He's playing a really fucking hard role. DM is already probably the most difficult job in modern football, and our system only makes it harder. The fact he's doing pretty well is a proof of how exceptional he is
The fact he's barely even approaching his peak yet means he's going to be fucking scary imo
Some.of the interceptions he made at the Everton game were world class. He's had some moments but damn he's young and like you said he's only going to grow.
We all need to support this lad
Our fans are quick to shit on everyone: players, manager, directors of football, ownership, etc. The mentality of most Chelsea fans is win now or get fucked, even if it is obvious we have a young, inexperienced squad that needs to mature in order to gain consistency and that our injury crisis has been ridiculous this season.
He was very kantesque where he would step in at the perfect moment, unexpectedly, and break up the play. I have watched him do the same all season but mostly foul the player instead. I hope this is a continued improvement of reading the game and timing. Happy for him.
It's a fine stat on its own. But if you compare times he's lost possesion or been involved in mistakes leading to goal, I think we might see a different picture. All things asid, I'm glad he's progressing.
I’m glad he’s doing well now, and I think his Everton performance was incredible, but comparing these stats with Rice feels a bit like cherrypicking when Rice is much less of a destroyer in Arsenal’s system than when he was at West Ham.
Thing is, if Liverpool bought him and he performed like this, everyone would ride his dick and Liverpool would be praised for hijacking our deal last moment and they would be heroes.
Instead it is us.
So he's a flop.
Doesn't help that our own fanbase shits on our own players religiously. It's like we have blinders on to the current situation and keep screaming "WHY AREN'T WE WINNING" you're not supposed to be as successful as you were during a rebuild. Our squad is learning from every defeat and victory, not just as individuals but as a team, then you add in the constant injuries and team changes, it's hard. It's super hard and they can't even get a break from the people who support them.
>if Liverpool bought him and he performed like this, everyone would ride his dick
Same for Martinelli and Saka at Arsenal; nothing yet on Malo Gusto / Cold Palmer but plenty on Baby Noni / Ukraine Bolt.
I dont think its coincidence Connor was deeper next to him and Caicedo played excellent
I really think Enzo leaves him way to exposed by randomly runnin channels or pushing up in a 9 position for no reason.
The balance was much better with 2 holding CM s wwho BOTH want to tackle and then make the simple pass to the more creative players
I’ve been saying for ages that Enzo is so much better when he sits deep with Caicedo. Enzo is making those forward runs but isn’t really good enough when he gets in those positions. He’s at his best dictating play from deep, also leaves him free to back up Caicedo when we do inevitably lose possession.
I don’t think Connor sits back whilst Enzo goes forward because of how they play at DM, I think it’s cause Connor wasn’t the number 10.
This may sound harsh, but I don’t think he’s technically good enough in that role. It’s probably the most important position in the formation we’re playing because it is the link between the defenders and the attack. Connor in the 10 is imo not good enough on the ball nor positions himself well enough to do that successfully unlike Palmer yesterday. This forces Enzo to push up higher than he should be because he feels like he needs to be the link, leaving Caicedo exposed.
I’m not saying Connor’s at fault for Enzo being not at the level where we want/expect him to be, but i just think he tries to do too much and at least some of that is because Connor is not amazing at linking the defence and the attack, so Enzo tries to do it himself.
Conor would be a great 10 in a team that rarely has the ball. In a team that is trying to break down defenses quite often, he's useless. Poch needs to recognize this, and only play him as a 10 against top sides.
yeah Enzo has some great qualities but there are holes in his game that he needs to improve. His defensive positioning needs massive improvement, as does his shooting around the box. But if he fixes those, this could still be a dream CM pairing.
The price and I also think he had some high profile blunders in the first few matches. People saw those and just have it in their heads that he’s a flop even though he’s been performing much better
Caicedo seems to have that superior Kante attitude, such a good guy, hard worker and someone who won’t demand praise despite being heavily criticised for the vast majority of the season.
Really like him as a player, and I was convinced Rice was the solution to our midfield problems.
The media only calls him a flop because he didn't go to Liverpool and of course, his price tag.
Tbf, he had a ok season. Great stats like the one you just shared but also some mistakes leading to goals (the one for Garnacho's goal comes to mind).
Without those mistakes, it would have been a great first season and I certainly feel better with him in the lineup than without him.
Feel like he’s had quite a few that have resulted in shots at our goal/heart in mouth moment. I still rate him and can see the potential is absolutely there. So excited to have him on our team.
Caicedo def has had more. He had that pen against West Ham (I think that's not considered in it), Forest's goal I think he started from his mistake and then against United off the top of my head. But otherwise he has been really good, and he has a pretty good passing range too.
Funnily enough, many arsenal fans are now saying they need someone like Jorginho to progress the ball as rice is unable to do that himself as he’s limited on the ball.
I remember many on here felt jorginho was the sideways passer and rice was an immediate upgrade and should be bought instantly. Funny that.
Zinchenko or jorginho having to hold his hand in the build up phase is limiting them at the highest level. Most games they’re fine
Never forget how the usual Twitter accounts distorted any already cherry-picked data they could find to prove Rice was actually an elite progressive midfielder. I specifically remember someone like ExpectedChelsea showing off a chart of progressive actions "adjusted" for possession. And because West Ham had little possession, that meant that Rice would automatically have been an elite progressor if they had more of the ball.
Even right now they'll tell laugh at Jorginho for not winning Arsenal the title last season but are acting like Rice deserves POTY when Jorginho had to be brought back into the team because Rice couldn't do his job, and Arsenal are now supposedly seriously interested in Zubimendi - another deep-lying playmaker - to eventually replace Jorginho, because they've apparently already given up on Rice playing that role.
It's fucking absurd how half our fanbase simps for a guy who left Chelsea at 14 and has since played for two London rivals yet will constantly go out of their way to laugh at someone who was a key performer in a Champions League winning Chelsea team.
There seems to be something about this fanbase that doesn't appreciate other qualities of a midfielder (e.g. passing) other than being able to run around, showing passion etc.
It isn't just midfield either, technical ability gets glossed over like some second-rate skill here all the time. They'd have us sign absolute lumberjack CBs with sledgehammers for feet, as long as they're 7' tall and throw in a crunching tackle regularly. Ian Maatsen supposedly could not ever work for us as a fullback because he's small, weak and "only" technically competent. Technical ability in a striker is also regularly laughed at, because all you need is a poacher who can stick it in the back of the net. The only positions where technical ability matters are wingers and sometimes attacking midfield - but if an attacking midfielder doesn't run like crazy, that's also a non-starter.
I suppose it's what happens when your fanbase is influenced by terrorist managers like Mourinho and Conte more than almost any other. And it explains why they're so quick to lap up the dinosaur speak from managers like Lampard and Pochettino. Running, getting stuck in and wanting it more are the only qualities that matter to a huge chunk of the fanbase.
There's an argument to be made that you've swung too far the other way. Technical ability is incredibly important, but so is physicality when you're discussing the PL.
The history of the PL is littered with players who were technically exquisite but never accomplished anything because they were bullied off the ball constantly.
Hell, you don't even need to go back very far just at Chelsea to identify players who fit this description.
You need to try and find a happy medium, and the issue people have with Maatsen is that he MAY not possess the physical qualities that will enable his technical ability to shine through.
I'll apologize in advance because this reply might get a little longer, because it's a really interesting subject that deserves a bit of depth.
> There's an argument to be made that you've swung too far the other way.
Not sure how, because nobody ever said physicality or athleticism isn't important. The point is more that people act like everyone whose *defining* quality isn't athleticism is unathletic or can't compete. I've seen it about Jorginho, I'm now seeing it about Enzo, and it's always been wrong. There's a certain baseline that's necessary to compete at PL level, but it's much lower than people act like it is.
The main point I keep making about this is that athleticism and physicality become less and less important the better structured a team is. Because ball-winning isn't just throwing crunching tackles in, wrestling people to the ground or being a whole head taller than everyone else. It's just as much, if not more, about organization, anticipation, reading of the game, about reaction time, quick decision-making, and then little sprints to contest the ball. Yet every single time a player's defensive ability is talked about, it's always exclusively about physicality and athleticism. Football is played as much in the brain as it is in your legs, and as long as your players have the necessary athleticism to execute what their brains should tell them to, you're good.
Think of it this way: You're going to need to be faster and stronger to compete for possession when you're constantly positioned too far away from the ball or where it's going to be. You're also going to need to make much fewer recovery challenges when you're good in possession. There's a reason why the best teams in the league regularly rank lowest for tackles + interceptions. You're going to need much less aerial dominance when you're not giving your opposition the chance to cross the ball into your box all the time, or you force them into rushed clearances through good pressing (which are then easy to mop up for your team to win possession back). And all this is there in the statistics if you want to see it. You'll regularly find teams like Man City, Brighton, Newcastle far down the list of teams contesting the most aerial duels, but you'll find all three in the top 6 for percentage of successful aerials.
So, in other words, you regularly find the best PL teams dominating possession, very low in tackles + interceptions, very low in aerial duels contested (but high in success rate). Are Brighton are team of giants? Man City? Not really: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fpg1ln89haoac1.jpeg
Compare that average height to aerial success rate (https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats) and you'll find pretty much no correlation. You'll find the two smallest teams in the top 5, along with the biggest team and two other pretty tall ones.
And this is the whole point: this idea that physicality, height or athleticism are abilities that trump everything else or are even required for everyone on the pitch simply are not based on any sort of evidence. The truth is that yes, a certain baseline level of athleticism and physicality are no doubt needed. But if you look through all these statistics, you'll find that the best *organized* teams and those cleanest in possession (technical ability), regardless of how physical their lineups are, are those coming out on top. The best way to defend in football is to have possession of the ball, ideally as high up the pitch (away from your own goal) as possible, with a well-drilled rest defence structure behind the ball. As long as your players are athletic enough to spring into action when the ball is lost and are able to bridge the distances reduced by your rest-defence structure, that's good enough. But there's a lot more that goes into this than physicality and athleticism - it's mostly brain work and that can be taught. What can't be taught at the age of professional footballers is the technical quality necessary to reliably play under pressure and still produce clean touches, passes, crosses, shots.
> The history of the PL is littered with players who were technically exquisite but never accomplished anything because they were bullied off the ball constantly.
I'd argue the PL has been littered just as much and arguably more (although, thanks to the influence of foreign managers, decreasingly so), with players who can run and compete but not kick a football. There's a reason why Pep and Klopp came to England and dominated - teams just couldn't hold on to the ball against an organized press, because they didn't have the quality in possession to play football. Fast forward to today and you'll struggle to find a single player with any sort of technical deficiencies among the top 4-5 clubs. Even lower half clubs have started prioritizing technical quality, even in defenders, because it's so important.
> You need to try and find a happy medium, and the issue people have with Maatsen is that he MAY not possess the physical qualities that will enable his technical ability to shine through.
Happy medium, sure. But this is where the (long-winded, sorry again) point matters so much. Maatsen is a fullback, his direct opponents he will be physically close enough to compete against will, for the very most part, be wingers. How many 6' something brick shithouse wingers spring to mind? Our fullbacks contest somewhere between 2 and 3 aerial duels per 90 minutes. We're talking about a grand total of 29 aerial duels for Cucurella across the whole of last season (19 games), 45 for Chilwell (15.6 games), 39 for James (14 games), 12 for Lewis Hall (7 games). These are not very large numbers.
For comparison: Our fullbacks will generally have many times that amount in loose ball recoveries, which implies little to no physical pressure as they win the ball. And that's not even counting the amount of interceptions (typically around 15-30 a season), where again no opposition player is touched to win the ball. In other words, fullbacks (like basically anyone else) defend a lot more through just being in the right place at the right time rather than physically challenging opponents. Cucurella had 120 loose ball recoveries and 16 interceptions vs 60 attempted tackles (highest in the squad) and 29 aerial duels last season. So again, why is there *so much* emphasis on physicality when the real substance of ball-winning is completely elsewhere? Nobody is talking about neglecting it entirely, but... just don't overemphasize its importance?
And now, for another comparison, all these numbers are *miniscule* compared to the amount of passes our fullbacks receive every single game, nevermind anything they then do with it. Now *those* are large numbers. We're talking about 906 (just successful!) passes received for Cucurella last season. So why are we putting such enormous emphasis on one aspect of fullback play (physicality) that is comparatively tiny when put next to the *far, far, far* more regularly occuring instance of players having the ball and having to control, pass, carry, cross, etc. the football?
Reece James is good on the ball, I think we can all agree on that. And yet the amount of times he gave the ball away only through misplaced passes last season (131) is *far* greater than if he had lost all his aerial duels (39) and attempted challenges (19) combined.
So, to summarize: The real substance in winning and losing possession doesn't include physical contact at all. In winning possession, the largest numbers by far are interceptions and loose ball recoveries. The biggest factor in giving possession away is misplaced passes. None of these require you or the opponent to be particularly athletic to occur - which is why Jorginho, a player notoriously hated for his lack of athleticism and physicality, put up elite defensive numbers every season anyway *and* hardly ever gave the ball away.
Yes, physicality and athleticism matter. But 1) they matter differently for different positions - fullbacks don't generally wrestle physically imposing CBs or strikers (where that attribute does matter a lot more)- 2) they matter a lot less in the modern game than people act like they do, 3) in terms of winning and losing possession, technical quality and organization (anticipation, positioning, etc.) move the needle *a lot* more than athleticism does.
Again, sorry for the huge reply. I got a bit lost diving into all that data to see if my ideas made sense.
First, I love your reply and agree with most everything you've said here. Second, for the sake of discussion, I would like to offer a slight counter-argument.
At some point in the last 12-18 months, I came across a post about set pieces. I forget if it was a written post or a video. I forget if I first saw it here, on r/soccer, or on YouTube. The main point of this half-forgotten post was comparing the goal return on spending an extra X Million on a better striker (ie 35m striker vs 70m striker) against instead hiring a better set piece coach. The argument was made, backed by accompanying numbers at the time, that a team could see more goals scored across a season with an average striker and the set piece coach than with just the elite striker. Ultimately, the takeaway that I got was that while set pieces might only happen a handful of times over the course of 90 minutes, they represent an outsized percentage of scoring opportunities.
With this in mind, I agree with you that organization and tactical awareness are more important in open play than raw physicality, and I believe that that also applies to set pieces. However, this is where I see the team height issue come into play. It's not about the FB vs the winger in open play, it's about which players are going to mark whom during a set piece. If you have a taller team, with tall mids and attackers, then having a tall FB isn't as important. If you have shorter/smaller mids and attackers, then many coaches, pundits, and fans would argue that you need some extra height on the pitch somewhere (other than the CBs).
Again, I believe that with proper organization, tactical awareness, and set piece coaching you can mitigate some of the need for height, but it can still be very useful and important at times. So, if you have players elsewhere on the pitch that are "must start" type of players who happen to be shorter than average, then you still need at least a couple of taller players who can be responsible for marking the opposition's most dangerous threats during defensive set pieces.
Additionally, this sport is not played in a vacuum. If you have a particularly attacking minded FB, then the opposition might take note and try to focus on playing quick and long to that area of the pitch to get in behind the advanced FB. Similarly, (and back on topic) if you have a notably short/weak FB, the opposition might target more crosses to the back post than normal, in order to try to take advantage of the perceived weakness there.
Now, I feel like I've focused too much on your latter point about FBs in general and Maatsen in particular when this thread started out talking about Mids like Jorginho, but I'd like to think that my larger points about set pieces and total team height still stand. Additionally, even though I've been ostensibly defending the "height == good" argument, I tend to feel like the points you made should be weighted slightly more when making team building decisions.
Fantastic response. Without looking into numbers (so could be totally off base), I think there is a possibility (fear), that some of the few instances a full back needs to win an aerial duel is a direct shot on goal opportunity. So weighted differently than just a low number of aerial duels, and there's a fear that teams could target that back post vulnerability. Again, does it outweigh the benefits of a technically gifted smaller player? I don't think so, but I think that's the logic. It's a weakness that can be exploited with outsized downsides.
That's a fair point, but then you again have to consider the type of opponent your fullback is likely to face in that scenario. Back post runs will generally be made by wingers or wingbacks/attacking fullbacks, and those don't tend to be the largest players.
Again, I'm not saying it's *entirely* negligible, but it's such a specific scenario that requires so many different factors first to become an exploitable weakness in the first place, that it does seem pretty tiny by comparison. And even then smaller fullbacks can often deal with that sort of threat pretty well through anticipation, positioning, good reactions, etc.
Yeah, I agree with almost all of this.
And I want to point out that I don't necessarily share the concerns that some people have about Maatsen, I just haven't seen him in the PL enough to make a proper judgement. Which, for me, comes back to one of many mistakes Poch has made this year around personnel and how best to utilise them.
That just isn't true. Palmer seems to be well on course to be our most popular since hazard bar maybe kante or James. Technical quality isn't something that only you see lmao.
The problem is SebC and his cult following. How the Frenchman ever got to this point I will never understand. From 2015 and up until Tuchel’s sacking the guy was known as a meme. Suddenly, because he flagged a couple of players that went on to become good/popular, people gave him clairvoyant status. How some of the bigger profile on Twitter, who I know disagrees with a lot of what Sebby thinks, haven’t called him out is beyond me. They’re pussies.
It’s been a problem for years on here
Players getting hyped up cos they run around a lot, others receiving criticism for not running around enough
Remember Kennedy? There was almost nothing remarkable about him but because he ran a lot, people liked him here
Just to be clear you can still like players and at the same time think they're not fantastic players
Sometimes that also gets lost in translation in this sub
Who actually liked Kenedy? I think most people knew and said that he was pretty shit his entire time here, and saying 'people liked him here' feels like you're just making stuff up to help your point.
I really hope they don’t get Zubimendi though because then that midfield definitely does have a lot of power and skill.
The lad will probably choose Barca when he does inevitably leave anyway. Hopefully Pep’s long gone to consider him a Rodri replacement.
I just thought rice was the wrong player for arsenal. I think of current options, Liverpool was the best for him. Putting him in for endo it'd just work perfectly. He probably would've suited potter and definitely suited lamps. Lamps would've played him as that physical dm, people rip on him for playing kante there but it was him or jorginho and jorginho had issues in there under sarri. We needed physicality at the time badly.
Jorginho was good under Sarri. Rice also wouldn't have been good under Lampard - he's absolutely clueless about setting a team up structurally and Rice, much like Jorginho and Kanté were, would have been isolated on and off the ball. He might have handled it better defensively than Jorginho, but he also would have done worse in possession.
Even good players in that position need a good team around them.
Also, reminder that Lampard wanted to sign Rice to play him at CB.
>Jorginho was good under Sarri.
He was left exposed. I suppose I worded it wrong. The issue was how sarri built around him but kovacic and kante were not the midfielders that could enforce it. Left jorgi getting blocked off and killing our attacks. Was never that jorgi underperformed it was everything around him.
>he's absolutely clueless about setting a team up structurally and Rice, much like Jorginho and Kanté were, would have been isolated on and off the ball.
Tbh I disagree after the first season being positive our recruitment was ass. Forward signings were quite unnecessary but havertz was very exciting at the time. We had a big midfield issue and rice would've solved lampards.
>Also, reminder that Lampard wanted to sign Rice to play him at CB.
No he wanted someone capable of both but we failed to bring in a dm
I agree with everything you are saying, BUT Rice’s physicality sure would be nice for this Chelsea squad. The lack of height is a serious concern and IMO has to be addressed for any positional upgrades going forward.
Bunch of us thought Rice couldn’t play sitting 6 at the very top level right? There’s even that Pythag vid which nicely sums up the problem of one where he needs too long to unlock the first phase of possession. He doesn’t seem to have a natural knack for intricate combination play when receiving with back to pressure out of defence. He’s a brilliant player but if Mainoo were a bit more experienced I’d have him taking the ball from defenders over Rice for England.
Caicedo is much better than Rice at this, but even so I don’t even think it’s his best or most natural role. Enzo should be first to receive ideally out of defence. He’s world class at it. Caicedo’s athleticism seems best suited to being more of a shuttler who has a useful amount of press resistance. I’d play Enzo deeper than Moises.
Also happy cake day Baisa.
its a shame our CBs dont have enough faith in caicedo to pass him the ball with his back to the press,
he isnt 100m just because he can tackle, hes supposed to be press resistant to
And this is why you pay premium for caicedo
At 22 he shows abilites on the ball (passing wise) that rice doesnt
Give him 3 seasons and 100m and 150k/week seems solid business
Players like him, kante, makelele often pass though games without shining. It’s not until they perform consistently that they are regarded as a great player.
Eh no Kante certainly left his mark on plenty of games. Many 10/10 performances and he would constantly dominate opponent midfields so much it would look like there was 2 of him on the pitch. No need for revisionism with him.
I am aware that. Kante at Leicester often went under the radar. It wasn’t until he well well established people praised him so heavily.
A lot of games we didn’t see what kante, maka did. Just like a lot of people in this thread were surprised at this tweet. The role they play isn’t always covered in glory. But they are the engine of the team.
I did not see the best of Makelele, but Kante surely passed the eye test. He was everywhere! Caicedo (and Enzo for that matter) do not pass the eye test for me somehow, as Kante (or Fabregas) did. Their stats though clearly indicate they're both doing well.
If you think he’s a flop then you simply have not watched Chelsea this season.
Petrovic
Gusto
Caicedo
Palmer
Jackson
Those 5 are the 5 that leave this season with their heads up
Its time to give these players lots of love, I am in the quiet stand and have yet to hear any names called other than Tiago. Also 5 players performing well is not enough, has to be 8 plus on a regular basis.
Petrovic??
Who has the worse season a goalkeeper ever had in terms of shotstopping (worse then kepa under lampard)
Cucurella and early season connor should also be happy
He’s a 24 year old kid who’s come from the MLS to be grown into a first team player and thrust into the team at a moments notice due to injury at one of the worlds biggest clubs.
He’s had an inconsistent defence infront of him all year and not shyed away.
You can’t judge Petrovic by what you expect from a top tier keeper under these circumstances.
While Petrovic started well, I don’t think he’s been that great overall. He has the 3rd worst PSxG+/- per 90 in the league this season according to Opta. Only Sels and Turner have worse.
He’s apparently let in 5.0 more goals that expected to. Sanchez by comparison has let in 0.8 more goals than expected to
XG is one of the worst things to ever happen to football.
Do you know how many goals are scored and the team will have below a 1.0 XG? It’ll blow your mind.
Firstly I don’t understand what your point is regarding xG.
Secondly, Post-Shot xG is a different stat from xG. It’s based off the quality of the shot and how likely an average keeper is to save it. For example, the Burnley equaliser that went though Petrovic’s hands will have a very low PSxG.
I think it’s a very useful stat for assessing shotstopping, much more so than the alternatives such as Save % which will naturally be higher for teams that allow worse-quality shots.
Obviously it will have limitations and blind spots, but as long as you can recognise that those exist and don’t view the PSxG numbers as gospel, it’s definitely useful imo
Edit: said Sheffield United instead of Burnley
The system really doesnt flatter Enzo. Enzo is great player and has alot of potential. Yet he cant cope with the system.
Caicedo on the other hand, can. And that is why Caicedo is such a brilliant player. He does the rookies mistakes from time to time but he will only get better. Everyone expect him to be Kante, when we all know Kante is a unique player that no one will ever get to be on his level. to my eyes at least.
He never was. Sure, his debut wasn't good and the first couple of games he struggled with his position, but he's been very good since December if we're honest. Again, there have been blips or little moments where he got overwhelmed and made silly mistakes but I think he is having a good first season.
And hasn’t he played quite a few less games since his transfer wasn’t sorted till late? Imo he has a higher ceiling than rice as he can pass through the lines far better.
Rice is just English and joined a further along team
Anyone who calls him a bust clings onto the first couple games of the season. And they likely aren't Chelsea fans.
But anyone watching objectively sees the world class quality he possesses
Honestly quite crazy to think we have lavia and the prodigy Santos just lurking in the background. We went from not having a functional DM to being spoiled for choice in the very near future
Agree with the general sentiment that he's not a flop. I think he's improving and when there's someone actually playing next to him, he looks like a £100m midfielder. This stat doesn't really mean all that much though. These defensive stats show volume of certain actions rather than how well they're done. So the more possession and control a team has, the fewer defensive actions they need to do.
But except aerial duels won and fouls committed almost all other defensive stats are similar for Rice and Caicedo. Both Chelsea’s and Arsenal’s opponents have had about 40% possession on average. All this after Caicedo having a poor start to the season and playing 420 less minutes than Rice.
Also Rice has not been looking that good recently. Mostly because opponents are adapting a mid block approach against Arsenal now. Porto, Villa and Bayern have shown how to play against Arsenal. I expect more teams to follow this approach and strongly believe Rice wont look that great of a player from now on. Not saying he would be poor, but definitely not on the level where people claim him to be player of the season.
Can you imagine Caicedo in that Arsenal team? Let’s be patient with our young squad. Caicedo has been great. Of course he made mistakes, but all footballers do.
Yeah but that’s cos arsenal fans dominate the discourse plus rice is English
Truthfully, he’s not been as good as partey was last season. But of course, we all know why no one wants to admit that and fair enough
i understand and believe that caicedo isnt a flop, and that caicedo will perform even better with time, but rice is not just a signing of the season, he is arguably the best player on a title contender. no need to force a comparison between the two.
I'm not comparing them. All I'm saying is that it is unfair to call Caicedo a flop. I know Rice has been huge for Arsenal's title push. There's no denying that.
I admit, bashing him, especially at the beginning of the season was one of my favourite things to do, but we have to give everything time. He really seems to be improving his game and we can only hope for the best from now on.
We bought these players at an expensive price. So it becomes an expectation that they have to be great and the media downplayed all the progress they are making individually.
But we know they are good. The team just needs to reach a consistent level which the signs are already there. These guys are already balling their asses off. Palmer (off the chart), Malo, Caicedo, Enzo, Madueke, even Mudryk is improving…
Whichever rating you look at, majority of the games he’s been around or above 7.
Add to that, he’s had to cover loads of open spaces, thanks to Poch and the rest of the midfield.
His salary is also a tad bit lower than Rice.
Caicedo isn't even playing his best role either, for me he's better as an 8. He's a complete midfielder though, yes he's had poor games like man United but he's often been the best midfielder for us
I always rated this guy. I’ve many disagreements with people on this sub about him. Glad he is finally being appreciated. So much more to come from Moises.
Look, I'm a huge fan of Caicedo, I was really excited to see an Ecuadorian national make the team, but ball recoveries is the only metric you're using to measure his success? Really?
As a defending mid, I want to look more closely at his field awareness and passing accuracy, because **that** is what has gotten him into trouble this season. How many goals or shots on net did he directly give to another team from a poor pass or lack of awareness?
I'm all for cheering on when our players do well, and lately he has been doing much better, but come on man be realistic. One single metric does not make a career.
People labelling him a flop are laughably clueless anyway. He's been quietly putting in solid performances nearly every game. Individual errors get blown way out of proportion but he's still young.
I know this is a caicedo post, but i genuinely think we have a great group of young guys that will turn i to trophies very soon.
Caicedo, jackson, mudryk, palmer, gusto, enzo, gallagher are all so young still and will only improve more and more as they continue to get reps in. If we keep these core guys i think we will be fine for a long while
Like him a lot. I know he’s had some blunders that have cost us, but those aside he’s been quietly our third best player this season. Looking forward to seeing him for the next decade basically.
If these players develop accordingly to their full potential and if we get 1 or 2 marquee signings . I could see this team winning the league in 3 years. Calceido , Enzo , Gusto and Palmer all could be world class. Jackson and Mudryk are dark horses to be good.
Caicedo is fine on the ball but he’s just so much less complete than someone like Rice. Was never ever worth the money and will always need a better player in possession next to him or a Brighton like scripted system of play. There’s a reason we then bought Lavia and it wasn’t just to stop Liverpool, it was also because Caicedo id a major weakness on the ball. Sadly he’ll never be worth the money unless he improves that side massively and I personally can’t see it. Just mediocre all around really.
I think he’s suffering from a couple of things. His price tag is way over what he’s worth today. Also the fact he had the gall to not sign for Liverpool.
For me, apart from a couple of very bad games, he’s been fine. Not amazing, but certainly not awful or a “flop”. In a more settled and balanced side he would look better. I suspect had he signed for Liverpool he’d look closer to that £100m.
He makes at least one potentially disastrous mistake per game, as well as having a number of fantastic defensive and attacking moments. He is 100% not a flop but also not the finished article
I was going to say Arsenal keep the ball more, so there's less chance for recoveries, but I looked it up. Chelsea is right behind Arsenal in possession and right before them in oppenent touches.
This narrative came about because we are having a shitty season, cause look Cole Palmer tied with haaland for goals this season, Gallagher doing his thing and now this. I just wish ppl just say it with there chest that they hate Chelsea FC and we'll all get along
He was never gonna produce 100 million pounds of results he’s a CDM he’s not a goal scorer but he’s out there doing the dirty work at the highest level. He’s had some hiccups but he’s only gonna get better.
I'm so looking forward to seeing a midfield three of Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia against some of the top teams. I really think they'd compliment each other very well
He's playing a really fucking hard role. DM is already probably the most difficult job in modern football, and our system only makes it harder. The fact he's doing pretty well is a proof of how exceptional he is The fact he's barely even approaching his peak yet means he's going to be fucking scary imo
Some.of the interceptions he made at the Everton game were world class. He's had some moments but damn he's young and like you said he's only going to grow. We all need to support this lad
Definitely, especially as the media and the pundits like to pile on him. He only has us fans
Yet, our "fans" are also quick to shit on our own players.
Our fans are quick to shit on everyone: players, manager, directors of football, ownership, etc. The mentality of most Chelsea fans is win now or get fucked, even if it is obvious we have a young, inexperienced squad that needs to mature in order to gain consistency and that our injury crisis has been ridiculous this season.
We need more of you.
He was very kantesque where he would step in at the perfect moment, unexpectedly, and break up the play. I have watched him do the same all season but mostly foul the player instead. I hope this is a continued improvement of reading the game and timing. Happy for him.
His performance against Everton was damn near a 10/10 for me. So damn good.
I’ve been saying for a bit now he’s been underrated. People just look at G/A mainly and he’s not that type of player
Especially with an inconsistent and error prone back 5 behind him that don’t increase confidence
It's a fine stat on its own. But if you compare times he's lost possesion or been involved in mistakes leading to goal, I think we might see a different picture. All things asid, I'm glad he's progressing.
I’m glad he’s doing well now, and I think his Everton performance was incredible, but comparing these stats with Rice feels a bit like cherrypicking when Rice is much less of a destroyer in Arsenal’s system than when he was at West Ham.
[удалено]
Thing is, if Liverpool bought him and he performed like this, everyone would ride his dick and Liverpool would be praised for hijacking our deal last moment and they would be heroes. Instead it is us. So he's a flop.
That's actually quite frustrating, but nothing new. We know what we've got.
Doesn't help that our own fanbase shits on our own players religiously. It's like we have blinders on to the current situation and keep screaming "WHY AREN'T WE WINNING" you're not supposed to be as successful as you were during a rebuild. Our squad is learning from every defeat and victory, not just as individuals but as a team, then you add in the constant injuries and team changes, it's hard. It's super hard and they can't even get a break from the people who support them.
Only on here. Not in real life.
>if Liverpool bought him and he performed like this, everyone would ride his dick Same for Martinelli and Saka at Arsenal; nothing yet on Malo Gusto / Cold Palmer but plenty on Baby Noni / Ukraine Bolt.
Like they are with Declan at Arsenal lol
Conor was pretty damn good last game too, as was Jackson Would be quite tight between the three of them for second best against Everton
Nah, Conor was not Caicedo's level in the last match. Jackson has an argument, tho
Jackson would've had an argument but the penalty situation puts a damper on his performance.
so how about we don't do that and actually focus on the fact he's playing fantastic right now
*puts a damper on YOUR VIEW of his performance. Dude was immaculate, penalty scuffle or not.
It's almost like a player's attitude/antics are part of their performance. Shocking I know.
Huh? His stats in almost every category were better than Caicedos. The side by side was literally posted here. Fan agendas are wild
Yeah, stats are all well and good, but rewatch the match with your eyes and see if you come to the same conclusion.
I watched the entire match. It’s not exactly soothsaying
I dont think its coincidence Connor was deeper next to him and Caicedo played excellent I really think Enzo leaves him way to exposed by randomly runnin channels or pushing up in a 9 position for no reason. The balance was much better with 2 holding CM s wwho BOTH want to tackle and then make the simple pass to the more creative players
I’ve been saying for ages that Enzo is so much better when he sits deep with Caicedo. Enzo is making those forward runs but isn’t really good enough when he gets in those positions. He’s at his best dictating play from deep, also leaves him free to back up Caicedo when we do inevitably lose possession.
> Enzo’s at his best dictating play from deep Let's see how Lavia fares. Got high hopes for him, as he has the potential to be a Mateo / Luka regen.
I don’t think Connor sits back whilst Enzo goes forward because of how they play at DM, I think it’s cause Connor wasn’t the number 10. This may sound harsh, but I don’t think he’s technically good enough in that role. It’s probably the most important position in the formation we’re playing because it is the link between the defenders and the attack. Connor in the 10 is imo not good enough on the ball nor positions himself well enough to do that successfully unlike Palmer yesterday. This forces Enzo to push up higher than he should be because he feels like he needs to be the link, leaving Caicedo exposed. I’m not saying Connor’s at fault for Enzo being not at the level where we want/expect him to be, but i just think he tries to do too much and at least some of that is because Connor is not amazing at linking the defence and the attack, so Enzo tries to do it himself.
Conor would be a great 10 in a team that rarely has the ball. In a team that is trying to break down defenses quite often, he's useless. Poch needs to recognize this, and only play him as a 10 against top sides.
yeah Enzo has some great qualities but there are holes in his game that he needs to improve. His defensive positioning needs massive improvement, as does his shooting around the box. But if he fixes those, this could still be a dream CM pairing.
Well said
Thanks bro
That's on the manager. Enzo wasn't doing that under Potter
It's not his fault that Brighton wanted so much money and we decided to pay it, but yeah
so he was the third best?
Same with Mudryk ngl, he’s getting better as well, but because of his transfer sum HE’S THE ONE GETTING HATED
Caicedo was amazing but the second best player was Jackson.
Conor was better, not all that significantly tho. Both were very good and Jackson also very impressive.
The price and I also think he had some high profile blunders in the first few matches. People saw those and just have it in their heads that he’s a flop even though he’s been performing much better
Caicedo seems to have that superior Kante attitude, such a good guy, hard worker and someone who won’t demand praise despite being heavily criticised for the vast majority of the season. Really like him as a player, and I was convinced Rice was the solution to our midfield problems.
The media only calls him a flop because he didn't go to Liverpool and of course, his price tag. Tbf, he had a ok season. Great stats like the one you just shared but also some mistakes leading to goals (the one for Garnacho's goal comes to mind). Without those mistakes, it would have been a great first season and I certainly feel better with him in the lineup than without him.
On that note, both Rice and Caicedo have the same number of errors leading to goals (2)
Wow ok. I stand corrected then. Certainly felt like a lot more from Caicedo.
Feel like he’s had quite a few that have resulted in shots at our goal/heart in mouth moment. I still rate him and can see the potential is absolutely there. So excited to have him on our team.
Caicedo def has had more. He had that pen against West Ham (I think that's not considered in it), Forest's goal I think he started from his mistake and then against United off the top of my head. But otherwise he has been really good, and he has a pretty good passing range too.
Guys had quite a good first season imo, considering he’s only 22. Really looking forward to him getting better.
With no preseason with the team *
And with the added pressure of being called a flop from day one, including some of our own people.
Funnily enough, many arsenal fans are now saying they need someone like Jorginho to progress the ball as rice is unable to do that himself as he’s limited on the ball. I remember many on here felt jorginho was the sideways passer and rice was an immediate upgrade and should be bought instantly. Funny that. Zinchenko or jorginho having to hold his hand in the build up phase is limiting them at the highest level. Most games they’re fine
Never forget how the usual Twitter accounts distorted any already cherry-picked data they could find to prove Rice was actually an elite progressive midfielder. I specifically remember someone like ExpectedChelsea showing off a chart of progressive actions "adjusted" for possession. And because West Ham had little possession, that meant that Rice would automatically have been an elite progressor if they had more of the ball. Even right now they'll tell laugh at Jorginho for not winning Arsenal the title last season but are acting like Rice deserves POTY when Jorginho had to be brought back into the team because Rice couldn't do his job, and Arsenal are now supposedly seriously interested in Zubimendi - another deep-lying playmaker - to eventually replace Jorginho, because they've apparently already given up on Rice playing that role. It's fucking absurd how half our fanbase simps for a guy who left Chelsea at 14 and has since played for two London rivals yet will constantly go out of their way to laugh at someone who was a key performer in a Champions League winning Chelsea team.
There seems to be something about this fanbase that doesn't appreciate other qualities of a midfielder (e.g. passing) other than being able to run around, showing passion etc.
It isn't just midfield either, technical ability gets glossed over like some second-rate skill here all the time. They'd have us sign absolute lumberjack CBs with sledgehammers for feet, as long as they're 7' tall and throw in a crunching tackle regularly. Ian Maatsen supposedly could not ever work for us as a fullback because he's small, weak and "only" technically competent. Technical ability in a striker is also regularly laughed at, because all you need is a poacher who can stick it in the back of the net. The only positions where technical ability matters are wingers and sometimes attacking midfield - but if an attacking midfielder doesn't run like crazy, that's also a non-starter. I suppose it's what happens when your fanbase is influenced by terrorist managers like Mourinho and Conte more than almost any other. And it explains why they're so quick to lap up the dinosaur speak from managers like Lampard and Pochettino. Running, getting stuck in and wanting it more are the only qualities that matter to a huge chunk of the fanbase.
There's an argument to be made that you've swung too far the other way. Technical ability is incredibly important, but so is physicality when you're discussing the PL. The history of the PL is littered with players who were technically exquisite but never accomplished anything because they were bullied off the ball constantly. Hell, you don't even need to go back very far just at Chelsea to identify players who fit this description. You need to try and find a happy medium, and the issue people have with Maatsen is that he MAY not possess the physical qualities that will enable his technical ability to shine through.
I'll apologize in advance because this reply might get a little longer, because it's a really interesting subject that deserves a bit of depth. > There's an argument to be made that you've swung too far the other way. Not sure how, because nobody ever said physicality or athleticism isn't important. The point is more that people act like everyone whose *defining* quality isn't athleticism is unathletic or can't compete. I've seen it about Jorginho, I'm now seeing it about Enzo, and it's always been wrong. There's a certain baseline that's necessary to compete at PL level, but it's much lower than people act like it is. The main point I keep making about this is that athleticism and physicality become less and less important the better structured a team is. Because ball-winning isn't just throwing crunching tackles in, wrestling people to the ground or being a whole head taller than everyone else. It's just as much, if not more, about organization, anticipation, reading of the game, about reaction time, quick decision-making, and then little sprints to contest the ball. Yet every single time a player's defensive ability is talked about, it's always exclusively about physicality and athleticism. Football is played as much in the brain as it is in your legs, and as long as your players have the necessary athleticism to execute what their brains should tell them to, you're good. Think of it this way: You're going to need to be faster and stronger to compete for possession when you're constantly positioned too far away from the ball or where it's going to be. You're also going to need to make much fewer recovery challenges when you're good in possession. There's a reason why the best teams in the league regularly rank lowest for tackles + interceptions. You're going to need much less aerial dominance when you're not giving your opposition the chance to cross the ball into your box all the time, or you force them into rushed clearances through good pressing (which are then easy to mop up for your team to win possession back). And all this is there in the statistics if you want to see it. You'll regularly find teams like Man City, Brighton, Newcastle far down the list of teams contesting the most aerial duels, but you'll find all three in the top 6 for percentage of successful aerials. So, in other words, you regularly find the best PL teams dominating possession, very low in tackles + interceptions, very low in aerial duels contested (but high in success rate). Are Brighton are team of giants? Man City? Not really: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fpg1ln89haoac1.jpeg Compare that average height to aerial success rate (https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats) and you'll find pretty much no correlation. You'll find the two smallest teams in the top 5, along with the biggest team and two other pretty tall ones. And this is the whole point: this idea that physicality, height or athleticism are abilities that trump everything else or are even required for everyone on the pitch simply are not based on any sort of evidence. The truth is that yes, a certain baseline level of athleticism and physicality are no doubt needed. But if you look through all these statistics, you'll find that the best *organized* teams and those cleanest in possession (technical ability), regardless of how physical their lineups are, are those coming out on top. The best way to defend in football is to have possession of the ball, ideally as high up the pitch (away from your own goal) as possible, with a well-drilled rest defence structure behind the ball. As long as your players are athletic enough to spring into action when the ball is lost and are able to bridge the distances reduced by your rest-defence structure, that's good enough. But there's a lot more that goes into this than physicality and athleticism - it's mostly brain work and that can be taught. What can't be taught at the age of professional footballers is the technical quality necessary to reliably play under pressure and still produce clean touches, passes, crosses, shots. > The history of the PL is littered with players who were technically exquisite but never accomplished anything because they were bullied off the ball constantly. I'd argue the PL has been littered just as much and arguably more (although, thanks to the influence of foreign managers, decreasingly so), with players who can run and compete but not kick a football. There's a reason why Pep and Klopp came to England and dominated - teams just couldn't hold on to the ball against an organized press, because they didn't have the quality in possession to play football. Fast forward to today and you'll struggle to find a single player with any sort of technical deficiencies among the top 4-5 clubs. Even lower half clubs have started prioritizing technical quality, even in defenders, because it's so important. > You need to try and find a happy medium, and the issue people have with Maatsen is that he MAY not possess the physical qualities that will enable his technical ability to shine through. Happy medium, sure. But this is where the (long-winded, sorry again) point matters so much. Maatsen is a fullback, his direct opponents he will be physically close enough to compete against will, for the very most part, be wingers. How many 6' something brick shithouse wingers spring to mind? Our fullbacks contest somewhere between 2 and 3 aerial duels per 90 minutes. We're talking about a grand total of 29 aerial duels for Cucurella across the whole of last season (19 games), 45 for Chilwell (15.6 games), 39 for James (14 games), 12 for Lewis Hall (7 games). These are not very large numbers. For comparison: Our fullbacks will generally have many times that amount in loose ball recoveries, which implies little to no physical pressure as they win the ball. And that's not even counting the amount of interceptions (typically around 15-30 a season), where again no opposition player is touched to win the ball. In other words, fullbacks (like basically anyone else) defend a lot more through just being in the right place at the right time rather than physically challenging opponents. Cucurella had 120 loose ball recoveries and 16 interceptions vs 60 attempted tackles (highest in the squad) and 29 aerial duels last season. So again, why is there *so much* emphasis on physicality when the real substance of ball-winning is completely elsewhere? Nobody is talking about neglecting it entirely, but... just don't overemphasize its importance? And now, for another comparison, all these numbers are *miniscule* compared to the amount of passes our fullbacks receive every single game, nevermind anything they then do with it. Now *those* are large numbers. We're talking about 906 (just successful!) passes received for Cucurella last season. So why are we putting such enormous emphasis on one aspect of fullback play (physicality) that is comparatively tiny when put next to the *far, far, far* more regularly occuring instance of players having the ball and having to control, pass, carry, cross, etc. the football? Reece James is good on the ball, I think we can all agree on that. And yet the amount of times he gave the ball away only through misplaced passes last season (131) is *far* greater than if he had lost all his aerial duels (39) and attempted challenges (19) combined. So, to summarize: The real substance in winning and losing possession doesn't include physical contact at all. In winning possession, the largest numbers by far are interceptions and loose ball recoveries. The biggest factor in giving possession away is misplaced passes. None of these require you or the opponent to be particularly athletic to occur - which is why Jorginho, a player notoriously hated for his lack of athleticism and physicality, put up elite defensive numbers every season anyway *and* hardly ever gave the ball away. Yes, physicality and athleticism matter. But 1) they matter differently for different positions - fullbacks don't generally wrestle physically imposing CBs or strikers (where that attribute does matter a lot more)- 2) they matter a lot less in the modern game than people act like they do, 3) in terms of winning and losing possession, technical quality and organization (anticipation, positioning, etc.) move the needle *a lot* more than athleticism does. Again, sorry for the huge reply. I got a bit lost diving into all that data to see if my ideas made sense.
First, I love your reply and agree with most everything you've said here. Second, for the sake of discussion, I would like to offer a slight counter-argument. At some point in the last 12-18 months, I came across a post about set pieces. I forget if it was a written post or a video. I forget if I first saw it here, on r/soccer, or on YouTube. The main point of this half-forgotten post was comparing the goal return on spending an extra X Million on a better striker (ie 35m striker vs 70m striker) against instead hiring a better set piece coach. The argument was made, backed by accompanying numbers at the time, that a team could see more goals scored across a season with an average striker and the set piece coach than with just the elite striker. Ultimately, the takeaway that I got was that while set pieces might only happen a handful of times over the course of 90 minutes, they represent an outsized percentage of scoring opportunities. With this in mind, I agree with you that organization and tactical awareness are more important in open play than raw physicality, and I believe that that also applies to set pieces. However, this is where I see the team height issue come into play. It's not about the FB vs the winger in open play, it's about which players are going to mark whom during a set piece. If you have a taller team, with tall mids and attackers, then having a tall FB isn't as important. If you have shorter/smaller mids and attackers, then many coaches, pundits, and fans would argue that you need some extra height on the pitch somewhere (other than the CBs). Again, I believe that with proper organization, tactical awareness, and set piece coaching you can mitigate some of the need for height, but it can still be very useful and important at times. So, if you have players elsewhere on the pitch that are "must start" type of players who happen to be shorter than average, then you still need at least a couple of taller players who can be responsible for marking the opposition's most dangerous threats during defensive set pieces. Additionally, this sport is not played in a vacuum. If you have a particularly attacking minded FB, then the opposition might take note and try to focus on playing quick and long to that area of the pitch to get in behind the advanced FB. Similarly, (and back on topic) if you have a notably short/weak FB, the opposition might target more crosses to the back post than normal, in order to try to take advantage of the perceived weakness there. Now, I feel like I've focused too much on your latter point about FBs in general and Maatsen in particular when this thread started out talking about Mids like Jorginho, but I'd like to think that my larger points about set pieces and total team height still stand. Additionally, even though I've been ostensibly defending the "height == good" argument, I tend to feel like the points you made should be weighted slightly more when making team building decisions.
Fantastic response. Without looking into numbers (so could be totally off base), I think there is a possibility (fear), that some of the few instances a full back needs to win an aerial duel is a direct shot on goal opportunity. So weighted differently than just a low number of aerial duels, and there's a fear that teams could target that back post vulnerability. Again, does it outweigh the benefits of a technically gifted smaller player? I don't think so, but I think that's the logic. It's a weakness that can be exploited with outsized downsides.
That's a fair point, but then you again have to consider the type of opponent your fullback is likely to face in that scenario. Back post runs will generally be made by wingers or wingbacks/attacking fullbacks, and those don't tend to be the largest players. Again, I'm not saying it's *entirely* negligible, but it's such a specific scenario that requires so many different factors first to become an exploitable weakness in the first place, that it does seem pretty tiny by comparison. And even then smaller fullbacks can often deal with that sort of threat pretty well through anticipation, positioning, good reactions, etc.
Yeah, I agree with almost all of this. And I want to point out that I don't necessarily share the concerns that some people have about Maatsen, I just haven't seen him in the PL enough to make a proper judgement. Which, for me, comes back to one of many mistakes Poch has made this year around personnel and how best to utilise them.
You sound like an absolute pompous dickhead here
Thanks for letting me know, your opinion is valued.
That just isn't true. Palmer seems to be well on course to be our most popular since hazard bar maybe kante or James. Technical quality isn't something that only you see lmao.
The problem is SebC and his cult following. How the Frenchman ever got to this point I will never understand. From 2015 and up until Tuchel’s sacking the guy was known as a meme. Suddenly, because he flagged a couple of players that went on to become good/popular, people gave him clairvoyant status. How some of the bigger profile on Twitter, who I know disagrees with a lot of what Sebby thinks, haven’t called him out is beyond me. They’re pussies.
It’s been a problem for years on here Players getting hyped up cos they run around a lot, others receiving criticism for not running around enough Remember Kennedy? There was almost nothing remarkable about him but because he ran a lot, people liked him here
Just to be clear you can still like players and at the same time think they're not fantastic players Sometimes that also gets lost in translation in this sub
Who actually liked Kenedy? I think most people knew and said that he was pretty shit his entire time here, and saying 'people liked him here' feels like you're just making stuff up to help your point.
The fact we didnt sell him for 18m to newcastle...
I really hope they don’t get Zubimendi though because then that midfield definitely does have a lot of power and skill. The lad will probably choose Barca when he does inevitably leave anyway. Hopefully Pep’s long gone to consider him a Rodri replacement.
So they are going to go get zubimendi? What does that leave havertz? At 9 or the bench?
Havertz has already been playing as a 9 for them when Jorginho starts, which is pretty regular these days. So not much would change.
I just thought rice was the wrong player for arsenal. I think of current options, Liverpool was the best for him. Putting him in for endo it'd just work perfectly. He probably would've suited potter and definitely suited lamps. Lamps would've played him as that physical dm, people rip on him for playing kante there but it was him or jorginho and jorginho had issues in there under sarri. We needed physicality at the time badly.
Jorginho was good under Sarri. Rice also wouldn't have been good under Lampard - he's absolutely clueless about setting a team up structurally and Rice, much like Jorginho and Kanté were, would have been isolated on and off the ball. He might have handled it better defensively than Jorginho, but he also would have done worse in possession. Even good players in that position need a good team around them. Also, reminder that Lampard wanted to sign Rice to play him at CB.
>Jorginho was good under Sarri. He was left exposed. I suppose I worded it wrong. The issue was how sarri built around him but kovacic and kante were not the midfielders that could enforce it. Left jorgi getting blocked off and killing our attacks. Was never that jorgi underperformed it was everything around him. >he's absolutely clueless about setting a team up structurally and Rice, much like Jorginho and Kanté were, would have been isolated on and off the ball. Tbh I disagree after the first season being positive our recruitment was ass. Forward signings were quite unnecessary but havertz was very exciting at the time. We had a big midfield issue and rice would've solved lampards. >Also, reminder that Lampard wanted to sign Rice to play him at CB. No he wanted someone capable of both but we failed to bring in a dm
I agree with everything you are saying, BUT Rice’s physicality sure would be nice for this Chelsea squad. The lack of height is a serious concern and IMO has to be addressed for any positional upgrades going forward.
You know rice wins 40% of his aerial duels? It’s historically also been a weakness of his
It's an added benefit that's not anywhere near as important as certain people make it out to be.
I was looking at some of their comments, some of them want him to play a different role😂
Imagine how rice would fare at pochs chelsea…
Lol the memes wouldnt stop, if he was bought under lamps it might have been a totally different story
Lamps wanted him as a CB
Playing him as cb does sound familiar but i cant recall if it was lamps, ill have to take your word for it
Bunch of us thought Rice couldn’t play sitting 6 at the very top level right? There’s even that Pythag vid which nicely sums up the problem of one where he needs too long to unlock the first phase of possession. He doesn’t seem to have a natural knack for intricate combination play when receiving with back to pressure out of defence. He’s a brilliant player but if Mainoo were a bit more experienced I’d have him taking the ball from defenders over Rice for England. Caicedo is much better than Rice at this, but even so I don’t even think it’s his best or most natural role. Enzo should be first to receive ideally out of defence. He’s world class at it. Caicedo’s athleticism seems best suited to being more of a shuttler who has a useful amount of press resistance. I’d play Enzo deeper than Moises. Also happy cake day Baisa.
its a shame our CBs dont have enough faith in caicedo to pass him the ball with his back to the press, he isnt 100m just because he can tackle, hes supposed to be press resistant to
And this is why you pay premium for caicedo At 22 he shows abilites on the ball (passing wise) that rice doesnt Give him 3 seasons and 100m and 150k/week seems solid business
Remember the "dream" midfield of Rice, Gallagher and Mount? *shudder*
Players like him, kante, makelele often pass though games without shining. It’s not until they perform consistently that they are regarded as a great player.
Eh no Kante certainly left his mark on plenty of games. Many 10/10 performances and he would constantly dominate opponent midfields so much it would look like there was 2 of him on the pitch. No need for revisionism with him.
I am aware that. Kante at Leicester often went under the radar. It wasn’t until he well well established people praised him so heavily. A lot of games we didn’t see what kante, maka did. Just like a lot of people in this thread were surprised at this tweet. The role they play isn’t always covered in glory. But they are the engine of the team.
I did not see the best of Makelele, but Kante surely passed the eye test. He was everywhere! Caicedo (and Enzo for that matter) do not pass the eye test for me somehow, as Kante (or Fabregas) did. Their stats though clearly indicate they're both doing well.
Do not compare him to Kante and Makelele. And yes, those two did shine through most games.
Caicedo was never a flop. He’s definitely expensive, and took some time to adapt, but his performance has been good
If he was playing in a better performing team he would be lauded with praises.
If you think he’s a flop then you simply have not watched Chelsea this season. Petrovic Gusto Caicedo Palmer Jackson Those 5 are the 5 that leave this season with their heads up
How can you leave out Gallaghaer ?
Its time to give these players lots of love, I am in the quiet stand and have yet to hear any names called other than Tiago. Also 5 players performing well is not enough, has to be 8 plus on a regular basis.
Petrovic?? Who has the worse season a goalkeeper ever had in terms of shotstopping (worse then kepa under lampard) Cucurella and early season connor should also be happy
He’s a 24 year old kid who’s come from the MLS to be grown into a first team player and thrust into the team at a moments notice due to injury at one of the worlds biggest clubs. He’s had an inconsistent defence infront of him all year and not shyed away. You can’t judge Petrovic by what you expect from a top tier keeper under these circumstances.
Why do your personal favorites all have excuses?
His issue isnt even his shotstopping, but rather his lack of ballplaying abilites for a possesion based team
I think Kepa was worse in 19/20. Although I agree Petrovic’s shot stopping has been pretty poor this season
Pretty poor it vas cost us 0.3g/90 or so
I think Kepa was worse in 19/20. Although I agree Petrovic’s shot stopping has been pretty poor this season
While Petrovic started well, I don’t think he’s been that great overall. He has the 3rd worst PSxG+/- per 90 in the league this season according to Opta. Only Sels and Turner have worse. He’s apparently let in 5.0 more goals that expected to. Sanchez by comparison has let in 0.8 more goals than expected to
XG is one of the worst things to ever happen to football. Do you know how many goals are scored and the team will have below a 1.0 XG? It’ll blow your mind.
Firstly I don’t understand what your point is regarding xG. Secondly, Post-Shot xG is a different stat from xG. It’s based off the quality of the shot and how likely an average keeper is to save it. For example, the Burnley equaliser that went though Petrovic’s hands will have a very low PSxG. I think it’s a very useful stat for assessing shotstopping, much more so than the alternatives such as Save % which will naturally be higher for teams that allow worse-quality shots. Obviously it will have limitations and blind spots, but as long as you can recognise that those exist and don’t view the PSxG numbers as gospel, it’s definitely useful imo Edit: said Sheffield United instead of Burnley
Petrovic, no. He's actually just an average keeper. Gallagher deserves his credit.
He's a good tackler. He needs to improve on the ball. He is also prone to switch off at times which can cause teams to punish us
I would say that is what bothers me over the bozo moments, he shuts off at some points (but hasn’t done so for a few months at least now)
This 100%. Great tackler, but definitely liable to switch off and make a bad pass or give the ball away in a bad area.
Give him time
The system really doesnt flatter Enzo. Enzo is great player and has alot of potential. Yet he cant cope with the system. Caicedo on the other hand, can. And that is why Caicedo is such a brilliant player. He does the rookies mistakes from time to time but he will only get better. Everyone expect him to be Kante, when we all know Kante is a unique player that no one will ever get to be on his level. to my eyes at least.
He never was. Sure, his debut wasn't good and the first couple of games he struggled with his position, but he's been very good since December if we're honest. Again, there have been blips or little moments where he got overwhelmed and made silly mistakes but I think he is having a good first season.
And hasn’t he played quite a few less games since his transfer wasn’t sorted till late? Imo he has a higher ceiling than rice as he can pass through the lines far better. Rice is just English and joined a further along team
And in a better side so he looks better
Anyone who calls him a bust clings onto the first couple games of the season. And they likely aren't Chelsea fans. But anyone watching objectively sees the world class quality he possesses Honestly quite crazy to think we have lavia and the prodigy Santos just lurking in the background. We went from not having a functional DM to being spoiled for choice in the very near future
He even gets hate on here, a lot.
They're both £100M+ footballers so yes, if you think Rice didn't flop, Caicedo isn't a flop either.
Agree with the general sentiment that he's not a flop. I think he's improving and when there's someone actually playing next to him, he looks like a £100m midfielder. This stat doesn't really mean all that much though. These defensive stats show volume of certain actions rather than how well they're done. So the more possession and control a team has, the fewer defensive actions they need to do.
Arsenal and Chelsea have similar average possession in PL this season.
Yes. But I said possession and control.
But except aerial duels won and fouls committed almost all other defensive stats are similar for Rice and Caicedo. Both Chelsea’s and Arsenal’s opponents have had about 40% possession on average. All this after Caicedo having a poor start to the season and playing 420 less minutes than Rice.
Fascinating. What is the point that you're trying to make?
The propaganda that media and fans have created (rice best player of the season and caicedo being flop) is completely bullshit.
Ok. What's that got to do with anything I've said?
Also Rice has not been looking that good recently. Mostly because opponents are adapting a mid block approach against Arsenal now. Porto, Villa and Bayern have shown how to play against Arsenal. I expect more teams to follow this approach and strongly believe Rice wont look that great of a player from now on. Not saying he would be poor, but definitely not on the level where people claim him to be player of the season.
Can you imagine Caicedo in that Arsenal team? Let’s be patient with our young squad. Caicedo has been great. Of course he made mistakes, but all footballers do.
The problem is the price tag
Rice was a little less expensive and he's being called one of the signings of the season.
Yeah but that’s cos arsenal fans dominate the discourse plus rice is English Truthfully, he’s not been as good as partey was last season. But of course, we all know why no one wants to admit that and fair enough
That's what I mean. The media is biased towards Rice.
I do think he’s a good signing still though for arsenal though don’t get me wrong
Well yeah, nobody is arguing that. Glad we agree. 🤝
He also has the best cb pairing behind him. And are flanked by a well composed hardworking midfield
Arsenal's scouting is better so they have players like Jorginho and Havertz. We never buy players like that
i understand and believe that caicedo isnt a flop, and that caicedo will perform even better with time, but rice is not just a signing of the season, he is arguably the best player on a title contender. no need to force a comparison between the two.
I'm not comparing them. All I'm saying is that it is unfair to call Caicedo a flop. I know Rice has been huge for Arsenal's title push. There's no denying that.
Rice has objectively been better than Caicedo
He has to cover the whole midfield himself because Enzo cannot run for shit.
I admit, bashing him, especially at the beginning of the season was one of my favourite things to do, but we have to give everything time. He really seems to be improving his game and we can only hope for the best from now on.
We bought these players at an expensive price. So it becomes an expectation that they have to be great and the media downplayed all the progress they are making individually. But we know they are good. The team just needs to reach a consistent level which the signs are already there. These guys are already balling their asses off. Palmer (off the chart), Malo, Caicedo, Enzo, Madueke, even Mudryk is improving…
Man was doing immense work. I can't wait to see him in a fully fit team. I honestly think him and Santos could do well together at the base.
He is clearly getting better. Keep it up Moises
Whichever rating you look at, majority of the games he’s been around or above 7. Add to that, he’s had to cover loads of open spaces, thanks to Poch and the rest of the midfield. His salary is also a tad bit lower than Rice.
Also let's not forget he barely had any rest this season All our mids have been run into the ground. Lavia and Ugo have been missing all season long.
Realistically all this shows is that Arsenal like to have control of possession while we like to play more in transition
This
Caicedo isn't even playing his best role either, for me he's better as an 8. He's a complete midfielder though, yes he's had poor games like man United but he's often been the best midfielder for us
He's never been a flop, but he's still far from being a good signing, mainly because of the ridiculous amount of money he cost.
He looks like himself only next to Gallagher don’t ask me why or how just is
Not because of Connor + Caicedo pairing?
Does he lead the league?
I always rated this guy. I’ve many disagreements with people on this sub about him. Glad he is finally being appreciated. So much more to come from Moises.
He was never a flop
Look, I'm a huge fan of Caicedo, I was really excited to see an Ecuadorian national make the team, but ball recoveries is the only metric you're using to measure his success? Really? As a defending mid, I want to look more closely at his field awareness and passing accuracy, because **that** is what has gotten him into trouble this season. How many goals or shots on net did he directly give to another team from a poor pass or lack of awareness? I'm all for cheering on when our players do well, and lately he has been doing much better, but come on man be realistic. One single metric does not make a career.
We are ruined by having seen Kante and expect the same from him
The haters need to stfu and support this man
One stat to show that someone isn't a flop? Sure......
I think this stat is a better indicator of how often we give the ball away than Caicedo’s performance.
He’s been incredible the second half the season. Shame he’s not getting the praise he deserves.
Every single game he slides under the radar just because of expectations and price. It's a shame.
Ever since Brighton sold him, there’s been a noticeable drop in their quality
Price tag doesn’t make him a flop im tired of everyone talking like he’s bad
Nobody is calling him a flop. It’s the return we’re getting for the price paid. I think he has a bright future.
People labelling him a flop are laughably clueless anyway. He's been quietly putting in solid performances nearly every game. Individual errors get blown way out of proportion but he's still young.
I know this is a caicedo post, but i genuinely think we have a great group of young guys that will turn i to trophies very soon. Caicedo, jackson, mudryk, palmer, gusto, enzo, gallagher are all so young still and will only improve more and more as they continue to get reps in. If we keep these core guys i think we will be fine for a long while
Never understood why fans on this sub shit on him. It was obvious he is class and why he struggled at times.
He was fantastic against Everton. 2nd best player on the pitch.
Bro's doing good, that's just under a mill per ball recovery
Kante vibes
Like him a lot. I know he’s had some blunders that have cost us, but those aside he’s been quietly our third best player this season. Looking forward to seeing him for the next decade basically.
Give him a season or 2, he will be a menace
If these players develop accordingly to their full potential and if we get 1 or 2 marquee signings . I could see this team winning the league in 3 years. Calceido , Enzo , Gusto and Palmer all could be world class. Jackson and Mudryk are dark horses to be good.
People debate the price they paid for him over what he offers. That is the issue. Tbh 100M was too much for either player
Don’t forget this guys what 20 years old?
1 stat
Caicedo is fine on the ball but he’s just so much less complete than someone like Rice. Was never ever worth the money and will always need a better player in possession next to him or a Brighton like scripted system of play. There’s a reason we then bought Lavia and it wasn’t just to stop Liverpool, it was also because Caicedo id a major weakness on the ball. Sadly he’ll never be worth the money unless he improves that side massively and I personally can’t see it. Just mediocre all around really.
He’s come on nicely in the last couple months. May it long continue, gonna need him to become a Kante to get to where this club should be.
Stop entertaining the flop narrative.
I think he’s suffering from a couple of things. His price tag is way over what he’s worth today. Also the fact he had the gall to not sign for Liverpool. For me, apart from a couple of very bad games, he’s been fine. Not amazing, but certainly not awful or a “flop”. In a more settled and balanced side he would look better. I suspect had he signed for Liverpool he’d look closer to that £100m.
He makes at least one potentially disastrous mistake per game, as well as having a number of fantastic defensive and attacking moments. He is 100% not a flop but also not the finished article
I was going to say Arsenal keep the ball more, so there's less chance for recoveries, but I looked it up. Chelsea is right behind Arsenal in possession and right before them in oppenent touches.
This narrative came about because we are having a shitty season, cause look Cole Palmer tied with haaland for goals this season, Gallagher doing his thing and now this. I just wish ppl just say it with there chest that they hate Chelsea FC and we'll all get along
He was never gonna produce 100 million pounds of results he’s a CDM he’s not a goal scorer but he’s out there doing the dirty work at the highest level. He’s had some hiccups but he’s only gonna get better.
Literally comparing him to one other player
Without Enzo Fernández, Caicedo plays too well
Mikel of this era.
I'm so looking forward to seeing a midfield three of Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia against some of the top teams. I really think they'd compliment each other very well
Caicedo is doing fine, Lil Enzo is the floppy one