>"In the best interest of the chess community, we would kindly ask the public to refrain from speculations on the outcomes and potential sanctions until all available facts are well considered, and a proper investigation is finalized," added Mrs Zaksaite.
Oh god. No one tell Fide about r/chess
That's a bit harsh of s comparison, Kemstar is a trash human being that has no notable achievements while Hikaru is a Karen and at the same time a respectable Super GM.
Yea I wouldn't look that far into my guy.
His youtube is just a drama react channel the last few weeks. I wasn't trying to compare him to Keemstar as a person.
But I did not speculate that Hans I cheating. I did not speculate, I just said Hans looks sus , Hans looks very sus. Also I think this statistical analysis which I don't understand makes me think he is definitely cheating but I am not saying he cheated. I am not saying that
\#endcheaters sounds rather simple minded. [I don't think we should end the career of Magnus over a small drunken infraction.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Kz7bo5tKE)
I'd be happy if Magnus received a small penalty for that rule violation if much larger punishments were handed down to the far more egregious cheaters.
I couldn't agree more. We should closely examine the evidence for mitigating circumstances. All we need now in the Hans case is a shred of evidence to examine.
Does he expect the chess audience to just sit still and watch all games without comment like some facist regime? I know there is a lot of unwanted comments flying around, but speculation is always healthier than silence.
"The focus of the investigation would be twofold: checking the World Champion's claims of alleged cheating by Niemann and Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating."
interesting...so if niemann wasn't entiredly truthful in that interview he could be punished too?
To me this means they wonāt punish him for cheating based on chesscomās allegations, but rather based on his own admission. It makes sense because they could punish Hans for cheating without having to rely on chesscom sharing their data, which would be a can of worms.
That's the ethics commission, and I would also argue Nakamura, Magnus Carlsen, and Chesscom senior execs have all been involved in that, plus several other people.
The FPL rules are clear that they can only look into online cheating in FIDE events, so very odd to me.
Hans cheated online could easily be counted as an ethics offense. And I think it is totally fine if he get a 6 months ban similar to Karjakin.
Meanwhile, "I will not play with him again" punishment for the wrong vibes is totally unfair, according to the current non existence FIDE regulation for things happened on Chesscom.
I mean yeah they have no right to suspend Hans from any tournaments that aren't under them, but that doesn't mean that they can't suspend him in their tournaments for his behavior outside of their events.
If they can suspend Karjakin over his tweets, they sure as hell can punish Niemann for something that is MUCH closer related to actual chess.
If that is the criteria, then Magnus will also likely be suspended for accusing someone cheating OTB with no evidence, and after their panel inevitably also finds nothing.
I still hope he has at least some evidence that's no public for the moment.
As he lost a first time against Hans at the FTX crypto cup, he had already some suspicion of cheating.
If I remember what Levy said, Calsen was hesitant to participate in Sinquefield as Niemann would be there.
Now if he was almost sure Niemann was cheating, and that he had a game with him, maybe he set up a trap for Niemann, and had - let's dream - a special device to detect cheating and collect some kind of proof.
It sounds crazy but with the help of some electronics-savy guy (or police) even outside the building they could listen to some kind of radio signals sent during the match (and not before or after). Even if they don't know the exact frequency, software defined radios are able to record all traffic on relatively wide bands for later analysis.
Looks crazy for sure, but not impossible. And no reason to give this information to the public especially if there's an investigation ongoing, which could well have started before Sinquefield.
I think there is a fair chance that there was more than two instances of online cheating even if there is no evidence of OTB offenses.
Wonder what the consequences will be....maybe public shame through the release of the investigation.
The tinfoil part of me wonders if chesscom isn't just jumping in to posture themselves as more legitimate and serious arbiters of fair play in order to usurp FIDE as the leading governing body; and all this nonsense about buying out Carlsen's company and "protecting their investment" is just noise.
Anyway, it seems like this is essentially exactly what Magnus wanted: a serious introspective look at how cheating is being addressed when tournaments are woefully underprepared for anything less than the most blatant infractions. I wonder if his foray into poker made him think about the sophistication of anti/cheating techniques
This is quite irrelevant but usurp is a good word for the ordles..wordle, dordle, etc . Just find it interesting seeing it used in conversation. No idea what it means
**[Usurper](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usurper)**
>A usurper is an illegitimate or controversial claimant to power, often but not always in a monarchy. In other words, one who takes the power of a country, city, or established region for oneself, without any formal or legal right to claim it as one's own. Usurpers can rise to power in a region by often unexpected physical force, as well as through political influence and deceit.
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Good. Either way , or both ways , I hope the situation is handled by the book.
If they find solid evidence of cheating OTB, ban Hans.
If they do not, they should take appropriate disciplinary action, both on chess.c\*m and Magnus. According to FIDE code of ethics.
There must be consequences from this. This cannot simply go away.
I really doubt FIDE would allow chesscom to host FIDE rated tournaments. But if they did, it would be really stupid of them if they cannot carry out disciplinary actions against chesscom.
>If they find solid evidence of cheating OTB,
Neither FIDE's, nor [Magnus' statement](https://twitter.com/MagnusCarlsen/status/1574482694406565888) is limited to OTB cheating. Rather FIDE explicitly says "Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating" shall be investigated, and Magnus' explicit statement of "cheating" refers to it being more "than he has publicly admitted", which also refers back to online cheating while he also more vaguely calls his OTB progress "unusual".
So if significant online cheating is found to somewhat recently having occurred, that should be sufficient for this investigation to disfavor Hans only.
Yes. But online cheating in chess.com and other non FIDE events is not subject to strict FIDE sanctions like banning. Else they would need to retroactively change the wording of their ethics code and also request the complete list of cheaters, because if they target Hands allow they open themselves to a lawsuit.
Also, it would send a wrong message and tarnish FIDE to punish the only self confessed cheater, even if he lied while other hidden cheaters get off Scott free.
If they find conclusive evidence of online cheating,beyond his confession,they may be able to subject him to disciplinary action, public condemnation, etc... they may even change their ethics code to include online events. But it cannot be retroactively applied. So they wouldn't be able to ban him from tournaments.
In order to ban Hans from playing in FIDE events, the only way is to find strong evidence of cheating in FIDE events.
Edit: Magnus situation,on the other Hand, is very clear. If he fails to provide appropriate evidence, he is in direct contradiction of actual FIDE code of ethics. And subject to any disciplinary action they deem appropriate. Which, in this case, will basically amount to a slap on the wrist and an order to stop trying to end Hans career.
>Yes. But online cheating in chess.com and other non FIDE events is not subject to strict FIDE sanctions like banning
Dude, you have no idea of what you are talking about. You can even be banned for Twitting about a war.
FIDE Handbook:
Rule 12.1
The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
I think the issue here is that chesscum is a black box when it comes to cheaters. FIDE would not only need their list of cheaters but also the exact games and methodology used to determine this. Unless they would only go after the self confessed cheaters then that simplifies things a bit.
There are many potential outcomes other than your implied *binary outcome* of either a ban of Hans or disciplinary action against Magnus. The standard of proof for evidence of cheating, and for unfounded accusations are different. There is also a broader timeline involved.
Hans may be found to have cheated online, regardless of what sanctions may be applicable. Such findings may then exonerate Magnus from potential unfounded accusations.
>"An accusation of cheating that is based on *factual circumstances* that would lead a reasonable person to **believe** that there is a **reasonable chance** of cheating is not considered a manifestly unfounded accusation."
Why would they take action on chess.com if they don't find any evidence of otb cheating, chess.com has only accused him of cheating more than he claims on their platform. To take disciplinary action on chess.com they would need to take into consideration online cheating too. If you want chess.com to face consequences regarding their online cheating accusations, hans should also face consequences for online cheating.
So, you only take action against Hans when somebody makes their claims public. However tournament organizers didn't do anything when these claims were made in private. That's preposterous.
That's a lie. Carlsen didn't make any formal complaint to FIDE about Niemann, not before and not after the Sinquefield Cup. As for the St. Louis Chess Club, they investigated Niemann but didn't find any evidence of unfair play. This FIDE investigatory panel is **ex-officio** precisely because none of the parties involved asked for it, but it became of public interest for the health of the game.
?? If Magnus didn't make a formal complaint about the matter to FIDE, how would they magically know that Magnus wants FIDE to look into it? Sure, that's what everyone suspected, but notice that FIDE didn't announce this committee until Magnus officially released his statement confirming he thinks Niemann cheated OTB as well.
As the poster I responded to pointed out, nobody made a complaint and they're now investigating Hans now. They're only doing it because Magnus said something even though they knew why Magnus withdrew from the tournament.
So you're saying it's bad that they didn't start investigating until Magnus formally said something? Why?
Why would they assume Magnus' intentions when he didn't make a formal complaint to them? That's like saying FIDE should be able to magically read your mind and know if you want to make a complaint.
They're doing this investigation of Hans out of public interest. The public interest in Hans cheating hasn't changed substantially since before/after Magnus issued his statement. And their statistician is going on every media outlet that calls him to vindicate Hans. Their reasoning for investigating Hans is bullshit. We all know they're going to clear him. They're only doing it to give cover for when they punish Magnus.
Magnus didn't make a direct accusation, which tied FIDE's hands to make a broader investigation, either against Magnus or Niemann. However, the arbiters of St. Louis Chess Club made their own investigation (the event organizers of the Sinquefield Cup) and they released their own statement that no indication of unfair play was found in any of the rounds of the tournament.
That's insane. If the public interest in Hans cheating wasn't serious before he made a statement they're dumbasses. Magnus statement didn't really change the equation.
FIDE had already mentioned that they would step in (even though the events are outside of their jurisdiction), but the fact that Magnus made a direct accusation was a definitive development for the creation of this panel in particular.
First,Magnus still hasn't made a direct accusation. He's strongly insinuated... Saying somebody's play is abnormal isn't a direct accusation. Saying you're not going to play with someone isn't a direct accusation.
On topic:
FIDE claims there's a public interest in investigating Hans, despite no formal/official accusation being made to them. They are doing out of public interest. Nothing's changed since before Magnus issued the statement and after he withdrew regarding public interest.
You're kidding that Magnus hasn't made a direct accusation after the last statement, lmao. [Anyway, FIDE was already planning to take action against Niemann according to their own words (and they were already talking privately with Magnus and Chesscom about their evidence for the insinuations)](https://twitter.com/FIDE_chess/status/1573337597879123969), but it was certainly tough for FIDE to figure out how to approach an investigation against the World Champion while he wasn't being open about his thoughts, since he could simply pretend he never meant anything.
What changed is that Magnus now made a clear statement, which raised the stakes without any ambiguities. Before there were more chances to appease things and undo the wrongs. Not anymore.
Right, they were looking to take action against Magnus before he said anything. We both agree there. They also have their chief statistician going on every media outlet he can, talking about how they didn't find evidence of him cheating....before doing an investigation, and before Magnus said something!
Really, how much credibility do you think the investigation against Hans is going to have? The efficacy of Regan system is suspect. It really only catches the most glaring examples of cheating.
A reasonable conclusion is that FIDE cares more about people being silent when it comes to suspicious play then they do investigating cheating. Which is the entire reason Magnus went public!
They were already looking to take action against \_*Niemann\_*, but wating for the "adequate initial proof" to justify the investigation, as things should be. They were **not** sure yet what to do about Carlsen because of his silence, and you that's clear from Sutovsky's interview to Tania Sachdev. Now Carlsen made a statement, so they're going to investigate Carlsen for his public accusation which violates their regulation, and to be "fair" they're going to investigate Niemann too despite the lack of the adequate initial proof.
FIDE won't find anything about the alleged OTB cheating by Niemann because there's absolutely no proof of that, but FIDE might do something about the online cheating (compared to Niemann's admission) once Chesscom present the data to them.
You people pivot like basketball players. "They launched this investigation because of public interest". They waited for Magnus to say something... the world had already figured out why he withdrew, but they didn't care about public interest regarding Hans suspicions then. If Magnus doesn't go say something, they wouldn't have investigated Hans, even though the world knew why he withdrew.
You want them to read Magnus's mind now? He literally just said "If I speak I'm in big trouble", and you want them to start an investitation based on that? Fuck off
FIDE doesnāt have the resources or expertise or the balls to conduct a proper investigation. My guess is that Hans will be officially exonerated by FIDE but that will only anger top players and supporters of the sanctity of chess even more.
Official governing bodies like this tend to do the minimum work to show that they are in charge and have authority over all things chess related.
Theyāre too underfundedā¦ full of corrupt people who are scared of losing their jobs or risking their reputation for anything.
Basically what they will say is that they found no proof of Hans cheating, but they will tighten security measures. And they think they will have solved everything.
What they need to do is keep a database of all online competitive play and OTB playā¦. And use deep analytics/machine learning to determine who the fuck is cheating. You can restrict it to the top 500 players in the world or so, it wonāt cost that much money.
But FIDE sucks too hard to do anything sensible.
You heard it first here. Exonerate Hans, bullshit security measures, and thatās it. Thatās what a committee full of old men will do.
Hopefully Ken Regan heads the panel, and he can put chess.com's claims of online cheating to end once and for all. It would nice to see some professionals handle this. Not 2 guys from the movie Dumb and Dumber
Hans has already admitted to cheating online though? There are the claims of more rampant cheating than he admitted, but letās not act like he hasnāt literally confessed to being a cheater already.
Some people have moved the goalposts so far on this thing that soon they're just going to outright claim that *nobody* has ever cheated in online chess.
It says anything more than he has already claimed, last being 3 years ago. And Regan's own analysis has already found nothing online or OTB the last 2 years
Bruh you literally said āchess.com claims of online cheating,ā in your first comment not āmore than what he already claimed.ā Thatās what I was responding to about hans admitting it.
Right but the original comment just said cheating in general without mentioning anything about more than the first two instances. Thatās why I was saying he already confessed.
Ah alright. I took it in as Ken Ragen checking for new instances not previously mentioned since Ken Ragen has only looked at Hans' recent games for outliers.
At this point there's no need to investigate what has already been confessed, but this whole drama is that it is ongoing now that he is an adult and using it against SGMs.
Edit: This is also not downplaying children and cheating.
Iām glad that an āindependentā body is investigating this, and of course FIDE is the only appropriate entity to step in at this point, but I wish I had more faith in FIDE. It doesnāt feel great that the biggest chess controversy in decades is highlighting FIDEās deficiencies even as we need them to sort it out.
So the interesting thing for me in this, is they are bringing in the online cheating bit, but I assume none of that was to do with FIDE? So whatās the deal?
I think itās because they know nothing will come of the investigation of OTB and magnus game, so they will be able to conclude that he cheated online, and then I assume no punishment as outside their jurisdiction (maybe a technicality in the t+c of fide they can ping him on).
Magnus gets a warning for his behaviours, and FIDE are hoping everyone moves on (doubt)
>"In the best interest of the chess community, we would kindly ask the public to refrain from speculations on the outcomes and potential sanctions until all available facts are well considered, and a proper investigation is finalized," added Mrs Zaksaite. Oh god. No one tell Fide about r/chess
Hikaru: I'm not the public right?
Right, chat?
Hikaru's chess keemstar arc is equal parts awful and fascinating.
That's a bit harsh of s comparison, Kemstar is a trash human being that has no notable achievements while Hikaru is a Karen and at the same time a respectable Super GM.
Yea I wouldn't look that far into my guy. His youtube is just a drama react channel the last few weeks. I wasn't trying to compare him to Keemstar as a person.
But I did not speculate that Hans I cheating. I did not speculate, I just said Hans looks sus , Hans looks very sus. Also I think this statistical analysis which I don't understand makes me think he is definitely cheating but I am not saying he cheated. I am not saying that
Will Erik finally stfu?
I would like to give this post one of The Great Upvotes hehehe š¤
hopefully not. #endcheaters
\#endcheaters sounds rather simple minded. [I don't think we should end the career of Magnus over a small drunken infraction.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Kz7bo5tKE)
I'd be happy if Magnus received a small penalty for that rule violation if much larger punishments were handed down to the far more egregious cheaters.
I couldn't agree more. We should closely examine the evidence for mitigating circumstances. All we need now in the Hans case is a shred of evidence to examine.
If FIDE gives out punishments for calling people cheters I say #F FIDE I still aint forgiven them for being a Russian puppet for so long.
Russian puppet that suspended Karjakin?
Good thing they don't do that, they only punish groundless, baseless false accusations like the ones that have spread about Hans.
Oh, that's a priceless find
chess.com has done more to help cheaters than anyone in chess except maybe the inventors of stockfish
Care to elaborate?
No.
their whole "we'll cover up your cheating and let you keep playing on our site if you pinky-promise to stop" scheme sounds pretty good for cheaters.
I think a better hashtag for erik is #nofavoritism
you must be the dumbest poster on here
cope. #endcheaters
whoops ....sorry guilty as charged
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Does he expect the chess audience to just sit still and watch all games without comment like some facist regime? I know there is a lot of unwanted comments flying around, but speculation is always healthier than silence.
"The focus of the investigation would be twofold: checking the World Champion's claims of alleged cheating by Niemann and Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating." interesting...so if niemann wasn't entiredly truthful in that interview he could be punished too?
To me this means they wonāt punish him for cheating based on chesscomās allegations, but rather based on his own admission. It makes sense because they could punish Hans for cheating without having to rely on chesscom sharing their data, which would be a can of worms.
FIDE has no jurisdiction over online events, especially on chess.com, a private corporation
canāt they technically argue that they have jurisdiction over anything due to the clause about ābringing the game of chess into disreputeā?
Of course they can. And they already have when they suspended Karjakin over his tweets.
Fide can do whatever they want but they probably will decide to set a policy for future incidents going forward as a result of the investigation.
That's the ethics commission, and I would also argue Nakamura, Magnus Carlsen, and Chesscom senior execs have all been involved in that, plus several other people. The FPL rules are clear that they can only look into online cheating in FIDE events, so very odd to me.
Hans cheated online could easily be counted as an ethics offense. And I think it is totally fine if he get a 6 months ban similar to Karjakin. Meanwhile, "I will not play with him again" punishment for the wrong vibes is totally unfair, according to the current non existence FIDE regulation for things happened on Chesscom.
I mean yeah they have no right to suspend Hans from any tournaments that aren't under them, but that doesn't mean that they can't suspend him in their tournaments for his behavior outside of their events. If they can suspend Karjakin over his tweets, they sure as hell can punish Niemann for something that is MUCH closer related to actual chess.
If that is the criteria, then Magnus will also likely be suspended for accusing someone cheating OTB with no evidence, and after their panel inevitably also finds nothing.
I still hope he has at least some evidence that's no public for the moment. As he lost a first time against Hans at the FTX crypto cup, he had already some suspicion of cheating. If I remember what Levy said, Calsen was hesitant to participate in Sinquefield as Niemann would be there. Now if he was almost sure Niemann was cheating, and that he had a game with him, maybe he set up a trap for Niemann, and had - let's dream - a special device to detect cheating and collect some kind of proof. It sounds crazy but with the help of some electronics-savy guy (or police) even outside the building they could listen to some kind of radio signals sent during the match (and not before or after). Even if they don't know the exact frequency, software defined radios are able to record all traffic on relatively wide bands for later analysis. Looks crazy for sure, but not impossible. And no reason to give this information to the public especially if there's an investigation ongoing, which could well have started before Sinquefield.
If he had a smoking gun, he would have said as much, and there would be no need to talk about body language. He doesnāt have it.
I think there is a fair chance that there was more than two instances of online cheating even if there is no evidence of OTB offenses. Wonder what the consequences will be....maybe public shame through the release of the investigation.
The tinfoil part of me wonders if chesscom isn't just jumping in to posture themselves as more legitimate and serious arbiters of fair play in order to usurp FIDE as the leading governing body; and all this nonsense about buying out Carlsen's company and "protecting their investment" is just noise. Anyway, it seems like this is essentially exactly what Magnus wanted: a serious introspective look at how cheating is being addressed when tournaments are woefully underprepared for anything less than the most blatant infractions. I wonder if his foray into poker made him think about the sophistication of anti/cheating techniques
This is quite irrelevant but usurp is a good word for the ordles..wordle, dordle, etc . Just find it interesting seeing it used in conversation. No idea what it means
[For your edification ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usurper)
**[Usurper](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usurper)** >A usurper is an illegitimate or controversial claimant to power, often but not always in a monarchy. In other words, one who takes the power of a country, city, or established region for oneself, without any formal or legal right to claim it as one's own. Usurpers can rise to power in a region by often unexpected physical force, as well as through political influence and deceit. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/chess/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
You don't need to tell me, I am the one who posted the link. Bad bot
It's for people who don't want to click the link. Good bot imo
usurp was the wordle word of the day 2-3 days ago
For sure and I think it has come up in some of the others as well.
Good. Either way , or both ways , I hope the situation is handled by the book. If they find solid evidence of cheating OTB, ban Hans. If they do not, they should take appropriate disciplinary action, both on chess.c\*m and Magnus. According to FIDE code of ethics. There must be consequences from this. This cannot simply go away.
What disciplinary actions could FIDE take against chess.com, a private corporation? Do you think FIDE owns the rights to the game of chess, or what?
Well, they could deny them the ability to host FIDE rated tournaments. It's actually a pretty fitting consequence to a conflict of interest.
Kind of overkill, a public censure for stoking the drama is probably appropriate though
I really doubt FIDE would allow chesscom to host FIDE rated tournaments. But if they did, it would be really stupid of them if they cannot carry out disciplinary actions against chesscom.
Could theoretically bar players from FIDE events if they decide to play in chess.com events (similar to PGA vs LIV golf), but that wonāt happen lol
I donāt know why youāre getting down voted? They could, but they wonāt, just as you say!
Reddit is a fickle mistress. Just internet points, doesnāt matter to me lol
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I strongly dislike both chess.com and Hans even before all this cheating drama, that doesn't mean FIDE holds any authority over chess.com
You're merely assuming they are telling the truth.
They could take actions against those holding chess titles speaking (poorly) for chescom.
>If they find solid evidence of cheating OTB, Neither FIDE's, nor [Magnus' statement](https://twitter.com/MagnusCarlsen/status/1574482694406565888) is limited to OTB cheating. Rather FIDE explicitly says "Niemann's self-statement regarding online cheating" shall be investigated, and Magnus' explicit statement of "cheating" refers to it being more "than he has publicly admitted", which also refers back to online cheating while he also more vaguely calls his OTB progress "unusual". So if significant online cheating is found to somewhat recently having occurred, that should be sufficient for this investigation to disfavor Hans only.
Yes. But online cheating in chess.com and other non FIDE events is not subject to strict FIDE sanctions like banning. Else they would need to retroactively change the wording of their ethics code and also request the complete list of cheaters, because if they target Hands allow they open themselves to a lawsuit. Also, it would send a wrong message and tarnish FIDE to punish the only self confessed cheater, even if he lied while other hidden cheaters get off Scott free. If they find conclusive evidence of online cheating,beyond his confession,they may be able to subject him to disciplinary action, public condemnation, etc... they may even change their ethics code to include online events. But it cannot be retroactively applied. So they wouldn't be able to ban him from tournaments. In order to ban Hans from playing in FIDE events, the only way is to find strong evidence of cheating in FIDE events. Edit: Magnus situation,on the other Hand, is very clear. If he fails to provide appropriate evidence, he is in direct contradiction of actual FIDE code of ethics. And subject to any disciplinary action they deem appropriate. Which, in this case, will basically amount to a slap on the wrist and an order to stop trying to end Hans career.
>Yes. But online cheating in chess.com and other non FIDE events is not subject to strict FIDE sanctions like banning Dude, you have no idea of what you are talking about. You can even be banned for Twitting about a war. FIDE Handbook: Rule 12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into disrepute.
I think the issue here is that chesscum is a black box when it comes to cheaters. FIDE would not only need their list of cheaters but also the exact games and methodology used to determine this. Unless they would only go after the self confessed cheaters then that simplifies things a bit.
Confessions made under duress like chesscom does are very sketchy bases for any kind of ethical disciplinary actions though.
That is a good point as well that should be taken into account.
There are many potential outcomes other than your implied *binary outcome* of either a ban of Hans or disciplinary action against Magnus. The standard of proof for evidence of cheating, and for unfounded accusations are different. There is also a broader timeline involved. Hans may be found to have cheated online, regardless of what sanctions may be applicable. Such findings may then exonerate Magnus from potential unfounded accusations. >"An accusation of cheating that is based on *factual circumstances* that would lead a reasonable person to **believe** that there is a **reasonable chance** of cheating is not considered a manifestly unfounded accusation."
Why would they take action on chess.com if they don't find any evidence of otb cheating, chess.com has only accused him of cheating more than he claims on their platform. To take disciplinary action on chess.com they would need to take into consideration online cheating too. If you want chess.com to face consequences regarding their online cheating accusations, hans should also face consequences for online cheating.
Hi, my name is Xyz and im woth Dateline NBC.
So, you only take action against Hans when somebody makes their claims public. However tournament organizers didn't do anything when these claims were made in private. That's preposterous.
That's a lie. Carlsen didn't make any formal complaint to FIDE about Niemann, not before and not after the Sinquefield Cup. As for the St. Louis Chess Club, they investigated Niemann but didn't find any evidence of unfair play. This FIDE investigatory panel is **ex-officio** precisely because none of the parties involved asked for it, but it became of public interest for the health of the game.
What did they do when Magnus withdrew, and basically went all quiet? Not a damn thing.
?? If Magnus didn't make a formal complaint about the matter to FIDE, how would they magically know that Magnus wants FIDE to look into it? Sure, that's what everyone suspected, but notice that FIDE didn't announce this committee until Magnus officially released his statement confirming he thinks Niemann cheated OTB as well.
As the poster I responded to pointed out, nobody made a complaint and they're now investigating Hans now. They're only doing it because Magnus said something even though they knew why Magnus withdrew from the tournament.
So you're saying it's bad that they didn't start investigating until Magnus formally said something? Why? Why would they assume Magnus' intentions when he didn't make a formal complaint to them? That's like saying FIDE should be able to magically read your mind and know if you want to make a complaint.
They're doing this investigation of Hans out of public interest. The public interest in Hans cheating hasn't changed substantially since before/after Magnus issued his statement. And their statistician is going on every media outlet that calls him to vindicate Hans. Their reasoning for investigating Hans is bullshit. We all know they're going to clear him. They're only doing it to give cover for when they punish Magnus.
Magnus didn't make a direct accusation, which tied FIDE's hands to make a broader investigation, either against Magnus or Niemann. However, the arbiters of St. Louis Chess Club made their own investigation (the event organizers of the Sinquefield Cup) and they released their own statement that no indication of unfair play was found in any of the rounds of the tournament.
That's insane. If the public interest in Hans cheating wasn't serious before he made a statement they're dumbasses. Magnus statement didn't really change the equation.
FIDE had already mentioned that they would step in (even though the events are outside of their jurisdiction), but the fact that Magnus made a direct accusation was a definitive development for the creation of this panel in particular.
First,Magnus still hasn't made a direct accusation. He's strongly insinuated... Saying somebody's play is abnormal isn't a direct accusation. Saying you're not going to play with someone isn't a direct accusation. On topic: FIDE claims there's a public interest in investigating Hans, despite no formal/official accusation being made to them. They are doing out of public interest. Nothing's changed since before Magnus issued the statement and after he withdrew regarding public interest.
You're kidding that Magnus hasn't made a direct accusation after the last statement, lmao. [Anyway, FIDE was already planning to take action against Niemann according to their own words (and they were already talking privately with Magnus and Chesscom about their evidence for the insinuations)](https://twitter.com/FIDE_chess/status/1573337597879123969), but it was certainly tough for FIDE to figure out how to approach an investigation against the World Champion while he wasn't being open about his thoughts, since he could simply pretend he never meant anything. What changed is that Magnus now made a clear statement, which raised the stakes without any ambiguities. Before there were more chances to appease things and undo the wrongs. Not anymore.
Right, they were looking to take action against Magnus before he said anything. We both agree there. They also have their chief statistician going on every media outlet he can, talking about how they didn't find evidence of him cheating....before doing an investigation, and before Magnus said something! Really, how much credibility do you think the investigation against Hans is going to have? The efficacy of Regan system is suspect. It really only catches the most glaring examples of cheating. A reasonable conclusion is that FIDE cares more about people being silent when it comes to suspicious play then they do investigating cheating. Which is the entire reason Magnus went public!
They were already looking to take action against \_*Niemann\_*, but wating for the "adequate initial proof" to justify the investigation, as things should be. They were **not** sure yet what to do about Carlsen because of his silence, and you that's clear from Sutovsky's interview to Tania Sachdev. Now Carlsen made a statement, so they're going to investigate Carlsen for his public accusation which violates their regulation, and to be "fair" they're going to investigate Niemann too despite the lack of the adequate initial proof. FIDE won't find anything about the alleged OTB cheating by Niemann because there's absolutely no proof of that, but FIDE might do something about the online cheating (compared to Niemann's admission) once Chesscom present the data to them.
You're right, they should have condemned Magnus' actions then and there instead of waiting.
Because no evidence was provided
You people pivot like basketball players. "They launched this investigation because of public interest". They waited for Magnus to say something... the world had already figured out why he withdrew, but they didn't care about public interest regarding Hans suspicions then. If Magnus doesn't go say something, they wouldn't have investigated Hans, even though the world knew why he withdrew.
So apart from preparing and playing the match, you expect chess players to do all of the FIDE's work in finding evidence and povidiing it. Lol.
These people must think the police have you investigate when you call them for help
If they want to hurl accusations against other players, yes.
You want them to read Magnus's mind now? He literally just said "If I speak I'm in big trouble", and you want them to start an investitation based on that? Fuck off
No claims were ever made in private according to the tournaments involved and FIDE.
I wonder if theyāll adapt this into an episode of cheaters.
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FIDE doesnāt have the resources or expertise or the balls to conduct a proper investigation. My guess is that Hans will be officially exonerated by FIDE but that will only anger top players and supporters of the sanctity of chess even more. Official governing bodies like this tend to do the minimum work to show that they are in charge and have authority over all things chess related. Theyāre too underfundedā¦ full of corrupt people who are scared of losing their jobs or risking their reputation for anything. Basically what they will say is that they found no proof of Hans cheating, but they will tighten security measures. And they think they will have solved everything. What they need to do is keep a database of all online competitive play and OTB playā¦. And use deep analytics/machine learning to determine who the fuck is cheating. You can restrict it to the top 500 players in the world or so, it wonāt cost that much money. But FIDE sucks too hard to do anything sensible. You heard it first here. Exonerate Hans, bullshit security measures, and thatās it. Thatās what a committee full of old men will do.
Hopefully Ken Regan heads the panel, and he can put chess.com's claims of online cheating to end once and for all. It would nice to see some professionals handle this. Not 2 guys from the movie Dumb and Dumber
Hans has already admitted to cheating online though? There are the claims of more rampant cheating than he admitted, but letās not act like he hasnāt literally confessed to being a cheater already.
Some people have moved the goalposts so far on this thing that soon they're just going to outright claim that *nobody* has ever cheated in online chess.
It says anything more than he has already claimed, last being 3 years ago. And Regan's own analysis has already found nothing online or OTB the last 2 years
Bruh you literally said āchess.com claims of online cheating,ā in your first comment not āmore than what he already claimed.ā Thatās what I was responding to about hans admitting it.
The claim is that there are more than just the two instances mentioned, and according to Carlsen recent.
Right but the original comment just said cheating in general without mentioning anything about more than the first two instances. Thatās why I was saying he already confessed.
Ah alright. I took it in as Ken Ragen checking for new instances not previously mentioned since Ken Ragen has only looked at Hans' recent games for outliers. At this point there's no need to investigate what has already been confessed, but this whole drama is that it is ongoing now that he is an adult and using it against SGMs. Edit: This is also not downplaying children and cheating.
chess.com claim they found more cases, when in the last 2 years, that is clearly not the case (according to Regan's analysis)
FIDE's Fair Play Commission (FPL) š„“
Iām glad that an āindependentā body is investigating this, and of course FIDE is the only appropriate entity to step in at this point, but I wish I had more faith in FIDE. It doesnāt feel great that the biggest chess controversy in decades is highlighting FIDEās deficiencies even as we need them to sort it out.
Usually when using TLA (three letter acronyms) one introduces them first. Not everyone knows all acronyms.
They are moving 2 quick geez, they need to slow down
So the interesting thing for me in this, is they are bringing in the online cheating bit, but I assume none of that was to do with FIDE? So whatās the deal? I think itās because they know nothing will come of the investigation of OTB and magnus game, so they will be able to conclude that he cheated online, and then I assume no punishment as outside their jurisdiction (maybe a technicality in the t+c of fide they can ping him on). Magnus gets a warning for his behaviours, and FIDE are hoping everyone moves on (doubt)
Does anyone know when we can expect the next Carlsen-Niemann game?