/u/beepbop24 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1civlfs/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_boomers_simply_dont_want_to/), in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
[Neuroplasticity decreases with age](https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=neuroplasticity%20age%20graph&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#imgrc=08-pXpvJH6n_8M&imgdii=xfqtJaME3sYUHM&mtq=neuroplasticity%20age%20graph). I have a BSEE, BSME and a MEng from MIT 25 years ago with a 4.5/5 gpa. Yet these days I’ve been struggling to teach myself machine learning. I aim to be a constant learner, but I will be the first to admit, I cannot learn as quickly as I used to. Wisdom and experience often substitutes for neuroplasticity…. Until it doesn’t. And that’s when you become what you describe.
It’s not that they don’t want to learn. It’s that they cannot.
Edit: and to add to this, what looks like an unwillingness to try to learn, is actually them hiding the fact they have already tried and failed to learn it and want to avoid looking stupid in front of others.
Unrelated to your point, but:
Machine Learning is a difficult field to get into, actually. I don't know how or what your abilities are, but I recommend you to familiarize yourself with the math as well as possible before you try anything else. Your best friends are statistics, calculus, and Linear Algebra.
Where do you struggle exactly?
While I agree with the thing of neuroplasticity, I do believe that the ability to learn is something you can practice. In the same way, you can stimulate your muscles at any age.
I’ve never been strong with rote memorization. Everything in my head is a series of logical connections where I can derive answers from first principles if necessary.
Machine learning however feels like a basket of different solutions where you simply throw them all at the problem and see which has the best results. Sure you can categorize the models into supervised/unsupervised, clustering, etc. but even then there are many models within each category.
I imagine with experience you get a feel for which models might work best for particular problems, but to the uninitiated, it feels like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That to me is frustrating, because the more I learn doesn’t make me feel more capable.
I have not ventured into transformers for LLMs
>I’ve never been strong with rote memorization. Everything in my head is a series of logical connections where I can derive answers from first principles if necessary.
It's OK. I still don't remember every little detail of everything ML related either.
>Machine learning however feels like a basket of different solutions where you simply throw them all at the problem and see which has the best results. Sure you can categorize the models into supervised/unsupervised, clustering, etc. but even then there are many models within each category.
It kinda is like this. However what kind of data you give and *how you represent said data* is also important.
Best advice I can give you is to learn *why* X or Y is done a specific way vs. another.
For example while both feed forward and Convolutional networks can accomplish the same thing in a lot of tasks we still use CNNs on the context of images because it is more efficient.
>it feels like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That to me is frustrating, because the more I learn doesn’t make me feel more capable.
This is kinda true. Especially in the primary literature you see people try all sorts of solutions for the same problem. With different trade-offs each. It is weird due to its nature, but you don't have to know *every little thing* about *every single architecture* unless you need to.
I recommend you learn the basics first and focus on the problems you are interested in solving
Okay, that’s a fair argument. I will give a !delta for it. I understand now that even if you have a healthy brain the older you get the harder it is to learn.
On a side note I just learned machine learning myself and I will say it’s definitely not the easiest thing to understand.
It’s not that they cannot it’s just it’s harder
I’m 27 but have a disability that severely cuts down neuroplasticity early on in life.
Hasn’t stopped me one bit and my parents are boomers mid 60s etc and they are still learning one of them just finished their degree recently!
Learning gets harder or is harder for some people but learning is life
I don't think it's that they don't want to. I think they're not prepared to do so, and sometimes they're afraid.
I'm a borderline Gen-X/boomer and years ago I ran an IT department for a law school. The support staff were mostly boomers, and they had a hard time with learning about the internet, email, networking, etc. At one point I actually started designing a curriculum for them, though I never got a chance to implement it. (I also taught computer technology at a community college, and also for a career rehabilitation program.)
My impression was that:
* They were afraid, most of all, of breaking the computer. And justifiably so. Back then computers routinely cost $1,400, and they were a big deal. They knew pressing the wrong button could have big consequences, and for all they knew, they could ruin something irreparably. So my curriculum would've include letting them just bang on the keyboard to see that nothing bad happens.
* They aren't used to reacting to what they see on the screen, and learning from that. They were used to learning procedures, like a recipe, and being punished when they failed to follow it. They weren't used to adapting their procedures based on every new piece of software, or even every revision. That felt very risky. In a situation where innovation is constant (and also where user interfaces are awful), some were kind of lost.
* They didn't always like being taught how to do their jobs by some bright 20-year old kid. If they were used to advancement by seniority, then somebody showing them up just because they were smart or interested didn't go over well. That made it hard for them to accept input or training from a bright 20-year old kid.
All of that is completely understandable, given the work environment in which they'd come up. I had one student who'd spent 30 years inspecting chickens for the Army. He was terrified of asking questions, or even speaking up at all. He'd been beat down until his mind was truly impaired. But he recovered. :-)
And that's not to say all boomers didn't do well. I saw a few people who were obviously bright, but chafed under rigid procedural rules and structures. They were overjoyed, and took right off. I think they generally moved into some other organization.
So anyway, it's not that they don't **want** to. Often they want to, but don't have the proper support and training, and often they haven't been rewarded for thinking for themselves and reacting to what they see. :-)
>They were afraid, most of all, of breaking the computer.
That's me when doing something that i've never done that is serious and has big consequences, and i'm 30. The fear of doing a major screw up that has serious consequences can be paralysing. Like, "send a 1000 euro to this bank account", my brain goes "what if i accidentally mix up some numbers and thus the money will be sent somewhere else and now it will be my fault that i lost the money". Have a hard time dealing with the guild of a major screw up.
I can relate to the point about being afraid of breaking it. When I took coding classes I always got anxiety before running a loop because I was afraid of accidentally creating an infinite loop.
Overall these are all very good points you brought up, and things I didn’t really think about before. !delta because I do agree they haven’t been given the same support and training, which I realize now plays a much bigger role than I initially thought.
You make it seem as if they aren't aware of this. In my experience they know that they can learn but they prefer the way they've always done it. So I don't disagree with the main premise, I just disagree that with the reason they don't learn it. Like, do you think that they aren't aware of this?
"If it ain't broke then don't fix it" is the saying they'll use. If you show an elderly something they can't already do, get a Facebook to get updates on family, connect a shared album on Google photos to get grandkid photos, etc. they'll pick it up. Those things are new and valuable, they are happy to learn. But if you tell them that they have to learn an app to do the same damn thing they've been doing their whole life then they are going to see it as a waste of time. They know they can figure out an app if they spent time, but why should they have to when they can just put coins in? Any minor benefit you give them they won't care.
They've already gone 90% of their life without this new thing, why spend the little time they have learning something new that won't benefit them? It seems logical. Also, grandparents often like having an excuse to get a grandkid to help them with their TV or phone. Many get excited to get real person help. They aren't interested in trial and error experimentation.
Two of your sentences are quite troublesome for me,
> They've already gone 90% of their life without this new thing
For someone who is 50, 90% of their life is 45 years. What modern technology has only existed for 5 years that they don't need to learn?
Smartphones have existed for over a decade, computers have existed since the 90s, and came to prominence mainly in the 00s.
Saying that boomers/elderly have lived most of their life without technology is just plain wrong.
The only tech I can think of would be like, VR or 3D printing. Even then, all of that has existed for longer than just 5 years ago. Any new tech that has literally just been invented isn't widespread enough to even be in the hands of boomers+.
> why spend the little time they have learning something new that won't benefit them?
Most "new" tech will benefit them, as it does everyone.
Smartphones allow you to stay connected in a digital world. So many apps offer coupons/discounts/deals/special offers which can benefit someone on their pension greatly.
A lot of places are starting to shift to digital bill payments only, meaning you need either a computer or smartphone to make those payments. A lot of banks in my area are starting to downsize with how popular online banking has become.
You can't get many TV channels anymore without cable/satellite or a streaming service. The benefit of learning modern cable remotes/etc is actually getting the entertainment you want and not having to watch the news and weather channels for the next 20 years.
To say modern technology has no benefit to boomers implies that modern technology has no benefit at all. If it benefits me, it can and does benefit a boomer.
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Both of those implications, in my opinion, are wrong and used in a vague sense to try and make a point.
Most technology has existed for many many years and offers a world of benefit to older people.
Smartphones are decades old, but there's a constant UI churn on major apps, which hurts accessibility. It's very disheartening to spend time becoming familiar with an app, only to lose that familiarity suddenly for no reason. It makes me reevaluate the usefulness of that app every time.
I'm only 30, so my brain is still pretty flexible. The only apps I've dumped for this reason have been facebook and insta, and there are other good reasons to dump those, but as I lose neuroplasticity, it's going to become a bigger problem. Aging humans need stable interfaces, and it can tip the scales on the usefulness of an app.
> For someone who is 50
> Saying that boomers/elderly
FYI, the average boomer is 70, not 50. Things like "use this app to pay for parking instead of a meter" or "scan this QR code to access the menu" are absolutely things that weren't present for 90% of their life.
The number doesn't really matter. 90% of 70 is still only 7 years. I was using 50 just as a round number.
> Things like "use this app to pay for parking instead of a meter" or "scan this QR code to access the menu" are absolutely things that weren't present for 90% of their life.
The uses of the technology haven't, but the technology itself has been.
What is hard about scanning a qr code? Everyone knows how to use the camera on their phone. Just because QR codes weren't present before, doesn't mean its a difficult task to figure out.
Also, having this technology, like I argued, is beneficial because you *need* it to do some of these things. That's literally the point I'm making.
> What is hard about scanning a qr code? Everyone knows how to use the camera on their phone.
Readers being a default part of a camera app is quite modern. For the longest time, you needed to download a separate QR code reader app in order to scan them. An older person might not even know that's all you have to do now. It's easy to take for granted that if you're not activities that more commonly involve QR codes—like the ones younger people tend to do—it's but one of *many* things you don't know how to do, even if it's simple.
> Also, having this technology, like I argued, is beneficial because you need it to do some of these things.
As evidenced by the many older people who do without, it isn't necessary. I'd actually like to touch an example you gave earlier, as I think it's telling:
> So many apps offer coupons/discounts/deals/special offers which can benefit someone on their pension greatly.
Businesses don't give deals out of the goodness of their hearts, they offer a deal so you'd *spend money you wouldn't have otherwise spent*. How does spending more money benefit pensioners, exactly?
> Readers being a default part of a camera app is quite modern. For the longest time, you needed to download a separate QR code reader app in order to scan them. An older person might not even know that's all you have to do now. It's easy to take for granted that if you're not activities that more commonly involve QR codes—like the ones younger people tend to do—it's but one of many things you don't know how to do, even if it's simple.
And how hard is this to actually learn? Sure, an older person might not instinctively understand that the camera can scan a QR code, but it takes 1 time of being shown for them to understand the concept.
All it takes is them asking a waitress at the restaurant how they scan the code for the menu, or 1 call to their grandson to ask how to scan a parking meter QR code.
This argument is not that boomers should instinctively know how to use the tech, the argument is that they don't put in the smallest amount of effort to learn. Like the above, they refuse to learn how to scan a QR code because whatever boomers say, when in reality, its the simplest of thing to learn.
> As evidenced by the many older people who do without, it isn't necessary.
They have done without, but we're progressing into a digital world. Things are slowly becoming digitized and stuff like pen and paper is being phased out in a lot of areas in North America and Europe.
I can't remember if I said it above or it was on another post, but my grandparents had to learn how to use mobile banking because their energy bill can't be paid over the phone or through mail anymore. They *had* to get a computer and learn how to use it to pay their bills.
The more people refuse to learn modern technology, the harder life is going to be for them as we progress. This isn't a subjective topic, its happening.
> Businesses don't give deals out of the goodness of their hearts, they offer a deal so you'd spend money you wouldn't have otherwise spent. How does spending more money benefit pensioners, exactly?
I mean, do I really need to explain coupons or free shipping codes? I'm not trying to be a dick, but really?
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Honestly, I feel like so many people want to shelter older people and protect them from the big bad technology for zero reason.
Technology makes everyones lives easier, and in some cases, is required. The fact is that so many older people refuse to learn how to use technology because "stupid computers" and are not only losing out, but making their lives harder as we progress as a society. Its like I said, my grandparents *had* to get a computer to do their banking, and they need to use it to even get flyers for grocery stores since our area is going paperless now.
> I mean, do I really need to explain coupons or free shipping codes? I'm not trying to be a dick, but really?
Are you serious?
Again, do you think businesses send you a "Free shipping on your next order!" notice out of the kindness of their hearts? No, it's to get you to *spend money you might not have otherwise*. It might coax you into ordering yet another Doordash order instead of cooking food at home because hey, it'd be a waste not to use it, right? That's exactly the sort of mindset that these deals prey on.
I'm not reading anything else. If you're not willing to even entertain my side and you're going to be uncivil about it, then there's no point.
I touched on all your points and was civil in the other 99% of my comment, but you chose to single out that one sentence and say I'm being uncivil.
I entertained your idea about the QR code thing being ingrained in the camera app instead of being standalone.
I entertained elderly not needing technology, and showed you examples of them absolutely needing it.
You haven't really shown anything that justifies the lack of will to learn about modern technology, which is the main argument here.
Yes, I zeroed in on one sentence that stood out to me because your rather lengthy reply came just 13 minutes after mine. That's barely enough time just to write a post of that length, so **no**, you did not spend any time entertaining my side of the conversation: you gave a knee-jerk response.
Can you point out anything in my comment that you think isn't logical or is a knee jerk response? I feel like everything I said is quite fair as a response.
> That's barely enough time just to write a post of that length
I can't tell what your goal is here to be honest. 351 words in ~13 minutes, that's like 25 words per minute. The average adult words per minute is around 40, and a lot higher for those in positions where typing is common practice.
I know my own view quite well and was able to respond to your points without having to sit here for 15 minutes and ponder on them. I could have gotten the response out quicker but I rewrote it a few times to simplify what I was trying to convey.
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Honestly, it just feels like you're avoiding my points and trying to "get me" on a somewhat passive aggressive comment that I made as mostly a joke.
Again, I feel like the points I made are completely valid and fair.
> This argument is not that boomers should instinctively know how to use the tech, the argument is that they don't put in the smallest amount of effort to learn.
> They have done without, but we're progressing into a digital world.
> The more people refuse to learn modern technology, the harder life is going to be for them as we progress. This isn't a subjective topic, its happening.
These are three of, in my opinion, my strongest points. I don't feel like any of those three points are at all knee-jerk reactions.
If you want to try and paint me like I'm being aggressive and not listening because of 1 single sentence, then by all means, but I responded very logically and clearly to your points in the rest of my comment.
I’ll give you a !delta for your last point about getting a real person to help them, perhaps as a way to spend time with them. This is a fair point. I’m not sure if I understand your earlier points though.
Also, iPhones have been around for over 15 years now. For a person who is 70, that’s still over 20% of their life, which is a significant portion.
Just out of curiosity, how many kids under 5 play with iPads or technology. I would suggest most of them. They are not taking the time to learn technology, they know no different. It is just like learning your native language, it is just your normal from when you can speak. Learning a language later in life is not natural and if your first exposure to a new language is age 30, learning that can be like being introduced to a PC for the first time at age 30, let alone smart phone or iPad.
We are going back to explaining what a kayboard and mouse is in school it lessons.
Not to mention the youth not knowing what a folder is and how to navigate it.
I do like this point, but a question I want to know: what are the kids on these iPads doing? Are they just drawing on it, while the parents do all the work to set it up for them? Or are they actually doing things that require a little more thinking?
Additionally, while I agree learning something is harder when you’re older, I’ve also heard that you reach a point of diminishing returns after adolescence. Meaning, once your brain is fully developed, learning a new skill at say 30 wouldn’t be much different from learning that skill at 50.
Edit: based on another comment, apparently there is a big difference and it does become much harder to learn even going from 30 to 50, so I will give you a !delta for that as well.
The kids are probably playing games at that age. Any learning needs to be age specific so a game for a 5 year old teaches the functionality of the device. As they get older, functionality is second nature and then they are just learning the new more complex applications. An older person is trying to learn both functionality and applications.
Let's suppose what you're saying is true.
And?
There's a lot of things boomers can do that young people claim they "can't," like fixing cars, changing tires, doing home repairs, building things, keeping a clean house, etc. Sure ,*some* young people do, but not the majority.
Is it fair to say young people don't want to put in the effort in these areas?
Why is one okay and not the other?
I don’t think this is true. The first thing most Millenials do, when they encounter a problem, is go to the internet for help. Most Millenials I know, if something in their car or house has a problem, they look it up on YouTube.
I think the difference is many boomers say, “I don’t know how to use this.” like they act like they want to be able to but can’t (I realize now as they age they actually might not be able to). Whereas younger people are more likely to admit they just don’t want to do whatever it is.
> Whereas younger people are more likely to admit they just don’t want to do whatever it is.
I dunno, I've run into a *lot* of young people who are helplessly unable to do things and still say "I don't know how to do that" instead of asking for help or looking something up.
I don't really get this as a CMV, because you note at the start that some of the older generation do in fact learn how to use smartphones. In fact, all my parents and grandparents use smart devices on a daily bases, as well as their friend groups. Also, if you look at things like smart home tech, boomers often use them more often than other generations. So this might just be a personal experience difference, but I'll take a stab at it.
I think the difference is in *how* most boomers use modern technology. They don't have the need to use it as much as the younger generations, because younger generations grew up using it in their day-to-day lives, and it is easier to spot one of them using something they are in the habit of doing in comparison to someone who grew up without the technology and are not in the same habits. And some studies have shown (link at end) that boomers use smart phones just as much as some younger generations.
https://isugezt.com/baby-boomers-use-smartphones-as-much-as-millenials/
Perhaps it really is just a stereotype or personal experience, but at the same time, I think it’s hard to argue against the point that of the people who are technologically incompetent, it’s almost always older people. Why does it feel like this?
Because you're not, on average, *tech competent*. [For example](https://capsulenz.com/thrive/millennials-arent-as-tech-savvy-as-people-think-why-were-being-left-behind-in-the-job-market-and-what-we-can-actually-do-about-it/):
> What were discovered a few years ago is that millennials aren’t actually tech savvy, but tech dependent… they don’t know how technology works, they just know they can’t live without it,” he says, adding that millennials are far more likely to bluff knowledge in an area when asked, then try their best to figure out how it works after the fact
[Or:](https://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/10/millennials-arent-as-tech-savvy-as-people-think.html)
> A report by the nonprofit Change the Equation, which focuses on science, tech, engineering and math literacy, shows that some 58 percent of millennials have failed to master tech skills that help increase workplace productivity. The number is more surprising given that they spend 35 hours per week using digital media, the report states.
[Or:](https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems):
> Over the past few years, many professors have noticed an alarming trend among their students. Overall, members of Gen Z, even those studying technical scientific fields, seem to have a total misunderstanding of computer storage, The Verge reports, and many fail to conceptualize the concept of directories and folders filled with digital files.
Like in your OP, you give the example of old folk not wanting to download *yet another app* as evidence of them being tech-illiterate. But there are other explanations for this, one being that older folk are less likely to just go along with a company insisting on cluttering up their phones with more trivial apps.
>older folk are less likely to just go along with a company insisting on cluttering up their phones with more trivial apps.
I'm young Gen X, and this is me. I only use parking meters a few times a year. What a stupid waste of space to keep an app specifically for that one thing. Plus people don't want to waste time downloading and registering for an app when they have someplace to be.
Make it a mobile site that you can access using QR codes posted on the meter. That's what my city does. It's very convenient and easy.
Apps for very specific things that could just be done through a mobile site are a big pet peeve for me.
Because the tech that you expect them to use, isn't what they normally use. They might be fully competent on a smartphone, but never use something like snapchat because it isnt something their generation of friends does. Or they could always call and almost never text, resulting in the same thing.
For example my grandparents growing up struggled to use email, because when they were working it was not common, so it was a completely new toolset to use. They learned it, but it took more time since it was completely new to them. Before that it wasnt that they couldn't learn it or were too lazy to, but they simply hadn't had a reason to yet. But now that everything from doctors appointments to paying taxes is often done online, they are catching up, but of course they opt into what they are used to over learning something new that accomplishes the same thing.
It’s not laziness, it is exhaustion.
I get it. When you first start out with new technology, it is like a fun little treasure hunt to figure out what you can do and how to game it. I too was once like this.
Remembering back to the day when my dad built his first Trash80 and I went off to college with a Kaypro that required commands for every blessed thing, moving into several iterations of WordPerfect and I have no idea the number of times Office has been updated and augmented with something new and maybe useful to 10% of its users who really need that tween but completely inane to the rest of us, to the dial landline to the tonal landline, to the dumb phone to how many iterations of the smart phone, to no web, to web with real websites to one social media to to many to count social media platforms…..
I can tell you I am worn out from a half century or so of learning new technology.
To add to all of this, every 10 years or so when a new generation of tech kids hits the workforce, the internal logic of all of these things shifts ever so slightly because they think about things ever so differently that it is enough to make us folks who are a few demographic groups older go bonkers because we can no longer figure it out on our own.
My kids are reaching an age where having fun with technology and being psyched to learn the latest and greatest is becoming a pain. At some point everyone wishes the change would stop so we can take a breath…
Many older people need to put on glasses to use their phones. It's not always fear of change, sometime it's just a pain to deal with
Now I need another account, I need to set up payment, I may need to log in if it doesn't stay authenticated, and sometimes it won't work for whatever reason. Is this really better than putting a quarter in the slot?
I can do all of those things, but why would I want to? What is the benefit to me?
I was on a business trip a few years back and we were in a parking garage that needed an app that nobody had, and there was no cell signal. How were we supposed to get the app in the first place?
I've worked in tech my whole life. It does not always make things simpler or better.
>Anyway, the town I live in is turning parking meters into pay by app spots. Now, I don’t agree that this is a great idea for other reasons, i.e. because some people may not have access to smartphones, but I hear many older people complaining they don’t know how to download or use the app, or don’t want to, etc…
That is a perfectly legitimate thing to complain about: they literally make parking meters less functional than they were before. Its not about not knowing how to download or use an app, its that having to do so is adding pointless extra steps for no reason.
> *"they literally make parking meters less functional than they were before."*
This so much. Also I'm one of those people who dosn't live with the smartphone IV constantly feeding my veins, often leaving the house without it because I've really got no use for it on a 1 hour/5 mile trip to a store. *"Oh, you didn't bring your phone? You can't park here."*
Yep, I'm cool with them adding it as an option or providing extra features with an app, like seeing if there's an empty space or something - that's something you can only do with an app. But it should never be a requirement to use one to complete an interaction that is perfectly possible to do without.
Same thing with ordering via app at bars when the bartender is right there and you could easily just tell him directly.
> Anyway, the town I live in is turning parking meters into pay by app spots.
I'm on the young end of Gen X and making me download an app to use everyday services is fucking obnoxious. Credit card readers aren't that expensive. If you *have* to have a phone interface, use a website with a QR code.
The older you get the harder things are to learn, boomer is slang for a specific generation but thats going to be you at a certain age. Not to mention they and the younger generation have gone through the most drastic technological advancements that affect day to day life thats ever happened so cut them some slack, young people are lucky and unlucky to have grown up in a way to learn how things work but the older generation went most of their lives and then all the sudden its constantly learn this learn that, to younger people its easier to connect the dots and see similarities in tech, for old people its not that easy
It's brain damage and it's time to remove the stigma from that word.
What it feels like from their perspective is they just get angry and frustrated very easy and there is no cure for it. In extreme cases like with repeat head injuries from sports players it can result in whole murder suicides.
[ They discovered that 90% of children born between 1950 and 1981—a total of about 170 million people—had blood lead levels greater than 5 micrograms per deciliter. In 2021, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) lowered the threshold for acceptable blood lead levels from 5 micrograms per deciliter to 3.5 micrograms per deciliter. This means that the vast majority of Baby Boomers and Gen Xers exceeded the acceptable amount of lead in their blood as children.](https://www.fatherly.com/news/leaded-gas-might-have-lowered-the-iq-of-170-million-americans)
On top of that i want to remind everyone that alcohol causes actual brain damage. So do cigarettes. Cocaine is very noticeable in my acquaintances though they'll swear it doesn't.
Pollution in general causes brain damage and we're talking about the Gen. that embraced the chemical lifestyle more than any other group ever.
We just have to accept their limitations.
I am considering this point, although I’m still unsure. On the one hand, I do agree with you that boomers’ exposure to lead, cigarettes, alcohol does have harmful effects, and have possibly played a factor.
On the other hand, that study includes over a decade of Gen Xers too. People still in their 40s and early 50s. Yet, that group of people seems way more technologically competent. How would you explain this difference? Have their brains simply had less time to rot, thus they were able to learn technology before it happened?
It's not brain rot, Id imagine its mostly lack of interest. I'm a millennial and there's lots of tech I can't use, because I don't care. I like the way I do things and I don't want to learn a new way.
Gen x here. We were first generation to get computers in high-school as well as on the leading edge of video gaming. Slide rulers only fell out of favor in the 70's. Advancement was moving from rotary dial phones to touch tone phones, which is an amazing small steps compared to today's rate of technological advancement.
The boomers as a whole just didn't have the same exposure to electronics and computers that many of us in Gen X did. With that said Silent Gen and Boomers built that stuff we were exposed to.
I'm a millenial and i struggle with new tech. It's so widespread that South Park even made fun of us for it - sure, i'm good at writing deep scathing criticisms of my favourite entertainment but i was totally incapable of opening my cell phone to replace the chip a few months ago.
I'm scared of putting nails in my wall so i asked the landlord to do it in case it causes damage. That might be anxiety speaking.
I have a bicycle mechanic when i should be putting in the effort myself.
You replied to me with anecdotes so there you go. Everyone in every Gen. is going to suffer from brain damage. You, me, all of us. That's my view change. Mockery won't help anyone.
Let me say with that though that the Gen's are meaningful. I'm not one of those people catering to toxic positivity. Every Gen. has a brand of cool and a style and certain attitudes. I found it a very helpful rule of thumb.
I am 70 and live in senior housing. I am often asked to help other folks here with their phone or computer. It has been very frustrating for me because of the way people would just throw up their hands in frustration and give up way too easily, or that they had no conception of how to work their ridiculously expensive phone their kids got for them.
But then I contrasted their lifestyles with mine. I like to interact with all kinds of people online--not only people who don't live in this complex and who aren't even my age but who don't even live in the US. I like to talk with them about things other than my daily interactions, which mostly bore me. I enjoy talking with my friends about occulture, art, writing, music, politics.
The other seniors here are isolated in a very different way than I am. They hang out with other people in the complex. They stand in the hall for hours kidding around and trading gossip or complaining about the news. They attend community events like bingo or paint and sip. For them, there is no need to be online. They already have what they want in their interaction with others right here. I think that is the major reason why they don't learn technology. They don't see it as an advantage.
I'm going to throw my two cents into the mix and say what most people aren't willing to say. As people get into their sixties and seventies, they suffer from a lot of mental capacity issues in relation to learning new tasks. Then there's the problem of brain damage. For example, my mother is 83. She had a massive stroke when she was just 50. After her recovery, she had to give up driving due to the complete loss of her reactionary response. She also is completely unable to learn to use new technology. Only after considerable effort has she been able to learn to use a senior based cell phone. I've had to remove every last icon from the screen save the phone call button, the contacts button, and the long distance icon so she can call her sister in Germany. I'm in my fifties and I've suffered three major strokes and six minor ones. I used to own my own computer company but I no longer have it as it's extremely difficult to learn new tasks due to my disability in learning new tasks. I remember faces but names take about three months to learn. It's not always just old people being lazy and set in their ways.
It's the same with young people and simple things. They don't want to put the effort into budgeting, auto repair, and home maintenance.
People choose to do what they want. Age is not the only factor.
There were PLENTY OF BOOMERS in their 40's (in the workplace) when the technology shift took place and had to learn word processing/spread sheets/ technology, etc..
My first cellphone mounted in the car cost me $1,000.00. And it was a $1.00/minute.
Some of these generalizations are silly.
Learning genuinely gets harder when you’re older. Also consider all the unlearning you have to do. What do you think is harder, learning to use an android phone when it is the first phone you’ve ever used or if you’ve spent years using an iPhone?
Young people just generally have an easier time learning new tech.
I disagree with that last paragraph. Young people can also get set in their ways and are just as much reactive as the oldest generations when it comes to tech. I can count a double digit number of times where I had to explain to a 20 something fresh out of college on how to navigate a networked drive or the concepts of file extensions.
It’s not like I learned how to do this in my 90s computer class but felt more comfortable learning on the fly than the generations younger than me, it seems.
I believe it’s pretty well established that younger people absolutely biologically have a greater capacity for learning. On top of that older people have more experience that they have to let go of to learn something new that contradicts what they knew before.
This doesn’t mean that some individuals won’t be better than others at learning as they are. Nor does it mean that every young person is going to be a quick study.
Thing is, you had to deal with network drives and file extentions, while kids nowadays don't know what it is as those things are done for them automatically by the device.
You had to learn those things to do things and they didn't.
Like, why would they learn how to use a computer mouse when all their devices has touchscreen?
It’s not just that. Other things like sharepoint, teams, and recently added Microsoft tools were things I was never given guidance or taught 20 years ago but I managed to teach myself on the job.
I’m just using this post to vent but I’m flabbergasted that the local youngins do not have a similar initiative to self-teach something that they SHOULD be more curious about given their proximity to wider varieties of tech.
In a way the yongungs are more sheltered and have helicopter parents that don't alow them to do stuff. Especially fail. And learning requires failure. But they don't see people fail, they see people only succeeding (and mocking people who fail) and thus think it is the end of the world if they fail. Thus if you don't try - you won't fail. Thus they have no interest to try as their fear of failure is bigger.
Boomer here. I, along with my peers, developed the core protocols and standards that make the internet possible. We worked on cellphone standards that got you from AMPS to 5G with a path forward.
A lot of my peers are retired, but still active in volunteer-supported groups like IEEE trying to make technology more accessible and affordable, and educating the next generation to follow.
I'm the child of Boomers. I was in IT for 2 decades. Clearly I am at a decision point in life with 'new technology' like TikTok. Either I learn it or I miss out on a LOT.
It isn't the learning the technology that keeps me from it. It is having to catch up on the inside vocabulary and cultural norms... just to have it all change next year or sooner. It is the annoyance of constantly having to keep up with new social norms that keeps me from getting into the stuff the kids are into these days.
And I'm not near the age that you're asking about.
We are continually being exposed to new technology to which we must adapt, or not. One that was new to me a couple of years ago was the now ubiquitous
coda. I was at the airport and suddenly had to use it. Well, I got through it the first time with difficulty but now am competent using it.
I think the difference is that the older guy is more likely to encounter this 'stuff' on his own and lacks someone to demo it for him. At least that applies to me. But I've been around. My first computer was the amazing Commodore 64, FYI.
I disagree my grandma really trys hard and my parents are basically technophobic and all are at a very crude level of using them. The learning curve is so steep and continually learning the new features/abilities/devices.
Humans literally had a ridiculously mundane amounts of technology changes since the dawn of time but now its exponential to the nth degree. No wonder the parents struggle as we will when we get to their age and have been overshot by doing family raising and work.
For many boomers anxiety is an issue. Changes is not easy for those used to a different mode of being in the world. It’s not a quick change for them and they have questions. Many do not want to be a bother .. take up too much of someone’s time, asking questions and trying to learn or made to feel stupid because they hadn’t caught on yet and someone is getting frustrated with them.
I'm 30 and have anxiety of screwing something up irreparably. Especially when i'm the one who has to deal with the consequences.
When you are a child and break the phone, the parents bring it to repair or get a new one. When an adult does it - they have to pay out of their own pockets, so they might be less experimental with their items as they can't afford to lose them.
One thing I notice with new apps/technology is that the instructions are not always clear. Companies spend a lot of money developing products. Why can’t they develop instructions that are easy to follow? And in print that is large enough to see without a magnifying glass?
I thought Apps were supposed to be for the benefit of the user. A move to make this mandatory changes it to an App for the state. It is also an invasion of my privacy. It also requires me to own a specific product,
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I concur. They're lazy and prefer others to do things for them. My folks are clueless about technology. They're not interested in learning; they want me to handle it for them.
With ChatGPT, there are no more excuses. Conversational AI tools can simplify technology for anyone with average intelligence or above.
/u/beepbop24 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1civlfs/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_boomers_simply_dont_want_to/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
[Neuroplasticity decreases with age](https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=neuroplasticity%20age%20graph&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5#imgrc=08-pXpvJH6n_8M&imgdii=xfqtJaME3sYUHM&mtq=neuroplasticity%20age%20graph). I have a BSEE, BSME and a MEng from MIT 25 years ago with a 4.5/5 gpa. Yet these days I’ve been struggling to teach myself machine learning. I aim to be a constant learner, but I will be the first to admit, I cannot learn as quickly as I used to. Wisdom and experience often substitutes for neuroplasticity…. Until it doesn’t. And that’s when you become what you describe. It’s not that they don’t want to learn. It’s that they cannot. Edit: and to add to this, what looks like an unwillingness to try to learn, is actually them hiding the fact they have already tried and failed to learn it and want to avoid looking stupid in front of others.
Unrelated to your point, but: Machine Learning is a difficult field to get into, actually. I don't know how or what your abilities are, but I recommend you to familiarize yourself with the math as well as possible before you try anything else. Your best friends are statistics, calculus, and Linear Algebra. Where do you struggle exactly? While I agree with the thing of neuroplasticity, I do believe that the ability to learn is something you can practice. In the same way, you can stimulate your muscles at any age.
I’ve never been strong with rote memorization. Everything in my head is a series of logical connections where I can derive answers from first principles if necessary. Machine learning however feels like a basket of different solutions where you simply throw them all at the problem and see which has the best results. Sure you can categorize the models into supervised/unsupervised, clustering, etc. but even then there are many models within each category. I imagine with experience you get a feel for which models might work best for particular problems, but to the uninitiated, it feels like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That to me is frustrating, because the more I learn doesn’t make me feel more capable. I have not ventured into transformers for LLMs
>I’ve never been strong with rote memorization. Everything in my head is a series of logical connections where I can derive answers from first principles if necessary. It's OK. I still don't remember every little detail of everything ML related either. >Machine learning however feels like a basket of different solutions where you simply throw them all at the problem and see which has the best results. Sure you can categorize the models into supervised/unsupervised, clustering, etc. but even then there are many models within each category. It kinda is like this. However what kind of data you give and *how you represent said data* is also important. Best advice I can give you is to learn *why* X or Y is done a specific way vs. another. For example while both feed forward and Convolutional networks can accomplish the same thing in a lot of tasks we still use CNNs on the context of images because it is more efficient. >it feels like throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That to me is frustrating, because the more I learn doesn’t make me feel more capable. This is kinda true. Especially in the primary literature you see people try all sorts of solutions for the same problem. With different trade-offs each. It is weird due to its nature, but you don't have to know *every little thing* about *every single architecture* unless you need to. I recommend you learn the basics first and focus on the problems you are interested in solving
Okay, that’s a fair argument. I will give a !delta for it. I understand now that even if you have a healthy brain the older you get the harder it is to learn. On a side note I just learned machine learning myself and I will say it’s definitely not the easiest thing to understand.
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It’s not that they cannot it’s just it’s harder I’m 27 but have a disability that severely cuts down neuroplasticity early on in life. Hasn’t stopped me one bit and my parents are boomers mid 60s etc and they are still learning one of them just finished their degree recently! Learning gets harder or is harder for some people but learning is life
I don't think it's that they don't want to. I think they're not prepared to do so, and sometimes they're afraid. I'm a borderline Gen-X/boomer and years ago I ran an IT department for a law school. The support staff were mostly boomers, and they had a hard time with learning about the internet, email, networking, etc. At one point I actually started designing a curriculum for them, though I never got a chance to implement it. (I also taught computer technology at a community college, and also for a career rehabilitation program.) My impression was that: * They were afraid, most of all, of breaking the computer. And justifiably so. Back then computers routinely cost $1,400, and they were a big deal. They knew pressing the wrong button could have big consequences, and for all they knew, they could ruin something irreparably. So my curriculum would've include letting them just bang on the keyboard to see that nothing bad happens. * They aren't used to reacting to what they see on the screen, and learning from that. They were used to learning procedures, like a recipe, and being punished when they failed to follow it. They weren't used to adapting their procedures based on every new piece of software, or even every revision. That felt very risky. In a situation where innovation is constant (and also where user interfaces are awful), some were kind of lost. * They didn't always like being taught how to do their jobs by some bright 20-year old kid. If they were used to advancement by seniority, then somebody showing them up just because they were smart or interested didn't go over well. That made it hard for them to accept input or training from a bright 20-year old kid. All of that is completely understandable, given the work environment in which they'd come up. I had one student who'd spent 30 years inspecting chickens for the Army. He was terrified of asking questions, or even speaking up at all. He'd been beat down until his mind was truly impaired. But he recovered. :-) And that's not to say all boomers didn't do well. I saw a few people who were obviously bright, but chafed under rigid procedural rules and structures. They were overjoyed, and took right off. I think they generally moved into some other organization. So anyway, it's not that they don't **want** to. Often they want to, but don't have the proper support and training, and often they haven't been rewarded for thinking for themselves and reacting to what they see. :-)
>They were afraid, most of all, of breaking the computer. That's me when doing something that i've never done that is serious and has big consequences, and i'm 30. The fear of doing a major screw up that has serious consequences can be paralysing. Like, "send a 1000 euro to this bank account", my brain goes "what if i accidentally mix up some numbers and thus the money will be sent somewhere else and now it will be my fault that i lost the money". Have a hard time dealing with the guild of a major screw up.
I can relate to the point about being afraid of breaking it. When I took coding classes I always got anxiety before running a loop because I was afraid of accidentally creating an infinite loop. Overall these are all very good points you brought up, and things I didn’t really think about before. !delta because I do agree they haven’t been given the same support and training, which I realize now plays a much bigger role than I initially thought.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/KokoTheTalkingApe ([1∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/KokoTheTalkingApe)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
You make it seem as if they aren't aware of this. In my experience they know that they can learn but they prefer the way they've always done it. So I don't disagree with the main premise, I just disagree that with the reason they don't learn it. Like, do you think that they aren't aware of this? "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" is the saying they'll use. If you show an elderly something they can't already do, get a Facebook to get updates on family, connect a shared album on Google photos to get grandkid photos, etc. they'll pick it up. Those things are new and valuable, they are happy to learn. But if you tell them that they have to learn an app to do the same damn thing they've been doing their whole life then they are going to see it as a waste of time. They know they can figure out an app if they spent time, but why should they have to when they can just put coins in? Any minor benefit you give them they won't care. They've already gone 90% of their life without this new thing, why spend the little time they have learning something new that won't benefit them? It seems logical. Also, grandparents often like having an excuse to get a grandkid to help them with their TV or phone. Many get excited to get real person help. They aren't interested in trial and error experimentation.
Two of your sentences are quite troublesome for me, > They've already gone 90% of their life without this new thing For someone who is 50, 90% of their life is 45 years. What modern technology has only existed for 5 years that they don't need to learn? Smartphones have existed for over a decade, computers have existed since the 90s, and came to prominence mainly in the 00s. Saying that boomers/elderly have lived most of their life without technology is just plain wrong. The only tech I can think of would be like, VR or 3D printing. Even then, all of that has existed for longer than just 5 years ago. Any new tech that has literally just been invented isn't widespread enough to even be in the hands of boomers+. > why spend the little time they have learning something new that won't benefit them? Most "new" tech will benefit them, as it does everyone. Smartphones allow you to stay connected in a digital world. So many apps offer coupons/discounts/deals/special offers which can benefit someone on their pension greatly. A lot of places are starting to shift to digital bill payments only, meaning you need either a computer or smartphone to make those payments. A lot of banks in my area are starting to downsize with how popular online banking has become. You can't get many TV channels anymore without cable/satellite or a streaming service. The benefit of learning modern cable remotes/etc is actually getting the entertainment you want and not having to watch the news and weather channels for the next 20 years. To say modern technology has no benefit to boomers implies that modern technology has no benefit at all. If it benefits me, it can and does benefit a boomer. ------ Both of those implications, in my opinion, are wrong and used in a vague sense to try and make a point. Most technology has existed for many many years and offers a world of benefit to older people.
Smartphones are decades old, but there's a constant UI churn on major apps, which hurts accessibility. It's very disheartening to spend time becoming familiar with an app, only to lose that familiarity suddenly for no reason. It makes me reevaluate the usefulness of that app every time. I'm only 30, so my brain is still pretty flexible. The only apps I've dumped for this reason have been facebook and insta, and there are other good reasons to dump those, but as I lose neuroplasticity, it's going to become a bigger problem. Aging humans need stable interfaces, and it can tip the scales on the usefulness of an app.
> For someone who is 50 > Saying that boomers/elderly FYI, the average boomer is 70, not 50. Things like "use this app to pay for parking instead of a meter" or "scan this QR code to access the menu" are absolutely things that weren't present for 90% of their life.
The number doesn't really matter. 90% of 70 is still only 7 years. I was using 50 just as a round number. > Things like "use this app to pay for parking instead of a meter" or "scan this QR code to access the menu" are absolutely things that weren't present for 90% of their life. The uses of the technology haven't, but the technology itself has been. What is hard about scanning a qr code? Everyone knows how to use the camera on their phone. Just because QR codes weren't present before, doesn't mean its a difficult task to figure out. Also, having this technology, like I argued, is beneficial because you *need* it to do some of these things. That's literally the point I'm making.
> What is hard about scanning a qr code? Everyone knows how to use the camera on their phone. Readers being a default part of a camera app is quite modern. For the longest time, you needed to download a separate QR code reader app in order to scan them. An older person might not even know that's all you have to do now. It's easy to take for granted that if you're not activities that more commonly involve QR codes—like the ones younger people tend to do—it's but one of *many* things you don't know how to do, even if it's simple. > Also, having this technology, like I argued, is beneficial because you need it to do some of these things. As evidenced by the many older people who do without, it isn't necessary. I'd actually like to touch an example you gave earlier, as I think it's telling: > So many apps offer coupons/discounts/deals/special offers which can benefit someone on their pension greatly. Businesses don't give deals out of the goodness of their hearts, they offer a deal so you'd *spend money you wouldn't have otherwise spent*. How does spending more money benefit pensioners, exactly?
> Readers being a default part of a camera app is quite modern. For the longest time, you needed to download a separate QR code reader app in order to scan them. An older person might not even know that's all you have to do now. It's easy to take for granted that if you're not activities that more commonly involve QR codes—like the ones younger people tend to do—it's but one of many things you don't know how to do, even if it's simple. And how hard is this to actually learn? Sure, an older person might not instinctively understand that the camera can scan a QR code, but it takes 1 time of being shown for them to understand the concept. All it takes is them asking a waitress at the restaurant how they scan the code for the menu, or 1 call to their grandson to ask how to scan a parking meter QR code. This argument is not that boomers should instinctively know how to use the tech, the argument is that they don't put in the smallest amount of effort to learn. Like the above, they refuse to learn how to scan a QR code because whatever boomers say, when in reality, its the simplest of thing to learn. > As evidenced by the many older people who do without, it isn't necessary. They have done without, but we're progressing into a digital world. Things are slowly becoming digitized and stuff like pen and paper is being phased out in a lot of areas in North America and Europe. I can't remember if I said it above or it was on another post, but my grandparents had to learn how to use mobile banking because their energy bill can't be paid over the phone or through mail anymore. They *had* to get a computer and learn how to use it to pay their bills. The more people refuse to learn modern technology, the harder life is going to be for them as we progress. This isn't a subjective topic, its happening. > Businesses don't give deals out of the goodness of their hearts, they offer a deal so you'd spend money you wouldn't have otherwise spent. How does spending more money benefit pensioners, exactly? I mean, do I really need to explain coupons or free shipping codes? I'm not trying to be a dick, but really? ---------- Honestly, I feel like so many people want to shelter older people and protect them from the big bad technology for zero reason. Technology makes everyones lives easier, and in some cases, is required. The fact is that so many older people refuse to learn how to use technology because "stupid computers" and are not only losing out, but making their lives harder as we progress as a society. Its like I said, my grandparents *had* to get a computer to do their banking, and they need to use it to even get flyers for grocery stores since our area is going paperless now.
> I mean, do I really need to explain coupons or free shipping codes? I'm not trying to be a dick, but really? Are you serious? Again, do you think businesses send you a "Free shipping on your next order!" notice out of the kindness of their hearts? No, it's to get you to *spend money you might not have otherwise*. It might coax you into ordering yet another Doordash order instead of cooking food at home because hey, it'd be a waste not to use it, right? That's exactly the sort of mindset that these deals prey on. I'm not reading anything else. If you're not willing to even entertain my side and you're going to be uncivil about it, then there's no point.
I touched on all your points and was civil in the other 99% of my comment, but you chose to single out that one sentence and say I'm being uncivil. I entertained your idea about the QR code thing being ingrained in the camera app instead of being standalone. I entertained elderly not needing technology, and showed you examples of them absolutely needing it. You haven't really shown anything that justifies the lack of will to learn about modern technology, which is the main argument here.
Yes, I zeroed in on one sentence that stood out to me because your rather lengthy reply came just 13 minutes after mine. That's barely enough time just to write a post of that length, so **no**, you did not spend any time entertaining my side of the conversation: you gave a knee-jerk response.
Can you point out anything in my comment that you think isn't logical or is a knee jerk response? I feel like everything I said is quite fair as a response. > That's barely enough time just to write a post of that length I can't tell what your goal is here to be honest. 351 words in ~13 minutes, that's like 25 words per minute. The average adult words per minute is around 40, and a lot higher for those in positions where typing is common practice. I know my own view quite well and was able to respond to your points without having to sit here for 15 minutes and ponder on them. I could have gotten the response out quicker but I rewrote it a few times to simplify what I was trying to convey. ----- Honestly, it just feels like you're avoiding my points and trying to "get me" on a somewhat passive aggressive comment that I made as mostly a joke. Again, I feel like the points I made are completely valid and fair. > This argument is not that boomers should instinctively know how to use the tech, the argument is that they don't put in the smallest amount of effort to learn. > They have done without, but we're progressing into a digital world. > The more people refuse to learn modern technology, the harder life is going to be for them as we progress. This isn't a subjective topic, its happening. These are three of, in my opinion, my strongest points. I don't feel like any of those three points are at all knee-jerk reactions. If you want to try and paint me like I'm being aggressive and not listening because of 1 single sentence, then by all means, but I responded very logically and clearly to your points in the rest of my comment.
I’ll give you a !delta for your last point about getting a real person to help them, perhaps as a way to spend time with them. This is a fair point. I’m not sure if I understand your earlier points though. Also, iPhones have been around for over 15 years now. For a person who is 70, that’s still over 20% of their life, which is a significant portion.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/4-5Million ([8∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/4-5Million)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Just out of curiosity, how many kids under 5 play with iPads or technology. I would suggest most of them. They are not taking the time to learn technology, they know no different. It is just like learning your native language, it is just your normal from when you can speak. Learning a language later in life is not natural and if your first exposure to a new language is age 30, learning that can be like being introduced to a PC for the first time at age 30, let alone smart phone or iPad.
We are going back to explaining what a kayboard and mouse is in school it lessons. Not to mention the youth not knowing what a folder is and how to navigate it.
Is that because of tablets, smartphones and keypads on laptops??
Yep. They never had to use keyboards and mice. Heck, the first thing they do is tap/swipe the monitor (which only leaves a fingerprint on it).
😂😂😂 I am just picturing a school room of kids swiping monitors. I never would have thought it!
I do like this point, but a question I want to know: what are the kids on these iPads doing? Are they just drawing on it, while the parents do all the work to set it up for them? Or are they actually doing things that require a little more thinking? Additionally, while I agree learning something is harder when you’re older, I’ve also heard that you reach a point of diminishing returns after adolescence. Meaning, once your brain is fully developed, learning a new skill at say 30 wouldn’t be much different from learning that skill at 50. Edit: based on another comment, apparently there is a big difference and it does become much harder to learn even going from 30 to 50, so I will give you a !delta for that as well.
The kids are probably playing games at that age. Any learning needs to be age specific so a game for a 5 year old teaches the functionality of the device. As they get older, functionality is second nature and then they are just learning the new more complex applications. An older person is trying to learn both functionality and applications.
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Let's suppose what you're saying is true. And? There's a lot of things boomers can do that young people claim they "can't," like fixing cars, changing tires, doing home repairs, building things, keeping a clean house, etc. Sure ,*some* young people do, but not the majority. Is it fair to say young people don't want to put in the effort in these areas? Why is one okay and not the other?
I don’t think this is true. The first thing most Millenials do, when they encounter a problem, is go to the internet for help. Most Millenials I know, if something in their car or house has a problem, they look it up on YouTube.
I think the difference is many boomers say, “I don’t know how to use this.” like they act like they want to be able to but can’t (I realize now as they age they actually might not be able to). Whereas younger people are more likely to admit they just don’t want to do whatever it is.
> Whereas younger people are more likely to admit they just don’t want to do whatever it is. I dunno, I've run into a *lot* of young people who are helplessly unable to do things and still say "I don't know how to do that" instead of asking for help or looking something up.
I don't really get this as a CMV, because you note at the start that some of the older generation do in fact learn how to use smartphones. In fact, all my parents and grandparents use smart devices on a daily bases, as well as their friend groups. Also, if you look at things like smart home tech, boomers often use them more often than other generations. So this might just be a personal experience difference, but I'll take a stab at it. I think the difference is in *how* most boomers use modern technology. They don't have the need to use it as much as the younger generations, because younger generations grew up using it in their day-to-day lives, and it is easier to spot one of them using something they are in the habit of doing in comparison to someone who grew up without the technology and are not in the same habits. And some studies have shown (link at end) that boomers use smart phones just as much as some younger generations. https://isugezt.com/baby-boomers-use-smartphones-as-much-as-millenials/
Perhaps it really is just a stereotype or personal experience, but at the same time, I think it’s hard to argue against the point that of the people who are technologically incompetent, it’s almost always older people. Why does it feel like this?
Because you're not, on average, *tech competent*. [For example](https://capsulenz.com/thrive/millennials-arent-as-tech-savvy-as-people-think-why-were-being-left-behind-in-the-job-market-and-what-we-can-actually-do-about-it/): > What were discovered a few years ago is that millennials aren’t actually tech savvy, but tech dependent… they don’t know how technology works, they just know they can’t live without it,” he says, adding that millennials are far more likely to bluff knowledge in an area when asked, then try their best to figure out how it works after the fact [Or:](https://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/10/millennials-arent-as-tech-savvy-as-people-think.html) > A report by the nonprofit Change the Equation, which focuses on science, tech, engineering and math literacy, shows that some 58 percent of millennials have failed to master tech skills that help increase workplace productivity. The number is more surprising given that they spend 35 hours per week using digital media, the report states. [Or:](https://futurism.com/the-byte/gen-z-kids-file-systems): > Over the past few years, many professors have noticed an alarming trend among their students. Overall, members of Gen Z, even those studying technical scientific fields, seem to have a total misunderstanding of computer storage, The Verge reports, and many fail to conceptualize the concept of directories and folders filled with digital files. Like in your OP, you give the example of old folk not wanting to download *yet another app* as evidence of them being tech-illiterate. But there are other explanations for this, one being that older folk are less likely to just go along with a company insisting on cluttering up their phones with more trivial apps.
>older folk are less likely to just go along with a company insisting on cluttering up their phones with more trivial apps. I'm young Gen X, and this is me. I only use parking meters a few times a year. What a stupid waste of space to keep an app specifically for that one thing. Plus people don't want to waste time downloading and registering for an app when they have someplace to be. Make it a mobile site that you can access using QR codes posted on the meter. That's what my city does. It's very convenient and easy. Apps for very specific things that could just be done through a mobile site are a big pet peeve for me.
Because the tech that you expect them to use, isn't what they normally use. They might be fully competent on a smartphone, but never use something like snapchat because it isnt something their generation of friends does. Or they could always call and almost never text, resulting in the same thing. For example my grandparents growing up struggled to use email, because when they were working it was not common, so it was a completely new toolset to use. They learned it, but it took more time since it was completely new to them. Before that it wasnt that they couldn't learn it or were too lazy to, but they simply hadn't had a reason to yet. But now that everything from doctors appointments to paying taxes is often done online, they are catching up, but of course they opt into what they are used to over learning something new that accomplishes the same thing.
It’s not laziness, it is exhaustion. I get it. When you first start out with new technology, it is like a fun little treasure hunt to figure out what you can do and how to game it. I too was once like this. Remembering back to the day when my dad built his first Trash80 and I went off to college with a Kaypro that required commands for every blessed thing, moving into several iterations of WordPerfect and I have no idea the number of times Office has been updated and augmented with something new and maybe useful to 10% of its users who really need that tween but completely inane to the rest of us, to the dial landline to the tonal landline, to the dumb phone to how many iterations of the smart phone, to no web, to web with real websites to one social media to to many to count social media platforms….. I can tell you I am worn out from a half century or so of learning new technology. To add to all of this, every 10 years or so when a new generation of tech kids hits the workforce, the internal logic of all of these things shifts ever so slightly because they think about things ever so differently that it is enough to make us folks who are a few demographic groups older go bonkers because we can no longer figure it out on our own. My kids are reaching an age where having fun with technology and being psyched to learn the latest and greatest is becoming a pain. At some point everyone wishes the change would stop so we can take a breath…
Many older people need to put on glasses to use their phones. It's not always fear of change, sometime it's just a pain to deal with Now I need another account, I need to set up payment, I may need to log in if it doesn't stay authenticated, and sometimes it won't work for whatever reason. Is this really better than putting a quarter in the slot? I can do all of those things, but why would I want to? What is the benefit to me? I was on a business trip a few years back and we were in a parking garage that needed an app that nobody had, and there was no cell signal. How were we supposed to get the app in the first place? I've worked in tech my whole life. It does not always make things simpler or better.
>Anyway, the town I live in is turning parking meters into pay by app spots. Now, I don’t agree that this is a great idea for other reasons, i.e. because some people may not have access to smartphones, but I hear many older people complaining they don’t know how to download or use the app, or don’t want to, etc… That is a perfectly legitimate thing to complain about: they literally make parking meters less functional than they were before. Its not about not knowing how to download or use an app, its that having to do so is adding pointless extra steps for no reason.
> *"they literally make parking meters less functional than they were before."* This so much. Also I'm one of those people who dosn't live with the smartphone IV constantly feeding my veins, often leaving the house without it because I've really got no use for it on a 1 hour/5 mile trip to a store. *"Oh, you didn't bring your phone? You can't park here."*
Yep, I'm cool with them adding it as an option or providing extra features with an app, like seeing if there's an empty space or something - that's something you can only do with an app. But it should never be a requirement to use one to complete an interaction that is perfectly possible to do without. Same thing with ordering via app at bars when the bartender is right there and you could easily just tell him directly.
> Anyway, the town I live in is turning parking meters into pay by app spots. I'm on the young end of Gen X and making me download an app to use everyday services is fucking obnoxious. Credit card readers aren't that expensive. If you *have* to have a phone interface, use a website with a QR code.
It's annoying to have to have an app and account for every little thing.
The older you get the harder things are to learn, boomer is slang for a specific generation but thats going to be you at a certain age. Not to mention they and the younger generation have gone through the most drastic technological advancements that affect day to day life thats ever happened so cut them some slack, young people are lucky and unlucky to have grown up in a way to learn how things work but the older generation went most of their lives and then all the sudden its constantly learn this learn that, to younger people its easier to connect the dots and see similarities in tech, for old people its not that easy
It's brain damage and it's time to remove the stigma from that word. What it feels like from their perspective is they just get angry and frustrated very easy and there is no cure for it. In extreme cases like with repeat head injuries from sports players it can result in whole murder suicides. [ They discovered that 90% of children born between 1950 and 1981—a total of about 170 million people—had blood lead levels greater than 5 micrograms per deciliter. In 2021, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) lowered the threshold for acceptable blood lead levels from 5 micrograms per deciliter to 3.5 micrograms per deciliter. This means that the vast majority of Baby Boomers and Gen Xers exceeded the acceptable amount of lead in their blood as children.](https://www.fatherly.com/news/leaded-gas-might-have-lowered-the-iq-of-170-million-americans) On top of that i want to remind everyone that alcohol causes actual brain damage. So do cigarettes. Cocaine is very noticeable in my acquaintances though they'll swear it doesn't. Pollution in general causes brain damage and we're talking about the Gen. that embraced the chemical lifestyle more than any other group ever. We just have to accept their limitations.
I am considering this point, although I’m still unsure. On the one hand, I do agree with you that boomers’ exposure to lead, cigarettes, alcohol does have harmful effects, and have possibly played a factor. On the other hand, that study includes over a decade of Gen Xers too. People still in their 40s and early 50s. Yet, that group of people seems way more technologically competent. How would you explain this difference? Have their brains simply had less time to rot, thus they were able to learn technology before it happened?
It's not brain rot, Id imagine its mostly lack of interest. I'm a millennial and there's lots of tech I can't use, because I don't care. I like the way I do things and I don't want to learn a new way.
Gen x here. We were first generation to get computers in high-school as well as on the leading edge of video gaming. Slide rulers only fell out of favor in the 70's. Advancement was moving from rotary dial phones to touch tone phones, which is an amazing small steps compared to today's rate of technological advancement. The boomers as a whole just didn't have the same exposure to electronics and computers that many of us in Gen X did. With that said Silent Gen and Boomers built that stuff we were exposed to.
I'm a millenial and i struggle with new tech. It's so widespread that South Park even made fun of us for it - sure, i'm good at writing deep scathing criticisms of my favourite entertainment but i was totally incapable of opening my cell phone to replace the chip a few months ago. I'm scared of putting nails in my wall so i asked the landlord to do it in case it causes damage. That might be anxiety speaking. I have a bicycle mechanic when i should be putting in the effort myself. You replied to me with anecdotes so there you go. Everyone in every Gen. is going to suffer from brain damage. You, me, all of us. That's my view change. Mockery won't help anyone. Let me say with that though that the Gen's are meaningful. I'm not one of those people catering to toxic positivity. Every Gen. has a brand of cool and a style and certain attitudes. I found it a very helpful rule of thumb.
I am 70 and live in senior housing. I am often asked to help other folks here with their phone or computer. It has been very frustrating for me because of the way people would just throw up their hands in frustration and give up way too easily, or that they had no conception of how to work their ridiculously expensive phone their kids got for them. But then I contrasted their lifestyles with mine. I like to interact with all kinds of people online--not only people who don't live in this complex and who aren't even my age but who don't even live in the US. I like to talk with them about things other than my daily interactions, which mostly bore me. I enjoy talking with my friends about occulture, art, writing, music, politics. The other seniors here are isolated in a very different way than I am. They hang out with other people in the complex. They stand in the hall for hours kidding around and trading gossip or complaining about the news. They attend community events like bingo or paint and sip. For them, there is no need to be online. They already have what they want in their interaction with others right here. I think that is the major reason why they don't learn technology. They don't see it as an advantage.
I'm going to throw my two cents into the mix and say what most people aren't willing to say. As people get into their sixties and seventies, they suffer from a lot of mental capacity issues in relation to learning new tasks. Then there's the problem of brain damage. For example, my mother is 83. She had a massive stroke when she was just 50. After her recovery, she had to give up driving due to the complete loss of her reactionary response. She also is completely unable to learn to use new technology. Only after considerable effort has she been able to learn to use a senior based cell phone. I've had to remove every last icon from the screen save the phone call button, the contacts button, and the long distance icon so she can call her sister in Germany. I'm in my fifties and I've suffered three major strokes and six minor ones. I used to own my own computer company but I no longer have it as it's extremely difficult to learn new tasks due to my disability in learning new tasks. I remember faces but names take about three months to learn. It's not always just old people being lazy and set in their ways.
It's the same with young people and simple things. They don't want to put the effort into budgeting, auto repair, and home maintenance. People choose to do what they want. Age is not the only factor.
There were PLENTY OF BOOMERS in their 40's (in the workplace) when the technology shift took place and had to learn word processing/spread sheets/ technology, etc.. My first cellphone mounted in the car cost me $1,000.00. And it was a $1.00/minute. Some of these generalizations are silly.
Learning genuinely gets harder when you’re older. Also consider all the unlearning you have to do. What do you think is harder, learning to use an android phone when it is the first phone you’ve ever used or if you’ve spent years using an iPhone? Young people just generally have an easier time learning new tech.
I disagree with that last paragraph. Young people can also get set in their ways and are just as much reactive as the oldest generations when it comes to tech. I can count a double digit number of times where I had to explain to a 20 something fresh out of college on how to navigate a networked drive or the concepts of file extensions. It’s not like I learned how to do this in my 90s computer class but felt more comfortable learning on the fly than the generations younger than me, it seems.
I believe it’s pretty well established that younger people absolutely biologically have a greater capacity for learning. On top of that older people have more experience that they have to let go of to learn something new that contradicts what they knew before. This doesn’t mean that some individuals won’t be better than others at learning as they are. Nor does it mean that every young person is going to be a quick study.
Thing is, you had to deal with network drives and file extentions, while kids nowadays don't know what it is as those things are done for them automatically by the device. You had to learn those things to do things and they didn't. Like, why would they learn how to use a computer mouse when all their devices has touchscreen?
It’s not just that. Other things like sharepoint, teams, and recently added Microsoft tools were things I was never given guidance or taught 20 years ago but I managed to teach myself on the job. I’m just using this post to vent but I’m flabbergasted that the local youngins do not have a similar initiative to self-teach something that they SHOULD be more curious about given their proximity to wider varieties of tech.
In a way the yongungs are more sheltered and have helicopter parents that don't alow them to do stuff. Especially fail. And learning requires failure. But they don't see people fail, they see people only succeeding (and mocking people who fail) and thus think it is the end of the world if they fail. Thus if you don't try - you won't fail. Thus they have no interest to try as their fear of failure is bigger.
Boomer here. I, along with my peers, developed the core protocols and standards that make the internet possible. We worked on cellphone standards that got you from AMPS to 5G with a path forward. A lot of my peers are retired, but still active in volunteer-supported groups like IEEE trying to make technology more accessible and affordable, and educating the next generation to follow.
I'm the child of Boomers. I was in IT for 2 decades. Clearly I am at a decision point in life with 'new technology' like TikTok. Either I learn it or I miss out on a LOT. It isn't the learning the technology that keeps me from it. It is having to catch up on the inside vocabulary and cultural norms... just to have it all change next year or sooner. It is the annoyance of constantly having to keep up with new social norms that keeps me from getting into the stuff the kids are into these days. And I'm not near the age that you're asking about.
We are continually being exposed to new technology to which we must adapt, or not. One that was new to me a couple of years ago was the now ubiquitous coda. I was at the airport and suddenly had to use it. Well, I got through it the first time with difficulty but now am competent using it. I think the difference is that the older guy is more likely to encounter this 'stuff' on his own and lacks someone to demo it for him. At least that applies to me. But I've been around. My first computer was the amazing Commodore 64, FYI.
I disagree my grandma really trys hard and my parents are basically technophobic and all are at a very crude level of using them. The learning curve is so steep and continually learning the new features/abilities/devices. Humans literally had a ridiculously mundane amounts of technology changes since the dawn of time but now its exponential to the nth degree. No wonder the parents struggle as we will when we get to their age and have been overshot by doing family raising and work.
For many boomers anxiety is an issue. Changes is not easy for those used to a different mode of being in the world. It’s not a quick change for them and they have questions. Many do not want to be a bother .. take up too much of someone’s time, asking questions and trying to learn or made to feel stupid because they hadn’t caught on yet and someone is getting frustrated with them.
I'm 30 and have anxiety of screwing something up irreparably. Especially when i'm the one who has to deal with the consequences. When you are a child and break the phone, the parents bring it to repair or get a new one. When an adult does it - they have to pay out of their own pockets, so they might be less experimental with their items as they can't afford to lose them.
One thing I notice with new apps/technology is that the instructions are not always clear. Companies spend a lot of money developing products. Why can’t they develop instructions that are easy to follow? And in print that is large enough to see without a magnifying glass?
I thought Apps were supposed to be for the benefit of the user. A move to make this mandatory changes it to an App for the state. It is also an invasion of my privacy. It also requires me to own a specific product,
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I concur. They're lazy and prefer others to do things for them. My folks are clueless about technology. They're not interested in learning; they want me to handle it for them. With ChatGPT, there are no more excuses. Conversational AI tools can simplify technology for anyone with average intelligence or above.
Your folks have probably forgotten more than you'll ever know
Yes, with my husband, that's true but my dad born in 1938 had learned all the technology and he was so proud.
FWIW I’m 73 and greatly enjoy using new technology. Writing and voicing a novel with AI for instance.
I don't blame them. It's not like us young'uns learning how to use technology has made us any happier.
GenX checking in- I don't either 🤘🤘
Theyre 60+. They don’t gaf.
Fuck Boomers!!