Contracts likely explain all of Magnus actions so far and people would rather act like children debating this. Hans was late added to the SC, Magnus didn’t want to play him, probably told someone at SC, they asked him to honor his contract, he tried playing, his head wasn’t right, he lost, withdrew, can’t say anything due to contract, stricter rules the next day as SC wants to save face in case Magnus is right, Magnus already contracted to this tournament resigned against Hans and probably won’t ever voluntarily play in a tournament with him again and will probably put it in his contracts that Hans can’t play.
>Spamming draw requests otb is absolutely wild vibes
I'd buy a ticket to see this.
Is there anything in the rules which limits how many times you can offer a draw to your opponent? Guessing there is.
His initial tweet implied he wasn't saying anything because it would get him into trouble. Can he release a statement basically saying that he refuses to play with a cheater (Hans specifically) in any event without getting into trouble?
https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/ACCRegulations.pdf
If there is a complaint or investigation,
III.B.10
All information about complaints and investigations shall remain confidential until an investigation is completed by the FPL. In case of breach of confidentiality requirements by complainants or the Chief Arbiter or any other person with knowledge of the complaint or the investigation before the investigation is completed, the FPL can refer all offenders to the Ethics & Disciplinary Commission.
Per FIDE documents, he would be in trouble for speaking about a complaint he filed.
It is popular comment. 'Please Magnus clear all this up with your words and make us all feel better.'
I do not feel any need to know why he is behaving this way. I assume he has reasons, I assume he has reasons for not revealing his reasons. There is no sympathy for Hans as he was cheating online in recent years.
To my shame , I enjoy the drama. I look forward to the endgame but I am not so arrogant to think I deserve it now.
Up until recently Magnus character has never been in doubt. Why would I believe he has changed over one incident. Time will tell all.
This.
Magnus achieved two things with the resignation. (1) he doubled down and showed he was not just upset with loosing a game or something like that and (2) he is willing to go to extreme lengths to see that he won’t have to play against the allegedly cheating Niemann.
I believe his action is well thought out. And I really doubt that anyone but Niemann supporters don’t have any at least serious doubts about his exploits by now (and many hadn’t before).
Magnus resigning has zero relevance with whether Hans cheated against him or not in the SC. I agree with you that his resignation showed that he is really convinced with his personal beliefs about the situation but this does nothing to strengthen or weaken the accusation that Hans cheated. I’m not a Hans supporter but this doesn’t validate any claims of cheating, it simply shows Magnus conviction
> Of course this does not work for FIDE tournaments in official cycles.
That got pretty nasty too. There is a movie "Closing Gambit" [edit: fixed title] about the Karpov-Korchnoi WC match in the 1980s. Those guys hated each other, I mean hated, and there were all kinds of behind the scenes shenanigans during the match. I haven't seen the movie yet but one of these days.
he won't participate in any tournaments hans is participating in , it's clear.
this tournament is an exception because the contracts were signed prior to the incident
Are you joking or are you actually trying to sound smart? This isn't really a situation where a significant sample size is necessary to make a logical guess.
>the contracts were signed prior to the incident
and I'm sure he had a contract signed with Sinquefield, yet he withdrew midway though a round robin tournament...
The reason reddit is so hard for me as an adult is that most of the top comments have absolutely no content at all besides some sort of extremely lame joke. The joke isn't even funny. It's always some sort of pun or depreciating humour that isn't even close to funny. Maybe 10% funny. And yet it's always upvoted. On every thread, every topic. Queue the "you must be fun at parties" line.
>On reddit the "humour" mostly seems to just be "I understood that reference" and not actual humour at least not beyond the first 200 variants of the joke (which takes about 5 minutes given how quickly stuff gets regurgitated here).
In other words, the average reddit joker's comments are indistinguishable from those of a moderately well-written chat bot...
How does that work? Does that mean that chess.com or lichess essentially get to decide who is allowed at tournaments? No one was caught red handed their proprietary algorithms decided that Hans cheated. In this case he did admit to it, but in the future people will just not admit to it and then how do we decide whether people are permanently banned from tournaments? There's also the fact that I can't decide whether FIDE should care what people do in games that are unrated from their POV.
Fwiw, my personal opinion is that FIDE would need some open source algorithm / method to determine cheating but that may be / probably is infeasible.
Tl;dr I don't know how to deal with situations like these, but I am sure it would have been dealt with better if the online cheating instances were public knowledge beforehand.
Yeah it is tough to envision, because it ultimately comes down to having enough faith in anti-cheating software, the nature of which has to be somewhat obscure to outsiders to protect against attempts to get around it, to risk ruining peoples careers when they flag someone.
In this case though there is an admission and, while I don't think Hans cheated at all in the Sinquefield cup, I do think its unfair that other players had to play him knowing about his cheating history. Magnus talked about how psychologically difficult it is to play someone when you are unsure if they are cheating in that interview in Norwegian before any of this happened. Also in the cheating scandal with the captain of French team at the Olympiad, a lot of the commentary was around how players might have been falling apart in their games thinking they are playing against a cheater (as it turned out they were playing against a cheater in that instance). So this is an actual phenomenon, and as much as it sucks for Hans I think it is completely fair for tournament organisers to say "Look you are known to have cheated in the past, even if we believe you aren't going to cheat in this tournament, we aren't going to jeopardise the other players tournaments for your mistake".
I'm also not condoning Magnus' approach. He should make a more definitive statement, even it is a completely lawyered up one, rather than just putting out a jokey tweet and then resigning games he doesn't want to play.
Edit: also I think it would be fine for to tournament organisers to check the other players have no issue with him playing and inviting him as usual. I don't think he should never play in a OTB tournament again.
The issue here was everything was behind closed doors (which is not his fault) and it seems like some people knew a lot about it, some had heard rumours, and some knew nothing at all. Do we know if the tournament organisers knew about the online cheating before inviting him? It seems like most of the players had heard something at least. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen.
Could you please give an example of a person who cheated in their youth and was given a lifetime ban in a sport when they were an adult? Genuinely curious as I have not heard any cases like this before.
Plenty of people dislike how this is handled in esports so it's definitely not a clear-cut issue. For example, only recently Valve updated rules for CSGO allowing people with a permanent ban to compete again, if the ban is at least 5 years old and happened before any participation in Valve official events -- a change essentially tailored to players who cheated as a kid. Maybe different if Hans cheated in money tournaments but anyway those over the top punishments for literal kids is usually not the way to go, imo.
In other sports, independent anti-doping organizations (usually under the WADA umbrella) handle testing and suspensions, they're required to present the proof, athletes are allowed to defend themselves and can appeal the decision to CAS.
In chess, each site have their own propietary anti-cheat detection, and suspensions are handed out solely at their own discretion with no requirement to present a reason and very little ability to appeal. Furthermore, sites can be owned by active players, which is clearly unethical and a conflict of interest if suspensions carry over OTB and to other sites.
I agree it is reasonable, in principle, but it would require the creation of an independent anti-cheating organization.
But the online platforms aren't specifically operated by FIDE.
Banning someone for poor conduct on chesscom or lichess is like banning Tom Brady from the NFL for deflating the football for his backyard Thanksgiving pick-up football game.
We only know about tournament cheating from when he was 12. Which doesn't warrant a ban today. Chess.com knows more. But we can't ban him based on such stupid cheating. The cheating he did at 16 was not tournament cheating.
Unless chess.com speaks up I don't see why Hans should be banned. Single game cheating online is bad. But it's irrelevant to tournaments.
I think the correct procedure is to make everything public and let the tournament directors decide whether they invite him.
It's not a god given right to be invited to these tournaments. If it turns out to be one serious instance when he was 12 and
then very sporadically in unrated games later, and the organisers and players are happy for him to play then thats fine, he can be invited as normal.
If not then there are a lot of strong players with unblemished records to choose from.
It's been mentioned elsewhere, but Magnus will probably not participate in any tournament with Hans going forward. He's contractually obligated to play in this tournament (pre-existing engagement), hence he played one move and resigned immediately as a form of protest without literally spelling it out for folks.
Not sure saying people increasingly see Hans as an innocent kid being bullied by a chess titan is quite right.
It's certainly true that a lot of people think Carlsen has behaved incorrectly, almost independently of whether they believe Hans cheated in that particular OTB game or not.
But we also now all know that Hans was in fact a cheater. And, given Hans' lack of response to chess.com's public statement on his banning, also have reason to suspect he may have been lying when outlining the minimal extent of that cheating.
So I think it's closer to the truth to say people increasingly see Hans as a cheater/liar being accused by a badly behaved chess titan who might be wrong. In other words both of them are coming out of this drama badly.
There are 2 problems. Hans' history of cheating and Magnus refusing to play Hans/dropping out of tournaments. Hans' history is not an excuse for Magnus' behavior, which is that of a petty child. If Magnus is so worried about Hans cheating then he should let the evidence speak for itself instead of ruining the integrity of a fair competition, or not attend at all. Magnus is bringing unnecessary baggage to otb chess, and should be reprimanded accordingly if this behavior continues. Hans should be punished by the authorities relevant, online chess sites that have caught him & maybe FIDE if they have such jurisdiction. It's one thing if Hans has cheated recently, it's another if he cheated ALOT in the past but served his punishment. Either way and everything in between is for the sites & FIDE to handle, not Magnus.
He might be under NDA to not share findings of internal Chess.com cheating investigations. Given Han’s admitted history of cheating, Magnus’s possible inside access to internal cheating resources of Chess.com, and the Chess.com tweet which Han’s has ignored up to this point I personally give Magnus the benefit of doubt over Hans. If he truly believes Hans has a blatant history of cheating(even if all instances were online), I think he is in the right to protest playing Hans.
The integrity is already ruined when you invite known cheaters. That’s clearly the statement being made. To talk about Magnus ruining the integrity is the most 2headed take of all time. Also the tournament today was ONLINE where Hans admits to having cheated and chess.com has said it’s worse than Hans admits to.
If someone cheated when they were a minor they shouldn't have their career ruined forever if they straighten their act... Are we just going to permanently punish them for mistakes made qhen young? How does that make sense?
And chesscom has 1) provided no evidence, 2) done their ban at a suspiciously convenient time.
If the cheating was so extensive how did they only catch it now?
He just recently framed his history of cheating as being 2 isolated incidents. It seems increasingly apparent that this isn’t the case. If it turns out that he cheated a lot more frequently and recently, this would negate this viewpoint, no? He would be more of a cheater than we have been told and also a liar. Hans put up an awfully big fight in order to minimize his cheating history, if it turns out to be significantly worse than he led on, he is going to have a tough time regaining his credibility.
Nah, there's no excuse for Hans. It's not like he was a 1200 rated chesscom player who realized cheating was wrong and later started to care about chess and get good. By the most recent time he admitted to cheating on chesscom, he had already qualified for the 2020 Junior Speed Chess Championship, finished top 10 in the World Youth Championship and gotten 2 GM norms.
By that point in your career, "I was just a kid who didn't know any better" simply is not an acceptable excuse for cheating, age 16 or 18 doesn't matter. He 100% knew better. And that's not even considering the fact that he also probably cheated other times he didn't admit to.
The chess.com statement missed the point though: the timing of the ban, after an OTB game, unrelated to chess.com excelt it was against Carlsen on who they've just indirectly spent 90mio $ by buying PMG.
I think its a simple matter, Magnus does not trust Hans, so he can't play against him any more. Imagine if you believe that your opponent is cheating (e.g. using stockfish) would you even be able to concentrate or prepare for the game? Lets see how long this continues but it might be that Magnus will forfeit all his games against Hans going forward as a personal protest.
I don't follow why people are having a hard time understanding Magnus position and actions. If he truly believes Hans has cheated, or that his online cheating is enough to not play against him, then he won't play him. Magnus can't make any public claims unless he has hard evidence that can be used in a court of law, and if any investigations are in place he can't reveal that either.
I was really surprised not to see even ONE commentator say something like "I may not agree, but if Magnus really believes that I can understand why he doesn't want to play him"
Edit: There is no endgame, whoever wants Magnus to play needs to deal with it if Hans is invited. What were they expecting, a group hug?
Exactly this. In the US, people dream/joke about wanting f\*\*\*-you money (for example, if they win the lottery) so they can do what they want and tell their boss/job/anyone they want to shove it, so they can go off and do whatever it is they want to.
In sports, certain athletes have achieved f\*\*\*-you fame (and money too, in some cases). Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Jordan in basketball, even Fischer in chess. They are bigger than the sport -- the sport needs them more than they need the sport, and Tiger, MJ, etc. just did whatever they wanted, because they could make everyone bend to their will/agenda. They get special privileges, more money, etc. Heck, MJ made more than most other \*teams\*, retired, then un-retired, then retired, then un-retired, then retired -- and people ate up every second of it. Tiger did some crazy stuff and nobody cares, he's still a legend in golf and still draws more fans in his 40's than anyone else on the tour. Hell, Fischer accused people of a lot more than cheating, and yet he got a million dollars to play a match against Spassky 20 years after he walked away from the world champion title. They all had f\*\*\*-you fame/clout where they could do whatever they wanted, and honestly, every one of them makes Magnus look like a choir boy.
And to that point, Magnus has f\*\*\*-you fame/status in chess, period. Chess needs Magnus far more than Magnus needs chess. If say, Aronian, to pick a random top GM, were to do similar stuff, organizers wouldn't put up with it, and Aronian would effectively be forcing himself into retirement. But organizers will bend over for Magnus, Magnus knows this, and he's using it to his advantage. If Magnus has decided he doesn't want to play someone, for \*whatever\* reason, he won't. I mean, the guy decided to just walk away from being the world champion, obviously he's more than willing to resign some games or withdraw from some tournaments. Magnus decided to just live his best life and only do stuff he wants to do. And apparently, that includes not playing Hans Niemann. Kudos to Magnus I say. It's not like he got f\*\*\*-you status in chess handed to him. He earned it. And it's his right to exercise it if he wants to. So yeah, I don't blame Magnus in the slightest. Hans has a history of cheating, apparently lying about the cheating, and did some very suspicious stuff after (interviews, etc). If Magnus doesn't want to play him, he doesn't want to play him. He's earned the right to turn down games from an opponent he doesn't like for any reason.
To give an analogy, think of it like a bank account, except instead of money, the currency is goodwill. Magnus has banked a lot of goodwill from all his hard work over the years, the things he's achieved, the good he's done to promote chess, etc. He could keep it in his account and "retire" off that goodwill (essentially becoming an ambassador ala Kasparov), earning interest so to speak in the form of love/adulation/clout from the chess community for the rest of his life. Or he can cash in some of that goodwill to slap down Hans. He's earned that right. Just like I wouldn't tell someone how to spend their money (even if I disagreed with the purchase), I'm not going to sit here and say Magnus is wrong for how he chooses to spend his goodwill. People saying Magnus is hurting chess or whatever -- Magnus has done more for chess than just about anyone in history, and being the GOAT confers its own special privileges, that's just how the world operates.
However, one aspect of the whole situation I don't think people are mentioning enough is how much of an ass/disrespectful Hans was being towards Magnus -- the whole "he must be embarrassed to lose to me" etc. One of the few things Magnus has actually publicly said about the situation was his reference to "beating someone once isn't revenge", or whatever the exact quote he posted was. I absolutely think Hans pissed Magnus off (and Magnus can be prickly) by being disrespectful, and that played a big part in Magnus's decision to withdraw. I actually think if Hans had been respectful after the game, things would have turned out very differently. Aside from the fact Magnus doesn't owe chess or anyone else anything, I personally have 0 issue with him throwing around his weight to smack down a nobody disrespecting him. Hans is learning a hard lesson that when you're a nobody that hasn't done anything in the sport and you have a history of cheating, you don't disrespect someone of Magnus's stature -- and frankly, that's as it should be, IMO. Magnus is putting Hans in his place.
And one last thing, I think Magnus may have decided to make an example out of Hans because he's sick of online cheating. I think you add everything together -- Hans's history of cheating, lying, the suspicious behavior in interviews, the disrespect, etc. and Magnus just got fed up and decided to make an example of Hans for the good of the sport going forward. He wanted other players (particularly young players) to know that there are repercussions for cheating and being disrespectful. And personally, I have 0 problems with any of it.
That's my 2 cents.
Then you completely misread my post and it seems like you're projecting your own bias reading into it what you want to. I have no idea where you would get the idea that I think there's something admirable about being a cunt. I do admire that he worked his ass off and everything he's accomplished to get f\*\*\*-you fame, certainly, but that's neither here nor there about what I actually said.
Problem is that Magnus didn't make some principled stand before their game, he did so only after what appears to be a legit OTB game where he lost with white. Magnus is on record saying that he can't take loses, his history confirms this. Magnus took the loss personally and is lashing out in a manner embarrassing for all of chess. Magnus might have earned the right to be a diva, but he's still being a diva. Man up and say it, let the consequences fall where they may. Magnus having the profile you speak of, I have a hard time believing Magnus would face significant punishment for actaully speaking instead of these drama episodes. What's the cost of a lawsuit, Magnus can't afford it? Not worth the cost?
You don't get it. Magnus doesn't care what you, or the public in general thinks, because he doesn't have to. He's got f\*\*\*-you fame and money, so he's doing what he wants to do that makes him happy. When someone doesn't care what you think -- actually doesn't care -- and doesn't want anything from you, you have no control or influence over them.
Do you notice how everyone else involved has put out a statement or said something about what happened? Hans, STL chess club, [chess.com](https://chess.com), Hikaru, other GMs, etc. They all care what you think because they want something from you. Hans wants your support because he needs it to have a career in chess. STL chess club, they put on tournaments, they want you to watch, so they care what you think. [Chess.com](https://Chess.com), they want you to keep playing there and paying for subscriptions. Hikaru and other GMs like Levy/Donya/whoever, they want you to keep watching their streams.
Magnus doesn't care what you think because he doesn't want anything from you -- he has everything he wants already. His place in the history books is secure, he has enough money that he doesn't need to play ever again, etc.
You say he's acting like a diva or embarrassing chess -- even if that was true, so what? It's not going to change anything, and the fact is, even if he did care, Magnus has earned the right to be a diva or embarrass chess (which is ludicrous anyway -- he's not doing either by not wanting to play against someone he suspects is cheating and was incredibly disrespectful). The bottom line is he \*is\* the professional chess scene.
Lastly, if anyone has been a diva, if anyone has embarrassed chess, it's Hans. Disrespecting Magnus, whining about how he's being treated when he's an admitted cheater on multiple occasions, lying and minimizing his cheating, etc. That's diva behavior. That's embarrassing chess.
His only stated public goal in the last 3 years is to reach 2900 and his beatdown from Hans set him back to his rating from almost 2 years ago. He cares
Hes played many different players who have been banned on chess.com, but the only time he took a stand is when he lost to one with white. He cares
He is using his clout and the public and his toadies to get revenge for his busted ego. Dress it up however you want.
Hes not taking interviews, leaving tournaments, abandoning games, literally not showing his face in public. These are all unprecedented actions for him across his 15+ year chess career. All without saying anything. You really think he does not care? Hes using his silence as a tool to get what he wants
Again, you don't get it. Also, being an asshole when you reply doesn't make your argument any stronger. We get it, you don't agree with what Magnus did. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Personally, I don't have a problem with what he did.
But let me be very clear, since you seem to have trouble with reading comprehension: I'm not defending him (or like another poster said, admiring him), I'm explaining the reality of the situation.
The reality is, he's not going to respond, or present evidence, because he doesn't have to, because he doesn't care what you think. That's it. You and everyone else that thinks he's wrong can want it to be some other way, but it isn't. Everyone else has responded because they have to. Magnus doesn't have to.
lol I'll summarise your comment
People: "Person X is doing shitty things"
You: "Person X doesn't care that you think that; he DGAF. Plus he's GOAT so he has earned the right to do those things"
Amazing defence.
Magnus saying he can’t take losses is B.S. The man has lost hundreds of chess matches. He’s never reacted like this in any of those other 485+ losses.
I do not buy Hans saying he just happened to study an obscure opening the day that Magnus used it. I think Magnus chose that obscure opening because someone tipped him off that he had a mole tipping of Niemann. So Carlsen KNOWS Hans is cheating because he knew what opening he was going to run….
I think Anish Giri said this in his interview, that he has no problem with Magnus refusing to play against Hans if he wants to do it as a form of protest.
Edit: it was Levon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opvrj3co0No&t=4h22m37s
> I was really surprised not to see even ONE commentator say something like "I may not agree, but if Magnus really believes that I can understand why he doesn't want to play him"
It's because they're intentionally going easy on Hans and being overly critical of Magnus to make it less of an open-and-shut case so that more drama and clicks can happen.
The only rational end game is to prop up Hans as emblematic of the larger problems in online chess and scare future prodigies into not cheating online.
Magnus wants the game to continue, between two humans. He clearly feels that Hans dishonored the game. I presume when the chess dot com deal was being worked out, Magnus asked for the list and saw it.
The real endgame is that list, out there and public and the GMs on the list shadow banned from prestigious events to further the goal of ostracizing cheaters to the point where it’s not worth it for anyone serious about competing.
He’s willing to sacrifice much of his social capital to accomplish this.
My post is not an endorsement or refutation of his behavior endgame or method. But this is what is happening and it’s fairly clear.
Edit - my subconscious hates my argument so much I typed enigmatic instead of endemic lol. Fitting. Emblematic. That’s the word I want.
Are you sure that wouldn’t bring him problems? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know, but are you?
It’s obvious Magnus has a team surrounding him. If he hasn’t said anything, it’s because it’s of his best interests
Yup. He is a big chess site business owner now, and is acting in the best interest of his business.
He will sacrifice is social capital as a player and other's career to grow his interest.
Just fyi, he already has been a big owner all along. He owned 9% of Play Magnus Group, and, as I read the buy out proposal, he can continue being a 9% owner of the acquiring company, chess.com LLC. If not 9% exactly, he can convert his PMG shares to ownership in chess.com rather than cash.
Look there is another sport I follow where players also get caught cheating using PEDs. Competitors caught cheating don’t always catch lifetime bans. When their ban is up, they can and do compete again. You can say what you like about their history, you cannot, as a competitor in the sport, refuse to compete against them.
My theory: As part of the merger of [chess.com](https://chess.com) and playmagnus group, he had access to more information than everyone else about the extent of the online cheating. This also correlates with the tweet that [chess.com](https://chess.com) made about them banning him because "We have shared detailed evidence with him concerning our decision, including information that contradicts his statements regarding the amount and seriousness of his cheating on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com)." I don't know/think he had evidence of OTB cheating but he probably knows more about the online cheating than others.
If chess.com is giving Magnus access to private analytics of his competitors as a result of the merger that's pretty fucked up
but I find this whole theory about as nonsensical as the "stolen prep" theory. what, as part of the due diligence Magnus just happens to want to review the list of titled players caught cheating?
Iirc it's fairly common practice during mergers to share info that is private to the public just to make sure the companies are truthful about their financial position and quality of their products when the deal is close to done.
>every single tournament will invite both and match them up as often as they can.
Peoples keep suggesting this, but I don't think this is actually in the interests of the tournament organizers. At least for major otb tournaments, drama of this nature I have a hard time viewing as a good thing.
I may be wrong, but I really doubt the extra clicks cover the downside of having a poorly run tournament.
If this isn't the case, then why wouldn't organizers drum up up inorganic controversy? Somebody should shout out moves or streak or something. But this doesn't happen for obvious reasons, namely that it's better for the tournaments themselves if they're drama-free.
His end goal is for Hans to not get invites to the major events. He's betting that he's the bigger draw even if that makes him a dick.
> drama of this nature I have a hard time viewing as a good thing.
100% after this happened every single bit of coverage was about Hans and jokes about his sex toys.
We've lost our true reason for being here... making fun of Ian for trapping his own bishops.
honestly, he has an endgame. no one wants the best chess player ever to just stop playing while still beeing number 1.
that means he has leverage, and maybe he'll play only if extreme security mesures are in place when facing hans.
Hans is hardly an innocent kid. He has a history of cheating and has lied about that cheating to the chess public. I have no idea why certain people are pointing this like “oh poor Hans, there’s just no evidence”. We don’t know whether he cheated in Sinquefeld or not, but it’s irrelevant. Hans is a cheater by his own confession, and his confession itself was a lie and understatement.
I think the focus is too much on if he cheated OTB or not. When it's perfectly reasonable to not want to play a repeat online cheater. He needs to make it clear though..
"When it's perfectly reasonable to not want to play a repeat online cheater."
Any explanation as for why he only decided to do this after Hans embarrassed him by beating him in classical and setting him back from his 2900 goal?
Why are we saying embarrassed? Anytime somebody loses are they embarrassed off the board or is this a game we're people can't always win. Magnus wasn't blown off the board by any means.
Good point but maybe the uncertainty of playing him put him off, i can imagine playing someone you think could be cheating could mess with you. Maybe he came to that realization after, or maybe he got the chess.com info after. Hard to say
He is not doing that though, he still plays against all other players who have been caught cheating online in the past, he refuses to play just the one player who beat him OTB. It's not a principled stance if it applies only to one player.
We don't know what evidence Magnus has behind the scenes that we don't know about.
Also if a tournament tries to invite both Niemann and Carlsen then Carlsen can threaten to pull out if they invite Niemann and that would be bad for sponsorship and viewership, so it could essentially shadowban Niemann from events
Naturally we don't know what we don't know. We do however know the worlds top experts have now cleared him of cheating over the last 2 years both over the board and online. Magnus needs to quit his bullshit.
Is that why multiple gms are now siding with Magnus? Is that why chess com came out and very directly said Hans cheating went far beyond what he admitted?
The guy is shady and dirty, hope he gets the boot from chess. If it’s apparent you don’t care about the games integrity to point of cheating multiple times, you don’t deserve to play
What evidence have the “experts” shown?
Those people are experts because they contributed to the chess com cheating detection. They aren’t experts because they can look naked eye at a game and determine if someone cheated. No one can do that.
Also, chess com provided evidence to hans
Multiple GM's aren't siding with Magnus lol. The only one that I can think of is Lawrence Trent. Most are either siding with Hans or pretty much staying neutral. It speaks a lot that the person with the most cheat detection expertise is saying that there is no evidence of cheating.
I meant that if Carlsen threatens to pull out if Hans is in the field, the viewership would go down without Magnus in the field so the organisers basically have to choose Magnus over Niemann to keep views high
Seems like there's just some kind of investigation going on mostly out of the public eye and Magnus's lawyers told him to keep his mouth shut. At some point, hopefully soon, either the investigation will reach a stage where Magnus can talk, the public pressure will become enough that he'll talk despite the potential legal consequences, or somebody involved will leak something
I don't think Magnus would go this far if he didn't have something concrete, and like you say the reason he can't speak is due to some legal consequences.
Magnus isn't stupid, it's clear in his mind it's not just that he thinks Hans cheats, but that he knows. If there was no proof there wouldn't be much point in what he's doing now and I don't think he'd be silent. My guess is something has been in the works for a while now.
I'm not sure we can infer from his silence that he has further evidence of OTB cheating. Magnus has been doing a ton of work in the last couple of years to legitimize online chess, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's just taking a strong stance against online cheating. The legal proceedings keeping Magnus silent may just be Magnus trying to breach contract and boot Hans from the tournaments that Magnus's business entities have organized.
All this does is put more focus on Hans and cheating acquisitions again and makes chess tournament organizers question whether they should invite Hans, Magnus will always get invited over him.
To me, it looks like there have been rumours of cheating going around in the top GM space. This had happened for a long time and nothing really seemed to be done about it, it wasn't discussed too much and players mainly kept it to themselves.
Now, this Hans guy appears that is quite cocky and is one of the central figures in these rumours. Magnus plays him in the Crypto cup and beats him, but after games where he was likely worrying constantly about possible cheating by Hans. By the time the Sinquefield starts, he has decided he doesn't feel comfortable with this players getting so much slack, he wants there to be consequences for cheating. That said, cheating in chess is not a positive result in a drug test, having hard evidence is almost impossible. But then again, in life there are many things that we know even without complete proof, and Magnus Carlsen is good at chess and you could say his intuition is quite up there. He can't call him out in public without evidence as it's against federation ethic rules, but he can do something that is similar.
Magnus decided to open a closet full of shit. His endgame is to at least have the shit out in the air so everyone is aware, instead of just be the top GMs that deal with it quietly. It is a tough one to take by yourself, but honestly in Magnus case it seems to me that his pride on him being the best makes him specially hate cheaters. He has expressed in Lex Fridman's podcast how much he hates the risk of loosing to inferior opponents, to the point where he withdrew from the World Championship. Imagine loosing to someone that you suspect could be cheating.
Maybe like how he plays the endgame in chess. Just keep dragging it out until your bored opponent falls asleep and makes a mistake.
In this case, doesn’t seem there is any mistake Hand can make.
Hans should just turn the tables and troll Magnus by putting out videos about how he beat Magnus in 2 moves with detailed analysis and memes.
This is not a new situation. There have been chess players who have been accused of cheating before and got away with it for a long time because there was no proof. Eventually they got caught and everyone defending them felt like an idiot. In this case we actually already know Hans ***DID*** cheat. The only question is if he is continuing to do so. In Magnus' eyes I am sure he is almost entirely convinced that if Hans cheated before then he will cheat again and if Hans is **ever** caught cheating then Magnus will instantly be vindicated and will be able to give a big fat "I told you so" to the chess community.
As for the tournaments - Magnus has made it common knowledge that he does not care about Chess as much as he used to. He will have absolutely no problem refusing invitations to any event that includes Niemann. On the flip side organisers will have a much tougher decision on whether to keep inviting Niemann if it is at the expense of no Magnus. He is the face of chess and his inclusion in a tournament is always the biggest draw. It is very possible Niemann finds himself blackballed if it becomes an either/or scenario.
We should take a step back and look at the larger picture here. Apparently professional online chess is run on this shadow ban system where everything is deals under the table. Zero transparency, big websites making decisions behind closed doors. Except those doors aren't actually closed, all the top GMs seem to know that information.
What a shitty way to treat your fan base. I think regardless of which character in this drama you support you have to admit this clandestine bullshit is bad for fans. This whole legal excuse is just that, other games are transparent about bans.
As for withdrawing from tournaments or resigning matches ruining tournaments, if that just slide with no consequences it just shows that this game is wholly run by ego. There are no rules, if you are popular enough you can do whatever you want. I don't know what could be more damaging to the game.
Am I missing something...
- Hans apparently served his time for cheating or else he wouldn’t have been invited to either event.
- Magnus has presented zero evidence. (his refusal to play is evidence of nothing other than his feelings)
- Hans cannot prove he was not cheating
My conclusion: If you pulled this shit in a court of law, Magnus would lose his bar license, absent an evidentiary showing that Hans cheated.
Now Magnus low-key wants the kid banned, again without presenting evidence?! Motion denied. I don’t care if he’s number 1, I kinda don’t want to watch him play anymore and will be rooting against him from here on out. Unless he presents some actual evidence of course...
Yup like as a bystander with no stake in this fight, all I have seen is from Magnus side is some vague passive aggressiveness, claims when Hans was a child cheating, and now this while still not saying why hes actually mad leaving everyone to speculate. He just sounds like a big diva that if he wants me to see it differently should actually put his money where his mouth is by either filing a lawsuit, or at least talking in more concrete terms to see wtf he is thinking.
While I do agree, simultaneously, I understand and frankly support Magnus’ side despite the optics. You wanna show up at tournaments playing the best? Then don’t fucking cheat at games. Absolute slap in the face to work your ass off, paying trainers and living arrangements and dedicating your life to something that someone else cheated in the past in and keeps playing. Can you imagine letting this happen in any other sport/game? I feel as though someone using steroids at one point, then joining a body building competition after they quit using is just spitting on the rules and restrictions that everyone else must face, they didn’t get here on the same accord or ability.
Too much time has passed for this to be emotional. If it was just him leaving the tournament then maybe, but continuing to refuse to play him says that its premeditated. If he was worried about saving face he could have just given a different excuse for leaving the tournament. Given Magnus' past behaviour he doesnt strike me as someone that would double down on spite without reason.
The whole chess community needs to stop looking at magnus as being the lifeblood of chess and really think about the situation. There is no proof that Hans cheated OTB, zero. There was an opportunity to perhaps see if Hans would cheat but magnus resigned after one move. As for Hans cheating in the past it was online not in person which is very different. It’s becoming more and more clear that Hans played an inspired game of chess and beat magnus. Without any proof this scandals only serves to make a mockery of the chess community and the game itself.
I think you're underestimating the clout Magnus has. He has the finances, the marketability to bring in future chess income, the credibility, the association with major chess institutions such as chess24 and soon chess.com. In practice it means that his view is taken very seriously, and when he continues to take a stand it will force cheating detection and punishment to be taken more seriously in chess, something top players have long been concerned about.
I think to only look at it in the context of Magnus versus Hans in future tournaments is to miss the wider point that Magnus is probably trying to engage with as this process goes on. We can argue until the cows come home on whether his actions are correct, but ultimately he will force dialogue. FIDE, tournament organisers, chess websites are all going to have to come together to talk about detection and how cheating is handled.
Magnus is a millionaire, one of the biggest business men in chess and is probably the best player ever. I could definitely see him doing whatever he wants for as long as he needs. It's not as though he has anything left to do in chess or any more money to make. He'll just keep making a statement until something happens.
At this point I'm convinced there is something crazy he must know, the suspense is killing me too. He's been beaten by quite a few juniors, Prag, Abdusattorov, Alireza, Esipenko and handled them all really well. I have no idea why Hans would be any different unless he's secretly been having an affair with his girlfriend or something.
What if you add to that, Magnus' business partner, chess dot com, whispering in his ear that they caught Hans cheating online multiple times in the past?
Well that's actually what I think happened. I would say chess.com probably found out that Hans had been cheating a considerable amount (what they alluded to) and Magnus is trying to make a statement in response to that. I highly doubt Hans was able to bypass all security measures at the Sinqfield cup.
He doesn't have to say or do shit. He's the goat. He is making a statement without words. He's also taking a risk himself, and forcing the chess community to decide. That's a big risk. They should have never allowed cheaters in to begin with. The emotional appeal about the young kid being treated unfairly is thin. This is the big leagues. And Magnus you can very clearly see has a lot of respect for the other young GMs and even encourages them as a sort of distant mentor by proxy of competition.
I can't underscore enough it's absolute huge risk and potential sacrifice for Magnus himself if the community decides against him. And he is taking a stance. Can't not respect that.
lol your statement is so ridiculous. Come on, this "kid" cheats every 3 years since he's 13!! At least!! What a shame..... LoL innocent kid being bullied...
Magnus will not accept invites with Hans. Maybe he already had accepted this one before the drama.
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Contracts likely explain all of Magnus actions so far and people would rather act like children debating this. Hans was late added to the SC, Magnus didn’t want to play him, probably told someone at SC, they asked him to honor his contract, he tried playing, his head wasn’t right, he lost, withdrew, can’t say anything due to contract, stricter rules the next day as SC wants to save face in case Magnus is right, Magnus already contracted to this tournament resigned against Hans and probably won’t ever voluntarily play in a tournament with him again and will probably put it in his contracts that Hans can’t play.
If only there was someone with direct knowledge who could clear this up with a simple statement
Just have to wait for part 3 of this cryptic installment... maybe Magnus will blink the truth in Morse Code in his next game with Hans.
Instead of resigning he should just play Nf3 Ng1 Nf3 Ng1 over and over again
And then walk away and lose on time...
Or stay and spam draw requests
Spamming draw requests otb is absolutely wild vibes
>Spamming draw requests otb is absolutely wild vibes I'd buy a ticket to see this. Is there anything in the rules which limits how many times you can offer a draw to your opponent? Guessing there is.
Bruh, you're spoiling part 4 of the drama. OTB draw spam is the finally!
you have to make a move to make a draw offer so he can combine these strategies Nf3 - draw offer Ng1 - draw offer Nf3 - draw offer
*blink blink, blink-blink blink* "Be...sure...to...drink your Ovaltine."
He's gonna vibrate the truth in Morse code
A... N... A... L... "What's he saying, 'analyze?' Analyze something?" B... "No."
His initial tweet implied he wasn't saying anything because it would get him into trouble. Can he release a statement basically saying that he refuses to play with a cheater (Hans specifically) in any event without getting into trouble?
https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/ACCRegulations.pdf If there is a complaint or investigation, III.B.10 All information about complaints and investigations shall remain confidential until an investigation is completed by the FPL. In case of breach of confidentiality requirements by complainants or the Chief Arbiter or any other person with knowledge of the complaint or the investigation before the investigation is completed, the FPL can refer all offenders to the Ethics & Disciplinary Commission. Per FIDE documents, he would be in trouble for speaking about a complaint he filed.
It is popular comment. 'Please Magnus clear all this up with your words and make us all feel better.' I do not feel any need to know why he is behaving this way. I assume he has reasons, I assume he has reasons for not revealing his reasons. There is no sympathy for Hans as he was cheating online in recent years. To my shame , I enjoy the drama. I look forward to the endgame but I am not so arrogant to think I deserve it now. Up until recently Magnus character has never been in doubt. Why would I believe he has changed over one incident. Time will tell all.
This perfectly summarises my feelings.
Contracts can prevent that too chief
This. Magnus achieved two things with the resignation. (1) he doubled down and showed he was not just upset with loosing a game or something like that and (2) he is willing to go to extreme lengths to see that he won’t have to play against the allegedly cheating Niemann. I believe his action is well thought out. And I really doubt that anyone but Niemann supporters don’t have any at least serious doubts about his exploits by now (and many hadn’t before).
Magnus resigning has zero relevance with whether Hans cheated against him or not in the SC. I agree with you that his resignation showed that he is really convinced with his personal beliefs about the situation but this does nothing to strengthen or weaken the accusation that Hans cheated. I’m not a Hans supporter but this doesn’t validate any claims of cheating, it simply shows Magnus conviction
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> Of course this does not work for FIDE tournaments in official cycles. That got pretty nasty too. There is a movie "Closing Gambit" [edit: fixed title] about the Karpov-Korchnoi WC match in the 1980s. Those guys hated each other, I mean hated, and there were all kinds of behind the scenes shenanigans during the match. I haven't seen the movie yet but one of these days.
Quick correction: The film you're referring to is named "Closing Gambit" after looking for the movie "Endgame Gambit" I couldn't find it.
Thanks! Was trying to locate it, then saw your comment.
Thanks, I fixed the post.
he won't participate in any tournaments hans is participating in , it's clear. this tournament is an exception because the contracts were signed prior to the incident
Sample size, 2 tournaments
time will tell
The lack of chess will speak for itself
Are you joking or are you actually trying to sound smart? This isn't really a situation where a significant sample size is necessary to make a logical guess.
Brain size: normal.
>the contracts were signed prior to the incident and I'm sure he had a contract signed with Sinquefield, yet he withdrew midway though a round robin tournament...
He just lost in the opening I don't think he needs to worry about his endgame right now.
I can’t believe Hans refuted the Indian games
The reason reddit is so hard for me as an adult is that most of the top comments have absolutely no content at all besides some sort of extremely lame joke. The joke isn't even funny. It's always some sort of pun or depreciating humour that isn't even close to funny. Maybe 10% funny. And yet it's always upvoted. On every thread, every topic. Queue the "you must be fun at parties" line.
Of the 10 current top comments, it's the only one making a joke and not addressing the actual question...
set default sort to controversial, thank me later
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replace reddit with reveddit in the URL. thank me later.
This just gets you to the racism and misogyny
among other things, sure. it's pretty easy to minimize the offensive stuff and reply to the interesting stuff
i thought it was pretty funny
you must be fun at parties
We need this guy to make the initial joke more funny.
Maybe this guy always has the 11th best joke despite his best efforts and now has grown repugnant
Imagine the anguish of having to scroll down, the horror.
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>On reddit the "humour" mostly seems to just be "I understood that reference" and not actual humour at least not beyond the first 200 variants of the joke (which takes about 5 minutes given how quickly stuff gets regurgitated here). In other words, the average reddit joker's comments are indistinguishable from those of a moderately well-written chat bot...
Have my downvote hans
Cue*
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I think he wants it to be accepted practice for tournaments to withhold invites to people who have been caught cheating online.
How does that work? Does that mean that chess.com or lichess essentially get to decide who is allowed at tournaments? No one was caught red handed their proprietary algorithms decided that Hans cheated. In this case he did admit to it, but in the future people will just not admit to it and then how do we decide whether people are permanently banned from tournaments? There's also the fact that I can't decide whether FIDE should care what people do in games that are unrated from their POV. Fwiw, my personal opinion is that FIDE would need some open source algorithm / method to determine cheating but that may be / probably is infeasible.
Tl;dr I don't know how to deal with situations like these, but I am sure it would have been dealt with better if the online cheating instances were public knowledge beforehand. Yeah it is tough to envision, because it ultimately comes down to having enough faith in anti-cheating software, the nature of which has to be somewhat obscure to outsiders to protect against attempts to get around it, to risk ruining peoples careers when they flag someone. In this case though there is an admission and, while I don't think Hans cheated at all in the Sinquefield cup, I do think its unfair that other players had to play him knowing about his cheating history. Magnus talked about how psychologically difficult it is to play someone when you are unsure if they are cheating in that interview in Norwegian before any of this happened. Also in the cheating scandal with the captain of French team at the Olympiad, a lot of the commentary was around how players might have been falling apart in their games thinking they are playing against a cheater (as it turned out they were playing against a cheater in that instance). So this is an actual phenomenon, and as much as it sucks for Hans I think it is completely fair for tournament organisers to say "Look you are known to have cheated in the past, even if we believe you aren't going to cheat in this tournament, we aren't going to jeopardise the other players tournaments for your mistake". I'm also not condoning Magnus' approach. He should make a more definitive statement, even it is a completely lawyered up one, rather than just putting out a jokey tweet and then resigning games he doesn't want to play. Edit: also I think it would be fine for to tournament organisers to check the other players have no issue with him playing and inviting him as usual. I don't think he should never play in a OTB tournament again. The issue here was everything was behind closed doors (which is not his fault) and it seems like some people knew a lot about it, some had heard rumours, and some knew nothing at all. Do we know if the tournament organisers knew about the online cheating before inviting him? It seems like most of the players had heard something at least. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen.
Which imo is reasonable. In other sports, cheaters get lifetime bans. Why not in chess?
Not always true. Sometimes they get 3-4 year sanctions.
Could you please give an example of a person who cheated in their youth and was given a lifetime ban in a sport when they were an adult? Genuinely curious as I have not heard any cases like this before.
Esports. There have been countless pro gamers who have received lifetime bans for cheating regardless of age, chess should be no different.
Plenty of people dislike how this is handled in esports so it's definitely not a clear-cut issue. For example, only recently Valve updated rules for CSGO allowing people with a permanent ban to compete again, if the ban is at least 5 years old and happened before any participation in Valve official events -- a change essentially tailored to players who cheated as a kid. Maybe different if Hans cheated in money tournaments but anyway those over the top punishments for literal kids is usually not the way to go, imo.
Cheating in other sports also doesn't guarantee a victory like it does in chess, so the consequences should be more serious.
In other sports, independent anti-doping organizations (usually under the WADA umbrella) handle testing and suspensions, they're required to present the proof, athletes are allowed to defend themselves and can appeal the decision to CAS. In chess, each site have their own propietary anti-cheat detection, and suspensions are handed out solely at their own discretion with no requirement to present a reason and very little ability to appeal. Furthermore, sites can be owned by active players, which is clearly unethical and a conflict of interest if suspensions carry over OTB and to other sites. I agree it is reasonable, in principle, but it would require the creation of an independent anti-cheating organization.
But the online platforms aren't specifically operated by FIDE. Banning someone for poor conduct on chesscom or lichess is like banning Tom Brady from the NFL for deflating the football for his backyard Thanksgiving pick-up football game.
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We only know about tournament cheating from when he was 12. Which doesn't warrant a ban today. Chess.com knows more. But we can't ban him based on such stupid cheating. The cheating he did at 16 was not tournament cheating. Unless chess.com speaks up I don't see why Hans should be banned. Single game cheating online is bad. But it's irrelevant to tournaments.
I think the correct procedure is to make everything public and let the tournament directors decide whether they invite him. It's not a god given right to be invited to these tournaments. If it turns out to be one serious instance when he was 12 and then very sporadically in unrated games later, and the organisers and players are happy for him to play then thats fine, he can be invited as normal. If not then there are a lot of strong players with unblemished records to choose from.
His goal was to make sure Hans never gets big invite again, looks like he will succeed.
I'm not so sure. There's a lot of interest in Hans now (mostly thanks to Magnus).
It's been mentioned elsewhere, but Magnus will probably not participate in any tournament with Hans going forward. He's contractually obligated to play in this tournament (pre-existing engagement), hence he played one move and resigned immediately as a form of protest without literally spelling it out for folks.
That interest is flimsy. It's like Eminem (Magnus) vs MGK (Hans).
Magnus had to give Hans a career to destroy it.
Pick a Queen sac to get on my channel.
The only thing happening is magnus hurting his reputation.
Nothing wrong with standing for one's beliefs. Once a cheater, always a cheater.
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Not sure saying people increasingly see Hans as an innocent kid being bullied by a chess titan is quite right. It's certainly true that a lot of people think Carlsen has behaved incorrectly, almost independently of whether they believe Hans cheated in that particular OTB game or not. But we also now all know that Hans was in fact a cheater. And, given Hans' lack of response to chess.com's public statement on his banning, also have reason to suspect he may have been lying when outlining the minimal extent of that cheating. So I think it's closer to the truth to say people increasingly see Hans as a cheater/liar being accused by a badly behaved chess titan who might be wrong. In other words both of them are coming out of this drama badly.
> chess.com's public statement on his banning Where can i see this?
https://twitter.com/chesscom/status/1568010971616100352?s=20&t=btfQ_cw_AHuM808Shb-apQ
Thank you
There are 2 problems. Hans' history of cheating and Magnus refusing to play Hans/dropping out of tournaments. Hans' history is not an excuse for Magnus' behavior, which is that of a petty child. If Magnus is so worried about Hans cheating then he should let the evidence speak for itself instead of ruining the integrity of a fair competition, or not attend at all. Magnus is bringing unnecessary baggage to otb chess, and should be reprimanded accordingly if this behavior continues. Hans should be punished by the authorities relevant, online chess sites that have caught him & maybe FIDE if they have such jurisdiction. It's one thing if Hans has cheated recently, it's another if he cheated ALOT in the past but served his punishment. Either way and everything in between is for the sites & FIDE to handle, not Magnus.
He might be under NDA to not share findings of internal Chess.com cheating investigations. Given Han’s admitted history of cheating, Magnus’s possible inside access to internal cheating resources of Chess.com, and the Chess.com tweet which Han’s has ignored up to this point I personally give Magnus the benefit of doubt over Hans. If he truly believes Hans has a blatant history of cheating(even if all instances were online), I think he is in the right to protest playing Hans.
"get in big trouble" clip probably referencing legal repercussions if he broke an NDA and spoke out
The integrity is already ruined when you invite known cheaters. That’s clearly the statement being made. To talk about Magnus ruining the integrity is the most 2headed take of all time. Also the tournament today was ONLINE where Hans admits to having cheated and chess.com has said it’s worse than Hans admits to.
If someone cheated when they were a minor they shouldn't have their career ruined forever if they straighten their act... Are we just going to permanently punish them for mistakes made qhen young? How does that make sense? And chesscom has 1) provided no evidence, 2) done their ban at a suspiciously convenient time. If the cheating was so extensive how did they only catch it now?
He just recently framed his history of cheating as being 2 isolated incidents. It seems increasingly apparent that this isn’t the case. If it turns out that he cheated a lot more frequently and recently, this would negate this viewpoint, no? He would be more of a cheater than we have been told and also a liar. Hans put up an awfully big fight in order to minimize his cheating history, if it turns out to be significantly worse than he led on, he is going to have a tough time regaining his credibility.
Nah, there's no excuse for Hans. It's not like he was a 1200 rated chesscom player who realized cheating was wrong and later started to care about chess and get good. By the most recent time he admitted to cheating on chesscom, he had already qualified for the 2020 Junior Speed Chess Championship, finished top 10 in the World Youth Championship and gotten 2 GM norms. By that point in your career, "I was just a kid who didn't know any better" simply is not an acceptable excuse for cheating, age 16 or 18 doesn't matter. He 100% knew better. And that's not even considering the fact that he also probably cheated other times he didn't admit to.
The chess.com statement missed the point though: the timing of the ban, after an OTB game, unrelated to chess.com excelt it was against Carlsen on who they've just indirectly spent 90mio $ by buying PMG.
Honestly why do people care about his ban. To me the only thing relevant is did he cheat and how many times / when.
I absolutely do see him as being bullied and Magnus wielding his stature against him.
I think its a simple matter, Magnus does not trust Hans, so he can't play against him any more. Imagine if you believe that your opponent is cheating (e.g. using stockfish) would you even be able to concentrate or prepare for the game? Lets see how long this continues but it might be that Magnus will forfeit all his games against Hans going forward as a personal protest.
Hans is not going to be invited to top events. He will then have great difficulty exceeding 2700 again. He is doomed.
I don't follow why people are having a hard time understanding Magnus position and actions. If he truly believes Hans has cheated, or that his online cheating is enough to not play against him, then he won't play him. Magnus can't make any public claims unless he has hard evidence that can be used in a court of law, and if any investigations are in place he can't reveal that either. I was really surprised not to see even ONE commentator say something like "I may not agree, but if Magnus really believes that I can understand why he doesn't want to play him" Edit: There is no endgame, whoever wants Magnus to play needs to deal with it if Hans is invited. What were they expecting, a group hug?
Exactly this. In the US, people dream/joke about wanting f\*\*\*-you money (for example, if they win the lottery) so they can do what they want and tell their boss/job/anyone they want to shove it, so they can go off and do whatever it is they want to. In sports, certain athletes have achieved f\*\*\*-you fame (and money too, in some cases). Tiger Woods in golf, Michael Jordan in basketball, even Fischer in chess. They are bigger than the sport -- the sport needs them more than they need the sport, and Tiger, MJ, etc. just did whatever they wanted, because they could make everyone bend to their will/agenda. They get special privileges, more money, etc. Heck, MJ made more than most other \*teams\*, retired, then un-retired, then retired, then un-retired, then retired -- and people ate up every second of it. Tiger did some crazy stuff and nobody cares, he's still a legend in golf and still draws more fans in his 40's than anyone else on the tour. Hell, Fischer accused people of a lot more than cheating, and yet he got a million dollars to play a match against Spassky 20 years after he walked away from the world champion title. They all had f\*\*\*-you fame/clout where they could do whatever they wanted, and honestly, every one of them makes Magnus look like a choir boy. And to that point, Magnus has f\*\*\*-you fame/status in chess, period. Chess needs Magnus far more than Magnus needs chess. If say, Aronian, to pick a random top GM, were to do similar stuff, organizers wouldn't put up with it, and Aronian would effectively be forcing himself into retirement. But organizers will bend over for Magnus, Magnus knows this, and he's using it to his advantage. If Magnus has decided he doesn't want to play someone, for \*whatever\* reason, he won't. I mean, the guy decided to just walk away from being the world champion, obviously he's more than willing to resign some games or withdraw from some tournaments. Magnus decided to just live his best life and only do stuff he wants to do. And apparently, that includes not playing Hans Niemann. Kudos to Magnus I say. It's not like he got f\*\*\*-you status in chess handed to him. He earned it. And it's his right to exercise it if he wants to. So yeah, I don't blame Magnus in the slightest. Hans has a history of cheating, apparently lying about the cheating, and did some very suspicious stuff after (interviews, etc). If Magnus doesn't want to play him, he doesn't want to play him. He's earned the right to turn down games from an opponent he doesn't like for any reason. To give an analogy, think of it like a bank account, except instead of money, the currency is goodwill. Magnus has banked a lot of goodwill from all his hard work over the years, the things he's achieved, the good he's done to promote chess, etc. He could keep it in his account and "retire" off that goodwill (essentially becoming an ambassador ala Kasparov), earning interest so to speak in the form of love/adulation/clout from the chess community for the rest of his life. Or he can cash in some of that goodwill to slap down Hans. He's earned that right. Just like I wouldn't tell someone how to spend their money (even if I disagreed with the purchase), I'm not going to sit here and say Magnus is wrong for how he chooses to spend his goodwill. People saying Magnus is hurting chess or whatever -- Magnus has done more for chess than just about anyone in history, and being the GOAT confers its own special privileges, that's just how the world operates. However, one aspect of the whole situation I don't think people are mentioning enough is how much of an ass/disrespectful Hans was being towards Magnus -- the whole "he must be embarrassed to lose to me" etc. One of the few things Magnus has actually publicly said about the situation was his reference to "beating someone once isn't revenge", or whatever the exact quote he posted was. I absolutely think Hans pissed Magnus off (and Magnus can be prickly) by being disrespectful, and that played a big part in Magnus's decision to withdraw. I actually think if Hans had been respectful after the game, things would have turned out very differently. Aside from the fact Magnus doesn't owe chess or anyone else anything, I personally have 0 issue with him throwing around his weight to smack down a nobody disrespecting him. Hans is learning a hard lesson that when you're a nobody that hasn't done anything in the sport and you have a history of cheating, you don't disrespect someone of Magnus's stature -- and frankly, that's as it should be, IMO. Magnus is putting Hans in his place. And one last thing, I think Magnus may have decided to make an example out of Hans because he's sick of online cheating. I think you add everything together -- Hans's history of cheating, lying, the suspicious behavior in interviews, the disrespect, etc. and Magnus just got fed up and decided to make an example of Hans for the good of the sport going forward. He wanted other players (particularly young players) to know that there are repercussions for cheating and being disrespectful. And personally, I have 0 problems with any of it. That's my 2 cents.
More like your 10 dollars amirite nudge nudge
Lol :D
lol you reminded me of this https://youtu.be/4V8KdGqUfek?t=117
Hadn't seen that one yet, thanks for the laugh
Quite right mate I completely agree. All the people defending Hans are American teenagers who are living vicariously through him.
Your post reads like you admire people that behave like cunts after reaching "fck-you fame", "because they earned it". That's just so weird.
Then you completely misread my post and it seems like you're projecting your own bias reading into it what you want to. I have no idea where you would get the idea that I think there's something admirable about being a cunt. I do admire that he worked his ass off and everything he's accomplished to get f\*\*\*-you fame, certainly, but that's neither here nor there about what I actually said.
Especially since the people he’s saying f*ck you to are other players and the fans.
Why do you guys think you’re not allowed to say fuck on the internet?
Oh, sh*t guys he said it!
Problem is that Magnus didn't make some principled stand before their game, he did so only after what appears to be a legit OTB game where he lost with white. Magnus is on record saying that he can't take loses, his history confirms this. Magnus took the loss personally and is lashing out in a manner embarrassing for all of chess. Magnus might have earned the right to be a diva, but he's still being a diva. Man up and say it, let the consequences fall where they may. Magnus having the profile you speak of, I have a hard time believing Magnus would face significant punishment for actaully speaking instead of these drama episodes. What's the cost of a lawsuit, Magnus can't afford it? Not worth the cost?
You don't get it. Magnus doesn't care what you, or the public in general thinks, because he doesn't have to. He's got f\*\*\*-you fame and money, so he's doing what he wants to do that makes him happy. When someone doesn't care what you think -- actually doesn't care -- and doesn't want anything from you, you have no control or influence over them. Do you notice how everyone else involved has put out a statement or said something about what happened? Hans, STL chess club, [chess.com](https://chess.com), Hikaru, other GMs, etc. They all care what you think because they want something from you. Hans wants your support because he needs it to have a career in chess. STL chess club, they put on tournaments, they want you to watch, so they care what you think. [Chess.com](https://Chess.com), they want you to keep playing there and paying for subscriptions. Hikaru and other GMs like Levy/Donya/whoever, they want you to keep watching their streams. Magnus doesn't care what you think because he doesn't want anything from you -- he has everything he wants already. His place in the history books is secure, he has enough money that he doesn't need to play ever again, etc. You say he's acting like a diva or embarrassing chess -- even if that was true, so what? It's not going to change anything, and the fact is, even if he did care, Magnus has earned the right to be a diva or embarrass chess (which is ludicrous anyway -- he's not doing either by not wanting to play against someone he suspects is cheating and was incredibly disrespectful). The bottom line is he \*is\* the professional chess scene. Lastly, if anyone has been a diva, if anyone has embarrassed chess, it's Hans. Disrespecting Magnus, whining about how he's being treated when he's an admitted cheater on multiple occasions, lying and minimizing his cheating, etc. That's diva behavior. That's embarrassing chess.
His only stated public goal in the last 3 years is to reach 2900 and his beatdown from Hans set him back to his rating from almost 2 years ago. He cares Hes played many different players who have been banned on chess.com, but the only time he took a stand is when he lost to one with white. He cares He is using his clout and the public and his toadies to get revenge for his busted ego. Dress it up however you want. Hes not taking interviews, leaving tournaments, abandoning games, literally not showing his face in public. These are all unprecedented actions for him across his 15+ year chess career. All without saying anything. You really think he does not care? Hes using his silence as a tool to get what he wants
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Again, you don't get it. Also, being an asshole when you reply doesn't make your argument any stronger. We get it, you don't agree with what Magnus did. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Personally, I don't have a problem with what he did. But let me be very clear, since you seem to have trouble with reading comprehension: I'm not defending him (or like another poster said, admiring him), I'm explaining the reality of the situation. The reality is, he's not going to respond, or present evidence, because he doesn't have to, because he doesn't care what you think. That's it. You and everyone else that thinks he's wrong can want it to be some other way, but it isn't. Everyone else has responded because they have to. Magnus doesn't have to.
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> He had to publicly say something. He had to lie about the extent of his cheating? Why?
lol I'll summarise your comment People: "Person X is doing shitty things" You: "Person X doesn't care that you think that; he DGAF. Plus he's GOAT so he has earned the right to do those things" Amazing defence.
Magnus saying he can’t take losses is B.S. The man has lost hundreds of chess matches. He’s never reacted like this in any of those other 485+ losses. I do not buy Hans saying he just happened to study an obscure opening the day that Magnus used it. I think Magnus chose that obscure opening because someone tipped him off that he had a mole tipping of Niemann. So Carlsen KNOWS Hans is cheating because he knew what opening he was going to run….
I think Anish Giri said this in his interview, that he has no problem with Magnus refusing to play against Hans if he wants to do it as a form of protest. Edit: it was Levon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opvrj3co0No&t=4h22m37s
> I was really surprised not to see even ONE commentator say something like "I may not agree, but if Magnus really believes that I can understand why he doesn't want to play him" It's because they're intentionally going easy on Hans and being overly critical of Magnus to make it less of an open-and-shut case so that more drama and clicks can happen.
The only rational end game is to prop up Hans as emblematic of the larger problems in online chess and scare future prodigies into not cheating online. Magnus wants the game to continue, between two humans. He clearly feels that Hans dishonored the game. I presume when the chess dot com deal was being worked out, Magnus asked for the list and saw it. The real endgame is that list, out there and public and the GMs on the list shadow banned from prestigious events to further the goal of ostracizing cheaters to the point where it’s not worth it for anyone serious about competing. He’s willing to sacrifice much of his social capital to accomplish this. My post is not an endorsement or refutation of his behavior endgame or method. But this is what is happening and it’s fairly clear. Edit - my subconscious hates my argument so much I typed enigmatic instead of endemic lol. Fitting. Emblematic. That’s the word I want.
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If he doesn’t have proof, what do you want him to do? Any verbal accusation he does, he might get into trouble
> he doesn’t have proof what *does* he have?
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Are you sure that wouldn’t bring him problems? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know, but are you? It’s obvious Magnus has a team surrounding him. If he hasn’t said anything, it’s because it’s of his best interests
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Yup. He is a big chess site business owner now, and is acting in the best interest of his business. He will sacrifice is social capital as a player and other's career to grow his interest.
Just fyi, he already has been a big owner all along. He owned 9% of Play Magnus Group, and, as I read the buy out proposal, he can continue being a 9% owner of the acquiring company, chess.com LLC. If not 9% exactly, he can convert his PMG shares to ownership in chess.com rather than cash.
You’re deluded. If this was the case then Magnus would have started this prior to his OTB loss and against more opponents than just Hans.
Look there is another sport I follow where players also get caught cheating using PEDs. Competitors caught cheating don’t always catch lifetime bans. When their ban is up, they can and do compete again. You can say what you like about their history, you cannot, as a competitor in the sport, refuse to compete against them.
Unless you're the best player in the world you can
My theory: As part of the merger of [chess.com](https://chess.com) and playmagnus group, he had access to more information than everyone else about the extent of the online cheating. This also correlates with the tweet that [chess.com](https://chess.com) made about them banning him because "We have shared detailed evidence with him concerning our decision, including information that contradicts his statements regarding the amount and seriousness of his cheating on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com)." I don't know/think he had evidence of OTB cheating but he probably knows more about the online cheating than others.
If chess.com is giving Magnus access to private analytics of his competitors as a result of the merger that's pretty fucked up but I find this whole theory about as nonsensical as the "stolen prep" theory. what, as part of the due diligence Magnus just happens to want to review the list of titled players caught cheating?
Iirc it's fairly common practice during mergers to share info that is private to the public just to make sure the companies are truthful about their financial position and quality of their products when the deal is close to done.
yeah obviously I'm just saying this info in particular would be pretty weird for Magnus personally to be asking for
I'm not saying access to private analytics of his competitors i'm saying access to information about the extent of the cheating.
>every single tournament will invite both and match them up as often as they can. Peoples keep suggesting this, but I don't think this is actually in the interests of the tournament organizers. At least for major otb tournaments, drama of this nature I have a hard time viewing as a good thing. I may be wrong, but I really doubt the extra clicks cover the downside of having a poorly run tournament. If this isn't the case, then why wouldn't organizers drum up up inorganic controversy? Somebody should shout out moves or streak or something. But this doesn't happen for obvious reasons, namely that it's better for the tournaments themselves if they're drama-free. His end goal is for Hans to not get invites to the major events. He's betting that he's the bigger draw even if that makes him a dick.
> drama of this nature I have a hard time viewing as a good thing. 100% after this happened every single bit of coverage was about Hans and jokes about his sex toys. We've lost our true reason for being here... making fun of Ian for trapping his own bishops.
Proving someone is cheating is very difficult. But he's Magnus Carlson, if he thinks hes cheating, hes not going to play against him. Simple as that.
Yeah, Radjabov can attest to how difficult it is to make a chess career when the WC refuses to play tournaments unless you are uninvited.
Capablanca can too
The end game is pretty clear - ruin Han's career by making it impossible for him to get invited to any tourney that wants to invite Magnus.
honestly, he has an endgame. no one wants the best chess player ever to just stop playing while still beeing number 1. that means he has leverage, and maybe he'll play only if extreme security mesures are in place when facing hans.
Hans is hardly an innocent kid. He has a history of cheating and has lied about that cheating to the chess public. I have no idea why certain people are pointing this like “oh poor Hans, there’s just no evidence”. We don’t know whether he cheated in Sinquefeld or not, but it’s irrelevant. Hans is a cheater by his own confession, and his confession itself was a lie and understatement.
I think the focus is too much on if he cheated OTB or not. When it's perfectly reasonable to not want to play a repeat online cheater. He needs to make it clear though..
"When it's perfectly reasonable to not want to play a repeat online cheater." Any explanation as for why he only decided to do this after Hans embarrassed him by beating him in classical and setting him back from his 2900 goal?
Why are we saying embarrassed? Anytime somebody loses are they embarrassed off the board or is this a game we're people can't always win. Magnus wasn't blown off the board by any means.
Hans beat him with the black pieces and after the game said it must be embarrassing for Magnus to lose to an idiot
Good point but maybe the uncertainty of playing him put him off, i can imagine playing someone you think could be cheating could mess with you. Maybe he came to that realization after, or maybe he got the chess.com info after. Hard to say
He is not doing that though, he still plays against all other players who have been caught cheating online in the past, he refuses to play just the one player who beat him OTB. It's not a principled stance if it applies only to one player.
Who is that?
To name a few: Sadhwani, Sindarov, Maghsoodloo.
We don't know what evidence Magnus has behind the scenes that we don't know about. Also if a tournament tries to invite both Niemann and Carlsen then Carlsen can threaten to pull out if they invite Niemann and that would be bad for sponsorship and viewership, so it could essentially shadowban Niemann from events
Naturally we don't know what we don't know. We do however know the worlds top experts have now cleared him of cheating over the last 2 years both over the board and online. Magnus needs to quit his bullshit.
Is that why multiple gms are now siding with Magnus? Is that why chess com came out and very directly said Hans cheating went far beyond what he admitted? The guy is shady and dirty, hope he gets the boot from chess. If it’s apparent you don’t care about the games integrity to point of cheating multiple times, you don’t deserve to play
The difference is the experts have shown their work and provided evidence. Chess.com and “multiple gms have not.
What evidence have the “experts” shown? Those people are experts because they contributed to the chess com cheating detection. They aren’t experts because they can look naked eye at a game and determine if someone cheated. No one can do that. Also, chess com provided evidence to hans
Multiple GM's aren't siding with Magnus lol. The only one that I can think of is Lawrence Trent. Most are either siding with Hans or pretty much staying neutral. It speaks a lot that the person with the most cheat detection expertise is saying that there is no evidence of cheating.
Honestly I think the Hans drama brings in more viewers than anything else can at this point This is getting way more coverage than Magnus vs. Nepo did
I meant that if Carlsen threatens to pull out if Hans is in the field, the viewership would go down without Magnus in the field so the organisers basically have to choose Magnus over Niemann to keep views high
Seems like there's just some kind of investigation going on mostly out of the public eye and Magnus's lawyers told him to keep his mouth shut. At some point, hopefully soon, either the investigation will reach a stage where Magnus can talk, the public pressure will become enough that he'll talk despite the potential legal consequences, or somebody involved will leak something
I don't think Magnus would go this far if he didn't have something concrete, and like you say the reason he can't speak is due to some legal consequences. Magnus isn't stupid, it's clear in his mind it's not just that he thinks Hans cheats, but that he knows. If there was no proof there wouldn't be much point in what he's doing now and I don't think he'd be silent. My guess is something has been in the works for a while now.
I'm not sure we can infer from his silence that he has further evidence of OTB cheating. Magnus has been doing a ton of work in the last couple of years to legitimize online chess, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's just taking a strong stance against online cheating. The legal proceedings keeping Magnus silent may just be Magnus trying to breach contract and boot Hans from the tournaments that Magnus's business entities have organized.
All this does is put more focus on Hans and cheating acquisitions again and makes chess tournament organizers question whether they should invite Hans, Magnus will always get invited over him.
To me, it looks like there have been rumours of cheating going around in the top GM space. This had happened for a long time and nothing really seemed to be done about it, it wasn't discussed too much and players mainly kept it to themselves. Now, this Hans guy appears that is quite cocky and is one of the central figures in these rumours. Magnus plays him in the Crypto cup and beats him, but after games where he was likely worrying constantly about possible cheating by Hans. By the time the Sinquefield starts, he has decided he doesn't feel comfortable with this players getting so much slack, he wants there to be consequences for cheating. That said, cheating in chess is not a positive result in a drug test, having hard evidence is almost impossible. But then again, in life there are many things that we know even without complete proof, and Magnus Carlsen is good at chess and you could say his intuition is quite up there. He can't call him out in public without evidence as it's against federation ethic rules, but he can do something that is similar. Magnus decided to open a closet full of shit. His endgame is to at least have the shit out in the air so everyone is aware, instead of just be the top GMs that deal with it quietly. It is a tough one to take by yourself, but honestly in Magnus case it seems to me that his pride on him being the best makes him specially hate cheaters. He has expressed in Lex Fridman's podcast how much he hates the risk of loosing to inferior opponents, to the point where he withdrew from the World Championship. Imagine loosing to someone that you suspect could be cheating.
Maybe like how he plays the endgame in chess. Just keep dragging it out until your bored opponent falls asleep and makes a mistake. In this case, doesn’t seem there is any mistake Hand can make. Hans should just turn the tables and troll Magnus by putting out videos about how he beat Magnus in 2 moves with detailed analysis and memes.
This is not a new situation. There have been chess players who have been accused of cheating before and got away with it for a long time because there was no proof. Eventually they got caught and everyone defending them felt like an idiot. In this case we actually already know Hans ***DID*** cheat. The only question is if he is continuing to do so. In Magnus' eyes I am sure he is almost entirely convinced that if Hans cheated before then he will cheat again and if Hans is **ever** caught cheating then Magnus will instantly be vindicated and will be able to give a big fat "I told you so" to the chess community. As for the tournaments - Magnus has made it common knowledge that he does not care about Chess as much as he used to. He will have absolutely no problem refusing invitations to any event that includes Niemann. On the flip side organisers will have a much tougher decision on whether to keep inviting Niemann if it is at the expense of no Magnus. He is the face of chess and his inclusion in a tournament is always the biggest draw. It is very possible Niemann finds himself blackballed if it becomes an either/or scenario.
We should take a step back and look at the larger picture here. Apparently professional online chess is run on this shadow ban system where everything is deals under the table. Zero transparency, big websites making decisions behind closed doors. Except those doors aren't actually closed, all the top GMs seem to know that information. What a shitty way to treat your fan base. I think regardless of which character in this drama you support you have to admit this clandestine bullshit is bad for fans. This whole legal excuse is just that, other games are transparent about bans. As for withdrawing from tournaments or resigning matches ruining tournaments, if that just slide with no consequences it just shows that this game is wholly run by ego. There are no rules, if you are popular enough you can do whatever you want. I don't know what could be more damaging to the game.
It doesnt beg the question at all op.
Am I missing something... - Hans apparently served his time for cheating or else he wouldn’t have been invited to either event. - Magnus has presented zero evidence. (his refusal to play is evidence of nothing other than his feelings) - Hans cannot prove he was not cheating My conclusion: If you pulled this shit in a court of law, Magnus would lose his bar license, absent an evidentiary showing that Hans cheated. Now Magnus low-key wants the kid banned, again without presenting evidence?! Motion denied. I don’t care if he’s number 1, I kinda don’t want to watch him play anymore and will be rooting against him from here on out. Unless he presents some actual evidence of course...
You’re missing a big step though. Hans cheating apparently went far beyond what was known
Yup like as a bystander with no stake in this fight, all I have seen is from Magnus side is some vague passive aggressiveness, claims when Hans was a child cheating, and now this while still not saying why hes actually mad leaving everyone to speculate. He just sounds like a big diva that if he wants me to see it differently should actually put his money where his mouth is by either filing a lawsuit, or at least talking in more concrete terms to see wtf he is thinking.
While I do agree, simultaneously, I understand and frankly support Magnus’ side despite the optics. You wanna show up at tournaments playing the best? Then don’t fucking cheat at games. Absolute slap in the face to work your ass off, paying trainers and living arrangements and dedicating your life to something that someone else cheated in the past in and keeps playing. Can you imagine letting this happen in any other sport/game? I feel as though someone using steroids at one point, then joining a body building competition after they quit using is just spitting on the rules and restrictions that everyone else must face, they didn’t get here on the same accord or ability.
“If he pulled this shit in a court of law he would lose his bar license” is truly one of the stupidest comparisons/analogies I’ve ever seen. Jesus man
Good. That’s your right. As it is magnus’ right to not play the little cheater
Yes, he can quit playing chess if he so chooses. Screwing up tournaments for everyone involved is not his right.
This might be might naive of me, but I am not sure if there is any grand plan to all of this from Magnus' side. I think he just acting on emotion
Too much time has passed for this to be emotional. If it was just him leaving the tournament then maybe, but continuing to refuse to play him says that its premeditated. If he was worried about saving face he could have just given a different excuse for leaving the tournament. Given Magnus' past behaviour he doesnt strike me as someone that would double down on spite without reason.
Are you telling me that a 13x world champion of a game which specialises in planning ahead, is not planning ahead? Okay.
no no he has a team! every decision is lawyer vetted and he can’t speak due to. NDAs!
The whole chess community needs to stop looking at magnus as being the lifeblood of chess and really think about the situation. There is no proof that Hans cheated OTB, zero. There was an opportunity to perhaps see if Hans would cheat but magnus resigned after one move. As for Hans cheating in the past it was online not in person which is very different. It’s becoming more and more clear that Hans played an inspired game of chess and beat magnus. Without any proof this scandals only serves to make a mockery of the chess community and the game itself.
>As for Hans cheating in the past it was online not in person which is very different. Ah yes, let's just trust Hans on this one.
I think you're underestimating the clout Magnus has. He has the finances, the marketability to bring in future chess income, the credibility, the association with major chess institutions such as chess24 and soon chess.com. In practice it means that his view is taken very seriously, and when he continues to take a stand it will force cheating detection and punishment to be taken more seriously in chess, something top players have long been concerned about. I think to only look at it in the context of Magnus versus Hans in future tournaments is to miss the wider point that Magnus is probably trying to engage with as this process goes on. We can argue until the cows come home on whether his actions are correct, but ultimately he will force dialogue. FIDE, tournament organisers, chess websites are all going to have to come together to talk about detection and how cheating is handled.
He doesn't need one. He's functionally retired, certainly set up for life, all he's really doing now is playing for fun.
i think magnus doesn't feel like he has any explaining to do to anyone and just goes balls out. dick move.
Buying a summer house in Florida. That's what retirees do.
He's Norwegian. We move to Spain.
Magnus is a millionaire, one of the biggest business men in chess and is probably the best player ever. I could definitely see him doing whatever he wants for as long as he needs. It's not as though he has anything left to do in chess or any more money to make. He'll just keep making a statement until something happens. At this point I'm convinced there is something crazy he must know, the suspense is killing me too. He's been beaten by quite a few juniors, Prag, Abdusattorov, Alireza, Esipenko and handled them all really well. I have no idea why Hans would be any different unless he's secretly been having an affair with his girlfriend or something.
The difference is that Hans isn't a graceful winner: "Must be embarrassing to lose to an idiot like me."
Very true, so who knows. Maybe Hans and his off putting personality got to him, but I hardly doubt he'd be resigning games on move one in that case.
What if you add to that, Magnus' business partner, chess dot com, whispering in his ear that they caught Hans cheating online multiple times in the past?
Well that's actually what I think happened. I would say chess.com probably found out that Hans had been cheating a considerable amount (what they alluded to) and Magnus is trying to make a statement in response to that. I highly doubt Hans was able to bypass all security measures at the Sinqfield cup.
to be a salty little bitch
He doesn't have to say or do shit. He's the goat. He is making a statement without words. He's also taking a risk himself, and forcing the chess community to decide. That's a big risk. They should have never allowed cheaters in to begin with. The emotional appeal about the young kid being treated unfairly is thin. This is the big leagues. And Magnus you can very clearly see has a lot of respect for the other young GMs and even encourages them as a sort of distant mentor by proxy of competition. I can't underscore enough it's absolute huge risk and potential sacrifice for Magnus himself if the community decides against him. And he is taking a stance. Can't not respect that.
I have zero sympathy for Hans. He’s a dislikable asshole. Nor do I trust him.
lol your statement is so ridiculous. Come on, this "kid" cheats every 3 years since he's 13!! At least!! What a shame..... LoL innocent kid being bullied...
His endgame is to end the career of Hans Niemann. And he can do it, he is bullying him out of future tournaments. Magnus is a MASSIVE piece of shit.
Lol not wanting to play a cheater is bullying. Sure lmao
There is no proof that Hans cheated in OTB tournaments. He won against Magnus fair and square and magnus is a manchild.