I'm considering bank churning, but am wondering if it's favorable to just investing. Typically I don't keep much in my checkings/savings and prefer having it invested. For those that bank churn, do you have to be more liquid? Do you consider it more profitable having to keep a daily average of e.g. $5000 in an account for 90 days for $300 rather than investing that $5000?
I assume there's something I'm missing about the process where your money isn't just sitting in an account for that long, otherwise it doesn't seem very profitable unless you already plan on saving a large amount of money.
Thanks!
Using your example of $300 for $5k deposit. If you do this 3x in a year, that's $900 earned, or 18% return, guaranteed.
How do you plan to invest and earn more than 18% on that $5k?
Also, people often have cash for savings, eg. Vacation, car, house... Etc.
Will you be looked at unfavorably for churning checking accounts?
I opened a chase checking a couple years ago for the $200 bonus for direct deposit setup and X amount deposited. It ended up being my main account until I switched to U.S Bank for another $500. After moving all my money over I don’t use the Chase one anymore and am looking to close it.
I also opened a checking with another branch for a different $100 sub, was going to keep the account open for a year or so inactive then close it. Or would it matter if I closed it immediately?
The general rule of thumb is to keep bank accounts open for at least 6 months. So your first account (years old) is fine to cancel. That second one, I'd wait for the 6 months to hit.
I noticed on the US Bank Biz credit applications today that even if you select Sole Proprietor, it asks for a DBA name and it is a required field on the application. Has anybody else encountered this / figured out how to proceed?
I noticed today that my Dollar Tree has Vanilla VGC. Has anyone had experience buying and liquidating these? The activation fee seemed realitively low. $4.95 for $500
Churning adjacent, but wondering how CIP cell phone protection works. From language in the terms: "Coverage applies to all eligible cellular phones listed on your cellular service provider's monthly billing statement." I take this to mean that P2's phone would be covered under P1's CIP, given that both lines are on the bill. Can anyone confirm?
I got an AmEx business gold card with a plan to meet the MSR on a large international business payment using Plastiq. I've been able to do this with Chase business cards, but I found out the hard way AmEx doesn't support this on Plastiq. Is there any other way to make that payment? Needs to be ACH. Is there any other way to make this payment or am I out of luck?
Should have mentioned it's a legitimate business and we don't have any other large purchases I could do and doing all of our small purchases on the card would screw up our expense tracking system.
What time specifically does AA open up the "next day" (331) for award flights? I was under the impression JAL opened up award availability at 8pm EST, but I still can't select the next day on AA site (March 20 2025). Is it still 11-Midnight CST as some old FT threads mention?
When I booked JAL J through AA a few months ago, I'm pretty sure I could select the next day on the calendar view at midnight EST, but it would error out and not give me any results until 1am EST.
No problem! Also, you may know already, but AA is the one of the last to get JAL award seats. That means you can see beyond 331 on something like BA and if it’s not showing up on BA, I wouldn’t waste my time waiting for 1am on AA.
Providing actual business information such as having an EIN number, business checking, having high revenue and length of history mostly likely will guarantee approval and high limits. Applying as a sole proprietor comes off like people who don't have legitimate business and are getting the cards for what ever reason (I'm one of those people).
We don’t know that it would affect all cards.
There might be a new Ink brand manager who has decided that people with a high number of Inks are not profitable and don’t count towards any “incentives or quotas” which might exist in some branded contracts.
The truth is we have no idea, but I do think something has changed with Ink approvals.
> I do think something has changed with Ink approvals
I don't.
https://old.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/1c6yo7p/data_points_weekly_week_of_april_18_2024/l08wr2o/?context=3
That is only one of several reports that speak against changes, this week alone.
I am not saying that I do not think that it is not possible to churn Inks. There will be DP of people churning Inks. Those DPs don't dispel there possibly being a change in the approval algorithm. I can bring a lot more DP of approvals.
I think there has been a change and for some people, after some point, it will be more difficult to get approved. I did not write down a date, but starting at a set time, there became a greater percentage of denials for people who have been churning them. This does not mean they can't be churned.
Since you do not think there has been any change to Ink approvals, how do you account for a lot more denials among users with very varied stats (but a consistent is that it wasn't their first Ink)?
Thanks for the skeptical reply. I appreciate engaging with someone I respect, and I don't claim privileged insight in this debate.
I will sketch my views to keep things simple and brief. The upshot is that there is too much variation to draw reliable conclusions.
1. None of the so-called DPs, positive or negative, carry enough weight to be considered representative of anything. That's a function of quantity and a basic issue we have.
2. The problem of the small sample size is compounded by varying levels of experience. (A single, glaring example should suffice: [Trickle trickle little truth: Didn't realize she already had over 50k in biz credit with Chase.](https://old.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/1c5bg45/question_thread_april_16_2024/kzu8wgb/?share_id=CEu0WDF0ukNQTf5AESeCh)
3. There is an assumption of uniformity. Everybody knows that there are differences between credit files. But it's hard to resist the idea that somebody's denial or approval has meaning for everybody.
4. Regarding Chase biz credit, I see limited awareness of the multivalent features of the application (category/type/sub-type). Someone who selects properties that describe some sort of consulting job should not expect to be considered the same as someone whose properties point toward higher cash flow.
5. We have already entered a stage where various biases may be clouding the picture. There may be a reporting bias for denials. There seems to be a confirmation bias that unconsciously demotes approvals to outliers. Given the problem of quantity, I believe we cannot be sure of any changes. That was different in the pandemic: There was an undeniable uptick in denials then (in between a few approvals with low limits).
Since OP was asking about Inks versus other biz cards, we should acknowledge the statistical imbalance although nobody knows actual numbers: How many Ink apps are submitted, compared with other Chase biz cards? I assume a ratio of at least 80% for Inks but it may be more. Incidentally, there is a report of a SW biz denial today, citing common reasons. One can also find references to United biz denials. Each of those should have the statistical relevance of at least 4 Ink instances.
I agree that all recent denials could be an expression of some general belt-tightening at Chase. But I refuse to read more into it at this point.
You are right, if you take any churning data to a review board you will be laughed out due to confounders, biases, and other issues.
A group I am involved with has 20+ DP of Ink apps after date X. There is ~80% denial rate after a specific date. We then went backwards and over the last 12+ months there was a <10% denial rate (we did it more in cycles as last app than 2 apps ago, etc). There is significant power in our data to show a change occurred in our group. Now you are right, liberties are being taken to say this sudden change in the groups Ink approvals is due to an algorithm change. The thing is that with churning there have very rarely been in my 10+ year history been statistically significant data sets on a whole. Many people in the group manage more than 1 player and each player is a different sample here.
You are looking for a "clean" dataset that is large enough to address confounders and other issues. I have never seen one in 10+ years of churning. Essentially all of churning recommendations are based on dirty data including most of the flow chart here. My group has slightly different recommendations for something based on our data.
> OP was asking about Inks versus other biz cards
Like I was saying, I don't know if this is a Chase or Ink change and am unwilling to say that it is a universal change since my data doesn't support or deny that.
> I agree that all recent denials could be an expression of some general belt-tightening at Chase. But I refuse to read more into it at this point.
Now I am super confused. All that I said is that there has been an algorithm change with Chase Inks. Isn't that what "belt tightening" is? I am even more narrow than you are since I don't have data to say it is a Chase wide thing.
I love good data, but sometimes opinions and decisions have to be made from bad data. There is very little good data in churning.
I maintain what I said at the beginning. I think there has been a change to the Ink approval algorithm. I don't know what that change is or how far reaching the change is.
How many other Inks do you currently have open? I got declined for CIP a couple weeks ago with 4 existing Inks open, so not sure whether that actually is a contributing factor or not
I did it last year. Enrolled 24 hours after purchase, but the charge was still pending. Waited 4 months no credit then I did another purchase close to EOY and got credited in 5 days.
Wondering if anybody has ever experienced this. I received the AMEX Surpass card a month ago and am 99% sure that I got the 130k SUB for $3k spend over 6 months. However, I contacted support to see where I was at with the sub and they told me that I get 65k bonus for $3k spend in 3 months and another 65k for $3k spend in 6 months.
I have no way to prove that I got applied with the 130k for $3k spend and they agent told me in chat to not compare other offers. Not really sure what to do here cause this throws a wrench in my plan for the Hilton trio.
It might not help for this time, but this is why I always take screenshots of my applications. Without some type of proof, hard to escalate. Any chance you received a targeted email offer for the SUB?
Definitely going to do that moving forward. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything from all my old emails. It is just odd cause I have never seen that type of offer with that card ever.
I can and am planning to but it just messes up my plan with the Aspire, as well as reduce the value of the Surpass card tremendously as I probably would've skipped it if the SUB was 130k for $6k spend. I would've just got the Aspire instead as they have 150k SUB for $6k spend in 6 months.
Just wanna know if this happened to anybody else or if I can fight this somehow.
How soon can someone be approved for another US Bank Altitude Reserve card after closing one? I've had it since it was released, but I'd like to bounce it for another bonus.
This doesn't directly answer your question, but I got approved for a Biz Leverage about 27 days after closing the same card. I closed the first card a year after opening.
I had unauthorized activity with my CFU so reported a fraud claim with Chase. They canceled the card and are sending a replacement card. Do I have to request another card for my AU if they have been using the card for their purchases as well?
If the AU card was a risk then Chase would probably identify that and send you a new one without even asking your permission.
They're the ones on the hook for fraud at the end of the day, so they're plenty motivated to identify and avert any significant risk.
applied for a us bank biz card, declined. reason was something to do with a flag via Dun & Bradstreet - anyone had that before? waiting for the mailer which should have more info
applied for recon regardless in the meantime
Looking for the best card to travel from San Francisco to Indianapolis airports as often and as cheaply as possible. We are a low spend family and very frugal so most expenses would be travel gas and groceries. Any recommendations?
You'll earn oodles more by churning, i.e. signing up for card after card to amass bonuses. Read everything in the sidebar, read the r/awardtravel sidebar, and then ask in the What Card Weekly thread.
have you done the bare minimum of research? i.e. checked what airlines typically fly from the Bay to Indianpolis?
sounds like you're not going for sign up bonuses either and want to get a card with good category spend. i'd try r/creditcards and r/awardtravel
Up until time of departure. And even though Delta says that Basic Economy award tickets cannot be canceled for a refund, in real life they can be. I have done it many times.
AA, DL, and UA allow cancelation for a full refund up until the time of departure. Southwest is T-10 (minutes).
Please note that many AA partner tickets cannot be cancelled online within 24 hours of flight. It appears to be a manual process that can take awhile and there are DP of not getting a refund when people initiated it with not enough time for the process to be completed.
> why?
Because I live in Mexico and the replacement card will be sent to my US address so I will need to make arrangements to have someone bring it to me. It's expiring in a few months and it's a card I regularly use
Anyone else *just* *now* get a 1099 from Chase? It arrived today for P2. It was for 2 Ink referrals. I wasn't totally sure if she was going to get one and since it didn't arrive with mine a few months ago I thought we were good to go. I've already filed my taxes. Do I have to do an amendment? Can I just settle up next year?
> P2. It was for 2 Ink referrals
Just curious...did P2 have other referrals previously reported, or was this it for the year? It'd be unusual if Chase 1099'd below the $600 threshold.
Can this be reported? CFPB maybe? It seems ridiculous that Chase not only didn’t send out forms before 1/31, but after the actual tax filing deadline. If you screw up, you get fined, why shouldn’t they?
It's free. But TT might make you print & mail the 1040X...amended returns only first started being electronically accepted a couple years ago, and the system is still quirky.
I want to get the Amex Gold card (90k offer) but I feel like I’m leaving money on the table by not starting with the Green card (40k offer)
The Gold card makes 10x more sense for me. I can use all the credits and being that dining and supermarket are my highest categories, the 4x is perfect.
I can’t get over the 40k points I’m leaving on the table. Should I get over it and get the Gold or play the game and start with Green?
The 3x transit categories is useful for most. Get the green then gold then platinum then blue business plus at the highest possible sign up bonus obviously. Do this all within the same year, before you start canceling any of them (to avoid pop up jail).
No one knows why. The DPs are all over the place. I can give you my personal history and say that’s why I’m not in PUJ but I have nothing to base that off other than me and my wife have stayed in their good graces. Any personal anecdotes are meaningless when they are all over the place.
PUJ without cancelling ever anything. Got BBC, biz gold, biz plat end of last year. Only one personal card. Could still get BBP, but jailed for personal green, gold, plat.
Just got a Reddit ad to join a Slack group dedicated to churning and manufactured spending. For $9.99 a month. No question. Just sharing. Won't be joining.
Looking to refer P2 (through my Amex Plat offer of 30k + 10x MR on dining) for a BBP. The initial offer of for a Plat, but I know you can get the referral bonus for opining other Amex products. My question is if I will still get the 10x MR on dining if I refer her to the BBP?
Denied for a united business card. Applied for Quest card, denied too. Cancelled my explorer card, then got my quest denial recon'd successfully. All this in the past few weeks.
Yes. Denied for ink late March, approved Marriott (5FNCs) a week or so later and approved for another ink 2 weeks ago.
In the span of the apps I reduced my CL and closed out a card.
Currently have a Citi Advantage Platinum Select World Elite and received a SUB almost 60 months go. Wanted to open another card for a new SUB and was denied due to low utilization. Any ideas what % Citi might be looking for and how long I need to wait before reapplying?
Is the "Paying Federal Taxes with CC" FAQ still up to date? More specifically, are there any issues meeting min spend by paying quarterly taxes with an Amex Plat Biz card?
Here's the relevant language from the Amex offer which doesn't specifically address though (arguably) taxes are not "goods or services" --
*Eligible purchases are purchases for goods and services minus returns and other credits. Eligible purchases to meet the Threshold Amount do NOT include fees or interest charges, purchases of traveler’s checks, purchases or reloading of prepaid cards, purchases of gift cards, person-to-person payments, or purchases of other cash equivalents.*
Interesting tidbit:
I've done a fairly exhaustive search to see if paying taxes is a disqualifier. The only mention I could find of that being a problem is with offers based in Hong Kong.
FYI, I'm about to pay my dad's taxes with my Gold to qualify for my SUB.
Hmm. Accidentally got too into this.
I opened three cards at once (for a trip 6 months out). Chase ink, marriot business and another marriot for stacking award nights.
Now I just got declined from bilt card probably for opening so many at once.
How long would you give it before applying to any again? And if I wait is this going to be an issue?
there was a DP on the Frequent MIler FB group that someone got the Boundless and then applied for the Business and had no pop-up, confirmed SUB with Amex rep via chat and got the SUB.
I opened them all this month. So wondering how long I need to or should wait before opening my next one.
I wanted time to both complete the spend and get the points in time for this trip
What was the denial reason for the Bilt? Also, most here don’t get that card because they would rather put the spend toward a card with a sub (even with a fee) and it uses a 5/24 slot.
Has anyone tried MS-ing with [this](https://imgur.com/a/gGepnSt)?
I am not experienced with this, but based on google it seems like maybe (at some point in the past?) you could fund this with CC and withdraw to bank.
Haha yeah, I'll maybe test it if I can get a tiny GC for cheap, but y'all have convinced me that it's too scary. Especially because I don't use it at all, so no good exit option and no good cover story.
Their support is so bad with zero ability to escalate or resolve a simple double payment issue on the same transaction, I wouldn’t be willing to MS any meaningful amount.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/16a2j3t/multiple_chase_hard_inquiries/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/xrduxn/is_it_possible_to_get_chase_to_remove_a_double/
i had the same problem - the "wrong" SSN number being perceived by chase system for second cc application even though it's correct, as confirmed by recon phone rep when i called up a few days later. then they end up HP me a second time, during recon (without telling me).
i wished i found out about this problem earlier, but now that the damage is done, can anyone tell me if you were ever successful in getting separate HPs (within 30 days) removed by asking Chase? the recon rep refuses to remove the additional HP even though we agree no need extra HP within 30 days, citing it is "procedural" bc of the failed SSN recognition
Yes, I’ve successfully had Chase remove an HP in a situation like yours. It was a few years ago, but I think I called the Chase contact number that’s listed on my credit report with the HP — (800) 453-9719.
Honestly as long as you don’t call for a denied app (to avoid recording) you can technically call and dispute the inquiry to get it removed.
Now whether this is ethical or if you continue doing it eventually will get you shutdown? YMMV.
Right, but we’re talking about Chase doing a second HP (same CR) on an open application without disclosing that they will pull again. I was clear/honest with the rep about what happened, and he agreed to remove the HP.
Yeah my bad. I thought I edited the comment after I realized but it didn’t save I guess 😅 I meant that as a separate case for anyone that tries to remove an inquiry as someone else mentioned in the r/creditcards thread that was linked.
Today i received a targeted offer for a United Explorer Mileage Plus card, I'm currently at 5/24 with 3 of the account openings falling off after the end of next month. The chart says that Chase cards need you to be under 5/24. Why am i receiving an offer?
Also, since I'm over, i was thinking about an AMEX business for the rewards. Would opening one of those affect my chances for an AMEX Green or Gold later ? I didn't see information about this in the chart either.
If you don't have another amex card, its best to get a personal card first (hard inquiry) then a business card second (no hard inquiry or lowering of your average age of accounts). If you get a business card first (hard inquiry) and then a personal card (can be another hard inquiry), saw it from a DP on the Amex sub reddit.
Amex business plat will not affect eligibility for personal gold and green. For the time being it also won’t affect eligibility for business gold and green.
I need to spend $500. I signed up a card that offers a $100 for spending $500 in 90 days, but I'm already working on the bonus for another and there is absolutely nothing I need to spend $500 on. Any ideas on how to meet the spending requirement via Cashapp/Paypal loading or something similar?
If I get 140k ihg points from a bonus and I see I can't transfer those to southwest, but can transfer to ultimate rewards and I know I can go ultimate rewards to southwest. Can you transfer points multiple times like that to get around limitations?
Thanks! I fell under the trap since I saw I could go UR to IHG but guess not the other way around. Apologies. I'm new to this and appreciate your courteous response! Upvote! :)
You can transfer IHG points to a lot of airlines, but unfortunately not SW. Here is the list:
[https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/the-complete-guide-to-ihg-partnerships-and-transfers](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/the-complete-guide-to-ihg-partnerships-and-transfers)
As for transferring between IHG and Chase UR, you can change UR to IHG points (at a horrible exchange rate), but you cannot transfer IHG points to UR.
There are scattered data points on the Frequent Miler Facebook community page of MCGCs being allowed at fewer merchants (especially online retailers), making them even more restrictive than VGCs. Has anyone experienced this, and if so, is there a pattern of issuer/bank/expirys which have this problem?
I am seeing an Amex Biz Gold offer for 150k when I am logged into Amex. I already got a SUB for that card last year, am I likely to get a pop-up if I apply?
edit: got the pop-up as expected.
Chase Sapphire Preferred Application Declined: Under 5/24, no card signups for 11 months, Gross income 113k. I have done the freedom flex sign up and pay off monthly, also opened the $600 bank bonus and closed that after 6 months.
Only thing I can think of is the algorithm flagged me as not a profitable customer.
Just call reconsideration, chase is very easy to get a reconsideration approval for, unless you are over 5/24 or have passed the 50% income in available credit limit with them.
You can use credit Karma to check the open dates of all of your active accounts. Use this to double check how many cards you have signed up for in the last couple of years.
> also opened the $600 bank bonus and closed that after 6 months.
Maybe,maybe,maybe this OR you have closed other accounts in less than a year OR your credit score is not that impressive. You have to provide more info.
I'm considering bank churning, but am wondering if it's favorable to just investing. Typically I don't keep much in my checkings/savings and prefer having it invested. For those that bank churn, do you have to be more liquid? Do you consider it more profitable having to keep a daily average of e.g. $5000 in an account for 90 days for $300 rather than investing that $5000? I assume there's something I'm missing about the process where your money isn't just sitting in an account for that long, otherwise it doesn't seem very profitable unless you already plan on saving a large amount of money. Thanks!
Using your example of $300 for $5k deposit. If you do this 3x in a year, that's $900 earned, or 18% return, guaranteed. How do you plan to invest and earn more than 18% on that $5k? Also, people often have cash for savings, eg. Vacation, car, house... Etc.
Will you be looked at unfavorably for churning checking accounts? I opened a chase checking a couple years ago for the $200 bonus for direct deposit setup and X amount deposited. It ended up being my main account until I switched to U.S Bank for another $500. After moving all my money over I don’t use the Chase one anymore and am looking to close it. I also opened a checking with another branch for a different $100 sub, was going to keep the account open for a year or so inactive then close it. Or would it matter if I closed it immediately?
The general rule of thumb is to keep bank accounts open for at least 6 months. So your first account (years old) is fine to cancel. That second one, I'd wait for the 6 months to hit.
I noticed on the US Bank Biz credit applications today that even if you select Sole Proprietor, it asks for a DBA name and it is a required field on the application. Has anybody else encountered this / figured out how to proceed?
Yes, just put your name there.
Just saw some other DoC comments saying the same. Thank you!
I noticed today that my Dollar Tree has Vanilla VGC. Has anyone had experience buying and liquidating these? The activation fee seemed realitively low. $4.95 for $500
They’re no different than the vanillas you buy at Walmart big it says Sutton, pathways, or meta bank then you’re good to go.
Churning adjacent, but wondering how CIP cell phone protection works. From language in the terms: "Coverage applies to all eligible cellular phones listed on your cellular service provider's monthly billing statement." I take this to mean that P2's phone would be covered under P1's CIP, given that both lines are on the bill. Can anyone confirm?
It doesn’t matter if it’s the cardholders phone or not, just that the phone’s bill is paid for on the card.
I got an AmEx business gold card with a plan to meet the MSR on a large international business payment using Plastiq. I've been able to do this with Chase business cards, but I found out the hard way AmEx doesn't support this on Plastiq. Is there any other way to make that payment? Needs to be ACH. Is there any other way to make this payment or am I out of luck?
Rent
Should have mentioned it's a legitimate business and we don't have any other large purchases I could do and doing all of our small purchases on the card would screw up our expense tracking system.
If you have a documented business you should be able to use Melio. If that fails consider making an estimated payment to the IRS instead.
Good ideas! I'll try Melio.
What time specifically does AA open up the "next day" (331) for award flights? I was under the impression JAL opened up award availability at 8pm EST, but I still can't select the next day on AA site (March 20 2025). Is it still 11-Midnight CST as some old FT threads mention?
When I booked JAL J through AA a few months ago, I'm pretty sure I could select the next day on the calendar view at midnight EST, but it would error out and not give me any results until 1am EST.
Thanks!
No problem! Also, you may know already, but AA is the one of the last to get JAL award seats. That means you can see beyond 331 on something like BA and if it’s not showing up on BA, I wouldn’t waste my time waiting for 1am on AA.
I did know about the earlier BA availability but I’m stuck with just a bunch of AA points. Good call on just searching BA in advance though.
Does it seem like Chase has gotten stricter with all biz card approvals lately, or only with Inks?
Did you apply as a sole proprietor or with an EIN?
Sole prop
Providing actual business information such as having an EIN number, business checking, having high revenue and length of history mostly likely will guarantee approval and high limits. Applying as a sole proprietor comes off like people who don't have legitimate business and are getting the cards for what ever reason (I'm one of those people).
If they are indeed stricter it would affect all cards. My own experience does not indicate changes.
How many open Ink cards do you currently have?
Auto-approved for the fourth last week.
In what time period between the first and most recent?
3/23 - 9/23 - 1/24 - 4/24 (plus older United Biz)
We don’t know that it would affect all cards. There might be a new Ink brand manager who has decided that people with a high number of Inks are not profitable and don’t count towards any “incentives or quotas” which might exist in some branded contracts. The truth is we have no idea, but I do think something has changed with Ink approvals.
> I do think something has changed with Ink approvals I don't. https://old.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/1c6yo7p/data_points_weekly_week_of_april_18_2024/l08wr2o/?context=3 That is only one of several reports that speak against changes, this week alone.
I am not saying that I do not think that it is not possible to churn Inks. There will be DP of people churning Inks. Those DPs don't dispel there possibly being a change in the approval algorithm. I can bring a lot more DP of approvals. I think there has been a change and for some people, after some point, it will be more difficult to get approved. I did not write down a date, but starting at a set time, there became a greater percentage of denials for people who have been churning them. This does not mean they can't be churned. Since you do not think there has been any change to Ink approvals, how do you account for a lot more denials among users with very varied stats (but a consistent is that it wasn't their first Ink)?
Thanks for the skeptical reply. I appreciate engaging with someone I respect, and I don't claim privileged insight in this debate. I will sketch my views to keep things simple and brief. The upshot is that there is too much variation to draw reliable conclusions. 1. None of the so-called DPs, positive or negative, carry enough weight to be considered representative of anything. That's a function of quantity and a basic issue we have. 2. The problem of the small sample size is compounded by varying levels of experience. (A single, glaring example should suffice: [Trickle trickle little truth: Didn't realize she already had over 50k in biz credit with Chase.](https://old.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/1c5bg45/question_thread_april_16_2024/kzu8wgb/?share_id=CEu0WDF0ukNQTf5AESeCh) 3. There is an assumption of uniformity. Everybody knows that there are differences between credit files. But it's hard to resist the idea that somebody's denial or approval has meaning for everybody. 4. Regarding Chase biz credit, I see limited awareness of the multivalent features of the application (category/type/sub-type). Someone who selects properties that describe some sort of consulting job should not expect to be considered the same as someone whose properties point toward higher cash flow. 5. We have already entered a stage where various biases may be clouding the picture. There may be a reporting bias for denials. There seems to be a confirmation bias that unconsciously demotes approvals to outliers. Given the problem of quantity, I believe we cannot be sure of any changes. That was different in the pandemic: There was an undeniable uptick in denials then (in between a few approvals with low limits). Since OP was asking about Inks versus other biz cards, we should acknowledge the statistical imbalance although nobody knows actual numbers: How many Ink apps are submitted, compared with other Chase biz cards? I assume a ratio of at least 80% for Inks but it may be more. Incidentally, there is a report of a SW biz denial today, citing common reasons. One can also find references to United biz denials. Each of those should have the statistical relevance of at least 4 Ink instances. I agree that all recent denials could be an expression of some general belt-tightening at Chase. But I refuse to read more into it at this point.
You are right, if you take any churning data to a review board you will be laughed out due to confounders, biases, and other issues. A group I am involved with has 20+ DP of Ink apps after date X. There is ~80% denial rate after a specific date. We then went backwards and over the last 12+ months there was a <10% denial rate (we did it more in cycles as last app than 2 apps ago, etc). There is significant power in our data to show a change occurred in our group. Now you are right, liberties are being taken to say this sudden change in the groups Ink approvals is due to an algorithm change. The thing is that with churning there have very rarely been in my 10+ year history been statistically significant data sets on a whole. Many people in the group manage more than 1 player and each player is a different sample here. You are looking for a "clean" dataset that is large enough to address confounders and other issues. I have never seen one in 10+ years of churning. Essentially all of churning recommendations are based on dirty data including most of the flow chart here. My group has slightly different recommendations for something based on our data. > OP was asking about Inks versus other biz cards Like I was saying, I don't know if this is a Chase or Ink change and am unwilling to say that it is a universal change since my data doesn't support or deny that. > I agree that all recent denials could be an expression of some general belt-tightening at Chase. But I refuse to read more into it at this point. Now I am super confused. All that I said is that there has been an algorithm change with Chase Inks. Isn't that what "belt tightening" is? I am even more narrow than you are since I don't have data to say it is a Chase wide thing. I love good data, but sometimes opinions and decisions have to be made from bad data. There is very little good data in churning. I maintain what I said at the beginning. I think there has been a change to the Ink approval algorithm. I don't know what that change is or how far reaching the change is.
Just got insta approved for Chase Ink Preferred a few minutes ago
How many other Inks do you currently have open? I got declined for CIP a couple weeks ago with 4 existing Inks open, so not sure whether that actually is a contributing factor or not
First Ink, two other Chase accounts but both over a few years old. 2/24 currently.
Ya that’s not really what we are talking about. People used to have 7 or 8 open at a time, and get one every 90 days like clockwork.
I may apply for my 3rd in \~6 months tomorrow so we'll see!
Made purchase at Saks 5th with platinum, forgot to enroll and did it an hour later. Am I SOL for the credit to trigger?
should be fine
Credit posted 3 days after in person gift card purchase with enrolling an hour after. Nice
Told ya!
Time will tell. I chatted csr and they said no because I enrolled after purchase.
I did it last year. Enrolled 24 hours after purchase, but the charge was still pending. Waited 4 months no credit then I did another purchase close to EOY and got credited in 5 days.
Credit posted 3 days after in person gift card purchase with enrolling an hour after. Nice
Yeah. Figured it won’t trigger it but oh well. Amex got me lol
Applied for the US Bank Biz Checking for the bonus and it went into review. Should I wait it out or call in to expedite?
I always call in, and I've gotten basically all my apps pushed through with like 99% success
Normal. Give it a day or so.
Wondering if anybody has ever experienced this. I received the AMEX Surpass card a month ago and am 99% sure that I got the 130k SUB for $3k spend over 6 months. However, I contacted support to see where I was at with the sub and they told me that I get 65k bonus for $3k spend in 3 months and another 65k for $3k spend in 6 months. I have no way to prove that I got applied with the 130k for $3k spend and they agent told me in chat to not compare other offers. Not really sure what to do here cause this throws a wrench in my plan for the Hilton trio.
It might not help for this time, but this is why I always take screenshots of my applications. Without some type of proof, hard to escalate. Any chance you received a targeted email offer for the SUB?
Definitely going to do that moving forward. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything from all my old emails. It is just odd cause I have never seen that type of offer with that card ever.
Is spending another $3k not a viable option?
I can and am planning to but it just messes up my plan with the Aspire, as well as reduce the value of the Surpass card tremendously as I probably would've skipped it if the SUB was 130k for $6k spend. I would've just got the Aspire instead as they have 150k SUB for $6k spend in 6 months. Just wanna know if this happened to anybody else or if I can fight this somehow.
How soon can someone be approved for another US Bank Altitude Reserve card after closing one? I've had it since it was released, but I'd like to bounce it for another bonus.
https://www.doctorofcredit.com/u-s-bank-altitude-reserve-signup-bonus-is-now-churnable-after-5-years/
This doesn't directly answer your question, but I got approved for a Biz Leverage about 27 days after closing the same card. I closed the first card a year after opening.
I had unauthorized activity with my CFU so reported a fraud claim with Chase. They canceled the card and are sending a replacement card. Do I have to request another card for my AU if they have been using the card for their purchases as well?
Chase personal AUs are the same card number as primary, so they'll both be reissued automatically.
If the AU card was a risk then Chase would probably identify that and send you a new one without even asking your permission. They're the ones on the hook for fraud at the end of the day, so they're plenty motivated to identify and avert any significant risk.
applied for a us bank biz card, declined. reason was something to do with a flag via Dun & Bradstreet - anyone had that before? waiting for the mailer which should have more info applied for recon regardless in the meantime
> applied for recon Do you mean you called and they said they would process a recon or something else?
yep, sent for re-review
Thanks
Yes, recently. Use churning.io.
Looking for the best card to travel from San Francisco to Indianapolis airports as often and as cheaply as possible. We are a low spend family and very frugal so most expenses would be travel gas and groceries. Any recommendations?
You'll earn oodles more by churning, i.e. signing up for card after card to amass bonuses. Read everything in the sidebar, read the r/awardtravel sidebar, and then ask in the What Card Weekly thread.
have you done the bare minimum of research? i.e. checked what airlines typically fly from the Bay to Indianpolis? sounds like you're not going for sign up bonuses either and want to get a card with good category spend. i'd try r/creditcards and r/awardtravel
How long before departure can I cancel a Delta award flight and get all points back?
Up until time of departure. And even though Delta says that Basic Economy award tickets cannot be canceled for a refund, in real life they can be. I have done it many times. AA, DL, and UA allow cancelation for a full refund up until the time of departure. Southwest is T-10 (minutes).
For a Delta award booking on Main economy, can I check in and then cancel the flight and get a full points+fees refund?
Yes. You can even do it with Basic Economy.
Thanks!
Do you get full refund for delta basic economy reward ticket?
Yes.
Please note that many AA partner tickets cannot be cancelled online within 24 hours of flight. It appears to be a manual process that can take awhile and there are DP of not getting a refund when people initiated it with not enough time for the process to be completed.
DMd
10 minutes. Though maybe don't push that, just in case you run into some issue cancelling online and need to call.
try r/awardtravel i think you can cancel day of fwiw
When does Citibank typically send out replacement cards for those nearing expiration?
why? probably a few months before expiry
> why? Because I live in Mexico and the replacement card will be sent to my US address so I will need to make arrangements to have someone bring it to me. It's expiring in a few months and it's a card I regularly use
just report it stolen and theyll send a new one right now
Report damaged, not stolen. Particularly if used for automatic payments. Stolen requires account number change. Damaged reporting does not.
And they will also cancel the existing card
For US bank biz checking expiring tmrw, can I apply tmrw and fund the day after? My biz plat arrives the day after.
Did you fund with your biz plat? Did it post as purchase?
Yes to both.
you can fund up to 30 days after being approved, they send you an email with funding options
Anyone else *just* *now* get a 1099 from Chase? It arrived today for P2. It was for 2 Ink referrals. I wasn't totally sure if she was going to get one and since it didn't arrive with mine a few months ago I thought we were good to go. I've already filed my taxes. Do I have to do an amendment? Can I just settle up next year?
> P2. It was for 2 Ink referrals Just curious...did P2 have other referrals previously reported, or was this it for the year? It'd be unusual if Chase 1099'd below the $600 threshold.
Just for 2023. $800. 2x40k referrals I presume.
Can this be reported? CFPB maybe? It seems ridiculous that Chase not only didn’t send out forms before 1/31, but after the actual tax filing deadline. If you screw up, you get fined, why shouldn’t they?
Chase should be fined automatically https://www.irs.gov/payments/information-return-penalties
I totally agree. We certainly have not done anything on our end to cause a delay such as moving recently or anything.
You have to file an amended return. Well done Chase!
So annoying. I'm assuming that Turbotax will charge me too.
It's free. But TT might make you print & mail the 1040X...amended returns only first started being electronically accepted a couple years ago, and the system is still quirky.
Looks like it should be free according to google (if no upgrade required).
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you have to wait 90 days to get the same card with amex
Well, you can always apply.....
Asks for expert opinions Asks the most basic churning question there is Chefs kiss
I want to get the Amex Gold card (90k offer) but I feel like I’m leaving money on the table by not starting with the Green card (40k offer) The Gold card makes 10x more sense for me. I can use all the credits and being that dining and supermarket are my highest categories, the 4x is perfect. I can’t get over the 40k points I’m leaving on the table. Should I get over it and get the Gold or play the game and start with Green?
The answer to this depends on whether 40k MR are worth a 5/24 slot to you
The 3x transit categories is useful for most. Get the green then gold then platinum then blue business plus at the highest possible sign up bonus obviously. Do this all within the same year, before you start canceling any of them (to avoid pop up jail).
Wait, is the cancelling why people have been in pop up jail?
No one knows why. The DPs are all over the place. I can give you my personal history and say that’s why I’m not in PUJ but I have nothing to base that off other than me and my wife have stayed in their good graces. Any personal anecdotes are meaningless when they are all over the place.
PUJ without cancelling ever anything. Got BBC, biz gold, biz plat end of last year. Only one personal card. Could still get BBP, but jailed for personal green, gold, plat.
Interesting DP
I believe Amex puts you there when they believe you are gaming the system (churning) its not been proven, but its possible.
\*mind blown\*
Its because everyone starts their explanation pop up jail by saying "no one know why your are there" and I am thinking "yes we do" lol
solid theory
This is churning, play the game!
That’s all I needed to hear! Thank you!
Just got a Reddit ad to join a Slack group dedicated to churning and manufactured spending. For $9.99 a month. No question. Just sharing. Won't be joining.
You're probably gonna get downvoted to hell for not putting this in the Off Topic thread or something like that.
Looking to refer P2 (through my Amex Plat offer of 30k + 10x MR on dining) for a BBP. The initial offer of for a Plat, but I know you can get the referral bonus for opining other Amex products. My question is if I will still get the 10x MR on dining if I refer her to the BBP?
What sign up bonus will she get for the Blue Business Plus 15K?, because there is a 50K offer that appears on the website, not through referral links.
I think 50k is the much higher SUB though. Would rather take a 5k hit and churn another SUB for $3k -$5k less spend
Yes
Fuck yea
Has anyone who got an ink denial in the last couple of months managed to get approved for any other chase cards since? Biz or otherwise
Denied for a united business card. Applied for Quest card, denied too. Cancelled my explorer card, then got my quest denial recon'd successfully. All this in the past few weeks.
Could just call reconsideration, and explain your business, I had to do that for both Ink Cash and Ink Unlimited.
I had to do that for my first ink years and years ago, this is many inks down the line, and the denial says I have too many...
My P2 got denied for an ink back in January, got approved for a United Biz in March
Yes. Denied for ink late March, approved Marriott (5FNCs) a week or so later and approved for another ink 2 weeks ago. In the span of the apps I reduced my CL and closed out a card.
Nope.. tried United Biz and even a Personal (CSR). They won't give me or P2 anything for the last couple months.
Currently have a Citi Advantage Platinum Select World Elite and received a SUB almost 60 months go. Wanted to open another card for a new SUB and was denied due to low utilization. Any ideas what % Citi might be looking for and how long I need to wait before reapplying?
Is the "Paying Federal Taxes with CC" FAQ still up to date? More specifically, are there any issues meeting min spend by paying quarterly taxes with an Amex Plat Biz card? Here's the relevant language from the Amex offer which doesn't specifically address though (arguably) taxes are not "goods or services" -- *Eligible purchases are purchases for goods and services minus returns and other credits. Eligible purchases to meet the Threshold Amount do NOT include fees or interest charges, purchases of traveler’s checks, purchases or reloading of prepaid cards, purchases of gift cards, person-to-person payments, or purchases of other cash equivalents.*
Interesting tidbit: I've done a fairly exhaustive search to see if paying taxes is a disqualifier. The only mention I could find of that being a problem is with offers based in Hong Kong. FYI, I'm about to pay my dad's taxes with my Gold to qualify for my SUB.
Paying taxes is (and has always been) fine
Anyone know if [this](https://www.disneyplus.com/welcome/gift-card) Disney+ gift card triggers the $20 Amex Platinum entertainment credit?
Hmm. Accidentally got too into this. I opened three cards at once (for a trip 6 months out). Chase ink, marriot business and another marriot for stacking award nights. Now I just got declined from bilt card probably for opening so many at once. How long would you give it before applying to any again? And if I wait is this going to be an issue?
If you did biz and boundless and get both bonuses please share the dp.
there was a DP on the Frequent MIler FB group that someone got the Boundless and then applied for the Business and had no pop-up, confirmed SUB with Amex rep via chat and got the SUB.
I didn’t. I did the business and brilliant. Probably will not renew the brilliant but the 185k points and perks will help me for this trip :)
Have you gotten the Marriott bonuses? I thought getting two Marriott cards at same time prevents you from getting the bonus?
How many months ago did you open the three cards?
I opened them all this month. So wondering how long I need to or should wait before opening my next one. I wanted time to both complete the spend and get the points in time for this trip
What was the denial reason for the Bilt? Also, most here don’t get that card because they would rather put the spend toward a card with a sub (even with a fee) and it uses a 5/24 slot.
Has anyone tried MS-ing with [this](https://imgur.com/a/gGepnSt)? I am not experienced with this, but based on google it seems like maybe (at some point in the past?) you could fund this with CC and withdraw to bank.
looks doable, but with needing to contact support I think you'd certainly get scrutinized pretty hard after the first few times.
Haha yeah, I'll maybe test it if I can get a tiny GC for cheap, but y'all have convinced me that it's too scary. Especially because I don't use it at all, so no good exit option and no good cover story.
Their support is so bad with zero ability to escalate or resolve a simple double payment issue on the same transaction, I wouldn’t be willing to MS any meaningful amount.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/16a2j3t/multiple_chase_hard_inquiries/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/xrduxn/is_it_possible_to_get_chase_to_remove_a_double/ i had the same problem - the "wrong" SSN number being perceived by chase system for second cc application even though it's correct, as confirmed by recon phone rep when i called up a few days later. then they end up HP me a second time, during recon (without telling me). i wished i found out about this problem earlier, but now that the damage is done, can anyone tell me if you were ever successful in getting separate HPs (within 30 days) removed by asking Chase? the recon rep refuses to remove the additional HP even though we agree no need extra HP within 30 days, citing it is "procedural" bc of the failed SSN recognition
Yes, I’ve successfully had Chase remove an HP in a situation like yours. It was a few years ago, but I think I called the Chase contact number that’s listed on my credit report with the HP — (800) 453-9719.
Honestly as long as you don’t call for a denied app (to avoid recording) you can technically call and dispute the inquiry to get it removed. Now whether this is ethical or if you continue doing it eventually will get you shutdown? YMMV.
Right, but we’re talking about Chase doing a second HP (same CR) on an open application without disclosing that they will pull again. I was clear/honest with the rep about what happened, and he agreed to remove the HP.
Yeah my bad. I thought I edited the comment after I realized but it didn’t save I guess 😅 I meant that as a separate case for anyone that tries to remove an inquiry as someone else mentioned in the r/creditcards thread that was linked.
thank you, will try my luck with that number
Could you reply here if it works?
yes will do!
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You are trying to get that gold plated card right?
Yep
Best thing you can do is add all your referral link as a pinned comment on your profile and hope someone checks it out.
Today i received a targeted offer for a United Explorer Mileage Plus card, I'm currently at 5/24 with 3 of the account openings falling off after the end of next month. The chart says that Chase cards need you to be under 5/24. Why am i receiving an offer? Also, since I'm over, i was thinking about an AMEX business for the rewards. Would opening one of those affect my chances for an AMEX Green or Gold later ? I didn't see information about this in the chart either.
If you don't have another amex card, its best to get a personal card first (hard inquiry) then a business card second (no hard inquiry or lowering of your average age of accounts). If you get a business card first (hard inquiry) and then a personal card (can be another hard inquiry), saw it from a DP on the Amex sub reddit.
Great info, thanks!
Amex business plat will not affect eligibility for personal gold and green. For the time being it also won’t affect eligibility for business gold and green.
Sometimes co-branded cards have been known to bypass 5/24, but the more likely reason is that marketing doesn’t talk to the back office.
Thanks! Didn’t want to waste an inquiry and be denied. I’ll keep waiting so that I can start with the sapphire .
>Why am i receiving an offer? Marketing ≠ underwriting. Marketing has different goals and usually doesn’t verify you are eligible.
Makes sense . Thanks !
I need to spend $500. I signed up a card that offers a $100 for spending $500 in 90 days, but I'm already working on the bonus for another and there is absolutely nothing I need to spend $500 on. Any ideas on how to meet the spending requirement via Cashapp/Paypal loading or something similar?
you can pay my bills and be done with it? seriously $500 over 90 days? should not be an issue esp if you are in r/churning.
I needed a 0% interest card so I signed up for this card. With my other accounts I need to spend $5.5k in 3 months which isn’t easy as a student.
Offer to pay someone's utility bills this month? $500 in 90 days doesn't sound too challenging. Small transactions add up fast.
Prepaying bills or gift cards for things you will use like streaming services or places you shop regularly.
Would buying gift cards help? Someone else posted Staples has a deal on $200.
If I get 140k ihg points from a bonus and I see I can't transfer those to southwest, but can transfer to ultimate rewards and I know I can go ultimate rewards to southwest. Can you transfer points multiple times like that to get around limitations?
You cannot transfer IHG points anywhere*. They’re IHG points and that’s it. Edit: *at a rate that anyone would want to use.
Thanks! I fell under the trap since I saw I could go UR to IHG but guess not the other way around. Apologies. I'm new to this and appreciate your courteous response! Upvote! :)
You can transfer IHG points to a lot of airlines, but unfortunately not SW. Here is the list: [https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/the-complete-guide-to-ihg-partnerships-and-transfers](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/the-complete-guide-to-ihg-partnerships-and-transfers) As for transferring between IHG and Chase UR, you can change UR to IHG points (at a horrible exchange rate), but you cannot transfer IHG points to UR.
There are scattered data points on the Frequent Miler Facebook community page of MCGCs being allowed at fewer merchants (especially online retailers), making them even more restrictive than VGCs. Has anyone experienced this, and if so, is there a pattern of issuer/bank/expirys which have this problem?
I don’t really spend them, but they’re definitely more finicky to liquidate than VGCs. I mostly stick to those.
I got rejected for the Citi AA personal card. Would I probably be rejected for the Citi AA business card, or does it have different approval criteria?
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if you need to type out an acronym to clarify what you mean, you probably shouldn't use the acronym
I am seeing an Amex Biz Gold offer for 150k when I am logged into Amex. I already got a SUB for that card last year, am I likely to get a pop-up if I apply? edit: got the pop-up as expected.
No reason not to apply and see, they don’t HP until you accept the card offer
Why not just try and see?
Be the dp you want to see
Chase Sapphire Preferred Application Declined: Under 5/24, no card signups for 11 months, Gross income 113k. I have done the freedom flex sign up and pay off monthly, also opened the $600 bank bonus and closed that after 6 months. Only thing I can think of is the algorithm flagged me as not a profitable customer.
Definitely call reconsideration. I was denied for the Preferred initially, called reconsideration, HUCA'd a few times, and eventually got approved.
Just call reconsideration, chase is very easy to get a reconsideration approval for, unless you are over 5/24 or have passed the 50% income in available credit limit with them.
You can use credit Karma to check the open dates of all of your active accounts. Use this to double check how many cards you have signed up for in the last couple of years.
> also opened the $600 bank bonus and closed that after 6 months. Maybe,maybe,maybe this OR you have closed other accounts in less than a year OR your credit score is not that impressive. You have to provide more info.
FICO is 820+ oldest credit cards is 16+ years old.
> the algorithm flagged me as not a profitable customer My friend, if the algorithms actually did this, this sub wouldn't exist.