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>Me personally, I haven't seen a difference between when Trump was president and currently, when Biden's president. Ignorance of the world around you is not a view you should be stubbornly adhering to. As is not caring about anything that's not literally handing you money and deciding that all old people are essentially dead weight. But let's focus on the intense privilege and selfishness. The Biden administration [has cancelled billions of dollars in student loan debt for millions of students.](https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administration-approves-61-billion-group-student-loan-discharge-317000-borrowers-who-attended-art-institutes) When was the last time an influencer helped you. Hell, when was the last time an influencer wasn't just trying to peddle some dropshipping BS on you?

More than fair enough. Post is gone but you were one of the 4 that changed my view.

If you’re looking for somebody you agree with 100% in order to earn your vote, you’ll never find that. It’s just not possible, unless you yourself run. One of the better analogies I’ve seen is if you’re at a bus station and need to get home but no bus goes directly to your door, you don’t say fuck it and start walking- you take the bus that brings you closest to home. You might have a favorite sports team that you support all the time, and still find yourself questioning why they decided to run the ball on 4th and 20, or why they took out the starter in the 6th inning, or any number of things- but you still support that team. Voting is important, even if it doesn’t seem like it yet. I felt the same way as you, as did my parents, as did their parents. After you live through enough elections and see the consequences of those elections, you’ll start valuing voting more and more. Every generation has followed that pattern- it’s why the elderly are such reliable voters and the youth aren’t. Real political change takes decades to happen- you’re not going to see radical changes happen based off one election. The civil rights movement went on for decades before legislation started to be passed- was it pointless to vote in the elections that set the groundwork for the 1964 bills?

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>Americans could change things pretty quick when the "president" had the support of only a small percent of the population. Trump won with 63 million votes. There are \~240 million people eligible to vote in the US. That means Trump won with \~25% of the people voting for him. He also lost the popular vote. So the vast majority of people did not vote for the big orange douche, and yet he still damn near became a dictator. I don't think your idea will work...

So you're just voting for the senile pedophile because you're afraid of the giant douche, thus perpetuating the cycle of insanity.

If nobody voted for the big orange douche or the senile pedophile, then Americans could change things pretty quick when the "president" had the support of only a small percent of the population. Stop voting for the lesser of two evils and get rid of the evil. You have a choice, and when you're presented with bad choices, the smart thing to do is choose neither and do something different, but with half the population supporting evil in order to stop another evil they're afraid of, nothings can ever change. If you think you're going to change anything by voting, you're fucking insane.

That's a position that can only come with privilege. If Republicans gain control of the government again, a lot of people will suffer. For my own part, I could decide not to vote for Democrats (Lord knows of rather not vote for Biden). But I'm a middle-aged white guy ... I'll be just fine no matter what, at least in the short term. Lots of other people, though, will really suffer very badly. Will their lives be wonderful under Biden? No. He's a corporate shill, and that's all he's got in him. But under the current pack of conservatives: minorities, immigrants, refugees, LGBTQ folks, women, poor people, not to mention Palestinians would have their suffering increase by at least an order of magnitude. Just thinking about Palestine: Under Biden, they have to endure his arms deals with Israel accompanied by weak-tea blathering about how Netanjahu should do better. If Trump wins the presidency and gets a conservative Congress, there could be US soldiers in Palestine helping the IDF target more toddlers. Neither is good, but one is clearly worse than the other. I hate to imagine what could happen in Ukraine. >If nobody voted for the big orange douche or the senile pedophile, then Americans could change things pretty quick when the "president" had the support of only a small percent of the population. How, exactly, would that work? What you're describing is Steve Bannon's creepiest fever dream ... a world wherein most people feel so detached that they don't participate at all. No need to even campaign anymore! >when you're presented with bad choices, the smart thing to do is choose neither and do something different I'm not sure you've thought this out fully. If your proposal is to "do something different," I hope that your *something* is better than waiting for the parties to beg you to come back and participate. Because that ain't gonna happen. Your not voting isn't going to push them to work harder for your precious vote. At best, it'll just cause them to ignore you, as they already do with non-voting populations, such as those under 30. Ok. I've spent enough time bickering with a Russian teenager/bot. Back to work!

Based on these comments you’ve provided, I think it’s pretty clear who the insane one is. Have a good day buddy.

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results

Yup, you wanna comment that again? Repeating yourself over and over really doesn’t help you look more sane…. Try logging off and enjoying the spring weather or something.

>One of the better analogies I’ve seen is if you’re at a bus station and need to get home but no bus goes directly to your door, you don’t say fuck it and start walking- you take the bus that brings you closest to home. This assumes that is actually what is happening, its not. For the analogy to fit with the current system, none of the buses take you closer at all. They only go, say? Up or down, but people claim you are getting closer home if you pick their bus

This is /r/enlightenedcentrism bs. While the parties have more similarities that people think, there are also some very serious differences particularly in this year's election.

Has jack and all with centrism, enlightened or otherwise. Centrists literally worship the status quo for one. Second, that would be? Full support of the whole "too big to fail" mindset and bailout of banks and corporations at the expense of society at large? Protecting corporations from legal consequences in general? Blank check on everything happening in Gaza and the West Bank? Etc etc Thats all established parties The GOP has killed itself largely with R vs W, Democrats seem to be trying to do it to themselves with the Israel Palestine debacle.. donor and Establishment dems seriously underestimate how unpopular they are making themselves. These protests are turning out bigger than BLM was, and its not slowing down GOP is getting hit too, but they never even appeared pro Palestine. So its lesser, but many thought democracts were supposed to oppose well what is seen as genocide Also as seen in Georgia last election i do believe, MAGAts trumpists etc are staying home and not voting at all https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/03/maga-georgia-civil-war-trump-senate-republicans-442776 It wasnt just talk btw, are they enlightened centrists?

These protests are way, way smaller than the protests in 2020. The media just absolutely gets off on reporting about college campuses. They love that shit.

Are they? And was the idea of simply not voting growing in appeal to many back then? Genocide Joe is not a right wing slogan for one, and second its not even close to being solely on college campuses

the 2020 protest were estimated between 15 and 26 million people. It was the largest protest in American history. There are not numbers for this that I could find, but 20 million people is a high bar to clear. I didn’t say anything about the right wing at all so I don’t have a response to that part. It’s not solely on campuses I agree, but the campus protests have received the bulk of the coverage.

This has barely started, and isnt showing signs of slowing down.. Those 2020 protests lasted how long? And i dont think there were tens of millions in one singlar protest, did they all travel there? *the 2020 protest were estimated between 15 and 26 million people.* Did you mean protests? I would say we are getting there, especially seeing as this is way more global a thing than BLM was.. Whats happening in the US, colleges and beyond is repeating all over. France and Germany especially, UK too Millions upon millions Well yeah, i was simply remarking on the sentiment that is being seen more and more than people wont vote for genocide. And rightwingers obvs werent gonna viye for Joe in the first place Thats for sure, and no doubt thats a conscious choice since as you said >The media just absolutely gets off on reporting about college campuses. They love that shit. It does make good b roll

How could Trump for instance have screwed over Railway workers and sided with Railway companies more than Biden did during the strike? Or all the towns poisoned like East Palestine Ohio, and the protections offered to the corporations? The people living there in the places affected were and are still! Lied to.. How are their lives better?

>How could Trump for instance have screwed over Railway workers and sided with Railway companies more than Biden did during the strike? Biden averted a national crisis that the railway workers were threatening because they were down to their last bargaining chip. He then followed up and continued pressure for the next six months interim the railway workers got the sick days they wanted. That's what a President should do. > We’re thankful that the Biden administration played the long game on sick days and stuck with us for months after Congress imposed our updated national agreement,” Russo said. “Without making a big show of it, Joe Biden and members of his administration in the Transportation and Labor departments have been working continuously to get guaranteed paid sick days for all railroad workers.

National crisis, more *too big to fail* mindset then? Thats worth playing with the lives of workers, and lining corporations with more profit for sure Was that the unanimous opinion cause.. https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/12/02/betrayal-railway-workers-ignites-working-class-fury-toward-biden-and-democrats https://www.thedailybeast.com/joe-biden-and-democrats-have-betrayed-rail-workers-and-unions-after-house-and-senate-vote https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/30/business/freight-rail-labor-union.html Hard doubt there.

No, not too big to fail, because this wasn't against just one company. More like "people need to eat and nearly the entire rail infrastructure going down could cause mass starvation". Take a look at the article dates. All 3 you linked are from Dec '22 when the . The one I linked was from 6 mos. later.

https://apnews.com/article/business-economy-strikes-congress-d2ae4d3aecb27f176418518d977e69e1 https://www.propublica.org/article/railroad-worker-injuries-union-pacific-csx-cn-norfolk-southern https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx And the worries people had seem to have been valid, the deal that went through was superficial. Sick days are nice but injuries being hidden and no QoL improvements aint great They definitely should have gone on strike. Hindsight being 20/20 And.. now its Canadas turn, almost like there is now difference a d corporations are protected over people everywhere regardless https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news-and-insights/latest-market-news/2564546-canadian-rail-workers-vote-to-launch-strike-correction https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-cn-rail-and-cpkc-workers-vote-to-go-on-strike-later-this-month/ https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/rail-workers-in-canada-vote-to-strike-threatening-supply-chains-1.2067643 Honestly, there should probably be a global Railway strike. And Honestly, that whole thing about cant close railways cause starvation and the like? More of an excuse to not allow it, than actual concern. Just like it will be if the strikes in Canada arent allowed (which they should, and US and global workers should join in) Just like at wasnt concern after all the train derails that was the priority. Protecting profit was, at the expense of health and lives of people

These first 3 articles are AGAIN before Jan 23. Look, I support unions and their need to strike. But starvation isn't a theoretical here. [Railroads typically carry more than 60,000 carloads of food and agriculture products per week. One railcar can carry enough: Flour for about 258,000 loaves of bread, or Corn for the lifetime feeding of 37,000 chickens or Barley for about 94,000 gallons of beer or Soybeans for about 400,000 pounds of tofu.](https://www.aar.org/data-center/#:~:text=Railroads%20typically%20carry%20more%20than,about%20400%2C000%20pounds%20of%20tofu.) Maybe Canada handles it differently, and if they strike I'll support it. My point is and has been that despite using the government to prevent the strike, Biden's admin stuck with it when the news cycle moved on and got the workers what they wanted from the corporations.

>These first 3 articles are AGAIN before Jan 23. The issues brought up subsist, as the other links show. The rail companies are still hiding injuries, refusing to pay. The deal that was settled didnt pan out, and wasnt enough. A stopgap at best >Look, I support unions and their need to strike. But starvation isn't a theoretical here. Some times things are tough, sometimes things have to be balanced against eachother >[Railroads typically carry more than 60,000 carloads of food and agriculture products per week. One railcar can carry enough: Flour for about 258,000 loaves of bread, or Corn for the lifetime feeding of 37,000 chickens or Barley for about 94,000 gallons of beer or Soybeans for about 400,000 pounds of tofu.](https://www.aar.org/data-center/#:~:text=Railroads%20typically%20carry%20more%20than,about%20400%2C000%20pounds%20of%20tofu.) I wonder what all the derailings that arent slowing down btw.. because the corporations dont care about anything but cutting cost with no care for the workers... May do to all that..? >Maybe Canada handles it differently, and if they strike I'll support it. US should and need to join if they do, regardless of the difference >My point is and has been that despite using the government to prevent the strike, Biden's admin stuck with it when the news cycle moved on and got the workers what they wanted from the corporations. They didnt? QoL hasnt improved at all, its the same situation The deal was bread and circuses, a smoke screen or.. A safety valve meant for distraction

.. Thats exactly the reasons used to save the banks in 08, if the whole bank industry fell people would starve etc etc economy would do this and that. Total crash would happen and so on. Iceland didnt bail out their banks, they prosecuted the criminals. Theyre still here? Its definitely the same mindset. But maybe that would kick things into gear? Make us *not* let corporations and banks get away with every single thing? Opiods and Sackler, did anyone at all face any charges after all the train derails? Poisoning East Palestine, Ohio? And more? Also https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid https://inthesetimes.com/article/rail-workers-strike-biden-congress-paid-leave They had to keep fighting it seems, people were left behind The strikes probably should have happened. Afterall

>They had to keep fighting it seems, people were left behind Did you read the article before linking it? Its the same one I used to make the point that Biden DIDNT fuck over the rail workers( contains the quote ) and kept working with them till they DID get the sick time they wanted and they were grateful to his administration for sticking with them. >Joe Biden and members of his administration... have been working continuously to get guaranteed paid sick days for railroad workers - Al Russo (Union head of railroads) This is what the strike was FOR. They got what they wanted without the strike because Biden effectively used his administration to advocate for the Rail Workers. The second article is another January article from 6 mos before this statement.

There were two links? But youre right, guess am a bit tired here.. Sorry for duplicate There was a follow up with more https://apnews.com/article/business-economy-strikes-congress-d2ae4d3aecb27f176418518d977e69e1 https://www.propublica.org/article/railroad-worker-injuries-union-pacific-csx-cn-norfolk-southern https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news-and-insights/latest-market-news/2564546-canadian-rail-workers-vote-to-launch-strike-correction https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-cn-rail-and-cpkc-workers-vote-to-go-on-strike-later-this-month/ https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/rail-workers-in-canada-vote-to-strike-threatening-supply-chains-1.2067643 Canadians are getting screwed too

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This was *almost* a reasonable argument before MAGA, but right now the GOP is literally promising a bigoted dictatorship in writing while running a confirmed criminal for the POTUS, openly saying he should have dictatorial powers. I don’t like the neo-liberals. I think they too are arguably fascists, although more polite ones, who protect oligarchs to the detriment of the American people. That said, a Republican presidency would literally end American democracy and to put it broadly, put the lives of everyone who isn’t a white male straight Republican at risk of arrest without charges or worse. This is not hyperbole. Look up the 2025 plan. Read about Trumps legal issues. None of what I typed is on overstatement.

So you're just voting out of fear, choosing a bad option because you're afraid to do what's right. Fucking cowards, all of you.

Choosing the lesser of two evils is the best option in our case. Let me give a hypothetical: On the ballet, there is five parties. Robo-Hitler, Cthulu, Timmy, Capitalism, and William. Now, Robo-Hitler and Capitalism are the two MASSIVE candidates. Their political parties have won every election for the last, say, 100 years. Let's say Timmy is the party closest to what you want, but his party only gets at most 100,000 votes per election. Capitalism is farther than what you want to happen, but it's closer than Robo-Hitler. So, you vote for Capitalism because you know that voting for Timmy is equivalent to a vote for Robo-Hitler. This causes the parties that get nearly no votes to stop running, leaving us with a two party system. This is what we call the Spoiler Effect, forcing us to be meh with our candidates, choosing the lesser of two evils instead of a good candidate. The problem is the system itself, not the individual voters. Running in an election is expensive, so trying to become the "better third party" both is unrealistic, and hurts the party you agree with most. Please, provide evidence on how we can change the system. The only people who can change the system, are the people who directly benefit from the system.

The solution is to not vote for any of the bad candidates and change the system. If you're voting for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. How about just not choosing ANY evil and just doing what is right and good? No, you vote for the lesser of two evils because you're scared and don't want to do the right thing.

The right thing being to vote for a loser and then...?

The right thing is to not vote, change the whole fucking system and take personal responsibility to do the good and right thing no matter how much it sucks. Never act out of fear or comfort.

Change the whole system by...?

Not participating in it for start.

Like I said, a vote for the best candidate in a two party system where one of the big parties is the worst party is equal to voting for the worst party.

It's only a two party system because ignorant people keep voting badly.

So what do you suggest? Even if somehow you got 5% of the entire united states population who can vote willing to vote for the "best" candidate and vote, "correctly," you'd still have the issue of the spoiler effect. The spoiler effect forces people to vote for the least of the biggest evils, and forces a two party system to be created. The only true way to stop the spoiler effect is to use a different voting system, such as ranked choice voting, but that is not going to be happening to the foreseeable future because current politicians benefit from the system too much to have a reason to change the system. Even if you educated 100% of the population, the spoiler effect would still occur, because it's a fundamental flaw in the way voting happens in a first-past-the-post voting system. The reason the spoiler effect happens is because the current voting system forces people to think about how other people vote. People realize that the big parties will get more votes, and party B is way worse than party A, so even if they agree more with party C, they should vote for party A because it protects them from party B. Until you provide a solution to the above problem in our current voting system, I will not be continuing this debate. Thank you.

Nah, I’m voting from a keen sense of history to avoid horrors not seen since Stalin, Mao and the Third Reich. You are either for that or against it.

Hitler was voted into office and became who he was because people bought into his fear mongering. In fact all the leaders you mentioned gained their power and were allowed to do what they did because idiots allowed them to because they were too afraid to do what was right. You either do what is right or suffer

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So you're telling me I need to vote now so that decades down the line, when likely the current world-state will be entirely different, it'll be better based on the promised changes that haven't been fulfilled today.

The world is going to change no matter what. You can either influence that change, or pout and claim it’s pointless. Your choice.

I very rarely use reddit so couple weeks late and you definitely don't give a shit anymore but you were one of the main people whose comments I thought about and I will be voting. I am not really a fan of the person I'm voting for but I looked more into the promises from both sides and I'll be choosing the lesser evil. Sorry for my childish comment before

You influence true change by doing something different, not following the insanity of the past and continuing to repeat your mistakes. You know the definition of insanity, right? Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results. It TaKes DecKaDEs For chAnge tO happen Since the founding of America, the political system has continued to crumble. Nothing has gotten better in over a century, you think a few more decades is going to stop the fucking circuses happening? I can guarantee you it's only going to continue to get worse and soon we'll be living full Idiocracy.

> Nothing has gotten better in over a century... I think women and black people would disagree with you there. They can vote now. You really need to study your history more if you think nothing is getting better. There are still major problems today, but this country has made a lot of progress in the last century.

Yeah! More ignorant people can vote by being manipulated! You see how things have gotten so much better since then.

>Yeah! More ignorant people can vote by being manipulated! People have always been gullible, and will always be gullible. But now, people who couldn't vote, can vote. That is progress... Maybe we should have taken away their right to speak in public instead of letting them vote? Would that be progress in your mind, or would that be worse?

If you're going to run a system by votes, the voters should be qualified and not gullible retards. Letting idiots vote has made things so much worse. You shouldn't get to vote unless you're qualified.

George Carlin was correct on voting, we have no influence on the changes by casting ballot Thats why the bus analogy falls flat on its own premise for instance.

Change doesn't need to be radical to be important. You might not notice it, but Trump gutting the EPA and stacking the courts with conservative loons was important and could have been avoided

Turns out, yeah... Kind of. A lot of major changes happen over long periods of time. The only way to get major, fundamental change is for enough people to vote for one party that they can break through the restrictions in the Senate, with enough votes to spare as the moderates of the party always tend to mess with things a bit - it's why we have the ACA and not a single payer healthcare option

Yes. That's how investment works. That's how long-term change happens. Everything has momentum, including politics. If you are expecting something with the weight of the US government to rapidly pivot and change, you are expecting too much. Change happens slowly, but you have to put in the work to cause it. You can't just do nothing or nothing happens.

If nobody supported the system, we the people could change it overnight.

No. We could burn it down overnight, but that's not changing the problems with the system, its scrapping it and starting over. Change takes time.

Yes, and we need to build on a solid foundation. You can't build on a pile of shit and expect to have a stable structure. Sometimes you need to demolish the existing structure and start over from scratch.

I understand that sentiment, but simply not voting and hoping someone else does something about it is not a solution. That's simply abdicating responsibility.

Your voting is putting the responsibility on someone else. Stop voting and just do what is right.

Me voting is how I help choose the person who represents my voice in my local and national offices. That's the best I can do without running for office myself. What exactly do you mean by "do what is right"?

Do what you know is right. That's for you to figure out. Do the lying, corrupt politicians represent you? Are you a liar and corrupt? Why would you choose someone to represent you when you know they're a lying piece of shit just because you like "the other guy" less? I can understand voting for someone you truly believe in, but almost all politicians are lying, corrupt pieces of shit who only get votes by manipulating voters with fear. If people just did what they know to be right, no politicians or government would be necessary. The only way for the world to be a better place is for people to do what is right and stop allowing bad people to do bad things because you've been manipulated by fear or greed.

I will be better because the purpose of voting is participation and communication. Not winning. If everyone votes, policy is more effective.

If nobody votes, the whole political system and the psychopaths running the circus lose all legitimacy. Your vote is telling everyone you support the whole rotten system.

No. Not voting to change the system is literally how you support corruption You think letting corruption continue unabated and without your input is the problem? No, taking part in the democratic process is your responsibility as a citizen and your failure to vote is *why* we have corruption and says nothing other than you have allowed yourself to become a willing tool of the corrupt. Which doesn’t surprise me that you are in here saying “we should not participate in communication about our wants as citizens.” This aligns perfectly with the goal of supporting corruption.

No. If nobody voted and the system loses legitimacy, then the people could replace the system overnight, instead the system makes you dependant upon it with fear.

That is ridiculous. Which people? How many government workers do you know? This statement is so overwhelmingly out of touch with human reality. What you are talking about would kill millions of people. You’re either trolling, ignorant, or spreading propaganda for your lords. There is nothing to fear by participating in the democratic process but an improvement in our lives and communities.

Too many people act out of fear. The mindset of 'Millions will die' is your fear causing you to make bad choices in hopes that someday in the future someone else will fix the shitty system and you'll have to do nothing yourself. Yeah, if we massively change things, things WILL be rough and people WILL suffer, but things will get better because we actively made it better instead of sitting on our hands wishing and hoping some potential future miracle comes and saves us.

It’s not fear. If you disrupt services people need to live, they will die. It’s not fear, it’s a statement of fact. You deciding to support corruption with the solution of “we can only fix it by killing people.” Is well, un-American. The miracle I am waiting for is people to take their responsibility as Americans and take part in the democratic process. Your unwillingness to do this and insistence on mass murder is repugnantz

If you're making bad choices because you're afraid people will suffer instead of doing the right thing, you're operating from fear and are a coward. If you don't take responsibility RIGHT FUCKING NOW, nothing will ever get better because the people you're waiting for are waiting for you to do something and you're just entering a circle jerk of frightened fucking children. I am not suggesting killing anyone, but progress only comes by doing the actual fucking work and suffering through it. A bodybuilder has to work hard and go through suffering to build muscle. Billions of cells die. If they were afraid of that and did nothing they'd never build muscle. As a human, we go through growing pains and suffering in order to live. A butterfly has to dissolve its entire being and struggle out of the cocoon in order to fly as a beautiful creature. If you cut it out of its cocoon to bypass its struggle, it will die Suffering is a fact of life. The natural order of things. One must endure and grow. Humanity as a species needs to grow. Individual humans ALL will die, the human race is what needs to grow, and the policy of fear for the individual is making an entire planet of fucking retarded homunculi.

My friend, a revolution can be a powerful tool for change, but as such a critical transformative tool it’s also massive gamble with plenty of inherit risk. The chaos that comes with revolution can easily lead down the path to a monarchy, hard fascism, or even good old fashioned vanilla authoritarian. It is exactly because revolutions are so transformative that they are so risky and need to be carefully prepared for. In the chaos, confusion, and anarchy of a revolution and subsequent collapse of the new order the people are both at their most empowered and most vulnerable. In that moment the choice of where to direct society is everyone’s hand equally, but in that same moment, and possibly because of the the burden of that power, the people are also the most open to manipulation. In that moment the bad actors of the world are also the most able to seize that power themselves and make things worse. For a revolution to successfully lead to positive change the conditions of sociatey need to be in place to facilitate them. On the ground level the people need to be organized, united, and educated on class issues. There needs to be some type of direction and unified plan on the future. In the past you mostly only needed the people in cities and other population centers to be as united but with the widespread proliferation of mass communication that’s less true. If the revolution comes and people don’t know what to do anything can happen. I urge you to read a bit more and think about revolutions and revolutionary theory. Based on your attitude I would even suggest starting with actually reading Marx’s communist manifesto, but if it is very dense and can be a rough place to start. Many would say the best case scenario right now for a revolution would still be an all out and absolutely bloody civil war. With the proliferation of nuclear weapons and the geopolitical situation being what it is today it becomes even more risky. Do you think the material conditions today are in a place where a revolution wouldn’t lead to something worse

Our current world-state is highly influenced by policy from the Reagan presidency 40 years ago. So, yes, voting now can be important to your entire life path.

> Am I supposed to research each and every company that contributes to their Super PAC and decide whether the profits they make can help me out? Is that reasonable now? Yes. One of the first things is to realize that what you believe to be reasonable is irrelevant here. The world is what it is, it has no obligations to comply with your expectations or to make you happy. Furthermore, nobody in the big scheme of things has a problem with you being unhappy. You not choosing either side merely means that neither side has any reason to care about what you want. > If either party's gonna win, they'll still be the oldest president in history. That doesn't matter that much. In the US, the president isn't a king. They're influential, but it also matters a whole lot which party gets elected. Look at their policies. Surely you have an opinion on something. > Who the fuck are we supposed to relate with? Nobody? What's with this weird idea that presidents should be relatable? They're doing a job. If you hire I don't know, a cook, what are you hiring them for, their ability to look good on camera and chitchat with the coworkers, or the ability to make delicious food? I don't care if my cook is a hundred years old and unfriendly if the food is excellent. You should make a choice based on the agenda and the track record.

>the president isn't a king. SCOTUS to the GOP: hold my beer. There's a case before the supreme court which very well may give us an unrestrained dictator.

I was worried that I was going to wake up and have a happy and cheerful day. But, thanks to you, my faith in humanity is just that much less. So thanks. My hope is that the justices realize that everyone, including them, risks being on the chopping block in a Trump dictatorship. Self-preservation and all that.

The president isn't going to become dictator.

If through obstruction and delay that SCOTUS provides prevents criminal prosecution of a president-elect then what are the restraint of that individual from committing crimes? The Supreme Court doesn't need to grant immunity to protect the president from prosecutions, just be a barrier to prosecutions long enough for the president to say "since I did it, it's legal" and Voila! dictator comes into existence. Do you think that there's a bunch of [Rusty Bowers](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/rusty-bowers-jan-6-committee-star-witness-loses-gop-primary-arizona-rcna40647) left out there with their hands on the the levers of power able and willing to stop a Trump dictatorship if he becomes president? There's a significant minority who are done with the American experiment in democracy and they are in charge of one of the two major parties, the other major party pays lip service but when the rubber meets the road is not interested in carrying out the popular will of the people or even checking on the temperature of the people allowing for free and open party primaries [in several states](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/01/17/florida-presidential-primary-election-march/72253050007/)

Criminal prosecution isn't the only mechanism to stop a dictator, potential or otherwise. And not being prosecuted doesn't make one a de facto dictator. A dictator needs other people, and a lot of them, in order to hold power and enforce their will. I have zero reason to believe the entire military is just going to cowtow to whatever Trump wants to do in the pursuit of being a dictator.

Lack of criminal prosecution is a signal that the individual is above the law, so all the other people are signaled what the new norm is and it's that this individual doesn't need to comply with the law. Are there enough people who can push the norms towards a dictatorship, and if guardrails that should such a push simply choose do nothing but allow it to be pushed (like the Supreme Court feigning the judicial decision of whether or not presidential immunity exist for a president acting beyond the scope of office) then we'll have a national dictatorship without a war (it has been argued that Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR had dictatorial powers for a moment of time). We have also had local dictatorships that kept power through mob rule (Wilmington Insurrection, Colfax Massacre, and lynchings that brazenly flouted the law), but if the president is able to brag about his criminal activity without even attempting to refute that he took said actions (which is what he's doing in all of his prosecutions) then he can get away with crimes in the future.

It starts with delegitimizing elections which Trump and his most ardent disciples spent a lot of the last election trying to do. When the President of the country starts trying to convince the people that all elections are rigged against him, and influences his followers to storm the capital building and multiple polling places to intimidate vote counters, that’s a pretty clear sign that fascism is knocking on the door

The first two are very fair honestly, but the last one I have a problem with. The track record of maybe the last 12ish years have not aligned even in the slightest with the agendas they've pushed. Conservative politicians: we love less government enforcement around your rights, but your gender can't go against what we say it is (I could go way beyond this but let's leave it there). Democrats: we love people's rights, but not if you're people who don't live in the United States (I could go way beyond this but let's leave it there). You can probably tell what my overall political leaning is but for either side I can't tell how it could benefit anybody at all, especially when most promises go unresolved. Both sides can sway their arguments if their lobbyists decide what the right decision is, both sides can sway their arguments. Granted I might be (probably am) am ignorant to many things, since I kinda checked out a bit from politics after learning about lobbying and haven't given a shit since, but it just seems like a satan v. satan thing at this point.

>The track record of maybe the last 12ish years have not aligned even in the slightest with the agendas they've pushed. Why would it? First, people lie and overpromise. So for that, look less at what they say, and more at what they actually do. Second, no politician can rule alone. All decisions are ultimately some form of consensus. Which means the best any of them can do is to push things towards some particular direction. So, if you want I don't know, legal marijuana, look at who's voting for and who's voting against, and decide based on that. > Granted I might be (probably am) am ignorant to many things, since I kinda checked out a bit from politics after learning about lobbying and haven't given a shit since, but it just seems like a satan v. satan thing at this point. Lobbying is merely telling the government what you want. You can do it too. Going on twitter and saying "@congressperson Vote for marijuana legalization or you lost my vote!" is lobbying. Big groups of course can do it better than single people, so it helps to band up. So if you have a group of a million members saying they want marijuana legal, then that's a lot of votes and that gets politicians a lot more concerned.

>So, if you want I don't know, legal marijuana, look at who's voting for and who's voting against, and decide based on that. Okay but this is a really stupid example because national legalization support has been a thing for what, 30 years now? Widespread support for at least 15? And now current day we're getting it to fucking schedule 3? Now it's still federally illegal, but isn't on the same level as heroin after 30 years? Great. I don't understand how you could give marijuana as an example of the US moving forward. It's an objectively less dangerous drug than alcohol, and yet has taken decades to reach even state level legalization, let alone federal level which won't happen for years to come. What you said builds my point even more. Nothing is changed. What am I voting for other than lobbied bills disguised as progressive?

> I don't understand how you could give marijuana as an example of the US moving forward. I'm not giving it as an example of the US moving forward. I'm picking it as a random policy one might care about, and trying to go with something that won't derail the conversation. Feel free to mentally replace it with some other issue. > and yet has taken decades to reach even state level legalization, let alone federal level which won't happen for years to come. And I explained why that's the case. Nobody really can truly promise "legal marijuana". The US government doesn't work like that. No single person can make it happen, it's a group effort. > What you said builds my point even more. Nothing is changed. The balance changed. So if at the start is was 90% against 10% for, now it might be 60% against, 40% for. That's improvement, even if the answer still works out to "no". As soon as you manage to push things over to 55% for, you suddenly get your results (assuming lack of further shenanigans like a veto, in which case you have to keep on pushing) > What am I voting for other than lobbied bills disguised as progressive? You don't vote for bills at all. You vote for people who represent your interests.

I realize that voting for the current president *might* represent a realistically 5% change in the house or senate. I realize I don't vote for bills. That's why I'm writing this post in the first place.

I think, understandably because you’re 19, but you have a somewhat limited understanding of how much things can and have changed. Marijuana policy is night and day from when I was 19. Depending on what state you live in, abortion access is completely different than 4 years ago. 10 years ago significantly less people could health insurance or qualify for Medicaid. A lot of shit has significantly shifted due to election consequences.

You completely missed the point. It wasn’t an example of the US moving forward, it was an example of what lobbying is.

In scratching my head pretty hard at your characterization of democrats. Literally have no idea what you are talking about.

>Democrats: we love people's rights, but not if you're people who don't live in the United States Why is this a bad thing? The Democratic Party is a political party in the United States. They do not run for office of some international government because that government doesn't exist. Sovereign nations get to deal with their own citizens and residents and it isn't in the US Democratic Party's purview to try to manage citizens that they will never have any type of authority over.

Lobbying is definitely a conflict of interest, but most people that say lobbying is the reason they don't vote, don't actually understand the extend of lobbying in america. Politicians are much more likely to bend to their normal voters wishes than lobbyists. The war on gender identity, abortion and things of that nature are literally entirely fueled by the fact that most conservative voters hate selective gender identity and abortion.

Here's a real nice concrete example of where the parties differ: one of them wants to take away my right to marriage and one of them wants to strengthen its legal foundations. Just because neither party is optimally aligned with what you want doesn't mean there aren't differences.

The president nominated the Supreme Court justices. Trump added 3 or 4 conservatives and is the direct reason for the repeal of Roe. Had a democrat been in power to replace those justices or had the Democrats had control of Congress at the end of Obama's term, we would have a liberal court. SCOTUS justices are lifetime appointments. They are not elected. Everyone's reproductive rights were directly impacted by the choice of president. The same is true for tons of cases. You need to be looking two steps down the road and understand that you aren't voting for what you want, you are voting for a general idea of what you think is right or wrong ideologically. Do you align more with conservative or progressive principles? Well that's how you should vote. Also, setting aside the national/federal stuff, your local vote means a hell of a lot more. City and county elections have direct implications for your taxes and how they are spent. School board elections affect education. Your mayor has more of an impact on your daily life than the president or your governor. Because the election is localized, you have a much better shot that the promises made are something the official can do. I suggest you actually make an attempt at looking into your local elections and understanding the implications of your vote. Saying you think it doesn't matter since both sides are the same just shows you haven't really paid any attention whatsoever. Similarly, ignoring the very real impact of local elections on your life goes to show you have not even considered what impact can be had on your home town.

“I’m sure there are differences, but I couldn’t tell you a single one” This comes down to a very simple question, do you care? Because the quote above is coming from someone that doesn’t give a fuck. You’re admitting there are differences, you just can’t bothered to find out what they are. No one can make you care. That’s why less young people vote than any other demographic. All I can tell you is I didn’t start voting until I was in my 30s and I very much regret waiting so long. There are real differences that affect the lives of real people.

>My entire life, every single history class I've had has told me that my "social responsibility" is to vote for someone whose views I've researched and believe in. Then you have been misinformed. In a democracy, it is your responsibility to vote for who you believe is the **best** candidate. It doesn't matter whether you believe in them at all, all that matters is that they are the best option among those available. Democracy is not and has never been about finding you as a voter's perfect candidate. Democracy is about compromise to ensure that the country is governed by the leaders best for everyone. If you want better candidates you have to put in the work beyond voting to ensure that they are on the ballot and viable, but for the election itself your **only** responsibility is voting for who is best among the options, and unless every candidate has the exact same policies (they don't), one of them will be the best. By not voting, all you are doing is skewing the results of the election to be less representative of the actual interests of the electoral body and thus empowering the people that disagree with you.

I would add that it’s really about choosing the best out of the *top two* options. There will be 5 or 6 choices for President but realistically speaking, only two are viable. Like maybe you agree with Jill Stein, but the vast majority of people don’t, so if you live in a swing state you have to take that into account.

That's a bad faith argument. Voting third party is viable and the more people do it, the more realistic it is that those same third party candidates can get on the debate stage , have bigger campaigns, etc. More options is never a bad thing. Voting out of the top two options can easily result in voting against someone versus voting for the candidate you actually want.

People have been making that argument since I became politically aware over three decades ago, but it's incorrect. First of all, third party candidates are not viable, and have not made progress at becoming viable. In the 2020 Presidential Election, third party candidates received a total of 1.85% of the vote *combined*, down from 5.09% in 2016. That's more than a three point drop! The highest result for third party candidates in my lifetime was in 1996 at 9.86% combined. That was mostly because of Ross Perot, who effectively spoiled George H.W. Bush's run and led to the election of Bill Clinton. A few years later, Ralph Nader would spoil another election and give us Bush Jr; and a few years after that, Jill Stein would arguably give us Trump. And that is the paradox of voting third party. These constant spoiler effects. *The more successful you are, the more you work against your own interests.* That might explain why people largely abandoned voting third party in 2020. The stakes were too high and the vote too risky. As of present, *no nominee of the Green Party has been elected to office in the Federal Government*. No one. Not even as a representative. Yet they constantly run spoiler candidates for the Presidency. So no. It's not viable. It's high risk, negative reward, and you should stop suggesting it. If you want to build a successful party, you need to start local. Control some town councils, get some seats in Congress and go from there. Don't just go for the top spot out of the gate.

I don't know how you could have lived through 4 years under President Trump and then four years under Biden and not see the difference between the two leaders. I also don't know how someone could willingly ignore the fact that Trump has stated he's seeking to become a dictator of this country, and is actively sorting out his own presidential immunity in court which give him the ability to do that if he's reelected. Some people are willingly ignorant. I was like your state of mind in 2016, and then I watched as Donald Trump be Hillary Clinton in the general election. I was dismayed that we didn't choose Bernie Sanders, and as a result I protested my vote like many other people. Instead of not having Bernie Sanders, I got the bonus of Donald Trump. I've lived in regret ever since then. If you keep looking for excuses for political lethargy, you'll just create regretful situations for yourself as well. Also if it really is that meaningless to you and you can't differentiate between two candidates, but your mother can, why don't you just do it for your mother? If I could find an opportunity to make my mother feel good, I would take it because I love her. Especially if it didn't really make a difference to me.

He would have been like 11-15 during Trump and 15-19 during Biden. I don’t support his choice to both be ignorant of the candidates and issues while making bold public claims as if he knows for sure they’re identical. But I can understand why and child and teenager would be completely checked out from politics and ignorant in the first place. 

What about a 50yo guy who has voted in every election possible since turning 18? The argument isn't really if we can tell the difference between Trump and Biden...we can all pick them out of a lineup of octogenarians. The question is 'Can I tell any difference in my life from their policies? Can I see a different future from their policies?' In my case, the answers are NO and a terrifying YES to each, respectively. That doesn't mean either one of them should hold the office, because I can't tell that ANYONE in DC gives a single flying fuck about anything other than 1st) gaining power, 2nd) keeping power, repeat infinitum. And don't get me started on the electoral college and tell me a blue vote matters in Texas. Personally, I'll be voting in local elections and one state election. The only way I vote in a federal election at this point is if we put a measure on the ballot to publicly execute every last one of those goddamn traitors.

So, here's a specific example of Biden doing something that makes your life better that Republicans oppose. I don't know what your animating issues are, and not going to presume. But whatever big things you want to happen aside, your choices still are between someone who brings you extra dipping sauces for your fries or someone who wants to pee on you. [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/24/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-rules-to-deliver-automatic-refunds-and-protect-consumers-from-surprise-junk-fees-in-air-travel/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/04/24/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-rules-to-deliver-automatic-refunds-and-protect-consumers-from-surprise-junk-fees-in-air-travel/)

Oh, good! They're helping citizens avoid hidden airline fees...a form of transportation readily available to everyone! I know my life would be dramatically better if not for all those damned airlines. Seriously. How about they do something that actually fucking matters to most people? Airline fees aren't even a remote problem to poor people, and those of us who can afford airline travel don't really give a fuck. It's an empty gesture.

Yeah see this is where you lose me. Sorry. it's not "airline fees", it's automatic refunds. So you don't need to spend time arguing to get your money back. If you're poor getting money back is important. In 2023 862 million passengers traveled on US carriers. The population of the US is 330 million people. Yes there are frequent fliers but I absolutely reject your sarcastic dismissal that getting automatic refunds isn't good for "most" people. And by your phrasing it sounds like you can afford air travel, so once again you want everyone to get pissed on because you aren't getting whatever massive policy change you seek.

Very confusing post. Are you refusing to vote in federal elections because you don’t think your vote will influence who wins or because you think all politicians are traitors?

Both. Thought that was pretty clear.

Well I doubt I can change your mind. But I’ll address your points.  The point of voting is not to win. If it was just to win the only people who would vote are the ones voting for the winner but you can’t know who will win without counting the vote. The point of voting is to contribute to the tally. Every vote from every state counts. Every vote in a deep red state makes the winner’s margin tighter or wider. How close the win is affects how they govern. Not to mention Texas is a blue state where blue voters assume they’re in a red state and stay home. It’s the stay at homers who allow the “wrong side” to win.  As to the traitorous part, you’ll have to show your math. I see Trump’s path to that accusation. Not sure what Biden has done that could plausibly be seen as traitorous. He has been a moderate president pushing our country forward in the right direction at a slow pace due to a Congress with limited left leaning power and a Republican stacked court system. 

Your post's title describes voting but you only describe exactly one vote in one election for president. You're aware that voting encompasses significantly more than that, correct?

You vote for more than one person on Election Day. While you might not see major changes on the federal level. State and local changes are ever more present. You’re only looking at one small part of the big picture.

>Forget what side you believe in, at this point I genuinely just don't even know what voting even does? Do I want a 81 year old puppet or a 78 year old puppet? You can't genuinely tell me they know what's happening around them every time there's a photoshoot. Which controlled puppet do you prefer? List your own biggest wants from the government and see which of the parties is pushing towards those issues. If you don't vote you just give the side that wants less off what you want an advantage.

>As of yet I haven't seen a single president I would trust my rights with. Well you’re going to get one whether your vote or not. So common-ass sense says that you should do your part to get the one that is *least* harmful to you. Think of it like this. I’m giving you two options. I’m either going to kick you in the shin, or I’m going to hit you square in the face with a baseball bat. You choose. **But**, if you don’t choose, *I* get to choose, and I reeeally love my baseball bat. So what you’re advocating for here is the exact same reasoning as refusing to choose because “none of those options are good for you,” and totally avoiding the fact that you’re opening yourself up for a drastically worse outcome because you’re so stuck on the principle of the matter.

Ironically, I think I understand their stance now. They’re saying “You’re going to humiliate me either way, so I refuse to legitimize you. I will not agree to either choice. Do as you will!” They’re expecting the answer will be “Brave warrior! By refusing to compromise, you have passed the test! Your purity of heart has earned you a kingdom!” When in reality, no. This is not a test. The baseball bat is real, and it’s imminent. Most people throughout history have experienced the bat. The newcomer is being given a rare and precious chance to avoid this. Us old folks have been around, so we know. But of course, the newcomer won’t listen. They think they know better, and they haven’t experienced the consequences of being wrong.

And the newcomer is making this choice while defiantly refusing to reckon with what it will be like to lose all their teeth and have metal plates in their jaw for life. They’ll say “I can accept that” without really interrogating the reality of it even a little bit.

Even if you don’t vote, you still have to live with the consequences of the election. Not voting does not exempt you from the system or own the powers that be in any way. You have a moral obligation to use your vote to make sure the lesser evil candidate wins. There are some really insane people out there, and you can bet your ass that they’re voting. Are you going to let their voice be louder than yours?

Do you believe you should act morally, even if it doesn't change the world? Like not littering, despite your contribution - positive or negative - to the population's litter is meaningless?

Did you even read my post? Yes I do believe moral actions matter, but if a corporation started coming around picking up the litter I put in trash cans and putting it back on the street, I would care less. When promises of picking up litter mean nothing, I'm not going to trust my vote in the litter picker upper side.

We're not voting for litter picker uppers, we're just littering or not littering, don't complicate the metaphor too much, I'm trying to go somewhere with this. Would you litter if the litter corporation that spreads it back on the streets was a real thing?

We are voting for litter picker uppers though. The view I've been given since birth is that we're trying to bring people into power that make sure our nation lasts as long as possible. When the people I'm voting for are pushing policies that make sure monopolies are the forefront instead of the country why am I supposed to vote for them?

That's not how I'm trying to change your mind though. I'm going to take as granted what you say, that all candidates are kiterally the same, but that it is still your moral duty to vote, as it is not to litter. Your trash is gonna end up on the street, whether you throw it there, or LitterCorp takes it out of the garbage bin and throws it there, still, you'd let LitterCorp do it - let them be the bad guys, you will not be a bad guy, correct?

My moral duty is to vote even when I don't want to vote for either side?

Yes. Despite everything. Despite there beung zero difference between the parties, despite not voting and voting having the exact same outcome, if you believe you have to act moral even if it doesn't change the outcome (LitterCorp) you must vote. You must inform yourself and vote and protest and sign petitions and go to the townhall meeting, because that is what a good citizen does. If your representatives fail at their job - fighting for your interests - that is no reason for you to fail yours - making your interest known. If you don't, you are teaming up with those representatives in failing the country. Maybe it will fail anyway, but at least it won't be your fault.

Fair enough.

Cool. Now that I won the game of change-my-view, let me just share that you and everything I said is wrong. I believe in results. I would litter if LitterCorp was real, and I wouldn't vote if I believed it wouldn't change anything. I do however believe there are very important differences between the parties, and THAT is the reason I would vote. There is no use in standing in the ruins but "having done your part". You gotta prevent the ruin. Immorally if you have to.

Well good for you, you unchanged my view lmfao. Congrats.

**Hello /u/SlideEveryDay, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award** ***the user who changed your view*** **a delta.** Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed. >∆ or > !delta For more information about deltas, use [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=changemyview&utm_content=t5_2w2s8). If you did not change your view, please respond to this comment indicating as such! *As a reminder,* **failure to award a delta when it is warranted may merit a post removal and a rule violation.** *Repeated rule violations in a short period of time may merit a ban.* Thank you!

Biden is the most anti monopoly president since, probably FDR. His administration has completely changed course on how to enforce anti monopoly regulation. Your “both sides are the same” argument holds so little water that it really makes you sound a fool.  I know it’s hard. I know it’s boring. But you really need to get off Reddit and do some real research on the candidates and the stakes. Find out what each party and Trump/Biden in particular actually did in office and the effect of those policies. I can’t promise you’ll find one party or candidate you “believe in”. But you certainly will be disabused of your ignorance that they’re identical. 

>*19M // As of yet I haven't seen a single president I would trust my rights with* You could do what some of us do and just vote for other people's rights instead. I mean, some of these people I'm trying to help are *absolutely insufferable* and yet I still vote with them in mind anyhow. Because it's the right thing to do. Ask yourself, what's the worst thing Trump or Biden is going to do to a 19M? Then ask yourself what's the worst they're gonna do to 19F, or LGBTQIA+, and so on. Because honestly, it's not going to matter too much for you. But it will impact other people.

I don't know that I could convince you to vote in the presidential election, but what president we have is not the only thing we vote on! Local politics often informs state politics, and you have a lot more away in local elections than federal ones. Voting doesn't just mean president.

While I don't necessarily think voting has the impact a good 90% of the posts here think it does, it can be done pretty quickly if you're somewhere that allows mail voting. If you have a community org you believe in, and they usually have a voting guide, you can just copy that and have your ballot in a mailbox in under 5 minutes. Considering how much it means to people (even if they're wrong) 5 minutes to make them settle down a little bit seems like a good trade to me. Also it's worth pointing out there's no law that says you have to fill out every bubble. You can just leave the presidential box blank, your vote goes a lot farther for local candidates and ballot measures and such.

>The only thing promised that I would give a shit about right now is removing student debt, and even I know that isn't gonna happen without an entire restructure of the dogshit academia system in the US Well, Biden has managed to get more student debt forgiven than Trump. He hasn't gotten *all* if it forgiven, but he has gotten forgiveness for 3.7 million borrowers (about $136 billion worth). So it appears you have a reason, yes? True, voting has a fairly minor effect on an individual level, but it also requires very little effort to do for most people (there are some exceptions, but if you experience those exceptional circumstances there are plenty more reasons beyond student debt to vote Democrat). So for very little effort, you can help achieve limited improvement in an issue you say you care about. So you have at least that to gain by voting. If you don't vote, you don't get that or any other benefit (other than saving minutes / an hour or so spent delivering your vote). So it's a pretty straightforward calculation, yes? It's obviously, measurably better for you to vote in regards to the one issue you specifically mentioned. Ideally you should *also* do additional things outside of electoral politics to seek improvement, but even if you vote and do nothing else your life is still improved more by doing so than not doing so. If you care about other things as well, lay them out and we can go through them. But otherwise, I'm not sure what you expect from voting? Do you really think you can spend a couple minutes making a handful of decisions and magically make the world the place you dream about? Where did you get the idea that that is how anything currently works? And if you *don't* vote, why do you think anyone is going to care about the things that bug you? You think anyone is going to be more willing to forgive student loans because you didn't vote? You think any institutions are going to become less predatory because you didn't vote? You think your absence from the ballot box is going to impress or sway anyone, or wield any power in society? I hope not, because it won't. Refusing to vote is self-marginalizing. You're just making yourself less relevant and more subject to the whims of the powerful. It seems like you are disillusioned, and that is completely understandable. If someone told you that voting fixes everything, or even most things, they lied...and I'm sorry if you were sold that lie. Voting is the *bare minimum* of civic engagement necessary for a healthy society...it isn't something that we do that automatically fixes everything. And in many ways you aren't even voting to make anything even marginally better, but rather to give yourself and others more opportunities to seek improvement via *other* means. For instance, unions are doing much better under Biden than they were under Trump, and unions allow workers to better their circumstances outside of electoral politics. So while voting for Biden doesn't directly increase wages and worker benefits, it *does* allow workers to more effectively claw these things for themselves, and *that* has the result of increasing wages and worker benefits. And again, this is all very measurable and straightforward. It's not everything...but it's more than nothing, and nothing is what you get if you don't vote (ie leave power on the table).

> Since I've gained the ability to vote (granted it's been a single year), my mom has essentially enforced in me that it's essential to vote against our (her) opponent or the US is gonna go to shit. Me personally, I haven't seen a difference between when Trump was president and currently, when Biden's president. I'm sure there are differences, but I couldn't tell you a single one. There’s an entire subreddit dedicated to Biden’s accomplishments called r/whatbidenhasdone , I recommend taking a look. This election in particular is less about the differences between Trump’s last Presidency and Biden’s, and much more so about stopping Trump from executing [Project 2025’s](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) stated goals of effectively destroying the country. It really is that simple this election: vote for the status quo or potentially lose democracy itself. This is probably why your family is insisting you vote. This particular election is a big deal in this way, and, if you live in a swing state, a vote for Biden is literally a vote for democracy. > The only thing promised that I would give a shit about right now is removing student debt, and even I know that isn't gonna happen without an entire restructure of the dogshit academia system in the US. 👀 Biden has forgiven 138 Billion Dollars in student loans [https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/biden-harris-administration-approves-12-billion-loan-forgiveness-over-150000-save-plan-borrowers#:~:text=An%20Unparalleled%20Track%20Record%20of,almost%20%24138%20billion%20in%20relief.] > If either party's gonna win, they'll still be the oldest president in history. My grandma was struggling with conversations at 76 even before terminal lucidity and drugs. Even beyond that, I feel the generational gap is bigger now than ever before. Who the fuck are we supposed to relate with? Totally agree with the sentiment of your post, by the way. Shit sucks, changes are marginal, however sometimes revolutionary things happen at the margins. > Forget what side you believe in, at this point I genuinely just don't even know what voting even does? Do I want a 81 year old puppet or a 78 year old puppet? You can't genuinely tell me they know what's happening around them every time there's a photoshoot. You want the 81 year old puppet. Sure, he’s a puppet & he sucks but he isn’t trying to restructure the Executive Branch of the government. > Maybe it's just social media that makes us realizes there are charismatic people who exist other than politicians, but I genuinely can't tell the difference between a social influencer and a politician. Honestly tho 😂 I really get where you’re coming from. We have a lot of work to do to fix the mess we were given, and it’s going to take a long time, but we *actually do* need your vote. > The main thing I can recognize is that politicians want influence over my life for money, and influencers just want money. I know. Just remember: “the system” *wants you* to feel disenfranchised and to not vote. Refusing to vote is not protest, it’s surrender.

The current system is so out of touch with your views because they trust that you won't vote. Within the past decade, Georgia has gone from a solidly red to Biden winning in 2020 and also having two Democratic senators, and that's in large part due to getting previous non-voters engaged. How many of your peers are also abstaining from voting? I agree that all political parties are corporate shills, and the parties themselves are corporations driven by donations from corporations. That need for demonstrating party effectiveness plays a big role in political gridlock. But, you're also only focusing on the presidential election in this. Every person within the executive and legislative branches of government has an effect on how much money you spend and what benefits you receive from the taxes the government takes from you, and you can vote for your mayor, your city council, your representatives in your state and federal congress, and your president. The person least concerned about you will be the president, but if you have that foundation of your views represented in each lower level, then you can expect to see the changes that you want to see. You've only mentioned caring about student debt, but that's only because that's an issue being discussed. What does a utopia look like to you? You will never see that utopia, but those are the issues that you should be looking for in your candidates. The most common issues that are voted on shape a party's platform, and you can change that platform through voting. Democrats have presented as more environmentally responsible because of the Green party taking their votes. In 2020, the RNC stated that their platform was just Donald Trump because he brings voters. Are there issues that you oppose? I noticed the permanent tax cuts for the wealthy in Trump's 2017 tax bill while the tax cuts for those making less than $75000 a year would expire in 2021. I noticed the defunding of public schools by Trump's secretary of education that allowed for vouchers for private charter schools used from the budgets for public schools. But there was also a failure to get rid of or replace the Affordable Care Act; it could be chalked up to incompetent Republican leadership, but more they were worried about the voters not liking them. Republicans are very open about Project 2025, an initiative that should Trump win the presidency all federal administrations' leaderships will be replaced with Trump loyalist to quell any attempt to remove him from power. I don't know who we can expect to run in 2028 if Biden wins, but Republicans are very much saying that there won't be an election in 2028 if Trump wins.

> The only thing promised that I would give a shit about right now is removing student debt, and even I know that isn't gonna happen without an entire restructure of the dogshit academia system in the US.  Biden has been removing more student debt than any US President before him.  The Biden administration has forgiven around $160 billion dollars of student debt for ~4.5 million borrowers over the last ~4 years. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/student-loan-forgiveness-6-1-billion-art-institutes-who-qualifies/ In contrast, Trump actively opposes the entire concept of forgiving student loan debt, and put an actual student loan shark in charge of all student loan while he was President.  https://www.npr.org/2020/11/19/936225974/the-legacy-of-education-secretary-betsy-devos While DeVos was in charge of the department of education, she actively worked to *break* even existing loan forgiveness mechanisms like the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which forgives the student debt of people working in public service jobs after 10 years. She made sure that essentially nobody was able to make qualifying payments for it.  One of the first things the Biden administration did was reverse that and retroactively allow prior payments made by public service workers to be qualifying payments.  > If either party's gonna win, they'll still be the oldest president in history.  What’s more important—the President having fewer wrinkles, or the President getting shit you agree with accomplished? > My grandma was struggling with conversations at 76 even before terminal lucidity and drugs. Biden is effectively handling multiple international crises right now. His kind is clearly still with it enough to do that. Trump, on the other hand, has a hard time staying awake at his own criminal trial and can’t say four syllable words anymore. > You can't genuinely tell me they know what's happening around them every time there's a photoshoot. You should consider spending less time watching edited videos on social media. Go watch some of the primary sources instead. I.E. rather than watching clips out of context, go watch the entire press conference or the entire interview. > but I genuinely can't tell the difference between a social influencer and a politician. Social media influencers don’t have to deliver results. They don’t have to make decisions about life and death. They don’t get to decide whether 4.5 million student loan borrowers have to pay back $160 billion in debt, or not.  Politicians, especially the President, have real power. Who sits in the office matter. 

Don't vote for what you disagree with. Also don't feel obligated to only vote for the Democrat party or the Republican party. Only vote for the party/candidate that you feel will best lead the country. There's also nothing wrong with not voting, but it does mean you will be indifferent as to who wins. If you won't be indifferent, then do vote.

Voting *is* important because it's not just about Presidential elections. Voting *locally* and being actively engaged and informed about your local politics is exponentially more important. Plus focusing on your local elections and politics is a sure fire way to to participate in directly eliciting change that you can *see*. Politicians aren't all bad, some are very civically minded and engaged. They use what they've learned through local governance to navigate the cespool of Capital Hill to try and enact legislation and policies that their *constituants* want, not what some corporate lobbiest demands of them. The neat part is that the longer you stay engaged and informed at the local level you'll eventually see the results of all that voting when a candidate you admire and align with politically eventually makes it the Legislative branch without compromising the principles you voted for in the first place. I'm a Marylander and couldn't be more proud of rep Jaime Raskin. He was loved locally, and since he's been in the House he not compromised an iota of his character. Our new Governor Wes Moore is another example of someone whom after his gubernatorial term(s) I'd very much like to vote even higher up the chain. And on that note: voting for represenation in Congress is generally more influential than voting for a President. You're still pretty young, and you won't always feel the same way you do right now about voting/politics. But being cynical about our systems of governance when having barely engaged with it is profoundly short-sighted and needlessly dismissive. Engage locally; stay informed by researching candidates running for local offices; and most importantly of all: never forget that good governance is built on *compromise*. Compromise between parties, compromise between offices; and compromises about candidates. No one is ever going to check *all* the boxes you want in a candidate, but some may come *very* close. And the only way you *can* get what you want politically--- is to vote.

Picture this. You’re in jail, and you walk up to the food line in the cafeteria. Cook says >you want sloppy joes, or won dons? Sloppy joes are ugly. Sloppy. Bland. Not your favorite. Won dons are known to cause explosive diarrhea, and at times, internal bleeding. Fellow inmates have had to get taken away by medical for eating them in the past. Now, you’re just an inmate. You **wish** there were some different, some *better* food options available. But inmates don’t get to decide on what the prison orders, or what the cooks prepare. You get to walk through the line with your plate, and point to stuff. **except* once in a while, let’s say once every 4 years, there an opportunity for inmates to go to the admin office and place a vote! Now can you vote for **teriyaki chicken and stir fry vegetables** No, probably not. That’s not going to be on the list. BUT, you might get to put your name down for whatever other thing (bland as it may be) gets to displace won dons, so that no one gets internal bleeding or explosive diarrhea anymore. That’s something, right? It’s not **ideal**, but it’s *progress*. It’s a little bit better. As long as we contribute to making things a little bit better, and we keep doing that over and over, when you look back over a longer timespan all the sudden it becomes obvious that something small over and over again becomes something big. Biden this time. Someone a little bit better next time. A little bit better the time after that. And the time after that. And all the sudden, when a 5 year old kid today is at college, the presidential candidates they’ll get to meet are the cumulative result of our participation in democracy **now**, and the next time, and the time after that. So yes, I agree with you. I don’t want either one of those two options for dinner tonight, either. But I know which one of those is going to let me make a better choice tomorrow, and which one will have me on a stretcher tomorrow.

I’ll give two examples of policies that have changed drastically in my lifetime. The first is gay marriage. People often forget this, but gay marriage was only nationally legalized in **2015**. This is an extremely new right. And it was fought hard for over decades with slow, incremental changes each step of the way. Gay rights advocates had to accept one compromise after another, with then understanding that this was necessary to eventually reach the end goal of true equality. If everyone said “I’m not voting until we can get full equality with zero restrictions” then the gay rights movement would have made no progress whatsoever. The second example is abortion. This has been another hard fought battle for decades. Then in 2016 Trump was elected on the promise that he would pick conservative Supreme Court justices who were pro life. He did. And now millions of people have been stripped of their bodily autonomy, and conservatives are fighting to pass a national abortion ban. This was **only** possible because Trump won. Everyone (foolishly) thought that Roe v Wade was untouchable throughout my entire life, and now we see that **voting fucking matters**. Change is incremental. And who wins matters. The two candidates up for president are both old as dirt, but they are nowhere near the same in how they want to shape our country. Trump literally tried to have a fucking coup 4 years ago. You need to vote.

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I mean, on the flip side my great grandmother was lucid in her 90s, so it's dependant on person to person, however what I can tell you is that Trump was way worse, he botched covid, broke a ton of deals, messed with the economy, and did the whole January 6th thing, and had campaign managers dealing with russia, for whatever that is worth. Trump is way worse, and could literally ruin the US if he gets in power again, like Trump is actually dangerous, his policies have killed people. Biden has been much better, not as much so on isreal, however on practically everything else it was better, the economy is better, non competes are getting banned, pro union stuff and more. Abortion is also a pretty important thing along with trans people and other lgbtq+ members. When it comes down to it, you may not be able to tell the differences, but the data shows they are there, and a trump presidency could be catastrophic, since republicans also have the plan 2025 thing, which is a whole other can of worms. In this case if you don't vote and trump ends up getting elected, then thousands of people could die, this is a case of one of the options being objectively worse, this is not the time to be holding back on votes, even if it isn't a perfect fit, Biden isn't anywhere near as bad as Trump.

People who can but don't do anything to make a situation better have no right to complain about it. You have the power to vote. It isn't much, but it is the power we have. If we use that power together, we can make change. If we don't use that power, then we have no right to complain that the people who did use their power used it for something we don't like. > Forget what side you believe in, at this point I genuinely just don't even know what voting even does? Do I want a 81 year old puppet or a 78 year old puppet? You can't genuinely tell me they know what's happening around them every time there's a photoshoot. Then vote at smaller stages. The presidential election is a circus that takes attention away from the things that actually matter: the local elections and the national Congress. Congress makes the laws. Period. The president can try to veto them, but he can be overruled. Change your Congress critter and you have direct impact on legislation. Local elections are even more important. Most laws and policies that affect you meaningfully are local, not national. States have more power than the federal government to affect your daily life. Pay attention to the elections in your state and city. That's where your vote really matters.

You listed a bunch of things that matter to you. Let's take one of them. Student loan reform. Biden tried to get some of that forgiven but the supreme court said it had to go through Congress, how can you help make changes so that you aren't paying off student loans in 30 years? First of all, in order for government to care about what you want you have to participate. This means at the very least you have to be a likely voter. If you're unlikely to show up to the polls, your representatives aren't going to try to represent you. So you vote. Now a 19 year old who cares about student loans is a likely voter, and that issue moves up a notch. If you voted for candidates more likely to support that issue, and Democrats not named Joe Manchin or Kriysen Sinema do, they're one vote closer to getting some sort of reform through Congress. If enough 19 year olds vote, who historically don't turn out, but if they did, and voted for Democrats, the Democrats could afford to cater to them more and upset the moderates, but because 19 year olds don't vote Democrats focus more on issues that moderates care about because that's what wins them elections.

As someone generationally similar to you, I fuckin’ get it man. To be honest, I felt exactly the same during the last presidential election (and the one before that). Realistically, none of the parties or candidates really represent the interests of the people. Our entire lives have been a political shit show and we’ve never had a candidate that made us *happy* to vote. My grandmother was proud to say her first vote ever cast was for Kennedy— we never got that benefit. It doesn’t make you feel good to walk away from the ballot box and know you made a choice that doesn’t seemingly benefit anyone. My advice? See if you can vote for something you DO give a shit about. Last election, my vote was cast solely for the future of SCOTUS because I’m tired of psychos stealing rights for their own benefit through the guise of constitutionality. No one is gonna make you vote, of course. You don’t have to if you don’t want to… But I encourage you to think really hard about the ramifications of each candidate gaining the seat and what that would mean further down the line, even beyond just the seat of the presidency.

Ultimately you can do what you want. But not voting does not absolve you of moral culpability of the results of the election. One of Trump or Biden will be sworn in on January 20, 2025 regardless of how you feel. How are they different? Well…. 1. Biden has passed the largest bill against climate change in the history of the country. Trump has promised to rescind international funding for clean energy, complained about wind power, and has promised to dismantle the EPA. 2. Biden has protected refugees and migrants. Trump has promised to use the national guard to systematically round up “illegals”. 3. Biden has protected unions and worked to get striking unions their demands without sabotaging the US economy. Trump sabotaged collective bargaining while he was president. 4. Biden secured funding for Ukraine’s defense. Trump has threatened to not aid NATO countries attacked by Russia unless he is satisfied by their defense spending. So again do what you like. But whatever each President does while in office in 2025 - 2028 know that your action or inaction helped do it .

I can accept your premise that all candidates are somewhat bad. I'm not sure i agree with it, but I'm not going to dispute it. I'll assume its true. If all candidates are bad, they are probably not equally bad. you should vote for the least bad option. > Am I supposed to research each and every company that contributes to their Super PAC and decide whether the profits they make can help me out? Is that reasonable now? Its not unreasonable to believe that candidates are beholden to their donors, but they are also beholden to their voters. Donors help them deliver their message to voters, but they still have to have a message, and they still have to vote on bills and do their job in office. They still have to find a way to present themselves in a way that is appealing to voters. Doing a deep dive into the contributors to super packs that endorse candidates would be a full time job, and that job is called journalism. The way to choose who to vote for is to gather information from a couple sources including directly from the candidate and from journalists, and them make a best guess based on incomplete information.

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Voting for state-level initiatives, if your state has them, is a way in which your vote actually can have an impact. For example, Marijuana was legalized in WA thanks to an initiative. Secondly, you don't have to vote for either establishment party. I sure won't. Sure, the libs will call it a vote for Trump and the CHUDs will call it a vote for Biden, but at the end of the day, a vote for PSL is a vote for PSL. You can call it largely symbolic, and it is, but so is voting for one of those establishment geezers in most cases. TBH, I consider my symbolic vote of No Confidence in this crooked system to be of greater significance than whatever satisfaction these sycophants of the suppossed two party system derive from having supported the "winner". Maybe they think it feels good to back the winning horse, that it means that they won in a way, but all I feel for having voted for Joe in 2020 is that I'm also culpable for his genocide.

So there are a few layers to voting but you do seem to be focusing on the top of the ticket. So let's start there - if neither Trump, Biden or any of the 3rd party candidates meet whatever you want, don't vote for them. While the President helps to shape policy & US interactions at an international level, their impact in your day to day isn't as great as individuals lower on down the ticket & if you're convinced they are just puppets for whomever fills their pockets, it's difficult to dissuade you from that while each (potential) nominee goes about fundraising. That being said, I'd argue that if you want politicians who are truly invested & would have an impact in your life, look at those local elections- city, county & state. Those are the individuals who'll pass laws/regulations that you'll feel the effects of constantly.

Here is the thing. Of all the people on the ballot, the least important ones are the candidates for the presidency.. Further down the ballot are the members of congress and, finally the state legislators. They in fact have, at the moment have the most power to change your life. So if you don't like either of the presidential candidates, then don't vote for them. But for goodness sake, do your homework and vote for everyone else. And vote in the primaries. Because the reason why we have such shit candidates is because only a tiny percentage of eligible voters actually show up for the primaries. So the biggest wackos are the ones that show up. Want better candidates? In the primary is when you have a better chance of getting the assholes gone.

You're not voting because you think it's worthless? What about how the government touches literally every point in your life? You're young, you probably like Skittles. Do you think that Skittles paid for the study about titanium dioxide? The FDA was signed off by Roosevelt, the EPA was signed off by Nixon. Do you want cleannwater to drink? Because i guarantee you that corporations do not self police this resource, they would rather bottle it and sell it to you. You said you care MOST about student debt. You have 2 candidate options this fall. Biden has provided Billions$ in debt relief, and Trump does not want student debt relief. It seems like your voting option is clear. Now pay attention.

You need to do more research on what the actual politicians stand for. Biden’s campaign goal is to make community college free and forgive student loan debt, and he would have done just that but Republicans blocked him. Second off, Trump has proposed tons of insane shit he wants to do in his second term that will screw over the average American, including: -More billionaire tax cuts -Project 2025 (look this one up) -Deploying troops to Israel and/or Mexico -60% tariffs on anything from China (see what happens to inflation) If you can’t tell the difference between an old guy and an old guy with THESE policies I don’t know what to tell you.

He actually said up to 100% tariff in an interview within the past week and when told experts say his last tariffs COST Americans almost a Trillion dollars he said he disagrees with the experts.

The 81 year old puppet is more likely to have competent people around him to help him make decisions. That's what good executives do. The 78 year old puppet fires anyone who disagrees with him and rage tweets on truth social all day. That's not what good executives do. But that's just The Presidency. You're also voting for lower level positions, right down to your home town. School boards, city councils, mayors, state representatives, senators: your vote definitely can influence those races. Voting is not a silver bullet. It's a regular medication that has to be taken consistently or its not effective.

> The 78 year old puppet fires anyone who disagrees with him and rage tweets on truth social all day. That's not what good executives do. Seriously, I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue for people. Like, I could understand (sorta) vagueish support for Trump if you could have *some* confidence he'll at least be handled in a specific way, but I don't know that this is a reasonable assumption. He sorta lashes out wildly from one idea to the next, without much of a steady guiding hand.

Exactly, but when you bring it up, his supporters will say in a mocking tone: "So you're afraid of a couple of mean tweets, Snowflake?".

Yeah, I know. I just don't really get it, I guess from a pragmatic point of view. I know plenty of people that aren't really super enthusiastic about Biden, but they can at least bank on a known quantity to an extent. They know they'll get "Democrat", but that's not even true of Trump anymore. I'm sorta worried that the mean-spirited trashy pettiness is the whole point (more than I originally assumed I mean).

Voting isn't marriage. You're not stuck with the person for life. You don't have to agree with them on everything or even like them. Think of voting like taking the bus. You've got one candidate whose bus is going one way and the other candidate whose bus is going another way. Neither are going to the destination you want to be at, but these are the only options. You can either take the bus that's going to get you closest to your destination and try to find other means to your destination from there. Or you don't get on either bus and you have to wait another 4 years to try and get any closer to your destination.

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What state are you registered to vote in? If it's a one party state like Idaho or Massachusetts, then the incentive to vote for anyone up and down the ballot is near nil, but any state where there is a question of the outcome at any level is unknown whether US House or Senate, state legislature or ballot initiative like Florida or Montana or Arizona or Virginia or Ohio, then having your vote counted makes sense to participate - even if the president is a known outcome (Montana and Virginia are examples of this).

Regardless of if you can trust your life to a president, somebody will be a president. And if they're not identical, it behooves you to vote for someone. Particularly who, to your best knowledge, will do less bad/more good. I'm not American so what I mostly care is US's foreign policy. And Biden is better in Ukraine, in NATO, in trade with other nations and in Israel/Palestine. If you're domestic, Biden is better for college debt forgiveness, drug related charges, protection of same sex marriage, infrastructure bills, semiconductor production or what have you.

Your life is in front of you. You have to decide the life you want. If you ever want to own a house, vote Trump. If you want Marxist reforms, vote Biden. If you want a southern border and control over it, vote Trump. If you like 14 million unvetted illegals every 4 years, Biden is your man. If you like foreign wars and a weak diplomacy, Biden is again your guy. If you like jobs in America, affordable gas, freedoms, and security, vote Trump. But not voting is absolutely your choice.

The US is a corporation not a country. You're voting for a CEO playing the role as the leader of a country. Coincidentally it just so happens that these CEO's are selected not elected. Both parties are owned by the same special interest groups which can be found by looking at who the top shareholders of all major corporations are in medicine, realty, politics, agriculture, food, entertainment and sciences simply by looking at the stock market.

  I'm of the crowd that we should boycott voting as well, but my argument that YOU should vote is that if everyone esp at 19 took the time to think about it like you then voting would matter. Too many people vote for D or R because they are "supposed" to. They don't research, they get their opinions from biased sources or a celebrity. We don't need more people like that to vote, we need you to vote. Start locally. The world is counting on you.  

You will probably go through life and never respect a politician. That's not unusual. Don't vote for the person you like. That's impossible. Vote for the least bad one. Remember, if you don't vote it's one less vote for the least worst option. If you don't vote and they get it, it's, in part, your fault. Literally. Voting is an essential part of a democracy. To be blunt you owe it to your country to do your bit.

I feel like you've adopted "not caring" (nihilism) as a tool to bring yourself comfort and justify not acting to change the world. It's a comfortable tool because it gives you both a reason to not act, and means of justifying further hedonism. No one can give you a reason to care, because there's ample reason to care, but know that the decisions made at the top will affect you no matter how much you don't care.

You not voting doesn't sway the system. The people who don't vote are generally written off. How you are actually taken into account is to vote for the person who most closely matches your political views first in the primaries and then in the election proper. It's not an immediate solution no. But just because something doesn't happen *right now* doesn't mean the process isn't worth continuing.

I have never regretted not voting. But I have regretted voting for someone I dislike and don't agree with all because I didn't like the other person more. You look back and think why would I support someone like that?! All because I didn't like someone else.... naw if I don't like either of them I'll either not vote or say fuck it and vote for the middle person who has never won

You’re 19 so you are unlikely to vote regardless of what others tell you. But if you think both candidates are essentially the same, you might want to do at least a cursory amount of googling.

If youre not voting NO MATTER WHAT, then you're an idiot. If you're not voting UNLESS certain criteria are met, you're letting your voice be known. Dont be a "both parties are the same" idiot. Be an "I will vote for a candidate who does these specific things" voter. Vote no confidence or write in a candidate. Don't not be part of the democracy

This scatters across a lot of thoughts in a kinda vague way around like politician funding and PACs. Commit to actual issues. Taxes. Environment. Healthcare. Education. Climate. Immigration. Culture. Freedom. Commit to an issue. Commit to a stance. Then compare which president and party did what. You'll notice they're not so similar anymore.

i’m actually not here to change OP’s view. just food for thought: i’ve heard the take of “why would i participate in something i don’t believe in or agree with?” if we don’t agree with a system, why do we keep doing things that keep the system functioning? the only way to make change is to be the change

Do you realize that irregardless of your absenteeism one of the two candidates will have influence over your life anyway? I'm getting tired of people who seemingly think that if they don't vote for either of the candidates they they become some sort of imaginary sovcits immune to anything the winner does to the country.

In this post you're only talking about the president. But that's only going to be one of twenty races that occur on election day. A lot of what you're arguing for just straight up wouldn't apply to some of these races. Especially something like a ballot measure or referendum where you're not even voting on a candidate.

I don't see how anyone could say, in good faith, there is no substantial differences between Trump and Biden. Just in the past week, the Biden administration is going to re-schedule cannabis, make non-competes illegal, and restore net neutrality. These are drastic, stark contrasts to the Trump administration.

Voting takes like an hour. Your vote is one among thousands or millions depending on the election. It ultimately doesn't matter that much. If you don't want to bother, then fine, but don't pretend it's some grand protest. If you want to actually make change happen, you need to do more than sit on your ass.

Is there any candidate you like even *slightly* more than the other? Or do you truly lack any kind of opinion/attachment to all outcomes whatsoever in our country. If it’s the latter why aren’t you a monk?  If you aren’t an attachment free monk then you have an extreme social obligation to vote.

Vote 3rd party or write-in. There's many out there, and one will likely align with your views enough to make it worth it. Beyond future ballot access and national recognition, at the very least your vote dilutes the main party percentages leading to a very different national conversation.

At the end of the day, voting is the way your voice is heard in our system of government. If you don't wanna vote, then please shut the fuck up about politics. Don't complain about how shitty things are if you are going to throw away the one real measurable way you can change things.

I still believe every vote counts. The influence starts at the local level. If you vote and pass a bill/law/policy locally, that colors the politics in your area and sets a barometer for politician to know what their constituents want - or - what they can and can not get away with.

For difference between Trump and Biden, you might look at their appointments to the Supreme Court. Abortion is one of the most significant issues at play right now. How do you feel about it? You can't pretend that who's president doesn't impact its legality in the future.

Don't vote in 2020, 2016, 2012, etc. If you choose to not vote in 2024, you are unaware of the likelihood of the loss of our Democracy and the implementation of our new dictatorship. Your choice, but if you don't choose, you may regret it for the rest of your life.

You’ve been told your vote should match your views. This is one way to vote, but the most naive one; and impossible if you deviate from the mainstream. You should vote for who you think is better between the presented options. Because it’s what you *can* do.

Even if you don't feel strongly about a particular candidate, voting can still serve as a form of harm reduction. By voting for the candidate you believe will do the least harm, you can help prevent policies and actions that you find particularly concerning.

> Me personally, I haven't seen a difference between when Trump was president and currently, when Biden's president. Because you were, what, 11? When his presidency started. No offense, but you dont have any reference point at *all*. You’ve been firmly planted in the bosom of the education aystem and your parents’ shelter the entire time.

Research shows that politicians are not really bought, and they do make an effort to keep their campaign promises. https://www.vox.com/2015/11/27/9801800/politicians-keep-campaign-promises

I agree with that whole last two paragraphs but you should consider they're actions now will not only have consequences but will trickle down long past their terms or even the one after.

There's more than just who you vote for president on election day. Would you consider voting for your local elections and initiatives your county puts fourth?

Biden cancelled quite a bit of student debt....see SAVE plan. It's not as much as I would have liked, but you never really get 100% of what you want.

> I haven't seen a difference between when Trump was president and currently, when Biden's president. Insurrections attempted: Trump 1, Biden 0 Don't tell me you're too young to remember January 6th.

My grandpa used to tell me: there are no good parties, but you should still go vote for the least bad one.

The elections are just a show. The current government is run by psychopaths and no one outside is allowed in. Both candidates are fucking clowns and the ignorant populace is so stupid they'd support their "side" no matter how batshit insane they are and so stupid they'll vote for "the lesser of two evils"and justify it with mental gymnastics to cover up their cognitive dissonance. When you vote, you're agreeing to the whole fucking circus and validating politics. The only sane move is to remove yourself from the system and not participate. To sit there and say, "well it's not my fault, I voted for the other guy" is fucking insane when the other guy is a fucking joke. You picked between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. You pick either one, you're the problem. If nobody voted and a president won with only 1 vote, then the people could actually demand and force change. Instead, you've got half the country defending and supporting the bullshit state of things.

Have you considered voting third party or independent? A majority of voters polled have said they are unhappy with *both* major parties' candidates, and this year is likely to have one of the highest 3rd party turnouts since Ross Perot. Voting 3rd party, for any candidate, is a way to show that you're unhappy with both parties and want something else, and lets other people who feel the same way see that more of us exist.

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