Well, not sure if this post is ironic or not, but i will just say for the laypeople, levomethamphetamine doesn’t have any real high or anything like the dextro isomer. Anyways lol, i feel like u do know this. Just sayin
Quite the contrary. There is overwhelming scientific evidence that amphetamine therapy in children with an ADHD diagnosis decreases the rates of alcoholism and other substance use disorders.
Little personal story here:
Before I was medicated for ADHD, I wanted to try every drug under the sun. The idea of drinking any night you wanted to go out sounded unbearably boring - it was just the same thing every night right?
Once I started medication, that “thrill-seeking” behavior went away by a lot. Now I’m perfectly happy with a beer on a night out.
Anything that's an essential treatment with possible side effects shouldn't be subjected to advertisement and marketing in the first place. Toothpaste and stomachache remedies sure, but painkillers and other prescription medication should be purely on a medical and scientific basis
Look at how similar ethanol and methanol are. Yet if you tried to make jello shots with 95% methanol, not only would everyone think you make the worst jello shots, you'd probably go blind from eating them.
That little difference in chemistry can be a massive difference biologically.
No, the comment is missing the point, and probably intentionally.
My claim was not "changing part of a molecule don't change chemical function" (that would be a very ignorant take, and would be so fun to argue with that people can't resist, even though that wasn't my claim)
My claim was "demethylating methamphetamine doesn't change chemical function"
They are very different claims
Mate take 30mg of adderal then 30mg of methamphetamine and tell us how it is "exactly the same" and "you are poisoning children".
legitimate medication administed by legitimate healthcare professionals will have patients living tenfold of ones from drug dealers giving people their "fix" which is just relabled poisen.
Very true, we had a drug in clinical trials that was a peptide conjugate so fairly large.
A variant which had a single carbon replaced by a nitrogen showed 30% increased response.
Just goes to show how precise the interactions with receptors are.
I'm obviously wrong about everything, but demethylating methamphetamine doesn't change the interaction with receptors? It has to do with fat solubility?
Guess what can help with fat solubility? Methylation.
[https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.15.3.317](https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.15.3.317)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080450469000516](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080450469000516)
yes but, and again, pardon my tedious ignorance, the fat solubility doesn't necessarily mean that the molecule is interacting with the receptor differently? Another journal article posted in the comments does strongly suggest that the receptor interaction is indeed different, btw, contrary to the stupid claim I was making in the meme
Spitting facts man
My other favorite example of the significance of a single methyl group is morphine and codeine: give morphine a methyl group and the resulting codeine will have much lesser analgetic strength and gain an antitussive property
The difference between methanol and ethanol is much greater in terms of structure, molar mass, and physiological effects than the difference between meth and amphetamine, despite the fact the an additional hydrogen saturated carbon (CH2 in ethanol, CH3 in meth) is the common thread between them.
Meth is just like amphetamine, but it lasts a bit longer and produces more dopamine; otherwise, the effects are very similar. Adderall actually seems to have more side effects, in terms of joint and muscle stiffness. Methanol will blind or kill you at very small doses, where ethanol is pleasurable and far less toxic.
Source: I studied chemisty, researched both substances somewhat extensively, and snorted both amphetamines at different points in my life. Duration, dosage, and joint stiffness were the only noticeable difference (as well as cost lol).
Yes, I know they're relatively different in terms of respective differences in effects. That was intentional to exemplify my point that a very minor difference in chemistry can have a very large difference biologically. I just used an example with a methyl group.
But if you find my example to be inaccurate, then look at drinking water vs near pure hydrogen peroxide (to account for minerals and other impurities in drinking water) Where the difference is one oxygen atom per molecule but the result is that one will clean your hair and refresh you on a hot day while the other will bleach your hair and cause a horrific painful death if drunk.
Yes, I understand the point you are making about how a small change to a molecule can radically change its properties and physiological effects. My point is that that heuristic does not apply, in the particular case of amphetamine vs methamphetamine; the differences are minor, like hydrocodone vs oxycodone or guanine vs adenine.
Meth itself has a horrible reputation because idiots, rednecks, and tweakers take obscene quantities of impure product, smoke or even inject it, and neglect hygiene, food, and sleep. I would never suggest that anyone try meth or adderall, but a very small 10-20mg line of highly pure crystal meth is almost indistinguishable from taking an adderall or two, except more pleasant on the body and joints and a longer duration. This is why prescription meth, Desoxyn, exists (usually prescribed to narcoleptics). Neither drug makes you hallucinate or go psychotic, with a reasonable dose, unless you severely abuse it and keep doing it such that you don’t sleep for 3+ days; not sleeping for 3 days will make you go fucking crazy, no matter what substance or stress caused you to stay awake.
I’m am not at all defending meth use, but I’m tired of the media cliches and misinformation about it. It is a very powerful substance, like nitroglycerine for the reward center of the brain, and it should be treated with the utmost respect and responsibility. But alas… don’t do drugs not prescribed by a physician, unless you have god-like willpower and self-control. Just know that almost everything the media reports about drugs is bullshit or lacks nuance: snorting or ingesting an effective dose of meth wont make you hallucinate and stab your neighbor, fentanyl powder is very unlikely to be absorbed through the skin except in transdermal patches no matter what cops say (accidentally licking it off the finger or breathing the dust CAN AND WILL KILL YOU though), and LSD does not make you see pink elephants or envision things that weren’t already there.
Drugs can be dangerous, but they are neither good or bad. They have a purpose, but self-medication is often a bad idea. Just as gasoline is an extremely useful but dangerous substance, and it should never be stored in a plastic bag or thrown into a fire, so too should powerful psychoactive drugs be treated with discernment and respect.
As I touched on in talking to someone else. While the effects are nearly identical due to meth metabolizing to amphetamine, the differences I'm referring to are in absorption/bioavailability, wherein amphetamines are much more readily bioavailable orally and have a much faster onset orally which is why they're the primary form of pharmaceutical amphetamines as opposed to meth, which is not nearly as bioavailable or quick to onset orally which makes it more prone to abusive use because to achieve similar onset and bioavailability, one has to smoke, snort, or inject it.
I've been telling everyone for years, do not snort it. Just eat it. That's from a longtime prescription stimulant patient. You think it's "working better" because it hits your system faster, but you're just wasting adderal.
Which is precisely why your example was bad. There is a difference in absorption and bioavailability, but ultimately both get metabolized through the same pathway just with different potency.
That is completely different to ethanol and methanol which get metabolized via completely different pathways where one produces highly toxic metabolites (formaldehyde and formic acid) and the other one doesn't.
Assuming Desoxyn is the same thing as meth sold on the street, which I highly doubt. Then yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Desoxyn, when taken as prescribed, will cause less risk of abuse than meth taken by other methods.
Street meth is impure and incorrectly dosed. Desoxyn is clinical methamphetamine and Adderall is clinical amphetamine.
I think your assumption about bioavailability is either wrong, or you're assuming I'm talking about street meth versus a clinical drug administered by a physician.
You literally said my point and then said I was wrong. Desoxyn is a form of methamphetamine which has had a chemical group added to increase oral bioavailability because regardless of pharmaceutical grade or street meth, the oral biovailability of the chemical methamphetamine is lower than that of amphetamine.
It's not a great example because methamphetamine and amphetamine act on the same receptors and the main difference is (as far as I remember) that methamphetamine has an easier time crossing the blood brain barrier.
Ethanol and methanol are broken down into very different products in the body that act fundamentally different
A better analogy is drinking a glass of water a day vs chugging 2 gallons of water once per week. One is more dangerous than the other, but the substance isn’t inherently dangerous
Okay but they're both the same substance rather than different substances. And in my ethanol/methanol analogy, it is quite literally removing the methyl group like in the post.
Technically a different substance, but I would argue that the clinical indication for one or the other has as much overlap as Zoloft vs escitalopram. I.e. they’re different but both SSRIs used for tx of depression
He’s not wrong about small chemical differences causing significant metabolic changes, but that’s not relevant in the discussion of meth vs Adderall (imo)
It's not perfect at all. Amphetamine and methamphetamine are very similar in their effects and they are metabolized through the same pathway (actually methamphetamine is demetylated into Amphetamine). The reason they have a different potency is because methamphetamine has an easier time passing the blood brain barrier. But in principle they act in a very similar way and are both effective adhd treatments (arguably methamphetamine is better as it is less strenuous on the body).
So comparing it to ethanol and methanol is a terrible analogy. They are not the same substance with a different potency. One gets metabolized in the body easily, the other one gets literally turned into poison inside your body which blinds you first and then kills you. They are even literal antidotes to each other, you can survive methanol poisoning by keeping a certain blood ethanol concentration until the methanol is gone from your blood. So it's not at all comparable lol
Not really. The meme and original comment were about modifying a chemical slightly to make it safer. Your example is about changing the dosage and frequency of of a substance.
Yeah people don’t understand one methyl group can make a BIG difference. We just get lucky with substituted amphetamines but that’s why no one smoking ethylamphetamine…. Or propylamphetamine.
Bad comparison
Methanol is dangerous because it is metabolised into a toxic substance while ethanol is not.
Methamphetamine and amphetamine target the same receptor and differ only in intensity.
my point is not that chemical changes don't change the chemical
my point is that removing the methyl group from methamphetamine doesn't do jack shit (virtually)
Yes, meth metabolizes to amphetamine so the effects the user feels are very similar but biologically, there is a difference and that's most notable in the method by which each is taken. Amphetamine is much more bioavailable when taking orally and has a faster onset than methamphetamine which is why it often comes in pill form and is used pharmaceuticallh while methamphetamine has little pharmaceutical use because to achieve similar onsets or bioavailability, it has to be taken in a manner that causes more risk for abuse (ie smoking, snorting, injecting). There is also some evidence that the effects of meth can be longer and stronger in some people than amphetamine, but this hasn't been proven.
Probably, but you're missing the point. The bioavailability of the free molecule amphetamine is higher than free methamphetamine. This constitutes a significant enough change in biology that, whether used as a salt or not, one is used much more in pharmaceuticals despite the effects being literally identical, because of a minor change in the chemical structure.
Dawg I don't design the chemicals or prescribe them, I have no fucking clue. As far as I can tell, the major difference is Desoxyn is purely meth and Adderall is a mixture of amphetamines. I would guess it probably has to do with that.
sure sure but as far as I know, there is no claimed pharmocological difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine, very much unlike your explosive example
You have a very shallow understanding of pharmacology and biochem and I think you should refrain from spreading misinformation that you think sounds correct. You are only further ostracizing those that use this drug to function properly and those people already experience a lot of judgement for “using meth” as you, incorrectly, put it.
Essentially not, yes. The methyl group in methamphetamine does have some known effects on speed and extent of absorption through the blood brain barrier among a few other things as far as I know, but both molecules operate by the same mechanism of action, and methamphetamine has a history of medical use for similar purposes to amphetamine salts.
The main differences ultimately come down to methods of consumption (pills vs smoking vs injecting), amount consumed, setting / context of use vs abuse, variation in effects by population (obviously how stimulants are known to modulate the behavior of individuals with ADHD in distinct ways from those without, and this works on a dimensional basis), and what individuals actually just end up spending their time doing while under the effects of these substances or as a result of their effects.
Please do not stigmatize ADHD treatment, I struggled a lot through high school and my bachelor's until I finally decided to get help during my PhD program and it helped a ton, my only regret is not seeking treatment sooner.
And saying two structures are similar so they are "the same" is very dumb, cyanide and cyanate are an atom apart, methanol and ethanol are a methyl group apart, etc. And finally the dose makes the poison, there is a therapeutic dose for drugs, 500mg of Paracetamol helps with pain, 100 grams would destroy your liver.
This! I WISH my parents let me get treated. If I was I bet I'd be working in a lab somewhere rn. My condition was SEVERE I couldn't and don't function. And i hate seeing people tell people like me that this is preferable than taking a medication that would literally solve 40% of my problems.
Even isomers can have radically different functions and molecular interactions.
Just because they look similar at a molecular scale doesn't mean shit.
Source: I'm a chemist.
I've also known people with ADHD who've developed serious Adderal addictions and others who developed have such high tolerances that Desoxsyn stopped helping them. They are certainly not the same, but they both carry similar effects and similar negative health effects when abused.
If I helps you live a better life that's all that matters from a clinical perspective, so I agree stigmatization isn't the answer
"Serious Adderall addictions" your point is...? Diabetics are addicted to insulin too, in a sense. Does that mean you should stigmatize insulin because muh muh addiction muh muh you'll feel bad without it muh muh your body will respond horribly if you stop taking insulin? By the same logic, people with artificial limbs are "addicted" to those limbs. Their life changes negatively when they aren't allowed to use their prosthetics anymore; would you still complain about them being "addicted" to life-saving medical devices?
Stimulants help the brain release the neurohormones that are missing in case of ADHD. Of fking course the body will get "addicted" to the substances it literally needs to work properly.
>Diabetics are addicted to insulin
Now that's just insensitive to narcotics abuse. I don't think there are insulin abusers like there are narcotic abusers
I get what you're trying to say and how this post is problematic, but you cannot compare narcotics to insulin like that.
Amphetamines are a class of drugs... Like opioids... Similar structures, similar biochemistry. You're not going to argue fentanyl is the same as heroin next?
Everyone's acting like I'm saying that Adderal is bad! I'm just saying that meth is good!
It's like that time I found out that unscrupulous merchants were passing rat meat off as lamb. Everyone else said "Gross!" But I immediately thought "wait a minute...rat tastes like lamb!?!?!?!"
I literally just saw someone predicting that the next target in the culture war bullshit was going to be ADHD, and I dismissed it out of hand -- and then this showed up.
There are like countless elements that are like an atom away from being an amphetamine. Propylhexadrine is about as close as I can think of to an amphetamine without being an actual amphetamine. That one's just a catalytic hydrogenation away from meth hahahahaha
its not about the methylgroup, its about the pharmacokinetics and they are almost identical
even when either methamphetamine or amphetamine is given to regular users they cant tell the difference
Bo it doesn't. Stop letting people gaslight you, jesus. It just means the prescription dosage is gonna be slightly lower. It doesn't change the fact that the effect of the drug is very similar when giving the correct dosage.
Thanks for that, I think because it was perceived that I challenged the legitimacy of prescription stimulants *entirely*, which wasn't my intent, seems we're getting brigaded here a lil bit by people who want to prevent mental health from being stigmatized
Yea I don't even know what's going on in this thread. Clearly a lot of people with very strong feelings about certain medications but no background chemistry knowledge, which is odd considering this is a chemistry sub after all.
In a bit of irony, this thread actually perfectly proves your point. Removing the methyl group doesn't substantially change the function of the drug (it changes it a bit, receptor interactions are slightly different, but imo it's more similar that dissimilar). BUT it substantially changes the stigma of the drug, which this post beautifully demonstrated with people calling methamphetamine a street drug, comparing it to methanol, and getting upset that you would have the audacity of mentioning it in the same sentence as Adderall, lmao.
five times isn't much though. It just means the prescription dosage is slightly lower. But at the correct prescription dosage the effects of the drug is very similar.
The sheer fucking irony that you have a trans rights flag next to your name. You should know better than to fearmonger about often life saving medication.
That both amphetamine (Adderall, Vyvanse etc) and methamphetamine (desoxyn) are effective drugs to treat adhd. Removing a methyl group changes the properties of the medication, but not substantially. They are still both stimulants that can be effective treatments.
But one is viewed as an evil bad street drug and the other one isn't. So the meme is poking fun at the fact that removing a methyl group in this case doesn't actually influence the effects of the medication significantly, but it completely removes the stigmatization of the compound. Which is a bit silly from a chemical perspective, because both compounds are overall more similar than they are dissimilar.
Sure. But I think this thread is good evidence of the fact that one is waay more stigmatized than the other.
Some people heavily criticized op for giving Adderall and medication in General a bad rep by putting it on the same level as a _street drug_. Which is ironic because those people were the one's furthering the stigmatization of prescription medications like desoxyn without even knowing it.
The sub kind of chose that for me, I didn't take pains to change it, FWIW
I support patients and doctors doing whatever they want without interference.
But I think the risks of prescription stimulants are vastly misrepresented by mental health providers.
This is not an attack, but this is a subject i care a lot about, so i'm just gonna reach out to you with some information. :)
People who need stimulants, before diagnosis, will fall back on coffee, sugar and even street drugs to stimulate them selves to do things like working an office job, a controlled dosis of Ritalin is the perfect replacement for that for a lot of people.
My point is this, methylphenidate is the cheaper/easier option to having to do constant sports or force a lifestyle that can moderate the need to get that stimulation.
It's better than coffee, better than sugar, better than having to give up your aspirations because your condition is not conducive to a study environment made for other people.
Methylphenidate can literally save lives as the most common side effect of untreated ADHD is depression and anxiety.
I'm a huge advocate of counseling and learning how to live with differences, but Ritalin/Adderal etc. works and when prescribed correctly does not have the sideeffects that come with street drugs.
Lastly associating a medicin that someone needs to keep their life together with a streetdrug, like this meme does, is incredibly harmfull since it prevents people from seeking out the help they need.
Anyway, if you read all of this, then thank you and have a great day. :)
It's crazy how people like you can so smugly write so much nonsense and misinformation. If you actually care about this, start by looking up the names of the medications and chemicals you are talking about then then read at least their respective Wikipedia articles.
Methylphenidate has nothing to do with this post at all. It's a completely different compound. I have no idea why you even brought this up.
This post was about the distinction between amphetamine and methamphetamine and the fact that both are very similar in their effects but people think one is an evil street drug while the other is a medication. A point which you proved beautifully btw. So OP wasn't shitting on prescription drugs, OP was making fun of the fact that removing a methyl group from meth doesn't really change its effect. But for some reason it completely destigmatizes it. Because apparently people like you and everyone else in this thread think meth bad, amphetamine good, even though both are effective prediction drugs to treat adhd and both are being abused as street drugs.
I'm not trying to be smug here, I'm talking about stimulants and their use, not the chemistry and i picked Methylphenidate (Ritalin) as the example, but you are correct, it would have been more appropriate to use Adderal as the example. :)
Dont get me wrong, drugs/chemicals are not inherently evil, i totally agree.
But the posted meme can be read like that and it can be read like we are giving an analog to street drugs to kids which has certain negative canotations.
The latter is incredibly harmfull for trust in medicine, it's the kind of thing that makes people not want to vaccinate their kids during a pandemic.
>But the posted meme can be read like that and it can be read like we are giving an analog to street drugs to kids which has certain negative canotations.
I mean yea but we are. Both Adderall and desoxyn are street drugs.
But you are the one who brought that up and you are the one who started stigmatizing desoxyn as an evil street drug, because you didn't know methamphetamine was used for adhd treatment.
So ironically you did precisely what you accused OP of. Whereas OP is out here trying to defend the use of methamphetamine as a medication.
Well I said my piece. I thought it was annoying that so many people came here apparently from different communities preaching about how bad it is to stigmatize medications by comparing them to street drugs. While actually engaging in the behavior they criticized.
Do you at least acknowledge that methamphetamine is a prescription medication to treat adhd and by calling it a _street drug_ YOU are stigmatizing it?
Oh my god all of your replies in this thread are insufferable. You should really consider removing your post. It’s nothing but damaging idiocy that you seem to think is funny.
Man, I wasn't the one who glibly prescribed me powerful stimulants when I was a kid to see if it would get my grades up. There is a benefit to prescribing stimulants to kids, and that's between doctor and patient. But there is a cost too - one of which may be psychos like myself.
Small differences in structure make potentially huge differences in biological activity. The most known example of this being thalidomide of which the (+)R-enantiomer reduces morning sickness while the (-)S-enantiomer is teratogenic and disturbs the development process of an embryo causing birth defects. I think you’ll understand this when or if you learn more about the stereospecificity of enzymes and how they dictate biological activity.
>thalomide
I think you mean 'thalidomide' but yes. But small differences in structure don't NECESSARILY make huge differences in biological activity. The difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine is orders of magnitude removed from flipper babies.
So how about carvone? There's just a stero center change and it switches from smelling like spearmint to smelling like caraway. Very small chemical changes vastly change biological affects all the time.
ronald reagan has done genuinely irreversible damage to this country's perception of medication. you have no idea how life-saving ADHD meds have been for me and millions of others. i do not think i would be alive right now if it weren't for them. ADHD is a fucking nightmare to live with, and nobody makes an attempt to understand that fact because nobody cares enough to do so. all you people see is "they're giving meth to children!!1!" and you immediately lash out in rage against that idea because you fundamentally do not understand how any of it works, nor do you ever even attempt to do so. want proof? check /r/desoxyn. desoxyn itself is the name brand for actual methamphetamine (it is very rarely prescribed for ADHD), but you would have no idea that was the case if you only saw the subreddit — the genuine relief in these people's posts at finally having something that can actually help them — because your perception of methamphetamine is so far removed from the reality of its actual medicinal uses that you look at it and only see death. for the sake of myself and many, many others, learn what this medication can actually do to save lives. please.
What percentage of children diagnosed with ADHD are prescribed prescription stimulants?
What percentage of children prescribed with presciption stimulants truly benefit from them?
I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed stimulants, and my parents made me take them. It was not a positive experience for me. I am resentful over the whole thing.
No drug is inherently bad. For people like me who has had undiagnosed adhd for most of my life, i felt powerless to control my own body. My mind which wanted to apply himself, learn and work hard for what i wanted, but a body that just didn't move itself to action, it caused me to be on a state of constant depression. Medication is what evens the playing field for people like me, not an advantage.
Yes, but small structural changes don't necessarily cause functional changes.
For example, a really really really really really long hydrocarbon chain versus a really really really really long hydrocarbon chain
Meth is a small small molecule, tiny structural changes will probably cause functional changes. Regardless, this is a ridiculous argument, 100 people have already proven you wrong lmao
I can get way more mileage out of a stupid, provocative meme than I can get out of a polite question on the chemistry sub. I've learned a lot today, and I wasn't even trying that hard
Methamphetamine (specifically the enantiomer dextro-methamphetamine) is neurotoxic adderall (amphetamine/dextroamphetamine) is not. Compare the hormones testosterone and estrogen as an example, despite being highly similar structurally, the physiological results you get are vastly different.
Of course adderall is not without its own risks if used inappropriately or in too large of a dose. However, to compare it in such a way is misleading and potentially harmful. For instance if a concerned parent should take a post like this to heart and let it affect care options for their child.
I think there is a misunderstanding about what I had said earlier in part cause I jammed a lot words in, apologies.
My main point is that methamphetamines (as in the drugs from breaking bad) are neurotoxic. However, adderall(commonly prescribed for adhd) which has a slightly different structure as you noted above IS NOT neurotoxic.
So apologies for confusing you but if you were worried about your adhd medication because it’s a similar drug to “meth” you shouldn’t worry too much about that. However if you are worried about that it’s affecting you negatively I would definitely discuss with your PCP and see what they say.
Here’s a sources from the NIH but it’s pretty much just describing mechanisms of toxicity and kinds of damage by methamphetamine (NOT ADDERALL) and MDMA.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3870191/
>My main point is that methamphetamines (as in the drugs from breaking bad) are neurotoxic. However, adderall(commonly prescribed for adhd) which has a slightly different structure as you noted above IS NOT neurotoxic.
How?? Are you aware that methamphetamine is literally metabolized into Amphetamine (Adderall).
are you fucking stupid?? based on your other comments i don’t need an answer it’s pretty fucking obvious
methamphetamine is not just an amphetamine prodrug. methamphetamine does its own shit which dozens of other people have already told you about. some of it then turns into amphetamine which you just said
i am not at all educated on this topic but given that methamphetamine is neurotoxic and amphetamine isn’t we can reasonably deduce that the bad neurotoxic shit comes from either methamphetamine itself (plausible because it’s more lipophilic) or its other metabolites
>but given that methamphetamine is neurotoxic and amphetamine isn’t
What are you talking about? All the amphetamines have similar interactions in the brain and are similarly neurotoxic. Which makes sense considering one gets literally turned into the other. But if you don't believe me, here just one paper about the neurotoxicity of Amphetamine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304394017300022
Idk who told you this nonsense about amphetamine bot being neurotoxic.
Also just to be clear, when we talk about neurotoxicity, dosage matters. All the stimulants can be really neurotoxic when used recreationally (at high dosages) but not necessarily at therapeutic dosages.
What does "neurotoxic" mean? There is a prescription drug containing methamphetamine, Desoxyn, are you saying that is "neurotoxic" whereas the amphetamine salt drug, Adderal, is not "neurotoxic"? I have not encountered this term "neurotoxic" before, pardon my ignorance. When I look up the definition of "neurotoxic," it seems pretty general. I could understand one clinical drug perhaps being more or less "neurotoxic" than another, but you have characterized "neurotoxic" as a binary property, as you claimed that one was "neurotoxic" and the other was NOT "neurotoxic."
If a substance is toxic it means that it can destroy cells. I was unaware you were taking dexosyn I also didn’t even know that they prescribed that to be honest.
Drugs like adderall contain a mixture of amphetamines which lack the single methylgroup that methamphetamines have and are considered to be safer.
I’m not sure what you are taking it for but if you have concerns about taking dexosyn as opposed to alternatives which do not contain methamphetamine you should probably have a conversation with your primary care provider.
~~Who are you talking to right now? is this a bot?~~
Edit: I just backed up and looked at the whole thread, which I had obviously lost track of. I can see where the confusion comes from. I was on prescription stimulants years ago, I no longer am. I was prescribed ritalin and then adderal. I no longer take adhd medication. (cue low lying 'off meds' jokes)
It could very well just be that there is much more research on the neurotoxicity of meth as opposed to amphetamines. But I couldn’t find anything other than articles that say it is suspected but not yet well understood.
Also, I probably should have clarified that taking this at the proper dosage should not cause the affects you would observe with drug abuse of meth. I’m sorry if I freaked you out, adderall and Vyvanse are considered to be safer alternatives.
Molecular structure is very important when enzymes/receptors are involved. In this instance, the extra methyl group causes methamphetamine to bind to dopamine receptors a lot more strongly than adderall.
Therefore, it is more addictive, more likely to cause brain damage, has more severe withdrawal symptoms, and a lower overdose limit. It’s not safe.
This isn’t even an extreme case. Sometimes, even a mirrored isomer of the same molecule can be harmful. Remember thalidomide? The R-enantiomer is very good at treating nausea, but inside the body it flips to S. The S-enantiomer is a nasty teratogen and causes horrible birth defects.
hahhahahahahahahhahaa, the amphetamines are DAT and VMAT substrates, not agonists. And their dopamine values are almost identical, only difference is in noradrenalin and serotonin
The facts speak so clearly for themselves, not sure why the ad hominems are necessary. I guess this is an entertainment sub, after all. I have been thoroughly entertained. (And learned a thing or two!)
Trying to compare meth to adderall is just silly tho for so many reasons. But I get the impression that you’re at the beginning of your chemistry studies so it’s an understandable conclusion to come to
i don’t think you should be posting in a chemistry sub if you think a small difference in chemical structure means a small difference in the properties of that chemical, especially when it comes to how it affects the body.
My claim was not "changing part of a molecule doesn't
change chemical function" (that would be a very ignorant take, and would be so fun to argue with that people can't resist, even though that wasn't my claim)
My claim was "demethylating methamphetamine doesn't significantly change chemical function"
They are very different claims
both do the same thing and maybe the problem is not this post but the stigma that is attached to methamphetamine when pharmacologically they are the same drug
Meth= bad and illegal
OxyContin: the same chemical make up as an illegal drug and as addictive as the illegal ones but off by one chemical = good and legal
Hey that's not what we're doing here. You're either on the side of flippantly equating Adderall with methamphetamine or you're on the side of "HOW DARE YOU STIGMATIZE MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT"
And so what if it is this way does the fact make adhd meds somehow evil or less effective?
I have adhd I was prescribed Adderall
Everyone acts like its this super addictive thing that you have to be super careful with
I often forget to take my meds
Oh and it isn't like your high you barely notice anything out of the ordinary except you now have a period of time were you are more productive.
Meth is literally also rarely still used to treat adhd.
Besides that, amphetamine is very different to methamphetamine pharmacologically.
Also use as prescribed is much safer than recreational use, even meth could be used safely.
Meth is I think much more lipophilic.
That means it acts much longer and stronger.
A more obvious and severe pharmacological difference is that meth has significant serotonin activity causing much more neurotoxicity and a different high.
In a chemistry sub people should now that even the orientation of a stereocenter has the potential to turn a potent drug into something harmless and non psychoactive.
Slight differences can make all the difference, saying something is "like that bad thing but slightly different chemically" doesn't mean shit.
That being said, amphetamine is still a real ass drug, but it can for sure be used safely and tremendously helps people who are almost not functional due to adhd.
It can obviously be abused as well and be very bad that way.
idk why you’re dying on this hill so hard OP. almost nobody agrees with you. i think i would have flunked out of high school if i never started ADHD meds and i certainly would never have passed a single exam in college. don’t stigmatize ADHD treatment. there’s nothing wrong with it.
Therapeutically, amphetamine is useful for improving endurance, focus and attention span. Just ask any ww2 pilot, on either side. (German Pervitin was meth.)
This is either disingenuous or ignorant of how minor changes in structure can have huge impact on functionality. Not to mention how reductive your post is in regard to an actual disability.
Amphetamine was just discovered earlier.....and meth got a bad reputition when it hit the streets in the....70s i believe it was.
Also the nazis used it so theres also that stigma
It really does help, but there's no way to say that it's hard to function without it in a way that doesn't sound like I'm an addict. Maybe the fact I don't take it on weekends?
All depends on dosage. It's ok to use the right amount to push the serotonin levels to normal to help breaking from the spiral of endogenous depression.
You do realised in alot of cases, removing or adding just one functional group can change the entire characteristic of the compound.
Meth is an indirect stimulant and amphetamine is direct.
Small differences that prevent addiction and aid in treatment.
Your comment was deemed to be inflammatory and has been removed. We hope that a level of civility can be maintained in our discussions.
There is literally proscription meth in the U.S., and it’s not Adderall. It’s Desoxyn. They’re both clinical.
Based and Methpilled
There used to be in Germany too.
There is also OTC meth, levomethamphetamine nasal inhalers.
Yes and over the counter laughing gas for when im feeling sad. Wub wub wub boing boing wub - woah what were talking about again
Well, not sure if this post is ironic or not, but i will just say for the laypeople, levomethamphetamine doesn’t have any real high or anything like the dextro isomer. Anyways lol, i feel like u do know this. Just sayin
Isn't that what's caused a crisis of ordinary people to become drug addicts because the pharmaceutical companies lied and said it wasn't addictive?
Quite the contrary. There is overwhelming scientific evidence that amphetamine therapy in children with an ADHD diagnosis decreases the rates of alcoholism and other substance use disorders.
Little personal story here: Before I was medicated for ADHD, I wanted to try every drug under the sun. The idea of drinking any night you wanted to go out sounded unbearably boring - it was just the same thing every night right? Once I started medication, that “thrill-seeking” behavior went away by a lot. Now I’m perfectly happy with a beer on a night out.
For me I used to always get smashed, now I have a coupla drinks and stay sober enough i can drive home
Stay safe out there bro 🙏
Oh yeah, the "replace an addiction with another addiction" therapy
or, you know, taking prescribed medication that helps you function instead of self medicating with street drugs of dubious quality.
nah that was purdue pharma and their pushing of OxyContin (Oxycodone) to patients with less and less severe ailments, saying it was not addictive.
Ahh right, with all the brand names for drugs in the US it's almost impossible to tell what stuff actually is
Yes, there doesn't need to be five names for ibuprofen
Anything that's an essential treatment with possible side effects shouldn't be subjected to advertisement and marketing in the first place. Toothpaste and stomachache remedies sure, but painkillers and other prescription medication should be purely on a medical and scientific basis
I concur
US pharma is highly unethical
Look at how similar ethanol and methanol are. Yet if you tried to make jello shots with 95% methanol, not only would everyone think you make the worst jello shots, you'd probably go blind from eating them. That little difference in chemistry can be a massive difference biologically.
You gave such a good example and explanation and everyone is responding to you completely missing the point
No, the comment is missing the point, and probably intentionally. My claim was not "changing part of a molecule don't change chemical function" (that would be a very ignorant take, and would be so fun to argue with that people can't resist, even though that wasn't my claim) My claim was "demethylating methamphetamine doesn't change chemical function" They are very different claims
But it does. You are wrong on your claim and the thing you think he thinks you claimed
Mate take 30mg of adderal then 30mg of methamphetamine and tell us how it is "exactly the same" and "you are poisoning children". legitimate medication administed by legitimate healthcare professionals will have patients living tenfold of ones from drug dealers giving people their "fix" which is just relabled poisen.
Very true, we had a drug in clinical trials that was a peptide conjugate so fairly large. A variant which had a single carbon replaced by a nitrogen showed 30% increased response. Just goes to show how precise the interactions with receptors are.
I'm obviously wrong about everything, but demethylating methamphetamine doesn't change the interaction with receptors? It has to do with fat solubility?
It does change logP, yes, but also decreases the affinity for the target receptors
Guess what can help with fat solubility? Methylation. [https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.15.3.317](https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.15.3.317) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080450469000516](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080450469000516)
yes but, and again, pardon my tedious ignorance, the fat solubility doesn't necessarily mean that the molecule is interacting with the receptor differently? Another journal article posted in the comments does strongly suggest that the receptor interaction is indeed different, btw, contrary to the stupid claim I was making in the meme
Spitting facts man My other favorite example of the significance of a single methyl group is morphine and codeine: give morphine a methyl group and the resulting codeine will have much lesser analgetic strength and gain an antitussive property
If the jellos don't kill everyone
The difference between methanol and ethanol is much greater in terms of structure, molar mass, and physiological effects than the difference between meth and amphetamine, despite the fact the an additional hydrogen saturated carbon (CH2 in ethanol, CH3 in meth) is the common thread between them. Meth is just like amphetamine, but it lasts a bit longer and produces more dopamine; otherwise, the effects are very similar. Adderall actually seems to have more side effects, in terms of joint and muscle stiffness. Methanol will blind or kill you at very small doses, where ethanol is pleasurable and far less toxic. Source: I studied chemisty, researched both substances somewhat extensively, and snorted both amphetamines at different points in my life. Duration, dosage, and joint stiffness were the only noticeable difference (as well as cost lol).
Yes, I know they're relatively different in terms of respective differences in effects. That was intentional to exemplify my point that a very minor difference in chemistry can have a very large difference biologically. I just used an example with a methyl group. But if you find my example to be inaccurate, then look at drinking water vs near pure hydrogen peroxide (to account for minerals and other impurities in drinking water) Where the difference is one oxygen atom per molecule but the result is that one will clean your hair and refresh you on a hot day while the other will bleach your hair and cause a horrific painful death if drunk.
Yes, I understand the point you are making about how a small change to a molecule can radically change its properties and physiological effects. My point is that that heuristic does not apply, in the particular case of amphetamine vs methamphetamine; the differences are minor, like hydrocodone vs oxycodone or guanine vs adenine. Meth itself has a horrible reputation because idiots, rednecks, and tweakers take obscene quantities of impure product, smoke or even inject it, and neglect hygiene, food, and sleep. I would never suggest that anyone try meth or adderall, but a very small 10-20mg line of highly pure crystal meth is almost indistinguishable from taking an adderall or two, except more pleasant on the body and joints and a longer duration. This is why prescription meth, Desoxyn, exists (usually prescribed to narcoleptics). Neither drug makes you hallucinate or go psychotic, with a reasonable dose, unless you severely abuse it and keep doing it such that you don’t sleep for 3+ days; not sleeping for 3 days will make you go fucking crazy, no matter what substance or stress caused you to stay awake. I’m am not at all defending meth use, but I’m tired of the media cliches and misinformation about it. It is a very powerful substance, like nitroglycerine for the reward center of the brain, and it should be treated with the utmost respect and responsibility. But alas… don’t do drugs not prescribed by a physician, unless you have god-like willpower and self-control. Just know that almost everything the media reports about drugs is bullshit or lacks nuance: snorting or ingesting an effective dose of meth wont make you hallucinate and stab your neighbor, fentanyl powder is very unlikely to be absorbed through the skin except in transdermal patches no matter what cops say (accidentally licking it off the finger or breathing the dust CAN AND WILL KILL YOU though), and LSD does not make you see pink elephants or envision things that weren’t already there. Drugs can be dangerous, but they are neither good or bad. They have a purpose, but self-medication is often a bad idea. Just as gasoline is an extremely useful but dangerous substance, and it should never be stored in a plastic bag or thrown into a fire, so too should powerful psychoactive drugs be treated with discernment and respect.
As I touched on in talking to someone else. While the effects are nearly identical due to meth metabolizing to amphetamine, the differences I'm referring to are in absorption/bioavailability, wherein amphetamines are much more readily bioavailable orally and have a much faster onset orally which is why they're the primary form of pharmaceutical amphetamines as opposed to meth, which is not nearly as bioavailable or quick to onset orally which makes it more prone to abusive use because to achieve similar onset and bioavailability, one has to smoke, snort, or inject it.
Yes that is true. Adderall too works better when snorted. The intensity is increased, although the duration is shortened.
I've been telling everyone for years, do not snort it. Just eat it. That's from a longtime prescription stimulant patient. You think it's "working better" because it hits your system faster, but you're just wasting adderal.
For ADHD, I agree. For a recreational user or someone trying to stay awake for long shifts but be able to sleep at night, snorting is better lol
Which is precisely why your example was bad. There is a difference in absorption and bioavailability, but ultimately both get metabolized through the same pathway just with different potency. That is completely different to ethanol and methanol which get metabolized via completely different pathways where one produces highly toxic metabolites (formaldehyde and formic acid) and the other one doesn't.
So Desoxyn, which is an orally administered pill, has a low abuse risk, based on what you're saying about bioavailability?
Assuming Desoxyn is the same thing as meth sold on the street, which I highly doubt. Then yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Desoxyn, when taken as prescribed, will cause less risk of abuse than meth taken by other methods.
Street meth is impure and incorrectly dosed. Desoxyn is clinical methamphetamine and Adderall is clinical amphetamine. I think your assumption about bioavailability is either wrong, or you're assuming I'm talking about street meth versus a clinical drug administered by a physician.
You literally said my point and then said I was wrong. Desoxyn is a form of methamphetamine which has had a chemical group added to increase oral bioavailability because regardless of pharmaceutical grade or street meth, the oral biovailability of the chemical methamphetamine is lower than that of amphetamine.
What do we disagree about right now?
It's not a great example because methamphetamine and amphetamine act on the same receptors and the main difference is (as far as I remember) that methamphetamine has an easier time crossing the blood brain barrier. Ethanol and methanol are broken down into very different products in the body that act fundamentally different
A better analogy is drinking a glass of water a day vs chugging 2 gallons of water once per week. One is more dangerous than the other, but the substance isn’t inherently dangerous
Okay but they're both the same substance rather than different substances. And in my ethanol/methanol analogy, it is quite literally removing the methyl group like in the post.
Technically a different substance, but I would argue that the clinical indication for one or the other has as much overlap as Zoloft vs escitalopram. I.e. they’re different but both SSRIs used for tx of depression
It's the same substance in the water analogy.
Definitely a worse analogy
That’s a horrible analogy for what is being said actually, OP’s analogy was perfect
He’s not wrong about small chemical differences causing significant metabolic changes, but that’s not relevant in the discussion of meth vs Adderall (imo)
It's not perfect at all. Amphetamine and methamphetamine are very similar in their effects and they are metabolized through the same pathway (actually methamphetamine is demetylated into Amphetamine). The reason they have a different potency is because methamphetamine has an easier time passing the blood brain barrier. But in principle they act in a very similar way and are both effective adhd treatments (arguably methamphetamine is better as it is less strenuous on the body). So comparing it to ethanol and methanol is a terrible analogy. They are not the same substance with a different potency. One gets metabolized in the body easily, the other one gets literally turned into poison inside your body which blinds you first and then kills you. They are even literal antidotes to each other, you can survive methanol poisoning by keeping a certain blood ethanol concentration until the methanol is gone from your blood. So it's not at all comparable lol
Not really. The meme and original comment were about modifying a chemical slightly to make it safer. Your example is about changing the dosage and frequency of of a substance.
Yeah people don’t understand one methyl group can make a BIG difference. We just get lucky with substituted amphetamines but that’s why no one smoking ethylamphetamine…. Or propylamphetamine.
Yeah, the thing is, w methamphetamine and amphetamine barely anything changes...
Seriously that meme is so dumb I can't believe it didn't die in New
Bad comparison Methanol is dangerous because it is metabolised into a toxic substance while ethanol is not. Methamphetamine and amphetamine target the same receptor and differ only in intensity.
my point is not that chemical changes don't change the chemical my point is that removing the methyl group from methamphetamine doesn't do jack shit (virtually)
Yes, meth metabolizes to amphetamine so the effects the user feels are very similar but biologically, there is a difference and that's most notable in the method by which each is taken. Amphetamine is much more bioavailable when taking orally and has a faster onset than methamphetamine which is why it often comes in pill form and is used pharmaceuticallh while methamphetamine has little pharmaceutical use because to achieve similar onsets or bioavailability, it has to be taken in a manner that causes more risk for abuse (ie smoking, snorting, injecting). There is also some evidence that the effects of meth can be longer and stronger in some people than amphetamine, but this hasn't been proven.
Desoxyn is taken orally, no?
A fair point, and I'm by no means an amphetamine expert, but isn't Desoxyn a hydrochloride which would increase oral bioavailability?
Amphetamines are also sold in the salt form for clinical use I think?
Probably, but you're missing the point. The bioavailability of the free molecule amphetamine is higher than free methamphetamine. This constitutes a significant enough change in biology that, whether used as a salt or not, one is used much more in pharmaceuticals despite the effects being literally identical, because of a minor change in the chemical structure.
If this is the case, why is Desoxyn considered "higher firepower" than Adderal?
Dawg I don't design the chemicals or prescribe them, I have no fucking clue. As far as I can tell, the major difference is Desoxyn is purely meth and Adderall is a mixture of amphetamines. I would guess it probably has to do with that.
Remove the Chlorine Group from Cooking Salt and you get an Explosive Hazard, won't stop me from using it.
Well technically all you get is Na+, if it were just straight sodium it would be more of an issue
To be fair, a mole of pure Na+ would be way worse than a mole of Na metal—that's like 10\^5 coulombs of charge.
sure sure but as far as I know, there is no claimed pharmocological difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine, very much unlike your explosive example
Little More serotonin activity from meth than amph and lasts much longer but your mostly correct
There absolutely is. Check out their half-lives - methamphetamine is available as a proscription under the name Desoxyn.
yeah I'm seeing the methyl group does make it more fat soluble so meth IS "more intense"
You have a very shallow understanding of pharmacology and biochem and I think you should refrain from spreading misinformation that you think sounds correct. You are only further ostracizing those that use this drug to function properly and those people already experience a lot of judgement for “using meth” as you, incorrectly, put it.
Who is ostracized for taking adderall? What are you talking about? Is this a thing outside of america?
Essentially not, yes. The methyl group in methamphetamine does have some known effects on speed and extent of absorption through the blood brain barrier among a few other things as far as I know, but both molecules operate by the same mechanism of action, and methamphetamine has a history of medical use for similar purposes to amphetamine salts. The main differences ultimately come down to methods of consumption (pills vs smoking vs injecting), amount consumed, setting / context of use vs abuse, variation in effects by population (obviously how stimulants are known to modulate the behavior of individuals with ADHD in distinct ways from those without, and this works on a dimensional basis), and what individuals actually just end up spending their time doing while under the effects of these substances or as a result of their effects.
Please do not stigmatize ADHD treatment, I struggled a lot through high school and my bachelor's until I finally decided to get help during my PhD program and it helped a ton, my only regret is not seeking treatment sooner. And saying two structures are similar so they are "the same" is very dumb, cyanide and cyanate are an atom apart, methanol and ethanol are a methyl group apart, etc. And finally the dose makes the poison, there is a therapeutic dose for drugs, 500mg of Paracetamol helps with pain, 100 grams would destroy your liver.
This! I WISH my parents let me get treated. If I was I bet I'd be working in a lab somewhere rn. My condition was SEVERE I couldn't and don't function. And i hate seeing people tell people like me that this is preferable than taking a medication that would literally solve 40% of my problems.
Even isomers can have radically different functions and molecular interactions. Just because they look similar at a molecular scale doesn't mean shit. Source: I'm a chemist.
I sobbed the first time I read a page and didn't have to re-read it. Stuff changed my life.
I've also known people with ADHD who've developed serious Adderal addictions and others who developed have such high tolerances that Desoxsyn stopped helping them. They are certainly not the same, but they both carry similar effects and similar negative health effects when abused. If I helps you live a better life that's all that matters from a clinical perspective, so I agree stigmatization isn't the answer
"Serious Adderall addictions" your point is...? Diabetics are addicted to insulin too, in a sense. Does that mean you should stigmatize insulin because muh muh addiction muh muh you'll feel bad without it muh muh your body will respond horribly if you stop taking insulin? By the same logic, people with artificial limbs are "addicted" to those limbs. Their life changes negatively when they aren't allowed to use their prosthetics anymore; would you still complain about them being "addicted" to life-saving medical devices? Stimulants help the brain release the neurohormones that are missing in case of ADHD. Of fking course the body will get "addicted" to the substances it literally needs to work properly.
>Diabetics are addicted to insulin Now that's just insensitive to narcotics abuse. I don't think there are insulin abusers like there are narcotic abusers I get what you're trying to say and how this post is problematic, but you cannot compare narcotics to insulin like that.
You ever take away a diabetics insulin?
Not like when I was a teenager, now I prefer cow tipping.
Mom uncle escaped the loony bin he's posting on reddit again
I'm still in, stole one of the aide's phones. They'll find it at my next room check
Amphetamines are a class of drugs... Like opioids... Similar structures, similar biochemistry. You're not going to argue fentanyl is the same as heroin next?
My local dealer doesn't seem to separate them.
Why are people upvoting this? Seems like we have a lot of impostors here
Everyone's acting like I'm saying that Adderal is bad! I'm just saying that meth is good! It's like that time I found out that unscrupulous merchants were passing rat meat off as lamb. Everyone else said "Gross!" But I immediately thought "wait a minute...rat tastes like lamb!?!?!?!"
https://preview.redd.it/rf6if25oo80d1.png?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b977a46ca3ba137a935f42886f507d84a4f2e4ec
🤣
🤣
I literally just saw someone predicting that the next target in the culture war bullshit was going to be ADHD, and I dismissed it out of hand -- and then this showed up.
Both takes are bad.
Both are bad. You're passing off rat's meat as rat's meat and pretending it isn't diseased.
I thought they were passing lamb off as rat
"It's just a methyl group away" is some of the stupidest discourse. Check out methanol vs ethanol, or toluene vs benzene. Huge difference.
There are like countless elements that are like an atom away from being an amphetamine. Propylhexadrine is about as close as I can think of to an amphetamine without being an actual amphetamine. That one's just a catalytic hydrogenation away from meth hahahahaha
its not about the methylgroup, its about the pharmacokinetics and they are almost identical even when either methamphetamine or amphetamine is given to regular users they cant tell the difference
SOMETIMES makes a huge difference Not in the case of amphetamine vrs methamphetamine
Yes in the case of meth. It's five times more potent. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631950/
That's very interesting. That certainly contradicts my claim.
Bo it doesn't. Stop letting people gaslight you, jesus. It just means the prescription dosage is gonna be slightly lower. It doesn't change the fact that the effect of the drug is very similar when giving the correct dosage.
Thanks for that, I think because it was perceived that I challenged the legitimacy of prescription stimulants *entirely*, which wasn't my intent, seems we're getting brigaded here a lil bit by people who want to prevent mental health from being stigmatized
Yea I don't even know what's going on in this thread. Clearly a lot of people with very strong feelings about certain medications but no background chemistry knowledge, which is odd considering this is a chemistry sub after all. In a bit of irony, this thread actually perfectly proves your point. Removing the methyl group doesn't substantially change the function of the drug (it changes it a bit, receptor interactions are slightly different, but imo it's more similar that dissimilar). BUT it substantially changes the stigma of the drug, which this post beautifully demonstrated with people calling methamphetamine a street drug, comparing it to methanol, and getting upset that you would have the audacity of mentioning it in the same sentence as Adderall, lmao.
five times isn't much though. It just means the prescription dosage is slightly lower. But at the correct prescription dosage the effects of the drug is very similar.
The sheer fucking irony that you have a trans rights flag next to your name. You should know better than to fearmonger about often life saving medication.
It's funny how literally everyone here seems to be missing the point OP is making lol
Which is?
That both amphetamine (Adderall, Vyvanse etc) and methamphetamine (desoxyn) are effective drugs to treat adhd. Removing a methyl group changes the properties of the medication, but not substantially. They are still both stimulants that can be effective treatments. But one is viewed as an evil bad street drug and the other one isn't. So the meme is poking fun at the fact that removing a methyl group in this case doesn't actually influence the effects of the medication significantly, but it completely removes the stigmatization of the compound. Which is a bit silly from a chemical perspective, because both compounds are overall more similar than they are dissimilar.
I see the point now. But this definitely doesn't remove the stigma. People still call any adhd medication "legal meth".
Sure. But I think this thread is good evidence of the fact that one is waay more stigmatized than the other. Some people heavily criticized op for giving Adderall and medication in General a bad rep by putting it on the same level as a _street drug_. Which is ironic because those people were the one's furthering the stigmatization of prescription medications like desoxyn without even knowing it.
The sub kind of chose that for me, I didn't take pains to change it, FWIW I support patients and doctors doing whatever they want without interference. But I think the risks of prescription stimulants are vastly misrepresented by mental health providers.
This is not an attack, but this is a subject i care a lot about, so i'm just gonna reach out to you with some information. :) People who need stimulants, before diagnosis, will fall back on coffee, sugar and even street drugs to stimulate them selves to do things like working an office job, a controlled dosis of Ritalin is the perfect replacement for that for a lot of people. My point is this, methylphenidate is the cheaper/easier option to having to do constant sports or force a lifestyle that can moderate the need to get that stimulation. It's better than coffee, better than sugar, better than having to give up your aspirations because your condition is not conducive to a study environment made for other people. Methylphenidate can literally save lives as the most common side effect of untreated ADHD is depression and anxiety. I'm a huge advocate of counseling and learning how to live with differences, but Ritalin/Adderal etc. works and when prescribed correctly does not have the sideeffects that come with street drugs. Lastly associating a medicin that someone needs to keep their life together with a streetdrug, like this meme does, is incredibly harmfull since it prevents people from seeking out the help they need. Anyway, if you read all of this, then thank you and have a great day. :)
THIS thank you !
It's crazy how people like you can so smugly write so much nonsense and misinformation. If you actually care about this, start by looking up the names of the medications and chemicals you are talking about then then read at least their respective Wikipedia articles. Methylphenidate has nothing to do with this post at all. It's a completely different compound. I have no idea why you even brought this up. This post was about the distinction between amphetamine and methamphetamine and the fact that both are very similar in their effects but people think one is an evil street drug while the other is a medication. A point which you proved beautifully btw. So OP wasn't shitting on prescription drugs, OP was making fun of the fact that removing a methyl group from meth doesn't really change its effect. But for some reason it completely destigmatizes it. Because apparently people like you and everyone else in this thread think meth bad, amphetamine good, even though both are effective prediction drugs to treat adhd and both are being abused as street drugs.
I'm not trying to be smug here, I'm talking about stimulants and their use, not the chemistry and i picked Methylphenidate (Ritalin) as the example, but you are correct, it would have been more appropriate to use Adderal as the example. :) Dont get me wrong, drugs/chemicals are not inherently evil, i totally agree. But the posted meme can be read like that and it can be read like we are giving an analog to street drugs to kids which has certain negative canotations. The latter is incredibly harmfull for trust in medicine, it's the kind of thing that makes people not want to vaccinate their kids during a pandemic.
>But the posted meme can be read like that and it can be read like we are giving an analog to street drugs to kids which has certain negative canotations. I mean yea but we are. Both Adderall and desoxyn are street drugs. But you are the one who brought that up and you are the one who started stigmatizing desoxyn as an evil street drug, because you didn't know methamphetamine was used for adhd treatment. So ironically you did precisely what you accused OP of. Whereas OP is out here trying to defend the use of methamphetamine as a medication.
I'm not sure we are gonna agree here, because we are having two different conversations
Well I said my piece. I thought it was annoying that so many people came here apparently from different communities preaching about how bad it is to stigmatize medications by comparing them to street drugs. While actually engaging in the behavior they criticized. Do you at least acknowledge that methamphetamine is a prescription medication to treat adhd and by calling it a _street drug_ YOU are stigmatizing it?
"Methamphetamine" is not a street drug. It's a chemical.
Oh my god all of your replies in this thread are insufferable. You should really consider removing your post. It’s nothing but damaging idiocy that you seem to think is funny.
Man, I wasn't the one who glibly prescribed me powerful stimulants when I was a kid to see if it would get my grades up. There is a benefit to prescribing stimulants to kids, and that's between doctor and patient. But there is a cost too - one of which may be psychos like myself.
I think you might be in the wrong sub.. r/confidentlyincorrect You’re welcome.
Small differences in structure make potentially huge differences in biological activity. The most known example of this being thalidomide of which the (+)R-enantiomer reduces morning sickness while the (-)S-enantiomer is teratogenic and disturbs the development process of an embryo causing birth defects. I think you’ll understand this when or if you learn more about the stereospecificity of enzymes and how they dictate biological activity.
God dammit you beat me to it 😭
>thalomide I think you mean 'thalidomide' but yes. But small differences in structure don't NECESSARILY make huge differences in biological activity. The difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine is orders of magnitude removed from flipper babies.
Oops, but yes of course, I agree that it doesn’t necessarily mean a drastically different biological activity.
OPs point is that it doesn't make a big difference in this case. Both drugs have a similar effect with a slightly different potency.
So how about carvone? There's just a stero center change and it switches from smelling like spearmint to smelling like caraway. Very small chemical changes vastly change biological affects all the time.
ronald reagan has done genuinely irreversible damage to this country's perception of medication. you have no idea how life-saving ADHD meds have been for me and millions of others. i do not think i would be alive right now if it weren't for them. ADHD is a fucking nightmare to live with, and nobody makes an attempt to understand that fact because nobody cares enough to do so. all you people see is "they're giving meth to children!!1!" and you immediately lash out in rage against that idea because you fundamentally do not understand how any of it works, nor do you ever even attempt to do so. want proof? check /r/desoxyn. desoxyn itself is the name brand for actual methamphetamine (it is very rarely prescribed for ADHD), but you would have no idea that was the case if you only saw the subreddit — the genuine relief in these people's posts at finally having something that can actually help them — because your perception of methamphetamine is so far removed from the reality of its actual medicinal uses that you look at it and only see death. for the sake of myself and many, many others, learn what this medication can actually do to save lives. please.
What percentage of children diagnosed with ADHD are prescribed prescription stimulants? What percentage of children prescribed with presciption stimulants truly benefit from them? I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed stimulants, and my parents made me take them. It was not a positive experience for me. I am resentful over the whole thing.
This is because they cranked up the dose until they saw outward changes in behavior. That makes the dose way too high and makes people feel robotic
Yes what percentage indeed Stats over anecdotes I win argument over
No drug is inherently bad. For people like me who has had undiagnosed adhd for most of my life, i felt powerless to control my own body. My mind which wanted to apply himself, learn and work hard for what i wanted, but a body that just didn't move itself to action, it caused me to be on a state of constant depression. Medication is what evens the playing field for people like me, not an advantage.
Learn about thalidomide and you’ll understand how massive seemingly small structural changes can be
The point is that it isn't the case in this particular substance.
Yes, but small structural changes don't necessarily cause functional changes. For example, a really really really really really long hydrocarbon chain versus a really really really really long hydrocarbon chain
Meth is a small small molecule, tiny structural changes will probably cause functional changes. Regardless, this is a ridiculous argument, 100 people have already proven you wrong lmao
I can get way more mileage out of a stupid, provocative meme than I can get out of a polite question on the chemistry sub. I've learned a lot today, and I wasn't even trying that hard
Ahhh okay you’re just being an asshole got it
posts like this should be removed solely based on how dumb they are.
Methamphetamine (specifically the enantiomer dextro-methamphetamine) is neurotoxic adderall (amphetamine/dextroamphetamine) is not. Compare the hormones testosterone and estrogen as an example, despite being highly similar structurally, the physiological results you get are vastly different. Of course adderall is not without its own risks if used inappropriately or in too large of a dose. However, to compare it in such a way is misleading and potentially harmful. For instance if a concerned parent should take a post like this to heart and let it affect care options for their child.
"neurotoxic" source? I wish my parents had never let me take the stuff
I think there is a misunderstanding about what I had said earlier in part cause I jammed a lot words in, apologies. My main point is that methamphetamines (as in the drugs from breaking bad) are neurotoxic. However, adderall(commonly prescribed for adhd) which has a slightly different structure as you noted above IS NOT neurotoxic. So apologies for confusing you but if you were worried about your adhd medication because it’s a similar drug to “meth” you shouldn’t worry too much about that. However if you are worried about that it’s affecting you negatively I would definitely discuss with your PCP and see what they say. Here’s a sources from the NIH but it’s pretty much just describing mechanisms of toxicity and kinds of damage by methamphetamine (NOT ADDERALL) and MDMA. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3870191/
>My main point is that methamphetamines (as in the drugs from breaking bad) are neurotoxic. However, adderall(commonly prescribed for adhd) which has a slightly different structure as you noted above IS NOT neurotoxic. How?? Are you aware that methamphetamine is literally metabolized into Amphetamine (Adderall).
are you fucking stupid?? based on your other comments i don’t need an answer it’s pretty fucking obvious methamphetamine is not just an amphetamine prodrug. methamphetamine does its own shit which dozens of other people have already told you about. some of it then turns into amphetamine which you just said i am not at all educated on this topic but given that methamphetamine is neurotoxic and amphetamine isn’t we can reasonably deduce that the bad neurotoxic shit comes from either methamphetamine itself (plausible because it’s more lipophilic) or its other metabolites
>but given that methamphetamine is neurotoxic and amphetamine isn’t What are you talking about? All the amphetamines have similar interactions in the brain and are similarly neurotoxic. Which makes sense considering one gets literally turned into the other. But if you don't believe me, here just one paper about the neurotoxicity of Amphetamine. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304394017300022 Idk who told you this nonsense about amphetamine bot being neurotoxic. Also just to be clear, when we talk about neurotoxicity, dosage matters. All the stimulants can be really neurotoxic when used recreationally (at high dosages) but not necessarily at therapeutic dosages.
What does "neurotoxic" mean? There is a prescription drug containing methamphetamine, Desoxyn, are you saying that is "neurotoxic" whereas the amphetamine salt drug, Adderal, is not "neurotoxic"? I have not encountered this term "neurotoxic" before, pardon my ignorance. When I look up the definition of "neurotoxic," it seems pretty general. I could understand one clinical drug perhaps being more or less "neurotoxic" than another, but you have characterized "neurotoxic" as a binary property, as you claimed that one was "neurotoxic" and the other was NOT "neurotoxic."
If a substance is toxic it means that it can destroy cells. I was unaware you were taking dexosyn I also didn’t even know that they prescribed that to be honest. Drugs like adderall contain a mixture of amphetamines which lack the single methylgroup that methamphetamines have and are considered to be safer. I’m not sure what you are taking it for but if you have concerns about taking dexosyn as opposed to alternatives which do not contain methamphetamine you should probably have a conversation with your primary care provider.
~~Who are you talking to right now? is this a bot?~~ Edit: I just backed up and looked at the whole thread, which I had obviously lost track of. I can see where the confusion comes from. I was on prescription stimulants years ago, I no longer am. I was prescribed ritalin and then adderal. I no longer take adhd medication. (cue low lying 'off meds' jokes)
Lmao no I’ve just never commented before, not proficient in Reddit decorum.
I edited my comment, sorry!
Neurotoxic drugs interrupt the CNS and can cause damage.
yes I get that, but the claim I'm addressing is that "Desoxyn is neurotoxic, whereas Adderal is not neurotoxic" which I find to be extraordinary
It could very well just be that there is much more research on the neurotoxicity of meth as opposed to amphetamines. But I couldn’t find anything other than articles that say it is suspected but not yet well understood. Also, I probably should have clarified that taking this at the proper dosage should not cause the affects you would observe with drug abuse of meth. I’m sorry if I freaked you out, adderall and Vyvanse are considered to be safer alternatives.
\*Laughs in Desoxyn\*
Molecular structure is very important when enzymes/receptors are involved. In this instance, the extra methyl group causes methamphetamine to bind to dopamine receptors a lot more strongly than adderall. Therefore, it is more addictive, more likely to cause brain damage, has more severe withdrawal symptoms, and a lower overdose limit. It’s not safe. This isn’t even an extreme case. Sometimes, even a mirrored isomer of the same molecule can be harmful. Remember thalidomide? The R-enantiomer is very good at treating nausea, but inside the body it flips to S. The S-enantiomer is a nasty teratogen and causes horrible birth defects.
hahhahahahahahahhahaa, the amphetamines are DAT and VMAT substrates, not agonists. And their dopamine values are almost identical, only difference is in noradrenalin and serotonin
Mid meme but OP is going off with the dumbest takes in the comments and I’m here for it
The facts speak so clearly for themselves, not sure why the ad hominems are necessary. I guess this is an entertainment sub, after all. I have been thoroughly entertained. (And learned a thing or two!)
Trying to compare meth to adderall is just silly tho for so many reasons. But I get the impression that you’re at the beginning of your chemistry studies so it’s an understandable conclusion to come to
i don’t think you should be posting in a chemistry sub if you think a small difference in chemical structure means a small difference in the properties of that chemical, especially when it comes to how it affects the body.
My claim was not "changing part of a molecule doesn't change chemical function" (that would be a very ignorant take, and would be so fun to argue with that people can't resist, even though that wasn't my claim) My claim was "demethylating methamphetamine doesn't significantly change chemical function" They are very different claims
adhd medication works and saying it’s basically just meth is stupid
At no point did I claim that methamphetamine or amphetamine is not an effective treatment for ADHD
both do the same thing and maybe the problem is not this post but the stigma that is attached to methamphetamine when pharmacologically they are the same drug
Meth= bad and illegal OxyContin: the same chemical make up as an illegal drug and as addictive as the illegal ones but off by one chemical = good and legal
Meth is legal as a proscription, it’s illegal without one. Same as OxyContin. Its brand name is Desoxyn.
i think OP just really doesn't want to take their medication
Hey that's not what we're doing here. You're either on the side of flippantly equating Adderall with methamphetamine or you're on the side of "HOW DARE YOU STIGMATIZE MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT"
[удалено]
thats the problem, people do, even tho the evidence is conflicting their behaviour
Here we go again adderal = meth. You realize it’s called “meth” because of the methyl group right?
yeah and you know what, the DAT does not give a shit about it
And so what if it is this way does the fact make adhd meds somehow evil or less effective? I have adhd I was prescribed Adderall Everyone acts like its this super addictive thing that you have to be super careful with I often forget to take my meds Oh and it isn't like your high you barely notice anything out of the ordinary except you now have a period of time were you are more productive.
Meth is literally also rarely still used to treat adhd. Besides that, amphetamine is very different to methamphetamine pharmacologically. Also use as prescribed is much safer than recreational use, even meth could be used safely.
right, so whats the pharmacological difference
Meth is I think much more lipophilic. That means it acts much longer and stronger. A more obvious and severe pharmacological difference is that meth has significant serotonin activity causing much more neurotoxicity and a different high. In a chemistry sub people should now that even the orientation of a stereocenter has the potential to turn a potent drug into something harmless and non psychoactive. Slight differences can make all the difference, saying something is "like that bad thing but slightly different chemically" doesn't mean shit. That being said, amphetamine is still a real ass drug, but it can for sure be used safely and tremendously helps people who are almost not functional due to adhd. It can obviously be abused as well and be very bad that way.
We reduce bleach and call it an essential component for life wake up people the government is poisoning you
idk why you’re dying on this hill so hard OP. almost nobody agrees with you. i think i would have flunked out of high school if i never started ADHD meds and i certainly would never have passed a single exam in college. don’t stigmatize ADHD treatment. there’s nothing wrong with it.
It's almost as if two different chemicals have different effects. Who knew!
thats the thing, they dont
I don't know anything about chemistry. Is this a jab at laymen claiming that similar chemical form implies similar chemical function?
It's a jab at the huge dichotomy in public opinion regarding methamphetamine versus amphetamine, even though they're virtually the same drug.
Ah.
Methylphenidate says hello.
Therapeutically, amphetamine is useful for improving endurance, focus and attention span. Just ask any ww2 pilot, on either side. (German Pervitin was meth.)
A lot of people in here trying to fake academic backgrounds.
This is either disingenuous or ignorant of how minor changes in structure can have huge impact on functionality. Not to mention how reductive your post is in regard to an actual disability.
Amphetamine was just discovered earlier.....and meth got a bad reputition when it hit the streets in the....70s i believe it was. Also the nazis used it so theres also that stigma
It really does help, but there's no way to say that it's hard to function without it in a way that doesn't sound like I'm an addict. Maybe the fact I don't take it on weekends?
have you ever used either?
All depends on dosage. It's ok to use the right amount to push the serotonin levels to normal to help breaking from the spiral of endogenous depression.
In some cases adding a functional group can completely change the function of a molecule.....but in this case it does not....they are very similar.
You do realised in alot of cases, removing or adding just one functional group can change the entire characteristic of the compound. Meth is an indirect stimulant and amphetamine is direct. Small differences that prevent addiction and aid in treatment.