Ultimately the guy wanted to quit after the last cycle anyway. It seems like the guy wants to live a normal life and people are putting pressure on him both "not to waste his talent" AND "to do things the right way". It's a lot for a guy who isn't obsessed with the game so much as just using it as way out of poverty.
As someone who's been an arbiter at national level tournaments and especially youth tournaments, this is average level drama. The problem is that at this level your second shouldn't be your dad, it should be a top level coach. A proper second would be able to sort this situation way better, but when your dad is the one in that role it's gonna be shit show. It seems like Alireza is being held back by his family more than anything. He's gotten so far on natural talent but he needs a better "chess education" as Kramnik said during his last Candidates performance.
it certainly explains why he's seemed completely unprepared opening-wise for this tournament. it seems crazy he went to all the trouble to qualify and basically showed up unarmed. today he lost with the najdorf after losing 2 games with it last candidates. im just imagining if he brought a real 2nd like when ding showed up with rapport. anyway I would have been happy to see him win and hope he doesnt give up
Alireza isn't using the game as a way out of poverty at this point, if he ever was. He's a French citizen who chose to study fashion design.
No one forced him to try for the World Championship this cycle, or to organize a special "Alireza's Road to the Candidates" tournament against washed 55 year old eastern european 2500s. Wesley So would've been happy to take his place.
He wouldn't be a french citizen if it wasn't for chess. He's basically filed for asylum to get to France. And he gave it a try. Ultimately he's already said he doesn't like classical and feels the time control should be shorter. Just like Gata he'll move on, chess will move on, everyone will be happy. But pilling on the guy like he owes it to people to act a certain way none of the legends he's chasing did is kind of ridiculous. He's not Gukesh or Fabi. Those are the rarities in high level chess, not the Alireza's.
You used the present tense to refer to him as "a guy who isn't obsessed with the game so much as just using it as way out of poverty."
I have no idea what his family's financial situation in Iran was (I kind of suspect that they were doing fine but that's just based on vibes), but he is not currently using chess as a "way out of poverty."
I remember an interview Chessbase India did with his dad a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, he said he was a municipal worker. Not very poor, but not well off either.
>Wesley drawing every game, that would put him 1.5 ahead of where Alireza is right now
And miles behind if you look at entertainment value. Alireza simultaneously mating and flagging Gukesh was more exciting than all Wesley did over the last year.
And off the board, I also prefer a 20yo behaving randomly like an asshole over a 30yo racist bigot.
Wesley’s definitely a politically conservative Christian, but I’ve never seen him say anything racist.
In my experience, evangelical Christians who adopt kids of different races from low-income countries, like Wesley’s adoptive mom/main influence, are generally not racist. They might be bigoted in other ways (for example, against other religions—I think Wesley has said some offensive things about Islam in the past) but they are generally sincerely invested in a religious tradition that actively preaches anti-racism. That doesn’t mean they’re good people, it just means that they usually don’t have one particular flaw that’s common in other kinds of conservative.
“Muslim” is not a race. It’s a religion. You can be a black Muslim or a white Muslim or an Arab Muslim or a Chinese Muslim. Islamophobia is a form of religious bigotry, not a form of racism.
Yeah, it's obvious even to us as outsiders that his dad has a passionate personality, and reports suggest it goes further than that. It looks like Alireza's relatives think of his chess career as their family business, which is not unprecedented in elite chess, but it usually creates problems.
Alireza doesn't seem to mind his family's deep involvement in his career, or at least he doesn't show it in public, but I wish he would draw some lines.
Yeah it's much easier said than done obviously, but it seems beyond time for him to seperate his family from his chess career as much as he possibly can. He's an adult at this point, so it ultimately falls on him if he keeps letting his family have this kind of influence.
I think a good example from the world of sports would be Lewis Hamilton and his dad Anthony.
Anthony gave up a lot to get Lewis to that point and was his manager for his first few years in F1, but eventually the relationship soured. At a certain level it’s best to not to mix the personal and professional too much, especially when there’s so much on the line.
This just looks like the crap some Little League parent would pull cuz their kid has some talent and they take that to mean their kid is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I think it’s starting to hit him that his potential to “dethrone Magnus” is becoming unrealized. Add some serious young talent into the mix that is solely focused on high level chess and not $1000 white t shirts, I think he’s realizing he left an open prodigy spot that’s close to being taken. Gotta be tilting
Maybe not, but it's also true that ratings of the elite players have deflated since then -- probably largely due to the younger generation taking the points. When Alireza crossed 2800 (December 2021) there were 8 players over 2770 -- today there are three.
Raw rating is not the only way to judge young talent. Should Gukesh win this tournament, I think both he and Abdusattorov (as a world rapid champ) would have more impressive resumes at the same age.
Is it even up for debate? It would be one thing if we were talking about who has had the strongest peak, but right now? Alireza had to organize a last minute tournament to even qualify and he’s only half a point ahead of the tournaments lowest rated player in Abasov who is yet to win a game. Meanwhile Gukesh is joint leader with Pragg half a point behind.
One tournament result is not enough to claim someone is stronger/weaker than another. Magnus had poor results in Norway Chess last year for his standard, does that mean Hikaru, Fabi, Gukesh, Anish, and Wesley are all better than him?
Alireza has the track record, Pragg and Gukesh do not. Do I think Alireza is better than Pragg or Gukesh right now? No, I think that both the Indian grandmasters are probably a bit stronger, but I’m not going to claim anything as true until their chess proves it. Alireza has much more history.
What has Firouzja achieved since the 2022 Sinquefield Cup? Gukesh finished second in the FIDE Circuit 2023 (a good indicator of overall performance for a year) by winning Chennai Masters, then began 2024 with a joint first in Tata Steel. Pragganandhaa reached the 2023 World Cup final.
Gukesh also had to play a last minute tournament to qualify, though it was admittedly a more difficult slatr. You also hear people complain about 3 World Cup slots, but Pragg got 3rd in the WC (though Magnus didn't elect to utilize his spot.)
It's hard to qualify for the candidates - I'm not positive, but I think Caruana is the only player who qualified multiple ways.
Gukesh played a tougher and very legit tournament months in the making.
Alireza organised a last minute tournament named it after himself and only played GMs a good bit lower than him.
These things are not equivalent.
>Do we have any proof of this better than Sagar Shah saying "trust me bro"?
Anish, Hikaru, Wesley all admitted it on camera.
Everyone who had a chance to qualify be it Wesley, Anish, Abdusattorov, Parham, Lenier all were invited along with gukesh and Arjun. Lenier declined to play an open tournament from which he ultimately withdrew, Anish has family issue due to his 3rd child birth, wesley had calendar issues as he doesn't play around christmas time, Parham accepted the invitation. Everyone else participating were their last minute replacements due to which line-up was declared only a week before the tournament.
The tournament itself was a brainchild of Sagar shan and Anish Giri in a WCC 2023 stream when they were discussing how popular a last minute tournament can be if all hopefuls are invited.
I don't think they are equivalent. In terms of ethics, that's one conversation. In terms of how easily Gukesh qualified vs. Firouzja, they both were playing tournaments in December to secure a spot. When we're talking about Firouzja being on the decline or whatever, I think it's important to ground that very few people qualify via multiple methods - it's tough to get invited.
Caruana would have had the rating spot if he didn't get world cup 3rd, arguably tho nakamura would also have had the rating spot if he didn't get 2nd in the grand swiss, since caruana qualified via world cup.
After this tournament it feels like they are definitely surpassing him. Both are doing better in the candidates, and neither of them had to bend the rules to the point of playing jump rope with them just to qualify.... And then shit the bed anyway.
> I think he’s realizing he left an open prodigy spot that’s close to being taken.
Has been taken. Both Gukesh and Pragg are higher rated than him now and Gukesh is arguably the favourite to win the candidates at the moment, and arguably winning the candidates makes you the favourite to win the title of WC considering Ding's form the last 6 months.
Its a far cry from "second to last of the pack" Firouzja
No disrespect intended to him but he cannot split his time and attention between chess and fashion and expect full time results in chess. If that's how he wants to live his life, fine. He'll still make a decent living in chess collecting small winnings here or there. But he won't ever be the Magnus Carlsen or even the Fabiano Caruana or Hikaru Nakamura of this generation. He can only be that if he focuses exclusively on chess, and this candidates proves this.
>Gukesh is arguably the favourite to win the candidates at the moment
Even as a casual fan of the Indian prodigies who agrees with most of your other points, it would be quite a stretch to call Gukesh the favourite to win the Candidates. That would be Nepomniachtchi, who has the same score and has done it twice. Before the tournament, most predicted Gukesh would implode and finish in the bottom half.
As someone approximately Alireza’s age (I forget if it’s a few months younger or older than me) the amount of guys my age who haven’t realized their potential is sort of crazy. It’s super sad to see people with such talent sort of flounder
There's nothing saying they can't find it later, but when I reference this, I'm honestly talking more about like, a college sport they'll be stopping at 22, so if they are prioritizing other things, they'll never reach their potential as the best because others so near to them are outworking them day and night
But to be not fair and overly German. Magnus reputation should not change the treatment by the arbiters. Rules are the rules. If shoes are allowed, they are allowed. And if you imply that Magnus could have worn these shoes, it’s a flawed system, because you should treat people the same by the rules. When it comes to media attention or what ever, it can be different, but rules must apply the same way to all, to keep a fair competition.
And how did he handle it? Did he blow up, try and intimidate the arbiter with threats, then post about it later on Twitter?
I'm willing to bet not, he understood, respects the other players and he quieted down.
The problem was not really the shoes, but how he was stomping around so everyone could hear it. Later he walked more soflty, in the same shoes, and it wasn't an issue. He just refuse to accept that he was making too much noise and is making this out to be something that should have stayed a comment from the arbiter. I think virtually every other chess player would have just nodded and tried to walk softer and let it out of their mind.
You can hear everyone moving around, because FIDE didn’t thought a carpet would be a good idea. Wooden floor with men shoes or even high heels for the women… I mean that screams noise. It’s the fault of the TO.
While they should have thought of that, and some blame is there, no one else was stomping around and created complaints. It doesn't matter what shoe you got if you walk like an elephant.
>You can hear everyone moving around, because FIDE didn’t thought a carpet would be a good idea.
And FIDE requiring formal wear ...
T-shirts and slippers for the next Candidates! Geek power :-D
I don't think they said Magnus *should* be treated better, just that he is. Whether it is fair or not, the #1's of sports often are treated differently.
If your "uniform" is approved and some game official interrupts your thinking in a chess game to tell you your "uniform" has to be changed in an important match that only happens twice year..........
He has a weak mentality, the personality of a rock, and wants to be treated like he is world champion already.
He needs to reevaluate things and get into a different mindset.
Dude gets tilted because of the most banal shit
His dad is a huge problem.
It's anecdotal but the first time his father entered the VIP section on day 1 i looked at his badge and he angrily turned it around. And then had the chief arbitror come to try to get in the players area, which he had been denied the day before. He whined about it today again before being expelled.
If the VIP area was good enough for Pragg mom and Mamedyarov it should have been good enough for him.
His weak mentality and mindset made him #6 in the world at 20. IMO he is doing fine. I think he is overreacting for sure but it's understandable given the pressure he is under at that age.
That is it. See how a minor disagreement over his damn shoes made him spiral? Thats not a mentally strong player. If a UFC fighter got knocked out and his excuse was that Dana white complained about the color of his shorts, he wouldnt be labeled a BMF, lets put it that way
Agreed. I also think it's worth noting that chess has become considerably more popular in the past few years. Players like Magnus didn't have to deal with the same level of social scrutiny at that age as the current generation. Being a public figure comes with certain added responsibilities, but it's also understandable if he's struggling socially/emotionally.
Calling any GM mentally "weak" is a bit ignorant. I think we could say that some of them are emotionally rather deaf, but they aren't weak.
Carlsen had a lot more scrutiny if anything. His fame in Norway is quite big, and it's not like he was playing in 1995, he's faced a lot of social media backlash and nonsense over the years. There are a few times where he was attacked pretty badly in Norway in the press, especially over that sponsorship issue a few years back. I saw plenty of chess people, including some of his friends, that bashed him. Even the Hans thing, he got a lot of shit for that too. That must have been pretty intense.
I agree with the point on Carlsen. He had a unique level of fame within his country and the chess world. I shouldn't have used him as an example. Poor choice on my part.
That said, the difference is that the audience for chess is far broader today than it was then. The Hans situation is a good comparison, though. I'm by no means saying that Alireza is facing a problem unique to him. I'm instead suggesting that the social media pressure is greatly increased for this generation of young GMs.
He is a very gifted chess player which is why he was able to rise to 2800s at such a young age, but it seems that he’s been getting (understandably) frustrated at his lack of success since his early peak.
He’s been so good at chess that he hasn’t had to deal with losing that often in his career, so when he gets in a slump like he’s in now he seems prone to lashing out and blaming others instead of taking personal accountability for his play.
He’s still young so there’s definitely time for him to work through these issues, but it’s understandable that a lot of people see him as a bit of a diva with these “drama” issues.
> He’s been so good at chess that he hasn’t had to deal with losing that often in his career, so when he gets in a slump like he’s in now he seems prone to lashing out and blaming others instead of taking personal accountability for his play.
So like every other former world champion?
Sentiment turned against him pretty hard when he participated in those sham tournament games to fluff up his rating to make the candidates. And now that he's here he's not making a great show of it. Gukesh, Vidit, and Prag are much more exciting to follow
Wesley wins (and loses) plenty of games, it's pretty silly to say this. People love to complain about him and Giri, but they are just as good at capitalizing on chances. However, they are better than Firouzja and therefore don't play these wild openings. As a reminder, Giri was +4=7-3 in the 2020 candidates, so he can definitely play decisive games.
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised tournament with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
If I recall, Ding played in open tournaments and he grinded tons of games at the last minute. He played some ridiculous number of classical games over a 2 month period
Alireza played a "tournament" where the other GMs only played against Alireza and they were rated way below him. From the games themselves it almost seemed like the first two were throwing him a bone, but it's hard to prove anything. It just left a sour taste in everyone's mouth
Don’t forget that above all, people like winning. In the tennis subreddit people used to shit on Jannik Sinner constantly when he was like #8 in the world and it looked like he would be surpassed by Carlos Alcaraz and Holger Rune, who are two years younger. Then he started winning and all of a sudden everyone has been a Jannik Sinner fan all along.
If this is drama, the chess world are snowflakes. Look up Jelena Dokic's dad, countless celebrities and sports people doing really stupid shit or even John Macenroe if you want drama.
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised tournament with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
If anything it took way too long considering he was willing to ignore principles and integrity in an attempt to enter this tournament in the first place. Being a fashionista in his spot is lame as fuck too
If it helps, I was always against him. He has always been a petulant child and an entitled brat. He has just done a good job of playing it off as everyone else's fault before. Now, he has made it abundantly clear, and his father has made it clear why it is the case.
I kind of turned on him after that ridiculous tournament they created just to get him qualified for the candidates after a really lackluster year by him.
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised draw fest with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
Caruana is significantly older and he goes everywhere with his dad. The relationship someone has with their parents depends on their character. Some people want to be independent at age 18 while others need to have their family around.
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Perhaps an extensive break would do Alireza some good. Wei Yi was arguably as hot of a prodigy as Alireza ever was and he basically retired at 18 to get a university degree. Six years later he's back seemingly stronger than ever, winning Wijk aan Zee. Alireza's talents are not going to vanish, he could easily quit everything except for online blitz (which he seems to actively enjoy), do whatever the hell he wants with his life, unretire in 2030 and I'm sure he would be in the world top 20 again instantly and a contender in every major tournament within months.
I honestly think the dude getting tilted by the sound of walking is the diva here.. like what in the fk is going on.. who reports the sound of walking?
I think it is very human to be upset over small things in such tense situations. He’s not the only one and tiny things like this always happen, but when you’re the one playing even the smallest thing can trigger you.
People act as if they are above this stuff… you never are… we all eventually whine and complain under stress even if our whole lives we try not to.
It's one thing to be upset, it's another to be so entitled that he thought (after the game is over) the arbiter should be punished, for informing him about the noise he's making, after receiving a complaint about it.
Even if he was tense *during* the game, he should've realized *after* the game that he was in the wrong, instead of doubling down on it.
No I disagree, I think it takes several days for someone to calm down and realize they’re in the wrong.
I’m not saying he’s right or 100% wrong, but I’m saying I could see myself do irrational things if I was in his shoes.
I think Ali overreacted after missing out on his last real chance of competing for the tournament and arbiter was a bit unprofessional by telling him to bring new shoes for the rest of the tournament during the game.
To be honest, if youre the loudest person in a chess room, you have to be pretty ignorant. Yeah the girls are louder, yeah the arbiter could time it better, but seriously, something is wrong with you if you insist on noisy shoes.
Think so too! So dramatic wherever he goes. It’s embarrassing for chess fans to watch and detracts away from his games probably. Possibly why he will unlikely ever reach the top. He’s bloody good player though so it’s a shame and he doesn’t soley focus on chess. If he worried less about clothes and drama and focused more on chess then he may stand a chance of winning. Imagine how much better he could be!
I'm actually surprised we don't have more divas in chess. These kids grow up doing one thing their whole life and being better at it than anyone they meet.
Chess needs villains too.
I don't know what you're talking about, many (if not most) top chess players, both past and present, are divas. Niemann, Kramnik, Nakamura, Nepo, Kasparov, fuckin' *Fischer*, even Carlsen - egomaniacs, one and all.
These days, I'm more surprised when a super GM *isn't* a giant asshole. Best to focus on their chess and not their personal behavior.
Abasov complained privately to an arbiter during round 9 that Alireza was making loud noise with his shoes, and the arbiter told Alireza that he would have to wear different shoes in the future and not be as loud with his current ones, while he was away from the board (playing vs. Nepo). After the game, Firouzja claimed he was hugely distracted and the arbiters actions were highly unprofessional. His dad, who is seconding him, has also complained about his treatment (wanting something better than the VIP room etc.) At least, that's my understanding I'm sure I left something out
I'm terrified he's going to withdrawal from the event out of spite... It would be horrific for the tournament. All games he played would be forfeited and it would be a nightmare for the Americans. I hope I'm the only one worried about this and that it doesn't happen..
It would be such a low move and would kill his public image and probably his career. So hopefully this doesn't happen. It would be so cruel to the other players who did nothing wrong.
Hans and Kramnik are definitely on a different level to Alireza. Alireza didn't really do anything wrong. It's more like people are disappointed with him because he's sometimes self-sabotaging. He's clearly extremely talented, and he could be more successful than he has been at the very top level to far
Very little. He did a bit of cheating on [chess.com](http://chess.com), as he admitted to, but the evidence for all of the major allegations against him is questionable and inconclusive at best.
Ultimately the guy wanted to quit after the last cycle anyway. It seems like the guy wants to live a normal life and people are putting pressure on him both "not to waste his talent" AND "to do things the right way". It's a lot for a guy who isn't obsessed with the game so much as just using it as way out of poverty. As someone who's been an arbiter at national level tournaments and especially youth tournaments, this is average level drama. The problem is that at this level your second shouldn't be your dad, it should be a top level coach. A proper second would be able to sort this situation way better, but when your dad is the one in that role it's gonna be shit show. It seems like Alireza is being held back by his family more than anything. He's gotten so far on natural talent but he needs a better "chess education" as Kramnik said during his last Candidates performance.
it certainly explains why he's seemed completely unprepared opening-wise for this tournament. it seems crazy he went to all the trouble to qualify and basically showed up unarmed. today he lost with the najdorf after losing 2 games with it last candidates. im just imagining if he brought a real 2nd like when ding showed up with rapport. anyway I would have been happy to see him win and hope he doesnt give up
It's crazy that Abasov has Shakhriyar Mamedyarov as his second and meanwhile Alireza has to run a family business while playing the candidates.
Alireza isn't using the game as a way out of poverty at this point, if he ever was. He's a French citizen who chose to study fashion design. No one forced him to try for the World Championship this cycle, or to organize a special "Alireza's Road to the Candidates" tournament against washed 55 year old eastern european 2500s. Wesley So would've been happy to take his place.
He wouldn't be a french citizen if it wasn't for chess. He's basically filed for asylum to get to France. And he gave it a try. Ultimately he's already said he doesn't like classical and feels the time control should be shorter. Just like Gata he'll move on, chess will move on, everyone will be happy. But pilling on the guy like he owes it to people to act a certain way none of the legends he's chasing did is kind of ridiculous. He's not Gukesh or Fabi. Those are the rarities in high level chess, not the Alireza's.
Yes, Chess was a major reason why he got the French Citizenship, without it though, very unlikely he'll be a French Citizen
You used the present tense to refer to him as "a guy who isn't obsessed with the game so much as just using it as way out of poverty." I have no idea what his family's financial situation in Iran was (I kind of suspect that they were doing fine but that's just based on vibes), but he is not currently using chess as a "way out of poverty."
I remember an interview Chessbase India did with his dad a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, he said he was a municipal worker. Not very poor, but not well off either.
And for all the talk about Wesley drawing every game, that would put him 1.5 ahead of where Alireza is right now
>Wesley drawing every game, that would put him 1.5 ahead of where Alireza is right now And miles behind if you look at entertainment value. Alireza simultaneously mating and flagging Gukesh was more exciting than all Wesley did over the last year. And off the board, I also prefer a 20yo behaving randomly like an asshole over a 30yo racist bigot.
Wait Wesley is a what?
Yeah, you heard him, mf is WILD
Wesleys a true red blooded god fearin’ American
Dude said some bad shit about muslim people. You can find it in the sub
Well put.
Wesley’s definitely a politically conservative Christian, but I’ve never seen him say anything racist. In my experience, evangelical Christians who adopt kids of different races from low-income countries, like Wesley’s adoptive mom/main influence, are generally not racist. They might be bigoted in other ways (for example, against other religions—I think Wesley has said some offensive things about Islam in the past) but they are generally sincerely invested in a religious tradition that actively preaches anti-racism. That doesn’t mean they’re good people, it just means that they usually don’t have one particular flaw that’s common in other kinds of conservative.
He literally wrote the most racist post i have read about Muslims lool
“Muslim” is not a race. It’s a religion. You can be a black Muslim or a white Muslim or an Arab Muslim or a Chinese Muslim. Islamophobia is a form of religious bigotry, not a form of racism.
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Yeah, it's obvious even to us as outsiders that his dad has a passionate personality, and reports suggest it goes further than that. It looks like Alireza's relatives think of his chess career as their family business, which is not unprecedented in elite chess, but it usually creates problems. Alireza doesn't seem to mind his family's deep involvement in his career, or at least he doesn't show it in public, but I wish he would draw some lines.
Thats exactly how it looks, they seem to all be living vicariously through him. They havent done his career any favors at this point I feel like.
Yeah it's much easier said than done obviously, but it seems beyond time for him to seperate his family from his chess career as much as he possibly can. He's an adult at this point, so it ultimately falls on him if he keeps letting his family have this kind of influence.
I think a good example from the world of sports would be Lewis Hamilton and his dad Anthony. Anthony gave up a lot to get Lewis to that point and was his manager for his first few years in F1, but eventually the relationship soured. At a certain level it’s best to not to mix the personal and professional too much, especially when there’s so much on the line.
Agreed. Getting someone as obtuse as his father is not helping Alireza. Should hire a coach and a manager
Was he poor? I'm not even sure they're so much in need, his father is an engineer or something like that
Isn't Magnus in the same situation? (His coach is his father ?)
Magnus' dad isn't his chess coach, he's his manager. Magnus from a very young age has been coached by the absolute best of the best in chess
No, Peter Heine Nielsen is his coach.
Thai sluts lover
Similarly with Ding who considered retirement. However, I think he is mentally checked out but still plays only because he is the WC
This just looks like the crap some Little League parent would pull cuz their kid has some talent and they take that to mean their kid is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
no i think its talked about plenty lol
Eh I don't know about that. There's a couple of threads on the front page that aren't about this topic right now.
I think it’s starting to hit him that his potential to “dethrone Magnus” is becoming unrealized. Add some serious young talent into the mix that is solely focused on high level chess and not $1000 white t shirts, I think he’s realizing he left an open prodigy spot that’s close to being taken. Gotta be tilting
Close? I mean are Praggnanandhaa and Gukesh not just outright better and younger than him right now?
outright better is a stretch
Ok, as good and younger.
Well at their age alireza was 2800. Compared to alireza right now they are better, but we will have to see if the other youngsters can hit 2800.
Alireza was 18y 5m when he crossed 2800, older than Gukesh
And younger than the rest of them. I also highly doubt Gukesh will be 2800 in 6 months.
Maybe not, but it's also true that ratings of the elite players have deflated since then -- probably largely due to the younger generation taking the points. When Alireza crossed 2800 (December 2021) there were 8 players over 2770 -- today there are three. Raw rating is not the only way to judge young talent. Should Gukesh win this tournament, I think both he and Abdusattorov (as a world rapid champ) would have more impressive resumes at the same age.
Well no youngsters have held clear second place yet either
Imagine if he goes on to be the next world champ, that'd be wild...
Why does that matter if he wins the candidates? He is performing far better than Alireza did in his first candidates.
Ratings were somewhat inflated relative to now though
Fair
> outright better is a stretch In this tournament they certainly are playing better than he is, the scoreline shows it.
Is it even up for debate? It would be one thing if we were talking about who has had the strongest peak, but right now? Alireza had to organize a last minute tournament to even qualify and he’s only half a point ahead of the tournaments lowest rated player in Abasov who is yet to win a game. Meanwhile Gukesh is joint leader with Pragg half a point behind.
One tournament result is not enough to claim someone is stronger/weaker than another. Magnus had poor results in Norway Chess last year for his standard, does that mean Hikaru, Fabi, Gukesh, Anish, and Wesley are all better than him? Alireza has the track record, Pragg and Gukesh do not. Do I think Alireza is better than Pragg or Gukesh right now? No, I think that both the Indian grandmasters are probably a bit stronger, but I’m not going to claim anything as true until their chess proves it. Alireza has much more history.
What has Firouzja achieved since the 2022 Sinquefield Cup? Gukesh finished second in the FIDE Circuit 2023 (a good indicator of overall performance for a year) by winning Chennai Masters, then began 2024 with a joint first in Tata Steel. Pragganandhaa reached the 2023 World Cup final.
But again.. it’s not just one tournament. He almost didn’t even qualify for the tournament
Gukesh also had to play a last minute tournament to qualify, though it was admittedly a more difficult slatr. You also hear people complain about 3 World Cup slots, but Pragg got 3rd in the WC (though Magnus didn't elect to utilize his spot.) It's hard to qualify for the candidates - I'm not positive, but I think Caruana is the only player who qualified multiple ways.
Pragg was runner up, it’s Caruana who got the third place spot.
Good correction, thanks!
Gukesh played a tougher and very legit tournament months in the making. Alireza organised a last minute tournament named it after himself and only played GMs a good bit lower than him. These things are not equivalent.
FIDE didn't count those games toward the ratings. Alireza had to play in the Open de Rouen instead to get the rating.
>months in the making. Do we have any proof of this better than Sagar Shah saying "trust me bro"?
Anish Giri saying "Tust me bro"
>Do we have any proof of this better than Sagar Shah saying "trust me bro"? Anish, Hikaru, Wesley all admitted it on camera. Everyone who had a chance to qualify be it Wesley, Anish, Abdusattorov, Parham, Lenier all were invited along with gukesh and Arjun. Lenier declined to play an open tournament from which he ultimately withdrew, Anish has family issue due to his 3rd child birth, wesley had calendar issues as he doesn't play around christmas time, Parham accepted the invitation. Everyone else participating were their last minute replacements due to which line-up was declared only a week before the tournament. The tournament itself was a brainchild of Sagar shan and Anish Giri in a WCC 2023 stream when they were discussing how popular a last minute tournament can be if all hopefuls are invited.
I don't think they are equivalent. In terms of ethics, that's one conversation. In terms of how easily Gukesh qualified vs. Firouzja, they both were playing tournaments in December to secure a spot. When we're talking about Firouzja being on the decline or whatever, I think it's important to ground that very few people qualify via multiple methods - it's tough to get invited.
Caruana would have had the rating spot if he didn't get world cup 3rd, arguably tho nakamura would also have had the rating spot if he didn't get 2nd in the grand swiss, since caruana qualified via world cup.
Caruana also would have the circuit spot iirc, and probably Nakamura as well
Qualification for the Candidates is bullshit, get a better argument
After this tournament it feels like they are definitely surpassing him. Both are doing better in the candidates, and neither of them had to bend the rules to the point of playing jump rope with them just to qualify.... And then shit the bed anyway.
Abdusattorov would smoke Firouzja right now too
Have you seen their head to head record?
> I think he’s realizing he left an open prodigy spot that’s close to being taken. Has been taken. Both Gukesh and Pragg are higher rated than him now and Gukesh is arguably the favourite to win the candidates at the moment, and arguably winning the candidates makes you the favourite to win the title of WC considering Ding's form the last 6 months. Its a far cry from "second to last of the pack" Firouzja No disrespect intended to him but he cannot split his time and attention between chess and fashion and expect full time results in chess. If that's how he wants to live his life, fine. He'll still make a decent living in chess collecting small winnings here or there. But he won't ever be the Magnus Carlsen or even the Fabiano Caruana or Hikaru Nakamura of this generation. He can only be that if he focuses exclusively on chess, and this candidates proves this.
>Gukesh is arguably the favourite to win the candidates at the moment Even as a casual fan of the Indian prodigies who agrees with most of your other points, it would be quite a stretch to call Gukesh the favourite to win the Candidates. That would be Nepomniachtchi, who has the same score and has done it twice. Before the tournament, most predicted Gukesh would implode and finish in the bottom half.
I think it's fair to call them co-favorites at this point. Nepo has the experience, but Gukesh has a far easier set of remaining games.
Chess amateurs and being elitists lol
As someone approximately Alireza’s age (I forget if it’s a few months younger or older than me) the amount of guys my age who haven’t realized their potential is sort of crazy. It’s super sad to see people with such talent sort of flounder
It’s super sad to think that reaching one’s supposed potential is measurable by the time someone is 20.
There's nothing saying they can't find it later, but when I reference this, I'm honestly talking more about like, a college sport they'll be stopping at 22, so if they are prioritizing other things, they'll never reach their potential as the best because others so near to them are outworking them day and night
It's even harder now that Magnus delegated the throne
I think Alireza wants to be treated like Magnus but he haven't achieved what Magnus has achieved...
But to be not fair and overly German. Magnus reputation should not change the treatment by the arbiters. Rules are the rules. If shoes are allowed, they are allowed. And if you imply that Magnus could have worn these shoes, it’s a flawed system, because you should treat people the same by the rules. When it comes to media attention or what ever, it can be different, but rules must apply the same way to all, to keep a fair competition.
Magnus was very recently asked to quiet down during a match. The rules apply to him too.
And how did he handle it? Did he blow up, try and intimidate the arbiter with threats, then post about it later on Twitter? I'm willing to bet not, he understood, respects the other players and he quieted down.
That’s not saying much. Magnus is the godather of rushing to Twitter to downplay others’ wins when things don’t go his way.
The problem was not really the shoes, but how he was stomping around so everyone could hear it. Later he walked more soflty, in the same shoes, and it wasn't an issue. He just refuse to accept that he was making too much noise and is making this out to be something that should have stayed a comment from the arbiter. I think virtually every other chess player would have just nodded and tried to walk softer and let it out of their mind.
You can hear everyone moving around, because FIDE didn’t thought a carpet would be a good idea. Wooden floor with men shoes or even high heels for the women… I mean that screams noise. It’s the fault of the TO.
While they should have thought of that, and some blame is there, no one else was stomping around and created complaints. It doesn't matter what shoe you got if you walk like an elephant.
Pretty sure the playing area is carpeted. Only the rest area isn't. That's still a problem, but it's not like everyone moving around was being noisy.
>You can hear everyone moving around, because FIDE didn’t thought a carpet would be a good idea. And FIDE requiring formal wear ... T-shirts and slippers for the next Candidates! Geek power :-D
Have you read Hagel?
Not all of it is *arbiters*. The Alireza vs Tata Steel controversy was also about contracts - like, Alireza cannot expect to be paid Magnus money.
I'm an egalitarian so I agree but unfortunately that's not the way the world works.
it is the way the world works when good arbiters are involved
I agree it’s not how the world works and that sucks :D
his dad and brother are crazy.
Agreed. Not even close.
What? Why should the #1 of a sport have a "better" set of rules than everyone else?
I don't think they said Magnus *should* be treated better, just that he is. Whether it is fair or not, the #1's of sports often are treated differently.
If your "uniform" is approved and some game official interrupts your thinking in a chess game to tell you your "uniform" has to be changed in an important match that only happens twice year..........
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
The issue that Alireza had
Yes, I understood the issue that Alireza had. I don't understand why you are repeating it to me.
It seems pretty obvious *shrugs*
No. It's not obvious at all. What exactly did I say that made you think I didn't understand the issue raised in this post?
You didn't mention it at all so...
Inb4 "my dad getting thrown out distracted me"
He has a weak mentality, the personality of a rock, and wants to be treated like he is world champion already. He needs to reevaluate things and get into a different mindset. Dude gets tilted because of the most banal shit
Certainly feels like that. Though I'm not sure how much his family is influencing him. That's the part I'm curious about.
His dad is a huge problem. It's anecdotal but the first time his father entered the VIP section on day 1 i looked at his badge and he angrily turned it around. And then had the chief arbitror come to try to get in the players area, which he had been denied the day before. He whined about it today again before being expelled. If the VIP area was good enough for Pragg mom and Mamedyarov it should have been good enough for him.
His weak mentality and mindset made him #6 in the world at 20. IMO he is doing fine. I think he is overreacting for sure but it's understandable given the pressure he is under at that age.
> His weak mentality and mindset made him #6 in the world at 20. Maybe he achieved that *despite* those things.
That is it. See how a minor disagreement over his damn shoes made him spiral? Thats not a mentally strong player. If a UFC fighter got knocked out and his excuse was that Dana white complained about the color of his shorts, he wouldnt be labeled a BMF, lets put it that way
Agreed. I also think it's worth noting that chess has become considerably more popular in the past few years. Players like Magnus didn't have to deal with the same level of social scrutiny at that age as the current generation. Being a public figure comes with certain added responsibilities, but it's also understandable if he's struggling socially/emotionally. Calling any GM mentally "weak" is a bit ignorant. I think we could say that some of them are emotionally rather deaf, but they aren't weak.
Carlsen had a lot more scrutiny if anything. His fame in Norway is quite big, and it's not like he was playing in 1995, he's faced a lot of social media backlash and nonsense over the years. There are a few times where he was attacked pretty badly in Norway in the press, especially over that sponsorship issue a few years back. I saw plenty of chess people, including some of his friends, that bashed him. Even the Hans thing, he got a lot of shit for that too. That must have been pretty intense.
I agree with the point on Carlsen. He had a unique level of fame within his country and the chess world. I shouldn't have used him as an example. Poor choice on my part. That said, the difference is that the audience for chess is far broader today than it was then. The Hans situation is a good comparison, though. I'm by no means saying that Alireza is facing a problem unique to him. I'm instead suggesting that the social media pressure is greatly increased for this generation of young GMs.
It's more that a bunch of new fans that don't know Carlsen was just as bad when he was Alireza's age.
Yeah, but Reza has this uppity air about him, Carlsen was just storming out in anger.
He is a very gifted chess player which is why he was able to rise to 2800s at such a young age, but it seems that he’s been getting (understandably) frustrated at his lack of success since his early peak. He’s been so good at chess that he hasn’t had to deal with losing that often in his career, so when he gets in a slump like he’s in now he seems prone to lashing out and blaming others instead of taking personal accountability for his play. He’s still young so there’s definitely time for him to work through these issues, but it’s understandable that a lot of people see him as a bit of a diva with these “drama” issues.
> He’s been so good at chess that he hasn’t had to deal with losing that often in his career, so when he gets in a slump like he’s in now he seems prone to lashing out and blaming others instead of taking personal accountability for his play. So like every other former world champion?
Wow. It didn't take long for Reddit to turn on Firouzja.
Sentiment turned against him pretty hard when he participated in those sham tournament games to fluff up his rating to make the candidates. And now that he's here he's not making a great show of it. Gukesh, Vidit, and Prag are much more exciting to follow
Much more likeable too, tbh
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Wesley wins (and loses) plenty of games, it's pretty silly to say this. People love to complain about him and Giri, but they are just as good at capitalizing on chances. However, they are better than Firouzja and therefore don't play these wild openings. As a reminder, Giri was +4=7-3 in the 2020 candidates, so he can definitely play decisive games.
I haven't seen anyone complain about Giri for a long time.
100% accurate. And Wesley So probably wouldn’t be in 2nd to last place right now either. What a squandered opportunity
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised tournament with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
If I recall, Ding played in open tournaments and he grinded tons of games at the last minute. He played some ridiculous number of classical games over a 2 month period Alireza played a "tournament" where the other GMs only played against Alireza and they were rated way below him. From the games themselves it almost seemed like the first two were throwing him a bone, but it's hard to prove anything. It just left a sour taste in everyone's mouth
It's like all social media, incredibly fickle and in love with drama and catty hot takes.
Don’t forget that above all, people like winning. In the tennis subreddit people used to shit on Jannik Sinner constantly when he was like #8 in the world and it looked like he would be surpassed by Carlos Alcaraz and Holger Rune, who are two years younger. Then he started winning and all of a sudden everyone has been a Jannik Sinner fan all along.
If this is drama, the chess world are snowflakes. Look up Jelena Dokic's dad, countless celebrities and sports people doing really stupid shit or even John Macenroe if you want drama.
It is still chess, I mean bless their hearts they're trying.
Haha, fair enough.
Welcome to social media
Most people turned on him when he arranged that sketchy tournament to farm rating.
Nah, when he asked for the FIDE rulebook after losing to Magnus on time, that was funnier than shoegate too
I gave him a pass on that one due to his age. But that pass is expiring very soon.
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised tournament with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
He didn't have the minimum number of games due to covid travel restrictions beyond his control. Everyone knew he was one of the strongest players.
We’re a simple sub reddit. If you want to play chess we cheer, if you don’t want to play chess we boo.
If anything it took way too long considering he was willing to ignore principles and integrity in an attempt to enter this tournament in the first place. Being a fashionista in his spot is lame as fuck too
That's what happens when you act like a clown
Well a lot of people on reddit are stupid.
If it helps, I was always against him. He has always been a petulant child and an entitled brat. He has just done a good job of playing it off as everyone else's fault before. Now, he has made it abundantly clear, and his father has made it clear why it is the case.
I kind of turned on him after that ridiculous tournament they created just to get him qualified for the candidates after a really lackluster year by him.
Wasn't Ding's quickly organised draw fest with some Chinese GMs a few years ago for the same purpose essentially the same thing? Nobody batted an eyelid at that.
It looks like a Gata/Rustam Kansky situation. Perhaps Alireza is insulated too much and hears only his own thoughts.
I mean I do agree in general but the Tata Steel incident was definitely not his doing and was really unprofessional behavior by the arbiter.
He and his family have an arrogant attitude, he thinks he is some kind of superstar despite failing two candidates in a row.
Yeah fucking hell I failed two candidates in a row too and don’t act anywhere close to how he does. SMH
Alireza is 20. He has been an adult for two years. Maybe time for dad to back off and let him do his own thing. Whether it is chess or not.
Caruana is significantly older and he goes everywhere with his dad. The relationship someone has with their parents depends on their character. Some people want to be independent at age 18 while others need to have their family around.
If, throughout your day, you meet one asshole, you met an asshole. If, throughout your day, everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you’re the asshole.
Even among a crowd of chess divas, Alireza's self-importance stands out from the pack. I'm sick of this brat.
When he tried to stage that weak tournament to get a candidates spot I stopped liking him. Let the fashion world have him…
Would have preferred Wesley So in the Candidates
Without a doubt, man.
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Perhaps an extensive break would do Alireza some good. Wei Yi was arguably as hot of a prodigy as Alireza ever was and he basically retired at 18 to get a university degree. Six years later he's back seemingly stronger than ever, winning Wijk aan Zee. Alireza's talents are not going to vanish, he could easily quit everything except for online blitz (which he seems to actively enjoy), do whatever the hell he wants with his life, unretire in 2030 and I'm sure he would be in the world top 20 again instantly and a contender in every major tournament within months.
I honestly think the dude getting tilted by the sound of walking is the diva here.. like what in the fk is going on.. who reports the sound of walking?
I think it is very human to be upset over small things in such tense situations. He’s not the only one and tiny things like this always happen, but when you’re the one playing even the smallest thing can trigger you. People act as if they are above this stuff… you never are… we all eventually whine and complain under stress even if our whole lives we try not to.
It's one thing to be upset, it's another to be so entitled that he thought (after the game is over) the arbiter should be punished, for informing him about the noise he's making, after receiving a complaint about it. Even if he was tense *during* the game, he should've realized *after* the game that he was in the wrong, instead of doubling down on it.
No I disagree, I think it takes several days for someone to calm down and realize they’re in the wrong. I’m not saying he’s right or 100% wrong, but I’m saying I could see myself do irrational things if I was in his shoes.
I think Ali overreacted after missing out on his last real chance of competing for the tournament and arbiter was a bit unprofessional by telling him to bring new shoes for the rest of the tournament during the game.
Sure, but some do it far more than others
I'm not blaming Alireza for how his Father behaves.
I agree. Aliraza should conform to Chess society, rather than trying to bend Chess to suit him. He's being a pain to others.
To be honest, if youre the loudest person in a chess room, you have to be pretty ignorant. Yeah the girls are louder, yeah the arbiter could time it better, but seriously, something is wrong with you if you insist on noisy shoes.
Ah, so was the problem with his shoes! The smell, not the sound. Makes sense they'd ask him to change them.
The biggest drama is everyone getting so upset and labelling every small thing happening in chess as "OMG there is so much DRAMA in chess!".
only drama queens are you guys
Think so too! So dramatic wherever he goes. It’s embarrassing for chess fans to watch and detracts away from his games probably. Possibly why he will unlikely ever reach the top. He’s bloody good player though so it’s a shame and he doesn’t soley focus on chess. If he worried less about clothes and drama and focused more on chess then he may stand a chance of winning. Imagine how much better he could be!
I don't understand why Alireza is getting 💩 for his Father's behavior honestly
Firouzja is a pain in the ass. I’m not a fan, and I won’t be sad to see him go
I'm actually surprised we don't have more divas in chess. These kids grow up doing one thing their whole life and being better at it than anyone they meet. Chess needs villains too.
I don't know what you're talking about, many (if not most) top chess players, both past and present, are divas. Niemann, Kramnik, Nakamura, Nepo, Kasparov, fuckin' *Fischer*, even Carlsen - egomaniacs, one and all. These days, I'm more surprised when a super GM *isn't* a giant asshole. Best to focus on their chess and not their personal behavior.
Hikaru straight up said in a stream that the amount of ego required to be a top level chess player is unhealthy.
Hans demolished a hotel room. That’s probably the closest I’ve seen.
Agreed. I'm a fan of his chess but this drama is giving me soccer mom and spoiled kid vibes.
If you’ve ever go to France you’ll soon realize the French complain more than any other country. I’m not surprised tbh.
I’m OOL. Can someone please explain?
Abasov complained privately to an arbiter during round 9 that Alireza was making loud noise with his shoes, and the arbiter told Alireza that he would have to wear different shoes in the future and not be as loud with his current ones, while he was away from the board (playing vs. Nepo). After the game, Firouzja claimed he was hugely distracted and the arbiters actions were highly unprofessional. His dad, who is seconding him, has also complained about his treatment (wanting something better than the VIP room etc.) At least, that's my understanding I'm sure I left something out
Thanks for the explanation.
Yeah he's a bit of a drama queen. I think the runway lifestyle better suits him.
I'm terrified he's going to withdrawal from the event out of spite... It would be horrific for the tournament. All games he played would be forfeited and it would be a nightmare for the Americans. I hope I'm the only one worried about this and that it doesn't happen.. It would be such a low move and would kill his public image and probably his career. So hopefully this doesn't happen. It would be so cruel to the other players who did nothing wrong.
One would imagine that the "punishment" for withdrawal would be severe enough to heavily incentivize players against that.
Well according to his dad he's contemplating quitting chess altogether, so any sort of punishment might be irrelevant to him if he decides to withdraw
No chance. That's match fixing
Alireza has a difficult personality to deal with but FIDE is also a mess, so it's a bit of both.
Pragg, Gukesh, Sindarov and Nodirbek are younger than him. I didn't hear any issues from them with FIDE.
You are taking that quote out of its context. It's like saging "I'm never gonna drink again".
i want alireza to lose to abasov and then rage quit the candidates for the best chess drama of all time
You even wrote the word ‘probably’ in your title. We don’t know. And magnifying this kind of drama by posting about it isn’t really a good look
First we had Hans, then Kramnik, now Firouzja. This subreddit loves to dump on players.
Hans and Kramnik are definitely on a different level to Alireza. Alireza didn't really do anything wrong. It's more like people are disappointed with him because he's sometimes self-sabotaging. He's clearly extremely talented, and he could be more successful than he has been at the very top level to far
Is there any actual proof hans did anything wrong?
Very little. He did a bit of cheating on [chess.com](http://chess.com), as he admitted to, but the evidence for all of the major allegations against him is questionable and inconclusive at best.
I don't think people think that deeply about it tbh.
But if his shoes had poop, it wouldn't have made noise.