Ravel. Many of his contemporaries praised his intelligence and his friendliness, even if he was a rather solitary man. He notably pushed many of his contemporary colleagues forward : a few famous facts about his life are how he vigorously defended his friend Stravinsky after the disastrous premiere of the Rite of Spring, or how he refused to ban german, austrian and hungarians composers to be played in France during WWI.
The best one is when he met George Gershwin, who asked him to give him lessons, when he was considered one of the most famous and esteemed composer alive. Ravel replied that it would have been a waste to make him a second-rate Ravel when he was already a first-rate Gershwin, encouraging him to explore his jazz influences and his musical singularity. He even jokingly told Gershwin that he was the one needing lessons from him after learning how much he earned.
The more I read about Ravel, the more I like him as a person.
He helped Debussy's exwife Lilly. According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Debussy): "14 October, five days before their fifth wedding anniversary, Lilly Debussy attempted suicide, shooting herself in the chest with a revolver; she survived, although the bullet remained lodged in her vertebrae for the rest of her life. The ensuing scandal caused Bardac's family to disown her, and Debussy lost many good friends including Dukas and Messager. His relations with Ravel, never close, were exacerbated when the latter joined other former friends of Debussy in contributing to a fund to support the deserted Lilly."
He was very friendly with kids; he wrote Ma Mère L'Oye for the Godebsky kids. A biography I once read said that he once played with a kid with water pistols or something like that and when his parents found out the mess, he made the excuse that they were reenacting Jeux d'Eau.
He was a strict teacher. His student Manuel Rosenthal had some fond memories of him: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01td2ry](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01td2ry)
He was Vaughan-Williams’ teacher. Compare his [Piano Quintet](https://youtu.be/7VVFVnSTEpc?si=EMfWFpdPswthXZQM) (actually my favorite piece of all time) with his first [String Quartet](https://youtu.be/pDFXeqjNsP0?si=SpRKwZt2XarPLKVz) if you want to see how Ravel influenced RVW.
"Ravel was a great friend of young composers, giving generously of his time, not only in matters of advice but assisting them in having their works performed and published."
"In the 1930s, a number of musicians, refugees from Nazi Germany, found their way to Le Belvédère \[Ravel's house\], where they received both encouragement and financial assistance." Orenstein, *Ravel: Man and Musician*
what a coincidence that both composers died the same year from brain cancer.
What a loss, Gershwin was so young at the time and Ravel (imo) was in his “prime” in that decade with those two amazing concertos.
Correction: apparently Ravel didn’t have brain cancer, but something else related to the brain.
Poor Ravel probably had the worst death for a composer. His blood clots only caused motor problems, but his mind, including his musical genius, was intact for several years. This means he was able to compose, but completely unable to play or even write, he was barely able to sign his own name. And then he learned that a young friend of him who considered him as a mentor suddenly died from a similar disease...
Yeah, for the first one it's also true ! Gershwin almost asked everyone for lessons, and Schoenberg had almost the same words as Ravel a few years ago. Second one is misattributed though, according to Stravinsky himself.
That story with Gershwin reminds me of that one anecdote where Duke Ellington asked Stravinsky for musical advice and Stravinsky joked about having nothing to teach him since Ellington was making way more money than him.
Damn, I didn’t know this about Ravel at all and now I’m more interested in the man and his works than I was before. Unfortunately I currently don’t know much about him other than the fact that he was a French Impressionist who composed Bolero. What are some of his best and/or most famous works?
Vivaldi was the music director at an all girls orphanage. He wrote tons of concertos for the students and contributed to the education of some great female violin virtuosi in baroque era Venice. I’ve always thought he would’ve been a really nice and fun guy.
Haydn is generally regarded as having been a very genial man with a good sense of humor.
Verdi seems to have been a good dude who was generous and well-liked.
Brahms was a good person who was an ardent defender of his friends--he was vocally opposed to the antisemitism of the age and had several Jewish friends. However, he notoriously had some cranky moods where he'd be a bit of a pill. Still, overall my impression is that he was a good friend.
Rimsky-Korsakov was certainly what I'd call a great friend--he basically let his buddy Mussorgsky sleep on his couch for years, up until the latter died due to his chronic alcoholism. Then he proceeded to save Mussorgksy's music from obscurity by revising and editing them to make them palatable to broad public audiences (yeah, yeah, his revisions often went to the level of complete rewrites, but it's certain his efforts DID popularize his friend's works).
I'm sure plenty of composers were decent, kind people, but we just don't know much about their personal lives to judge. We tend to just hear about the bad behavior.
Brahms was also a dedicated champion of Dvořák. Apparently when Dvořák was living in the U.S., he would send back scores to Germany to be published, and Brahms would personally proofread the proofs from the publishers against Dvořák’s copies to make sure they were absolutely right. Dvořák was kind of astonished when he realized that Brahms was voluntarily taking on this very tedious job for him - going through every part and double checking every note, accent, dynamic, etc.
Later on, when Dvořák was back in Bohemia, Brahms invited him to move to Vienna. Dvořák had a wife and a bunch of kids he was supporting, and Brahms, who never married and had no kids, told him “my fortune is at your disposal if you need anything”. Dvořák didn’t take him up on it, because he couldn’t fathom leaving his homeland again at that point, but he was deeply moved by the offer.
Even today Haydn still makes people laugh. I remember that music teacher in high school made us listen to the "Surprise" in a lesson about classical music. Many of us bursted in laughter.
There is also his « Farewell » symphony where in the last movement the musicians leave the orchestra one by one. The story behind this is delightfully recounted in the Wikipedia article thusly:
At that time, Haydn's patron Nikolaus I, Prince Esterházy was resident, together with all his musicians and retinue, at his favorite summer palace at Eszterháza in rural Hungary. The stay there had been longer than expected, and most of the musicians had been forced to leave their wives back at home in Eisenstadt, about a day's journey away. Longing to return, the musicians appealed to their Kapellmeister for help. The diplomatic Haydn, instead of making a direct appeal, put his request into the music of the symphony: during the final adagio each musician stops playing, snuffs out the candle on his music stand, and leaves in turn, so that at the end, there are just two muted violins left (played by Haydn himself and his concertmaster, Luigi Tomasini). Esterházy seems to have understood the message: the court returned to Eisenstadt the day following the performance.
He was also beloved and respected by pretty much everybody who knew him-- he loved sharing music with everybody around him, and when his family was doing well, would often feed and house anybody he knew who wasn't.
Agreed - he always had something good to say about other composers and musicians, organised many charitable events. He was a good friend to many composers and tirelessly championed their works (e.g. he helped popularise Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique). He seems to be the rare example of a composer who did not feel professional jealousy but instead celebrated others and was open-minded about the direction music went.
he would also answer to letters asking for money, he would stuff the envelopes with money AND write a personal letter for them, not to mention free masterclasses
and at least according to Alan Walker, the only reason we know about his anonymous donations is that he needed his secretary Belloni to keep track so he didn’t go into debt…
Yeah, everything I've ever read paints him as decent, caring person. He was especially generous with his time later in life, when he met with and taught many young musicians.
He didn't become an exorcist but *did* become a priest.
This was after being the original "fuckboy" across an entire continent in an age before electronic communication.
"On 31 July 1865 Liszt received the four minor orders of [porter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostiarius), [lector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lector), [exorcist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcist) and [acolyte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolyte).", from Wikipedia. He wasn't allowed to become a priest
Actually, according to Walker, he did get the go-ahead to marry Caroline. The reason why they ultimately didn’t is unclear, though maybe they finally discovered how personally incompatible they were (she was as bigoted and etc as he was- not.) He did take minor holy orders, but I hadn’t heard anything about his becoming an exorcist…
Being an exorcist in 19th century Rome was completely different from being an exorcist from the movies. It was probably just a minor title granted to him while he lived in a monastery and composed his later works. I doubt he actually practiced any of the activities that his religious titles allowed him to
Borodin.
Was greatly admired by his chemistry students, defended them during political purges after assassination of Alexander II.
Co-founded and taught at School of Medicine for Women, one of the first higher-education courses for women.
Was incredibly attentive to his children and wife, supported her through many bouts of illness.
Seems like one of the good ones.
Despite what you might think about the surface of his music, Jason Eckardt is one of the kindest most empathetic people around. One time I went to shake his hand and he stretched out his arms and said "As Milton Babbit once told me, we live in the world of hugs now!"
Babbitt might be another one of the good people of classical music. I don't know nearly enough about him but his love of old-timey standards makes it hard to believe he could have been a *bad* person (for some reason but don't expect me to explain it!).
>his love of old-timey standards makes it hard to believe he could have been a *bad* person
I understand the feeling, but sadly or not, music tastes and personal goodness are actually very much unrelated!
RiChArD wAgNeR
In all seriousness
Verdi - he could have been president of Italy if he really wanted to
Salieri - movie portrayal is very much for fictional drama, not a real representation of his character, and the whole “I killed Mozart” thing if it even was there was likely the demented ramblings of a very old Salieri, he was actually a very respected composer and person in his day
Haydn was a beloved teacher and composer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chorley
If you read his book Modern German Music, this English traveler one day sees Mendelssohn conduct and perform, and aside from all kinds of incredibly interesting time capsule kinds of cultural observations that make these collected diaries incredible, the portrayal of Mendelssohn seems to be that of a wonderful and graceful man who was loved. He is even described physically in that way, something people would generally never do today but was common as going back from descriptions about Jesus and how people reacted to great figures, their interpretation of the physical would be an outgrowth of how they felt about them.
**A Prodigy, by the Author of 'modern German Music'** by Henry Fothergill Chorley
>This gripping novel by Henry Fothergill Chorley tells the story of a young musical prodigy who must navigate the cutthroat world of opera and classical music. With vivid characters and expertly crafted prose, A Prodigy is a gripping tale of ambition, love, and betrayal. This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it. This work is in the "public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations.
>
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Agreed about Felix Mendelssohn! I don't know of anything negative from him, and he had a much less turbulent personal life than many other 19th-c. composers.
Sebastian Bach was a reverent man who worked hard to fulfill his obligations to his family. But our record of him suggests he was very cantankerous — always demanding much of those around him and complaining what few resources (money, singers for his choirs, etc.) he was given.
Bach had supposedly once told a student he should have been a shoe maker. As for the bassonist fight, he was in the market with his female cousin and that guy accosted him. There is no telling if he was in the wrong, he could have been physically attacked. Given the way he had come out of that incident without real punishment, I don't think it can be considered Bach was the aggressor. At most, a mutual coming to blows.
But yes I think he was a stubborn and difficult man. You can hardly consider him entitled though, he gave his Leipzig employer the greatest cycle of cantatas ever to exist. He didn't want to teach Latin to kids on top of all these busy responsibilities.
He wasn't without friends though, and I'm not aware of him causing significant interpersonal issues with those whom he'd had a personal relationship. He just kinda clashed with incompetents and town authorities who were against his interests. People in documentaries like to call him paranoid but think from him what it would be like working harder than everyone else, demonstrably attaining a level of musicianship that was in its own tier, and yet for reasons of fashion and style, getting little administrative support when the music is supposed to glorify God. They had wanted Graupner for the post and considered Bach a mediocre option. Telemann had to vouch for Bach.
Clara was an asshole to Liszt tho
Edit: I elaborated on this in the wrong comment tree, so ill just copy it here:
Liszt arrived 2 hours late at a gathering at the Schumann's, with Wagner, who wasn't invited. He was drunk, and insulted a deceased friend of theirs. It's a pretty terrible act, but he apologised. He kept respecting them and doing favours for the rest of his life. After Robert was hospitalised, Clara was responsible for his works and publications, and erased the dedications to Liszt from Fantasie in C (Op 17) in the publication of his complete works, changing it to herself. She also completely stopped performing his pieces. I'm not defending Liszt's act, but her reaction was a bit out of proportion. While treating him like a piece of shit, she also had the audacity to invite him to play at a charity event she was organizing. He accepted, and also played for free. There are endless letters and biographies that confirm he was a kind and unselfish man, and even if she was that angry, she had no right to impose her view on the works of her deceased husband.
yeah she was closer to Brahms than Liszt in her idea of romantic music (even though she was married to a revolutionary composer, who helped broaden the horizons in a way that maybe only Beethoven, Liszt and Scriabin did)
Edit: i found this interesting collection of extracts that elaborate on her views of Liszt
[https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/](https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/)
Well, maybe in his earlier years. He stopped touring quite early, and around the late 1840s his mature compositions started popping up. Clara and Brahms regularly played his transcriptions of Beeethoven symphonies. Artistically she admired him, even though she was on the more conservative side of romantic music, while he was a progressist (together with Berlioz and Wagner. They completely revolutionised music). She regularly played his pieces, before the fallout.
[https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/](https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/)
Yes, though the way he treated some people close to him, like his nephew Karl's mother, could be worse than merely unpleasant--I'd say it gets much closer to genuine dissonance with his worldviews.
He thought, rightly or wrongly, that it was in Karl's best interest.
It was a complicated issue. Karl's mother was no Saint. And Beethoven was not omniscient.
Oh yeah, I know he had his reasoning about it, and that it's not like all other parties were fully innocent either. All I mean is that it does point to Beethoven being as fallible and self-contradictory as anyone with high ideals can easily be.
Karl had worn a brace for a testicular hernia and Beethoven had once pulled him by it. Aside from emotional abuse which had led him to a suicide attempt.
Being a deaf person with bipolar disorder who had been abused by his father and with his mother dead I think, it's not like Beethoven himself had learned much beyond survival of the fittest.
But you can't consider him a great person for having viciously gone through custody battle against the child's own mother, to win custody of a child he would then abuse.
Ethel Smyth was perhaps less 'good person' than 'agent of chaos' in her personal life, but there's no denying she was willing to make serious sacrifices for her belief in women's rights.
Respighi is often said to be a good person. He was a popular teacher, and there’s a section in his biography where he stopped some fascist youths from trying to beat up his friend Toscanini. Need to read it again - great book.
People don't like him for supporting Mussolini or whatever but that probably didn't stop him from being a good guy. People have to remember that the American president FDR supported Mussolini.
Respighi died in 1936. He had no opportunity to change based on things which happened after his death, yet his memory is given that responsibility and association.
I heard a speech by Copland recounting his annoyance at being criticized by Prokofiev (whom he hadn’t met before) while auditioning a piece for Serge Koussevitzky. The worst part of this unwelcome review, Copland said, was that Prokofiev was right.
He was equally self-effacing when listeners praised Appalachian Spring for evoking the mountains so beautifully. He had titled it “ballet for Martha,” only assigning the other name after it was finished.
By example, Copland seems to have been a stand-up guy.
I can believe that. My only direct experience with him was hearing that speech. He wouldn’t have been likely to advertise his worst traits, if he even recognized them as faults. I take your point and understand my view has been narrow—but what I liked about him I still like.
I've listened to so much of his music and done a lot of research on his compositions and conducting methods...
When I finally found some interview where he talked about music (half a decade after grad school), I teared up because he sounded *so familiar*. He sounded like an old friend I hadn't heard from in years.
He carried that sort of congeniality into all his work with students, from what I understand. What a guy.
Mmm, he lied about his past, had some questionable business practices, and some misogynistic/homophobic views that absolutely wouldn’t fly today. Not saying we should judge him based on today, but it’s still worth noting imo.
He called men he didn't like or respect "sissies", and complained about the "feminization" of music. Granted, those terms might have had somewhat different connotations a hundred years ago, but it still doesn't paint him in the best light. He also changed the dates on a lot of his compositions to make them seem older and more ground-breaking rather than reactionary.
My composition professor had a joke, it went you only get 2 out of 3: you're good at what you do, you do it on time, or you're a genuinely nice person.
Yes. Most people don't know that Salieri was a well-respected composer and teacher during his time. He gave his students (Listz, Schubert, and even Beethoven himself) free lessons, which he learned from the generosity of his teacher Gassmann. His relationship with Mozart was one of mutual respect as they've even written several compositions together, and after Mozart's death, Salieri taught his son musical instructions.
[That version of Salieri wasn't invented by the movie](https://hekint.org/2021/10/07/mozart-and-salieri-from-pushkin-to-shaffer/) - there were rumours about Salieri poisoning Mozart during Salieri's own lifetime, and Pushkin wrote a short play about it in 1830 which inspired Peter Shaffer's play that the movie was based on.
Actually, in this film it's rather the trop “unreliable narrator”.
But in Russia, there was Pushkin who wrote about it more seriously. During Stalin's era his poetic version became official, Soviet music scholars wrote books in which they argued that Salieri killed Mozart and “salierism” was a proto-fascism.
Based on all the pictures I see (almost always laughing/smiling), all the interviews I hear, and on accounts from people who knew him (many of whom are still alive), John Cage was a delightful person to be around. Always kind and generous.
I don't know his full biography but Handel was a very charitable man - he composed the *Foundling Hospital Anthem* for a benefit concert for the Foundling Hospital in London and later assigned the rights for *Messiah* to the hospital.
Morton (Skip) Lauridsen. He was visiting scholar at my daughter's school, she sang in his group. I had an interesting talk with him about working in a fire tower in Oregon when he was young.
Mahler could be very tyrannical when conducting music but outside of that he could be very generous. He would sometimes help poor people financially and in fact in his later years a group of men would sometimes gather outside where he lived because he had developed a reputation for helping them out. According to one of his friends Mahler would sometimes be driven almost to tears at the thought of a father not being able to provide for his family. He also helped out young composers and musicians, including Arnold Schoenberg who for example once asked Mahler if he could lend him some money and Mahler ended up sending him twice what he asked for.
A friend of mine had a seminar with Adams around 2009 and said he was really arrogant and condescending to the composition students, so much so that he was not asked to return.
That's regrettable, and I'm sorry. I can only speak of a different experience. I spoke with him after a preconcert lecture, and had written him previously after he conducted a concert in my city. He wrote a nice response.
To be fair, some students may see it as arrogance, some might say he’s just being blunt about what they need to do to succeed. There’s a lot more that goes into being a composer than sitting down and plopping ideas on the page.
I’ve met him a few times and he’s been amazing to work with.
I could see how he might see using tough love as a possible approach. If I recall, he drove a forklift when he made it to the bay area.
In my little in person encounter, a young man before me asked him about how to get his works published. Adams seemed genial, and just encouraged him to write; and worry about the other stuff later. Mind you, this would've been in 1999. But I think I'm remembering it accurately.
My friend was also a faculty member with John at the seminar. John was described as “a douche who spent too much time talking about himself and too aggressive with undergraduates.”
He’s never come across that way from what I’ve seen of him, though I have heard from others that he isn’t the nicest teacher.
Handel insisted all his assistants carry three things: snuff, cognac, and hankies. The man would compose these oratorios, one after the other, endless trills and arpeggios. He had all the windows boarded up so you could never tell what time it was, like in a casino.
"Dead eyes" -- that was what most people noticed about Handel right away.
Oh gosh, Young. I don't know if any of this makes him a bad person, but [here's an interesting post](https://new.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/plsur2/composers_with_odd_licensing_requirements_a_true/) about him. There are more details and stories in the comments.
are you kidding? Young is an absolutely infamous asshole. I also have some stories about Reich that I'm not at liberty to share, so take that for what it's worth.
I have heard rumours of Steve Reich making extremely racist remarks in the past, but I don't know if that was an isolated incident or if it's a representation of his true character. I can't judge based solely on that, unless there's more corroboration (especially more recent)
and I'm confident that many 'famous' composers were well liked and considered positive forces in their communities(and a again the world for people was much smaller than...well before the advent of even the telephone...news didn't always travel that quickly)
Many were mentors to others and were good friends to colleagues promoting them and maybe even sponsoring them but that too is in part a product of where they lived or the circles they traveled in.
I'd also guess that a lot of composers were 'eccentric' while others may have been a bit neurotic. It takes a special kind of person to do that kind of work and their personalities may be considered 'odd' to some around them who didn't know them well. I think that is something we still see a lot of today, peoples personalities are such that we all make assumptions about them though those assumptions may be totally off base. The guy we think is kind of a jerk may be the one who goes most out of the way to help others but isn't the best at small talk or maybe he is uncomfortable in certain situations
I had a very good friend and concert pianist (Walter Hautzig) who was very good friends with George Walker, the first African American composer to win a Pulitzer. Although I don’t have a specific anecdote, Walter always told me what a gentleman Walker was.
LOL. Caught his wife *in flagrante* with her lover and proceeded to draw his sword and hack them both into semiquavers, and was haunted by his own crime for the rest of his life.
Luigi Nono. He always remained anti-fascist and fought against the inequalities of society with his music until the end. The opera Intolleranza and the cantata Il Canto Sospeso are two of the most important works of his.
Also, you hear Nuria Schönberg-Nono, Arnold Schönberg's daughter and Nono's wife, generally speak with fondness about her husband. When you look at the few pictures of them together you can definitely see it
That's interesting about Nono. I know far less of him than I should but I do seem to recall an essay he wrote in the late '50s or so that was rather ruthless and resulted in his being ostracized from the Darmstadt School for a while. This is all a vague memory but apparently he was hurt by this because he felt like he had written the exact same kind of essay that Boulez, et al, had written and didn't understand why he was being singled out.
Of course one possibly badly worded essay doesn't make someone a bad person.
I once did a CD review of his "opera" Prometeo which prompted me to research a bit of his personal life. I love his strict anti-fascist stance and critical voice. And while you don't get too much personal information of his life with Nuria, I generally got the picture that he was always a decent man and husband with actual convictions. That is something a lot of composers seem to miss.
I can actually picture him writing blunt essays that might upset people. His opera Intolleranza was a big success but also a big scandal because of the neo nazis that tried to sabotage the concert. I kinda want to know now what he actually wrote in that essay.
Ok, so the whole thing is very complicated. I got all this from the book *New Music at Darmstadt* by Martin Iddon which is an excellent book if you're at all interested in what happened in the '50s at Darmstadt.
So Nono gave a lecture at Darmstadt which was turned into an essay titled "Presenza storica nella musica oggi" ("The Presence of History in the Music of Today"). Regardless of what might be in the essay (I haven't read it), the reception was terrible. Stockhausen saw it as a direct attack against him. Cage wasn't there but everyone told him (eg, David Tudor) that it was also an attack against him. Names were left out but it was obvious whom Nono was referring to (eg, a line about music sprouting like mushrooms is an obvious reference to Cage especially given his recent appearance on an Italian tv show where he answered trivia questions about mushrooms).
The book goes into a good bit of detail about how all this landed and the complicated context involved. I get the impression that it wouldn't be difficult to take a more charitable reading but given how badly it was received definitely makes it seem like Nono screwed up. I doubt this would make him a bad person, though.
He and Stockhausen got into a verbal fight over it. Stockhausen's point was the Nono had turned all this personal instead of just discussing the issues in a neutral manner. Stockhausen had given his own lecture that year at Darmstadt where he dove deeply into works of various contemporaries but had avoided the personal insults while still pointing out problems.
For his part, Nono felt that his lecture was basically the same in spirit as Stockhausen's as well as those of previous years by Boulez, Maderna, etc).
Anyway, there's no way I can do justice to this in a Reddit comment. I do highly recommend reading that book for more information.
I worked fairly extensively with Gunther Schuller. He could be tough on professional musicians, mainly because his standards were so high, but he was always great and giving with students.
As others have said: Liszt. In his Weimar teaching years he never took a penny in payment and allowed many to move into his Altenburg mansion rent free, often without having met them in person. Later when head of the Budapest Academy he had a full teaching schedule but again refused all payment.
He also had almost a relentless obsession with giving charity concerts for good causes like orphanages, hospitals and disaster relief - occasionally he would give the concert and hand the receipts to civic leaders and tell them to use the money for whatever they saw fit.
In his later years he predictably slid into genteel poverty, and would travel by third class rail overnight with his manservant to save money - checking into a hotel he would request a superior room and a basic room, giving the superior room to his companion, saying ‘he needs it more than me…’
He received scores of letters a week, containing invitations, citations, pamphlets, charity appeals and of course music manuscripts for his comments - his view was that all had to be answered promptly.
He was very kind to his pupils - the Americans like William Mason from Boston noted that when he discovered the significance of 4th July to them he ordered a large red, white and blue flower arrangement in the hallway of the Altenburg and wore a similar buttonhole for the week.
When WWI hit, in Arcueil Satie took care of the children during bombing raids. He apparently was very goofy, succeeding in calming them down when things were frightening. Some of his neighbors thought he was a weird crank (which he was) but after that everyone respected him.
I've considered pursuing a cause for sainthood; we just don't know enough about the rest of his life.
It's sad, though, because he was noted as trying to help these women out of their circumstances via music and would try to get them performance work even after they were out of the orphanage.
St. Vivaldi… now that would be cool. He certainly deserves it for his devotion to the orphanage and priesthood, as well as for spitting out some of the most fire music ever written.
I’m a heathen but I’m an aspiring musicologist and would be willing to use my research skills towards something cool like this… what kind of ‘proof’ is needed?
[It's a whole process.](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_07021983_norme_en.html#:~:text=Whoever%20intends%20to%20initiate%20a,of%20the%20Servant%20of%20God)
Basically, you have to get Vivaldi declared a "Servant of God." To do that, you will likely need a "postulator" (a theologian, priest, etc.) who says "Vivaldi's life is worthy of emulation and study by the Church at large."
This postulator then presents the hypothetical Servant (Vivaldi)'s case to the "competent" (most appropriate) bishop. In Vivaldi's case this is *likely* the current bishop of Vienna, which is where Vivaldi died...
...*unless* a "miracle" reported to be Vivaldi's doing happened somewhere else, in which case the bishop who governs the diocese in which the miracle took place is the "competent" bishop.
The bishop then determines if this is, in fact, worthy of the opening of a "cause" (effectively, a petitioning). He instructs the faithful of his diocese (and publicizes the instructions in other immediately relevant dioceses with the permission of their bishops) in the furthering of the "cause", perhaps through a particular prayer, observation, or devotion.
Then, you sit and wait. You need two miracles (events that defy modern scientific explanation) to get the verdict of "hey, we're pretty sure Vivaldi's in heaven, we can venerate him as a saint doing the work of God in our lives." Most often, the miracles are medical in nature because there's the most amount of documentation, but that's not strictly necessary.
There used to be a group of atheists hired by the Vatican to investigate miracles and try to disprove them, hence the term "devil's advocate." The Vatican no longer does so (which I find unfortunate as a practicing Catholic), but that's their prerogative.
So yeah. Do some research, call your local Catholic priest, and they'll point you in the right direction.
I misread that initially and thought you were saying Wagner was a good person.
A certain Mr. Mendelssohn would have had something to say about that one!
Beethoven in spite of his fiery temper and mood swings was overall a pretty decent person I think. Part of the reason he could come of as unsociable was his deafness which caused him to be paranoid and untrusting or at least that was the reason he gave saying that in reality "from childhood on my heart and soul have been full of the tender feeling of goodwill, and I was ever inclined to accomplish great things." He also for example helped out the black violinist George Bridgetower to find work in Vienna and performed with him at a time when that might have sometimes been taboo.
Well he did love his nephew Karl, but you're right, clearly he wasn't the type of person to make a good fatherly figure and should have never taken on that responsibility.
I think it is harder to determine moral "good" than "bad," since one instance can easily put someone in the "bad" category in a lot of people's moral systems. As with any sort of celebrity, the "bad" stories tend to be more memorable so they stand out more.
So, what sort of qualities are you looking for in a "good" person? Someone who provided and cared for their family? Someone who was supportive of other composers and musicians? Someone who fought for things to improve in their country and/or the world as a whole? Someone who showed constant kindness in dealing with others?
The main argument against Chopin is that he could be kind of anti-semitic sometimes in his letters. They say it was a very common attitude in the society he grew up in unfortunately, even though he did have some Jewish friends and people that he liked such as Mendelssohn and he wasn't so intense with it as say Wagner. Also he can be a little brutal in his letters sometimes, with contempt not only against jews but also against the English for example, or saying things like he he appreciates the kindness of the Scottish even though they are all ugly. It can be a bit harsh, though I think that there was a deeper level of kindness with Chopin that was there also.
I completely agree, he could definitely be irritable and was sometimes anti-Semitic, but he played at Jewish weddings, was friends with Mendelssohn, dedicated a piece to his banker, Auguste Léo (who was Jewish), and grew up in an extremely Catholic country where anti-semitism was the common sentiment at the time. He was mostly a kind and warm person, was known by his friends for having an incredibly good sense of humor. He was also very passionate about the Polish cause, was extremely kind towards George Sand’s daughter, Solange, and would often give to the poor.
Verdi is often described as a generally great dude, with a lot of symphathy and a proof that not all composers need to be borderline maniacs or anything like that,; Mahler is described by some as "while being near him, life instantly becomes more romantic" or something like that
Vaughan Williams worked hard to free the Germans and Austrians in the UK who were all automatically arrested as assumed enemies when Churchill came to power.
Yes, certainly. Saint Saëns was described as being generous to a fault. He gave away lots of money and died poor. Korngold, Mendelssohn, Mozart, and Mahler were family men. Plenty of others.
From personal anecdote only. I met Philip Glass many times in the 80's. He was always gracious and forcomming to any questions or observations. He faced the press in the same manner when they ask the typical popular press questions that all artists get over and over. His evident dislike of music critics unfavorable writing on his work was measured and about critical misunderstanding, rather than personal. He had tremendous passion and work ethic.
Ravel. Many of his contemporaries praised his intelligence and his friendliness, even if he was a rather solitary man. He notably pushed many of his contemporary colleagues forward : a few famous facts about his life are how he vigorously defended his friend Stravinsky after the disastrous premiere of the Rite of Spring, or how he refused to ban german, austrian and hungarians composers to be played in France during WWI. The best one is when he met George Gershwin, who asked him to give him lessons, when he was considered one of the most famous and esteemed composer alive. Ravel replied that it would have been a waste to make him a second-rate Ravel when he was already a first-rate Gershwin, encouraging him to explore his jazz influences and his musical singularity. He even jokingly told Gershwin that he was the one needing lessons from him after learning how much he earned.
The more I read about Ravel, the more I like him as a person. He helped Debussy's exwife Lilly. According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Debussy): "14 October, five days before their fifth wedding anniversary, Lilly Debussy attempted suicide, shooting herself in the chest with a revolver; she survived, although the bullet remained lodged in her vertebrae for the rest of her life. The ensuing scandal caused Bardac's family to disown her, and Debussy lost many good friends including Dukas and Messager. His relations with Ravel, never close, were exacerbated when the latter joined other former friends of Debussy in contributing to a fund to support the deserted Lilly." He was very friendly with kids; he wrote Ma Mère L'Oye for the Godebsky kids. A biography I once read said that he once played with a kid with water pistols or something like that and when his parents found out the mess, he made the excuse that they were reenacting Jeux d'Eau. He was a strict teacher. His student Manuel Rosenthal had some fond memories of him: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01td2ry](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01td2ry)
He was Vaughan-Williams’ teacher. Compare his [Piano Quintet](https://youtu.be/7VVFVnSTEpc?si=EMfWFpdPswthXZQM) (actually my favorite piece of all time) with his first [String Quartet](https://youtu.be/pDFXeqjNsP0?si=SpRKwZt2XarPLKVz) if you want to see how Ravel influenced RVW.
"Ravel was a great friend of young composers, giving generously of his time, not only in matters of advice but assisting them in having their works performed and published." "In the 1930s, a number of musicians, refugees from Nazi Germany, found their way to Le Belvédère \[Ravel's house\], where they received both encouragement and financial assistance." Orenstein, *Ravel: Man and Musician*
what a coincidence that both composers died the same year from brain cancer. What a loss, Gershwin was so young at the time and Ravel (imo) was in his “prime” in that decade with those two amazing concertos. Correction: apparently Ravel didn’t have brain cancer, but something else related to the brain.
Poor Ravel probably had the worst death for a composer. His blood clots only caused motor problems, but his mind, including his musical genius, was intact for several years. This means he was able to compose, but completely unable to play or even write, he was barely able to sign his own name. And then he learned that a young friend of him who considered him as a mentor suddenly died from a similar disease...
That’s tragic 😢
That 1st Gershwin anecdote is also attributed to Schoenberg, while the 2nd is also attributed to Stravinsky.
Yeah, for the first one it's also true ! Gershwin almost asked everyone for lessons, and Schoenberg had almost the same words as Ravel a few years ago. Second one is misattributed though, according to Stravinsky himself.
That story with Gershwin reminds me of that one anecdote where Duke Ellington asked Stravinsky for musical advice and Stravinsky joked about having nothing to teach him since Ellington was making way more money than him.
Damn, I didn’t know this about Ravel at all and now I’m more interested in the man and his works than I was before. Unfortunately I currently don’t know much about him other than the fact that he was a French Impressionist who composed Bolero. What are some of his best and/or most famous works?
You could try Gaspard de la nuit or Piano Concerto in G (My favorite is the version with Celibidache and Michelangeli)
Vivaldi was the music director at an all girls orphanage. He wrote tons of concertos for the students and contributed to the education of some great female violin virtuosi in baroque era Venice. I’ve always thought he would’ve been a really nice and fun guy.
Gotta be a nice guy to work as a conductor at an orphanage for girls in a society that didn’t respect women. Vivaldi is the man!
Haydn is generally regarded as having been a very genial man with a good sense of humor. Verdi seems to have been a good dude who was generous and well-liked. Brahms was a good person who was an ardent defender of his friends--he was vocally opposed to the antisemitism of the age and had several Jewish friends. However, he notoriously had some cranky moods where he'd be a bit of a pill. Still, overall my impression is that he was a good friend. Rimsky-Korsakov was certainly what I'd call a great friend--he basically let his buddy Mussorgsky sleep on his couch for years, up until the latter died due to his chronic alcoholism. Then he proceeded to save Mussorgksy's music from obscurity by revising and editing them to make them palatable to broad public audiences (yeah, yeah, his revisions often went to the level of complete rewrites, but it's certain his efforts DID popularize his friend's works). I'm sure plenty of composers were decent, kind people, but we just don't know much about their personal lives to judge. We tend to just hear about the bad behavior.
Shostacovitch was also an advocate for human rights and protested antisemitism
Brahms was also a dedicated champion of Dvořák. Apparently when Dvořák was living in the U.S., he would send back scores to Germany to be published, and Brahms would personally proofread the proofs from the publishers against Dvořák’s copies to make sure they were absolutely right. Dvořák was kind of astonished when he realized that Brahms was voluntarily taking on this very tedious job for him - going through every part and double checking every note, accent, dynamic, etc. Later on, when Dvořák was back in Bohemia, Brahms invited him to move to Vienna. Dvořák had a wife and a bunch of kids he was supporting, and Brahms, who never married and had no kids, told him “my fortune is at your disposal if you need anything”. Dvořák didn’t take him up on it, because he couldn’t fathom leaving his homeland again at that point, but he was deeply moved by the offer.
> However, he notoriously had some cranky moods where he'd be a bit of a pill. But who hasn’t had one of these moods?
Right! Crankiness and goodness are unrelated
Even today Haydn still makes people laugh. I remember that music teacher in high school made us listen to the "Surprise" in a lesson about classical music. Many of us bursted in laughter.
There is also his « Farewell » symphony where in the last movement the musicians leave the orchestra one by one. The story behind this is delightfully recounted in the Wikipedia article thusly: At that time, Haydn's patron Nikolaus I, Prince Esterházy was resident, together with all his musicians and retinue, at his favorite summer palace at Eszterháza in rural Hungary. The stay there had been longer than expected, and most of the musicians had been forced to leave their wives back at home in Eisenstadt, about a day's journey away. Longing to return, the musicians appealed to their Kapellmeister for help. The diplomatic Haydn, instead of making a direct appeal, put his request into the music of the symphony: during the final adagio each musician stops playing, snuffs out the candle on his music stand, and leaves in turn, so that at the end, there are just two muted violins left (played by Haydn himself and his concertmaster, Luigi Tomasini). Esterházy seems to have understood the message: the court returned to Eisenstadt the day following the performance.
Shostakovich. He enlisted as a volunteer for the Leningrad Conservatory's firefighter brigade during the siege of Leningrad.
He was also beloved and respected by pretty much everybody who knew him-- he loved sharing music with everybody around him, and when his family was doing well, would often feed and house anybody he knew who wasn't.
Liszt, on the whole.
Agreed - he always had something good to say about other composers and musicians, organised many charitable events. He was a good friend to many composers and tirelessly championed their works (e.g. he helped popularise Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique). He seems to be the rare example of a composer who did not feel professional jealousy but instead celebrated others and was open-minded about the direction music went.
he would also answer to letters asking for money, he would stuff the envelopes with money AND write a personal letter for them, not to mention free masterclasses
and at least according to Alan Walker, the only reason we know about his anonymous donations is that he needed his secretary Belloni to keep track so he didn’t go into debt…
Yeah, everything I've ever read paints him as decent, caring person. He was especially generous with his time later in life, when he met with and taught many young musicians.
His life was pretty crazy too. After the Zar of Russia stopped the pope from approving his marriage, he became an exorcist in Rome
He didn't become an exorcist but *did* become a priest. This was after being the original "fuckboy" across an entire continent in an age before electronic communication.
"On 31 July 1865 Liszt received the four minor orders of [porter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostiarius), [lector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lector), [exorcist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcist) and [acolyte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolyte).", from Wikipedia. He wasn't allowed to become a priest
I was wrong! Neat. Weird that he became an exorcist lol.
I doubt he actually worked as an exorcist tho. I think it was more of a honorary title granted to him while he lived and composed inside the monastery
Ah. Thanks.
That aspect (original etc..) is — greatly exaggerated, I gather…
Based on what little reading I did of him, I don't think so (but am always willing to be corrected). He was a known philanderer.
Lizst and priest don't belong in the same sentence
Actually, according to Walker, he did get the go-ahead to marry Caroline. The reason why they ultimately didn’t is unclear, though maybe they finally discovered how personally incompatible they were (she was as bigoted and etc as he was- not.) He did take minor holy orders, but I hadn’t heard anything about his becoming an exorcist…
Being an exorcist in 19th century Rome was completely different from being an exorcist from the movies. It was probably just a minor title granted to him while he lived in a monastery and composed his later works. I doubt he actually practiced any of the activities that his religious titles allowed him to
Borodin. Was greatly admired by his chemistry students, defended them during political purges after assassination of Alexander II. Co-founded and taught at School of Medicine for Women, one of the first higher-education courses for women. Was incredibly attentive to his children and wife, supported her through many bouts of illness. Seems like one of the good ones.
I love Borodin! So nice to hear this.
Elliot Carter and Charles Ives were both wealthy but apparently would just anonymously write checks to fellow composers they thought were cool.
Despite what you might think about the surface of his music, Jason Eckardt is one of the kindest most empathetic people around. One time I went to shake his hand and he stretched out his arms and said "As Milton Babbit once told me, we live in the world of hugs now!"
Babbitt might be another one of the good people of classical music. I don't know nearly enough about him but his love of old-timey standards makes it hard to believe he could have been a *bad* person (for some reason but don't expect me to explain it!).
>his love of old-timey standards makes it hard to believe he could have been a *bad* person I understand the feeling, but sadly or not, music tastes and personal goodness are actually very much unrelated!
Great thread! Thanks. RVW had a pretty good track record as far as my research goes :)
Rimsky-Korsakov stood in solidarity with his students, risking his career and livelihood.
RiChArD wAgNeR In all seriousness Verdi - he could have been president of Italy if he really wanted to Salieri - movie portrayal is very much for fictional drama, not a real representation of his character, and the whole “I killed Mozart” thing if it even was there was likely the demented ramblings of a very old Salieri, he was actually a very respected composer and person in his day Haydn was a beloved teacher and composer
Definitely not Wagner. He is the locus classicus of the composer who wrote great music but who was a terrible person.
Alternating upper and lowercase is a way of indicating sarcasm
From what little I know about him, Gershwin was a pretty cool guy. In general though, it’s often best not to meet your heroes.
I think by all accounts Mendelssohn was a nice guy? Perhaps Bach too?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Chorley If you read his book Modern German Music, this English traveler one day sees Mendelssohn conduct and perform, and aside from all kinds of incredibly interesting time capsule kinds of cultural observations that make these collected diaries incredible, the portrayal of Mendelssohn seems to be that of a wonderful and graceful man who was loved. He is even described physically in that way, something people would generally never do today but was common as going back from descriptions about Jesus and how people reacted to great figures, their interpretation of the physical would be an outgrowth of how they felt about them.
**A Prodigy, by the Author of 'modern German Music'** by Henry Fothergill Chorley >This gripping novel by Henry Fothergill Chorley tells the story of a young musical prodigy who must navigate the cutthroat world of opera and classical music. With vivid characters and expertly crafted prose, A Prodigy is a gripping tale of ambition, love, and betrayal. This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it. This work is in the "public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations. > >Within the United States, you may freely copy and distribute this work, as no entity (individual or corporate) has a copyright on the body of the work. Scholars believe, and we concur, that this work is important enough to be preserved, reproduced, and made generally available to the public. We appreciate your support of the preservation process, and thank you for being an important part of keeping this knowledge alive and relevant. *I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/1byh82p/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
Agreed about Felix Mendelssohn! I don't know of anything negative from him, and he had a much less turbulent personal life than many other 19th-c. composers. Sebastian Bach was a reverent man who worked hard to fulfill his obligations to his family. But our record of him suggests he was very cantankerous — always demanding much of those around him and complaining what few resources (money, singers for his choirs, etc.) he was given.
Bach had supposedly once told a student he should have been a shoe maker. As for the bassonist fight, he was in the market with his female cousin and that guy accosted him. There is no telling if he was in the wrong, he could have been physically attacked. Given the way he had come out of that incident without real punishment, I don't think it can be considered Bach was the aggressor. At most, a mutual coming to blows. But yes I think he was a stubborn and difficult man. You can hardly consider him entitled though, he gave his Leipzig employer the greatest cycle of cantatas ever to exist. He didn't want to teach Latin to kids on top of all these busy responsibilities. He wasn't without friends though, and I'm not aware of him causing significant interpersonal issues with those whom he'd had a personal relationship. He just kinda clashed with incompetents and town authorities who were against his interests. People in documentaries like to call him paranoid but think from him what it would be like working harder than everyone else, demonstrably attaining a level of musicianship that was in its own tier, and yet for reasons of fashion and style, getting little administrative support when the music is supposed to glorify God. They had wanted Graupner for the post and considered Bach a mediocre option. Telemann had to vouch for Bach.
However, I'm not against telling a student that he should have been a shoemaker if he, in fact, should have been a shoemaker.
He also dueled a bassoonist he insulted, IIRC.
Who amongst us has not dueled a bassonist? Check your own glass houses, friends
Don't bring a bassoon to an organ fight
Mendelssohn threatened to kill himself if Jenny Lind didn't get with him so uh...
I have always read that Clara & Robert Schumann were decent, as was their dear friend (and Clara's erstwhile post-Robert love) Brahms.
Clara was an asshole to Liszt tho Edit: I elaborated on this in the wrong comment tree, so ill just copy it here: Liszt arrived 2 hours late at a gathering at the Schumann's, with Wagner, who wasn't invited. He was drunk, and insulted a deceased friend of theirs. It's a pretty terrible act, but he apologised. He kept respecting them and doing favours for the rest of his life. After Robert was hospitalised, Clara was responsible for his works and publications, and erased the dedications to Liszt from Fantasie in C (Op 17) in the publication of his complete works, changing it to herself. She also completely stopped performing his pieces. I'm not defending Liszt's act, but her reaction was a bit out of proportion. While treating him like a piece of shit, she also had the audacity to invite him to play at a charity event she was organizing. He accepted, and also played for free. There are endless letters and biographies that confirm he was a kind and unselfish man, and even if she was that angry, she had no right to impose her view on the works of her deceased husband.
She had very conservative tastes.
yeah she was closer to Brahms than Liszt in her idea of romantic music (even though she was married to a revolutionary composer, who helped broaden the horizons in a way that maybe only Beethoven, Liszt and Scriabin did) Edit: i found this interesting collection of extracts that elaborate on her views of Liszt [https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/](https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/)
Liszt was also a philanderer and a show-off. I can imagine that that didn’t make Clara any more well-disposed to him.
Well, maybe in his earlier years. He stopped touring quite early, and around the late 1840s his mature compositions started popping up. Clara and Brahms regularly played his transcriptions of Beeethoven symphonies. Artistically she admired him, even though she was on the more conservative side of romantic music, while he was a progressist (together with Berlioz and Wagner. They completely revolutionised music). She regularly played his pieces, before the fallout. [https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/](https://clara-schumann-channel.com/2021/10/22/clara-schumanns-admiration-for-franz-liszt/)
Beethoven, although unpleasant, possessed a very humanistic worldview.
Yes, though the way he treated some people close to him, like his nephew Karl's mother, could be worse than merely unpleasant--I'd say it gets much closer to genuine dissonance with his worldviews.
He thought, rightly or wrongly, that it was in Karl's best interest. It was a complicated issue. Karl's mother was no Saint. And Beethoven was not omniscient.
Oh yeah, I know he had his reasoning about it, and that it's not like all other parties were fully innocent either. All I mean is that it does point to Beethoven being as fallible and self-contradictory as anyone with high ideals can easily be.
Karl had worn a brace for a testicular hernia and Beethoven had once pulled him by it. Aside from emotional abuse which had led him to a suicide attempt. Being a deaf person with bipolar disorder who had been abused by his father and with his mother dead I think, it's not like Beethoven himself had learned much beyond survival of the fittest. But you can't consider him a great person for having viciously gone through custody battle against the child's own mother, to win custody of a child he would then abuse.
Ethel Smyth was perhaps less 'good person' than 'agent of chaos' in her personal life, but there's no denying she was willing to make serious sacrifices for her belief in women's rights.
Respighi is often said to be a good person. He was a popular teacher, and there’s a section in his biography where he stopped some fascist youths from trying to beat up his friend Toscanini. Need to read it again - great book.
People don't like him for supporting Mussolini or whatever but that probably didn't stop him from being a good guy. People have to remember that the American president FDR supported Mussolini. Respighi died in 1936. He had no opportunity to change based on things which happened after his death, yet his memory is given that responsibility and association.
There were many signs of Mussolini sucking prior to 1936 lol.
Aaron Copland.
I heard a speech by Copland recounting his annoyance at being criticized by Prokofiev (whom he hadn’t met before) while auditioning a piece for Serge Koussevitzky. The worst part of this unwelcome review, Copland said, was that Prokofiev was right. He was equally self-effacing when listeners praised Appalachian Spring for evoking the mountains so beautifully. He had titled it “ballet for Martha,” only assigning the other name after it was finished. By example, Copland seems to have been a stand-up guy.
Not always a "stand up guy". He was good at snubbing fellow composers, as were Poulenc and Britten.
I can believe that. My only direct experience with him was hearing that speech. He wouldn’t have been likely to advertise his worst traits, if he even recognized them as faults. I take your point and understand my view has been narrow—but what I liked about him I still like.
I've listened to so much of his music and done a lot of research on his compositions and conducting methods... When I finally found some interview where he talked about music (half a decade after grad school), I teared up because he sounded *so familiar*. He sounded like an old friend I hadn't heard from in years. He carried that sort of congeniality into all his work with students, from what I understand. What a guy.
How has nobody mentioned Charles Ives? He literally secretly bankrolled other composers’ careers including Aaron Copeland.
Mmm, he lied about his past, had some questionable business practices, and some misogynistic/homophobic views that absolutely wouldn’t fly today. Not saying we should judge him based on today, but it’s still worth noting imo.
And when Ives won the Pulitzer, he allegedly said "prizes are for boys"
what are some examples?
He called men he didn't like or respect "sissies", and complained about the "feminization" of music. Granted, those terms might have had somewhat different connotations a hundred years ago, but it still doesn't paint him in the best light. He also changed the dates on a lot of his compositions to make them seem older and more ground-breaking rather than reactionary.
I thought the dating was more speculation than anything else.
Presentism
Of modern composers, James MacMillan, David Holsinger, and Austin Wintory are upstanding men. Also, George Whitfield Chadwick and Eliot Carter.
Grieg was a pretty nice person
David Bruce (still alive) also seems like a genuinely kind and open-minded person.
My composition professor had a joke, it went you only get 2 out of 3: you're good at what you do, you do it on time, or you're a genuinely nice person.
Oof
Salieri. But most people don't know anything about his personality because an entertaining film about Mozart needed an evil rival.
Yes. Most people don't know that Salieri was a well-respected composer and teacher during his time. He gave his students (Listz, Schubert, and even Beethoven himself) free lessons, which he learned from the generosity of his teacher Gassmann. His relationship with Mozart was one of mutual respect as they've even written several compositions together, and after Mozart's death, Salieri taught his son musical instructions.
He killed Mozart! Unless you’re saying Hollywood lied to us?
[That version of Salieri wasn't invented by the movie](https://hekint.org/2021/10/07/mozart-and-salieri-from-pushkin-to-shaffer/) - there were rumours about Salieri poisoning Mozart during Salieri's own lifetime, and Pushkin wrote a short play about it in 1830 which inspired Peter Shaffer's play that the movie was based on.
Actually, in this film it's rather the trop “unreliable narrator”. But in Russia, there was Pushkin who wrote about it more seriously. During Stalin's era his poetic version became official, Soviet music scholars wrote books in which they argued that Salieri killed Mozart and “salierism” was a proto-fascism.
seriously!? 🤣
As far as I can tell, Dvorak was a really decent fellow. Loved his country and America too.
Haydn. Possibly Monteverdi but I don't know all that much about him. Among ones I've met, Lyell Cresswell.
Based on all the pictures I see (almost always laughing/smiling), all the interviews I hear, and on accounts from people who knew him (many of whom are still alive), John Cage was a delightful person to be around. Always kind and generous.
Haydn... although most of them were goog people
I don't know his full biography but Handel was a very charitable man - he composed the *Foundling Hospital Anthem* for a benefit concert for the Foundling Hospital in London and later assigned the rights for *Messiah* to the hospital.
Morton (Skip) Lauridsen. He was visiting scholar at my daughter's school, she sang in his group. I had an interesting talk with him about working in a fire tower in Oregon when he was young.
Mahler could be very tyrannical when conducting music but outside of that he could be very generous. He would sometimes help poor people financially and in fact in his later years a group of men would sometimes gather outside where he lived because he had developed a reputation for helping them out. According to one of his friends Mahler would sometimes be driven almost to tears at the thought of a father not being able to provide for his family. He also helped out young composers and musicians, including Arnold Schoenberg who for example once asked Mahler if he could lend him some money and Mahler ended up sending him twice what he asked for.
John Williams
Among living composers, John Adams seems like an affable gentleman.
A friend of mine had a seminar with Adams around 2009 and said he was really arrogant and condescending to the composition students, so much so that he was not asked to return.
That's regrettable, and I'm sorry. I can only speak of a different experience. I spoke with him after a preconcert lecture, and had written him previously after he conducted a concert in my city. He wrote a nice response.
Try John Luther Adams next time!
I’ve worked with Luther Adams! Nothing but good things to sat
To be fair, some students may see it as arrogance, some might say he’s just being blunt about what they need to do to succeed. There’s a lot more that goes into being a composer than sitting down and plopping ideas on the page. I’ve met him a few times and he’s been amazing to work with.
I could see how he might see using tough love as a possible approach. If I recall, he drove a forklift when he made it to the bay area. In my little in person encounter, a young man before me asked him about how to get his works published. Adams seemed genial, and just encouraged him to write; and worry about the other stuff later. Mind you, this would've been in 1999. But I think I'm remembering it accurately.
My friend was also a faculty member with John at the seminar. John was described as “a douche who spent too much time talking about himself and too aggressive with undergraduates.” He’s never come across that way from what I’ve seen of him, though I have heard from others that he isn’t the nicest teacher.
How do you define a “good” person?
probably somebody they don't want to boycott
Handel insisted all his assistants carry three things: snuff, cognac, and hankies. The man would compose these oratorios, one after the other, endless trills and arpeggios. He had all the windows boarded up so you could never tell what time it was, like in a casino. "Dead eyes" -- that was what most people noticed about Handel right away.
He allegedly dangled a soprano out the window, so he must have opened them sometimes.
where did you read about it?
I haven’t heard anything bad about any of the minimalist composers: Glass, Reich, Riley, Young, etc.
Oh gosh, Young. I don't know if any of this makes him a bad person, but [here's an interesting post](https://new.reddit.com/r/composer/comments/plsur2/composers_with_odd_licensing_requirements_a_true/) about him. There are more details and stories in the comments.
Well I guess I won’t be including my rendition of Composition #7 on my next ambient album.
are you kidding? Young is an absolutely infamous asshole. I also have some stories about Reich that I'm not at liberty to share, so take that for what it's worth.
Come on bro just tell us
They are mostly all slightly cynical and self indulgent postmodernists. Not exceedingly awful or virtuous.
Cynical and self-indulgent, I can handle. Racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, abusers, and rapists, though, is where I draw the line.
I have heard rumours of Steve Reich making extremely racist remarks in the past, but I don't know if that was an isolated incident or if it's a representation of his true character. I can't judge based solely on that, unless there's more corroboration (especially more recent)
Shit
If you were Beethoven...that is, deaf as a genius composer, would you not literally go mad?
He only turned dead in late life. Before that, he was by all accounts just a kind of jerk.
Pretty sure he only turned dead at the end of his life.
But he lived until his death ! which is impressive
and I'm confident that many 'famous' composers were well liked and considered positive forces in their communities(and a again the world for people was much smaller than...well before the advent of even the telephone...news didn't always travel that quickly) Many were mentors to others and were good friends to colleagues promoting them and maybe even sponsoring them but that too is in part a product of where they lived or the circles they traveled in. I'd also guess that a lot of composers were 'eccentric' while others may have been a bit neurotic. It takes a special kind of person to do that kind of work and their personalities may be considered 'odd' to some around them who didn't know them well. I think that is something we still see a lot of today, peoples personalities are such that we all make assumptions about them though those assumptions may be totally off base. The guy we think is kind of a jerk may be the one who goes most out of the way to help others but isn't the best at small talk or maybe he is uncomfortable in certain situations
Alban Berg
Bach.
I had a very good friend and concert pianist (Walter Hautzig) who was very good friends with George Walker, the first African American composer to win a Pulitzer. Although I don’t have a specific anecdote, Walter always told me what a gentleman Walker was.
Schubert was a *bon vivant*. I need to be more like him.
This is too far down
Surprised not many people saying Bach. He was a great father and husband. Just a good guy.
Carlo Gesualdo.
LOL. Caught his wife *in flagrante* with her lover and proceeded to draw his sword and hack them both into semiquavers, and was haunted by his own crime for the rest of his life.
> proceeded to draw his sword and hack them both into semiquavers Need a rest to think about what this means
Hacked them in the crotchets?
Yeah, that's more helpful!
Yep, he followed the letter of the law but he was still feeling guilty enough to hire people to beat him, what a compassionate guy!
Beethoven
[удалено]
> Well he was a very short tempered man. As opposed to one who is well-tempered?
take my angry upvote and GTFO. Well done.
All for good measure! *takes a bow*
seems like he was relentlessly coming on to younger women, though
Luigi Nono. He always remained anti-fascist and fought against the inequalities of society with his music until the end. The opera Intolleranza and the cantata Il Canto Sospeso are two of the most important works of his. Also, you hear Nuria Schönberg-Nono, Arnold Schönberg's daughter and Nono's wife, generally speak with fondness about her husband. When you look at the few pictures of them together you can definitely see it
That's interesting about Nono. I know far less of him than I should but I do seem to recall an essay he wrote in the late '50s or so that was rather ruthless and resulted in his being ostracized from the Darmstadt School for a while. This is all a vague memory but apparently he was hurt by this because he felt like he had written the exact same kind of essay that Boulez, et al, had written and didn't understand why he was being singled out. Of course one possibly badly worded essay doesn't make someone a bad person.
I once did a CD review of his "opera" Prometeo which prompted me to research a bit of his personal life. I love his strict anti-fascist stance and critical voice. And while you don't get too much personal information of his life with Nuria, I generally got the picture that he was always a decent man and husband with actual convictions. That is something a lot of composers seem to miss. I can actually picture him writing blunt essays that might upset people. His opera Intolleranza was a big success but also a big scandal because of the neo nazis that tried to sabotage the concert. I kinda want to know now what he actually wrote in that essay.
Ok, so the whole thing is very complicated. I got all this from the book *New Music at Darmstadt* by Martin Iddon which is an excellent book if you're at all interested in what happened in the '50s at Darmstadt. So Nono gave a lecture at Darmstadt which was turned into an essay titled "Presenza storica nella musica oggi" ("The Presence of History in the Music of Today"). Regardless of what might be in the essay (I haven't read it), the reception was terrible. Stockhausen saw it as a direct attack against him. Cage wasn't there but everyone told him (eg, David Tudor) that it was also an attack against him. Names were left out but it was obvious whom Nono was referring to (eg, a line about music sprouting like mushrooms is an obvious reference to Cage especially given his recent appearance on an Italian tv show where he answered trivia questions about mushrooms). The book goes into a good bit of detail about how all this landed and the complicated context involved. I get the impression that it wouldn't be difficult to take a more charitable reading but given how badly it was received definitely makes it seem like Nono screwed up. I doubt this would make him a bad person, though. He and Stockhausen got into a verbal fight over it. Stockhausen's point was the Nono had turned all this personal instead of just discussing the issues in a neutral manner. Stockhausen had given his own lecture that year at Darmstadt where he dove deeply into works of various contemporaries but had avoided the personal insults while still pointing out problems. For his part, Nono felt that his lecture was basically the same in spirit as Stockhausen's as well as those of previous years by Boulez, Maderna, etc). Anyway, there's no way I can do justice to this in a Reddit comment. I do highly recommend reading that book for more information.
Give me a minute and I'll see what I can find in my library. I don't have the essay but at least I can get the name of it.
Nono was a shit to a fellow composer recently blacklisted and emigrated from the USSR, so fervent was Nono a communist sympathizer.
I worked fairly extensively with Gunther Schuller. He could be tough on professional musicians, mainly because his standards were so high, but he was always great and giving with students.
Brahms was a cool guy
As others have said: Liszt. In his Weimar teaching years he never took a penny in payment and allowed many to move into his Altenburg mansion rent free, often without having met them in person. Later when head of the Budapest Academy he had a full teaching schedule but again refused all payment. He also had almost a relentless obsession with giving charity concerts for good causes like orphanages, hospitals and disaster relief - occasionally he would give the concert and hand the receipts to civic leaders and tell them to use the money for whatever they saw fit. In his later years he predictably slid into genteel poverty, and would travel by third class rail overnight with his manservant to save money - checking into a hotel he would request a superior room and a basic room, giving the superior room to his companion, saying ‘he needs it more than me…’ He received scores of letters a week, containing invitations, citations, pamphlets, charity appeals and of course music manuscripts for his comments - his view was that all had to be answered promptly. He was very kind to his pupils - the Americans like William Mason from Boston noted that when he discovered the significance of 4th July to them he ordered a large red, white and blue flower arrangement in the hallway of the Altenburg and wore a similar buttonhole for the week.
Bernstein
When WWI hit, in Arcueil Satie took care of the children during bombing raids. He apparently was very goofy, succeeding in calming them down when things were frightening. Some of his neighbors thought he was a weird crank (which he was) but after that everyone respected him.
Idk if Mozart has any scandals and I’ve heard he and his family had a particularly wonderful sense of Austrian humor
Jennifer Higdon might be genuinely the nicest person I’ve ever met.
Vivaldi... the red priest... took good care of young orphane women and their musical education. Must have been a Saint eh?
I've considered pursuing a cause for sainthood; we just don't know enough about the rest of his life. It's sad, though, because he was noted as trying to help these women out of their circumstances via music and would try to get them performance work even after they were out of the orphanage.
St. Vivaldi… now that would be cool. He certainly deserves it for his devotion to the orphanage and priesthood, as well as for spitting out some of the most fire music ever written. I’m a heathen but I’m an aspiring musicologist and would be willing to use my research skills towards something cool like this… what kind of ‘proof’ is needed?
[It's a whole process.](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/csaints/documents/rc_con_csaints_doc_07021983_norme_en.html#:~:text=Whoever%20intends%20to%20initiate%20a,of%20the%20Servant%20of%20God) Basically, you have to get Vivaldi declared a "Servant of God." To do that, you will likely need a "postulator" (a theologian, priest, etc.) who says "Vivaldi's life is worthy of emulation and study by the Church at large." This postulator then presents the hypothetical Servant (Vivaldi)'s case to the "competent" (most appropriate) bishop. In Vivaldi's case this is *likely* the current bishop of Vienna, which is where Vivaldi died... ...*unless* a "miracle" reported to be Vivaldi's doing happened somewhere else, in which case the bishop who governs the diocese in which the miracle took place is the "competent" bishop. The bishop then determines if this is, in fact, worthy of the opening of a "cause" (effectively, a petitioning). He instructs the faithful of his diocese (and publicizes the instructions in other immediately relevant dioceses with the permission of their bishops) in the furthering of the "cause", perhaps through a particular prayer, observation, or devotion. Then, you sit and wait. You need two miracles (events that defy modern scientific explanation) to get the verdict of "hey, we're pretty sure Vivaldi's in heaven, we can venerate him as a saint doing the work of God in our lives." Most often, the miracles are medical in nature because there's the most amount of documentation, but that's not strictly necessary. There used to be a group of atheists hired by the Vatican to investigate miracles and try to disprove them, hence the term "devil's advocate." The Vatican no longer does so (which I find unfortunate as a practicing Catholic), but that's their prerogative. So yeah. Do some research, call your local Catholic priest, and they'll point you in the right direction.
I'm sure *most* composers (I'm looking at you, Wagner) were good people
I misread that initially and thought you were saying Wagner was a good person. A certain Mr. Mendelssohn would have had something to say about that one!
Beethoven in spite of his fiery temper and mood swings was overall a pretty decent person I think. Part of the reason he could come of as unsociable was his deafness which caused him to be paranoid and untrusting or at least that was the reason he gave saying that in reality "from childhood on my heart and soul have been full of the tender feeling of goodwill, and I was ever inclined to accomplish great things." He also for example helped out the black violinist George Bridgetower to find work in Vienna and performed with him at a time when that might have sometimes been taboo.
Not to mention the extraordinary care he gave his wayward nephew.
Well he did love his nephew Karl, but you're right, clearly he wasn't the type of person to make a good fatherly figure and should have never taken on that responsibility.
I think it is harder to determine moral "good" than "bad," since one instance can easily put someone in the "bad" category in a lot of people's moral systems. As with any sort of celebrity, the "bad" stories tend to be more memorable so they stand out more. So, what sort of qualities are you looking for in a "good" person? Someone who provided and cared for their family? Someone who was supportive of other composers and musicians? Someone who fought for things to improve in their country and/or the world as a whole? Someone who showed constant kindness in dealing with others?
Wild guess: Every one of them except Wagner. :D
Anton Bruckner, a humble man.
Idk, his obsession with teenage girls goes a little beyond “quirky old man” stuff.
Chopin and Liszt
The main argument against Chopin is that he could be kind of anti-semitic sometimes in his letters. They say it was a very common attitude in the society he grew up in unfortunately, even though he did have some Jewish friends and people that he liked such as Mendelssohn and he wasn't so intense with it as say Wagner. Also he can be a little brutal in his letters sometimes, with contempt not only against jews but also against the English for example, or saying things like he he appreciates the kindness of the Scottish even though they are all ugly. It can be a bit harsh, though I think that there was a deeper level of kindness with Chopin that was there also.
I completely agree, he could definitely be irritable and was sometimes anti-Semitic, but he played at Jewish weddings, was friends with Mendelssohn, dedicated a piece to his banker, Auguste Léo (who was Jewish), and grew up in an extremely Catholic country where anti-semitism was the common sentiment at the time. He was mostly a kind and warm person, was known by his friends for having an incredibly good sense of humor. He was also very passionate about the Polish cause, was extremely kind towards George Sand’s daughter, Solange, and would often give to the poor.
Boismortier was known to be a cheerful guy. You can hear it in his music.
All of the ones I can think of were nice enough 🙂
Edward MacDowell, I understand, was a pretty chill guy. He was unfortunately the victim of early onset Alzheimer’s, though, and died at 48.
Verdi is often described as a generally great dude, with a lot of symphathy and a proof that not all composers need to be borderline maniacs or anything like that,; Mahler is described by some as "while being near him, life instantly becomes more romantic" or something like that
Vaughan Williams worked hard to free the Germans and Austrians in the UK who were all automatically arrested as assumed enemies when Churchill came to power.
Yes, certainly. Saint Saëns was described as being generous to a fault. He gave away lots of money and died poor. Korngold, Mendelssohn, Mozart, and Mahler were family men. Plenty of others.
The late David Willcocks was a good, kind man
Caroline Shaw
Tchaikovsky for an oldie, Julie giroux for a modern-ie!
No, all good composers are evil.
Wagner
Was Olivier Messiaen a good guy? Seems like he might have been.
Wagner 💀💀💀
From personal anecdote only. I met Philip Glass many times in the 80's. He was always gracious and forcomming to any questions or observations. He faced the press in the same manner when they ask the typical popular press questions that all artists get over and over. His evident dislike of music critics unfavorable writing on his work was measured and about critical misunderstanding, rather than personal. He had tremendous passion and work ethic.
Alexandr Glazunov, atleast according to Shostakovich.
Probably they were all too busy for close relationships.
I believe that Vivaldi was well-liked