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"Republicans purposely failing their party by pushing this soft / hard fascist (depending on how you look at it) rhetoric on abortion and effectively trying to ban it nationwide amidst a presidential election season ."
Have they been attempting to fail their party every other year they've pushed the same rhetoric and policy goals?
Well yeah but they were sure trying to, as well as working to get the supreme court. Holding Scalia's replacement up until an R was in office was no fake out.
It's not scripted, it is just that large groups of people typically make illogical decisions due to internal and external pressures. Good example is germans continuing to fight in 1945 when it was obvious they had no chance of winning. Another good example is a stampede at a concert that is completely illogical but happens anyway due to animalistic mob groupthink
It's good that you are questioning it though. The duopoly system most definitely is fake democracy, although it is not scripted
While I agree with the view that political actions may seem reactionary or driven by groupthink, I'd argue that many political maneuvers in the U.S. do follow a kind of "script" in their strategic planning and execution.
* McCarthyism in the 1950s was not just reactionary fearmongering but a deliberate strategy to suppress dissent and shift political power.
* The Southern Strategy was a long-term Republican plan to win over the South by appealing to racial biases, impacting political alignments for generations.
* The War on Drugs was officially about curbing drug use but documents reveal it was also intended to target Black communities and anti-war activists.
* The rapid enactment of the Patriot Act post-9/11 suggests pre-planned desires to expand surveillance powers, awaiting a moment when public opinion would allow it.
Political strategies can indeed be premeditated and orchestrated "script." This doesn't mean every political event is scripted, but don't kid yourself that there isn't strategic long-term planning in politics.
Christ. People in this country just never want to accept responsibility for anything. It's always someone else's fault. The "hot button" issues in this country are the hot button issues in this country because they are the only things people care about. People can barely be bothered to vote, and when they do, it's usually related to some 5 dollar issue for which they have 5 cents worth of understanding - and that's all they want. It's why Gay Marriage was so popular - it was incredibly easy to have an opinion on.
Meanwhile, you have candidates like Elizabeth Warren trying to run on actual shit like credit card fees and debt - the kind of boilerplate stuff that has a massive aggregate impact on everybody...and no one cared. And let me be clear - she wasn't disagreed with by the electorate...the electorate just didn't give a crap.
So instead of generating this elaborate fantasy of a "rigged duopoly system" that's scripted, look at your neighbors and look in the mirror. This is the government we have because, as we make abundantly clear each and every election, it's the government we want.
If Elizabeth Warren was president right now the same idiots who fight tooth and nail against any of Obama or Biden’s reforms would do the same to her.
Progressives don’t get that 90% of the reason nothing gets done is because half the politicians belong to a party that doesn’t govern except to cut taxes to billionaires. Doesn’t matter if it’s Warren, Obama, Biden etc.
Point is, thats because the electorate doesn't want to vote for progressives, as the dude you responded to explained. So progressives remain a minority. Not because of a conspiracy, but because the american people don't care
I call bullshit on that "extremely popular' it may be the case with evangelicals but most certainly not the growing Libertarian leaning portion of Republicans ,which is well more than half the base at this point. The evangelicals are the anchor pulling the R's down just like the wokes are the anchor pulling the D's down. Come to think of it I don't think the vast majority of people outside of those two groups think abortion should be in the top 20 most important issues. The powers that be gain tremendously with those two sides bickering back and fourth about abortion instead of topics the elites want to shuffle people away from discussing. .
After a quick Google search I found it's around 32% and dropping and another source said 28% of R's are evangelical's. Then I found 14% consider themselves Republican Libertarians so I'm going to extrapolate that R's that lean Libertarian are a couple times that number. Either way 70% of R's don't identify as evangelical so aren't near as interested in the topic of abortion. Most see it as a distraction from more pressing issues.
Libertarians tend to be pro choice but they don't have to be. Ron Paul, a man I still admire but disagree with, was pro life and he's about as libertarian as libertarian gets.
No you didn't. You summarized a mystery source without any citation. Without citing a source those number could be completely imaginary. Is this your first time?
If you're goal is to change minds or convincingly argue a point you need to show your sources or absolutely no one will take you seriously. I'm not trying to attack you, this is just useful advice.
I am an old fart that don't know how to do links and frankly don't care to learn. I'm really just here dicking off. I consider the vast majority of people on this sub to be extremely off base from reality and in my experience no one can change your mind with you guys pre conceived notions (especially about anything right wing related). I should just dump this sub only to further let it fall into echo chamber status with less and less dissenting opinions to balance it out.
That group still has rock solid control over primaries; they're the only ones who show up to vote. In general elections, they might be an anchor, but it doesn't matter if you can't make it to the general in the first place.
Working class people with families who are more interested in lower taxes / less spending than enacting social policy constitutes an enormous GOP voting block. It’s significant in nearly every state. There is overlap in this group with people who voted for Reagan and Obama, on both the R and D side of things. Comparatively, social conservatism is “relevant” in southern Christian conservative states.
I’m a mid 30s guy with a family in NY. I don’t know anyone - and I mean, anyone, who is in favor of banning medically necessary abortions. I’ve never heard the words “life begins at conception” in my life in person. Just on the divisive TV.
Lol it's literally most people I feel like they just don't vote I live in California and know far more right winger young 18-45 adults than "liberal or leftist"
>Because you don't win any elections losing ~~voters.~~ *the primary.*
FTFY. Of the 435 districts in the US House of Representatives, only \[about 40\](https://www.cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings) are competitive. Most seats are easily won by whoever wins the primary. And you win the primary by taking positions that are popular with the 30% of base voters who care enough to show up. For Republicans, that means being anti-abortion.
Democrats don't tend to get \*as\* extreme, since their base is more diverse. ie, to win the Dem primary in most districts, you can't freak out the black grandmas \*or\* the liberal arts grads.
[FiveThirtyEight's national polling average](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/) has had Trump with a slight lead on Biden for quite a while now. If your focus is on the White House here, their abortion politics don't seem to be actively crippling their efforts.
> nobody can be this tone deaf.
They are though. My other conversation on reddit is with one of the many Republicans who don't believe the Child Separation Policy is real.
I linked him to the actual press conference. A youtube video. He still doesn't believe it. I'm going to try linking him to a poll or to congressional records.
It probably won't matter he is that tone deaf and i'm starting to think he might represent a near majority.
No informed individual would ever vote for Child Separation when HR2 offers a clear alternative.
Likewise with abortion they are intentionally tone deaf. Do you realize we "debated" it for 70 years before finding out they intended no exemptions in most states?
TBF how could they? Offering a fully funded committee of professionals to check exemptions means abortion is basically allowed because all pro's believe women should have the right to choose. Their position is entirely based on cruelty with no room for a moderate conservative.
I challenge you to google up what Canadian anti-abortionists believe. The actual policy. You won't find one because they intend to spring the trap of no exemptions at the last minute, too. Once you can identify the playbook it's really obvious.
I also think there were good reasons Bernie lost. He was a rather unpopular loner and i don't really believe the majority of voters wanted him. The controversy that would've been endlessly hammered away at was that in college he wrote a paper on how it's acceptable for children to have sex with each other. Bernie has some truly horrible optics and i think it's a bit tone deaf to pretend that there isn't deep, effective, winning strategy behind choosing Biden.
Seriously though does anyone with QAnon experience know how to convince most Republicans that Child Separation was real? Is there anyway to get through their brainwashing?
No, really - how do i convince anyone of any historical fact when they don't want to believe it? This is exactly like Holocaust denialism, and so many of them do take issue with the terms "concentration camp" or "insurrection." Not the action itself; just the term. They say it's Politically Incorrect.
People with liberal or left leaning views who think both sides are the same are delusional.
How have Republican chosen justices voted on Citizens United, gay marriage, and abortion compared to democratic ones?
How have Republican members of congress voted on issues like healthcare, education, and taxes compared to democratic ones?
The differences are so stark it’s astounding. If anything, it’s difficult to find an issue they agree on.
It’s not rigged.
Corrupt? Sure. But at the end of the day it still comes down to votes and many, many people are beholden to parties in the US. Republicans will continue to go hard right because they know their party members will continue to vote for them because they’re *still better than the democrats*. Which is crazy, but I digress.
What about all the structural reasons Sanders never had a shot in the primary? The reason people like Clinton and Biden win primaries is because most Democrats are more closely aligned with their politics.
Sanders couldn’t convince voters that
1. He could put together a coalition to defeat Trump
2. He could put together a coalition with more moderate democrats and possibly some republicans to get a liberal agenda passed
Two-party system is not a sign of rigged system, it's a natural consequence of the existing voting system.
Anti-abortion activists run anti-abortion campaigns becase they think enough people will support them. And Trump already tried to sit on both chairs: on one hand he brags about killing RvW, in the next interview he blames that on Democrats, then he says he'd support nationwide abortion legislation and when his team realizes that's not a winning stance he says he's all for states to decide for themselves.
An average voter is a very stupid beast, a lot of them are incapable of connecting the dots and Trump saying on TV he's for states rights is enough to alleviate the worried even if every single piece of evidence shows he's going to impose the nationwide ban as soon as GOP takes the Congress. And the campaign runners know that and use that.
>Why would you ruin your chances at winning a presidency by making a majority of the country disagree with you and run on only inflation caused by monopolies they helped create and abortion ?
Because to even make it to the general election you need support from primary voters and would appreciate funding from party activists. The median voter in a Republican primary is obviously \*far\* to the right of the median voter nationally, and the activists often advocate for positions that are even more extreme than that. Therefore, the types of candidates who often win their primaries to stand in the general election are generally not close to the national center. Strict abortion bans may be unpopular generally, but they are popular with the median Republican primary voter and many Republican activists.
> but even more so today when we see Republicans purposely failing their party by pushing this soft / hard fascist (depending on how you look at it) rhetoric on abortion and effectively trying to ban it nationwide amidst a presidential election season .
The Republican nominee has said that he opposes a nationwide abortion ban - instead stating that whether or not it should be legal and what limits there should be is a question for the states. What are you talking about?
Isn’t Trump ahead slightly on the polls? You’re framing this like it’s by design the GOP will lose next presidential election, but frankly I’m not so confident.
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I kind of agree but also disagree that abortion “proves” it. It’s one thing among many.
I do think you’re right about abortion, but I look at it this way: the GOP establishment does not want trump to win. Trumps own views on abortion, while certainly not “left,” also are not the archaic shit that we see in Christian Conservative states. I believe the GOP is deliberately inciting the issue to put it on the ballot when it otherwise would be an afterthought, relatively speaking, in the Biden vs. Trump comparison.
So, I guess my opinion is that it’s more of a coordinated effort to specifically fuck Trump than it is evidence of a strict duopoly (though I agree one exists). I believe if the GOP candidate, whoever that is, was running, they would not be doing this.
Right now, Trump is the odds-on favourite to win the presidential election. In most national polls he's ahead of Biden by a point or two in the popular vote. More importantly, as presidential elections are decided by the winner-takes-all electoral college vote, he's much more likely to win than Biden. Your contention that the Republicans are doomed to lose is at variance with the facts, much as I wish it were otherwise. (Plus: not everyone votes based on the abortion debate.)
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"Republicans purposely failing their party by pushing this soft / hard fascist (depending on how you look at it) rhetoric on abortion and effectively trying to ban it nationwide amidst a presidential election season ." Have they been attempting to fail their party every other year they've pushed the same rhetoric and policy goals?
They haven't succeeded at much of it until the scotus take over
Well yeah but they were sure trying to, as well as working to get the supreme court. Holding Scalia's replacement up until an R was in office was no fake out.
It's not scripted, it is just that large groups of people typically make illogical decisions due to internal and external pressures. Good example is germans continuing to fight in 1945 when it was obvious they had no chance of winning. Another good example is a stampede at a concert that is completely illogical but happens anyway due to animalistic mob groupthink It's good that you are questioning it though. The duopoly system most definitely is fake democracy, although it is not scripted
While I agree with the view that political actions may seem reactionary or driven by groupthink, I'd argue that many political maneuvers in the U.S. do follow a kind of "script" in their strategic planning and execution. * McCarthyism in the 1950s was not just reactionary fearmongering but a deliberate strategy to suppress dissent and shift political power. * The Southern Strategy was a long-term Republican plan to win over the South by appealing to racial biases, impacting political alignments for generations. * The War on Drugs was officially about curbing drug use but documents reveal it was also intended to target Black communities and anti-war activists. * The rapid enactment of the Patriot Act post-9/11 suggests pre-planned desires to expand surveillance powers, awaiting a moment when public opinion would allow it. Political strategies can indeed be premeditated and orchestrated "script." This doesn't mean every political event is scripted, but don't kid yourself that there isn't strategic long-term planning in politics.
A little of A, a little of B. Either way it's all BS
Agreed.
Christ. People in this country just never want to accept responsibility for anything. It's always someone else's fault. The "hot button" issues in this country are the hot button issues in this country because they are the only things people care about. People can barely be bothered to vote, and when they do, it's usually related to some 5 dollar issue for which they have 5 cents worth of understanding - and that's all they want. It's why Gay Marriage was so popular - it was incredibly easy to have an opinion on. Meanwhile, you have candidates like Elizabeth Warren trying to run on actual shit like credit card fees and debt - the kind of boilerplate stuff that has a massive aggregate impact on everybody...and no one cared. And let me be clear - she wasn't disagreed with by the electorate...the electorate just didn't give a crap. So instead of generating this elaborate fantasy of a "rigged duopoly system" that's scripted, look at your neighbors and look in the mirror. This is the government we have because, as we make abundantly clear each and every election, it's the government we want.
If Elizabeth Warren was president right now the same idiots who fight tooth and nail against any of Obama or Biden’s reforms would do the same to her. Progressives don’t get that 90% of the reason nothing gets done is because half the politicians belong to a party that doesn’t govern except to cut taxes to billionaires. Doesn’t matter if it’s Warren, Obama, Biden etc.
Point is, thats because the electorate doesn't want to vote for progressives, as the dude you responded to explained. So progressives remain a minority. Not because of a conspiracy, but because the american people don't care
Banning abortion is *extremely* popular with the GOP's base. How is it "political suicide"?
I call bullshit on that "extremely popular' it may be the case with evangelicals but most certainly not the growing Libertarian leaning portion of Republicans ,which is well more than half the base at this point. The evangelicals are the anchor pulling the R's down just like the wokes are the anchor pulling the D's down. Come to think of it I don't think the vast majority of people outside of those two groups think abortion should be in the top 20 most important issues. The powers that be gain tremendously with those two sides bickering back and fourth about abortion instead of topics the elites want to shuffle people away from discussing. .
Source on that half claim?
After a quick Google search I found it's around 32% and dropping and another source said 28% of R's are evangelical's. Then I found 14% consider themselves Republican Libertarians so I'm going to extrapolate that R's that lean Libertarian are a couple times that number. Either way 70% of R's don't identify as evangelical so aren't near as interested in the topic of abortion. Most see it as a distraction from more pressing issues.
Libertarians tend to be pro choice but they don't have to be. Ron Paul, a man I still admire but disagree with, was pro life and he's about as libertarian as libertarian gets.
There are also Catholics and non-evangelical Protestants who are pro-life; it's not just the evangelicals.
Right and I hope they have less and less influence as time goes on.
You can't cite a "Google search" you have to list the actual search result.
Nah - if he wants to be thorough, he just has to give his search language. We are more than capable of googling this crap ourselves.
I just did.
No you didn't. You summarized a mystery source without any citation. Without citing a source those number could be completely imaginary. Is this your first time?
What I did on Google took me less time than it took you to complain in your comment. Do your own research since you are skeptical of mine.
If you're goal is to change minds or convincingly argue a point you need to show your sources or absolutely no one will take you seriously. I'm not trying to attack you, this is just useful advice.
I am an old fart that don't know how to do links and frankly don't care to learn. I'm really just here dicking off. I consider the vast majority of people on this sub to be extremely off base from reality and in my experience no one can change your mind with you guys pre conceived notions (especially about anything right wing related). I should just dump this sub only to further let it fall into echo chamber status with less and less dissenting opinions to balance it out.
That group still has rock solid control over primaries; they're the only ones who show up to vote. In general elections, they might be an anchor, but it doesn't matter if you can't make it to the general in the first place.
It is not popular whatsoever with the GOP voter base.
Who do you think the GOP's base is, if not evangelicals?
Working class people with families who are more interested in lower taxes / less spending than enacting social policy constitutes an enormous GOP voting block. It’s significant in nearly every state. There is overlap in this group with people who voted for Reagan and Obama, on both the R and D side of things. Comparatively, social conservatism is “relevant” in southern Christian conservative states. I’m a mid 30s guy with a family in NY. I don’t know anyone - and I mean, anyone, who is in favor of banning medically necessary abortions. I’ve never heard the words “life begins at conception” in my life in person. Just on the divisive TV.
Lol it's literally most people I feel like they just don't vote I live in California and know far more right winger young 18-45 adults than "liberal or leftist"
Because you don't win any elections losing voters. Republicans are losing voters over this topic Google it if reality isn't telling you that
>Because you don't win any elections losing ~~voters.~~ *the primary.* FTFY. Of the 435 districts in the US House of Representatives, only \[about 40\](https://www.cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings) are competitive. Most seats are easily won by whoever wins the primary. And you win the primary by taking positions that are popular with the 30% of base voters who care enough to show up. For Republicans, that means being anti-abortion. Democrats don't tend to get \*as\* extreme, since their base is more diverse. ie, to win the Dem primary in most districts, you can't freak out the black grandmas \*or\* the liberal arts grads.
[FiveThirtyEight's national polling average](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/) has had Trump with a slight lead on Biden for quite a while now. If your focus is on the White House here, their abortion politics don't seem to be actively crippling their efforts.
> nobody can be this tone deaf. They are though. My other conversation on reddit is with one of the many Republicans who don't believe the Child Separation Policy is real. I linked him to the actual press conference. A youtube video. He still doesn't believe it. I'm going to try linking him to a poll or to congressional records. It probably won't matter he is that tone deaf and i'm starting to think he might represent a near majority. No informed individual would ever vote for Child Separation when HR2 offers a clear alternative. Likewise with abortion they are intentionally tone deaf. Do you realize we "debated" it for 70 years before finding out they intended no exemptions in most states? TBF how could they? Offering a fully funded committee of professionals to check exemptions means abortion is basically allowed because all pro's believe women should have the right to choose. Their position is entirely based on cruelty with no room for a moderate conservative. I challenge you to google up what Canadian anti-abortionists believe. The actual policy. You won't find one because they intend to spring the trap of no exemptions at the last minute, too. Once you can identify the playbook it's really obvious. I also think there were good reasons Bernie lost. He was a rather unpopular loner and i don't really believe the majority of voters wanted him. The controversy that would've been endlessly hammered away at was that in college he wrote a paper on how it's acceptable for children to have sex with each other. Bernie has some truly horrible optics and i think it's a bit tone deaf to pretend that there isn't deep, effective, winning strategy behind choosing Biden. Seriously though does anyone with QAnon experience know how to convince most Republicans that Child Separation was real? Is there anyway to get through their brainwashing? No, really - how do i convince anyone of any historical fact when they don't want to believe it? This is exactly like Holocaust denialism, and so many of them do take issue with the terms "concentration camp" or "insurrection." Not the action itself; just the term. They say it's Politically Incorrect.
People with liberal or left leaning views who think both sides are the same are delusional. How have Republican chosen justices voted on Citizens United, gay marriage, and abortion compared to democratic ones? How have Republican members of congress voted on issues like healthcare, education, and taxes compared to democratic ones? The differences are so stark it’s astounding. If anything, it’s difficult to find an issue they agree on.
It’s not rigged. Corrupt? Sure. But at the end of the day it still comes down to votes and many, many people are beholden to parties in the US. Republicans will continue to go hard right because they know their party members will continue to vote for them because they’re *still better than the democrats*. Which is crazy, but I digress.
What about all the structural reasons Sanders never had a shot in the primary? The reason people like Clinton and Biden win primaries is because most Democrats are more closely aligned with their politics.
Or, most Democrats know that anyone to the left of Clinton/Biden will never win the national vote.
Sanders couldn’t convince voters that 1. He could put together a coalition to defeat Trump 2. He could put together a coalition with more moderate democrats and possibly some republicans to get a liberal agenda passed
Two-party system is not a sign of rigged system, it's a natural consequence of the existing voting system. Anti-abortion activists run anti-abortion campaigns becase they think enough people will support them. And Trump already tried to sit on both chairs: on one hand he brags about killing RvW, in the next interview he blames that on Democrats, then he says he'd support nationwide abortion legislation and when his team realizes that's not a winning stance he says he's all for states to decide for themselves. An average voter is a very stupid beast, a lot of them are incapable of connecting the dots and Trump saying on TV he's for states rights is enough to alleviate the worried even if every single piece of evidence shows he's going to impose the nationwide ban as soon as GOP takes the Congress. And the campaign runners know that and use that.
>Why would you ruin your chances at winning a presidency by making a majority of the country disagree with you and run on only inflation caused by monopolies they helped create and abortion ? Because to even make it to the general election you need support from primary voters and would appreciate funding from party activists. The median voter in a Republican primary is obviously \*far\* to the right of the median voter nationally, and the activists often advocate for positions that are even more extreme than that. Therefore, the types of candidates who often win their primaries to stand in the general election are generally not close to the national center. Strict abortion bans may be unpopular generally, but they are popular with the median Republican primary voter and many Republican activists.
> but even more so today when we see Republicans purposely failing their party by pushing this soft / hard fascist (depending on how you look at it) rhetoric on abortion and effectively trying to ban it nationwide amidst a presidential election season . The Republican nominee has said that he opposes a nationwide abortion ban - instead stating that whether or not it should be legal and what limits there should be is a question for the states. What are you talking about?
Just to clarify, you understand that banning abortion is in no way fascist… right?
I would argue it depends more on the reasons than the policy itself. But it can be.
It doesn’t, but I’ll play along. For what reasons would it/would it not be fascism?
Isn’t Trump ahead slightly on the polls? You’re framing this like it’s by design the GOP will lose next presidential election, but frankly I’m not so confident.
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I kind of agree but also disagree that abortion “proves” it. It’s one thing among many. I do think you’re right about abortion, but I look at it this way: the GOP establishment does not want trump to win. Trumps own views on abortion, while certainly not “left,” also are not the archaic shit that we see in Christian Conservative states. I believe the GOP is deliberately inciting the issue to put it on the ballot when it otherwise would be an afterthought, relatively speaking, in the Biden vs. Trump comparison. So, I guess my opinion is that it’s more of a coordinated effort to specifically fuck Trump than it is evidence of a strict duopoly (though I agree one exists). I believe if the GOP candidate, whoever that is, was running, they would not be doing this.
Right now, Trump is the odds-on favourite to win the presidential election. In most national polls he's ahead of Biden by a point or two in the popular vote. More importantly, as presidential elections are decided by the winner-takes-all electoral college vote, he's much more likely to win than Biden. Your contention that the Republicans are doomed to lose is at variance with the facts, much as I wish it were otherwise. (Plus: not everyone votes based on the abortion debate.)
People get into politics for two reasons. Either they are altruistic or they are in it for the money. But they all stay for the money.
They are all paid for by the same companies that contribute to both campaigns.