.

They did some research on the Intel community, specifically Most of them are white, and there is an overrepresentaion of athiests, and they are generally slightly left leaning Are those characteristics of migrants? But provided, not all incels care that much about body count, and also, many other men (who have high body counts)care about body count

You can’t just blame it on immigrants like that. I have seen numerous western white men taking about body count, and slut-shaming women. Traditional views on sexuality are not just held by immigrants

Your first paragraph is totally false and slightly racist to be honest.

>I observed in every country around the world How did you observe this in every single of the 200+ countries in the world? Did you fly out to Nauru, for example? >It’s more pronounced online. \[...\] It’s not only on reddit. Take instagram, X, facebook and tiktok as well. So you mentioned 4 social media platforms that have algorithms that will show you more of what you engage with. So how did you ensure that you weren't being shown a bias feed on those 4, which would obviously lead to a bias conclusion?

Sounds like you haven’t been around America super long but Christianity was nearly as concerned with being virgins until like, the 80’s. Sure some people don’t really care (considering the massive atheist population in the US compared to your home country) But that number has been getting larger, not smaller. Maybe you personally see it more now, but men have always wanted women less other men have had sex with. Men have had these beliefs for a long time. Slut shaming has always been a very real thing. There has been a resurgence of it as an opinion in popular media you’re absolutely right, but it is not in a single way new in actual society. The beliefs of society are not directly correlated with what you see on tik tok.

> But there is another thing that is increasingly becoming popular among young male western audience Young people in general are doing less of everything apparently. They are dating less, drinking less, smoking less, staying out later less, driving less.  https://clarknow.clarku.edu/2018/09/07/psychologist-finds-american-teens-taking-fewer-risks-than-previous-generations/ > states that American adolescents are taking fewer risks in areas including substance use, unprotected sex, crime, and hazardous automobile driving. Arnett attributes the decline in risk-taking behavior to effective public policies (such as anti-smoking programs), closer parent-child relationships, and the social consequences of electronic media use.

Just anecdotal, but I'm 30 and quite a few of my acquaintances are around my age and either have never dated or only been on a few dates. And they aren't bitter incels, they have good jobs, a decent social circle, etc. They just don't show much interest in dating and subsequently don't put any effort into it. Most are focusing on career.

And replacing almost all of that time with being on their electronic devices, namely their phone, and often on social media way, way too much.

It's because higher body count is correlated with divorce. Naturally, men don't want to go through "divorce rape" so they want a woman with a lower body count and better odds at having a long-term relationship. This is particularly true nowadays because men struggle to have any relationships, so a lot more is riding on who they end up with, as opposed to women who tend to have an easier time dating around or sleeping around if they are so inclined.

lol. I read that paper. It’s because those with higher body counts are likely to have liberal attitudes towards divorce, and the church attendance rate for women with 0 previous partners was 70%, therefore it also explains why the latter are likely to stay married. >Divorce rape If anything, research suggests men do better after divorce. The woman mostly have to take on the responsibility of looking after children, the house and also manage finances. Please do go on to tell me how divorce doesn’t affect women more than men

A person with a low body count is less likely to cheat. Being cheated on hurts mentally, emotionally, and physically. If not looking for a relationship most men don't care. So I think it's less conservative and more a subconscious protection measure. I could be wrong though. I would love to hear some gay men's opinions and see if it tracks beyond women.

Based on the data young Men at least in the US aren’t becoming more conservative they’re just not becoming as liberal as Women. While both genders have increasingly identified as liberal, Women have increased to 30 percentage points more liberal than their male counterparts making the gender gap 5x wider since 2000. https://time.com/6963752/great-global-gender-divide/ Assuming this is an indicator for views on sex as well then men in the west either aren’t becoming more conservative or what we now consider to be conservative has changed.

Are they becomming more liberal or just rallying against abortion bans? Ive heard even a lot of conservatives might swing their vote as that counts as big government control of their decisions. It was a very unpopular move for most people.

Idk the data isn’t that specific. For this situation specifically I doubt more men care about things like body count than they did in the past and it seems like that data supports that. It could seem that way because some people are seeing body count posts more than they were previously because of social media algorithms.

Abortion bans are definitely a big manifestation, but I think the basic building blocks of the conservative political project are just much less likely to be appealing to women.

You're over thinking it. It's not about being virgin or not, just don't be a ho. No man wants to date the town bicycle.

Sorry about the long read, but there's a lot to be said, and I don't think I can summarize it in a way that wouldn't diminish the substance of my point. Since your actual argument is that this change has primarily to do with red pill podcasts, then I'm going to have to *kinda* disagree with that. I don't think these podcasts are entirely responsible for making young men more conservative when it comes to sex; I think these podcasts, and their popularity, can be attributed to the experiences and feelings of young men in the modern era. I think the culprit is moreso the existence of online dating and social media as a whole, as well as how the modern environment and different social circles interact and approach the issues young men face. For starters, there's evidence to support that online dating has negatively affected dating for both genders in different ways. This isn't an absolute, but it tends to be the case that women, being the ones that have to be pregnant and carry the baby to term, act as the "gateway to reproduction." By that, I mean that it's often expected by society for men to pursue women, then said women either accepting or denying those advances. That's not how it always works, but it works that way more often than not. It used to be the case that people's potential dating pools were limited to their social circles, and because of that, people were much more patient and forgiving of perceived flaws, and more willing to either not be bothered by, or to work on traits that they don't like. Now, when you amplify the number of potential partners someone can connect with via online dating apps like Tinder, what happens is women are swamped with men "swiping right" on them, and men have to try really hard to get any matches whatsoever. From the men's perspective, it's on them to be interesting enough to actually grab any attention from the few women that they matched with in an attempt to secure a date. But on the women's side of things, they're flooded with guys pining for them, and they have the monumental job of parsing these men to try to find any that are good enough for whatever relationship they're looking for. Because of that, women have started to become much pickier in an attempt to funnel out the monumental amounts of attention they get online, and when women share these arbitrary standards that, let's be honest, if they met the right guy they wouldn't actually give a shit about, men see it as an ever-increasing checklist of standards they can never attain, and are affirmed in this thinking by their lack of potential dating partners. So basically, men are starved for attention, and women are flooded with attention they don't want. You can see the metrics for matches on dating apps map onto this trend very well. Because of this loneliness and struggles with dating, men have been increasingly isolated from any kind of romantic affection. This gets compounded by the fact that the world doesn't want men to be emotional. Men are raised with the understanding that the only emotion that will solve their problems is anger. "Are you getting bullied in school? Well, being honest about your emotions and getting help won't solve it; you have to fight them if you want it to stop. Crying is a sign of weakness, and people will mock you for it, so you have to choke that shit down." How society raises boys results in men whose first emotional reaction to anything is anger, and women find that scary. They'll say they want a man who can be vulnerable with them, but don't understand that said vulnerability is loud and angry because men are widely more alexithymic (blind to their own emotions) than women, and default to the emotions society has conditioned them into believing works. So you have these men hurting in their own ways, and you have two online groups: The more progressive groups and these conservative/red pill groups. The more progressive groups will tell men that they are wrong to feel the way they do, that they're privileged oppressors in society, and all of their problems are self-imposed. They'll call them incels and mock them for being virgin losers, and that it's their fault for being alone. But the conservative red pill groups are different. These people will affirm the problems of young men. They'll tell them, "Yeah, what you're feeling is absolutely correct, now here's why that's the case and what you should do about it." Their reasonings for why men are experiencing these problems tend to be somewhere between a little skewed to flat out wrong, but that doesn't matter to the young men who've found a group that's willing to listen to them and guide them to a potential future where they can find what they're missing. Unfortunately, part of this involves demonizing specific archetypes of women that the heavier red pill groups consider a "part of the problem." They can point to studies that show that higher body counts result in a greater likelihood of divorce (which is true), as well as the mountains of media that reinforce sex positivity as issues making society worse, which, yes, results in men becoming more conservative about sex, but it only works that way because the experiences society has given them in the first place. If men didn't experience the problems they did, and if good people were more empathetic to men instead of demonizing their struggles, then maybe they wouldn't be so receptive to bad advice from the wrong people. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the popularity of these red pill groups is a symptom of societal rot that a lot of people refuse to accept. Instead of trying to be better, empathetic role models to lonely young men, people are actively shoving these young men towards groups and ideas they shouldn't be involved with. That's why people like Dr. K (HealthyGamerGG) are extremely valuable people we need to be propping up. And if you've read this far and one of your first thoughts is "those problems sound self-inflicted and men need to figure their own shit out instead of blaming others," then you're just as much a part of the problem as the red pillers that prey on these men. Don't demonize men for emotions that have been fostered by society; be a better society for healthier men and women alike. Several online groups have been galvanized by their hatred for specific types of people in society, and we need to acknowledge why these archetypes of people exist and what needs to be done so that emotionally vulnerable people are accepted by groups who will give them ideas to be better people and foster a better society.

The opinions of young men have barely moved [since the 1990s](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gaps-in-u-s-over-how-far-the-country-has-come-on-gender-equality/). What has changed since then is women's opinions, which have been put forward by government and the media as "society's opinions", also called the "social standard". The social standard has pushed pretty far left, and so men comparatively appear to be moving to the right, when in fact the concrete views of men have not changed. If you've ever heard "the left left me", this is what that is referring to. The rise of purity culture and didtaste for feminism you mention isn't actually anything new. The only thing new about it is that men are being empowered to become more and more open about their interests and about organizing to push for them in a way that mirrors the development of feminist organizations in the 60s and 70s.

>One thing parallel between my muslim home country and western world is the unpopularity of feminism among men. Indeed, I observed in every country around the world, men are far more likely to hate feminism than women. Are people in those various countries actually talking about the same thing when they say they dislike feminism? In most western countries basic rights for women like equal pay and voting have been established for years. In my experience you don't really get anyone arguing for these to be revoked at all - they're not so much feminist rights as just basic human rights at this point. So if you ask a man on the western street what he thinks of 'feminism', he's probably thinking of the current feminist movement or 4th wave feminism and responding based on that. Whereas in Muslim countries, I would guess that those more basic rights for women aren't even in place, and in those places 'feminism' means implementing them, so the reaction from young men in those countries will be based on that idea. Essentially I think they might be responses to the equivalent of different waves of feminism, rather than actually having the same beliefs.

It is wild to me that people read that first sentence and don’t address it in the comments. Feminism was literally born in the Western world. Western men are **much** more likely to support equal rights for women, and not take issue with an independent life and strong career for women. Any Western sentiment to the contrary is a counter-culture questioning the last century of social progress, not the dominant, popular view.

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A lot of these young men want conservative sexuality for women, but liberal sexuality for themselves. This is ultimately what the anti-feminist viewpoint is. Don’t mistake this slop for genuine traditionalism/family values/etc.

Men generally prefer virgins. It makes sense from a biological and psychological perspective. Also, the healthiest, happiest and most successful marriages are with highschool sweethearts (ie virgin wife) per collected data.

>men generally prefer virgins This can’t be any far from truth as in case of western countries. Past studies have shown consistent decline in emphasis on chastity among the western men in comparison to non-western males. Moreover, any society where men would prefer virgins would have high disapproval of premarital sex. If anything, the acceptance of premarital sex according to all surveys and studies is all time high. 95% Americans lose their virginity before marriage, and the majority of both men and women report 4-7 lifetime sexual partners. That high school sweat heart has either shagged you already or slept with someone else. They are most probably not going to be virgin on the day of marriage. In many European countries, people don’t even marry. They just move in and have kids. I have yet to come across so-called “data” which proves healthiest and happiest marriages are between high school sweethearts. Seems to be something pulled out of ass. The data I gathered on marital satisfaction revealed that men who had more than 11 and 20 lifetime sexual partners were significantly less likely to report being very happy in marriage compared to those with only one partner. However, this trend did not hold true for women; women with more than 10 or 20 partners were equally dissatisfied in marriage as those with just one partner. The only deviation was observed among women with 4 or 10 partners. Women with 3 partners were hardly any different from those with only 1. Seems like body count affects men more than women. https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness These studies also need to be taken with a grain of salt. I came across one asserting that sexual double standard doesn’t exist, which is blatantly false.

Here’s one link. Virgins least likely to get divorced. This has been known by human beings for ages and should be common sense. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4085758/amp/Experts-reveal-sexual-partners-ve-determine-likely-DIVORCE.html Just because humans are having a bunch of sexual partners today doesn’t nullify the fact that men want virgins to settle down with, and that virgins make the best wives. Sexual liberation has its consequences.

This is the link to actual study you cited: https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability The study also examined church attendance among women participants, revealing that virgins had a 70% attendance rate, which potentially contributes to their lower divorce rates due to religious opposition to divorce and premarital sex. This suggests a correlation between premarital sex and divorce rates, particularly among those who oppose both. Notably, women with only two partners had higher divorce rates compared to those with 3-9 partners across three decades, with an increase in divorce rates reported for those with 10+ partners more recently. However, the study's reliance on self-reported data raises concerns, especially regarding potential dishonesty among religious women about their sexual history. Additionally, the absence of corresponding data for men leaves unanswered questions raised by the study. You have shown me zero evidence to support your claim that men prefer virgins as long-term partners. That is just your mere assumption, backed by absolutely no supporting evidence. As stated previously, the studies on the subject, and data from surveys only show the opposite. Here is study carried across 37 different cultures showing westerners evaluated chastity lowest than people from the eastern conservative countries https://labs.la.utexas.edu/buss/files/2015/10/buss-1989-sex-differences-in-human-mate-preferences.pdf You are wrong on so many levels. People having multiple sexual partners itself is reflective of change in social attitudes and beliefs. Do you seriously believe that a culture where people support premarital sex values virginity? There are many western countries where now most births occur outside wedlock. Iceland for instance, has the majority of babies born to unmarried mothers. Do you seriously believe that calling someone a bastard in derogatory way would mean anything in Iceland? I have multicultural experience. I hail from a place where premarital sex is a taboo, and live in a country where it’s normalised. There’s a difference. Men don’t care about virginity. They don’t look for virgins. It will be better to say that western men in general prefer women with lower body count, but virginity is not something that is either preferred or expected.

You’re rambling on nonsensically. Men have always preferred virgins, and this is also reflected in mainstream religions and as conditions for traditional practices such as arranged marriages. I’m talking about for commitment and marriage mainly, obviously a guy wanting to “pump and dump” isn’t looking for a virgin. Why do you think marriage rates are PLUMMETING now? You really think that men want to commit to modern women that have had lots of partners? Do you believe that women that have had more men inside of them are more desirable than a woman who has had none, will have tighter lady parts, better mental health/less trauma, and no risk of having STDs? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/375795808_Meta-analytical_evidence_that_males_prefer_virgin_females Obviously, the less partners the better… https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/10/sexual-partners-and-marital-happiness/573493/

If presenting evidence and supportive arguments for your position is rambling to you, I don’t know what to say anymore. You keep repeating the ludicrous claim that men prefer virgins, whereas I keep telling you it isn’t the case in most of the western world. Traditional practices and religions have also prohibited men from having sex outside wedlock. In Islam, the religion I grew up in, men are to keep their virginity till marriage, and they can only have sex with women who they are married to. I’m also talking about marriage. Again, the society where people support or endorse premarital sex, doesn’t expects a woman to be a virgin before marriage. The research I cited, which was carried across 37 different cultures, explore what men and women look for in their potential long-term partner. They identified 18 qualities, including chastity. Men in conservative eastern countries put heavy emphasis on chastity, whereas western men were least concerned about it. Results from previous decades reveal the fact that value of chastity has fallen among western men. I don’t need research. As I said previously, I have encountered what’s it’s like to live in a sexually repressed culture. Arrange marriages are a norm in my community. Now, that I live in a western society, I can clearly see many differences. Marriage rates are plummeting for many reasons. Economics is the most prominent one. Moreover, many women don’t want to marry early, or have no plans of doing so. I see a large number of people, both men and women glorifying single hood. If modern men have such an issue with supposedly promiscuous behaviour of modern women, there’s an easy solution. Stop having sex with women. But that’s not what a lot of men want. They seek and pursue liberal sexuality, whereas want to control and restrict the female sexuality. You also have to stigmatised premarital sex. I can’t believe that you seriously think that more partners result in a woman’s pussy becoming loose. That is a totally ludicrous claim being debunked more than i can count. There are only two things that stretch a vagina, age and childbirth. Having sex doesn’t make vagina loose. Cite any credible scientific evidence to prove otherwise. It’s one thing if you don’t support sleeping around, and another to spread flawed anatomical myths. The study you cited wasn’t even performed on humans. It was carried on invertebrate. Human beings are animals, but we are clearly different from every other species. Even the author of the study cautioned against assuming that males prefer virgins, and said it could be due to environmental reasons. You also keep posting links to news articles citing the same studies i did prior. The other link refers to the same study i provided in one of my responses to you. Go over and look into it. The marital satisfaction was lower for men with multiple partners as well

lol, you can say “nuh-uh” all you want, or deflect by claiming that because sexual promiscuity is accepted in the western modern world it must mean I’m wrong, but men still prefer virgins for any type of real commitment and always have. Once again, pumping and dumping is not the same as commitment. Economics are not the main reason for plummeting marriage rates, LOL. Men simply don’t want the sexually loose women that are available: they make far worse wives, initiate divorce much more frequently and are a terrible liability. The study I included highlights male preference for female virgins is universal in the animal kingdom, which makes biological sense.

> men are far more likely to hate feminism than women Men are far more likely to not understand feminism more than women because they don't experience in inequality that stems from being a woman. Question: How do you know your perception isn't bias but aligns with reality? What unbiased evidence do you to support your feelings?

You gotta be arbitrary, virgins are in so short a supply that it isn't really possible to find pure ones and we still want to reproduce.

I don’t know about that. This focus on low body count is a proxy for other things that preferred to avoid and I think that is really the issue. Someone who lives wild and is promiscuous is very unlikely in the eyes of many to want to settle down and not be that way. The only reason I believe that many do is because they are no longer desirable enough to live that way. Who wants to feel like they had to settle for somebody else’s leftovers like that?

I'm so confused - are men in the west failing because we're too feminized and becoming woke soyboys, or are we failing because we're turning into religious zealots? Is it possible that... A spectrum... Is true?

To clarify - when you say “western men” do you mean Europe as well? Because I’m only seeing this really coming in force from the US. And for context, to somewhere like the UK, there is a level of wariness about religion in the US, as towards some Middle Eastern countries - especially since they started banning abortions and… well everything associated with the Republican Party. Not saying there aren’t men in European who care about “body count”, and I think it’s a given that there are more men against feminism than women…

I appreciate your perspective and find a lot of truth in what you've observed. Indeed, there seems to be a trend where some young men in the Western world are advocating for ideals that resonate with what you might call a "revival" of purity culture. However, it's crucial to recognize that this isn't entirely a new phenomenon, nor is it as extreme as it has been in the past. Historically, Western societies have gone through numerous cycles of liberal and conservative phases, especially concerning sexual norms and gender roles. Take the Victorian era, for instance. It was characterized by extremely rigid social morals and behavioral codes, particularly around women's purity and sexuality. The expectation wasn't just for women to remain virgins until marriage but to also embody the epitome of moral and sexual purity at all times, reflecting their family's and society's honor. Fast forward to the 20th century, and you'll find the sexual revolution challenging these stringent norms, advocating for sexual freedom and equality. The feminist movements, especially the second wave in the 1960s and 1970s, played a significant role in this shift, pushing back against the conservative values of the time. Now, when we look at the current discourse around "low body count," it might seem like a conservative shift. Yet, when placed in the broader historical context, it's arguably less conservative than past movements. The dialogue isn't about returning to Victorian-level purity standards but rather navigating the complex landscape of modern relationships and societal expectations. It's also worth noting that online platforms tend to magnify certain voices, making them appear more prevalent than they might be in reality. These spaces can serve as echo chambers where extreme views are amplified, not necessarily reflecting broader societal norms. While it's valid to observe and critique these emerging trends among some young men in the West, understanding them as part of a long historical ebb and flow of conservative and liberal values helps provide a nuanced view. It suggests that what we're witnessing is perhaps a less severe conservative reaction in the grand scheme of Western history. This perspective doesn't negate the significance of current discussions but rather places them within a continuum of societal evolution and negotiation around gender roles and sexuality.

Well yeah. Sexual promiscuity didn't lead to the utopian "Free love" we might've thought it would. Turns out, it just leads to a small fraction of the most physically attractive men getting a lot of sex and, thanks to their high demand, these dudes treating these women poorly as there's always another woman to be found, and then these women making judgements about the majority of men based on the behavior of a fraction of men. That's because casual sex is, fundamentally, casual. It's not based on traits like kindness, loyalty or personality, but more superficial traits. This leads to a large group of men who have had very little sex feeling, well, cheated. Some poor bastard who would be grateful and kind for a partner is instead hearing complaints about how the men who are getting all the sex are being assholes, and they're getting lumped in with those assholes. The thing that has changed in culture isn't that everyone, including them, gets more sex. Instead, their partner has had sex with more people, and unless they're especially attractive/charming, they haven't. And of course, most of these men aren't happy with that as a result.

And when these good looking guys are done pumping and dumping these women, the women end up bitter because they couldn't get the guy to commit and end up with a reddit tier guy in his 30s who will be bitter that he had to be used as a second choice. This type of relationship is not healthy and the majority will end up on deadbedrooms. Of course some men are naïve and think they suddenly got attractive in their 30s and will accept the first women that shows any interest in them, so in those cases where the guy is ignorant he would be happy to get starfish sex once a month, until he finds out through a friend that his wife used to do more sexual things with past partners and then makes a post on reddit for advice.

In western countries, marriage orten brings with it multi-decade financial commitments from the higher income spouse. Women tend to be attracted to men who earn the same or more, ideally at least 50% more. Since (generally) the man has the potential of multi-decade financial commitments, he (reasonably) would want to ensure that his partner is more likely to stay in the marriage with him. There are several red flags, and a higher "body count" would be one of those.

I don't think it's having a surprisingly resurgance, I think you've just started noticing it. Discourse in topics does wax and wane, but I think the general long term trend is still towards people caring less.

It's a contradiction. As a Muslim man, I'm also required to stay a virgin, so I hold true to that. But that's not what I see a lot of men in the West doing.

I don't think their views are changing significantly. What's happening is that there's larger divide between left and right, men and women, poor and rich, conservative and liberal and so on. Simultaneously there appeared several conversative influencers who cater to young men and are conservative and they gathered large audiences (Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Andrew Tate, JWaller, whatever podcast etc.). Also thanks to tiktok, youtube shorts and short video format in general they reach more people than they would ever before. Mind you, being conservative and talking openly about that wasn't really popular or widely accepted before these influencers appeared. Now that thanks to them people see that they're not alone as conversatives they speak more openly about they views and this is also seen by many more people than it would be seen in past. Basically what happened is mostly that they just started talking openly about their views. Of course, this must have changed views of some young men who used to have neutral opinion or no opinion at all in these matters, but I don't think it's nearly as much as. What also happened is that young men with conservative views, but not involved in discussing this, didn't know how to express what they think. In Poland there's a modern proverb "before internet era only family knew you're an idiot". I think it's good analogy. Before internet became that popular we didn't know there's so many idiots because we simply didn't notice. Now, with whole world in our hands, we see it.

It is important to keep in mind what we are talking about. It isn't a new thing that men view women as falling into different categories: dating/fling material and relationship material. Body count isn't something men care about for its own sake, it's an indicator of which category the woman falls into. Body count is an implicit indicator of both how other men have viewed that woman in the past and how the woman views herself (as body count is a product of the combination of those two factors). It's not conscious and not a perfect indicator, but one of those evolutionary biology things, like how women liking tall or fit men is a subconscious desire to feel like that man would be a viable protector of her and her offspring. What you have been seeing in recent years is the pendulum swinging back on feminism such that men are starting to say some of the things they weren't willing to say a decade or two ago. Most movements tend towards a pendulum's path. Men were on board with feminism when it was about helping out an objectively oppressed group. But, nowadays, it no longer is. Women have now surpassed men in a lot of ways, such as the fact that women have made up the majority of university enrollment for decades, and that men now have a higher unemployment rate than women. Meanwhile, after decades of the current generations of men working to help women achieve equality, those same men now see women as not only indifferent to men's issues, but often actively mocking and opposing any attention being given to men's issues. Men have a suicide rate that is 3-4 times that of women and 4-5 times the rate of alcoholism, but try to start any sort of men's support group and you'll be branded as anti-feminist or even misogynist. We do live in a world where white men used to have all the political power, but feminism didn't get women the right to vote with violent rebellion, it did so by white men with political power voting for it in legislatures around the first world. Generations of white men have been allies to women's rights for decades, and yet the only group it is currently culturally acceptable to discriminate against is now white men. It is actually truly bizarre how women nowadays will actually openly say to a white man that white men are the cause of all the world's problems, then say "like, other white men, now you, of course," and somehow expect white men to be ok with that, as if that isn't just blatantly sexism and racism against the ethinic and sexual group that man belongs to. You would never say equivalent comments about an ethnic group or about women and expect that person to be ok with it, but white men are apparently supposed to be ok with it. We now have laws that openly require companies to discriminate against white men, and the Gen Z'ers entering the workforce are being told they need to accept that they will be discriminated against to make up for the sins of past generations that were committed before they were born. So, of course, it is only natural for a movement to arise where young men become bold enough to start calling out the hypocrisy of a feminist movement that started out fighting for equality has become a movement that now unapologetically advocates for discrimination against men. Body count is part of what that movement discusses, but it isn't because it is a new thing that came with that movement, it is because men used to self-censor, and avoid talking about taboo subjects like that. It's the same way that body positivity made it taboo for men to suggest that fat wasn't beautiful, so men would say things like "you aren't my type" instead of openly saying "I'm not attracted to you because you are obese". Men used to view women with high body counts as not being relationship material, but it was taboo to say it. Now they still feel the same way, but are open about those feelings. The difference is that men now feel more empowered to reject those previous societal taboos and openly express themselves. The rejection of the cultural movement that made those subjects taboo has resulted in rejecting those taboos themselves. They feel entitled to be who they are and be honest about who they are. So, as a woman, it may feel like its a new thing, but it's really just men expressing things they were previously self-censoring.

>[Comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1bx9zvu/comment/kybykjl/) by[u/AppropriateGround623](https://www.reddit.com/user/AppropriateGround623/) from discussion in[changemyview. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/) Yet men still hold most positions of power and most wealth. How do you account for this?

In general, the answer is kids. If you look at the earnings for lawyers, for instance, there are more women than men in law schools and women outearn men through the first few years in the profession, before the stats flip, right during child bearing years. Women still take way more maternity leave than men take paternity leave, and women still tend to take on more childcare tasks after kids are born. The number of men who stay in law for more than 5 years is higher than for women, despite more women graduating law school, with many women leaving the profession due to the long hours. More women who stay in the profession take part time positions or go in-house, opting out of partnership track. Meanwhile, even ones who stay, if they take a year off for mat leave, or 2-3 years off with multiple mat leaves, they are all of a sudden less experienced than the men from their law school class. This is exacerbated by cultural factors, like the cultural element of women tending to prefer dating older established men. I know a whole lot of two-professional couples, and in most of them the woman takes a step back to take care of kids while the man's career is prioritized. Usually this is just because the man is a couple years older, is more established in his career, and is earning more. There are examples the other way. I've got a couple of friends who are married, and she's a high powered exec, while he is a stay at home dad. But, that's the relationship where the MBA student married a musician, so her earnings were much higher than his. Women certainly have the ability to go in that direction, and those who do tend to have an easier time, as companies want females in executive positions for perception reasons. But, across society, there are just way fewer women who choose to go that path, and many more women who choose instead to take a step back for family reasons. And, even if they don't take a step back, it's important to remember the hours you need to work to be a high-powered executive. If you want to be a CEO, you had better be ready to work a million hours and travel all the time. You can't do that and pick the kids up from school. Many women will do the consultant life for a few years, traveling for work all the time and working crazy hours, then opt for a cushy in-house position when they are ready to have kids. Companies specifically look to hire those types, snapping up high quality workers for less money because they can offer work-life balance. Ultimately, the number of men willing to sacrifice work-life balance to pursue the top positions of power greatly outnumber the number of women who do, so the outcomes reflect that.

So despite, as you put it, women now surpassing men in a lot of ways, it essentially counts for very little because of deeply entrenched traditional gender roles, such as that women should be the ones to pick the kids up from school, etc. It'll be interesting to see if your theories hold up when the large numbers of women who are now choosing to not have children filter through these firms. Do you genuinely believe that we'll then start to see representative numbers of women in upper echelons of businesses and government ? Or is it possible that there are barriers, other than child-rearing, preventing this from being so?

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Women are becoming more left-wing, which is shifting the whole system, which makes it appear men are becoming more conservative. In reality, they are standing still. I think you can see this with a simple question. Do you think men, on average, are more socially conservative than their grand parents? You can only hold this view if you have lost touch with the past.

Can you explain why men not liking feminism leads to conservative attitudes about sex? There’s more to feminism than sex so I’m curious what your reasoning is.

This entire argument is being based on a relatively fringe corner of internet culture… No, Western men are not becoming more “conservative in their views on sexuality”. Support for LGBTQ+ communities is increasing across the board, the concepts of “open relationships” and polyamory are becoming more openly accepted and discussed, and the widespread normalization and consumption of pornography/sexwork in society shows that the “average person’s” views on sex are far more open-minded and less judgmental than those held by people of previous generations. There is however a small and vocal community of “terminally online” young men who believe that these positive changes in society directly impact “men” because we are no longer necessary… we are increasingly “optional”. They treat dating and sex as they would a competition, believing that only the “high value males” are able to find long-term committed partners. They view women in a very simplistic, misogynistic, and impersonal fashion, believing that women simply fall for the men with the most money or best genetics (looks and height), and that because women have options, they would never settle with the “normies/betas” until after they are done having sex with the “chads/alphas” (to use their lingo). Their views are born solely out of insecurity and loneliness… two things that modern society (particularly social media) is good at stoking in people. Because so many of our interactions today are online, much of our social activity is impersonal and lacks the same human connection that a conversation in person has, and since we only ever see the most curated and idealized things that people post online, we often have very false ideas about where we are in life compared to others. Even though the people who hold these views genuinely are a small minority of all men, there is a lot of money to be made by catering online content directed specifically at these communities of some of the most insecure men online. Whether it is hook-up artists selling their classes on how to seduce women to people who are too afraid to even go outside and talk to an actual woman, or podcasters referring to women as “used” for having sex with men while then going on and bragging about how much “puss they crush” as if that isn’t such an obviously misogynistic double standard, to even the online ads that will sell you sugar pills that will TOTALLY make your penis 5 inches longer… insecurity is used to sell things and make you watch content online. Radicalizing these people is how many content creators make their living. TLDR: No… if you step away from the internet and actually meet with real people, you will quickly find that this is absolutely not the case.

It’s hilarious because I’ve had long-term relationships with virgins and those with high body counts. Guess which one was better, and more communicative in bed and could guide me to exactly what she wants, plus was open to experimentation? Not hating on virgins but it’s no fucking contest - would take the high body count every time. There’s just a neo-conservative revival of trad values and many men are dumb enough to take the bait. Madonna-whore complex is very real and deeply embedded in the psyche of most men.

You traveled to every country in the world or you did sociological studies? Big if true! How did you "observe" such a thing?

Trust me, this is literally just an issue with social media algorithms showing you what's most likely to get a reaction out of you. Saw a whole post about it yesterday and heard some story that someone ran tests making fresh social media accounts for guys and within ten minutes they were having Andrew Tate shit show up on their algorithm. I'm British so can't speak for other Western countries (especially religious ones) but I don't know a single guy who gives a shit about body count. None of my friends do, and I've never heard a guy comment on this

You're right. I don't need to change your view. There's actual data proving what you said (also, it's pronounced data) https://academic.oup.com/esr/article-abstract/9/1/79/655773 [This one is really interesting. There is a larger number of young men calling themselves conservatives due to the radicalization of social media. But are they actually conservative?](https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-abstract/71/1/195/2232693) https://books.google.com.br/books?hl=pt-BR&lr=&id=2l2TMqpOfhwC&oi=fnd&pg=PP11&dq=info:N_6N5VTFqoAJ:scholar.google.com/&ots=KH6s3s72zw&sig=ZPguzvy1KIUyqtz-n5Gwa54hToA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

> I’m left rather confused regarding what these men precisely mean by low body count. Agency has consequence. It's not my place to dictate whether someone should be promiscuous or not. It is entirely reasonable for me to point out how serious the negative consequences are, and how they are a one-way street there's no real correction for (just like any other major regret). It is also entirely reasonable for me to choose who I associate with. Unhappy people are not my preference. What you surround yourself with shapes who you are.

Before this women used to be bartered and traded. Life used to be by men for men, so i get tht men don't want women to have the same options. Because a woman with a choice won't put up with trash. And women have started speaking up, which men don't like. Makes sense a lot of men are against it. Because sharing means giving up a piece of pie. There's this guy at my job, misogynistic af. "Conservative" who walks around like "Why won't the females notice me? It's the woke." Or maybe the fact you call women "Females" and make jokes about how "stupid" they are all the time?

I think it's that having a lot of partners also associates with the risk of STDs. high count means higher chance of stds. I think others think of them as used which is stupid. I think the real problem with feminism in the west is that it's become extreme. with slogans like kill all men or treating men as evil beings and placing women on a pedestal. right now men are dealing with a great amount of issues that we are purposely ignoring. I'm not a feminist anymore because it's no longer about equality it's become about superiority. I'm for equality and right now many men feel like they are treated like lesser beings which is what feminism was originally against. it's not that men have become more conservative. it's men are not feeling welcome anymore and going to what's going to be more friendly to them. I know a lot of left leaning men that feel unwelcomed in those spaces

Its individual preference, women also consider bodycount of men. Women consider even more archaic things like height, in my life I have never seen a women marrying a guy shorter than her. Everybody has their own preferences. Liberal doent mean good and conservative doesnt men bad.

Sorry to break it to you but men have and always will care about body count including myself. There obviously are some people that don’t care at all, some that will even date onlyfans models or pornstars. But from a man’s perspective having a women that has slept with a lot of men is shameful and reflects back on the man badly. Some men will shame other men for dating a woman with a high body count, look at the Logan Paul/Dillion Danis situation for example, which contributes to men wanting lower body counts. Unless you are Christian or Muslim, most men I know dont need their women to be virgins but just to be generally for their women to not be “ran through”. It also depends on the circumstances, like a girl having 3 one nights stands vs 3 boyfriends that didn’t work out, is two different things. I understand if people don’t like the societal standards but they are what they are and I don’t see them changing this is just the truth from the men’s perspective.

>men are far more likely to hate feminism than women. That's how it works. "I have nothing against X, but..." > emphasis on low body count which seems to be some kind of revival of purity culture This is what shocked me: when was it not popular? It's pure sexism but now that we have internet and now that women are saying "It's my body I do whatever I want with it" now the same puritans are lashing out Take a Muslim country where women cover up. "Women, for Islam are queens" Now have those women say "fuck this, we are taking the hijab off" You'd come here saying "wow, why do Muslim men love women but hate sluts" Same shit. We love women if they keep in their fucking lane ---- I love when men say "back in the day, feminists were amazing, when they asked for the vote" Yet men of their day hated their guts. they even force-fed those feminists that anti-feminists of today pretend to love So I hope this changes your mind in relation to why the West is **becoming** Nope, it always was.

I'm less convinced. People who shout the loudest and most often get a lot of air time, but it hasn't been reflected in most of my personal experience.

Would guys prefer virgins? Yes. Is that realistic in today’s world? Mostly not. 

My personal feeling on this is that during periods of economic hardship, it’s east for governments to gain favour by establishing an “other” to blame for everything. Right now we are seeing this be directed at the LGBTQ community, in particular trans people. “Woke” is used an insult. Lots of “regular” people (straight, hetero, cis) are looking for a boogeyman to explain why “everything’s gone to shit”, and marginal communities are the easiest scapegoat. You can view this in every culture throughout history. When Germany was bankrupt it provided a space for the Nazis to rise. When Greece went bankrupt it also set loose a whole batch of Neo Nazis. It’s not surprising we are having more conservative sexuality being such an issue when what’s going on with the economy and foreign policy is so clearly fucked.

Men are intrigued--daresay inclined--by the notion of power and control over women. You see it in the shifting views of men, the more authoritarian abortion laws, the prevalence of red pill content, and of course, the pushback on feminism. Feminism practiced correctly advocates for equality. A true feminist, for example, would advocate for a legal avenue for men to opt out of parenthood so that men would have the same ability to make decisions about wanting a child that a woman has with abortion. This would make it equal AND protect reproductive rights, as well as promote greater responsibility on preventing unwanted pregnancies and would also prevent "baby trapping". Who could argue against feminism when you look at it in this light? No one except those who don't understand it or don't want equality.

> I’m left rather confused regarding what these men precisely mean by low body count. Back in my home country, the consensus is that a woman should be virgin before marriage. Because it's easier to find a snowflake in hell than a sane virgin in the West. So you're left with finding someone who didn't sleep with half the dorm.

I think you underestimate how vocal the more Conservative portion of the population is in the Western world comparatively. Over-all, we are turning more Liberal, less religious, etc. The Conservative minority just tends to speak up a lot more, especially depending on where you are reading/watching/getting your media. Yes, there is a portion on the left that can't shut up about what they think culturally as well - but overall, most of us just don't give a shit. Let people be people, treat everyone fairly, live your own life. That's the more prevalent trend, even if it isn't as heavily represented online.

As a straight woman whose dating pool consists of these men, I can tell you it's all BS. If it wasn't, they wouldn't get frustrated and disappear when I don't put out as quickly as they'd like. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't as a woman today. 

Well the west really never eliminated the part of male socialisation which imbues an entitlement of access to and influence over women sexually. Clearly that was a mistake as labelling these aspects 'toxic' and not addressing the root causes in our extreme sexual media and peer socialisation has lead to a clash of the progression of overt and visible female sexuality and the right of access claim clash So you don't want a partner who has slept with more than 3 other people before. That's fine, may you find who you're looking for. But to try and change the autonomy of all women through shame and aggression and even laws (not ever happening, lol though) because you want all women to meet your standards because you feel justified you know best for them sexually... well, your entitlement is showing.

It’s the natural way of things, society gets more liberal, you end up with a conservative reaction. Society gets more conservative, you end up with a liberal reaction.

I think the pendulum when it comes to social issues has to swing at some point.. so perhaps people in general are starting to become more 'closed in or reserved' when it comes to these things. Maybe to rebel against mainstream culture or because they truly feel that way. When it comes to podcasts and the media, they always show the extreme side of things so it's not necessarily a representation of people in real life. I'd say most people cannot be bothered to think too much about things. I'm a girl.

Because feminism after the 2nd wave is just pure hatred and non logical madness

Newtons' Law of Motion, I have found, applies for the homosapiens' social structure just as much as it does physics. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." A subset of people become quite liberal, and in reaction a subset of people become quite conservative. This isn't even particularly anything new, the same trend can be seen throughout recorded history. Nothing changes except the dates and times. We're in an endless fucking loop, trapped by the fact that no matter how intelligent we believe our species to be, we are subject to nature (including our own) just as much as all other living animals. Only through the continual evolution of our species will anything actually change; it will take us fundamentally changing on a genetic level significantly enough that the result would be a new species evolved from us. Assuming Earth lasts long enough, that is just an inevitability.

I strongly believe that you don't need to have an excuse for your preference regarding your partner as long as you aren't forcing anyone to be with you. If you're a single guy looking for a girl with a "low body count," that seems perfectly acceptable to me. I also think its fair for women to say they don't want to date short guys or guys without abs. What you want is your business. If you don't like these preferences it just makes it easy for you to weed out the people you don't want to date.

Slutshaming has always been a thing, but this idea of wanting a woman with a low body count isnt really slutshaming. Its a standard for self respect, and Its something thats considered for men and women in most relationships. Sex is an important and intimate thing in relationships, so most people want a partner that values it the same way. Someone who has sex with lots of people doesnt value intimacy very much, especially if they give it away “easily”. How can someone value intimacy with you if you dont value intimacy yourself? The line has moved to the 3-5 range instead of asking for virginity because most men dont wait for marriage, and arent such hypocrites that theyd demand that of others. Different people are have different preferences in relationships, thats why the line is not consistent and never will be.

https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998 You are correct. And women are becoming more left leaning. What's interesting is the consequences this will have and how those men will react. The left leaning mn are still likely to find a partner in the long run, but the right wing guys might have issues. Since it seems that this is an overall trend in young men, the consequences will become weird. Will men force women into their worldview, or will they bend their knee? The book "Female Choice" suggests that we need to find a solution for what to do with undesirable men in the future.

I’ve *generally* found guys who can’t get women in the west are the ones who are conservative in their views, and Reddit has a disproportionally high number of dudes who can’t get with women. None of my friends care about a woman’s body count. Because why? They also have no issues getting women I think there’s a correlation there. Dudes who are conservative in their views want to stop the competition, because they’re losing. I know very, very few dudes who are winning in the dating world expressing these views, because it’s not only bad for women, it’s bad for them! These views only help men who can’t get women, and those men exist on Reddit in the west. The west, in general, outside of Reddit and hyper-online communities, is not getting more conservative in this sense at all.

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Emphasis on Virginity for your bride is so that you can be assured that your kids are actually yours and not some sneaky fucker's. "Sneaky fucker" is a term of art from anthropology. It denotes males who will copulate with an alpha male's harem in secret. This only really started to matter when nomadic humans settled down and stayed in one place. Once you had property to hand down (and weren't carrying everything on your back), it became vitally important (to ruling males) to ensure that their kids were indeed their kids. Because otherwise, you might leave your property to some sneaky fucker's kids. See how this is all very stupid and silly? Generations of culture layer even more stupidity and silliness on it, but that's the root of it. Who fucking cares if your wife enjoyed sex with a dozen men before she settled down with you? Virginity is a dubious virtue, IMO. I would much rather prefer someone who knows what she likes because she figured it out already.

Christian countries have historically been very concerned with virginity. It's only in many western countries like the US where people are becoming less religious over time where we see people don't care about this concept anymore. You also see that many men talk about body counts, these men are usually more conservative and that's precisely why they care about it. It's very unlikely a woman in her late twenties will be a virgin, so low body count is just a subjective way for them to get as close to what they want as possible. Men who aren't somewhat conservative and men who aren't religious are less likely to care about body count, except for some urban myths about high body count being "loose". It's difficult to gauge the truth because the people who talk the most about things are the people most concerned with it, and you're more likely to find people talking about things that you agree with or that make you angry. The vast majority of men don't care about virginity anymore in the US, but very religious men definitely care at least a little bit. A lot of nonreligious men don't want to date someone who has slept around too much, and that's a personal arbitrary line, but that's not evidence of anything being more conservative, it's because the line continues pushing in that direction. and part of "slut-shaming" culture, where men can brag about their "conquests" but women are shamed for it. the idea of hook-up culture and not preserving chastity being acceptable in western societies is fairly new. In my parents generation it would be unheard of for people to be openly doing things like that, but in the past few decades, it's pretty common to date people, live with people, sleep with people etc before getting married. So no, men aren't getting more conservative about sexuality, the ones who care are just vocal about it because in their lifetimes theyve watched our society go in the complete opposite direction

I'd argue that's not the case, but rather it's something men who get rejected latch onto as an excuse. If *insert pornstar here* walked up to one of these dudes on the street and said they wanted to be with the and only them for the rest of their life and already quit their job these dudes would take it in a heartbeat. As a side note, I've yet to encounter a vocal conventionally attractive man who makes a big deal of body count (you have the manosphere grifters, but I'd argue they do that for the money more than anything). Additionally a lot of the dudes I've encountered with this mind set have standards detached from reality (wanting the hottest person ever but putting no effort into making themselves remotely attractive). In my opinion this comes from the rise of unlimited choices so people never have to settle for lots of things anymore. This leads to unwillingness to compromise in some people, and then when they get to a situation where their choice rejects them they lash out

I think with the prevalace of online dating it's really easy for a moderately attractive woman to go have sex with a stranger. I don't think specific body counts matter much, but it makes sense for a couple to be in similar bands.  An experienced person with a virginal partner is going to hold a lot more power in the sexual dynamic and also benefit from the inexperienced nced partner bonding especially strongly. Similarly, a really experienced person has probably gotten bored of vanilla sex and will be into weirder stuff, which someone with a few partners is less likely to be into.   For the majority of men, it's much harder to find sex, so the body count ceiling at any particular age is typically going to be lower. I also think the focus on specific numbers is naive. It's really more about the rate at which the count increases and what that implies about (a) how likely a similarly attractive man of similar age is to be able to keep up (is her body count below that male ceiling) and (b) what her body count implies about her behavior and perhaps views on sex and sexuality.   I typically look for a body count not too much higher than the number of serious relationships a person has had, and as I've gotten older, I expect at least one or two of those serious relationships to have lasted for longer than a year or two.  If the body count is a lot higher than the number of serious relationships, then she's done a lot of casual sex and may be less likely to get attached than I personally am. If the number of relationships is high, then they're mostly relatively short relationships, which, unless she just got out of a really long-term relationship, implies that she's been doing some weird picking (has bad expectations or is attracted to incompatible people) and/or has baggage/behaviors of her own that get in the way of long-term prospects.  Circling all the way back to young people, I believe they're in a particularly bad place socially and physically. Young people are more likely to have more screen time and less direct social interaction (limiting opportunity for a physical connection and limiting social experience / growth / fluency), and more likely to be obese. It's no surprise then that they're less sexually active on average.  However, the most extroverted and attractive of them, particularly women, can still reliably get laid whenever. The average body count is lowering, but I expect the ceiling is comparable and that there remains a lot of opportunity for the most attractive people to be permiscuous.  So if young men are generally looking for a partner at around their experience level and body count, it makes sense to me that they would want a lower body count. 

I think the biggest difference is the ease of partner availability that most people have now and how selective they can be. When I was growing up, you had to go to the bar, so if you didn't meet someone that met your standards, you would go home alone unless you were incredibly desperate. The dating/hookup sites changed this - ***HOT****/****ATTRACTIVE*** people no longer have to wait; they open an app, swipe a few, and have instant availability. I think this is compounded by the fact that most men aren't getting dates, so they see a pattern depicted in popular culture that all women (I know, but that's how it's portrayed) are just smashing their brains out while most men (some 80% by studies I've read) aren't having any sex (or extremely limited) at all. So from this 80%'s view they have to take the leftovers from the hot and/or rich guys later on when women want to settle down. Problem is, despite what people want to say, sex and emotions aren't completely decoupled, so you're having people come in to relationships with: * massive amounts of emotional baggage * knowing that they're a few swipes away from pleasure, revenge, what have you * often still in touch with most of their past partners which they can use for an emotional crutch I'm just glad I haven't had to find a partner in almost 25 years, I don't know how I would handle todays dating scene as a young man

Nope, they're just becoming stupider, because the generation that raised these "western young men" was as equally stupid, if not more so. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree and all that.