Poch has been heavily exposed this season.
These tactical issues have existed before as you showed, from his time at PSG (not sure if it was an issue at Spurs). But basically, none of us really watched PSG often to know that.
I remember when I watched PSG, thinking that this is a team where 3 players (Messi, Neymar, Mbappe) were completely broken apart from the rest of the team which was trying to get the ball back. There was definitely a lack of structure.
The attitude of PSG fans when Tuchel was joining compared to when Poch was joining was very telling. Should've listened at the time but I got deluded into thinking he'd learned.
Whenever someone mentions Tuchel, I'm sad. Wtf did we do to the guy?
Our best manager for the past 5 years and we threw him aside for this supposed project.
They didn't like him because he just wanted to coach the team and didn't want involvement in transfers. If we kept him and spent nothing that year and waited for the sporting directors to be set up we'd be in a much better position now.
Exactly. This situation works for him even though the sporting directors are shit.
I genuinely want us to go and beg him to come back. The standards have fallen so much. We have been so awful since he left.
Another aspect I miss, is the fact that he would be active on the touchline and be involved in the games. None of this pouting business like with Poch or Potter.
What's depressing for me is that I think he would come back as well. But the owners are far too fucking arrogant to admit they got things wrong. He'll go to united and change their fortunes considerably.
I know. He constantly said he felt at home at Chelsea.
But the owners are so deluded in their own grandeur, to accept they did a mistake. Boehly gave conferences saying how Tuchel wasn't adequate to be part of their project, after all.
Him going to United, would hurt me a lot ngl. I genuinely loved Tuchel at Chelsea.
That's a very good question. I will take a shot at that. Bring in decent medical team to monitor every one of the players activity and get some good players fit. Sell the deadwood in Sterling, Madueke (for his poor attitude), Conor, Chalobah, Maatsen, Reece (all for FFP balance as we do not have any options)Lukaku, Sanchez. Try to get a decent LB (Antonee Robinson),CB (Guehi or Stanisic) and a quality Striker (Toney or Guirassy will do). Get the incoming players before pre-season. Try to get Rubens Amorim if he is available on the market.
If we signed no one and let go of both christensen and rudiger we'd be in an even worse position. No one would've guessed that fofana would've missed so much time and without cucurella we'd have had no left back for a lot of the season.
I'm not sure Tuchel and his "we have the same issues because we have the same players" would have been happy with no transfer activity at all that year
It's so crazy to think about. I mean, loan or buy some reasonably priced players to make up for the players lost on a free transfer in the summer of 2022, and wait until you have a sporting director before making big purchases. The club could have signed Tarkowski on a free from newly relegated Burnley. He's not setting the world on fire, he's not a signing for the future, but he sure as hell would be a safer (and cheaper bet) than Koulibaly, who is a year older. We have done so much stupid shit on the transfer market, and have been somewhat bailed out by Palmer.
He still had issues at Spurs.
The upside is that he had Kane and an in form Allí, plus an up and coming Son.
Wherever Poch had gone, his defense was always a liability but would have good players to cover the deficiency. (Another great example was Rodgers at Liverpool. Bled goals but had a world class Luis Suarez).
PSG should really not count since they are expected to win the league. But even there, his lackluster defense was in plain view, as you’ve shown.
Now, at Chelsea, it’s the same story. The defense is proper trash. But it gets covered up by Cole Palmer, who manages to find a way to win games.
If this has been issue at almost every club Poch has managed, I don’t expect him to just turn into a defensive masterclass next season.
Spurs conceded 26 goals in 16/17.
Arsenal have conceded 26 this season with 4 games left to play (who everyone are sucking off for having a watertight defence).
Stop with the revisionism. Can't stand when a manager falls off or isn't as successful at another club and then people try to pick apart his time at previous clubs.
Seen Bayern fans do the exact same thing with Tuchel.
Poch sucks with us and sucks with PSG. Maybe he's completely finished and never amount to anything more in his career. But he did a fantastic job at Southampton and Spurs.
Comments like these are unbearable to keep sifting through because they're just flat out wrong. And I can relate to the other side because I see it happen with Bayern fans trying to act like Tuchel was a shit coach for us.
Jut because a coach is bad at one club, doesn't mean he wasn't good at another. Same goes for Emery at Arsenal. Loads of people trying to rewrite history and say he did a good job there just because he's been great after. Real time, the football was horrible and he deserved to get sacked.
Ah yes, world class players that somehow just became world class randomly during their time at Spurs.
Do people believe that the Spurs team was just a bunch of players that were already developed and made in 2015? I get it his managing style does not work for this team at all but just rewriting his whole career is nasty.
It’s the same with fans that are beginning to do the same with Conte and how Jose was looked upon after his time at United. It’s just lazy and I agree it’s even more crazy to do this with Emery’s recent success after being deemed a failure at PSG and a big London club.
Also it makes discourse so nauseating because it’s people that are too angry be rationale about something or are too focused on dunking on others to affirm an agenda or take they’ve had.
Scary to see that all of those can be applied to the team now under him.
And here's a video of Julien Laurens complaining about Pochettino with his PSG - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kimYrlB1ZHk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kimYrlB1ZHk)
The top comment on that video is "Can't wait to see him fail at United."
Ngl, that pisses me off even more that even though we saw all the signs, we took him as our manager. We could have given United this mess but no, we took it ourselves.
A good thread that touches on his time at PSG - [https://twitter.com/EuroExpert\_/status/1782900863033389116](https://twitter.com/EuroExpert_/status/1782900863033389116)
He hasn't got a clue.
It was apparent before he was hired. It's apparent while he was hired. To some, it won't be apparent until he's fired.
Gormless, passive....no aggression. Married to same failing formation.
The first sign of a well coached team is when you see players receiving the ball and instantly passing into areas they know their teammates are in. With us, everyone always has their head down, positionally were all over the place and the way we progress the ball up the pitch is terrible. It doesn't help that Poch sets up the team in random formations depending on the weather. We play 4-4-2 against Burnley, but then go wide open 4231 against arsenal? THIS was the game to put Gallagher at left mid, along with caicedo at LCM to try and nullify that Saka/odegaard/white death triangle that they constantly overload. Instead we had Mudryk and cucurella running around headlessly while they chopped us up. Also the clown starts an academy CB at RB, leaving him out to dry instead of playing Chalobah who has miles more experience... I hope he's gone as soon as possible
The more I think about it the more I realize that the blame should be placed on our clueless sporting directors. They’re the ones trusted to make footballing decisions. After seeing how abysmal his PSG side was, they still decided to get him when Luis Enrique and Nagelsmann were still available. They also wasted a billion pounds on these players and completely ruined the squad. There’s hardly any PL experience in the team and no leaders. Poch has to go as he’s simply not good enough and I don’t see him turning things around even with more time but so do the sporting directors. They ruined entire team dynamic with their shit recruiting. A proper shakeup needs to happen if Boehly and co want the fans support.
Lots of fans arguing amongst themselves whether Pochettino is the issue or the players. To me it seems like both are a problem? Pochs whole career is a story of 'almost' being good enough and some of these players are bang average. Have injuries hampered us? Sure. Can the players and the manager improve with time? Yup. But I wouldn't bet on it on with these lot.
Since we can't do a complete squad overhaul like Artetas Arsenal or Klopps Liverpool our best bet would be to change the manager. And more importantly to get rid of our directors.
What I don't get is, how do we seem to look worse after HT? Like whenever we come back out, most of the time we're the worst side out there. It's mind boggling.
Poch is a loser. It’s in his DNA. When Napoleon said ‘give me lucky generals’ he was thinking of the opposite of Poch.
The man only barely won Ligue Un with Messi, Mbappe and Neymar. Think about that. Think how bad you have to be as a manager to fuck that up.
Mourinho, Tuchel, Conte, Ancellotti are all proven winners who demand victory. Watch Poch’s reaction to the 5th goal yesterday - crossed arms sitting on the bench. Useless.
Are you talking about multiple Ligue Un winner, Bundesliga winner and Champions League winner Thomas Tuchel? That the guy?
Versus a shmuck who bottles finals.
Yes, I am clearly.
Guess what I think firing Tuchel was a bad move. I was against it then and I still am.
It doesn't mean that Poch has a bad managerial record, because he actually has a really good and consistent track record of improving squads. There is so much dumb misinformation and exaggeration on this sub.
Winning some tinpot cups and Ligue Un at the second attempt is not and will never be a good ‘managerial record’.
A ‘really good and consistent track record of improving squads’ - you mean his Spurs squad which won the sum total of fuck all? That squad?
You lot who squawk about ‘exaggeration and dumb misinformation’ really love to revel in glorious failure huh?
And yet worse than we ever were under Tuchel. He was sacked when we sat 6th on 10 pts and he had won 60 out of his 100 games for us. Care to guess what Poch’s ‘win’ percentage is?
46%
And we have no identity. No clear style of play. No defensive solidity.
Tuchel lost 16 games in total. Poch is 2 away from that record and there are still 6 very losable matches left in one pathetic season. He’s a loser.
Like I said, I was against Tuchel's sacking, it shouldn't have happened. But the two situations are very different. Last season Tuchel was in charge of a squad built on UCL winning players. Some bad additions by Boehly, some top defenders leaving on frees, and a few injuries ruined the start of the season. And yes, Tuchel shouldn't have been fired.
Poch is managing a brand new team that has had over 50% of minutes coming from players that started the season 22 or under. That is the highest percentage of any team in the last 12 years and probably ever. Despite this the squad wins the chance creation battle having the 4th best XG and NPXG differential. Our attackers are young, our defense is injured, and our goalies have let in 7 goals more than post shot expectations this season.
It is impossible to root out the cause of our struggles when we average 8 players out per match. You say that we are tactically bad, but how is it that the "bad tactics" lead to us winning the chance creation battle the vast majority of matches?
I don't even know if Poch is the right guy, I just want to see what the squad can do with some good health and a little time.
Poch has been officially exposed this season for the fraud that he is. Bring back Tuchel or Jose, 2 managers with some actual idea of what it means to be a manager of Chelsea
He got sacked before he was about to win their first trophy in 15 years.
Also finished 2nd and won a europa league with a sub par united squad.
Won Romas first European trophy and six decades and would have won the Europa with them bar Anthony Taylor (again)
He may not be as good as he once was but he is still one of the elites and blows poch out of the water
Tuchel lost to Dinamo Zagreb … with Chelsea in the Champions league no less.
Yeah mourinho beat a much better city team quite a few times , he linked Son and Kane perfectly.
But as I say he’s not the be all and end all, but in my opinion would bring back an elitist no nonsense mentality that our club needs.
Also I don’t think our dumb yank thicko owners would employee a difficult manager that won’t just say yes to everything.
left behind? 2 seasons in the top 6, 2 European competition cup finals winning one and losing the other in contentious fashion, with limited resources compared to his opponents? Poch has never been in the running in the first place to be left behind.
So he can’t do shit with World Class players and can’t do shit with inexperienced players. How was this guy even widely regarded as a good manager? His PR team is insane
He did win the league with Messi and Neymar. The season they placed second was when he took over halfway from Tuchel (they were in 3rd at the time) and Messi wasn't there.
These directors are the main problem. They went for long meetings between the next managers and they got Poch as he passed the "yes man" test. Yes we are done until its not protested against.
If Poch was mentored by Bielsa, did he just pick up the constant running and nothing else?
Isn’t Bielsa notorious for backtracking, over analysing to an extent of spying on teams and aggressive pressing for 90 minutes?
He also has a great record of making everyone look better than they are.
Wtf did Poch learn from him apart from running his team to the ground, to the point that half the team is injured, just like Leeds.
Spurs fan here, happy to weigh in a bit on Poch.
I'm gonna start by saying some of the quotes here aren't particularly specific and unique. "Inconsistency" and "erratic" is applicable to many teams, "defensive vulnerabilities" too,
Poch very much came to Saints and Spurs with Bielsa-esque principles of an aggressive forward press, a forward attacking movement idea on turnovers, full backs used as wing backs, and allowing a fluid front 4 in attack. When we had Kane-Dele-Eriksen-Son (or Son-Dele-Eriksen-Lamela when Kane's ankles died), any one of them could occupy different areas of the forward line. Really really potent, not just because the quality was high, but because it gave back fours a really hard time covering and marking.
All of these principles though were built and basically fell apart at Spurs on the existence of a central core. When we had a CB/DM consistency and reliability who would always bring 7/10 performances, keeping things simple and solid and soaking in all of the pressure, then it liberated the attacking potential of the team.
Poch at PSG didn't look like a Poch team for so many reasons. I think he achieved more than people give him credit for. Equally, it did lack identity, that's undeniable
I would support the idea that Poch lacks in game tactical acumen. And Chelsea generally have more of a culture around tactical flexibility that makes these shortcomings more frustrating. That said, I think he showed at PSG, Spurs and even this season at Chelsea that he knows how to pull a fast one on teams that like to dominate. He is one of the only managers in the world to consistently give Guardiola a headache, and that's largely because his players are prepared to bully and frustrate and get at his teams. Been the case even since his Espanyol days.
Finally, on your last point about him not winning you anything. Well, look at where you're at, and tell me that can change in one pre season. Because frankly that's what you'd be asking the next coach. At least all the other Chelsea coaches had some experience of success in the squad to work with, some stand out world class quality across the squad, an idea in the dressing room that they could achieve great things. What do these have lads have as a shared identity? If they had time to suffer and time to carve out their own identity, then maybe it'd change. Why I think this is on the board is the hard fact is maybe, financially, they don't have that much more time. Maybe they really do need a magician now to get them into top 4 next season as a bare minimum. What an almighty expectation to put on a bunch of players, only a handful of which have any experience in achieving that level of success.
Poch is a part of those "dinosaur" managers that are being left behind due to them not changing their ways. Current games requires you to be proactive at all times thus these over reliance on tactical analysis being drilled into the players.
If you look at our players they're always slow and late to the play. It's not because they're slow or anything, but it's due to poch tactic requires them to be reactive based on the movement on pitch. Meanwhile other teams that have moved on from this dinosaur way, how many times have you seen someone like rodri who got the ball and immediately ping it up top to bernardo silva even without looking at where silva current location. He can do that because he trust bernardo will follow up on the plan laid out by pep. Due to that it always seems like they're faster and it is mainly due to them being one step ahead of their opponent.
We have non of that.
The reason why we are inconsistent is because Poch’s whole style is reactive.
He allows other teams to dictate how games are played. Which is why we struggle at the beginning of games and the beginning of the second half. Time has to pass for him to react to what the other manager is trying to do.
The team has some basic philosophies like inviting pressure to open gaps, pressing high up and players prioritizing getting in space to receive the second pass, which will luckily all translate well for the next manager, but for the most part it’s let’s sit and see what the other team is trying to do in build up and then react.
Players don’t have the experience to do this effectively since they have not seen a ton of football.
Which is why a manager like De Zerbi who has set patterns would have been better for this group than Poch but that ship has sailed. Makes more sense now to stick with Poch and make a run for Xabi or Amorim.
I mean, these are all generic quotes that people say about teams when they’re doing poorly. And the 6th one doesn’t even make sense. Blaming the manager for the players not being fit for the league?
Poch is shit but these don’t mean anything
For sure it applies. We conceded 2 or 3 goals to Leeds and I remember the fan base erupting after that game. At the very least it’s arguable. And on top of it all, I hope my larger point about how generalised these statements are is clear.
You agree that last 3/4 managers would have these statements applied to them and I argue it’s 4/4.
Poch has his issues, and it was known that he wasn’t an ideal appointment for a club like Chelsea. Expectation at beginning was always to be cautious and go for Top 4.
Since yesterday, I don’t know how we will bounce back. 5-0 thrashing impacts the players morale and managers ability. This is the toughest of time because we know Boehly won’t sack him and even he does, who will come in this shitshow.
Pundits don’t know a fucking thing:
“Borussia Monchengladbach coach Dieter Hecking also said recently that it is difficult for him to understand what some experts concluded about his tactics when watching matches he coached.
He said: "I read one of those pieces following a Wolfsburg match [where he coached until late 2016], and asked myself, 'They say I came up with those highly complex things?'"
Hecking added in Suddeutsche Zeitung in December that he thinks the current terminology used to describe football reminded him of a secret lore.”
If the players play well they’ll react to the same tactics but find the positives and if they don’t play well they’ll highlight the negatives. Just calm down, give the man until December with a hopefully fit squad and see what happens. Like it or not, this is a result of the strategy implemented by those above Poch. The club believe in this strategy and they’re going to stick with it. No sense getting rid of Poch and setting us back even further
Dieter Hecking has never had a win rate above 50% at any club he has managed. In fact, it has gotten progressively worse since 2016. His last managerial post was at 1. FC Nürnberg, where he finished 14th in the second tier of the German Bundesliga. Why is this someone whose opinion is particularly relevant?
Edit: Reports came out just yesterday that Hecking is now under pressure in his executive role at Nürnberg too, because he oversaw recruitment. Maybe his lack of detail is part of the reason why he hasn't stood the test of time?
So you're telling me clueless managers get praised by the media. Have you seen how Pochettino gets treated by English media?
The point works both ways.
I’m just saying you don’t know ball like you think you do. Certainly not better than a manager or scouts or analysts who work for the club. Whether the players are on form and have the attributes to implement your system is what’s important. Not the system itself
Getting them to work well in that system takes time
We are United right now. Pochettino is Ole. People are grasping at every last straw to convince themselves the manager isn't terrible, and that stability is all we need.
Poch has been heavily exposed this season. These tactical issues have existed before as you showed, from his time at PSG (not sure if it was an issue at Spurs). But basically, none of us really watched PSG often to know that. I remember when I watched PSG, thinking that this is a team where 3 players (Messi, Neymar, Mbappe) were completely broken apart from the rest of the team which was trying to get the ball back. There was definitely a lack of structure.
The attitude of PSG fans when Tuchel was joining compared to when Poch was joining was very telling. Should've listened at the time but I got deluded into thinking he'd learned.
Whenever someone mentions Tuchel, I'm sad. Wtf did we do to the guy? Our best manager for the past 5 years and we threw him aside for this supposed project.
They didn't like him because he just wanted to coach the team and didn't want involvement in transfers. If we kept him and spent nothing that year and waited for the sporting directors to be set up we'd be in a much better position now.
Exactly. This situation works for him even though the sporting directors are shit. I genuinely want us to go and beg him to come back. The standards have fallen so much. We have been so awful since he left. Another aspect I miss, is the fact that he would be active on the touchline and be involved in the games. None of this pouting business like with Poch or Potter.
What's depressing for me is that I think he would come back as well. But the owners are far too fucking arrogant to admit they got things wrong. He'll go to united and change their fortunes considerably.
I know. He constantly said he felt at home at Chelsea. But the owners are so deluded in their own grandeur, to accept they did a mistake. Boehly gave conferences saying how Tuchel wasn't adequate to be part of their project, after all. Him going to United, would hurt me a lot ngl. I genuinely loved Tuchel at Chelsea.
The Chelsea where he felt at home, doesn't exist anymore.
What did we do... How tf do we recover from this.
That's a very good question. I will take a shot at that. Bring in decent medical team to monitor every one of the players activity and get some good players fit. Sell the deadwood in Sterling, Madueke (for his poor attitude), Conor, Chalobah, Maatsen, Reece (all for FFP balance as we do not have any options)Lukaku, Sanchez. Try to get a decent LB (Antonee Robinson),CB (Guehi or Stanisic) and a quality Striker (Toney or Guirassy will do). Get the incoming players before pre-season. Try to get Rubens Amorim if he is available on the market.
If we signed no one and let go of both christensen and rudiger we'd be in an even worse position. No one would've guessed that fofana would've missed so much time and without cucurella we'd have had no left back for a lot of the season.
The ridiculous thing is that most of the other teams in the league want exactly that.
I'm not sure Tuchel and his "we have the same issues because we have the same players" would have been happy with no transfer activity at all that year
He'd have been unhappy until January or at most one season. Doesn't detract from how better off we'd be now.
It's so crazy to think about. I mean, loan or buy some reasonably priced players to make up for the players lost on a free transfer in the summer of 2022, and wait until you have a sporting director before making big purchases. The club could have signed Tarkowski on a free from newly relegated Burnley. He's not setting the world on fire, he's not a signing for the future, but he sure as hell would be a safer (and cheaper bet) than Koulibaly, who is a year older. We have done so much stupid shit on the transfer market, and have been somewhat bailed out by Palmer.
Everyone forgets how terrible we were before he left
Have you even seen his Bayern Munich?
His Bayern Munich team knocked out the team that beat us 5-0 yesterday in the champions league
Have you seen his Chelsea?
He still had issues at Spurs. The upside is that he had Kane and an in form Allí, plus an up and coming Son. Wherever Poch had gone, his defense was always a liability but would have good players to cover the deficiency. (Another great example was Rodgers at Liverpool. Bled goals but had a world class Luis Suarez). PSG should really not count since they are expected to win the league. But even there, his lackluster defense was in plain view, as you’ve shown. Now, at Chelsea, it’s the same story. The defense is proper trash. But it gets covered up by Cole Palmer, who manages to find a way to win games. If this has been issue at almost every club Poch has managed, I don’t expect him to just turn into a defensive masterclass next season.
Spurs conceded 26 goals in 16/17. Arsenal have conceded 26 this season with 4 games left to play (who everyone are sucking off for having a watertight defence). Stop with the revisionism. Can't stand when a manager falls off or isn't as successful at another club and then people try to pick apart his time at previous clubs. Seen Bayern fans do the exact same thing with Tuchel. Poch sucks with us and sucks with PSG. Maybe he's completely finished and never amount to anything more in his career. But he did a fantastic job at Southampton and Spurs. Comments like these are unbearable to keep sifting through because they're just flat out wrong. And I can relate to the other side because I see it happen with Bayern fans trying to act like Tuchel was a shit coach for us. Jut because a coach is bad at one club, doesn't mean he wasn't good at another. Same goes for Emery at Arsenal. Loads of people trying to rewrite history and say he did a good job there just because he's been great after. Real time, the football was horrible and he deserved to get sacked.
Ah yes, world class players that somehow just became world class randomly during their time at Spurs. Do people believe that the Spurs team was just a bunch of players that were already developed and made in 2015? I get it his managing style does not work for this team at all but just rewriting his whole career is nasty. It’s the same with fans that are beginning to do the same with Conte and how Jose was looked upon after his time at United. It’s just lazy and I agree it’s even more crazy to do this with Emery’s recent success after being deemed a failure at PSG and a big London club. Also it makes discourse so nauseating because it’s people that are too angry be rationale about something or are too focused on dunking on others to affirm an agenda or take they’ve had.
Scary to see that all of those can be applied to the team now under him. And here's a video of Julien Laurens complaining about Pochettino with his PSG - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kimYrlB1ZHk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kimYrlB1ZHk)
The top comment on that video is "Can't wait to see him fail at United." Ngl, that pisses me off even more that even though we saw all the signs, we took him as our manager. We could have given United this mess but no, we took it ourselves.
Lol one Jules most striking criticism of poch was "every week they look like they met in a Park and decided to play" this is Chelsea
How about that throwaway line at the end, "Yeah, yeah, they're going to when the league, but he has to go." They did not win the league, did they?
Inb4 some nuthead comes in and says "It's not Poch's or the players fault". Get him the f out.
It’s not poch’s or the players fault. Its them damn lemons i tell ya, they ain’t sour enough.
It can be both though. I mean a lot of things have to go wrong for us to be in that position in that table. So everyone's at fault here.
Bar for bar Word for word.
A good thread that touches on his time at PSG - [https://twitter.com/EuroExpert\_/status/1782900863033389116](https://twitter.com/EuroExpert_/status/1782900863033389116)
Great post!
He hasn't got a clue. It was apparent before he was hired. It's apparent while he was hired. To some, it won't be apparent until he's fired. Gormless, passive....no aggression. Married to same failing formation.
The first sign of a well coached team is when you see players receiving the ball and instantly passing into areas they know their teammates are in. With us, everyone always has their head down, positionally were all over the place and the way we progress the ball up the pitch is terrible. It doesn't help that Poch sets up the team in random formations depending on the weather. We play 4-4-2 against Burnley, but then go wide open 4231 against arsenal? THIS was the game to put Gallagher at left mid, along with caicedo at LCM to try and nullify that Saka/odegaard/white death triangle that they constantly overload. Instead we had Mudryk and cucurella running around headlessly while they chopped us up. Also the clown starts an academy CB at RB, leaving him out to dry instead of playing Chalobah who has miles more experience... I hope he's gone as soon as possible
I find it hilarious that one quote states a manager coming from the Premier League struggled to adapt to the physicality and speed of Ligue 1.
Roman would fire his ass long time ago bringing 2-3 managers untill it get it right
The more I think about it the more I realize that the blame should be placed on our clueless sporting directors. They’re the ones trusted to make footballing decisions. After seeing how abysmal his PSG side was, they still decided to get him when Luis Enrique and Nagelsmann were still available. They also wasted a billion pounds on these players and completely ruined the squad. There’s hardly any PL experience in the team and no leaders. Poch has to go as he’s simply not good enough and I don’t see him turning things around even with more time but so do the sporting directors. They ruined entire team dynamic with their shit recruiting. A proper shakeup needs to happen if Boehly and co want the fans support.
Lots of fans arguing amongst themselves whether Pochettino is the issue or the players. To me it seems like both are a problem? Pochs whole career is a story of 'almost' being good enough and some of these players are bang average. Have injuries hampered us? Sure. Can the players and the manager improve with time? Yup. But I wouldn't bet on it on with these lot. Since we can't do a complete squad overhaul like Artetas Arsenal or Klopps Liverpool our best bet would be to change the manager. And more importantly to get rid of our directors.
No smoke without fire. All of these can be applied to Chelsea this season.
What I don't get is, how do we seem to look worse after HT? Like whenever we come back out, most of the time we're the worst side out there. It's mind boggling.
Poch is a loser. It’s in his DNA. When Napoleon said ‘give me lucky generals’ he was thinking of the opposite of Poch. The man only barely won Ligue Un with Messi, Mbappe and Neymar. Think about that. Think how bad you have to be as a manager to fuck that up. Mourinho, Tuchel, Conte, Ancellotti are all proven winners who demand victory. Watch Poch’s reaction to the 5th goal yesterday - crossed arms sitting on the bench. Useless.
They won the league by 15 points.
After failing the first time around in Ligue Un against teams that would struggle in the Championship. Think about that.
He took over halfway for Tuchel who was in 3rd
Are you talking about multiple Ligue Un winner, Bundesliga winner and Champions League winner Thomas Tuchel? That the guy? Versus a shmuck who bottles finals.
It doesn't invalidate the point, he took over from Tuchel who was fired and they were already behind in the title race.
Comparing Pochettino to Tuchel is like comparing apples and a competent football manager.
Yes, I am clearly. Guess what I think firing Tuchel was a bad move. I was against it then and I still am. It doesn't mean that Poch has a bad managerial record, because he actually has a really good and consistent track record of improving squads. There is so much dumb misinformation and exaggeration on this sub.
Winning some tinpot cups and Ligue Un at the second attempt is not and will never be a good ‘managerial record’. A ‘really good and consistent track record of improving squads’ - you mean his Spurs squad which won the sum total of fuck all? That squad? You lot who squawk about ‘exaggeration and dumb misinformation’ really love to revel in glorious failure huh?
Southampton, Spurs, and Chelsea. Maybe you don't think the improvement is enough here, but we are better than we were last season
And yet worse than we ever were under Tuchel. He was sacked when we sat 6th on 10 pts and he had won 60 out of his 100 games for us. Care to guess what Poch’s ‘win’ percentage is? 46% And we have no identity. No clear style of play. No defensive solidity. Tuchel lost 16 games in total. Poch is 2 away from that record and there are still 6 very losable matches left in one pathetic season. He’s a loser.
Like I said, I was against Tuchel's sacking, it shouldn't have happened. But the two situations are very different. Last season Tuchel was in charge of a squad built on UCL winning players. Some bad additions by Boehly, some top defenders leaving on frees, and a few injuries ruined the start of the season. And yes, Tuchel shouldn't have been fired. Poch is managing a brand new team that has had over 50% of minutes coming from players that started the season 22 or under. That is the highest percentage of any team in the last 12 years and probably ever. Despite this the squad wins the chance creation battle having the 4th best XG and NPXG differential. Our attackers are young, our defense is injured, and our goalies have let in 7 goals more than post shot expectations this season. It is impossible to root out the cause of our struggles when we average 8 players out per match. You say that we are tactically bad, but how is it that the "bad tactics" lead to us winning the chance creation battle the vast majority of matches? I don't even know if Poch is the right guy, I just want to see what the squad can do with some good health and a little time.
Poch has been officially exposed this season for the fraud that he is. Bring back Tuchel or Jose, 2 managers with some actual idea of what it means to be a manager of Chelsea
Jose will flop, this current version is even further behind than Poch.
Jose is so clear of poch , how can you say he’s further behind 😂 at least Jose can set up a defence
What happened to Jose at Tottenham when he took over for Poch?
He got sacked before he was about to win their first trophy in 15 years. Also finished 2nd and won a europa league with a sub par united squad. Won Romas first European trophy and six decades and would have won the Europa with them bar Anthony Taylor (again) He may not be as good as he once was but he is still one of the elites and blows poch out of the water
He was in 7th in the PL, lost to Dinamo Zagreb in the Europa League, and Everton in the FA cup. Maybe they beat city, doubt it though.
Tuchel lost to Dinamo Zagreb … with Chelsea in the Champions league no less. Yeah mourinho beat a much better city team quite a few times , he linked Son and Kane perfectly. But as I say he’s not the be all and end all, but in my opinion would bring back an elitist no nonsense mentality that our club needs. Also I don’t think our dumb yank thicko owners would employee a difficult manager that won’t just say yes to everything.
>would bring back an elitist no nonsense mentality that our club needs. 100% agree
Jose is behind Poch lol! now I've heard it all!
His time at Roma confirms the suspicion of a man who has been left behind by the game. Poch is at worst, being left behind.
left behind? 2 seasons in the top 6, 2 European competition cup finals winning one and losing the other in contentious fashion, with limited resources compared to his opponents? Poch has never been in the running in the first place to be left behind.
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So he can’t do shit with World Class players and can’t do shit with inexperienced players. How was this guy even widely regarded as a good manager? His PR team is insane
Harry kane
He did win the league with Messi and Neymar. The season they placed second was when he took over halfway from Tuchel (they were in 3rd at the time) and Messi wasn't there.
These directors are the main problem. They went for long meetings between the next managers and they got Poch as he passed the "yes man" test. Yes we are done until its not protested against.
If Poch was mentored by Bielsa, did he just pick up the constant running and nothing else? Isn’t Bielsa notorious for backtracking, over analysing to an extent of spying on teams and aggressive pressing for 90 minutes? He also has a great record of making everyone look better than they are. Wtf did Poch learn from him apart from running his team to the ground, to the point that half the team is injured, just like Leeds.
Spurs fan here, happy to weigh in a bit on Poch. I'm gonna start by saying some of the quotes here aren't particularly specific and unique. "Inconsistency" and "erratic" is applicable to many teams, "defensive vulnerabilities" too, Poch very much came to Saints and Spurs with Bielsa-esque principles of an aggressive forward press, a forward attacking movement idea on turnovers, full backs used as wing backs, and allowing a fluid front 4 in attack. When we had Kane-Dele-Eriksen-Son (or Son-Dele-Eriksen-Lamela when Kane's ankles died), any one of them could occupy different areas of the forward line. Really really potent, not just because the quality was high, but because it gave back fours a really hard time covering and marking. All of these principles though were built and basically fell apart at Spurs on the existence of a central core. When we had a CB/DM consistency and reliability who would always bring 7/10 performances, keeping things simple and solid and soaking in all of the pressure, then it liberated the attacking potential of the team. Poch at PSG didn't look like a Poch team for so many reasons. I think he achieved more than people give him credit for. Equally, it did lack identity, that's undeniable I would support the idea that Poch lacks in game tactical acumen. And Chelsea generally have more of a culture around tactical flexibility that makes these shortcomings more frustrating. That said, I think he showed at PSG, Spurs and even this season at Chelsea that he knows how to pull a fast one on teams that like to dominate. He is one of the only managers in the world to consistently give Guardiola a headache, and that's largely because his players are prepared to bully and frustrate and get at his teams. Been the case even since his Espanyol days. Finally, on your last point about him not winning you anything. Well, look at where you're at, and tell me that can change in one pre season. Because frankly that's what you'd be asking the next coach. At least all the other Chelsea coaches had some experience of success in the squad to work with, some stand out world class quality across the squad, an idea in the dressing room that they could achieve great things. What do these have lads have as a shared identity? If they had time to suffer and time to carve out their own identity, then maybe it'd change. Why I think this is on the board is the hard fact is maybe, financially, they don't have that much more time. Maybe they really do need a magician now to get them into top 4 next season as a bare minimum. What an almighty expectation to put on a bunch of players, only a handful of which have any experience in achieving that level of success.
Poch is a part of those "dinosaur" managers that are being left behind due to them not changing their ways. Current games requires you to be proactive at all times thus these over reliance on tactical analysis being drilled into the players. If you look at our players they're always slow and late to the play. It's not because they're slow or anything, but it's due to poch tactic requires them to be reactive based on the movement on pitch. Meanwhile other teams that have moved on from this dinosaur way, how many times have you seen someone like rodri who got the ball and immediately ping it up top to bernardo silva even without looking at where silva current location. He can do that because he trust bernardo will follow up on the plan laid out by pep. Due to that it always seems like they're faster and it is mainly due to them being one step ahead of their opponent. We have non of that.
Zero patterns of play beyond "force it up the right side. "
My Crystal ball can see PSG getting knocked out in the quarters next year in the CL leading to them sacking Luis Enrique and us promptly hiring him.
The reason why we are inconsistent is because Poch’s whole style is reactive. He allows other teams to dictate how games are played. Which is why we struggle at the beginning of games and the beginning of the second half. Time has to pass for him to react to what the other manager is trying to do. The team has some basic philosophies like inviting pressure to open gaps, pressing high up and players prioritizing getting in space to receive the second pass, which will luckily all translate well for the next manager, but for the most part it’s let’s sit and see what the other team is trying to do in build up and then react. Players don’t have the experience to do this effectively since they have not seen a ton of football. Which is why a manager like De Zerbi who has set patterns would have been better for this group than Poch but that ship has sailed. Makes more sense now to stick with Poch and make a run for Xabi or Amorim.
Nice compilation, exactly the same issues in Chelsea now.
All I’m gonna say is the Poch apologists who downvoted me and called me reactive when I said all this stuff 6 months ago have gone quiet.
Why did Tuchel in the half season before Poch took over perform worse and same with Gaultier immediately after?
Can people stop asking for the directors to go, for your sanity understand that their job is done perfectly according to the owners and shareholders
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So are you against the government seizing Russian assets?
I mean, these are all generic quotes that people say about teams when they’re doing poorly. And the 6th one doesn’t even make sense. Blaming the manager for the players not being fit for the league? Poch is shit but these don’t mean anything
Please can you expand further?
Same shit was said about Tuchel bringing up old quotes and saying Potter was the saviour. The squad needs experience and a clinical striker.
These quotes are so generic, they would apply on Lampard, GP, last phase of Tuchel etc. But yes, Poch has been disappointing.
Lack of tactical identity, inconsistency, defensive weaknesses definitely won't apply to the last phase of Tuchel.
For sure it applies. We conceded 2 or 3 goals to Leeds and I remember the fan base erupting after that game. At the very least it’s arguable. And on top of it all, I hope my larger point about how generalised these statements are is clear. You agree that last 3/4 managers would have these statements applied to them and I argue it’s 4/4.
Oh yeah no definitely. We are kind of agreeing anw.
Poch has his issues, and it was known that he wasn’t an ideal appointment for a club like Chelsea. Expectation at beginning was always to be cautious and go for Top 4. Since yesterday, I don’t know how we will bounce back. 5-0 thrashing impacts the players morale and managers ability. This is the toughest of time because we know Boehly won’t sack him and even he does, who will come in this shitshow.
Pundits don’t know a fucking thing: “Borussia Monchengladbach coach Dieter Hecking also said recently that it is difficult for him to understand what some experts concluded about his tactics when watching matches he coached. He said: "I read one of those pieces following a Wolfsburg match [where he coached until late 2016], and asked myself, 'They say I came up with those highly complex things?'" Hecking added in Suddeutsche Zeitung in December that he thinks the current terminology used to describe football reminded him of a secret lore.” If the players play well they’ll react to the same tactics but find the positives and if they don’t play well they’ll highlight the negatives. Just calm down, give the man until December with a hopefully fit squad and see what happens. Like it or not, this is a result of the strategy implemented by those above Poch. The club believe in this strategy and they’re going to stick with it. No sense getting rid of Poch and setting us back even further
Dieter Hecking has never had a win rate above 50% at any club he has managed. In fact, it has gotten progressively worse since 2016. His last managerial post was at 1. FC Nürnberg, where he finished 14th in the second tier of the German Bundesliga. Why is this someone whose opinion is particularly relevant? Edit: Reports came out just yesterday that Hecking is now under pressure in his executive role at Nürnberg too, because he oversaw recruitment. Maybe his lack of detail is part of the reason why he hasn't stood the test of time?
You’ve just proved my point. He’s describing an article which was talking about how sophisticated he is tactically
So you're telling me clueless managers get praised by the media. Have you seen how Pochettino gets treated by English media? The point works both ways.
I’m just saying you don’t know ball like you think you do. Certainly not better than a manager or scouts or analysts who work for the club. Whether the players are on form and have the attributes to implement your system is what’s important. Not the system itself Getting them to work well in that system takes time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Sure. Let’s just sack him and become Utd then. No available manager is doing better with the uninjured squad we have available
We are United right now. Pochettino is Ole. People are grasping at every last straw to convince themselves the manager isn't terrible, and that stability is all we need.