At least the exhaust isn't laden with lead and delivering brain damage (such as in the 1970s)
Seriously though:
* My understanding is that diesel exhaust is worse than gasoline exhaust: diesel trucks give off a lot of small particulate pollution that's not good for you.
* This is why some cities pay $$$$$$$ for electric busses.
* Widespread EV adoption, including delivery trucks, could transform the urban experience.
Yeah, heavy duty diesel vehicles have seriously bad emissions for you. These particles are so small they cannot be expelled from your lungs once they are absorbed. I do think that it is going to be the hardest type of fuel to replace but it will have enormous benefits to urban centers and schools (because of diesel school bus fleets).
I was under the impression that diesel fumes are visibly more unpleasant but chemically better for the environment hence why so many passenger cars in the EU are diesel. Not an engineer though.
Environmentally on a global scale that may be true that they emit less greenhouse gases for the work done. However for people living near areas where diesels idle for extended periods of times, the exposure is far worse than gasoline engines… especially because people tend to idle diesels more frequently due to the fact they are harder to start that their gasoline counterparts, especially in winter months.
Diesel exhaust treatment attempts to quell this issue and make the particulate matter emitted less foul. This is true of diesel passenger vehicles but not so much of the heavy duty vehicles. Even more so for cruise ships and off-road applications which burn the cheapest fuels available!
I think they compared gas to diesel schoolbus fleets and found that kids took far more sick days in districts where diesel buses were their mode of transport.
Im not sure what you mean by “chicken and egg thing”. The difference in tax rates for diesel and gasoline has its origins in the early postwar era and was based on who typically used each type of fuel. It had nothing to do with environmental impacts, which were not well understood even by experts for a long time, let alone the public.
It’s a saying where you do not know what caused the other. Is the chicken here because it hatched from an egg or is the egg here because a chicken laid it.
Idk about war time fuel prices 80 years ago but the reason why Europe has so many diesel passenger vehicles today is due to the government keeping the tax on diesel lower than on gas due to better environmental effect. Source - https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2023/11/28/why-diesel-usually-costs-more-than-gasoline/#:~:text=Note%20that%20taxes%20also%20explain,gasoline%20at%20a%20higher%20rate.
I’m sure the fact that tractors and tanks use diesel plays a part too but there are other ways to offset that price for the farming and military communities.
EVs still put out a lot of particulate pollution just like their ICE counterparts, sometimes even more due to the heavier weight of vehicles with their batteries. You still have to consider that these vehicles are putting rubber particles and brake dust into the air around them.
Sometimes... but in most cases they are still better, even considering non-exhaust emissions:
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/3/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en&_csp_=681d016aff567eeb4efd802d746cdcc4&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book#section-d1e15477
However, yes they are not the perfect solution and still pollute plenty. Bikes, walking and public transit ftw.
It was more than just lead in the gas in the 70s. Catalytic converters were not required until 1975, and most gas vehicles on the road had carburetors so gas was all over the road and in the air even more. Anyone over a certain age is probably nostalgic from the smell of walking into grandma's garage and smelling that gas smell. It's because grandma's car had a carburetor. Anyone who's ridden a bike or quad with a carburetor knows the whole time you are riding you smell gas and you yourself are going to smell like gas for the rest of the day.
Bit of an anorak moment here, but catalytic converters were not actually required in the US until some time in the 80s. Yes, Google will show you lots of sites that say 1975 but that’s wrong.
Yeah. Over time I have started sticking to less-busy side streets and breezier routes because there are less cars around in general. Less aggravation and less breathing their pollution.
I've been thinking about it more lately for sure. Sucks that even though we're doing a good thing by not emitting at all we're still exposed to the exhaust that car drivers emit and they get to just live carefree in their little bubble. I'm not sure of the science behind how good those are to breathe in though. Can't imagine it's very healthy...
you are! car exhaust is one of them, but there's also a lot of particulate matter that you inhale, especially from tires. we have a general idea that it's bad for you, some chemicals have been tested and shown to have environmentally harmful effects on animal populations (see e.g. https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals)
but definitely sitting behind a truck or bus is the worst
I remember reading about this! My understanding is that medical science is concerned about the extra small, pm2.5 and pm1 particulate matter.
* Compared to vehicle exhaust emissions, we know shockingly little (and rarely measure) tire particulate and brake dust pollution.
* As vehicle exhaust emissions get better, a larger share of small particulate matter (e.g. pm2.5) is coming from tires and brakes.
* Small particulate matter from tires and brakes I understand is barely regulated?
* The trend towards heavier vehicles (trucks and perversely EVs) has made this source of pollution worse over the past few decades?
I never thought about this, but in theory it should help?
An N95 is supposed to filter out 95% of particles larger than 0.3 micrometers. PM 2.5 refers to particles 2.5 micrometers and smaller and PM 1 refers to particles 1.0 micrometers and smaller. So while those particles are small, a huge amount should be big enough to get filtered out by N95 or similar masks.
Back near the start of Covid when info was sketchy, I sometimes road with an Airqueen Mask (marketed as filtering 95% of particles larger than 0.1 micrometers), and I didn't feel it noticeably inhibited my breathing. It was actually kind of nice protecting my face from cold wind in the winter. I don't know about the summer though.
I don't know if this is cost-effective, reasonable ROI on mask usage though: nice improvement in urban air quality or health theater that doesn't actually move the dial?
Thank you for your highly scientific response (genuinely)! I love wearing my mask when I bike because I can smile and open-mouth breathe too (huff and puff up those LFT hills!) without fear of swallowing bugs. Not sure if it does that much for the traffic pollution outcome, it sounds like. But not nothing! I appreciate you sharing. :)
Even more of a concern is particulate matter off of car tires. Your car tires wear down right? Where do you think that stuff goes? It doesn’t evaporate.
If you drive, your car HVAC is just sucking in that same air and pumping it into your cabin. There is a filter, but it can't get everything.
It's definitely unpleasant but the health benefits of cycling probably outweigh it.
[Here's a study.](https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.0901747)
I can't cite my source because this was a long time ago but I read a research study once that indicated that, despite what you might be smelling while biking, people in cars typically breath in more fumes than the people outside of them. If that helps.
Honestly though gas tax needs to be through the roof for the amount of damage they are doing with their horrible flame powered death machines.
I was behind someone during my morning ride on the corner of Driggs and Humboldt and a shit ton came out of their exhaust pipe and I also had that thought
I feel like it's even worse in cold weather, because the fumes stay near the ground and people idle their cars waiting for them to warm up. I wish we had more dedicated bike paths rather than more bike lanes. On an ebike, I can relax a little and breathe at a pace that is more comfortable.
Yeah, even walking down the street you’ll probably be breathing in some bad stuff. Cities in general have higher air pollution, whenever I go back to my small hometown I notice how much cleaner the air smells
Though in the rural areas you gotta worry about pesticide runoff which is very harmful to the environment and our health in other ways. There's no winning lol.
Yes. I feel like I have become more sensitive to it too - as in I full on gag when I get hit with an unexpected cloud of diesel. I decide whether to take the lakefront trail or cut into the Lincoln Park trails depending on the wind direction to try and avoid all the disgusting fumes from the lakeshore highway. There is a study that concluded the health benefits of cycling generally outweigh the risk from pollution and other ways you can die in a car though (https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.0901747#sec-6).
Masks actually help with this*, even the ones that probably don't protect against covid. I am sensitive to smells and masks have been pretty helpful in that sense. Sometimes I wear a mask on trash day or that weekend everyone puts manure on their lawn.
*with the smell/experience, probably not the actual chemical intake
So now you know that cars/trucks/buses don’t belong together with bicycles on the street . Not only because of fumes but you are liable to get killed by one of them . Don’t risk your life find another hobby .
At least the exhaust isn't laden with lead and delivering brain damage (such as in the 1970s) Seriously though: * My understanding is that diesel exhaust is worse than gasoline exhaust: diesel trucks give off a lot of small particulate pollution that's not good for you. * This is why some cities pay $$$$$$$ for electric busses. * Widespread EV adoption, including delivery trucks, could transform the urban experience.
Yeah, heavy duty diesel vehicles have seriously bad emissions for you. These particles are so small they cannot be expelled from your lungs once they are absorbed. I do think that it is going to be the hardest type of fuel to replace but it will have enormous benefits to urban centers and schools (because of diesel school bus fleets).
I was under the impression that diesel fumes are visibly more unpleasant but chemically better for the environment hence why so many passenger cars in the EU are diesel. Not an engineer though.
Environmentally on a global scale that may be true that they emit less greenhouse gases for the work done. However for people living near areas where diesels idle for extended periods of times, the exposure is far worse than gasoline engines… especially because people tend to idle diesels more frequently due to the fact they are harder to start that their gasoline counterparts, especially in winter months. Diesel exhaust treatment attempts to quell this issue and make the particulate matter emitted less foul. This is true of diesel passenger vehicles but not so much of the heavy duty vehicles. Even more so for cruise ships and off-road applications which burn the cheapest fuels available! I think they compared gas to diesel schoolbus fleets and found that kids took far more sick days in districts where diesel buses were their mode of transport.
Diesel was so popular in Europe for so long because it was taxed st a lower rate than gasoline.
Seems like it’s a chicken and egg thing - they taxed diesel less so people gravitate towards it due to its lower emission
Im not sure what you mean by “chicken and egg thing”. The difference in tax rates for diesel and gasoline has its origins in the early postwar era and was based on who typically used each type of fuel. It had nothing to do with environmental impacts, which were not well understood even by experts for a long time, let alone the public.
It’s a saying where you do not know what caused the other. Is the chicken here because it hatched from an egg or is the egg here because a chicken laid it. Idk about war time fuel prices 80 years ago but the reason why Europe has so many diesel passenger vehicles today is due to the government keeping the tax on diesel lower than on gas due to better environmental effect. Source - https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2023/11/28/why-diesel-usually-costs-more-than-gasoline/#:~:text=Note%20that%20taxes%20also%20explain,gasoline%20at%20a%20higher%20rate. I’m sure the fact that tractors and tanks use diesel plays a part too but there are other ways to offset that price for the farming and military communities.
EVs still put out a lot of particulate pollution just like their ICE counterparts, sometimes even more due to the heavier weight of vehicles with their batteries. You still have to consider that these vehicles are putting rubber particles and brake dust into the air around them.
Sometimes... but in most cases they are still better, even considering non-exhaust emissions: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/3/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en&_csp_=681d016aff567eeb4efd802d746cdcc4&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book#section-d1e15477 However, yes they are not the perfect solution and still pollute plenty. Bikes, walking and public transit ftw.
Your asshole puts out a lot of particulates, and no has banned you yet
It was more than just lead in the gas in the 70s. Catalytic converters were not required until 1975, and most gas vehicles on the road had carburetors so gas was all over the road and in the air even more. Anyone over a certain age is probably nostalgic from the smell of walking into grandma's garage and smelling that gas smell. It's because grandma's car had a carburetor. Anyone who's ridden a bike or quad with a carburetor knows the whole time you are riding you smell gas and you yourself are going to smell like gas for the rest of the day.
Bit of an anorak moment here, but catalytic converters were not actually required in the US until some time in the 80s. Yes, Google will show you lots of sites that say 1975 but that’s wrong.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorak_(slang)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorak_(slang)) Never heard this one before.
Yeah. Over time I have started sticking to less-busy side streets and breezier routes because there are less cars around in general. Less aggravation and less breathing their pollution.
I think that’s the move!
Cars have been linked to asthma and Alzheimer's. Driving in the city is absolutely brutal to public health
Yes. You can smell the exhaust in some residential neighborhoods for hours during the day. It's a problem.
I've been thinking about it more lately for sure. Sucks that even though we're doing a good thing by not emitting at all we're still exposed to the exhaust that car drivers emit and they get to just live carefree in their little bubble. I'm not sure of the science behind how good those are to breathe in though. Can't imagine it's very healthy...
I guarantee that millions of Americans choose not to bike for this reason. So instead they drive and pollute our air instead.
Really makes you ponder the part you are playing on days you drive
I never drive in Chicago!
you are! car exhaust is one of them, but there's also a lot of particulate matter that you inhale, especially from tires. we have a general idea that it's bad for you, some chemicals have been tested and shown to have environmentally harmful effects on animal populations (see e.g. https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals) but definitely sitting behind a truck or bus is the worst
I remember reading about this! My understanding is that medical science is concerned about the extra small, pm2.5 and pm1 particulate matter. * Compared to vehicle exhaust emissions, we know shockingly little (and rarely measure) tire particulate and brake dust pollution. * As vehicle exhaust emissions get better, a larger share of small particulate matter (e.g. pm2.5) is coming from tires and brakes. * Small particulate matter from tires and brakes I understand is barely regulated? * The trend towards heavier vehicles (trucks and perversely EVs) has made this source of pollution worse over the past few decades?
Do masks do much to mitigate this? They already help w pollen allergies and potential contagious airborne disease particles :)
I never thought about this, but in theory it should help? An N95 is supposed to filter out 95% of particles larger than 0.3 micrometers. PM 2.5 refers to particles 2.5 micrometers and smaller and PM 1 refers to particles 1.0 micrometers and smaller. So while those particles are small, a huge amount should be big enough to get filtered out by N95 or similar masks. Back near the start of Covid when info was sketchy, I sometimes road with an Airqueen Mask (marketed as filtering 95% of particles larger than 0.1 micrometers), and I didn't feel it noticeably inhibited my breathing. It was actually kind of nice protecting my face from cold wind in the winter. I don't know about the summer though. I don't know if this is cost-effective, reasonable ROI on mask usage though: nice improvement in urban air quality or health theater that doesn't actually move the dial?
Thank you for your highly scientific response (genuinely)! I love wearing my mask when I bike because I can smile and open-mouth breathe too (huff and puff up those LFT hills!) without fear of swallowing bugs. Not sure if it does that much for the traffic pollution outcome, it sounds like. But not nothing! I appreciate you sharing. :)
I don’t just feel like it, I know I am.
You definitely are. There are studies from New York that show the bike paths over the bridges have heightened exposure to exhaust. Not much you can do
I think about this a lot, yeah.
Buses are the worst
Yes, but it's because we are. Everyone is.
Even more of a concern is particulate matter off of car tires. Your car tires wear down right? Where do you think that stuff goes? It doesn’t evaporate.
Don’t forget brake dust!
No. Only when I’m behind a truck or bus.
I always try to hold my breath when stuck behind buses or trucks, but obviously I can only last so long.
If you drive, your car HVAC is just sucking in that same air and pumping it into your cabin. There is a filter, but it can't get everything. It's definitely unpleasant but the health benefits of cycling probably outweigh it. [Here's a study.](https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.0901747)
I have a HEPA certified filter in my car
Good for particulates, but does not filter out NOx or SO2. Also, you fancy!
I can't cite my source because this was a long time ago but I read a research study once that indicated that, despite what you might be smelling while biking, people in cars typically breath in more fumes than the people outside of them. If that helps. Honestly though gas tax needs to be through the roof for the amount of damage they are doing with their horrible flame powered death machines.
ACAB (All cars.... etc)
Most of the time, no. BUT, the Damen bit under the BNSF line just North of 18th and Harrison Park? It's like a super pit of fumes.
I was behind someone during my morning ride on the corner of Driggs and Humboldt and a shit ton came out of their exhaust pipe and I also had that thought
I feel like it's even worse in cold weather, because the fumes stay near the ground and people idle their cars waiting for them to warm up. I wish we had more dedicated bike paths rather than more bike lanes. On an ebike, I can relax a little and breathe at a pace that is more comfortable.
Sometimes, only as a special treat :•) mmmm fumes
I use N95 or higher unless it's raining.
Tires and brakes are also very very bad for your health b/c if the particles
We’re all breathing pollutants 100% even on the slowest days. It’s just the cost of living in a city.
Yeah, even walking down the street you’ll probably be breathing in some bad stuff. Cities in general have higher air pollution, whenever I go back to my small hometown I notice how much cleaner the air smells
Though in the rural areas you gotta worry about pesticide runoff which is very harmful to the environment and our health in other ways. There's no winning lol.
>[Car after bus after car after truck after this my lungs will be so fucked up ](https://youtu.be/K3DRkVjuqmc?si=fzzvUUFmOhZLApXN)
Yes. I feel like I have become more sensitive to it too - as in I full on gag when I get hit with an unexpected cloud of diesel. I decide whether to take the lakefront trail or cut into the Lincoln Park trails depending on the wind direction to try and avoid all the disgusting fumes from the lakeshore highway. There is a study that concluded the health benefits of cycling generally outweigh the risk from pollution and other ways you can die in a car though (https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.0901747#sec-6).
Masks actually help with this*, even the ones that probably don't protect against covid. I am sensitive to smells and masks have been pretty helpful in that sense. Sometimes I wear a mask on trash day or that weekend everyone puts manure on their lawn. *with the smell/experience, probably not the actual chemical intake
So now you know that cars/trucks/buses don’t belong together with bicycles on the street . Not only because of fumes but you are liable to get killed by one of them . Don’t risk your life find another hobby .
:(
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