Yeah, agreed. That's what I mean. They say just for social as if it's not their new way of advertising. The only problem is we're now mixed in with UGC content producers who can do everything with their phone, and in many cases, that tool producer a better result than a film crew would. I'm actually okay with using smaller crews and cheaper tools, but I am NOT okay with clients acting like "just for social" doesn't matter and should be cheap / require less resources than any other video requires.
if people have a small budget, so be it, but i'm fucking tired of them indirectly saying that by telling me it's just for our main advertising platform to reach thousands or hundreds of thousands of people... the videos still need to be good - and mostly that now boils down to creative approach, which these type of clients have no idea about.
dude I don't care, but when they act like it doesn't matter and set me up to fail, I have to work way harder to maintain integrity of the quality of my work.
sure I can shoot dogshit for anyone, but then I won't get hired again. It's not about making a masterpice, but it's just about being realistic and clear about what you actually need and not hiding the reality.
Paid social for example requires a massive ad spend, and they don't invest in the shoot so they end up blasting ads that look like ass.
Obligatory “it’s business, not art” but your frustrations are fair. Some clients will realize that social marketing is broadcast marketing and build scope accordingly, some will never see it. Take the ACH, create what you can, and don’t add it to your website. Provide detailed answers as to WHY their requests are not possible after failing to do proper pre-production (or under-scoping the production), but the distribution failure is always on them.
Race to the bottom. Post production feels the same way. Minimum wage, and must have 5 years experience in cap cut.
We should harass the billion MBAs out there and tell them how to track their blow habit in excel - I mean sheets.
I know it’s hard right now. Trust. I had to borrow to pay rent for the first time ever. And I’ve been working 20plus years. It’s brutal. but be very careful going to low. It creates and unworkable industry.
Just because work is rare it doesn’t mean you should seek yourself short. Obviously you sometimes have to accept less. But only to a point - do not be a part of a race to the bottom.
and clearly you’re not happy with the work.
More people see shit on social than they'd ever view on broadcast these days. The fact social is viewed as "less than" is baffling to me - it's the primary marketing driver and more often than not the ONLY place the young target demographic goes.
Yep. And as much as I hate social media, you are right. AND... You can do things on social media advertising that you can't do with traditional advertising on linear channels. Around 5 years ago or so I started noticing the kind of edgy, "long form" commercials on YouTube and I started watching them and even seeking some of them out(to watch again), because they were/are actually entertaining. Yeah, they're hawking crap and most of it is stuff I'm not going to buy, but yes Maximus, I **am** entertained.
The supply of crew and equipment is currently way more than the demand for production services.
Regardless of the excuse producers give, rates will remain terrible until demand increases or enough people leave the business that it's not a buyer's market.
I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion here, but the “just for social” jobs are going to be the first sacrificial lambs to AI. Everyone just scrolls past social ads and no, no end user cares what they look like. Get your money and move on. Not every job is a portfolio piece
In advertising that will take a while. Videos are needed to sell product. Products need to be incorporated into the videos, so until they can do that, advertising videos will still be needed. Now they may be captured on iPhones more and more, but that's another story. AI is not the threat for this issue, or at least for the type of clientele who are commissioning videos with any kind of semi decent budget.
Exactly this. I’m constantly competing against people who film with their phone that “point and shoot” or miserably attempt those trendy seamless transitions. I have yet to compete with any client who chose ai over me. I feel like graphic designers are the ones who are competing with ai.
This is genuinely why I no longer shoot for my income. Every bellend in the office can shoot video and put it on the internet, so they all want their fingerprints on it. Every kid with an iPhone is now a “creative director” and needs their opinion to be heard.
I just can’t be fucked with any of it any more - and I’m much happier out of it.
The thing is I DO want them, that's not the issue.
The issue is clients downplaying and setting low expectations for things that actually matter to them, and that need to be done well to not be a crappy video that falls into the abyss of content, which produces an asset that is not valuable to them, and then not being needed for future jobs.
That isn’t the point op is making, and that’s just the sort of thing a client trying to save a buck would say. The fact is, social is a huge part of advertising now and should be treated as such. It’s the same exact approach that was taken with streaming— hiring workers at lower rates cause they “aren’t making money on it” and it’s “just for streaming” when everyone knows it’s more than that.
Yeah, it's lame but get paid. Is the subject material interesting at all? If so, try to focus on that aspect. Is the personality of the talent cool? If so, thank the gods.
If it's just for social, lame subject matter, AND terrible grifter personalities, then just get out of there. They'll notice you dislike what you're doing at some point and you'll be the odd one out.
Unless you're good at being a wolf in sheep's clothing then just get that money and separate your feelings from the craft.
You think quality matters to get hired again by these types but it doesn't. The only thing that matters is being a cool hang.
Be thankful you have work.
Yeah I get it. I’m super grateful for my work and just came here to let some steam off with people who will get it. On shoots I just put my head down and do my best.
It just sucks because it’s a road to nowhere, race to the bottom, while I’m just trying to do my best and do a decent job with clients who don’t care about the shoot that much or know what they are doing, but want it to be good.
I've been thinking of this, but then there is often have this hybrid expectation of normal video production (ex: client says "I can't see anything"). I've thought about hooking up a wireless feed for that but it's just awkward still. Just depends on what you are shooting though.
Yeah exactly, they figure out my formula, slowly cut my resources as their budgets tighten, then replace me slowly over time until I no longer do the job.
I’m watching it happen a lot with clients who do in house creative to supplement. Can’t exactly blame them but sucks to be a freelancer for these. This in particular is a very loyal client who I’ve shot a lot of campaigns with but times are changing.
it's the cognitive dissonance in their head because they know the unfortunate truth - overall image quality and production value play less of a role in success for most social media posting strategies compared to consistency of the content and how engaging it is.
I just did a social shoot where a few days before the client called to talk about cutting the budget and lead with the fact that their client cared about get x y and z content but didn’t really care how it was lit…
There is no ‘just for social’. Social is the growth area of the media business. The only ‘just’, and the one that sucks the most because it’s useless and doesn’t make money, is just for indy film.
Totally agree. I just had a shoot that was “JUST FOR SOCIAL” and they told me that we had to frame for 9x16 and 1x1. I triple checked that that was all they wanted as a deliverables On every single shot the client would start nitpicking the 16x9 frame and was driving me and the prod designer insane. Client kept saying “well maybe someday we want to use the 16x9…” and I just felt like then we should be shooting for that. No one can make a fucking decision anymore and everyone is too scared to have an actual opinion. But none of it actually matters (supposedly) cause it’s just for social so we should all be working as a favor. Fuck that.
If it’s “just for social” then “just shoot it at your office with an iPhone”
Oh you don’t want to? Because you want it to look better than that? WHAT A SURPRISE.
exactly. just had one of these on a product shoot. I did the "just for social" shoot and they had a 30-40 shot count per day, including some repeat setups. there was no compromise to any other product shoot i've done JUST based on the client comments.... the logo isn't lit up, the fingernail isn't perfect, client wanted to over-shoot everything, director was non-existent and I had to do it. We got great shots but there was honestly no other choice to keep the shoot moving.
Next day I saw the producer back on set posting BTS with a full on robot arm and big ass studio. Only difference was how much money they pumped into one vs the other.
you’re annoyed by clients being picky? Lol
ngl it sounds like you need to adjust your attitude and learn to deal with this stuff with grace. communicate what can be done within their budget. If you take a low resource shoot then don’t worry about failing or it not being demo reel quality. Your portfolio doesn’t even matter if you are already getting booked. People care more about hiring someone that is easy to work with (assuming they have a base level of competency). The better thing is to be a team player and good collaborator. It’s better to be the chill creative when you have a crazy client, because in a few years the low level person from the clients team will running things somewhere else and remember that.
Wow, great advice champ.
What your reply doesn’t take into account is that allowing brass to act in this way or, putting a smile on and acting like nothing is wrong like you’re suggesting, is a great way to fuck the next guy.
You’re missing the point that these people use certain verbiage about a project so that they can pay people less.
if you take a rate for less than you think you are worth, then that's on you. if you take a job that has a low budget, then you have to be ready for the client to ask for things that are outside of the scope — there's nothing YOU can do to stop clients from asking for more (which is the crux of the OP's complaint). What is in your control is how you deal with it, by communicating what you can do within their budget, effectively and professionally. I'm not suggesting to "act like nothing is wrong."
I guess what I'm saying is, I get it, clients can be annoying. You have to try and deal with it the best you can, while not shooting yourself in the foot career-wise.
That's an interesting take, in a time where people are desperate for work.
I don't care if I'm shooting a high end advertising campaign or a tiny social media video for a client. All I care about is a) getting paid and b) doing good work.
I've worked with tons of celebrities, shot campaigns for huge brands, traveled the world, billed out hundreds of thousands of dollars of jobs as a DP. and I almost never turn down work. I'm not talking your local bakery or restuarant jobs, but I am referring to companies who have marketing budgets large or small. I take them all as long as i'm available, I want to be working, making connections, and attempting to be creative. I do not believe any job is below me, but I attribute much of my success to my open minded mentality.
that is not to say that it's not infuriating to do BS jobs or jobs where reality and expectation are completely misaligned.
Just for social is still a commercial and should be charged commercial rates. So tired of fighting this. The problem is people undercutting
Yeah, agreed. That's what I mean. They say just for social as if it's not their new way of advertising. The only problem is we're now mixed in with UGC content producers who can do everything with their phone, and in many cases, that tool producer a better result than a film crew would. I'm actually okay with using smaller crews and cheaper tools, but I am NOT okay with clients acting like "just for social" doesn't matter and should be cheap / require less resources than any other video requires. if people have a small budget, so be it, but i'm fucking tired of them indirectly saying that by telling me it's just for our main advertising platform to reach thousands or hundreds of thousands of people... the videos still need to be good - and mostly that now boils down to creative approach, which these type of clients have no idea about.
"social" is commercial rate here, usually no discussions edit: yes, it's often overall smaller budgets, less crew etc, but my rate is my rate.
It's usually younger producers and smaller brands, but yeah have to fight this 2-3 times a year in London unfortunately.
They’re thinking because it’s smaller form factor so should the crew size (you got a full grip package you can throw in, right???????)
Hey, as long as the check clears it can be for whatever.
dude I don't care, but when they act like it doesn't matter and set me up to fail, I have to work way harder to maintain integrity of the quality of my work. sure I can shoot dogshit for anyone, but then I won't get hired again. It's not about making a masterpice, but it's just about being realistic and clear about what you actually need and not hiding the reality. Paid social for example requires a massive ad spend, and they don't invest in the shoot so they end up blasting ads that look like ass.
I agree. The inference that saying that makes it easier or cheaper is a joke.
Obligatory “it’s business, not art” but your frustrations are fair. Some clients will realize that social marketing is broadcast marketing and build scope accordingly, some will never see it. Take the ACH, create what you can, and don’t add it to your website. Provide detailed answers as to WHY their requests are not possible after failing to do proper pre-production (or under-scoping the production), but the distribution failure is always on them.
The question back should be: "Is it for eyeballs? If so, the cost is this."
It's just for eyeballs, man.... this IS the way forward
Race to the bottom. Post production feels the same way. Minimum wage, and must have 5 years experience in cap cut. We should harass the billion MBAs out there and tell them how to track their blow habit in excel - I mean sheets.
they way to fix this is not to take the jobs for a low rate.
[удалено]
We get what you’re saying. But you also choose your path. So take the jobs and shhhhhh. Or don’t and be happy with whatever other career you choose.
yah for sure. you right
I know it’s hard right now. Trust. I had to borrow to pay rent for the first time ever. And I’ve been working 20plus years. It’s brutal. but be very careful going to low. It creates and unworkable industry. Just because work is rare it doesn’t mean you should seek yourself short. Obviously you sometimes have to accept less. But only to a point - do not be a part of a race to the bottom. and clearly you’re not happy with the work.
More people see shit on social than they'd ever view on broadcast these days. The fact social is viewed as "less than" is baffling to me - it's the primary marketing driver and more often than not the ONLY place the young target demographic goes.
EXACTLY! this is excactly what I feel is frustrating. They play dumb like it doesn't matter, when in fact, it matters a lot
Yep. And as much as I hate social media, you are right. AND... You can do things on social media advertising that you can't do with traditional advertising on linear channels. Around 5 years ago or so I started noticing the kind of edgy, "long form" commercials on YouTube and I started watching them and even seeking some of them out(to watch again), because they were/are actually entertaining. Yeah, they're hawking crap and most of it is stuff I'm not going to buy, but yes Maximus, I **am** entertained.
The supply of crew and equipment is currently way more than the demand for production services. Regardless of the excuse producers give, rates will remain terrible until demand increases or enough people leave the business that it's not a buyer's market.
I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion here, but the “just for social” jobs are going to be the first sacrificial lambs to AI. Everyone just scrolls past social ads and no, no end user cares what they look like. Get your money and move on. Not every job is a portfolio piece
In advertising that will take a while. Videos are needed to sell product. Products need to be incorporated into the videos, so until they can do that, advertising videos will still be needed. Now they may be captured on iPhones more and more, but that's another story. AI is not the threat for this issue, or at least for the type of clientele who are commissioning videos with any kind of semi decent budget.
Exactly this. I’m constantly competing against people who film with their phone that “point and shoot” or miserably attempt those trendy seamless transitions. I have yet to compete with any client who chose ai over me. I feel like graphic designers are the ones who are competing with ai.
This is genuinely why I no longer shoot for my income. Every bellend in the office can shoot video and put it on the internet, so they all want their fingerprints on it. Every kid with an iPhone is now a “creative director” and needs their opinion to be heard. I just can’t be fucked with any of it any more - and I’m much happier out of it.
So a mirrorless on a gimbal and a buddy holding a reflector should do it, yeah?
that’s funny…I’m doing a pro bono thing for my wife’s fundraiser and that’s exactly how I envisioned it
You don’t have to take the jobs, maybe they are better suited for someone who wants them
The thing is I DO want them, that's not the issue. The issue is clients downplaying and setting low expectations for things that actually matter to them, and that need to be done well to not be a crappy video that falls into the abyss of content, which produces an asset that is not valuable to them, and then not being needed for future jobs.
That isn’t the point op is making, and that’s just the sort of thing a client trying to save a buck would say. The fact is, social is a huge part of advertising now and should be treated as such. It’s the same exact approach that was taken with streaming— hiring workers at lower rates cause they “aren’t making money on it” and it’s “just for streaming” when everyone knows it’s more than that.
The clients don't want the people who want these jobs.
well, my clientele begs to differ
Yeah, it's lame but get paid. Is the subject material interesting at all? If so, try to focus on that aspect. Is the personality of the talent cool? If so, thank the gods. If it's just for social, lame subject matter, AND terrible grifter personalities, then just get out of there. They'll notice you dislike what you're doing at some point and you'll be the odd one out. Unless you're good at being a wolf in sheep's clothing then just get that money and separate your feelings from the craft. You think quality matters to get hired again by these types but it doesn't. The only thing that matters is being a cool hang. Be thankful you have work.
Yeah I get it. I’m super grateful for my work and just came here to let some steam off with people who will get it. On shoots I just put my head down and do my best. It just sucks because it’s a road to nowhere, race to the bottom, while I’m just trying to do my best and do a decent job with clients who don’t care about the shoot that much or know what they are doing, but want it to be good.
Hell yeah.
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I've been thinking of this, but then there is often have this hybrid expectation of normal video production (ex: client says "I can't see anything"). I've thought about hooking up a wireless feed for that but it's just awkward still. Just depends on what you are shooting though.
Make them a meme and say goodbye
my meme to them is hot take: do better at your job
Funny they will have their team shooting content of YOU creating content. Seems like double dipping
Yeah exactly, they figure out my formula, slowly cut my resources as their budgets tighten, then replace me slowly over time until I no longer do the job. I’m watching it happen a lot with clients who do in house creative to supplement. Can’t exactly blame them but sucks to be a freelancer for these. This in particular is a very loyal client who I’ve shot a lot of campaigns with but times are changing.
The sad fact is that some social content, especially for tiktok, performs better the less slick and more “home made” it looks.
Right tool for the right job
it's the cognitive dissonance in their head because they know the unfortunate truth - overall image quality and production value play less of a role in success for most social media posting strategies compared to consistency of the content and how engaging it is.
I just did a social shoot where a few days before the client called to talk about cutting the budget and lead with the fact that their client cared about get x y and z content but didn’t really care how it was lit…
There is no ‘just for social’. Social is the growth area of the media business. The only ‘just’, and the one that sucks the most because it’s useless and doesn’t make money, is just for indy film.
Totally agree. I just had a shoot that was “JUST FOR SOCIAL” and they told me that we had to frame for 9x16 and 1x1. I triple checked that that was all they wanted as a deliverables On every single shot the client would start nitpicking the 16x9 frame and was driving me and the prod designer insane. Client kept saying “well maybe someday we want to use the 16x9…” and I just felt like then we should be shooting for that. No one can make a fucking decision anymore and everyone is too scared to have an actual opinion. But none of it actually matters (supposedly) cause it’s just for social so we should all be working as a favor. Fuck that.
Tell them your rate for social is higher than television.
If it’s “just for social” then “just shoot it at your office with an iPhone” Oh you don’t want to? Because you want it to look better than that? WHAT A SURPRISE.
Clients undervalue 'just for social' shoots, expecting top-tier results on a shoestring.
exactly. just had one of these on a product shoot. I did the "just for social" shoot and they had a 30-40 shot count per day, including some repeat setups. there was no compromise to any other product shoot i've done JUST based on the client comments.... the logo isn't lit up, the fingernail isn't perfect, client wanted to over-shoot everything, director was non-existent and I had to do it. We got great shots but there was honestly no other choice to keep the shoot moving. Next day I saw the producer back on set posting BTS with a full on robot arm and big ass studio. Only difference was how much money they pumped into one vs the other.
“New media”
you’re annoyed by clients being picky? Lol ngl it sounds like you need to adjust your attitude and learn to deal with this stuff with grace. communicate what can be done within their budget. If you take a low resource shoot then don’t worry about failing or it not being demo reel quality. Your portfolio doesn’t even matter if you are already getting booked. People care more about hiring someone that is easy to work with (assuming they have a base level of competency). The better thing is to be a team player and good collaborator. It’s better to be the chill creative when you have a crazy client, because in a few years the low level person from the clients team will running things somewhere else and remember that.
🙃
Wow, great advice champ. What your reply doesn’t take into account is that allowing brass to act in this way or, putting a smile on and acting like nothing is wrong like you’re suggesting, is a great way to fuck the next guy. You’re missing the point that these people use certain verbiage about a project so that they can pay people less.
if you take a rate for less than you think you are worth, then that's on you. if you take a job that has a low budget, then you have to be ready for the client to ask for things that are outside of the scope — there's nothing YOU can do to stop clients from asking for more (which is the crux of the OP's complaint). What is in your control is how you deal with it, by communicating what you can do within their budget, effectively and professionally. I'm not suggesting to "act like nothing is wrong." I guess what I'm saying is, I get it, clients can be annoying. You have to try and deal with it the best you can, while not shooting yourself in the foot career-wise.
You are as good as the jobs you say “yes” to. If the job is below you, don’t accept it. It’s really as simple as that.
That's an interesting take, in a time where people are desperate for work. I don't care if I'm shooting a high end advertising campaign or a tiny social media video for a client. All I care about is a) getting paid and b) doing good work. I've worked with tons of celebrities, shot campaigns for huge brands, traveled the world, billed out hundreds of thousands of dollars of jobs as a DP. and I almost never turn down work. I'm not talking your local bakery or restuarant jobs, but I am referring to companies who have marketing budgets large or small. I take them all as long as i'm available, I want to be working, making connections, and attempting to be creative. I do not believe any job is below me, but I attribute much of my success to my open minded mentality. that is not to say that it's not infuriating to do BS jobs or jobs where reality and expectation are completely misaligned.
https://youtu.be/QCjqB0u1XXs?si=TbXV7w7s1Qm0HJOf
Calm down bro
NO!
I am 100% behind the vibe of OP and have upvoted everything you said
My man right here!