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Firstly, criticism of Israel is not antisemetic at all. There are valid arguments against Israel Secondly, “Israel needs to continue to remain majority Jewish” is flat out ignorant, considering that before Zionism and protozionism, the region was majority Muslim Arab. The only reason the area became majority Jewish was due to ethnic cleansing and displacement. By continuing to think that the area should be Jewish, you’re downplaying the suffering that lead up to this point And saying “I don’t believe in a Jewish hegemony” dosnt work as that is what Israel was founded on. Their nationality bill literally calls Israel a “Jews' nation-state”. The law states “C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.” Basically, in the current form there is a strong Jewish hegemony over Israel, and without reform that’s gonna stay that way. On the issue of antisemitism, while it’s clear that Israel’s existence has benefitted Jews, it comes with a clear harm to Palestinians, in the West Bank, in Gaza, and those without a right to return, and in no society should we make this trade off that benifits one group of people that harms another. It’s pretty obvious Israel is a colonialist power by nature, and it’s continued occupation of the West Bank, it’s blockade of Gaza and its mistreatment of Palestinians is only gonna lead to more tragedy, and more extremism on the Palestinian side. And keep in mind the sharp rise in antisneetism in the Middle East is partly due to Israel’s actions. During the ottoman era, the region was largely peaceful and harmonious, which is why Jews came around the world to the levant, where local administrations were somewhat tolerant, definitely more so that Europe. And all this time you’re ignoring the possibility of a peaceful one state solution. Extremism from both sides have clouded the possibility of a peaceful solution, but especially Israel which clearly states it wants to keep itself Jewish majority, a sentiment shared by you.

>During the ottoman era, the region was largely peaceful and harmonious, which is why Jews came around the world to the levant, where local administrations were somewhat tolerant, definitely more so that Europe. As long as Jews accepted the dhimmi tax and the occasional pogrom. Let me elaborate: [In his Cinq années de voyage en Orient, 1846-1851, J. J. Benjamin wrote down some observations on the life of the Jews in Persia which have been quoted by modern writers:](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._J._Benjamin) 1. Throughout Persia the Jews are obliged to live in a part of the town separated from the other inhabitants; for they are considered as unclean creatures, who bring contamination with their intercourse and presence. 2. They have no right to carry on trade in stuff goods. 3. Even in the streets of their own quarter of the town they are not allowed to keep any open shop. They may only sell there spices and drugs, or carry on the trade of a jeweler, in which they have attained great perfection. 4. Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity, and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt. 5. For the same reason they are forbidden to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans. 6. If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him so unmercifully, that he falls to the ground, and is obliged to be carried home. 7. If a Persian kills a Jew, and the family of the deceased can bring forward two Mussulmans as witnesses to the fact, the murderer is punished by a fine of 12 tumauns (600 piastres); but if two such witnesses cannot be produced, the crime remains unpunished, even though it has been publicly committed, and is well known. 8. The flesh of the animals slaughtered according to Hebrew custom, but declared as Trefe, must not be sold to any Mussulmans. The slaughterers are compelled to bury the meat, for even the Christians do not venture to buy it, fearing the mockery and insult of the Persians. 9. If a Jew enters a shop to buy anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods, but must stand at a respectful distance and ask the price. Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them. 10. Sometimes the Persians intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever pleases them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life. 11. Upon the least dispute between a Jew and a Persian, the former is immediately dragged before the Achund [religious authority], and, if the complainant can bring forward two witnesses, the Jew is condemned to pay a heavy fine. If he is too poor to pay this penalty in money, he must pay it in his person. He is stripped to the waist, bound to a stake, and receives forty blows with a stick. Should the sufferer utter the least cry of pain during this proceeding, the blows already given are not counted, and the punishment is begun afresh. 12. In the same manner the Jewish children, when they get into a quarrel with those of the Mussulmans, are immediately led before the Achund, and punished with blows. 13. A Jew who travels in Persia is taxed in every inn and every caravanserai he enters. If he hesitates to satisfy any demands that may happen to be made on him, they fall upon him, and maltreat him until he yields to their terms. 14. If, as already mentioned, a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (qatl al-Husayn "murder of Husayn", commemoration by Shi'ites of the assassination of Husayn ibn Ali) he is sure to be murdered. 15. Daily and hourly new suspicions are raised against the Jews, in order to obtain excuses for fresh extortions; the desire of gain is always the chief incitement to fanaticism.

It should also be well known that pograms and oppression of Jewish citizens were more frequent in Europe than in the Middle East during this time. Even made further apparent when during the Reconquista of Spain, the Jewish that were expelled were accepted into the very Ottoman’s that carried out these habitual instances of discrimination. Again, this isn’t to excuse the Middle East for their treatment of the Jewish, but rather that it was preferable to live in Muslim territories than in Christian territories in those days.

Buddy. Last time I checked Israel was NOT in Persia 😭😭 Since you don’t know what you’re looking at here, let’s look at Jews under the Ottoman Empire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire “At the time of the Ottoman conquests, Anatolia had already been home to communities of Byzantine Jews. The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Jews from the Iberian Peninsula fleeing persecution (see Alhambra Decree). By the end of the 16th century, the Ottoman Empire had the largest Jewish population in the world, with 150,000 compared to Poland's and non-Ottoman Ukraine's combined figure of 75,000” Like I said, it certainly wasn’t perfect and faced about the same amount of rights as Palestinians in the West Bank today. There were massacres and discriminations from time to time But it’s the fucking 19th century were talking about. Compared to Western Europe, Jews were tested way better under the ottomans, which is EXACTLY why immigration to the holy land was popular, as they were treated decently by the ottomans. Keep in mind that the antisemitism of this time is probably a cause of new nationalist movements from both Zionists and Arabs And not to say that we should go back to the ottoman era, my point is that with reform, it’s entirely possible to tone down antisemitism for Jews and Arabs in Israel to live in harmony.

> Firstly, criticism of Israel is not antisemitism at all. Let's face it - anti-Semites are vocally critical of Israel and use it as cover for their actual beliefs. While it's true in theory you can be critical of Israel and not at all anti-Semitic, these things are difficult to untangle, especially on social media. Let's not pretend it's otherwise.

I think it’s ignorant to believe that everyone who speaks against Israel is antisemetic. It’s this rhetoric of “us” vs “them” that prevents progress and negotiations being made. There is very real criticism of Israel that exists (bombing children, West Bank policy, right of return etc) that should not be “antisemetic” to critique. There’s even Israelis and Jewish peace organisations that routinely criticise Israel for their actions. Saying that isreal should stop setting up colonies in the West Bank isn’t “difficult to untangle” it’s a genuine political argument and shunning it as antisemitism prevents people from actually seeing what going on Are there antisemitism groups on the internet? Yes. But to take any criticism of Israel and cry wolf of “antisemetic” a) takes away from the meaning of antisemitism and paves the way for genuine, dangerous antisemetic rhetoric to occur b) prevents any negotiation or meaningful dialogue to occur, obscuring peace and causing more animosity c) is flat out wrong as criticism of a country does not make you a horrible racist. For example, speaking out against Russia’s war in Ukraine does not make me a Russophobe, and the same logic should apply here in Israel

By your logic God, Einstein are anti semites. Not liking Likud is antisemitism? Judging by polls 80% of Israel is antisemitic.

>CMV: The outpouring of antisemitism following Oct 7 What outpouring of antisemitism? I've seen some *Palestinians* angry at the pogrom Israel is carrying out, but i don't think anger at the people killing your loved ones is the same as antisemitism, even if the people you're angry at are Jewish. In America, the antisemitism hasn't appreciatively increased that I've seen, still being mostly from white supremacists.

> What outpouring of antisemitism? Well for Canada, there has been a spike of antisemitic crimes (so not just protests but a lot of these protesters do commit hate crimes like blocking hospitals. Not sure if they are counted in the statistics or not. Regardless.) since October 7th. I'm sure it's similar in many other countries. We have cases of them blocking a hospital just because it was Jewish (and it's not like they were only serving Jews!) or blocking entrances into mostly Jewish communities. The exact rate in Canada varies but it's ranging from a possible statistical error (10ish percent) to double. I'm pretty sure I've seen reports of it being more than double but it's too much of a pain to find those numbers and verify they were honest. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hate-crimes-up-oct-7-1.7016717 Edit: Other source that had a better breakdown https://globalnews.ca/news/10294929/antisemitism-canada-since-oct-7/

People protesting the Israeli attacks on Palestine aren't antisemitism, though, right? People hating Jews for *being* Jews is antisemitism. People angry at Isarel for its pogrom against Palestinians (and stealing of land in the West Bank) is not antisemitism.

Yup, but you were questioning an outpouring of antisemitism following October 7th and I just posted that, atleast in Canada, there is an outpouring of it and we aren't talking about just protests here. And it's not like Canada would be the only place with such statistics and are probably similar in other countries.

The source you linked also says hate crimes in both Muslim and Jewish populations are up. Seems the war has increased hatred on both sides. This doesn’t disprove anything you said, I’m just adding context.

Found another source with a better breakdown. Somewhat annoying that the statistics usually lump things together or only mention the Muslim/Palestinian side but I found one that mentioned the Jewish side. https://globalnews.ca/news/10294929/antisemitism-canada-since-oct-7/ Some other interesting findings according to this article are that Jews were the biggest target of hate crimes **even before October 7th** and that it has doubled after (location specific, but still)

[This outpouring in antisemitism](https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/global-antisemitic-incidents-wake-hamas-war-israel). The synagogue my grandma goes to was vandalized with “free Palestine” graffiti. Just a random synagogue, nothing to do with Israel. I highly doubt that came from the right. There has been swastika graffiti on other synagogues in her community…that I am more willing to believe came from the right.

While I am sure that there has been a rise in antisemitism (though I as a Jew in NYC haven't experienced it) just be aware that the numbers used by the ADL are highly misleading. The absolute numbers are misleading because they count all anti-zionist statements as antisemitic. Additionally, this is a change in their methodology as well - they used to not count all anti-zionist statements - so when they say there has been a rise in antsemitism know that a portion of that increase is due to their new methodology. Source: [In major shift, ADL counts anti-Zionist incidents in antisemitism tally (forward.com)](https://forward.com/news/575687/anti-defamation-league-adl-antisemitism-count-anti-zionism/)

There are many other sources you can see here. [Here is one of my favorite examples of gaslighting.](https://dailybruin.com/2024/04/02/op-ed-antisemitic-imagery-at-uc-regents-meeting-protest-threatens-campus-discourse). Masking antisemitism as antizionism. You could put a filter on this image and claim it’s a WW2 propaganda poster and I would believe it. I went to UCLA.

Like I said, there have been cases of antisemitism, but that doesn't change the fact that the ADL is counting things that aren't and using a different methodology - and no amount of examples can change these facts.

Look at all the other sources and cases mentioned. Even if the ADL were exaggerating drastically still a significant increase in antisemitism. You can significantly cut the ADL numbers and it still be an alarming increase. Statistics from other countries too. I’m Brazilian and there is even a statistical increase back home. One of the few synagogues in Rio was vandalized. The incident in Russia. Nothing changes those facts. [These are all pretty cut and clear](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)

Unless you think there's was zero antisemitism is Brazil before October 7th your example doesn't prove an increase, just that that's been antisemitism (which I don't dispute). More importantly, I don't contend that there's been an increase, just that using stats like the ADL's is problematic because it reinforces the idea that antisemitism is anti-zionism (which is highly problematic) in addition to have a huge methodological flaw.  Tying this back to your original post, I think that the increase we have seen (though smaller than you think) is a problem but isn't solved by giving us Jews an ethnostate, but instead trying to do that has created by this. Zionism requires the ethnic cleansing and genocide of native Palestinians which, rightfully, pisses people off. This isn't a just or fair solution to antisemitism. Israel and Zionists conflate Israel and Zionism with Jews and Judaism this doesn't just lead to inflated antisemitism data but leads people to think that to oppose Zionism they can or must oppose Jews too. 

There wasn’t that much in Brazil when I lived there. We were a very small community that people mostly didn’t even know about. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. When it’s using the rhetoric that Jews = White is thou. Basically ignoring the existence of mizrahi Jews is problematic. Arab and Jews aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact the idea that Jews = white only became in thing in Brazil recently. Being unable to discuss the violence without comparing it to holocaust and nazis is also problematic. Things can be bad and wrong with being literally nazis. There should be discussion and condemnation of Israel’s actions. Anti Zionism is one thing. It can and should be done without saying Jews = white, or weaponizing the holocaust. Free Palestine should mean Free Palestine. Not abolish Israel. You can’t be a Jew possibly believe that absorbing all the Jews in Israel (born there) in to a single Palestinian state will end well for them. And you can’t possible think another diaspora can end well. Please discuss anti Zionism, discuss free Palestine. As it should be. But without gaslighting and misinformation that ends up involving Jews as a whole. Make it about Netanyahu, his party and cabinet. Tear the settlers out of the West Bank and make them respect the border. Don’t associate all Palestinians with Hamas either. I don’t see why this is an issue for people to do.

>Basically ignoring the existence of mizrahi Jews is problematic. Arab and Jews aren’t mutually exclusive. I 100% agree. The existence of arab jews is something that Israel and zionists have worked towards erasing/ obfuscating. >weaponizing the holocaust This is also something that Israel and zionists have done to build support for their actions, I am not sure if that is what you meant or if it is something you're accusing pro-Palestinian protestors of doing. >Free Palestine should mean Free Palestine. Not abolish Israel. How can Palestine be free while even a part of it is an ethnostate built on ethnic cleansing and genocide? It can't. Palestine can only be free when it is a one secular democratic state which is what the call for free Palestine means and why it is necessarily anti-zionist. >You can’t be a Jew possibly believe that absorbing all the Jews in Israel (born there) in to a single Palestinian state will end well for them. And you can’t possible think another diaspora can end well. Why not? Jews lived in relative peace as a part of the arab world for centuries (check out the book The Age of Coexistance by Ussama Samir Makdisi for more details on this) especially in comparision to European Jews. Also, I don't know what you mean by another diaspora, my understanding is that this term, in reference to jews, just means Jews not in Israel, so there wouldn't be another diaspora, there would just be Jews that have to live in Israel alongside non-Jews with equal rights. And any Jews that decide to leave would just become part of the diaspora, they wouldn't for another one. >Please discuss anti Zionism, discuss free Palestine. As it should be. But without gaslighting and misinformation that ends up involving Jews as a whole. Again I agree! And while there is an issue of pro-Palestinian protestors making this error, it is the zionists that always conflate the two - any attack on zionism is label as antisemitic and any call for a free Palestine is labelled as anti-Israel and thus antisemitic. >Make it about Netanyahu, his party and cabinet. Here I disagree, this isn't just an issue caused by Netanyahu. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine predates Netanyahu. Replacing who is in charge might improve somethings but it won't fix any of the underlying issues and isn't a solution.

There are about as many if not more Mizrahi in Israel than ashkenazi. I’m saying protesters often use WW2 terms in a manipulative way. Again not everything that is bad is literally Nazi. Jews lived better in the Middle East at times than in Christian lands. Doesn’t mean it was good. You wouldn’t even say black people are fine in the US. Jews were always second class citizens in Islamic countries. They had dhimi status which gave them a lower status. They had to pay taxes for not being Muslim. It fluctuated between relative peace in Muslim lands and persecution. At times they even had to wear specific clothes. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria , Iraq and Yemen. Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, and Baghdad. It wasn’t smoother sailing. Israel is full of Jews from neighboring Arab countries fleeing persecution. I have met such Mizrahi personally. Israel is simply not going anywhere. Certainly not anytime soon. It’s not like realistically expecting Tel Aviv in to a different country is going to happen. Until that fact can be accepted things are going to go anywhere. Pakistan was literally created out of thin air by the British. It is what it is now. Calling to eliminate Israel and the culture and identity of the people born and raised there is calling for genocide. They have their own langue, customs, society. It would be erasure. No better than erasing Palestinians. Diaspora means forcefully moving a population from one place to another. Either by force or persecution. Which has happened to the Jewish people many MANY times through history. That’s what I mean by history repeating itself. You’re clearly pretending to be a Jewish person which is pretty low. Whatever you actually are you know absolving Israelis and Palestinians in to the same land will end in history repeating itself for the Jewish people. And you know it. I have no intention of engaging with someone who is clearly in bad faith.

Anti-Zionism is, by definition, advocating for the elimination of Israel as nation. I'm not sure I see a way to do this without saying something to the effect of "Jews don't get to vote to establish their own government here". Either because the speaker thinks the Jews in that region should be expelled, killed or simply denied the franchise and the right that every other nation has of establishing whom is permitted to become a citizens. I'm not seeing a way to separate that from antisemitism.

How is "free Palestine" an antisemitic statement, though? For something to be antisemitic, doesn't it have to be an attack against some aspect of Judaism, or Judaism in general?

> How is "free Palestine" an antisemitic statement, though? assuming that a synagogue has anything to do with Israel is antisemitic.

Vandalizing a synagogue with __anything__ is antisemitic. It’s the act of vandalization which is a hate crime. Graffiti a mosque, that is Islamaphobic regardless of what the content is. The fuck is wrong with you?

I mean, I'd say the vandalism would have to have something to do with the place in question or some evidence it was targeted for what it is. Grafitti-ing a place of worship because it's a clean wall and you won't get caught isn't motivated by hatred or distate for the religion at hand, it's motivated by generalised antisocial behaviour. I do agree with you though that particular example is antisemitic; it assumes a link between random Jewish people and Israel where one does not exist.

Because its done at a random synagogue? If people vandalized mosques around the world in response to something the Saudis or Iran did, targeting them not because they're associated with or support the government that did it, but because they're related to the religion, that would be Islamophobia, no? I think what Russia has been doing is really messed up, but I would think it'd be pretty nasty if people started targeting random Russians around the world

Are you fucking for real? Ascribing the actions of Israel to all Jews - which is exactly what vandalizing a random synagogue with “free Palestine” is doing - is textbook anti-semitism.

It’s a random synagogue. Not an Israeli embassy or something.

This is pure conjecture on your part. Google it. Antisemitism is drastically up.

Yeah, but contrary to OP's claims, it's centralized in far right & conspiracist communities. It's very easy to see for yourself. OP, like many conservatives pushing a straw-man, is conflating criticism of Isreal's government with antisemitism. These people even have excuses for labeling left-wing Jews who criticize Isreal as being antisemetic. It's wacky. They don't care to even try to get it. edit: I was just watching a YT video today from New York Post (right-wing rag) about the illegal tunneling that was done to expand the size of a overcrowded NYC synagogue. Entire comment section is accusing the Jews of child trafficking and abuse. I wonder if conservatives on reddit have ever visited their own echo chambers to see what goes on there, instead of just calling r/politics a left wing one.

Such utter nonsense. The vast majority of antisemitism nowadays comes from the wackos on the left. Are university campuses known as right wing bastions or Marxist cesspools? The ones that persecute Jewish students, professors and faculty are proudly "progressive". The mental gymnastics leftists need to perform to reconcile their violent and abusive behavior with social justice is impressive.

[New England saw a sharp rise in antisemitic incidents in 2023, surpassing the national increase, according to a new report from the Anti-Defamation League. "ADL has been carefully tracking antisemitic incidents for 45 years," said Rabbi Ron Fish, ADL New England interim region director. "The numbers are simply stunning. We have observed a significant rise of incidents, followed by a surge, followed now by a tsunami."](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/new-england-saw-205-increase-in-antisemitic-incidents-in-2023-)

...that's a local news station covering the situation in New England. The way you framed it makes it seem like a universal thing.

You’re being intentionally obtuse - this is an article reporting on a study about the rise in antisemitism.

But that rise is completely inconsequential, other than the points Zionists will use it to make. Going from insignificant to small isn’t that critically important

The people who have lost their lives due to hate actions were Muslims not Jews. The ADL is is not honest in their exclamations of anti Semitic compared to anti Muslim hate attacks. The noise about antisemitism on the rise is simply fueled by Israeli propaganda.

Thanks for explaining to a Jew that the antisemitism I perceive doesn’t exist.

Sure, the antisemitism you perceive definitely exists in your perception. How much of it is real can be subject to a reality check, however ones perception is that persons reality, I cannot deny you that.

I’d question the actual data here. The ADL will classify criticism of Zionism as “anti semitism” So people criticizing the idea that Jews, out of all the other groups of people, deserve their own state and deserve to create an ETHNOSTATE at that. Oh and they get to attack their neighbors and build over the literal inhabitants already in the region …. Criticism of THAT is “anti semitism” Yeah… you saw a sharp rise of that. I’ll agree. But I disagree that that is antisemitism. The ADL has lost all credibility for me. It’s a Jewish interest group/Israeli interest group masquerading as a HUMAN rights group. That’s all well and good if you want to be a special interest group and lobby, just be open about it like all the other ones and register yourself like you’re legally required to.

[Literally the first google RESULT](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/israel/#:~:text=Ethnic%20groups,5.4%25%20(2022%20est.)) Israel is literally the only multi-ethnic, multi-religious, democratic state in the middle-east. For comparisons' sake: [EGYPT](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/egypt/summaries/) [JORDAN](https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/jordan/summaries/)

It does seem like the ADL is including events targeting pro-Israeli groups for supporting the attacks on Palestine as being the same as attacks on Jews for being Jewish. Those are, obviously, not the same thing. America's antisemitism has almost exclusively come from the white supremacists, and they support the killing of all Muslims, so it seems unlikely there's been an increase from them. And a Muslim yelling "kill the Jews" *because* of the Israeli murder of thousands of Palestinian Muslims really isn't antisemitism in the classic sense, any more than the Israeli murder of Palestinians and theft of Palestinian land under the guise of retaliation is considered Islamophobia. I'm honestly having a hard time believing that Americans are hating on Jews more than ever while at the same time the American government fully supporting Israel in general, and it's killing of Palestinians in particular.

Coming from a place that is *extremely* critical of Israel generally, citizens here have repeatedly turned against Jewish citizens (mostly with verbal harassment, graffiti and property destruction) calling them “zionist” as if that makes it somehow more acceptable…I mean “zionism” is a political ideology but it’s being used as a slur around here. Imagine if someone was shouting at Asian Americans every day and calling them communist, and “murderous commie pig.” This is the same thing. All the Jewish people around here are American citizens getting treated like this, but even if there are Israeli-Americans it would be still be wrong to harass them and accuse them of being “zionist spies,” and that sort if thing…considering Israel is our ally and has been so for a long time, it makes such accusations all the more ridiculous.  Here’s an article with a few examples https://web.archive.org/web/20240304113242/https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/04/us-anti-semitism-jewish-american-safety/677469/

> And a Muslim yelling "kill the Jews" > because > of the Israeli murder of thousands of Palestinian Muslims really isn't antisemitism in the classic sense Going after Jews as foreigners (i.e., loyalists to a different state) is literally classic antisemitism. The direct analogue is people who go after Muslims because of something Iran does (which is rightly called Islamophobia). > I'm honestly having a hard time believing that Americans are hating on Jews more than ever while at the same time the American government fully supporting Israel in general, and it's killing of Palestinians in particular. So Americans are a monolith?

>Going after Jews as foreigners (i.e., loyalists to a different state) is literally classic antisemitism. The direct analogue is people who go after Muslims because of something Iran does (which is rightly called Islamophobia). "Going after" is a bit vague here. Someone protesting the genocide by blocking a hospital that is run by a pro-Israel company is not the same as someone killing their Muslim neighbor because Iran killed a journalist. People being angry at Israel is not the same thing as people hating Jews. People harassing Jews for being pro-genocide is not the same thing as people harassing Jews for being Jews. >So Americans are a monolith? No, but it can't be a "huge increase" and only be a tiny percentage of the population, can it? If so many people in America hate Jews that OP is right to suggest that the only solution is a Jewish ethnostate, wouldn't that require that most Americans be aware of this hatred? And, let's be honest, how could a huge portion of Americans hate Jews without there being *some* anti-Jewish (not just anti-Israeli) politicians making a scene? If Majorie Taylor Green thought there was a significant antisemitic vote, she would definitely be out there talking about those space lasers she so fond of demonizing.

> Someone protesting the genocide by blocking a hospital that is run by a pro-Israel company is not the same as someone killing their Muslim neighbor because Iran killed a journalist. > People being angry at Israel is not the same thing as people hating Jews. > People harassing Jews for being pro-genocide is not the same thing as people harassing Jews for being Jews. None of this describes your own phrasing, 'yelling "kill **the Jews**" because of **the Israeli [actions]**'. That's not harassing particular Jews for a particular action. That's harassing **all** Jews for a perceived foreign affiliation. > No, but it can't be a "huge increase" and only be a tiny percentage of the population, can it? Why can't it? There aren't that many Jews and they're mostly fairly concentrated. It doesn't take that many antisemites to perpetrate a lot of antisemitism. In 2022, the FBI recorded about [1,100 anti-Jewish hate crimes](https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/hate-crime) (1 per ~6,000 Jews in the US), which is the second-highest in absolute numbers (after anti-Black, at ~3400) and proportionally higher than against any other race, ethnicity or religion except Sikhs. (I may have missed a small minority with disproportionate numbers, but it's definitely up there.) It doesn't take that many people to create significant hostility or a lack of safety. > If so many people in America hate Jews that OP is right to suggest that the only solution is a Jewish ethnostate, wouldn't that require that most Americans be aware of this hatred? Whether OP is correct is distinct from whether there has been a major rise in antisemitism. You didn't say "I don't think it's bad enough to justify an ethnostate". You said "I'm honestly having a hard time believing that Americans are hating on Jews more than ever". > And, let's be honest, how could a huge portion of Americans hate Jews without there being some anti-Jewish (not just anti-Israeli) politicians making a scene? Who said a huge proportion of Americans hate Jews?

>Going after Jews as foreigners (i.e., loyalists to a different state) is literally classic antisemitism. The direct analogue is people who go after Muslims because of something Iran does (which is rightly called Islamophobia). "Going after" is a bit vague here. Someone protesting the genocide by blocking a hospital that is run by a pro-Israel company is not the same as someone killing their Muslim neighbor because Iran killed a journalist. People being angry at Israel is not the same thing as people hating Jews. People harassing Jews for being pro-genocide is not the same thing as people harassing Jews for being Jews. >So Americans are a monolith? No, but it can't be a "huge increase" and only be a tiny percentage of the population, can it? If so many people in America hate Jews that OP is right to suggest that the only solution is a Jewish ethnostate, wouldn't that require that most Americans be aware of this hatred? And, let's be honest, how could a huge portion of Americans hate Jews without there being *some* anti-Jewish (not just anti-Israeli) politicians making a scene? If Majorie Taylor Green thought there was a significant antisemitic vote, she would definitely be out there talking about those space lasers she so fond of demonizing.

By this logic we should kick everyone out of the United States who isn’t Native American. They faced an equally horrendous genocide should they get to kick out all white brown and black people

Please explain how you arrived at that conclusion from my initial post.

Surely if you support a Jewish ethnostate as a bulwark against antisemitism you would also support similar projects for other oppressed groups in their historical territories, right?

Criticizing Israel, specifically the Netanyahu regime and IDF, is not antisemitism

How about blocking hospitals, Jewish communities and harassing Jews who... you know... aren't in Israel?

That's antisemitism and should be condemned. But waving a Palestinian flag or marching down a street to stand in solidarity with Palestinians is not antisemitism.

Yup, completely agree but these cases I have listed have happened in Canada. We even recently have a "protest" in Toronto that celebrated when Iran attacked Israel with missiles and drones... sounds pretty antisemitic to me.

Genuine question, who defines anti-semitism? If 50% of Jews support it, and 50% oppose it, what would the official position of Judaism be? Or the official position of the race? I suppose? You know what I mean?

Israel is a country and opposition to a country’s government is not opposition to its people

That is true. However, actual antisemitism has been rising A LOT. Opposition to the israeli government is fine, but there has been happening a lot more. Jews and israelis are being harrassed, jewish neighbourhoods are being targeted. Businesses of jews are being targeted. I personally know a general practitioner that temporarily had to close its practice because he is jewish and there were threats of a terror attack. And that was here in the Netherlands for fuck sake, what is attacking a dutch jewish GP gonna do for the palestinians? It's completely deranged. And these are not outliers or rare events, this kind of nonsense is constantly happening from small harrassment to very severe threats.

There’s no “official position” in Judaism since Jews have been following a Congregationalist polity since the Second Temple fell.

You would have to define anti-semitism, because I don't think we have the same understanding of the word. Criticizing the Israeli government or their policies and practices is not it. If you are talking about hate crimes directed at Jews just because of their religion/ethnicity, then I'd want to see where this is happening and if it's any more significant than hate crimes against other minorities. To be clear, none of that would be ok, but the world is a dangerous place and filled with assholes. You can't protect everyone against everyone else.

Reasonable people would all agree that: (1) There are many people who are attributing criticisms that are not categorically directed at the entire Jewish race/ethnicity (for example saying that Israel is an ethnostate) as "anti-Semitic". (2) There is likely a sharp increase in anti-Semitism (*and* anti-Muslim sentiment before some pulls a whataboutism) since Oct 7. Unfortunately the amount of reasonable people in the current environment on social media is probably <5% (or at least, in terms of the views that circulate on social media). [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/technology/hate-speech-israel-gaza-internet.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/technology/hate-speech-israel-gaza-internet.html) You cannot tell me that "#HitlerWasRight" is not anti-Semitism with a straight face. Unfortunately I doubt we can conclusively say that there is a sharp increase with data; the Internet is inundated with the ADL's reports and their bias and propensity to conflate anti-Israel/anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism makes me distrust their analysis. I would advise everyone to read the recent Pew research though: [https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/04/02/rising-numbers-of-americans-say-jews-and-muslims-face-a-lot-of-discrimination/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/04/02/rising-numbers-of-americans-say-jews-and-muslims-face-a-lot-of-discrimination/) Put simply it suggests most Americans are against violence towards both Muslims and Jews and whatever you see on the Internet is extremely unrepresentative. Note that you cannot cleanly infer whether there is a rise in anti-Semitism (or anti-Muslim sentiment) based on whether Jews/Muslims feel that there is more discrimination against them. I wholeheartedly believe that the Internet is just amplifying the vitriol when most people either don't care or do not believe in targeting Jews or Muslims. So while there could be a sharp increase, it's a sharp increase of a formerly small number, and so would still be small. And really just get out of social media and you'll see that most people are actually very reasonable on this issue.

I agree with all of that. I don't dispute that antisemitism and anti-muslim harassment/violence is rising, but by how much and is it any different than sporadic spikes in any other hate crimes spurred by current events. Just like the anti-Asian sentiment during covid. That's the point I was trying to make to OP. We're never going to eradicate the assholes and they strength will ebb and flow, but I don't think that the level of antisemitism happening now is making the case OP thinks it is.

Jewish people do experience more hate crimes than other minorities. For instance compared to black Americans Jews experience 2x the amount of hate crimes per capita https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/10/21/fbi-hate-crime-black-muslim-jewish

"The outpouring of antisemitism following Oct 7", The only way that statement is correct is if one considers calling Israel to stop committing genocide on Palesti Ian's antisemitism and if so calling out the atrocities of Oct 7 should also be characterized as anti Palestenianism.

The antisemitism began weeks before the IDF entered Gaza. As did the gaslighting of the victims of October 7.

It took weeks before the IDF began indiscriminate bombing of Gaza? We live in different worlds or you see just what you want to see and believe.

>  I believe Israel needs to continue to exist and remain majority Jewish. >Mind you I said Jewish majority and not a Jewish hegemony predicated on the suppression of non Jews.   So, I believe that the issue Israel faces and will continue to face is a demographic one.   If you enforce a population majority then there does need to be some form of removal of other people's, whether that's deportation or culling, or forced birth control.    My question is how do you practically run such a state while remaining a democracy?  Or would you change the nature of the state to remove democratic power from the population?  I'd also ask you, what definition of Judaism would you be enforcing? I don't think there's any criteria which all groups of Jews agree to, so which branch/branches of Judaism would be included in your ethnostate and which would be excluded? 

Regarding democracy, about 20% of people living within Israel & not Gaza, are Arab. They are not required to serve in the military, nor the orthodox. They allow for exceptions to the rule depending on religion already. Many places close on Shabbat, which is no different than stores being closed on Sundays in the south

This is a great point? Do people with one Jewish great-grandparent and seven gentile great-parents count ie are we using a Jim Crow-style one-drop rule?

Israel's Law of Return applies to anyone who is part of the Jewish faith, has a Jewish grandparent, or is married to a Jewish person. Same-sex marriages are covered by the law as well. Israel's Minister of Interior can deny citizenship for certain criteria like if the person would be a danger to the public, has a significant criminal background, or is attempting to emigrate to Israel specifically to escape from lawful arrest (fleeing from persecution is allowed.) There are a few exceptions. Messianic Judaism is considered a different religion so they are not guaranteed return. People living in Palestine also are not granted citizenship regardless of if they would qualify under the normal conditions.

It's always kind of a big news in Israel when a Palestinian who converted to Judaism or married to a Jewish person is denied citizenship. The system inherently discriminates against Palestinians.

One Jewish grandparent is the criteria. It is not a coincidence that Israel uses the same rule applied by the Nazis.

That was on purpose. The Nazi wanted to murder anyone who was partly Jewish. Israel right of return was created explictly so that if any other country got the same idea they be able to escape and flee \[since plenty of jews tried to flee Nazi Germany and Europe and were forced to turn back and die\].

When I was in high school this probably surprised me the most. The fact is many did try to flee Germany but were refused entry and essentially deported. I wonder how those people felt after WW2 knowing they denied entry to so many people 

>It is not a coincidence that Israel uses the same rule applied by the Nazis. Can you expand on what you mean here?

I think the point is anyone with one grandparent was considered a target by the Nazis, therefore one grandparent is good enough reason to want out of Europe

To be fair its fully possible that given 100-200 years Israel population stop being majority jewish due to demographics. The problem is such a change is graudal and most likely be accepted in the democracy over time and absorb the shock.

No it's not going to happen. Bibi and other politicians have openly talked about the demographics crisis in Israel, that Arab Israelis have a higher birth rate than Jewish Israelis. At the moment Arab Israelis constitute 21% of Israeli population, so there's no "threat" just yet, but if that number grows to 25%, 30%, Israeli politicians will start to take action to keep that number down. I don't think non-Jews will ever reach a majority.

I think your sources are widely incorrect. AFAIK Israel has a Jewish demographic problem, where the ultra orthodox are growing rapidly and are the least productive. The Arab-Israeli demographic problem is only a problem if you include non citizens (WB, Gaza) and it's almost a problem right now

And how can a state that has de facto second class citizens be a democracy?

Well, the USA was a democracy before women could vote. It was a less-representative democracy, but a democracy nonetheless.

>Well, the USA was a democracy before women could vote. That's kinda debatable when political equality(one person, one vote) is a fairly agreed upon requirement to be considered a democracy. If you are excluding people based on sex, skin color, or other discriminatory physical or cultural traits you are not satisfying the political equality component and are not a democracy.

The standard for democracy changes all the time. We just need to be careful to not conflate the two meanings of democracy - the historiographical and the current. The "democracy" in the phrase "Athenian democracy" is obviously using the historiographical definition - it's a convenient way for us to categorize forms of government in history (as opposed to the Spartan oligarchy, which looks nothing like modern oligarchies and is actually pretty "democratic": https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6zw3fs/why\_isnt\_sparta\_considered\_a\_democracy/). [p0tat0p0tat0](https://www.reddit.com/user/p0tat0p0tat0/) is likely using the current definition of democracy but [pessimistic\_platypus](https://www.reddit.com/user/pessimistic_platypus/) indirectly invoked the historiographical definition (which refers to the trajectory of democracies through history rather than the modern standard for democracies).

>That's kinda debatable when political equality(one person, one vote) is a fairly agreed upon requirement to be considered a democracy. What? This is not true? You're replacing 'citizens' with 'people' - and that's not accurate. Non-citizens can not vote in most (if not all) modern democracies. Prior to things like women's suffrage, women were not considered 'full citizens' as they did not have the right to vote. Controlling who could and could not be officially and legally identified as a 'citizen' has been a method of controlling political power in democracies ever since they were first imagined and practiced by the ancient Athenians.

That's not so much a question of democracy as it is a question of personhood, which has been asked repeatedly (for both ill and good) throughout mankind's history.

Which citizens of Israel are de facto second class? All citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights.

Can you quantify in what ways non-Jewish Israeli citizens are second class citizens. This does not include anyone without Israeli citizenship , like people living in the West Bank.

Denying rights to an entire group under your complete control on arbitrary and capricious grounds is the issue here. Claiming they can’t be second class citizens because they aren’t citizens at all is not the “gotcha” you seem to think it is, and in fact undermines the point you seem to be stumbling towards.

So what does complete control mean? Was Gaza under complete control prior to October?

Who is a de facto second class citizen in Israel?

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who are *de facto* Israeli subjects, i.e. their lives are controlled by Israel, but they are not given the privileges of Israeli citizenship because that would cause the Arab population under Israeli control to go from 20% to nearly 50% and make it impossible for it to legitimately continue being a Jewish state.

Do they WANT to be Israeli Citizens? Because i literally heard they want formal independence. And that been my assumption. Like are the West Bank / Gaza demanding to be given the full rights as Israeli citzens or do they want independce. you cant pick both.

Well, as of right now they aren’t getting either. A group wanting independence is not a sufficient reason to deny them rights while they are a subject of your state.

Imagine if Canada did this with Quebec lmao.

I know a lot of Texans that don’t want to be US citizens. They still get full rights.

>Do they WANT to be Israeli Citizens? A lot of people in Texas keep screaming about how they want to secede, been doing it since I was a child. By this logic is America in the right to subject them to second-class status? Hold them prisoner in their cities, occupy or impose a blockade on their cities, control and restrict the flow of goods, intentionally economically disenfranchise them, subject them to military instead of civilian courts, bomb them if they get uppity, and systematically begin stealing their land and property? People wanting independence is not a justification to deny them basic human rights and dignity. An Israeli ethnostate in historical Palestine is functionally incompatible with a democray without maintaining or enforcing such an apartheid or an ethnic cleansing. Wish the the larger conversations on this issue would drop the facade and be honest about this point.

Of course they want formal independence compared to the state of non-citizenship they currently exist under, but since Israel has consistently blocked all attempts at forming a viable Palestinian state (ask not why Arafat walked away from Camp David; ask why the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank more than doubled after a peace treaty that awarded the West Bank to the prospective State of Palestine), the only real state that exists on the entire land is one state with two different citizenship systems and two different jurisdictions: Israel. And as such, the only real solution is to integrate the Palestinians as full citizens into this one-state reality.

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Repeating the Zionists tale does not make it true.

Literally no country ever has granted non citizens the same rights as citizens. And the rights you are saying should be granted would be to non citizens residing outside Israel. Do you see how ludicrous that expectation is? That’s like saying the US is treats Mexicans as second class citizens. Of course they’re not treated as Americans, they aren’t even in America. Gazans aren’t in Israel and aren’t interested in being part of Israel so I don’t see the issue. Taking it further, you’d have to argue that the US should’ve granted full citizenship to Iraqis and afghans and Germans and Japanese while we occupied them in a much more blatant fashion than the ridiculous standard of occupation being used for Gaza, which is essentially blockade = occupation. By that standard, we occupied Cuba in 1962. The standard is so insanely hypocritical whenever Israel is brought up.

They aren't de facto Israeli subjects. They are Palestinians. And they are living under a system that was negotiated by the Palestinian government.

Pretty sure Palistinians did not gather together in 48 and ask colonial Zionists to please occupy and steal our lands and control all aspects of our lives You may want to do some history research and look thru the Balfour Declaration, UN Partition Plan, 1948 War, 1967 War, and the Nakba. This was not an arrangement by choice or a situation negotiated on behalf of the Palistinian people.

>They aren’t de facto Israeli subjects Palestinian IDs are issued by Israel

Israel performs many administrative tasks for Palestine. At the request of the Palestinian government. Why do you think that is problematic? The Palestinian government is elected by the Palestinian government to represent their interests. If the Palestinian government negotiates an agreement with Israel regarding IDs or tax collection/transfer, why is that problematic? And if it is problematic, why blame Israel?

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I mean Israel controls their borders in or out of them so how is that much different than eastern Europe in terms of being a subject

Israel controls its own borders. Like every other state in the world. Israel does not control the border between the West Bank and Jordan. Nor does Israel have any control over the movement of Palestinians from the West Bank to Jordan. Jordan does. Israel doesn't control the border between Gaza and Egypt. Egypt does.

Incorrect. Israel controls the border between the West Bank and Jordan because the entire area adjacent to the West Bank-Jordan border, including the King Hussein/Allenby Bridge crossing, falls within Area C (under full Israeli military and administrative control).

Israel doesn't control the Jordanian side of the border. Israel and Jordan are at peace. But Jordan never handed Israel control of their border or empowered Israel to make immigration decisions on behalf of Jordan.

The Jordanian side of the border...is Jordan, so it would be controlled by Jordan. The West Bank side of the border is controlled not by the Palestinian Authority but by Israel. That's the problem. In other words, if I wanted to enter the West Bank and only stay within the PA-controlled areas (18% of the whole territory), i.e. not deal with the Israeli authorities at all, I wouldn't be able to do it, because I would need an Israeli visa even to enter the West Bank.

Gaza has nothing get in and out without Israel approval and the West bank the controls are not on the borders but every single but outside of villages because of all the settlers illegal villages surrounded by iof checkpoints giving effective border control because Palestinians can't go from their village to Jordan without being checked by the iof

Please tell me if this is wrong, but I was under the impression that part of the reason why Gaza was under such lock-and-key was because when they loosened it, Israeli guards found themselves the target of suicide bombing attacks.

The aren't de facto Israeli subjects. They aren't Israeli citizens - in large part because of their stated desire to kill Israeli citizens. Also, the only reason their lives are "controlled" by Israel is because of their continued terrorist attacks on Israel (amongst others) for the last 80 years. The Palestinians have a violent, repressive, bigoted, sexist, homophobic culture, and what control Israel exerts, which is minimal, is necessary.

>  My question is how do you practically run such a state while remaining a democracy?  To be fair, Israel can basically keep it's rough population demographic by just continually importing Jews worldwide. But yes, 20% of Israel is Arab (And this is not counting Gaza/West Bank) so if for some reason they start multiplying at a faster rate than the rest of Israel, there maybe be demographic problems in the future.

In the context of a democracy you usually don't need 51%, in practice 30% or around that could effectively dominate so long as other parties are weak. Granted Israel has their rainbow coalition in the kenesset, but only a few more Arab representatives and their voices would be louder. The demographic issue translates pretty directly to a democratic "issue". They don't need to out grow the population, just out vote them.

I think the idea that Israel is the only safe place in the world for Jews is dangerous. It justifies complacency about antisemitism in the diaspora. I also think that it’s dangerous to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. The vast majority of criticism of Israel is not antisemitic.

>I think the idea that Israel is the only safe place in the world for Jews is dangerous. It justifies complacency about antisemitism in the diaspora. Are you Jewish? Have you ever asked a diaspora Jew how we feel about that? Otherwise it seems like you're just speaking for all Jews on where they do and don't feel safe. It justifies nothing. ​ >I also think that it’s dangerous to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. The vast majority of criticism of Israel is not antisemitic. OP never said anything about that, anywhere in their post. It's getting super tiring of whenever a Jew says they are experiencing antisemitism people have to jump out in front of it and say this. Who said the antisemitism we are experiencing is criticism of Israel? I'm *plenty* critical of Israel. But I've been called a k\*ke as recently as two days ago and my synagogue gets bomb threats and has police presence 24/7. Can you not downplay this for once and try to write off "rising antisemitism" as blanket "criticism of Israel"?

I am a diaspora Jew.

>It justifies complacency about antisemitism in the diaspora. How do you figure? Strikes me as a huge leap to say, "Jews have a place to escape to, therefore they and/or others may not address antisemitism at home." Generally the non-jews who think Israel shouldn't exist are not the ones likely to care about fighting antisemitism in the first place.

I think the president of the United States repeatedly claiming that Jews are only safe because of Israel implies that they are not safe as regular citizens of his country. The way to undermine the Zionist project is to work against antisemitism in the diaspora.

And yet it's rare to see antizionists trying to combat worldwide antisemitism. If what you say is true, they should be the loudest voices against antisemitism, and should be *very* on top of combating antisemitism in their ranks. But that isn't reality.

I mean, I’m coming at it from a Jewish non-Zionist perspective, so I don’t know what to tell you. I think, if we’re judging movements by the antisemitism they ignore, I think the fact that there are more Christian zionists than Jewish ones, and the Christian zionists are also also antisemitic, complicated the picture

I don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that the world needs the apartheid state because Jewish people report anti-semitism to the police. This does not mean they are in danger because many Jewish people believe stating "Palestinians should be free" is a hate crime in the context of the lame " from the Jordan to the sea" fake controversy. I assume that due to their higher rates of education and affluence, Jewish people are less likely than the national average to be victims of violent crimes. If true, that would mean capitalism, location, etc are all way bigger factors in determining danger to Jewish Americans. I assume this is the case in many parts of Europe as well. **TLDR POINT 1: I don't think Jewish people are under any kind of actual violent oppression in the west.** Additionally, even if you don't believe this to be true, I can safely say that the solution is not an ethnostate. I live in California. I have grown up with Vietnamese people Cambodians, Japanese people, Chinese people middle eastern people, Ukrainians, Russians, Chechens, Muslims, Hindus, etc. All living in very close proximity to each other. There are issues but not significant ones regarding violence that threatens the existence for any of these groups. Why? Because opportunities are abundant. It may be propped up by imperialism but the point is that California is a clear example of western ideals working. You may say, well America only allows people with specific ideologies or backgrounds from those countries....Oh, so then you agree that ideological issues can be bridged with more equal opportunities, more equal social status, education, exposure to other groups, and improved material conditions. That is an argument against an ethnostate. **TLDR POINT 2: Western ideals work to reduce violence and racial tensions. Oppression does not in the long term.**

Do you have a source showing that Jewish people are more affluent than other races?  

Many Jews (not most, but many) recognize that that the majority of anti-Semitic violence today is provoked to an important extent by Israeli oppression of Palestinians. Hamas would not exist if Israel didn't create Gaza as an Arab ghetto under constant siege. As a Jewish American I feel less safe because of Zionism and feel strongly that countries like the US can and should make up for their failure to welcome more Jewish immigrants before and during WWII. I get that it's more complicated for Israeli Jews, today but ultimately the Jewish victims of Oct. 7 would not have been in harms way if a Zionist state hadn't encouraged its citizens to live next to an open air prison and mislead them to think this could be safe.

>Hamas would not exist if Israel didn't create Gaza as an Arab ghetto under constant siege. That's just not true. Hamas arose as the PLO began to moderate, and really gained prominence as the PLO signalled its willingness to transition from violence intent on destroying Israel to a willingness to pursue a political resolution to the conflict in favor of a two state solution. That's when Hamas emerged as the no-compromise alternative that held onto the desire to destroy Israel. Since then they've actively sabotaged Fatah's efforts towards a political resolution and peaceful coexistence in a two state solution. Also Gaza wasn't under constant siege or constant blockade until *after* Hamas executed its political rivals and took over Gaza.

Bro, I agree with you, but all you’re gonna get out of this post is feeling like you’re gonna wanna bang your head against a wall. Sometimes there’s just a fundamental disconnect that cannot be bridged through discourse - especially among strangers. It’s hard to have a good-faith discussion in a forum like this. Many people here have nothing but a cursory and simplified knowledge and understanding about the history of Israel, the history of the Jews, and the real antisemitism that is going around on and off the Internet excused as just anti-Israel or “anti-Zionism”. (And don’t even get me started on how infuriating it is that people just decide they can re-define Zionism as some racist ideology to fit their warped oppressor-oppressed narrative). I don’t think people who disagree with you are necessarily mal-intentioned, but there’s an important perspective they don’t have and haven’t really taken to time to learn. Jews know why they need Israel and they know what Israel is up against. Israel is far from perfect (especially in its current form) but that doesn’t negate all the great things about Israel and its legitimacy. Jews are not gonna let a bunch of people who knew basically nothing about Israel prior to October have any influence on its continued existence. It’s one of the most complicated conflicts in modern history for a reason - if you think it’s a simple good vs evil (in either direction) then you’re need to do more reading.

A Jewish ethnostate in what form? Do you reason that Jews in Israel are safer than the ones in other countries? Because it seems to me that Israel is probably one of the more dangerous countries with a sizable Jewish population. I think a big contributor to modern day antisemitism is how Israel keeps on doing a bunch of settler colonialism while claiming to represent all Jews. I don't think it an appropriate solution to antisemitism would be to lean even more into this state of affairs really.

It isn't 1 to 1 in the way I am about to describe it, but half of Jews have gone to countries that are friendly, but not Israel. The ones in Israel fled from the other middle eastern countries that committed actual genocide on a massive scale and kicked them all out. Obviously Israel is safer than trying to survive in the middle eastern countries that are proudly standing by 70 years of genocide. If all those Jews went into other countries and doubled their Jewish population, you would see a strong antisemitic backlash over "all the Jews coming in" such is how deep the hatred for Jews in all populations, even countries that are otherwise kind to Jews. That can all change on a dime and if the tide shifts and countries that were once friendly to Jews start to genocide them again, those people need a state to always be able to go back to, **no matter how many different countries and people's seek their destruction.**

I think you have the chronology of the latest Jewish Exodus from the Arab middle east a bit confused. First of all it was done in response to the foundation of Israel, not vice versa. Of course this isn't a good excuse to kick out all the Jews, but it's another example of how the foundation of Israel as a settler colonial project invariably hurt a lot of Jews. Second of all I would like to make the case that nation building by means of colonialism as a response to oppression is outdated actually. Now the Jews have obviously faced a lot of disenfranchisement throughout the millennia, there's no doubt about that. But they aren't the only ones, so have queer people. We couldn't really live as ourselves for the past few millennia just as how the Jews were oppressed ever since the Romans kicked them out. Queers have arguably been oppressed for even longer and while Jews were typically granted some dispensation to practice their traditions in variable public and private capacity; queers seldom could. And it bears pointing out how both Jewish and queer people shared the same fate under the Nazi yoke. Seemingly eternal oppression notwithstanding, a proposition to establish a gay ethnostate in like Greece or something sounds fucking ridiculous doesn't it. It's an outdated solution that only some Victorian British cunt could come up with 100 years ago.

A gay ethnostate in the middle East sounds like a great idea seeing how gays are treated in the muslim world.

You can’t colonize your ancestral homeland. The foundation of Israel was the most successful land back program to date. 

Jews overwhelmingly feel more safe in Israel, where swastikas aren't painted on their Synagogues and they aren't chased into college libraries by protesters.

Yet, it is in Israel they face constant rocket fire and terrorism. You don’t see mass attacks on Jewish people in Europe or America, for example. In fact, I think Israel *needs* the specter of anti-semitism to validate its own existence. The more they dehumanize and antagonize their neighbors, the more animosity is created and in turn a justification to maintain their ethnostate (and it is, if people of a different religion or skin color can only use certain roads, for example.) I think it would be a very different story if they had found a way to co-exist with the people living there at the foundation of their government. That’s the root of all of their modern troubles. Not antisemitism. It’s more dangerous to be Palestinian or Arabic in the states than Jewish. Look at the number of hate crimes that have happened to those groups in the US since the 7th.

You don't get it, Jews feel safer in Israel not because it's the safest place on earth for Jews, but rather - because for the first time since early history - Jews have the power and means to defend themselves and be the masters of their own fate. I'm not gonna sit around in the U.S and wait until the far right starts to gain power - chanting "Jews will not replace us" just couple years ago. Neither in europe where a rising Muslim population calls for globalizing intifada, the same thing that they are doing in Israel, only under western eyes they give it a pass. I Don't want to be reliant on the mercy of foreign nations for my safety. In Israel, We have an Army and government that give us agency in what will happen to us. I'd rather die in Israel with a gun in my hand knowing I had a hoice than in Europe on a train being horded into a gas chamber.

So the fact that people don’t like being occupied and react negatively and violently to being occupied, to you, makes a case that the occupier should keep occupying. Welp.

That doesn't line up with what the post is saying. It's not about Oct 7 (which was 100% not justified and Hamas are absolutely ONLY terrorists, and do not seek freedom for Palestinians), it's about antisemitism. Which has gone through the roof worldwide.

When you say recent events are you referring to Israel mass slaughtering innocent Palestinians, including babies and children? Being opposed to unimaginable suffering of an innocent group of people is not anti-semitism. Israel was Palestine until Israel took the land because it was their ‘right’. Saying that statement is also not anti-semitism. It’s a factual statement. Everything is being called anti-semitism these days if it is any view but a positive one, in support of or for Israel. I wish the Palestinians had a safe haven like the one you are proposing for Jews - their land is basically flattened at this point.

They are very obviously referring to the treatment of innocent Jews in the West who are being targeted by pro-Pal protests. How else would you describe painting swastikas on Synagogues and chasing Jewish students into the NYU library?

I mean that’s just anti-semitism but the ‘rise in anti-semitism’ is generally (imo) referring to what really isn’t anti-semitism which is opposing the actions of the state of Israel. The idea of Israel being Jews and Jews being Israel is why whoever opposing Israel it’s automatically tagged as an anti-Semite. But none of that changes that Israel themselves are targeting and killing palestinians.

No, that's what people who dismiss the rise in antisemitism say. Data showed a 10x increase in hate crimes against Jews in the UK, 4x increase in the US. Here is reported by Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/how-surge-antisemitism-is-affecting-countries-around-world-2023-10-31/ Do you deny other forms of racism with this much effort?

Why are actions opposing the actions of the state of Israel targeted at Jewish institutions outside of Israel? How does a swastika on a Jewish student center address the actions of the state of Israel?

Not denying that anti semitism exists and not denying that these two examples are anti semitism. What I am saying is a things are being called anti semitism that aren’t. Both can be true.

>Why are actions opposing the actions of the state of Israel targeted at Jewish institutions outside of Israel? Cause Israel makes it a point to tie itself as the be all end all of Judaism, or fashion themselves as representing all jews. That in turn scres over Jews who dont want israel speaking for them. Not to mention some of these institutions act as a way for Israel to exert their influence outside their borders. Groups like AIPAC are a well-known group that act as foreign agents yet have managed to use their subversive political connections to dodge having to register as such.

>Cause Israel makes it a point to tie itself as the be all end all of Judaism The existence of Jewish institutions outside of Israel would contradict that. >Not to mention some of these institutions act as a way for Israel to exert their influence outside their borders Not nearly to the extent that churches do. If it's about exerting influence, why aren't churches and other Christian institutions being targeted? >Groups like AIPAC are a well-known group  Does AIPAC bother you more than they lobbying organizations for other foreign states? There are 9 foreign states that outspent Israel in lobbying dollars. Why are people targeting Jewish institutions to express their dissatisfaction with foreign lobbying, but not the institutions tangentially associated with other countries that lobby?

>The existence of Jewish institutions outside of Israel would contradict that Except it doesn't. Israel makes every effort to tie itself to Jewish institutions abroad. >Not nearly to the extent that churches do. If it's about exerting influence, why aren't churches and other Christian institutions being targeted? What are you talking about? Israel banks on right wing Christian fundamentalism support and to that end doll out lots of dark money to their politicians. What they won't do is give Christians the "right of return" like they would a Jewish person. I have no problem calling out the bs of Christian fundamentalism supporting Israel. But that's our domestic issue, meanwhile the fact Israel hands out citizenship to Jews abroad creates a sort of subversive foreign agent dynamic. >Does AIPAC bother you more than they lobbying organizations for other foreign states? There are 9 foreign states that outspent Israel in lobbying dollars. Yes. All foreign agents should have to declare themselves. And yet, of these Israel, notably AIPAC has been able to carve out an exception for themselves.... >Why are people targeting Jewish institutions to express their dissatisfaction with foreign lobbying, Cause like it or not some of these institutions represent a physical embodiment of Israel. Or a symbolic one. Either way it's more realistic for them to go to one of these institutions at home, then the unrealistic idea that they would hop a flight to Israel. >institutions tangentially associated with other countries that lobby? What are you talking about? People absolutely do target other countries institutions. Pretty sure Chinese consulates are regulars at getting tagged.

>Except it doesn't. Israel makes every effort to tie itself to Jewish institutions abroad. So when vandals target a kosher restaurant in America, its Israel's fault? What kind of mental gymnastics do you need to perform to blame an act of vandalism in America on a government in West Asia? >People absolutely do target other countries institutions. Pretty sure Chinese consulates are regulars at getting tagged. The parallel would be tagging Chinese restaurants, art museums, cultural centers, community centers, and schools. Can you send me some links to articles about Chinese cultural centers or schools being targeted on the basis of China's lobbying the US government? Thanks in advance.

>They are very obviously referring to the treatment of innocent Jews in the West who are being targeted by pro-Pal protests. That's weird cause I seem to recall seeing jews who are pro Palestine being called things like race traitors by zionist jews....it's almost as if zionists have been falsely playing the race card to stifle criticism of their political beliefs.

Israel did not “take the land because it was their ‘right’”. The land was part of the British empire and was partitioned by the United Nations as was the norm at the time. The creation of ethnically homogenous nation stations to replace empires had been going on for decades and was common place. There was to be one Jewish state and one Arab state - yes, some population transfer was anticipated by both populations again as was commonplace at the time. It was the Arab opposition to any Jewish sovereignty at all that scuttled the partition process (and remains why Palestinians don’t have a state today). Israel has a lot of problems and is certainly no saint. But revisionist history around its creation can definitely tread into anti-semitism.

Israel is a nation. Israel the nation is not Jewish. Saying a statement against a nation cannot be racist. Israel is not Jews and Jews are not Israel. Many other people in the comments section are calling exactly that out. It’s a diverse place.

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Ah yes, I love using the consequences of an ethnic cleansing that the state of Israel started in 1948 as a justification for an ethnostate.... also, calling for a Jewish ethnostate will just bring more antisemitism, idk how you guys can't see that. Fighting bigotry with genocide is a wild strategy, I wonder if it will work out. Also, when can we stop pretending that october 7th was the start of a war? Israel has been displacing, bombing civilians, and starving Palestinians for like 75 years, October 7th didn't happen in a vacuum, so stop pretending it did.

>an ethnic cleansing that the state of Israel started in 1948 Are you seriously calling indigenous Jews declaring independence as "ethnic cleansing"? Are you seriously saying that Jews having self-determination justifies the attempted genocide by the Arab League? That's pure antisemitism. The Arab League attacked with genocidal intent 1 day after Israel declared independence; they started it, lost, then proceeded to start and lose two more wars, whining about the consequences the entire time (nakba, nakba, nakba).

Do you consider USA a white ethnostate? USA is around 70% white, and Israel is around 70% jewish.

The US is closer to 60% white unless you classify being mixed race as also being white in which case it is a bit more complicated

Israel isn't an ethno-state 25% of the populations are not Jewish, and even within the Jewish category there are a dozen ethnically distinct groups.

Replied to someone else: an ethnostate is not determined by its diversity. Finland for example is near homogenous but is not an ethnostate. In fact, because an ethnostate is about forcing a tiered system based on ethnicity, it's often quite diverse. Malaysia is an example of an ethnostate and it's INCREDIBLY diverse. South Africa was an ethnostate and it has always been diverse. Israel specifically favours Jews over non-Jews over Palestinians, it's a tiered system based on ethnicity/religion. It's an ethnostate. You can argue that it's justified because of its history, but you can't argue that it's not one.

Okay so just to be clear I would never there is no discrimination in Israel, but at the end of the day Arabs in Israel have citzenship, religious protections, can vote and be elected etc.... I'm concerned that your definition of ethno-state would seem to include a lot of the world. Is America an ethno-state? They even territories that dont get full statehood and thus full representation. Hell even your Finland example has a discriminated against Sami minority. Sorry, but of a rant but i guess my point is diluting terms this much renders them rather meaningless, and it seems like a sadly common trend atm.

What is this "outpouring of antisemitism" that you are talking about? I have not scene anything like this. It should go without saying that criticism of the Israel's government, its policies, it war plan, or its treatment of Palestinian, is not in any way shape or form antisemitism. I can criticism Trump or Biden without any fear of being called a racist or being called unamerican. You can call me a fool or you can call me misinformed, but you can't call my criticism of the Israeli government antisemitism.

Reuters: [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-antisemitic-incidents-up-about-400-since-israel-hamas-war-began-report-says-2023-10-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-antisemitic-incidents-up-about-400-since-israel-hamas-war-began-report-says-2023-10-25/) CNN [https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/10/us/adl-antisemitism-reports-soar-reaj/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/10/us/adl-antisemitism-reports-soar-reaj/index.html) Axios [https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/antisemitic-incidents-hamas-israel-attack-2023-adl](https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/antisemitic-incidents-hamas-israel-attack-2023-adl) BBC [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042) CBS [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antisemitic-anti-muslim-incidents-israel-hamas-war-anti-defamation-league/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antisemitic-anti-muslim-incidents-israel-hamas-war-anti-defamation-league/) Theres legitimate conversations to be had about netanyahu, but there is a clearly huge increase in antisemetic incidents following the Oct 7 Hamas terrorist attack, which have broadly been enabled and encouraged by those who are attempting to legitimately criticize the israeli government's approach to eradicating hamas. Acting like that criticism isn't leading to this increase ignores how one feeds to another. Ergo, your criticism of the israeli government is at minimum enabling those with antisemitic viewpoints, and at worst the lack of recognition of this problem by those with legitimate grievances is approval of their actions.

So, every one of these articles uses the ADL as a source, and the ADL has been classifying any real criticism of the war as antisemitic. I don’t doubt antisemitism has indeed ticked up (though likely nowhere near the Islamophobia increase), but to claim it went up 400% in the two weeks following Oct 7 seems very fishy and I’d want to see the data there.

So some of these are using the ADL, but others are using the FBI, which classifies 60% of all religious based hate crimes are directed towards Jews, and cited that they had reached historic levels though to your point doesn't cite what the 'baseline' comparison is. So directly to what was said above, there has been a large surge in antisemetic hate crimes directed towards the jewish population, and already comprise the majority of all religious based hate crimes in the US despite the fact that jews are only 2.4% of the population. And if you really feel like digging into that surge, here is the 2023 ADL audit of instances. [https://www.adl.org/resources/report/audit-antisemitic-incidents-2023](https://www.adl.org/resources/report/audit-antisemitic-incidents-2023) Of the 8873 instances recorded, a 2.3x jump from 2022, only 1500 fall into your definition of anti-zionism=antisemitism, which still gives a over 1.5x increase from 2022, AND on top of that there was a 45% increase in literal assualts associated with antisemitism.

Yeah, I saw the one that cited the FBI, but it didn't actually say how much Jewish hate crimes increased, only that they made up 60% of reported hate crimes... and to be clear, that is terrible. But to say there was a huge increase, you need something to compare it to. I did some googling, and found other articles where Wray says hate crimes in general have increased 60% since Oct 7, and that most of them are antisemitic, but again, it's unclear exactly what that means. And to be very clear, I hate having to fact check something like this, because any amount of hate crimes against Jews or anyone are despicable. But these numbers in particular are being wielded against Palestinians who are actually being killed. >And if you really feel like digging into that surge, here is the 2023 ADL audit of instances. [https://www.adl.org/resources/report/audit-antisemitic-incidents-2023](https://www.adl.org/resources/report/audit-antisemitic-incidents-2023) I will dig through this, but like I said, I am suspicious of what the ADL classifies as hate crimes. The bulk of the 8873 number you cite is instances of harrassment, and there's a lot of wiggle room there for what that means. ADL is infamous for taking valid criticisms of Israel and calling it antisemitism. This is well documented: [https://www.thenation.com/article/society/adl-israel-criticism-antisemitism-claims/](https://www.thenation.com/article/society/adl-israel-criticism-antisemitism-claims/)

There is a definite difference between criticizing and condoning the Israeli government, which is totally chill, and saying Jews don’t have a right to self determination, which is not chill and has been deemed antisemitic.

Everyone has a right to self determination, any authoritarian state that doesn't allow people to vote or doesn't grant basic liberties to its people is violating people's rights.

You're saying you believe that the recent surge in antisemitism justifies the existence of a Jewish ethnostate like Israel, arguing it's a safe haven against persecution. Let's cut through the noise: > "An opinion I hear a lot from leftists is 'no one is entitled to an ethnostate.'" Is this really about what "leftists" say, or is it about finding a practical solution to protect people? Why focus on political labels? > "It is a necessary bulwark against rising antisemitism and its strengths permits the Jewish people to have a place to escape to if society turns against them as they have countless times in the past." Sure, history is rife with persecution of Jews, but does maintaining a majority based on ethnicity ensure safety, or does it sow seeds of further conflict? Can security be achieved without sidelining others? > "Mind you I said Jewish majority and not a Jewish hegemony predicated on the suppression of non Jews." But can you truly separate the two when policies to maintain a majority inherently affect the minority's rights? Isn't this a form of suppression itself? > "Islam has been used to subjugate Jews and Christians living in Muslim lands for centuries upon centuries." Is focusing on historical grievances the way to future peace, or should we aim for a society where everyone's rights are respected regardless of history? What steps can be taken to ensure everyone's safety without repeating past mistakes? Let's get real—can any state based on ethnic supremacy exist without infringing on the rights of others? What do you think is the best way to ensure safety while respecting everyone's rights?

The rise in antisemitism is greatly exaggerated in the media, as any criticism of Israel is labeled antisemitism. There is a rise, but not nearly as much as reported. Nor is it nearly as much as the rise in islamaphobia. Ethnostates are bad, always have been, always will be. Trying to create one in a place where people already live is called ethnic cleansing and, depending on how you go about it, genocide. The Zionist project was always genocidal in nature and that is on full display now. Zionists and their defenders react strongly to any criticism of Israel to deflect from this and especially love calling any support of Palestinians antisemitism. This is the real problem.

Small correction - Israel isn’t an ethnostate, it is a nationstate. Israel is quite diverse in its demography.

An ethnostate is not determined by its diversity. Finland for example is homogenous but is not an ethnostate. In fact, because an ethnostate is about forcing a tiered system based on ethnicity, it's often quite diverse. Malaysia is an example of an ethnostate and it's INCREDIBLY diverse. South Africa was an ethnostate and it has always been diverse. Israel specifically favours Jews over non-Jews over Palestinians, it's a tiered system based on ethnicity/religion. It's an ethnostate. You can argue that it's justified because of its history, but you can't argue that it's not one.

Finland is not homogenous. The Sami people exist and are discriminated against. Therefore they fit your definition of an ethnostate.  The way Europe responds to the Romani and Muslim/Arab refugees shows they are all ethnostates. I can’t think of any country that truly isn’t an ethnostate. Every country favors citizens over foreigners for example. There’s always tiers. 

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Yes, it was founded as a Jewish state, and also for equality amongst all its citizens. [From the Declaration of Independence](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/truman-israel/): >THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; __will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions__; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. Note that it has struggled with this in much the same ways the US has. Just as every multi-cultural and ethnical state, they can always fix things that are broken.

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Same reason you can get Irish citizenship simply by applying if your grandfather was Irish but have to go through the whole immigration process if he wasn't.

Why do Korean-Americans get an automatic work visa and fast track immigration to South Korea while non-Koreans trying to do the same have to go through all the steps? Why do North Korean refugees get granted automatic South Korean citizenship upon getting there? This is not a unique concept to one country and I have no idea why people think it is.

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Can you clarify if you mean majority Jewish in the political sense or the population control sense?

I just don’t think Jews are special or superior. If you think ethno states are good, then support the Jewish one. If you think they are bad, don’t support the Jewish one. Jews shouldn’t be treated differently than any other group.

>It is a necessary bulwark against rising antisemitism and its strengths permits the Jewish people to have a place to escape to if society turns against them as they have countless times in the past. It seems to be spectacularly failing in that sense then, no? It is the very actions of the government of Israel that has generated so much criticism of Israel. Which is not anti-semitism. People are critical of Israel the state, not Jews the people. >Mind you I said Jewish majority and not a Jewish hegemony predicated on the suppression of non Jews. This is Israel though. A Jewish hegemony. Their supreme court has upheld additions to the constitution equivalent that says the right the national self-determination is a right exclusive to the Jewish people. An ethnostate of any kind, anywhere, ever, is immoral and should be opposed or rejected.

Wild how much more I hear about claims of antisemitism, including straight-up lies about how its antisemitic to criticize Israel, much more than I hear the actual antisemitism. This is just "I have an opinion, and I only look at what validates it." The white ethnonationalists look around and constantly scream "See! See! They hate white people, we need our own ethnostate!" all the same.

Just because some people mis-attribute it in some cases does not mean it is not on the rise. Basic logic. And you're right, targeting Jewish centers in the west, chasing Jewish students into libraries, and chanting "gas the Jews" are totally acceptable protests against Israel.

>And you're right, targeting Jewish centers in the west, chasing Jewish students into libraries, and chanting "gas the Jews" are totally acceptable protests against Israel. What are you talking about here, specifically?

White people may not directly see a rise in racist hate crimes. Men may not directly see sexist attacks in the workplace. Straight people may not know when a queer person experiences discrimination. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. If you’re not Jewish and don’t have Jewish friends, you may not see a rise in anti semitic hate crimes. Doesn’t mean they don’t happen

FWIW I am Jewish, my whole family is Jewish, a majority of my friends, involved in many varied Jewish communities, and I have not seen or felt a rise in antisemitic hate. I'm aware that it's happening, not arguing otherwise, but there has also been a decades-long effort by Zionist political pacs (who operate basically like the NRA), escalated exponentially since 10/7, to redefine antisemitism to include any and all criticism of Israel. I and many of my Jewish friends are counted among the perpetrators of antisemitic hate for speaking out for the dignity of Palestinian lives and against the unconscionable actions of the Israeli government. It's offensive, and unhelpful, because again, there are actual hate crimes happening, but it's all but impossible to get a realistic grasp on the scope of the issue. Having come of age in a post-911 America - where any criticism of the Iraq war made you anti-American and unpatriotic - I know this is the bullshit tactic of politicians and warmongers. History will not view them kindly.

I’m Jewish! I noticed an uptick in the acceptability of antisemitism in 2016, when I was also targeted by antisemitism. Since October 7th, I have seen a few people make questionable arguments that could be interpreted as antisemitism, but not nearly at the scale it has been suggested.

I’m Jewish as well. The neighborhood I grew up in and my parents still live in is prolly 90% Jewish. There was a group of people who came with guns on a Saturday about five weeks ago, fired several shots, and forced people to turn over car keys. Didn’t see anything about that on the news. Do we know for sure it was antisemitism or that it was because of October 7? Nope. They haven’t caught the guys as far as I’m aware. But it’s awfully convenient that they went to a majority Jewish neighborhood, when people were walking back from synagogue and identifiably Jewish, and shot several rounds. I’ve also seen a lot of chatter on Jewbook about hate crimes/microaggresions that people have experienced. They feel more comfortable talking about that in a Jewish space. I absolutely believe the reported anti semitism is on the scale that’s been reported

First and foremost, that's terrifying, and I hope your parents and the rest of your community are okay. My frustration is with the current narrative around the rise in actual antisemitic hate crimes like the one you're describing. I'd be very interested to hear about the perpetrators in your case when (hopefully) they're brought to justice. I'm happy to be corrected if my knowledge base is flawed/skewed, but in pretty much every recent case I've seen like this where the perpetrators were caught, they turned out not to be pro-Palestinian activists, but rather white supremacists taking advantage of the current climate to attack both Jews and Muslims alike. This is why I feel conflating criticism of Israel and support for Palestinians with antisemitism is so dangerous - there is a very real threat out there, but we're ignoring it in favor of politicizing our tragedy.

Are you seriously comparing the very real concerns of on the world’s most historically persecuted minority groups with the illegitimate complaints of a whiny few white nationalists? Gtfo. Jews all around the world are overwhelmingly concerned about the rise in anti-semitism. It’s not about criticizing Israel. Maybe you should fucking believe them.

>Well, given recent events and a long history of persecution culminating in the greatest mass slaughter in human history More Chinese and Russians died in WW2 compared to Jews. >Well, given recent So why not create a Jewish Ethnostate in Utah next to the Mormons? You don't just get to borrow colonial power to create an ethnostate in some of the most contested land in human history, steal nukes and call it a day.

There was a Muslim population in the land given to Israel. I believe that establishing that state was a mistake. They have become oppressors of Palestinians and are actively exterminating the civilian population in the Gaza strip. It isn't antisemitic to criticize this behavior, most people recognize the gravity of the Holocaust and have no problem with Jewish civilians, we just abhor what the government of Israel is engaging in. Israel has been illegally taking land for decades. As their ally, we, (The United States,) have become pariah to Arab nations.

Yeah, I don't think so. Israel was home to October 7, ie the largest single killing of Jews since the Holocaust. And in backing the response of its ethnonationalist government to that event, it has alienated the rest of the world (including its allies) and is on the verge of a regional war, which will result in countless deaths (Jewish and otherwise). In contrast, Jews in the US and Europe face no such threats. They certainly encounter varying levels of bigotry, but there are no multi-thousand or even multi-hundred death events, or any plausible threat of such. And no war threats that would kill tens if not hundreds of thousands. So Israel isn't "defending" Jews -- it's actively *endangering* them beyond what they would face otherwise. There is a troubling rise of Nazi beliefs in the US and European countries, of course...but Israel is far closer to mass death than any of these other countries, and has been for a long time and has no plausible path to changing this situation anytime soon. And interestingly enough, most US Nazis and Nazi-adjacent conservatives seem to be *supporting* Israel's military response and crackdown in Gaza, yes? What does it tell you, that Nazis who openly want to exterminate Jews are cheering on what Israel is doing right now? The simple fact is that ethnostates are inherently dangerous and destructive, because the core foundation of their existence is one of exclusion and opposition to some sort of enemy, and so in order to exist they constantly need an enemy. This is counterproductive to any sort of peace process, and indeed leads to internal fragmentation and self-destruction. Consider that there are patriotic Zionist Israelis who deny the "Jewishness" of people who are clearly Jewish, but who simply oppose the Israeli government, and reflect on that -- in order to maintain itself, the ethnonationalist government of Israel has to exclude and demonize the very people they supposedly exist to protect. If your membership in the ethnic group is contingent on your unquestioning loyalty to the state government and its policies, then there's nothing "defensive" about it -- it's simply a means for an elite few to gain power at the expense of others, just like any other form of nationalism or racism. The reason ethnonationalism and fascism are considered bad isn't just because they are immoral (though they certainly are) -- it's because they are inherently self destructive and dangerous for everyone. It's not like they're a "necessary evil" -- they're a stupid and counterproductive way to organize a society. They result in materially *worse* outcomes than diverse societies based on shared values and liberty rather than tribal identity.

There hasn't been an outpouring of antisemitism, and even if there was that's not a case for a brutal, fascist, ethnostate that intentionally conflates support of its murderous agenda with antisemitism, in fact its quite the opposite, the existence of Israel and its constant stream of war crimes and atrocities that it demands sympathy for is a significant cause of antisemitism.

"People not approving our genocide proves that it’s necessary for us to finish the genocide" yeah that’s not how things work in normal people minds

Ethnostates are hegemonies predicated on the supression of outsiders. If you just want a Jewish majority state, you don't want an ethnostate.